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• Refining the administrator elections process
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Andrew Nikolić

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I might as well report myself - In this BLP - Andrew Nikolić - I am trying to present a NPOV addition after a complaint at the BLP noticeboard. I am over 3RR and if users keep removing without good reason I am going to keep replacing this supportive comment to this BLP. Its a cited supportive comment from the President of the Liberal Party - Can the Admin that blocks me please explain the policy reason for the cited content removal. Thanks - Youreallycan 17:47, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• An admin who blocks you or your counterpart is, as you well know, under no obligation to explain why the other's edit is better than yours. You're both over the line, you should both be blocked. Or you can both start acting like adults. Drmies (talk) 17:53, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• As sympathetic as I am with YRC's view on the substance of the dispute, the conduct on the Nikolic Talk page is way out of line (accusations of libel, sock puppetry, etc.), and, not surprisingly, very little real progress is being made on the dispute. The irony of creating section headers called "Back on topic" and then quickly regressing into the sniping is stark.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:58, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• Please do note the statement above: "if users keep removing without good reason I am going to keep replacing this supportive comment to this BLP" -- it couldn't possibly be clearer that this editor intends to continue edit-warring. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:36, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Bah, Nomo., you're a provocateur who racks up warnings and blocks like notches on his belt or her purse strap, and the worst example of Jimbo Wales' fear that it was going to be Usenet. Have you ever created anything of value for the project at all? Colton Cosmic (talk) 21:01, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

?? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:23, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I wonder who you are, Colton Cosmic. The comments I've seen from you so far at ANI are worse than useless. You seem to get fun out of stirring the shit pot. I have a special little bag of resentment for namechangers who aren't open about their previous account. Drmies (talk) 22:44, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

No I don't get fun from stirring the pot. Give an hyperlink for it if I do. Colton Cosmic (talk) 23:09, 13 May 2012 (UTC) PS: Drmies, Why are you cursing, this is a family encyclopedia. Colton Cosmic (talk) 23:40, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, in our articles about living people neutral reporting should be a priority. The removal of this supportive comment avoids that, as such its removal is imo a BLP violation if you have a good reason for its removal I will stop attempting to replace it. - Youreallycan 18:43, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Is the statement supported by the reference it precedes? If so, then there needs to be a good reason for removing it. If not, then it's "hijacking" the existing reference in order to make it look referenced, it's an unreferenced statement in a BLP, and either way you're declaring your intent to disrupt Misplaced Pages to make a point. Also, WP:BLP does not require neutral reporting. It requires that reliable sources must be present to verify any and all controversial or potentially defamatory material, neutrality has nothing to do with it. If the only reliable sources on a BLP are negative, then trying to make the article "neutral" is itself a BLP policy violation. Given that everyone who supports you every time you come up at AN/I points out your stellar contributions in the BLP area as an example of your benefit to the project, you should absolutely know this. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 19:00, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• I've blocked both Youreallycan (talk · contribs) and pdfpdf (talk · contribs) for 72 hours, thanks to this edit-war. Moreschi (talk) 19:03, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

No warning to either? Colton Cosmic (talk) 20:57, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

YRC knew he violated 3RR (except possibly for his BLP exemption claims), and Pdfpdf brought the report against YRC. Why would warnings be necessary?--Bbb23 (talk) 21:02, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Warnings aren't always necessary, but sometimes they are appropriate, or at least in the best long term interest of Misplaced Pages itself. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:36, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Darn! A contributor who believes admins ought to warn, and isn't scared to say it in their frontyard! I figure odds are about two in seven that he's an admin. I've read virtually nothing of whatever the heck the quarrel was about, but I saw Youreallycan conscientiously report himself and figure he ought to be unblocked on that basis if no other. Colton Cosmic (talk) 22:11, 13 May 2012 (UTC) PS: Who's administering the admins?

Good thing we have you, a masked fighter of admin abuse. Drmies (talk) 22:46, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Hey Drmies , I actually like a sarcastic comment like that because it allows me to know you better. I briefly looked at your user page and I didn't see your face either. Colton Cosmic (talk) 23:47, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Try the user pages of my previous accounts. Drmies (talk) 02:11, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

• Where is this self-destructiveness coming from? I mean, he's threatening to sock at this point. :/ Silverseren 19:36, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
  • It might be advisable to fully-protect his talk page before he talks himself into serious trouble. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:44, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• I think it's a bit late for that.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:46, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• *facepalms* A bit late, yeah. Silverseren 20:09, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• He's angry. Saying he's going to do something doesn't mean he will do it. And I sympathize. Anyone who defends the integrity of wikipedia content and rules too vigorously gets smacked down for it. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:52, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Stupid stupid stupid block -- BLPN is a nearly desolate wasteland that YRC often nearly singlehandedly mans. The post here wasn't really about edit-warring -- it was a cry for help, which Bbb23 did the right thing regarding and pitched on the talk page and article. While YRC may have been 3rr applying a block here is stupid letter of the law bureaucracy -- and now the siutation has been escalated instead of deescalated. Please unblock YRC. Nobody Ent 21:07, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• While Ent and I may have different ways of describing it, we share the same perspective here. I don't agree with some of YRC's methods, but I know that his heart was in the right place, even if his head wasn't. I disagree with blocking him without a warning, considering the circumstances. Technically, he violated 3RR, but so did two others I put warning templates on just today. There was an ongoing conversation on the talk page, heated as it was, and I personally feel that a "shot across the bow" would have been sufficient. I personally believe that heated discussion is better than none, and generally just needs a neutral party to keep it on track (ie:Bbb23). The block may be "technically permissible" and within the letter of policy, but I don't think it is in the best interest of Misplaced Pages. I mean no disrespect to Moreschi nor do I question his good faith in blocking the editors, but I would ask he consider a less drastic solution, such as protecting the page and pushing the two long time editors into dispute resolution or simply allow Bbb23 to mediate, as he has previously proven quite capable in this role. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:31, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

My post is not intended as a criticism of Moreschi -- understanding the full context of the situation requires a historical perspective that an editor just coming upon the situation isn't going to have. Nobody Ent 21:35, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I surely believe you, and hopefully he will as well. I have notified him on his talk page, and qualified my response because I was asking for specific relief, not because he did anything wrong. Blocking without any warning was only one possible option, but not necessarily the best option in this particular case. I am hopeful he will trust the judgement of myself and others in this. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:48, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• Huh, Ok. Well, I don't see how I or anyone could possibly unblock one without unblocking the other, and this I am not minded to do. It's very clear that they both behaved very badly, edit-warring completely brainlessly while spitting and hissing at each other on the talk page. Such conduct does not exactly maintain a collegial editing atmosphere, and without such an atmosphere this project just does not work. At all.
• Nor do I see that YRC is so obviously right in this dispute that, or the threat of a severe BLP violation so imminent, that he gets off the hook that way. There are certainly circumstances in which I can envisage not blocking people for 3RR if they were consistently reverting clear and obvious (but non-vandalistic) BLP violations. But this is simply not one of those cases. By the end they were largely warring over trivialities, such as whether or not a supporting statement from the article subject's party leader should be included. That is, one way or another, not a serious BLP issue, and is something editors should be perfectly capable of talking over calmly and rationally on the talkpage without going the balloons going up. I don't know if people have counted the reverts, but I got to YRC being at about 6RR before losing track. In 2012 that's not OK. This isn't 2005 any more, when 48 reverts in a day in one page got you no more than 24 hours off...(true story).
• YRC seems to me someone who would be entirely prepared to sacrifice not just part of our system of policies and guidelines, but, if necessary, all of it - in order to preserve the remainder. Even making allowances for his frustration, he seems entirely convinced that he must be right and could in no possible world ever be wrong - completely immune to concepts such as compromise, negotiation, and the middle ground. I have been through at least 3 arbitration cases with people like this, who often contributed a good deal of useful encyclopaedic content but whose complete unwillingness to work in a collegial manner led to them getting banned. In at least two of those cases the problem editor was defended in a manner remarkably similar to that which I'm seeing here: "has the encyclopaedia's best interests at heart, etc, etc". This is all and well and good but is completely worthless if someone cannot compromise and work with their fellow editors. And YRC's vast block log under both his current account and that of Off2riorob (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) suggests he has a serious problem with this.
• Now that both editors have been blocked, the talkpage has calmed down, and the article is being calmly and consensually edited by rational people who have their heads screwed on the right way. This seems like a very good outcome, so why people are advocating that both editors be let off the leash to have at it again I don't know. Why protect the page, which will just stop sensible people from editing while this pair fight it out? It's not as if the article doesn't need improving.
• I'm open to persuasion, but this is where I'm at right now. LMK what you think. Moreschi (talk) 22:32, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Oh, and I'm sorry, but saying I "blocked without warning" is just stupid. They obviously knew they were edit-warring, seeing as YRC made this thread here and Pdf created a thread at the 3rr report page. When new/newish editors edit war we warn them before we block to make sure they have actually read the policies on edit-warring and 3RR, so if they keep going they definitely knew they were doing something wrong. That obviously doesn't apply here, these are two experienced contributors who know the rules just fine. Moreschi (talk) 22:41, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• FWIW, although some will not be happy with me for saying so, I agree with the block. Things have calmed down considerably on the article Talk page. Both blocked editors were inflaming the situation both on the Talk page and in the article. It had gotten completely out of control. Pdfpdf has not commented on the block, but YRC has not helped his case by his post-block comments. Therefore, the block has already served a preventative purpose in ameliorating the content dispute, and hopefully it will serve yet another preventative purpose by giving YRC a chance to cool off and reflect.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:44, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• Would you (Bbb23) have edited the page if YRC had not initiated this ANI thread? Nobody Ent 22:52, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• By "the page" I assume you mean the Nikolic article. I was editing the article before this thread. If I recall correctly, my first clue there was a problem with the article was YRC's post at BLPN.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:57, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• You make a good argument and I reverse my opinion that he should be unblocked. I didn't look at the talk page before, but, doing so now, I see that the issue was both of them and YRC was just as much in the wrong here. Silverseren 22:49, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
• My goal was simply to bring you here and ask you to reconsider your options and see if there was a better solution that would best serve Misplaced Pages in dealing with two hard-headed, but long time editors. I do tend to cut some extra slack when 3RR BLP is even a remote possibility, I tend to allow for a greater degree of "heat" in the talk page discussions than others, and my nature is to give credit for someone who brings the issue to ANI themselves. You are not obligated to do the same, obviously. If you decide that blocking is the only, or the best, option, we will just have to disagree, and I won't labor the issue. There are some problems that YRC needs to work on, I am just not convinced that a block is conducive to achieving the end result here. Dennis Brown - 2¢© 23:00, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• I think blocking both is certainly the way to achieve the best end result as far as the article is concerned, and I think events would bear me out on this one (as Bbb23 notes). As far as YRC's future editing is concerned - I guess he may take some time out to cool off, but that doesn't seem likely, given his hot-headed threats to sock etc. Like you I doubt blocking is optimal here, but then letting him off the hook is hardly going to help him either when 5 months from now someone gets completely fed up with his unwillingness to negotiate and drags his backside to ArbCom. But I agree he is a concern, as he obviously does valuable work it would be a pity to lose. Maybe once the block is expired we should think about a mentoring agreement? Moreschi (talk) 23:10, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• I agree that some form of mentoring is in order. Perhaps a few weeks of imprisonment vacation at Pesky's Tea House. I am concerned that the block may make him less receptive, rather than more, but it is easy to see that you and I share the same overall opinions on the matter, even if our ideas on the best solutions differ slightly. He is a valuable asset to Misplaced Pages most of the time, but it is the rest of the time that worries us both. As I stated, the goal was to consider the total solution here, and in the end, I do think he is a valuable enough contributor to warrant this second look, regardless of what decision you make in the end. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 23:20, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Big picture: YRC should be unblocked because, although he went beyond 3rr -- he caught himself and came here, and had already stopped editing the article after initiating this ANI thread. Blocks are supposed to be preventative -- this one is escalatory. Yes, he goes off from time to time, but sometimes good faith is ignoring excessive rhetoric. Is the block good in the sense that's it's supportable by policy yes. Does it make sense in a bureaurcracy free community? No. Nobody Ent 23:04, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

This "escalatory not preventative" argument is somewhat undermined by his later claims to be prepared to keep edit-warring, socking if necessary, to get his way. Though I agree we must make allowances for hyperbole.

Big picture: has the dual-block improved the article and the surrounding editing atmosphere? Unequivocally yes. Aren't admin actions taken to improve encyclopedic content a good thing?

