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This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination: Keep, March 25, 2011, see discussion. Delete, January 7, 2008, see discussion.

Birth

I've removed his date of birth as I can't find any mention of his birth online. The article stated he was born in North Carolina, yet he doesn't appear in the civil registration for that state. --Squirelewis (talk) 19:58, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Political Affiliation?

There's no mention at all. He's a pretty passionate activist and such articles describe political leanings first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.106.165.181 (talk) 06:49, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Zeitgeist itself points out that politics are part of the problem. Therefore, any label would be used against him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.203.220.65 (talk) 07:34, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

He has no political affiliation by his own admission. See the Zeitgeist Movement Guide PDF Flowersforparis (talk) 06:59, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Citations

I currently don't know enough about wikipedia but the citation that is missing about his mother shaping his world view is sourced here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIINgQ1TooE&NR=1 at around 1:20 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.145.226.169 (talk) 16:44, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

What are your sources for your allegation? I have watched both of his films, read numerous papers by and about him, and listen to his radio addresses often and I have never seen or heard anything that would suggest that he is a racist. I would say that his words and especially his actions say the exact opposite. Also, as the article states, Perter Joseph is his first and last name. If you have legitimate information (negative or positive) please share it. Accusations based on fear are counterproductive. 198.179.142.6 (talk) 23:13, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

"Peter Joseph" is not a pseudonym, but his first and middle name--he's P.J. Merola, who has been profiled in the Village Voice: http://www.villagevoice.com/2004-05-25/nyc-life/big-brothers/ Lippard (talk) 21:20, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

There is no evidence except circumstantial that the Village Voice article is him and Misplaced Pages is not a "detective" blog and heresay isnt applicable 76.169.62.86 (talk) 03:10, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Merola is only sourced on hate blogs and Peter has never stated his last name. UNtil he does so, claims are hersay 76.169.62.86 (talk) 03:09, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

This single, unsubstantiated allegation of anti-Semitism is what the banner disputing the page's neutrality is about? If that's all there is, then the banner should be removed because it slurs a living person unfairly.

The above comment has a small, factual mistake that is already corrected in the article's "Early Life" section. The comment says that "Peter Joseph is his first and last name," but the Early Life section states that they are his first and middle name and that his last name is withheld to protect the safety of himself and his family.Peter (talk) 04:30, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Since his last name as been revealed publicly and is stated in the wiki, and he prefers to be professionally known as Peter Joseph, he should be referred to as Peter Joseph as that is the name he uses in all his professional work. (someone)

Well, in this case his full name should be mentioned and the fact his professional name differs from his real name. Mon Jan 31 20:31:23 CET 2011

His full name is only speculation. If you can find a quote by Peter where he states his full name, then you have a right to include it. Otherwise, it runs the risk of hearsay. 3rd party "invasions of privacy" which claim such thing is not valid. Peter Joseph is Peter Joseph. First and middle or not. That is the entity in question here anyway. Flowersforparis (talk) 07:04, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Notability issues

"The Zeitgeist Movement" has a history of inflating their notability in Misplaced Pages coverage. For a "movement" that is mostly an online phenomenon, this is of course not surprising. We still need to deal with it somehow. Peter Joseph is the spiritus rector behind this movement. I suppose the movement itself is somewhat notable, at least there are a bunch of online press articles about it. Peter Joseph can just get a section in that article as the founder/leader. I don't see any reason for a full biography article. --dab (𒁳) 12:30, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm really getting annoyed of the 'Notability' issues - every whatsoever stupid tv-show gets its own wikipedia page and description of episodes (hey, this is all fictional stuff) and a real world stuff has to proof to be notable - first remove all the tv show episode description before raising 'notability' issue of a real world event/person, not just here, but all other pages (this goes to the hired Misplaced Pages staff/editors). Mon Jan 31 20:26:53 CET 2011 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.4.86.152 (talk) 19:28, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Ironically, people who dispute the neutrality of this article are themselves very biased, they are either against the zeitgeist movement or what peter joseph has to say. i don't that's very fair. we need to protect this page separately from zeitgeist movement page. wikipedia is not for hate or bashing. if you are against zeitgeist movement then please try to hold that within yourself or punch a pillow but don't take it out here on wikipedia. thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.93.111.178 (talk) 04:51, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Peter is known globally and is active. There is no "Notability" problem at all and any Google search bring 100,000 results for his work and movement interests. The Film series is one of the most famous in the world, covered by press all over the world Flowersforparis (talk) 07:00, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

A person's birth name and what they choose to call themselves can differ and there is no problem with that under US law. He can call himself Madam X or the Great Booga-Booga and it has no moral or legal bearing. Please see the Misplaced Pages entry for Name Change

As for notability, I specifically turned to Misplaced Pages for more info on Peter Joseph after watching Zeitgeist for the second time. Anything that draws the views the Zeitgeist series does is notable. A Google search for "Peter Joseph" turns up a full page of results pertaining directly to him including images, the IMDB entry and a short documentary about him. So the 'lack-of-notability' charge is a non-starter.