And why on earth should we unblock YRC and not Pdf, as you seem to be saying? Both of them acted equally badly, as the most cursory review makes clear. Moreschi (talk) 23:14, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy; it can't be known whether the editing atmosphere improved because the editors were blocked or because YRC stopped edit warring of his own accord and came here. With regard to pdf I've got no problem with unblocking both editors. Nobody Ent 23:20, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Stopped edit-warring? His edit made just prior to posting here was yet another revert, done 25 minutes before creating this thread. That's after the big chain of 5/6 reverts about 5/6 hours earlier in the morning. Moreschi (talk) 23:27, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. Was edit warring (bad). Wasn't caught or 3rr reported, stopped of his own accord (here), and came here seeking assistance.Nobody Ent 00:07, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

This isn't true either. Pdf filed a report against YRC at WP:EW/N some 5 hours before YRC created this thread. Moreschi (talk) 00:17, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

The question isn't whether admin actions are a good thing (they are) -- it's what action was the best action to take; I simply don't think that blocking was the best action for the reasons elucidated above. Nobody Ent 00:07, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

The best action for the article, or the best for YRC? Two different questions. Moreschi (talk) 00:17, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Neither is particularly important -- the standard should be what is best for Misplaced Pages as a whole. The answer, of course, is an active YRC acting in accordance with community standards, which was not happening today. The question is what sequence of actions can we as a community take to most likely achieve that aim. Nobody Ent 01:28, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Coming here was an attempt to get public opinion on his side, a tactic he's used before. His actions on the article are out of line. The more I read the talk page of the article in question, the more I am appalled at YRC's actions here. For example, the positive quote that this ANI discussion was made in regards to was being removed by the other user because the quote was supporting an action that the subject himself stated he never did in the first place. That's why it was being removed and that's a perfectly good reason to remove it. But instead of discussing it on the talk page, YRC began edit warring it in. And it's not just this, but several other things over the past few days that he's refused to properly discuss on the talk page and just edit warred with it. I mean, his first comment on the talk page back on the 11th was "HI - PLEASE DON'T REPLACE CONTENT DISPUTED AT THE NOTICEBOARD WITHOUT CONSENSUS SUPPORT THERE = THANKS - ALSO PLEASE PRESENT YOUR ASSERTED ADDITIONAL RELIABLE CITATIONS THERE FOR INVESTIGATION - THANKS". That was his first comment. It wasn't after others had ignored him and not presented sources, this was his first contribution to the discussion. Silverseren 23:15, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Threat to evade bans/blocks

Could an administrator act on this threat please? Note, the account is currently blocked due to edit warring. For the block log of the previous account, please see this link. Viriditas (talk) 21:37, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Better to just let things settle -- haste makes waste (Ents just hate hasty actions, you know). Nobody Ent 21:42, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Finally something amusing in this topic, thanks NE.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:19, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Regardless of whether the initial block was inappropriate (and I believe I would agree with you, Ent, that it was), this threat to sock, which presumably applies any time he is blocked, is extremely concerning. Silverseren 21:51, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

He's angry. Saying he's going to do something doesn't mean he will do it. He's a vigorous defender of BLP's, and sometimes his defense of the rules clouds his practical judgment. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:55, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I think the issue is that his defense of the rules too often falls into what his opinion of the rules is and this leads to disruption. And saying he will sock in order to "defend living people against this project" kinda implies that he's not doing it for the benefit of Misplaced Pages. Silverseren 22:05, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

He is simply venting. Reading too much into this is not productive. Even while at the height of rage, his motives are purely about what he thinks is best for Misplaced Pages, not solely to be disruptive. Allow him the same breathing room you would ask us to give you in the same circumstance. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:58, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

What's the point of blocking him if the blocks won't prevent him from edit warring? Viriditas (talk) 22:02, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Per what I said right above to Bugs, saying "I will still defend living people against this project" means that he isn't doing what's best for Misplaced Pages, but what he thinks is best for living people in his own opinion. Silverseren 22:05, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Which I construe to be what is in the best interest of Misplaced Pages, as that is the first goal of BLP "Do no harm" here. You just see it differently than I do. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 22:08, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I've always found it amazing that the people who feel it's their mission to protect living people are 1. either omnipotent or capable of mind-reading and 2. can so often treat other Misplaced Pages users so badly. I've never understood why BLP enforcement has to entail such harsh responses towards the other people who are working to build an encyclopedia. People should be able to have different opinions on what's BLP compliant without having the lowest common denominator screaming "BLP BLP CALL THE WIKICOPS!!!!!!!!" at the top of their lungs every time someone disagrees on one of these matters. My goodness, it's just a fucking website, in the grand scheme of things we probably aren't going to make that huge a difference in a person's life unless they're affiliated with Misplaced Pages and/or choose to make a huge issue out of it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:14, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

That's the defeatist attitude that allows BLP-violators and other kinds of POV-pushers to get their way here. Ask Mr. Wales how much BLP matters. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:21, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It's not like I've never stood up for BLP when it was necessary (see , which was a BLP violation but isn't now because the person in question is now dead), but claiming that calling someone "Professor Emeritus" is a BLP violation on the grounds it makes him sound "old and washed up" (I am not making this up, I can get the thread if you like) is absurd, and that seems to be what "BLP enforcement" largely consists of. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:26, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I think it is probably time for the community to ban Youreallycan for continuing to push his POV that BLP subjects should be treated with respect. With all due respect to Moreschi, this block should have been indef. We don't need people on this project who are more interested in the feelings of people than they are with following the rules. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:28, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Good one. :) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:46, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

The joking reverse psychology is just more insulting than anything else, DC. Silverseren 22:31, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• Two edit-warriors get blocked--what's new? They think they were right--what's new? Rob gets blocked for edit-warring in the defense of the BLP policy (in his opinion) and then blows up and starts saying stupid s**t--what's new? Rob won't be banned (the good outweighs the bad) and all this will blow over. Hopefully, in the meantime someone who cares will look at the article and edit it properly. Moving right along. Drmies (talk) 22:52, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• How do you know this "someone who cares" editor actually exists? Are you claiming there are no existing Misplaced Pages articles which violate our BLP policy? Nobody Ent 22:56, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• Apparently this editor does exist and he is Bbb23, among others. I mean, you're involved on the talk page too, albeit with only the single word comment. Silverseren 22:59, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• The best way to avoid edit wars on articles is for articles to be decent in the first place. There are plenty of editors who are, but you said "know" where I said "hopefully"--so I don't know jack. And why would you ask me that second question? I've worked on BLP violations for years, sometimes with Rob--I know very well what poor condition that area on WP is in. Where have I suggested that there are no violations?? I apologize for the double question mark, but I can't figure out where you got that from. I also apologize for twice ending a sentence with a preposition. Drmies (talk) 23:55, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Need a statement reversing sock threat

We really need Youreallycan to explain the sock threats he made. If they were just made while he was angry, fine. But they can't just sit there ignored, they are too blatant and, admittedly, frightening. A removal of those comments on his talk page by him would go a long way toward showing he didn't mean them. Silverseren 23:22, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• I wouldn't be too frightened of YRC socking. For starters, he sticks out like sore thumb and would be caught instantly. "Oh, a new editor, very brazen, has a deep knowledge of BLP and is constantly participating there"..... He knows that, don't take it so seriously. We have dozens of socks roaming through the halls every day and we manage just fine. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 23:25, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• That...does not answer what I said at all. You're saying that we should ignore socks because they exist? Silverseren 23:28, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• Can't you discuss your point without your last sentence? Insulting, unwarranted, and unnecessary.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:32, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)x2 Removed, sorry. I just don't understand how one could defend him to the point of practically saying that socks are okay. Silverseren 23:38, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• Oh, I'm not defending him, he isn't a friend. I'm pretty sure he doesn't like me. He openly opposed me at my Request for Admin. I'm doing what I think is the right thing here, nothing more. His personal feelings regarding me aren't related to his contributions at Misplaced Pages. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 23:59, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Real socks generally don't announce themselves in advance and we already know how to deal with socks when they pop up. Go check SPI daily. His threat is likely an idle one, and he would be easy to spot if he was foolish enough to sock. How you drew your conclusion is beyond me. How you expressed it was unnecessary. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 23:35, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

That doesn't change the fact that the threat should be reverted by him. We often block for threats of socking and if he refuses to say he didn't mean it, then we should do the same here. Silverseren 23:38, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

And he was just blocked a very short time ago. Perhaps we should at least allow his blood pressure to return to normal before putting any further demands on him. Even if you think he is 100% in the wrong, you have to be realistic and understand that people vent when they are blocked. This is typical. Give them a day before you expect them to retract their unfortunate words. It isn't like he is asking for an unblock, and likely is isn't observing your requests at this time anyway. He will eat his words in due time. I'm just saying that you can't take it very seriously at this stage. Had he been indef'ed, I would be more willing to consider the possibility. For now, a little patience is due. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 23:45, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• I think we should let this one go. It's far more likely to be just a ragequit along the lines of "ah, you may have blocked me now, but I'll win in the end!". Not to be taken seriously. Plus, if he does sock, as Dennis Brown says, he'll be easily caught and promptly permabanned. Moreschi (talk) 23:48, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I happen to think the blocks were ill-considered, and YRC's umbrage is pretty understandable in the context of the edits he objected to. Collect (talk) 23:53, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• YRC does stick out like a sore thumb, and has a temper which led to all of this. But he's one of the good guys and cares too much. Plus he knows we know him, and he knows about SPI and all that. Nothing to worry about. Collect, I'm usually with you but not in this case. Sorry. Drmies (talk) 00:00, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

I said the other day on one of Jimbo's subpages that before Youreallycan came along, BLPN was a wasteland that had tumbleweeds blowing across it. I do mean that. I would post something there sometimes, and it would be archived without response. Youreallycan is a tower of strength when it comes to lessening the impact of malicious editing on our reputation. I consider him quite as important to Misplaced Pages's functioning as Moonriddengirl, say, is to copyright matters. BLP policy demands that articles be balanced, and include positive and negative information. Give the man some credit. I very much doubt that he was trying to make the article worse, and I have seen dozens and dozens of hatchet jobs he rescued. The stuff he put in was sourced, , and there was nothing supportive of the subject there before. (And Nikolic later admitted he had indeed made the post, and there is a screenshot of it here.) JN466 02:41, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

And please unblock him as soon as he has calmed down sufficiently. JN466 02:43, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

And by the way, the whole Facebook paragraph is just WP:ADAM. It's unencyclopedic, recentist, and undue. The whole thing deserves two sentences, if that, not a 200-word paragraph. JN466 02:48, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

• JN466 is correct and YRC should be unblocked after cooling down as he is often Misplaced Pages's only defense against BLP violations. After a very quick look, I'm not sure that exceeding 3RR on BLP grounds was a good idea in the current case, although YRC's instinct is correct: it is massively UNDUE to put a major section on "Facebook posts" in a politician's BLP—the subject "gained international attention" after posting some very tame and understandable (although misjudged) responses to major trolling, and now he has a Misplaced Pages article that permanently records the 15 minutes of trivia. Johnuniq (talk) 07:45, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Alternative proposal

We call an end to WP:ADAM, get serious about wanting to be an encyclopedia rather than a tabloid aggregator, and get a few admins to hang out at BLPN rather than here and actually use WP:BLPBAN to warn and block editors who use Misplaced Pages to take their animus out on various BLP subjects and write coatracks and hatchet jobs.

Flagged revisions wouldn't be bad either, but this would do for a start. --JN466 12:17, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

All good, but it doesn't do anything to address the conduct problems that are resulting in YRC notching up one block a month. What are your suggestions for dealing with that? Prioryman (talk) 12:37, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

YRC is notching up a block a month because in his work at BLPN, he is typically opposed by several editors whose editing is directly responsible for the article coming up at BLPN, and who are reverting articles back into a non-compliant state. Again, if admins made BLPN patrol a priority, and warned editors who are not editing in compliance with policy, this would relieve a lot of the stress on YRC. --JN466 21:26, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

YRC promised not to sock or edit-war, in future. It's unblocking time. GoodDay (talk) 12:52, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

He has promised many times not to edit-war in future. What has changed? How are we going to avoid another such situation? I'm looking for suggestions here. Prioryman (talk) 12:56, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

My suggestion is that you have a large cup of tea. Your proposals seem to engender essentially zilch support from others, so the "situation" does not appear to others to be quite as life-threatening as you appear to see it. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:09, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Solution

As Youreallycan has clearly indicated they "get it", and is showing a willingness to voluntarily accept sanctions on their talk page, I suggest we wrap up this part of the exercise. He has assured us that he has no intention of socking, as I expected he would. I have offered to assist him in developing better methods for dealing with disputes, and while he hasn't accepted outright, he has shown a willingness to work with me and others to find a long term solution, and I will continue to work with him on an ongoing basis, to the extent that he will allow. As for unblocking or leaving the block in place, I will leave that to the blocking admin to determine, as he is fully capable of reviewing the situation and determining the best course of action using his own judgement without any further input from me on the issue. I am convinced YRC does understand the problem. Where he goes from here is up to him. At this time, it is my opinion that no further action is needed beyond those I have already mentioned. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 14:29, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

• • He has accepted mentoring, updated to reflect this. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 15:31, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Dennis. For those who have followed the discussions on YRC's Talk page, he has indeed calmed down and stated that his sock threats were in the heat of anger and he was venting. In particular, Dennis and YRC have been discussing different community-acceptable possibilities for when YRC can edit again. I think we should drop this and move on. I might also add that none of the proposed restrictions on YRC above has been supported by a consensus.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:54, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

I would agree except this has happened time and time again. YRC gets on a tear about BLP, he insults or edit wars, and then he "gets it". Rinse and repeat. Let the block stick or we'll be back here again. AniMate 15:32, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

In my post above I almost commented on this perspective, which is understandable. How much leeway we give an editor who engages in repetitive disruptive behavior is, of course, a judgment call, but it should take into account, as others have mentioned, how much repetitive constructive behavior the editor also engages in. With YRC, there's a tremendous amount of that. His contributive vigilance is prolific. I haven't paid that much attention to his pace recently, but I used to get tired just watching him. I might also add that my sense is although YRC does still lose it, as here, he appears to be more and more amenable to change. In my view, there has been some real movement by him in a positive direction. I don't think his latest positive comments on his Talk page are insincere. I think he should be given the opportunity to progress. All that said, I would allow the 72-hour block to expire on its own - I wouldn't unblock him. He's using that time productively to reflect and to discuss how to move forward.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:43, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

On a side note...I wouldn't be too quick to say that YRC has a good handle on BLP. His opinions on BLP are at times idiosyncratic with both the letter and spirit of BLP. The strained logic displayed at Misplaced Pages:BLPN#Adam_Yauch are a recent example. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:57, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't think a blow-by-blow analysis of YRC's application of BLP policy serves any productive purpose, particularly the one you cite, an unsual situation and one where you disagreed with YRC. BLP policy is not the easiest to interpret and apply, and many experienced editors can disagree in any particular case. If we start scrutinizing each article in which YRC was involved, we might as well open up a new noticeboard devoted to YRC.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:10, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

For the record, the specific steps that have been taken are that (1) Dennis Brown has kindly offered to act as YRC's mentor, which YRC has agreed to; and (2) that YRC has agreed to my suggestion that he voluntarily observe a 1RR restriction. In addition, Dennis and I have both offered to counsel YRC if he encounters difficulties in the BLP area in future. This offers a pretty good basis to go forward without further incidents. Given this agreement I've closed my earlier proposal for community sanctions. Prioryman (talk) 17:28, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

When his block expires, please attempt to counsel him whenever issues relating to Judaism and homosexuality come up. He seems to have some real problems dealing with both, and his intransigence can at times be detrimental to collegial editing. AniMate 18:17, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm aware there've been issues with both matters in the past, though I'm not sure whether these have just been heat of the moment issues or indications of a more serious underlying attutude problem. Regardless, we'll keep an eye on it. Prioryman (talk) 20:32, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Unblock both proposal

It's been enough time, they get it, we get it. They both need to stop edit warring and use the talk page or other dispute resolution channels. Should edit warring happen again from either of them, normal blocks should follow Regardless of any of this nonsense that YRC should get a free pass because of BLP. Anyways, I propose an unblock of both User:Youreallycan and User:Pdfpdf as time served. I'm not sure if someone has done this already anyways, but it's best to just make it official. Silverseren 21:08, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

I concur with the unblock request. There are now measures in place to try to prevent a recurrence of YRC's actions and he is aware of the need to change his approach. I think the block's served its purpose by now. Prioryman (talk) 21:13, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

I still oppose, at least in regards to YRC. You say he "get's it." Well he's supposedly "gotten it" multiple times before, and yet here we are again. I think a loud and clear message needs to be sent to him that he needs to change his behavior. Since he clearly didn't get it from the numerous previous blocks, I think this one should stick. AniMate 21:19, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, he has too many buddies on-wiki to do that. I'm willing to give his edit warring and incivility one last chance, but the next time this happens, I am going to vigorously oppose unblocking. Silverseren 21:21, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

I hear you. I've told him that this is the last chance saloon for him and the next stop is arbitration. If it comes to that, I'll file a case myself. Claims that his BLP work excuse persistent edit warring will get shot down pretty quickly there, I can assure you. Prioryman (talk) 21:34, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

It's not like he's blocked indefinitely. It's 72 hours. Misplaced Pages, YRC's buddies, and the BLPs can survive 3 days without him editing. There have been way too many "next times". This doesn't need to go to arbitration and he needs to stay blocked. AniMate 21:36, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

• Suggest checking with the admin who blocked, at a minimum. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:41, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Both knowingly edit warred and knew they shouldn't, and they're solid blocks. Besides neither has posted an unblock request or edited for several hours. I don't understand the rush to unblock. AniMate 21:45, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

To be honest I'm indifferent about whether the block is lifted now or left to expire naturally. It doesn't really make much difference either way. I think Silver's point above is simply that the block (at least in YRC's case) doesn't seem to have much of a useful purpose to it now that the issue seems to have been resolved. Or to put it another way, it's now more punitive than preventative. Prioryman (talk) 21:52, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

That's where we'll have to disagree. These issues have been resolved before. Promises to change have been made. He's agreed to leave topics and to reform and here we are again. Keeping him blocked is preventative, because each and every time he's been unblocked we end up back here. Blocks lose all meaning if they are lifted because of promises that are made and not kept. If you really think his behavior has been problematic, let him sit out this block because there have been way to many "next time the block will stick." AniMate 22:05, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

At this point it's moot as he's been unblocked based on conditions he's agreed to. I don't think it's a big deal that he's been unblocked. Nor do I think it would have been a big deal if he'd sat out the remainder of the block. However, because AniMate seems to be alone (publicly at least) in his position on this issue, I feel I should say that my views coincide with his. Nonetheless, I sincerely hope we won't be back here in the future.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:27, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

User:E4024

E4024 (talk · contribs) is an aggressive Turkish nationalist involved in edit-wars across multiple articles. In Cyprus he is making unencyclopedic edits to the lede of the article and edit warring over them . He has been making tendentious edits to that article for a while now using inflammatory edit-summaries . In Cyprus dispute he has been involved in a particularly nasty slow-edit-war since May 1st . Again, edit-summaries are frequently hostile , mocking and attempting to intimidate other users. Talkpage posts are similarly disruptive, sometime purely inflammatory . He has already been warned to cease and desist from this kind of behavior, to no avail. It is my distinct impression that this user is not here to help build a neutral encyclopedia. A strongly worded warning from an administrator that this kind of behavior is unacceptable seems to be in order at this point. Athenean (talk) 00:22, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

• Arrrrgggghhhh noooooo. Oh, good grief. Moreschi (talk) 00:42, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Athenean - d'you reckon we can stretch WP:ARBMAC to cover Greek/Turkish fights over Cyprus? Or is there another relevant case? Moreschi (talk) 00:45, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Not sure, that's why I posted here rather than WP:AE. But I don't think anyone would mind if it were stretched, particularly if it benefited the encyclopedia. Athenean (talk) 00:52, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

• Yeah, that's probably the case. Alright, I'm off to get some sleep - I'm too tired now to think completely straight and don't want to be doing anything controversial half asleep. My initial reaction is to give notifications/sternly worded warnings to the main two edit warriors at Cyprus dispute, rapidly progressing to blocks/revert paroles/etc should this nonsense continue. I also note that Athenean is entirely correct in analyzing the frequent talkpage soapboxing of E4024, something that also needs to be addressed along with the edit warring. If anyone wants to act on this in the meantime please feel free. Otherwise I'll deal with it when I wake up. Best, Moreschi (talk) 00:59, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Have a good sleep Moreschi. May Greek gods protect you...--E4024 (talk) 06:54, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Looking over both the main- and the talkpage edits listed above, I don't find them particularly POV or inflammatory. Differentiating between Cyprus (the Island) and the Republic of Cyprus (which claims all of it, but only controls ~60%) seems to be a reasonable and encyclopedic thing to do. We describe the state as it is, not as it should be. The edit warring, on the other hand, is cause for concern. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:14, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Stephan Schulz. I also thank Athenean for bringing the issue here, because as a newcomer I would not know how to do it. Sorry, everyone, for taking your time... --E4024 (talk) 08:25, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

• Well, I have been traditionally involved with discussions regarding Cyprus, but not this time (we have got some more complex discussions on Turkish Misplaced Pages currently :). As an outsider, I can say that E4024 has been involved in some obvious personal attacks, including an example above. However, the case is not that simple, at least in the case of the article of Cyprus dispute. E4024 is not just editing the stable version to push his POV, this is a two-sided dispute, between 23x2 and E4024. The dispute is over the first sentence, and 23x2 replaced the stable version with the current version. His source does not confirm anything about the Cyprus dispute (it does not even have the word "dispute" in it), but E4024's source doesn't either. Then E4024 reverted it and added his own reference, which started a slow-motion edit war between the two. 23x2 has gone as far as accusing one user of being E4024's puppet. I do not have any involvement in the case of the article of Cyprus, and I got involved in the "Cyprus dispute" without any particular intention :) In short, I think presenting the issue in the article of Cyprus dispute as completely consisting of POV-pushing by E4024 is incorrect, and I am not quite sure if Athenean has the right to call him an "aggressive Turkish nationalist". But certainly, he has violated WP:NPA and potentially 3RR (I don't know exactly). --Seksen (talk) 14:42, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
• Thanks for shedding light on the events. I wonder why you are not quite sure if Athenean has the right to call me "aggressive ... nationalist" while you have no doubts that I have been "involved in some obvious personal attacks". I am only trying to contribute to the articles that concern mainly Turks and Greeks, trying to make these texts less pro-Greek or -in other words- more objective. (BTW I am neither nationalist nor aggressive.)--E4024 (talk) 15:09, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

@StephenSchultz: Not particularly POV or inflammatory you say? I forgot to include this . Meanwhile, I note that E4024 is continuing with the trolling both here and elsewhere . This needs to stop. Athenean (talk) 16:46, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

I do not want to personalise things but I cannot understand the negative attitude against my edits. In the article Cyprus the user Spartiatisspartiatis has made 5 reverts in only 3 hours today. Why does Athenean not complain about Spartiatispartiatis? (The names are just like this, I am not being ironic.) I understand I will have to be less passionate in talk pages, but seeing these kinds of discrimination causes one to rebel. I am sorry about that. I do try to contribute to the articles in an honest, objective manner and will continue to do so. Any neutral party can see that looking into "all" of my edits, not only those hand-picked by one party. BTW, Athenean, the gentleman's name is Stephan Schultz, not StephenSchultz. --E4024 (talk) 19:21, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Per the universal rule of irony, it's actually "Stephan Schulz" ("a" in the given name, no "t" in the family name). In particular, I have nothing in common with Sergeant Schultz, except maybe girth... ;-) --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:18, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

It is good to have here people with sense of humour like you, Mister Schulz. I wish we edited the same pages... :-) --E4024 (talk) 10:46, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

IMO it is quite probable that he would quickly lose his sense of humour if you insisted on making the same kind of edits in the articles he frequents as you do in your current ones. Δρ.Κ.  22:02, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I have absolutely no opinion on Cyprus whatsoever, and, as far as I know, I've never edited the relevant pages (save perhaps in some drive-by vandalism patrolling). However, I do have experience with nationalist/ethnocentric edit-warring of my own, and E4024's comments are completely incompatible with our working processes. I've issued E4024 a final warning; while I'm not going to be watching the pages in question (I'm not even certain all of the pages that would require watching), if anyone encounters further bad behavior, they're welcome to report it to me or back to ANI. Continuing disruption would be grounds for a series of escalating blocks, until such time as E4024 agrees to edit civilly and neutrally. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:02, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Iloveandrea continued personal attacks.

Iloveandrea (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Iloveandrea continue to attack other users in his last attack he calls other users racist and accusing them part of some faction or having agenda. Its not the first time that this user a attacking others he was already brought to AN/I.

• Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive750#User:Iloveandrea
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive722#User::Iloveandrea
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive742#Need_a_clue

--Shrike (talk) 07:20, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Exaggeration. His edits are usually good. His talk comments are colorful, but so is a rainbow. Do you hate rainbows? Who, who hates rainbows? Luke 19 Verse 27 (talk) 07:06, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

WP:CIVIL is a policy. Policies are not optional. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:22, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

• I did the last block, and I'm going to try to get the point across in my own colorful way on their talk page. I wouldn't block for this one incident, but would on sight if it happens again soon. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 09:19, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
• Iloveandrea has replied to my warning on my talk page and have reassured me that they will avoid Israel-Palestine articles and a few others. At this point, I suggest giving them this last bit of rope and taking them at their word. I don't see any advantage to taking any additional action at this time. If there is any disruption by them in the near future, then blocking for a week or two on site would be warranted as they have been fully warned and are fully aware of the consequences. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 14:18, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

• Just for the record he already promised that .--Shrike (talk) 15:20, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
• Actually, he said he will not avoid IP articles. Also, it's not just this one incident as a quick look at his contributions from the last few days quite clearly shows. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:37, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

• You're right (referring to Dennis's diff). He said he would "knock it off", but that was with respect to his incivility, not with respect to editing I/P articles, where he said: "I would say I'll stay away from Israel-Palestine articles ..., and thereby the unsavoury people that post on them, but then they win."--Bbb23 (talk) 18:48, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Which smells of WP:BATTLEGROUND... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 19:23, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

My thought exactly when I read it ("then they win").--Bbb23 (talk) 19:49, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Colorful language is a warning sign of edit warring, but contentious AE disputes between parties with equally dubious edit history is best ignored unless something presents a case of true disruption to the project.

Are we going to punish this editor for calling it a fight, thereby making his heresy into prophesy? Luke 19 Verse 27 (talk) 23:18, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Rope is just as cheap as a block here. It is pretty clear that the next disruption will earn an instant block without the need for discussion, making it his 4th block. The editor is clearly able to contribute in a worthwhile fashion. Whether he is willing has yet to be determined. No need to get your knickers in a twist, I don't see him getting blocked for this today. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 15:59, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I admire you Dennis. That is an incredibly logical view and I believe it is the correct one. Ryan Vesey Review me! 16:03, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Rollback Rights Request

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'd like to get the rollback privlage so that I can fight spam and vandalism using igloo. Also how come this page does not have a edit notice entry section ? Thanks BO; talk 21:18, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

 Done since you're a dev. You could probably just assign it yourself with the 'staff' global usergroup. Reaper Eternal (talk) 21:29, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Much Obliged - I probably ask the staff, I never crossed my mind since learning wikipida's community processes is also very important to me, it help identify and troubleshoot info/social point of failure in MediaWiki! BO; talk 21:38, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Developers are not necessarily staff members, and staff members do not necessarily have the global 'staff' group. In any case, using said group to assign a local permission such as rollback on self on enwiki is rather silly, unwise and would send the wrong message. Snowolf 23:48, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

User:X Nilloc X continued disruptive editing

User:X Nilloc X is continuing the behavior he was blocked for recently right off his block. He is doing this both logged in and out (User:98.185.55.83, which is currently blocked). He continues to add a sum total of casualties from various different sources (WP:SYNTH) at List of Taliban fatality reports in Afghanistan, despite obvious consensus against it on the talk page, on Talk:War in Afghanistan (2001–present), and at the dispute resolution noticeboard. Can someone please issue another block, as they will not get a clue. Note that the blocking admin stated very clearly that continuing would result in reblocking.--Atlan (talk) 21:53, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

• Another drive by comment, bollocks. X is currently blocked, so continuing the behavior is obviously bullshit. will coment more when I sober up, but this is balls. Darkness Shines (talk) 22:17, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Yeah, you'd better sober up first, because X is currently NOT blocked. They are currently edit warring the figure back in the article, hence I brought it here. His IP is blocked though, as he was edit warring with that earlier today. Please try again after your hangover.--Atlan (talk) 22:24, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
    • He is now blocked again. This should have happened about three hours ago, sorry for the slow action. If he continues edit warring after 1 week I recommend an indef block because he doesn't seem to understand WP:SYNTH. Shii (tock) 01:32, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
      • How is it in violation of WP:SYNTH? That would only be if I said that was absolutely how many had been killed. All I said on the page was that was the total reported on the page itself - I didn't cite anything for that, I just added up the total figures cited, if that makes sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.35.248 (talk) 05:47, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
        • The above IP is a new X Nilloc X sock continuing his edit war. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:11, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
          • *coff* - Alison 06:16, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
          • Just to note, the editor in question has been evading the block on his/her account, so I've lengthened the block to 1 month. No prejudice against unblocking early if s/he agrees to stop edit-warring. Parsecboy (talk) 22:08, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
            • *coff* again. This is just one of a number of  Confirmed sockies. I've extended to indef now - Alison 22:36, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

User: Greg L

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User User:Greg L is, in my opinion, causing unnecessary disruption. He has begun overwriting all the discussion of his behaviour on his talk page diff (sorry I can't work out how to wikify that link) including the record of his recent ban and abusive language. I guess I can live with him reverted a whole lot of work I did in the weekend, apparently because he feels he is the champion of (User:GFHandel here and User:John_Vandenberg here (who didn't revert any of my changes) that have criticised me recently. I've set up a specific space for discussing criteria for inclusion on the List_of_computer-aided_design_editors at ] which User:Greg L is just ignoring and launching against me. I'm on self enforced editing ban for a week so if anyone agrees with me I'd love to see my changes reinserted. I will try to engage him on the talk page but am not very hopeful. --duncan.lithgow (talk) 21:54, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

That's quite a screed Greg has on his Talk page. I believe User:Bwilkins knows more about this as he blocked Greg on May 14 (which block notice Greg impermissibly removed from his Talk page), and has had discussions with Greg on Bwilkins's Talk page. I didn't look at anything you've done - I stopped after looking at Greg's recent history.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:10, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

You can remove block notices, but not declined unblock requests while the block is still in place unless something has changed. As for the rest, I'd recommend filing an WP:RfC when you get back from your self-enforced hiatus. I'd also recommend ignoring Misplaced Pages for the duration of that hiatus and not asking others to edit for you. AniMate 22:13, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

You're right; my memory of the policy/guideline was faulty. See WP:REMOVED.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:19, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

And, Bbb23, I think you can do better than point to my “screed” and point out how I was recently blocked (for telling DuLithgow precisely what I think of him). Now I am obeying all the little-finger-out niceties of using wiki-pleasantries and am quite intent on sticking to the rules of Misplaced Pages and pure facts. This is purely an issue of editing against consensus; nothing more and nothing less. Notwithstanding that Cobalt is a $3000+ CAD program used by Scaled Composites to design a spacecraft, Lithgow got a wild hair about how it wasn’t sufficiently notable to merit an article on Misplaced Pages. As others have pointed out to him, he is simply wrong and he got reverted over there. Now he is turning Misplaced Pages into a battlefield and has expanded the battle to the list of CAD programs and has now come here to wikilawyer to get his way notwithstanding that no one is agreeing with his arguments. If you want to write that “Greg L is poopy and no one should believe him because he writes non-politically correct ‘screeds’,” do it on your own talk page please; stick to the issue here. Greg L (talk) 22:33, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

But my Talk page is so boring, and you're so entertaining, even if you do use words like "poopy" (unlike some of your edit summaries where you more frankly call things "shit").--Bbb23 (talk) 23:08, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

And after DuLithgow gets out of my f**king face and I’m not so busy in real life that I blow up over unnecessary crap like he’s done, and after I get through with my pout, I’ll restore my pages. Greg L (talk) 23:14, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

It's a particularly fine talk page screed, which everyone should read. The illustrations are very telling. -- Dianna (talk) 23:48, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Nonsense. This editor is editwarring against consensus and is now wikilawyering. Another editor argued against his overly bold deletions of material here at Talk:List_of_computer-aided_design_editors#Complaints_over_unfair_removal. The editor who objected (User:GFHandel) is clearly correct and I agreed with him. The consensus is against what Lithgow is attempting to do there. Moreover, this activity on the list is all just part of his getting his way over deleting our Cobalt (CAD program) article, which I created. Lithgow has objected for months on the Cobalt article but the community doesn’t see things his way. Last week he started an AFD on that and got soundly shouted down by several other editors even without any of my help. Now he is active on the list deleting Cobalt from the list as well as other articles in an attempt to sweep up Cobalt with also-rans, and clearly doesn’t have a leg to stand on when he alleges that Cobalt is non-notable.

GFHandel edits on a different time schedule. I suggest he be allowed to weigh in again over there. So far, this is 100% an issue of an editor (Lithgow) editing against consensus. If he wants to delete wholesale swaths of material that other editors toiled to create, he can make arguments on talk pages that gain traction with others; pure and simple. So far, his arguments are simply not supported by the facts. Greg L (talk) 22:24, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Postdocs, not “postgraduate students”. I do my homework. That usually entails going to the highest sources I can find to get the real facts. Greg L (talk) 22:46, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't believe that Greg_L is "causing unnecessary disruption". 150 readers a day visit List of computer-aided design editors, so it is important to discuss the contents and format of the list there before making wholesale changes. Now that the edits by DuLithgow have been reverted, local editors can get back to discussing the content (and yes, this is now a content issue, so apologies for taking up time here). GFHandel ♬  23:59, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

The section of this page Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User_talk_page_blanking seems to be relevant to the way User:Greg L is removing peoples comments from his talk page. --duncan.lithgow (talk) 09:52, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

As admins already know, he's allowed to do so...so why bring it up yet again? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:19, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

@duncan.lithgow: Please drop the matter. Leave Greg and the related articles alone for a month. If there is a pressing need for stuff to be deleted from List of computer-aided design editors, someone else will take up the challenge. Creating ten sections at Talk:List of computer-aided design editors with proposals to delete stuff and naming Greg is just point scoring and is not helpful for the encyclopedia. Johnuniq (talk) 23:58, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

British Pakistanis

The discussion at Talk:British Pakistanis has become more than a little abusive even after I fully protected the article for 7 days. I would appreciate the eyes of my fellow admins in it. I have added a general warning to those involved who are making personal attacks as they seem unacceptable and extreme enough to me. Considering the approach recently taken with AndyTheGrump, who is also involved on this page in inflaming the discussion, I am aware that my views on what counts as abuse that breaches NPA might be more sensitive than that of other admins or the general community who may see this as 'banter'. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 08:24, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Sources

Given that both User:AnkhMorpork and User:Darkness Shines have been misrepresenting sources, and citing Right-wing American supporters of the EDL and similar questionable sources to add material casting an entire ethnic minority in a bad light - specifically, making false claims that "Most UK girl child abusers are British Pakistanis" and that "statistically Pakistanis carry out a disproportionate amount of sex attacks in the UK" (neither of which can be properly sourced), I think incivility, banter, or whatever you wish to call it is the least of our problems with the article. It is utterly offensive that such 'contributors' should misuse Misplaced Pages to pursue an agenda which can only be motivated by political POV-pushing, Islamophobia, or outright racism. Can anyone indicate another article on Misplaced Pages that contains a 'Contemporary issues' section on 'Child sex abuse' sourced to cherry-picked material, far-right commentators, and the like? AnkhMorpork and Darkness Shines had, along with User:Shrike, tag-teamed to keep this material in the article, while refusing to explain why such a section is justified in this article alone - or why they consider it of such importance, given their apparent lack of other interest in the British Pakistani minority. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:25, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

others have noted the tag-teaming of shrike and ankhmorpork as well . these two are wrecking havoc on articles about crimes committed by muslims. to quote user:div999, ankhmorpork's "Modus Operandi in such articles is to try to get the most inflammatory, sensationalist quotes and those that highlight the ethnicity/religion of the perpetrators inserted prominently into the articles. It is the kind of approach that I would expect in a right wing tabloid newspaper or a BNP pamphlet, but not suitable for the production of encyclopedic articles. This user already has two open dispute resolution cases over these issues with two entirely separate groups of editors." there are others who have come to even harsher conclusions. ankhmorpork and shrike must be banned for tag-teaming, disruptive editing, and pov-pushing.-- altetendekrabbe  14:41, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I shall list the sources and allow people to judge for themselves whether this issue is discussed in relation to the British Pakistani community, and if it is based on dubious sourcing:

• The Sunday Guardian
• Rochdale News
• The Telegraph
• The Times(available here)
• The Telegraph
• BBC
• The National
• BBC
• AIM

Both a BBC documentary and a Channel 4 documentary have been made on this topic, and numerous sources of various political persuasions have also addressed this issue.

In my view, these sources:

1. Are reliable
2. Discuss child sex grooming in connection with the ethnicity of the abusers
3. Were not misconstrued

Andy states above that I have been using "Right-wing American supporters of the EDL and similar questionable sources"; this is patently an absurd claim.

He also states above that I have been "making false claims that "Most UK girl child abusers are British Pakistanis" and cites this diff. In it, I am quoting to him the exact headline of this article after he requested sources; I would like a clarification of how this could possibly amount to a "false claim" or a misrepresentation of the source.