My conclusion from this people biased against Zeitgeist and/or Peter Joseph are acting under the guise of WP exclusionists.

I will look again after this edit but the entry is disputed under NPOV not notability. I didn't see much talk pertaining to NPOV. So whomever is disputing needs to make their case because they haven't yet.

Netscr1be (talk) 22:54, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Anything that draws the views the Zeitgeist series does is notable. Lol. Please see WP:ENC. Misplaced Pages isn't intended as a traffic-generator for your community site or online project. I am not "biased against Zeitgeist" any more than I am biased against 4chan. 4chan gets an article, so fine, if Zeitgeist can amass comparable online notoriety, let it have its article. This does not mean we accept biography articles on the 4chan founder, or various 4chan admins. The same goes for Zeitgeist. This has nothing to do with "exclusionism", it just means one article per topic is enough, and that article-sprawl generated by a movement's followers should generally be avoided. --dab (𒁳) 11:53, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

More Information is Badly Needed

I came here hoping for information on Joseph, and there is barely anything. Obviously he is a rather large figure in the world these days, certainly to people online across the world.

His page should have a lot more on him, such as: what religion is/was he? What religion did his parents belong to? Besides art school, did he receive any other education? What organizations does he belong to? Is he a Democrat? How did he get into making films? Did he have social or political connections? How were these films received? Did they win any awards or receive attention of important figures? Is he married? Does he have children? Is he involved any more projects? Clearly he is a part of a group (the Zeitgeist Movement) who are hoping to revolutionize the world. How so? What are they planning and how are they planning to accomplish this? Is their organization centered somewhere? Have they made any key public rallies or protests? Are they affiliated with any other major groups?

The page is pretty pathetic at present. Neurolanis (talk) 23:11, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

nonsense, you are here to tout PJ, not "hoping for information". It isn't clear that WP:BIO is met. Sure, we can have an article about this, but people have been actively trying to inflate the notability of this "Zeitgeist" thing. Misplaced Pages isn't for that. Write a single article, but don't try to create a walled garden under Category:Zeitgeist. Either merge this article into the Zeitgeist one, or vice versa, I don't care, but I seriously do not think there is enough notability here to justify more than one article. --dab (𒁳) 10:01, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Peter has stated he prefers to be private. Most of the data is from zeitgeistmovie.com. This is fine for wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Flowersforparis (talk • contribs) 07:01, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, as someone who sometimes looks to Wiki for information I was in fact "looking for information". Indeed.

Are you tell me that Joseph has asked to stay private, even though he is a public figure, and Wiki has said okay to this? Wow, and here I thought this was a public encyclopedia... Neurolanis (talk) 21:50, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Joseph has stated that he wishes to have his last name private. The fact that people who advocate his ideal have been met with threats of physical harm and even death shows the reason why he wishes this. I can only speak from personal experience but that is just that, people advocating alternative social designs would rather have it that their personal lives and last names hidden from public site. This is to avoid people attacking him publicly and trying to make it so that way people do not try to harm others that are affiliated with them personally. Reason and Logic shall always prevail (talk) 04:33, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, I can appreciate that. Although I disagree with his proposals, the world is in crisis and does need solutions. No doubt large and powerful corporate interests would not take kindly to some of his ideas, since their drive for "progress" (and the greed of the public for many cheap products and services) is destroying the world of which we are dependent on for survival. Neurolanis (talk) 15:52, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

History of vandalism

I have noticed that their has been a great deal of vandalism by a number of users on this page. One of the more recent has been done by a user with the IP number 109.125.1.225 and his vandalism was adding the supposed last name of Peter being Merola (see here) and the description tag give of the article as Conspiracy-based without any adequate reasoning nor any thread to justify it (see here). User with IP number 82.69.149.142 has also engaged in the same tactic with the conspiracy theory category (see here). After going through this user's history, he seems to have a consistent and especially a recent one of vandalizing numerous pages that are related to this one in subject. The amount of pages he has vandalized are so numerous that one just needs to view his history to see that this person has constantly vandalized even non-Peter Joseph related pages (please review his history here and come to your own conclusion. It is expressed conclusion based on this user's contribution is that he is a troll). The user SmackBot has also engaged in the same exact thing within regards to the conspiracy theory categorization of the films without the means of substantiation (see here). Now I would like to make it known that it may not actually be the expressed means of vandalizing this page and may have been on an honest mistake on his part due to the review of the history. I am just letting it be known that this can in fact be counted as vandalizing a page without any adequate given information and substantiation as to why the category conspiracy need be applied to his films due to the heavy connotation that conspiracy theory plays in today's culture (please see Conspiracy Theory for information on this).

Note for those wondering, I am doing this mainly to have a category to allow for the history vandalization of this page and to track anyone who engages in the act of such. I have taken the liberty to undo the damage by those who apparently have engaged in this act and perhaps reach a consensus on what changes could constitute as vandalism or not of this page.Reason and Logic shall always prevail (talk) 11:48, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

In my view it is not "vandalism" to give an article subject's real name rather than a pseudonym. Come on, if a person is notable enough for a Misplaced Pages article, he is also notable enough to have their real name revealed to the public. Either be a private citizen, without wiki bio, but with a right to privacy, or be a public figure with wiki bio, but no privacy.