Altetendekrabbe was blocked for personal attacks directed at me. Since then he has continued in exactly the same vein, 1 2 and 3 and I request that his conduct is examined. Ankh.Morpork 14:57, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• I suggest this discussion is held at Talk:British Pakistanis or Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#British_Pakistanis, there seems no point in repeating it on this noticeboard in a thread raised for the separate issue of evaluating the most appropriate administrator action for participants making blatant personal attacks. --Fæ (talk) 15:05, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Fæ, I too do not wish to stage a dispute discussion on this page. However, I have repeatedly been called a bigot and a racist for broaching this issue, and I wish to provide the sources used for my contributions.Ankh.Morpork 15:11, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Can you please explain why you have suddenly taken such an interest in this particular issue? AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:18, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Civility

starts breathing in the schadenfreude tangible in the air Seriously, all disputants please refrain from intemperate language. Hasteur (talk) 15:24, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• AndyTheGrump's edit here , when he calls AnkhMorpork a liar and a bigot, is more than intemperate language. It is (should be...) completely unacceptable. AndyTheGrump should consider a voluntary break from the topic. Tom Harrison 15:34, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Rather than having another dispute about 'civility', why don't we actually address the real issue here, which is POV-pushing, misrepresentation of sources, and using an article on an ethnic group as a forum for an attack on said group. Since AnkhMorpork has brought up The times as a source, can I suggest that people take a look at this diff where He/she cites the article in question for "child protection experts have identified a repeated pattern of sex offending...most of the convicted offenders are of Pakistani heritage...". What is of course omitted is the material in ellipses. Although the Times is behind a paywall, it appears from a copy I found elsewhere that the last sentence actually reads "Most of the victims are white and most of the convicted offenders are of Pakistani heritage, unlike other known models of child-sex offending in Britain, including child abuse initiated by online grooming, in which the vast majority of perpetrators are white". The Times article also apparently states that:

The Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre said in 2009 that networks of “white British, British Asians, and Kurdish asylum-seekers” had been “prominently identified” as internal sex traffickers of British girls. “Kurds are identified as being dominant in the North East of England, but Anglo-Asian groups appear to be in control in the Midlands. There are . . . suggestions that in London, West Indian (Caribbean) and Bangladeshi networks are similarly exploiting . . . females for sex.” With the exception of one case involving two white men in Blackburn, The Times has been unable to identify any court case in which two or more white British, Kurdish, African-Caribbean or Bangladeshi men have been convicted of child-sex offences linked to on-street grooming.

The source I found is here , but obviously this needs checking by someone with access to the original. If it is correct, it seems self-evident that AnkhMorpork has grossly misrepresented the Times article in order to portray a regional problem as national, and restricted to the activities of one particular ethnic group, when it is nothing of the sort. Such misrepresentations are surely grounds for a topic ban, if not a block. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:50, 15 May 2012 (UTC)  Highlighted the crux point. --Ohiostandard 10:46, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Note: I have no objection to Ohiostandard's highlighting here - this really is the most significant issue. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:11, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

In response to your request for sources making a link between the paragraph on child sex grooming and the British Pakistani community, I cited this source. It draws a distinction between child sex grooming of which "most of the convicted offenders are of Pakistani heritage" and other child sex offenses "in which the vast majority of perpetrators are white." The Times refers to research at the UCL Jill Dando Institute of Security and Crime Science, "which notes that victims are typically white girls aged 13 to 16 and that “most central offenders are Pakistani”". You appear to be conflating this distinction in an attempt to depict misconstruction of the source. Your claim that I did not cite on the talk page "other known models of child-sex offending in Britain, including child abuse initiated by online grooming, in which the vast majority of perpetrators are white" and this was a "blatant misrepresentation", when the topic at hand is appertaining specifically to child sex grooming, is invalid and relies on source misrepresentation of your own.

Moreover, this source was not used in any articles but was presented to you on the talk page in response to your request for evidence of linkage. This source clearly does discuss the issue of child grooming in relation to the British Pakistani community, and it was for that purpose that it was cited. You can use your crayons and colour away at the source; the fact remains that this source was provided to show that the ethnic patterns were discussed, contrary to your protests otherwise.Ankh.Morpork 16:09, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Calling the editor a liar and bigot is a couple of steps past incivility. You can't really expect him to keep working with you, and you can't reasonably use deliberate abuse to drive someone away from the topic. Why not let it sit for a few days and come back to it. Tom Harrison 15:57, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

er, i suggest you take a look at the mess ankhmorpork created on the british pakistani talk page. it's evident that he is a disruptive editor, as confirmed by other fellow editors.-- altetendekrabbe  16:01, 15 May 2012 (UTC)-- altetendekrabbe  16:04, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• There are mechanisms to deal with disruption. Verbal abuse isn't one of them. If AndyTheGrump isn't willing to take a voluntary break from the page, or at least agree not to impugn to stop impugning people's motives (especially with something as inflammatory as "bigot") I'd support an enforced break from the topic. Tom Harrison 16:16, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

The word "bigot" is not problematic if, in fact, the target IS a bigot. Forcing Andy to say the same thing in more words is no solution at all. The issue is not the use of one particular word. It's whether that word is justified in this particular case. Too many here think that being nice and avoiding certain words will make more more serious problems go away. HiLo48 (talk) 17:14, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Horseshit. Calling another editor a bigot is a blatant personal attack.Fasttimes68 (talk) 17:30, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

You just ignored half my post. I say again "Forcing Andy to say the same thing in more words is no solution at all." HiLo48 (talk) 17:50, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

He made those edits under duress? If not, then no response would have been better then the uncivil, personal attack.Fasttimes68 (talk) 18:11, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with this. I have interacted with Andy in the past and know that he truthfully speaks his mind; the insult are as a consequence to the perceived injustice. It is for that reason that I have presented sources, and will continue to so if necessary, that substantiate this linkage and dispel his claims of bigotry. It bothers me more that he thinks I'm a bigot than he actually called me one.Ankh.Morpork 17:25, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

It would be acceptable to say that specific edits appear to represent a bigoted point of view, or that a pattern of edits is promoting a biased viewpoint, but jumping around saying other editors are racist will always be inflammatory and be judged a likely personal attack unless the contributor in question explains that this is their personal motivation. --Fæ (talk) 17:47, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

On reviewing the diffs, I think AndyTheGrump's comments (here) are not acceptable. The best way to resolve this is for him to strike the offensive parts of those comments. We can all then assume good faith and move forward on the larger issues presented here. --regentspark (comment) 17:53, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• I think it is important to address the underlying issue here which in my view is User Ankmorpork's disruptive POV editing across a number of articles related to crimes that happened to be committed by Muslims or Arabs (e.g. Rochdale sex trafficking gang, 2012 Midi-Pyrénées shootings, 1929 Palestine riots). I think it would be a mistake only to sanction editors who have reacted to Ank's behavior without taking in to account that behavior. The result of such action would only be to enable AnkMorpork to carry on behaving as he is behaving which in practice means a total breakdown of normal editing process in these articles and constant administrative and dispute resolution filings. Dlv999 (talk) 16:34, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• Just to give a little background User:Dlv999 and User:AnkhMorpork don't see eye to eye in I/P conflict so this is main reason for his post only recently User:Dlv999 was blocked for edit warring.--Shrike (talk) 17:21, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with User:Tom harrison if some users feel that there are issues of WP:TE then there a relevant venues to deal with that.Violation of WP:NPA is not acceptable and there are no excuse for that.--Shrike (talk) 17:33, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Shrike, can you give us a list of who else that is involved in this dispute is also involved in disputes regarding I/P? And perhaps explain why those who otherwise seem largely to concentrate on that issue have suddenly taken an interest in sex crimes in Rochdale? As far as I'm aware neither Hamas nor the Israeli state have made any claims to the territory, and as such it would seem a rather off-topic subject to express an interest in unless one felt motivated by concerns other than contributing to a reliable and informative online encyclopaedia. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:35, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Do you feel that sex crimes in Rochdale is not encyclopedic topic?I myself didn't made any edits to this article.--Shrike (talk) 17:39, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

See the revision history of the British Pakistanis article . Shrike repeatedly reinserted the controversial material. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:57, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Shrike I beg you to assume good faith unless you have some evidence that my involvement here is malicious in which case you should present it. As you know my (24h) block for edit warring was because I was unaware that an article pertained to the IP conflict, so I don't see how it is relevant to this discussion or to what I have said about User Ankh. The reason I have commented is because I see a common pattern emerging between an article I am involved with (1929 Palestine riots) two other articles that are currently at dispute resolution (the article discussed here and 2012 Midi-Pyrénées shootings) and the related Rochdale sex trafficking gang article. AnkhMorpork with your vigorous support is involved in all these articles and in all of them the normal editing process has broken down. Now you can throw mud at me and everyone else, but there are three entirely distinct groups of editors you and Ank are disputing and there comes a point were it becomes unrealistic to blame everyone else for the problems and not look at your own behavior. Dlv999 (talk) 17:55, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Nordichammer

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Nordichammer - This sensitive issue is being inflamed by this vile user. Please see this. Ankh.Morpork 09:24, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Some kind of disruptive user that want to make WP:POINT that should be blocked could someone do a CU?--Shrike (talk) 09:29, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Template:CueNordichammer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) should be blocked for these slurs and racist comments . This is an SPA to disrupt and troll, nothing more. --lTopGunl (talk) 09:42, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree. I subsequently saw this comment and I request a CU, as there are reasonable grounds to suspect that somebody is deliberately aspersing my character.Ankh.Morpork 09:43, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I've indefed Nordichammer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for now. Sock or not, his edits are unacceptable. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:49, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

In light of this and this which seek to portray me as a racist by guilt through association, I request a CU on this user.Ankh.Morpork 09:59, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Take a look here too please

Admins involved in this matter might do well to take a good look at Rochdale sex trafficking gang and its Talk page. Thanks Roger (talk) 18:07, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. And it might be worth asking why the article claims to be citing The Times, while actually citing another source entirely: http://www.sunday-guardian.com, a website specialising in Indian topics and as such hardly the most obvious source, which makes a claim in a headline that "Most UK girl child abusers are British Pakistanis", while providing no evidence to support this (unsurprisingly, because no such evidence exists, since it is untrue). And why the article has to repeatedly refer to the faith and ethnicity of the individuals involved. It seems evident that this has been constructed as an attack piece on an ethnic minority, rather than as an encyclopaedic article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:33, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

by the way, here is a racist who is supporting ankhmorpork . i wonder why? the discussion on british pakistani page and on the dispute resolution page makes it clear that ankhmorpork is a disruptive editor. he uses dubious sources, adds badges of shame, and is disengenuous about what is written in the sources.-- altetendekrabbe  19:38, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

In light of continued references 12 to this drive-by racist (who happened to conveniently bundle together all the key words of AnkhMorpork, Paki and BNP) which seek to portray me as a racist by guilt through association , I repeat my request for a CU on this user.Ankh.Morpork 20:01, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Pity that they didn't carry out a CU on that editor, imho... Keristrasza (talk) 19:42, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

. user shrike made a fool out of himself. just like you.-- altetendekrabbe  19:46, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

"made a fool out of himself. just like you..." I presume that this is some form of insult you are aiming at me? Keristrasza (talk) 19:53, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

@Ankh It was already made and come out negative but the evidence I think is pretty damning.--Shrike (talk) 20:05, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

He continue to personally attack other users.When it will end?--Shrike (talk) 19:49, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• User:Altetendekrabbe got blocked by User:Bwilkins for personal attacks, he/she made. I think this must be an example for everyone involved in this issue and both the sides should move to WP:DRN for a peaceful discussion to sort things out. --SMS 20:50, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Nope, Smsarmad: The emotionality is unfortunate, but two editors stand accused of having skewed their selections from the available sources to try to falsely colour an entire ethnic group as having paedophilic tendencies. The Misplaced Pages community has a compelling interest in determining whether that accusation is true. This belongs right where it is. --OhioStandard (talk) 11:21, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

AnkhMorpork is substantially editing his comments after they have been responded to

With complete disregard to Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines AnkhMorpork is now substantially editing his comments after they have been responded to, making the entire thread impossible to understand in its correct order. At this point, I will once again ask that his behaviour be looked into, and that he be instructed to follow proper procedures, or cease editing on such matters entirely. It is impossible to engage in any constructive dialogue with such behaviour going on. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:30, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

You just approved the highlighting of material that I allegedly misconstrued, and now you are griping that I am editing my comments? Unbefuckinglievable. I wish to centralise my complaints, is there a way I can do this without incurring your ire? Ankh.Morpork 15:35, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you are totally Unbefuckinglievable. What do you think Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines are for? Decoration? AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:40, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Please help. The John Austin (songwriter) page should not have been deleted.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following article should not have been deleted:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/John_Austin_%28songwriter%29

All of the information contained in the article "John Austin (songwriter)" is factual. John Austin meets the notability requirements, having worked with many artists of notability, and having released publicly documented works for over 20 years. Paste Magazine has written feature articles on John Austin, and JA's album "Busted at the Pearly Gates" received an honorable mention in Paste Magazine as one of the most important albums of 2002. Please contact Paste Magazine's editor-in-chief Josh Jackson to verify.

Please restore the Misplaced Pages article "John Austin (songwriter)". Thank you.

98.117.242.142 (talk) 17:08, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

As this was deleted after community discussion, your next step is deletion review. Please ensure that you use appropriate arguments to sustain why the deletion was not as per policy (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 17:32, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I'll add that it's possible to have an admin copy the article into userspace for you if you'd like time to work on adding references to show notability before it's restored to Misplaced Pages space. Nobody Ent 18:19, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/John_Austin_%28songwriter%29

This article was deleted because the administrators overlooked 3rd party reliable sources that were better actually than the administrator's research seemed to show. Additional online references will be cited to support the notability of songwriter John Austin. Thank you. 98.117.242.142 (talk) 19:16, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Please go to deletion review. That is the appropriate place to ask for a review. Malcolmxl5 (talk) 19:50, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

User:67.134.35.66 vandalizing Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2012

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nothing major here, just adding silly garbage to paint Obama as a commie/socialist. See here for an example. Any chance we could get a semi protection for this page, or block this IP?JoelWhy (talk) 19:49, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I blocked all three of you for WP:3RR. Jauerback/_dude. 20:02, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

WP:3RRNO - "Removal of libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced contentious material that violates the policy on biographies of living persons (BLP)." JoeSperrazza (talk) 20:15, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Semi-protected until the day after election day. There has been some vandalism already, and the article is obviously going to attract a whole lot more, even with semi-protection. -Scottywong| soliloquize _ 20:07, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

WP:BLP violations are exempt from WP:3RR, and a facile attempt to compare Obama to Lenin, Stalin and Mao on the basis of a single-word slogan clearly comes under BLP. Those reverting this violation of policy should not have been blocked. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:10, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

This was a really stupid block. Jauerback should be admonished for this.--William S. Saturn (talk) 20:11, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Agree that this block was at best poorly thought out. We should not be blocking people for reverting obvious BLP violations. Bunnies! Leave a message 20:13, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

And JayJasper only made two reverts! Agree that the block of JoelWhy and JayJasper was completely incorrect (careless and stupid, really) and should be reversed immediately. Blocking first and asking questions later is very poor policy.--Loonymonkey (talk) 20:27, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

There's a reason this went down the way it did. Words have meaning. The edits were labeled vandalism. The IP was warned for vandalism. It wasn't vandalism. It was POV. It may have been BLP. And it certainly hit 3RR+. If the IP had been correctly warned in the first place there's at least a chance that he could have gotten the point before blocks were needed, and the other two editors would have been standing on firmer ground.--Cube lurker (talk) 20:20, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Sorry but I don't care how it was labelled while it was being reverted - it was a BLP violation on a very highly watched page. It needed to be reverted, and they were doing the reverting. You can't say that two editors who were working within policy, with clean block records, deserve blocks just because a reversion or warning was labelled wrongly. Bunnies! Leave a message 20:24, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't think they deserved blocks. And the info did need reversion. But they (or at least the OP) did screw up the process. If you tell the IP he's vandalizing, he's going to (righly) say "I am not!" If you say, "that's not neutral, let's talk about it on the talk page", there's at least a chance he'll listen. Doing things right at least gives success a chance before it gets messy.--Cube lurker (talk) 20:33, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with your point about communicating with the IP, but I think blocking them this way is rather worse. It makes it really difficult for editors to deal with BLP violations and the like if they can get blocked for it. Bunnies! Leave a message 20:38, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree in general. The suggestion I was typing before I edit conflicted with the blocking admins was a 3rr block for the IP, and a wrist slap + education for the OP. The OP had the good of the encyclopedia as a goal, but I do think that many of these issues get escalated because people are in vandal fighting mode and fail to try to communicate to the real person behind the IP. (To be clear I'm talking about misguided IP's like this and not the true vandal vandals.--Cube lurker (talk) 20:44, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• I've unblocked JayJasper, as he only made 2 reverts total. If there's a consensus that JoelWhy's reverts were in line with WP:3RRNO, then I'm happy to unblock him as well. -Scottywong| spill the beans _ 20:23, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Why is a supposedly "semi-retired" administrator making nine blocks in one day?--William S. Saturn (talk) 20:24, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

See my comment here . I recommend an unblock. JoeSperrazza (talk) 20:26, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

JoelWhy should be unblocked as well. Sure, it might have been more accurate to label it a BLP violation right off the bat (rather than the generic "vandalism") but that warrants a note on the talk page, not a block. As someone who takes BLP policy very seriously, I hate to see a good editor punished for following that policy. It's also troubling that Jauerback decided to just block several experienced editors without bothering to look at the edits in question and then immediately went offline. --Loonymonkey (talk) 20:46, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I would like to see JoelWhy unblocked. They were following policy, even if they made a mistake. I think the admin that committed this drive-by blocking needs a bit of a talking to. Bunnies! Leave a message 20:51, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• I've unblocked JoelWhy; this block lacked nuance. If editors are really supposed to stop reverting and discuss on the talk page the addition of the phrase "On April 30, 2012 the campaign announced that its slogan would be "Forward", which has been used by Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, and Vladimir Lenin in similar rallying situations", then we can pretty much give up on writing a serious encyclopedia. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:52, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Just to clarify, because that looks like a bit of a shot at me. I'm not talking about discussing the inclusion of such material. I do though think it's very important though to accurately tell the IP what it is he's doing wrong. It can even be through a template. There are many types for a reason. The vandalism one is great if someone's putting "penis" in the article. But the BLP one or NPOV one explain the policies that are actually being broken. It's not about entertaining the nonsense that he's trying to insert, it's about trying to make a legitimate try to stop the edit war before we're 6 deep in reversions.--Cube lurker (talk) 21:00, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

It wasn't intended as a shot at you, CL. What you're saying about telling the IP exactly what he's doing wrong makes sense. It was a criticism of a 3RR block on Joel. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:04, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I think we all agree that it wasn't technically vandalism, it was POV pushing. However, in either case, the BLP exemptions of 3RR apply. So, was it wrong to label it vandalism? Technically, yes. But is that mistake worth a block? -Scottywong| prattle _ 21:11, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Vandalism is defined as edits that damage the encyclopedia. So it's perfectly reasonable to call ridiculous comparisons to dictators "vandalism". However, it's better to be specific and say "BLP violation". That way there's no doubt about the reason for the revert. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:24, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

In hindsight, I agree that protecting the article would have been the best course of action, however I still stand by my actions. Most of the points have already been made above, so there's no sense in rehashing them. Although, I do have to comment on the question about why a "semi-retired" admin that made nine blocks today... Really? Jauerback/_dude. 23:42, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

If you stand by your actions that suggests you should have your admin privileges revoked since you'd repeat the injustice in a similar circumstance. It's inconceivable that your wouldn't even apologize to the editors you blocked. --William S. Saturn (talk) 00:19, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Jauerback, I believe I'm the only person in this thread who could possibly be (mistakenly) viewed as supportive of the block. If you're reading my complaint about JoelWhy's initial handling as siding with the block, please do not. Although I thought mistakes were made, in my opinion the blocks were heavy handed, and failed to recognize the totality of the situation.--Cube lurker (talk) 00:30, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

The admin was totally in the wrong issuing blocks to the registered users. The IP was making a rapid series of BLP-violating edits, and the registered users were trying to protect wikipedia. The admin's proper course of action would have been to (1) semi the page, to fend off the IP; and (2) revert the Stalin nonsense if necessary. It's to be hoped he's learned something from this situation. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:51, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm glad to see others refer to the BLP exception of WP:3RRNO. See this discussion: . I believe BLP applies to this article. JoeSperrazza (talk) 01:05, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

WP:BLP applies anywhere on Misplaced Pages - article, talk page, whatever. Or at least, it is supposed to... AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:52, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Poor edit summaries, too many reversions, slow to ask for help, 2/3 blocks poor, blocks fixed, all better. Perfection is not required (they let me edit, don't they?), only good faith. Let's all move on, shall we? Nobody Ent 01:45, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

The IP assaulted the article 6 times in 24 minutes. Maybe time enough to post an RFPP, but that page has been unreliable for quick action (as is this one, frankly), and protecting a BLP is top priority. Much more unsettling is the admin's continued lack of understanding of the issue. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:29, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

I really don't want to drag this out, but I'm inclined to agree about the unsettling aspect. I am not assuming bad faith of the blocking admin, nor do I think they should be desysopped, but this entire thread has been filled with people pointing out that the reverting was perfectly in line with WP:3RRNO and the BLP policy - which is an important policy. The fact that the only thing the admin has said is "I stand by my actions" is...just disheartening. A case of WP:IDHT? I dunno. I would feel a lot more comfortable if Jauerback at least recognised that the blocks were inappropriate. But I sense that's not coming, so maybe this should be closed. Bunnies! Leave a message 02:40, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

I think at the very least it would be reassuring to see the blocking admin acknowledge that the block of JayJasper was unambiguously incorrect. JayJasper had only reverted twice, so WP:3RR clearly doesn't apply, BLP or not. Probably just a simple mistake, but it'd be nice to know that a somewhat inactive admin understands 3RR fully. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on the block of JoelWhy, simply because he had reverted more than 3 times. -Scottywong| gab _ 03:06, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

• So, experienced editors who have contribute much to the project over the years work diligently to keep an IP editor's puerile "Obama iz a sekrit Marxist" crap out of an article, and they all get blocked for it? I made one revert myself in this affair before going off for the afternoon, guess I should feel lucky/blessed that I escaped this highly questionable form for collective punishment. This Jauerback does not appear to possess the ability to mediate difficult topic areas, and would serve the project best by staying far away from this one in the future. Tarc (talk) 03:06, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Tarc, it appears you were lucky indeed. You made one revert, which meant you were only one more revert away from being blocked for violation of 3RR. Or so it would seem. When I saw that "you are blocked for violating 3RR" after having made only two reverts - both of which were explained in the edit summary, the second giving a link to 3RR and urging the IP user to discuss the issue on the talk page rather than keep edit warring - I thought it had to be a joke or at least an honest mistake on the part of Jauerback. I must say it is disheartening to hear Jauerback say he "stands by" the action of blocking an editor clearly acting in good faith for 3RR infraction after only two reverts. And, for that matter, defending his block of JoelWhy, who was also clearly acting in good faith. Yes, he reverted more than 3 times, and perhaps could have used a better term than "vandalism", but it's clear that his intentions were to uphold the BLP policy and defend against blantant POV-pushing. In light of this, and that he is an established editor who has made valuable contributions to the project, shouldn't he (and I) at least have had warning before blocked? With all that said, the blocks were quickly revoked, so it could have been worse. I won't hold a grudge, but I will say to Jauerback, for future reference: could you please not make decisions like these so hastily? (as this seemed to have been), and do established editors - presumably acting in good faith - not deserve a fair warning before being blocked? Your consideration of this might well be of benefit to you and your fellow editors, as attested by the reaction to this incident.--JayJasper (talk) 04:14, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

• • Multiple errors were committed by multiple people. Unless a repeatable pattern can be established, there isn't really much more we can do here. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:21, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

As this is the second time in less than a month (see Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive748#What are legitimate grounds for a precipitate block for edit warring.3F) that a very bad block has taken place it would be nice if admins investigating 3RR situations from now on would, at the very least, take the time to fully investigate what is going on before handing out blocks. Treating long time productive editors like dirt as they protect WikiP from IPs and SPA editors can only have a chilling effect on the community. Since making an apology seems so difficult to do it would be a good idea to prevent a situation where they should be issuing them. MarnetteD | Talk 03:26, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

If more admins will as you put it "take the time to fully investigate what is going on before handing out blocks" as a result of this and similar incidents, then this entire brouhaha will have served a constructive purpose.--JayJasper (talk) 04:22, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

It's also important to keep in mind that this is only liable to get worse, as the American presidential election approaches. In 2008, the candidates' articles (especially Palin) were constantly under siege from BLP-violators. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:59, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

• I think what's been done now is the right course of action: protect the article until after the election, and unblock the two people who tried to stop non-neutral information from being added pbp 04:21, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Unless the blocked editors receive an apology and/or the administrator in question is admonished, I see no reason to revert BLP violations. I have no desire to deal with being blocked by a trigger happy admin and then have to deal with the autoblock if a sensible admin comes around.--William S. Saturn (talk) 04:25, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