What is "vandalism" is the constant removal of cleanup tags which point out that a bunch of self-published urls and two online newspaper articles are not nearly enough to satisfy WP:BIO. This page should just redirect to The Zeitgeist Movement until someone bothers to present a rationale how this is supposed to satisfy our inclusion guidelines. If Peter Joseph is notable, he is notable for having produced a crappy 9/11-truther-cum-Christ-Myth documentary which caused a ripple in the blogosphere. I do not think this satisfies our inclusion guidelines. If you disagree, then you can hardly argue that the "conspiracy" tag was misplaced. I have no idea whether the private citizen behind this persona has any interest in conspiracies, but our article is supposed to be about the public persona, which is WP:1E-notable for having dabbled in the conspiracy-mongery industry. --dab (𒁳) 11:47, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

There is a lot of confidence on certain anti-conspiracy sites that Peter Joseph here is Peter Joseph Merola the marimba player. Peter Joseph's own reluctance to gain personal publicity (possibly to gain an air of mystery) thus receives a lot of mocking, while Zeitgeist followers get twitchy whenever anyone mentions "Merola". However, there does not seem to be unequivocal evidence, or at least the kind of evidence that wikipedia can use, that his full name is Peter Joseph Merola and that he actually is the marimba player. So I'd go with innocent edit, not vandalism; in any case, it's more complicated than you present. There's an argument for merging this page with Zeitgeist: the Movie, but your tone is not going to make you any friends.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 15:55, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

I am referring to it as vandalism based on the history of the people involved in the editing. If you've noticed that I have not just been harping on the fact people have been giving his name as Merola (a name for which he does not wish to be identified with as he has a method of protecting his families, the only people who use his last name are trolls, so that says something) but also the fact that these people are also engaging in a number of edits of the description tag. I do not have a problem with tags being given so long as they are edit's. If they want to add a tag the article which goes to Zeitgeist: The Movie then I will not give a rats ass about it. But if people want to create a tag saying that this is conspiracy-based then I will take issue, ESPECIALLY when the person in question who made the edit has a history of vandalism. Again, just see their history to understand what it is I am referencing. I have also stated that Smackbot probably did not intend for means of vandalism of this page. I am just stating that he should give adequate reasoning for adding the tag for relevancy, I also stated that it "can be" but not that it is vandalism. As for my tone, please express to me how one can sound or even seem condescending through means of text typing via a keyboard and behind a computer monitor (or in my case a tv)? I am also not here to make friends, I am here to make correct edit's and add to the content of Misplaced Pages.Reason and Logic shall always prevail (talk) 12:21, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

You talk as if you know Peter Joseph personally.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 13:44, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

You don't have to know someone personally to know that Peter is keeping his last name secret so he an protect his family and friends that have nothing to do with the movement. Whether those fears are valid or not is not what this is about, it is about the FACT that people have professional names and they have personal names and they go by these to protect themselves and their identity in their work. This also happens as a means of the activists or actors themselves changing their names legally to their personal public persona's. However the point should be made that no citation can be found that bears his name has been found and can be used as credibility other than simply guess work from a couple of online articles. I also do not know the legality of this issue either so I do not want any legal ramifications for Misplaced Pages in the off-chance (slim as it may be) that he get's murdered because of his name being found out because it was added on Misplaced Pages. So I am also trying to make sure that the people who host this site do not have a legal lawsuit on their hands either from Peter or a group who is going on their behalf on the slim chance of being murdered. Reason and Logic shall always prevail (talk) 09:58, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

well, people will have to make up their mind on what they are claiming.

1. either PJ is a person of public interest. In this case, he would pass the WP:BIO notability threshold and qualify for a Misplaced Pages bio article, but it would also mean that his family name, which has been reported in third-party sources, is a point relevant to his biography and belongs in the article
2. PJ is not an individual of public interest, and he does not pass Misplaced Pages's notability threshold. As such, he enjoys a certain right to privacy, and his family name should not be thrown around on the wiki, precisely because like him it is of no public interest.

I have long argued the latter. PJ is WP:1E notable, as the founder of the so-called Zeitgeist Movement. It is enough to mention him in a brief paragraph over there. Neither his family name, nor his early life, nor his biography in general is of any encyclopedic interest whatsoever. --dab (𒁳) 11:19, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

merge unjustified, smells of censorship

Someone replaced the page with redirect, on a bogus premise of merge (yet no mention of the person is made in the article it has been redirected to). this is completely unjustified. Merge is not justified as there is a lot of material that is relevant.

If you want the article removed, you will have to use vote for deletion procedure (where you have to prove that it fails notability). good luck with that. this way of sidetracking the issue is both dishonest and pushy. if a person is notable he deserves an article. if he is not, take it to vote for deletion. merging without procedure for this is completely unjustified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.198.200.203 (talk) 23:07, 14 December 2011 (UTC) I now see that article vas on vote for deletion twice - once, 3 years ago, it was deleted. Second time