• Reckless block with no thought of helping the encyclopedia Jauerback is clearly in the wrong, but there is no requirement that mistaken admins be beaten until they confess so this discussion could be closed soon as the blunders have been rectified. Nevertheless, Jauerback's comments suggest that the same blocks would be issued in similar cases in the future, so some more grilling may be warranted. My main objection to this sort of rule-bound response is that admins should be helping the encyclopedia: if you see some editors edit warring (particularly when the editor has requested help on ANI!), you need to have at least a quick look at the issue before blocking. The reverts might be exempt from 3RR, or in questionable cases, some thought is required. In this case, an IP was repeatedly adding unsupportable stupidity to a political article—not covered by WP:VAND. Nevertheless, the reverting editors were obviously trying to help the encyclopedia, although they should have requested help earlier (WP:RFPP). Blocking editors who are doing the right thing wrongly is stupid—it sends the message that articles should not be defended against attacks. Protect the article and leave a helpful message at each editor's talk (they must not do that again, and a link to where they should go for help). If that's too much trouble, do nothing and let someone else handle it. Johnuniq (talk) 04:38, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
• I resent the self-righteous tone of some posters here, calling for blood like politicians in a scandal. We're above that, guys. That said, I really want some assurance from Jauerback that he wouldn't do the same in the future. Because if he doesn't see that his actions were wrong, then that's a problem. -RunningOnBrains 04:44, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Okay, after going over everything again, which is always so simple after the fact... I'll concede JayJasper did not break 3RR. I already stated that protecting the article would have been a better option, however that doesn't excuse the edit warring over content. That's the part everyone seems to be missing. It wasn't vandalism and it's questionable whether it was a BLP violation. Neither registered user was even consistent in their edit summaries on what they believed they were reverting. At one point both called it "vandalism", at another, both mentioned 3RR and taking it to the talk page or that it was against consensus. To me, that says "content dispute" all over it, not BLP and certainly not vandalism (from their point of view). In regards to BLP: Is it BLP? Are you sure? It's sourced content (whether it's RS is another issue for another board), but everyone keeps saying, "Oh noes! Barack Obama is being compared to Stalin. BLP! BLP!" If that's what happened, then I would agree, but IT DIDN'T. It was a content dispute over the use of a campaign slogan in comparison to Stalin, Mao, and Lenin in an article about Barack Obama's campaign... and it was sourced. If that's BLP, that's a stretch. Now if you want to argue BLP, please take that to the appropriate venue as it really doesn't belong here, but I had to use it to explain my actions. My goal was to stop the disruption, not add to the drama. Oh, for the record (not that it really matters), I initially found out about this issue through AIV. I only noticed it was brought here after that fact. Finally, if JayJasper says to me unequivocally that they would not have reverted further had the content been added again (before any blocks), I will AGF they are telling the truth and apologize. Outside of that, I won't participating further in this discussion as I doubt I will change any minds, anyway.Jauerback/_dude. 11:34, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

• What a deeply disappointing response. If anyone notices Jauerback making any more stupid blocks like this, please ping me, or any other admin with a modicum of judgment, and I'll undo it. --Floquenbeam (talk) 12:20, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Gotta agree with Floquenbeam. Based on the above statement, Jauerback still does not believe he did anything wrong, does not see a contentious edit primary-sourced to an opinion/punditry site is a BLP problem, and has AGF backwards. Not endearing qualities for an admin. And I'm someone who normally supports admin blocks for edit-warring; it simply wasn't called for here. — The Hand That Feeds You: 12:28, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

• OK, one more reason to quit this ridiculous bureaucratic cult masquerading as something vaguely useful. Misplaced Pages has its priorities entirely backwards, and self-serving admins incapable of actually appreciating the efforts of those trying to stop articles on politicians turning into graffiti-covered shithouse walls are one of the more obvious symptoms... AndyTheGrump (talk)
• As Andy says, the priorities are whacked out. If there were some "opinion" website likening Romney to Hitler, or likening the president to a monkey, I wonder if the admin would treat it any differently than he did with this? He either needs to take off his blinders or surrender his adminship. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:45, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
• I appreciate the quick unblock. For the record, had I been a bit more knowledgeable of certain Wiki policies, I likely could have avoided this entire situation. So, I definitely learned something here, which is good. And, I don't need Jaurback to apologize, I'm certainly not angry with him because of the block. That being said, I think he has displayed a real arrogance here that I find disturbing. I mean, the response to the block on JayJasper ("if JayJasper says to me unequivocally that they would not have reverted further had the content been added again (before any blocks), I will AGF they are telling the truth and apologize") is absolutely infuriating. I've long felt that one of the traits which distinguishes adults from children is an ability to admit ones mistakes. This rationalizing followed by the 'screw you guys, I'm going home' attitude demonstrates a real lack of maturity, IMO. And, if this same situation occurs with other editors on a less prominent page, I hate to think that he would be able to repeat this behavior with a fair bit of impunity.JoelWhy (talk) 12:46, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
• But none of the editors involved in the edit-war said anything about BLP. They were calling it vandalism. I suggest that the next time a dispute like this arises, editors should take the issue to WP:BLP/N. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:54, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

What 'edit war'? The reverts were entirely in line with policy, and with the interests of Misplaced Pages. Ok, someone used the wrong word to describe an attempt to fill Misplaced Pages with moronic crap, but so what? Infantile... AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:58, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

To clarify, when I mentioned above that I could have avoided the entire situation, I mean that if I had indicated BLP in my reverts I think I could have prevented this entire situation. That is clearly my fault (and, a learning experience for me.) So, I'm not pretending I'm entirely blameless here.JoelWhy (talk) 13:05, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

(EC) AQFK when you defend Jauerback's block with that reasoninng, the more you damage that goal. There's definately a better way it could have been handled by JoelWhy. I've been vocal about that above. But using what could be a learning experience as justification for a poorly decided block is just going to elicit the reaction we see from ATG. The subjects need to be disconnected. How to better prevent edit wars with POV/BLP content is on one side, but totaly separate is button mashing blocks on good faith users without warning.--Cube lurker (talk) 13:12, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Ironically enough, I actually was warned. After engaging in the edits, User: Morphh was kind enough to inform me of my mistake on my talk page, noting "I'd hate to see you sanctioned for multiple reverts of something you thought was vandalism." I thanked him on his talk page, stopped doing the reverts, but about 15 minutes I was blocked. So, clearly some editors understand how to take a common sense approach to resolve an issue...JoelWhy (talk) 13:20, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

NE gets on the soapbox

(edit conflict × many)Big picture: what we have here are three editors trying to make Misplaced Pages better: JoelWhy and JayJasper by reverting bogus edits and requesting community help, and Jauerback by blocking edit warring editors. Mistakes were made. We have a "bright-line" 3rr rule that's stated unequivocally -- followed by a list of exceptions. Notably BLP, which states What counts as exempt under BLP can be controversial. Consider reporting to the BLP noticeboard instead of relying on this exemption.

We are resource limited: sometimes sneaky vandalism persists for days or weeks in articles, and we have periodic notices here and at AN about backlogs on admin boards. Yes, the blocks were inappropriate, but it's illogical to simultaneously fret about both admin backlogs and admins not taking enough time before taking action, or previously inactive admins finding time to volunteer. It's illogical to be concerned with a shortage of admins and savage existing admins when they pooch things up. This concept that editors who screw must be badgered into mea culpas is childish. I read once -- when reading The Art of War was in vogue in business circles -- that it talks about always allowing an opponent a graceful exit. We've communicated fairly clearly to Jauerback our disappointment with this particular decision. What's important is not whether they engage in some junior "shaking hands" ritual but how they execute admin responsibilities in the future. Giving an editor time and space to mull things over is frequently more effective than repeated verbal pounding.

A sample size of one is too small to seriously consider resignation demands. If you feel Jauerback's action makes them unworthy of a sysop, file an ArbCom case. Otherwise let's put the sticks down. Nobody Ent 13:26, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

WP:EHP touches on this. Equazcion 13:31, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.--Cube lurker (talk) 13:35, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

That doesn't change the fact that it's human nature. You might appreciate similar understanding the next time you fuck up. Equazcion 13:37, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

I fuck up all the time, I also know how to say "My bad, I'll try not to do that again."--Cube lurker (talk) 13:44, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Do you? That's exceedingly easy to say now when you're not the one under the lamp. He conceded already that other courses of action would've been better. There's no need to continue demanding some specific answer that meets your standards. This is done. Equazcion 13:57, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Me too. Mistakes happen. But some people will only go so far in acknowledging mistakes. I am assuredly on the side that blocking the 2 registered accounts was a mistake. Perhaps we should have Obama/Romney related pages semi-protected until November 7th. Or maybe it's too soon for that. Let's also remember that Obama pages are under a 1RR(article probation), and technically editors can be blocked after 2 reverts. So if an anon IP makes edits that are clear violations of Wiki policies, one can go to the 3RR board and report it, then ask for page protection(if an editor deems the IP persistent enough to hop to other IPs). Jauerback should have looked more clearly at the situation and made a better call, but it's not worth an ArbCom case or a DeSysOp. I hope William, Bugs and everyone else continue to patrol the pages on their watch lists and revert BLP violations. Along with vandalism. I think this thread shows that if an Admin does make a mistake, the community(along with clear eyed Admins) will rectify it. I move for a close to this thread. Dave Dial (talk) 14:01, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Me, too, and this trait makes Misplaced Pages a better place. I also know that expecting others to have the same personality characteristics is another way of fucking up, and expecting that they do doesn't make Misplaced Pages a better place. Nobody Ent 14:18, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Meh, I've got nothing more to say after this, but there's a learning experience all admins should heed. Jauerbeck could have ended this thread at 1/3rd it's length with a simple 'sorry'. And he would have lost far less respect than he has now.--Cube lurker (talk) 14:11, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

organise

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I think that the use of the word Organise should be changed to Organize, as it is more internationally acceptible. THX, Ax1om77 (talk) 20:04, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

WP:ENGVAR. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:09, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. However, does that harm or help my arguement? thx, Ax1om77 20:16, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) As Lothar points out, we have a policy already that addresses variations in spellings such as that between "Organize" and "Organise". Also, this noticeboard isn't here to decide content issues, but to address pressing issues that need administrative attention. If you feel that ENGVAR should be changed, you probably want to open a discussion at the Village pump. Hersfold non-admin 20:18, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

P.S. - If your proposal applies to a single article, be sure to read and understand ENGVAR, and then bring it up on the article's talk page. Hersfold non-admin 20:20, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much, i'll take my arguement there :) THX, Ax1om77 20:21, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

No, please don't. That would be unwise. This is the many-versions-of-English Misplaced Pages, and that particular point has been argued a million times. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 20:29, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

OK, I won't. THX, Ax1om77 20:33, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Mass WP:BOOKSPAM / WP:REFSPAM by BoxingGoMan

First reported here> Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam#Lineage_Unbroken

Account

BoxingGoMan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · Spamcheck · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam)
Appears BoxingGoMan is mass reference spamming a book, and adding it to hundreds of article.

• ""Lineage Unbroken: The Complete Lineal Tracing of World Heavyweight Championship Boxing (Post-Marciano Era) 1956–2003"" http://books.google.com/books/about/Lineage_Unbroken.html?id=MxqatgAACAAJ

Need Some eyes on this one, seems is also claiming discrimination and prejudiced against other users.--Hu12 (talk) 20:20, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

The reference used is legitimately in range, as being the source of information added on, even if it is from one single source. No meaningful harm in any way whatsoever has ensued, except for harrassment from a user who was told to "stop", but declined to listen. Further fabrication from that very user is on that user's talk page, as well as not even being a member of WikiProject:Spam. Please check for yourself. Thank you. --BoxingGoMan (talk) 22:12, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Your contributions to wikipedia consist entirely of adding links to this book and is considered WP:Spam. In particular it is WP:REFSPAM because the additions are just Mass spammed and don't appear to verify articles content. It has become apparent that your account and IP's are only being used for promotion in apparent violation of Conflict of interest or anti-spam guidelines. Misplaced Pages is NOT a "repository of links" or a "vehicle for advertising". It would appear the book is self published, which would make it also fail Misplaced Pages's core content policies:

• ”Verifiability”
  • ” Questionable_sources”
  • "Verifiable Reliable Sources"
  • ”Self-published sources (online and paper)”
• ”Reliable sources”
  • ”Self-published sources”

You're here to improve Misplaced Pages -- not just to promote "Lineage Unbroken" right? --Hu12 (talk) 23:49, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Alright. I'll undo all the referenecs then that I added, but not the WikipediaBooks I created, that really is improvement. I appologise for any inconvenience, and ask that the user who disrespects me to leaves me alone and stays away. Otherwise, no problems! --BoxingGoMan (talk) 00:13, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

It does appears you are the Author of Lineage Unbroken: The Complete Lineal Tracing of World Heavyweight Championship Boxing (Post-Marciano Era) 1956-2003. It also appears that you have solicited a couple of wikipedia users to purchase it, by asking them to "check out" your book, and posting your amazon affiliate link on their talk pages (here and Here). you have also breached WP:CIV by accusing another user, who in good faith tried to discuss your edits, of " discriminatory and prejudised biased info that directly attacks me", then continued the attack on the users page here.--Hu12 (talk) 00:23, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Content vandalism

• User:201.19.98.94 has put false information into the Whatever Works article, (diff) as well as the Vicky Christina Barcelona article. He/she has made a number of edits to other articles (contribs) as well - these articles need checking for similar vandalism. I filed this report at WP:AIV, but that page isnt working properly, and WP:VPM but no response. Regards,-Stevertigo (t | c) 20:49, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
• AIV report filed. Nobody Ent 21:30, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

  The vandal has also edited, quite prolifically, as 201.19.149.30 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 201.19.158.129 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), and possibly other IP addresses. There is a lot to be cleaned up still.  --Lambiam 23:50, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
  It looks like this has been going on for almost a year: 201.19.99.47 · 201.19.99.65 · 201.19.99.82 · 201.19.99.99 · 201.19.141.128. And that may not yet be all.  --Lambiam 00:14, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
  Update: It looks like the vandal has edited from maybe as many as 800 to 900 different IP addresses in the 201.19.*.* range for over a year, making several thousands of edits inserting false information. I've started to compile a list, but have to stop for now. Any suggestions on how to deal with this?  --Lambiam 03:18, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

• Good catch, but Oh man.... this looks automated, and dastardly sneaky because all the "content" looks reasonable--the added production companies are real production companies Wikilinked to real articles, the added actors are real with reasonable-sounding names, etc. I am not an admin but I'd bet an IP range block will be in order, and that'll help shut down the damage... until the vandal switches ISPs or moves. Then there's the cleanup. Zad68 03:28, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Ugh. They do all locate to Rio de Janeiro and some of the edits are like those of long time sock master Pé de Chinelo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Even if it isn't that blocked editor I know that I have come across one or two other examples of this low level vandalism recently (though I can't remember the IP range - apologies) - if it continues a rangeblock would be nice if possible and, perhaps, we should notify the filmproject to be on the lookout for this editing pattern. MarnetteD | Talk 03:40, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks everybody for chiming in and taking this vandal down. I caught this because I had just seen Whatever Works and checked the article. I found Diane Keaton listed in the cast when I didn't recall her being in the film. It would have seemed natural to have Diane Keaton in a Woody Allen film, wouldn't it? Have fun tracking down all the damage this guy has done. Regards, -Stevertigo (t | c) 04:30, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Who would like to do their good deed for the day?

Please see and the chap's talk page. Basically a Syrian good-faith user can't edit due to that bastard government's bastardly internet censorship. I understand that any admin can grant IP block exemption (if I'm incorrect please tell me) so I've brought it here as no one has noticed it where he put it after a few hours. Egg Centric 21:36, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually it looks like I have misread it as he needs it for proxy exemption which may need steward attention. I will keep this thread here in case I'm doubly wrong and an admin can sort this out, and post on the steward's board. Egg Centric 21:39, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I will go talk to the user soon after some food, and offer them IPBE per standard practice (after a CU, also standard practice). A global exemption is only needed for a global block. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 21:51, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Building a shrine?

User Plum90 (talk · contribs) has been tagging a large number of IP userpages as socks of a blocked user, with virtually no other edits. It's possible that the user only means to help, but it's probably more possible that Plum90 is connected to the blocked user and is attempting to build a shrine of some sort. I'd appreciate some input or differing points of view, please. --Bongwarrior (talk) 21:39, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I very much doubt it's a shrine as such, at least not to a real vandal... he just seems to have tagged every IP that edited James Randi, pretty much indiscriminately. Which hardly makes him a good faith editor. I suppose since it doesn't really "matter" that he should be given a chance to explain himself before he gets blocked, but I don't think he's gonna be around for long...Egg Centric 21:52, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Not just James Randi, various religion related articles, on second looks... (but seriously, look at the edit history of the Randi article - every IP at least on the first page has been tagged by this guy) Egg Centric 21:55, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

For example - Christianity - he's gone back to 2010 from when it was not protected, and although he's missed a couple at the very end of IP editing before the protection, pretty much every IP as he goes down the list he's also started tagging. This is most peculiar. Egg Centric 22:00, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Did anyone consider asking Plum90 what they were up to before bringing it to ANI? Reyk _YO! 22:17, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I considered it. I decided against it. --Bongwarrior (talk) 22:26, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

You don't realize what that Caleb Murdock is up to. We have to stop him before he ruins Misplaced Pages.-Plum90 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:27, 15 May 2012 (UTC).

Please explain to us what he is up to. You might also explain how he edits from all over the world. MarnetteD | Talk 23:32, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

The first result on google seems to suggest that he is "up to" growing a considerable, but not remarkable (by wikipedia standards) neckbeard. Why is that a worry? Egg Centric 23:36, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Ironic, since the sixth result on google shows him reviewing an electric razor on Amazon. Now that doesn't add up at all... Dybeck (talk) 23:49, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Murdock is very clever. He has learned how to log onto Misplaced Pages from any IP in the world (or almost). He is inserting false informaton from these IPs and doing a great deal of damage to the encyclopedia.-Plum90 (talk) 23:38, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Please provide differences of how these IPs have done any of the things you are accusing them of. For any admins looking into this I made User:BullRangifer, who originated the original sockpuppet case, aware of this thread in hopes that they can shed some light on this. MarnetteD | Talk 23:45, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the notification. I'm sure this is much more interesting than it appears to me, since I've arrived after all the evidence has been destroyed. That's one thing that disturbs me. There is too much blanking of history in many venues. We can't learn what's happened, so we can't learn to recognize the vandals and socks when they reappear. Will someone at least give me some clue about what's been happening? Has he been using many IPs again? -- Brangifer (talk) 04:08, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Admittedly, a fair number of those edits are vandalism, but let's face it, most IP edits probably are, after all it's damn good fun vandalising, due to it increasing your virility and attractiveness to the fairer sex. But what about edits like this? Why is this devious Murdock fellow so interested in adding miscellanea trademarks by some obscure fellow with three valid looking references? Does he also control the entire internet? Egg Centric 23:46, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

80% of vandalism is by IPs, but only 20% of the edits by IPs are actually vandalism. The majority are good faith edits. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 00:31, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

• What's the magic word for batch deleting all a user's page creations? Twinkle (or some other script I have installed) has d-batch, but that only works on a list of pages in a category or linked on a page, it isn't available on his contributions page. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:56, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

WP:Nuke? - SudoGhost 00:02, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that's the one. Thank you, SudoGhost. Pages nuked. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:09, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to Tide Rolls for blocking this editor and I was about to ask if all their tagging should be reverted but Floquenbeam beat me to it so thanks to you as well. MarnetteD | Talk 23:58, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

If this was like, a week ago, I'd be all like... awww, floquenbeam, can't we have any more fun with this troll. But given the last 48 hours, I'm all like, thanks for teaching that bugger a lesson flo, and if I was a lady I'd TOTALLY have your babies Egg Centric 00:12, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm honored (and slightly alarmed), but have to graciously decline. For now, anyway. It's not you, it's me. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:36, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

It is fairly obvious to me that Plum90 (talk · contribs) is a sock of Caleb Murdock (talk · contribs). JoeSperrazza (talk) 01:11, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

• I just blocked an IP at RFPP who was signing as Caleb Murdock, FWIW, vandalism at User talk:EdJohnston. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 02:04, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

User:TenPoundHammer

I've been reading through a few of the recent Webcomic AfD's including a few in the archives, and just about every single AfD that TenPoundHammer has started (and there are many among the recent ones) claims that there are either no good sources included in the articles, or such sources if they exist are always spurious, trivial, and/or non-notable. Some articles have been nominated for deletion multiple times by TenPoundHammer, and every single one of the current AfD's in discussion has been started by TenPoundHammer. I have to question this user's motives in regards what appears to be both a one-man crusade on (and an incredible assumption of bad faith towards) webcomics and webcomic-related articles. At a minimum, TenPoundHammer should not be allowed to repeatedly nominate webcomic articles for deletion. Veled (talk) 03:22, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

The question to ask is, how many of the AFDs that TPH opens are closed as "keep". If most of them are, there may be a call for a user RFC to ask him to stop nominating these. But if TPH's record generally follow through on his recommendations for deletion, then there's no action. As long as he's not doing in massive bunches that are impossible to work though (I know there's a term that ArbCom used for this on an somewhat related case), there's no issue here. Either way, this is not an ANI matter. --MASEM (t) 03:35, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

That's usually referred to as fait accompli. Regarding a RfC, WP:Requests for comment/TenPoundHammer was closed about a week ago. Flatscan (talk) 04:24, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

That's the term I was looking for. --MASEM (t) 05:55, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

What Masem said. Drmies (talk) 03:40, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

What Drmies said. SummerPhD (talk) 04:13, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Pardon me, but what (asketh EEng) said Drmies? EEng (talk) 05:48, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

"What Masem said. Drmies (talk) 03:40, 16 May 2012 (UTC)"

Nil Einne (talk) 06:14, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

I guess I need new glasses. EEng (talk) 14:11, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

TPH has recently been at RFC/U over just this issue. He denied there was a problem, abused other editors for suggesting that there was, then grudgingly accepted that he would be more careful in the future.

Evidently an empty promise. Andy Dingley (talk) 08:59, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

"Evidently" implies evidence. Do you have evidence that TPH didn't conduct due diligence before these AfDs? The RfC was a predictable pile-on whose partipants could have been divined well in advance. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:08, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Do not attack other editors at that RFC by, like TPH, assuming their motives and with your "could have been divined well in advance" comment implying that their comments were literally prejudicial in being pre-judged before any consideration of the evidence presented at that RFC.

At the RFC AfDs, we had the list of Viz characters, where these 50+ articles were listed for deletion at more than one a minute. As that is generally agreed to be faster than humanly possible with any sort of research or consideration of the article issues, these were either AfDs based on no research, or they were based on the assumption that "there are no notable Viz characters" and then working through the entire category on that basis.

With these Webcomics AfDs, we see a nomination for each one that is a variant of "It has been at AfD before, I didn't like it then and I don't see any changes". The corollary to that is of course that is has passed AfD once and if nothing has changed, one might expect it to pass again. I see nothing on any of these AfDs that TPH has followed his grudging promise to look harder in the future. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:32, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Is it axiomatic yet that any time an editor's actions are referred to as a "crusade" that the action is at very worst borderline and in actual fact a very useful bit of hard work in most cases? Doubly so where said crusade involves AfD. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 08:14, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

• I agree, not an ANI issue. I have to confess that I like Hammer, even if he is a bit quicker to go to AFD than I am. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 08:58, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Are you saying he suffers from Premature Evaluation? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 09:33, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

• Had a read through the AFDs in that link and TPH does make sense that the webcomics fail GNG. I see no bad faith in nominating those articles. Blackmane (talk) 09:13, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

• Regardless of the case here specifically, we really should start a discussion in Village Pump Policy to see getting it added to Afd rules that users are not allowed to nominate articles for AfD twice in a row. There's too much possibility for gaming the system this way to try and get an article deleted on the off-chance of getting a bad turnout at a subsequent AfD. Silverseren 09:15, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
  • No. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:25, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
  • So as long as I use meat/sockpuppets the first time, I never have to worry about you nominating my article twice? Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 12:26, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
  • I would strongly oppose such bureaucratic wankery. Tarc (talk) 12:56, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Imposing such a restriction would be very unhelpful. Just because some editors may be considered to be re-nominating inappropriately does not mean that we should prevent anyone from doing so. Also, Misplaced Pages emphatically does not need yet more rules. The gradual instruction creep over the years has made Misplaced Pages more confusing and intimidating for new users, but has not improved the encyclopaedia significantly, if at all. JamesBWatson (talk) 13:47, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
  • As with others, I do not see a problem this proposed red tape is intended to solve. Resolute 14:15, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Deletion_review/Log/2012_May_1#User:Cla68

Could an uninvolved admin close this DRV when they get a chance? Its been open for over two weeks now, and hasn't had any comments in several days. Its been open so long that it isn't even showing up on the recent discussions section. Apologies if this isn't the right place to bring this. Umbralcorax (talk) 03:37, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards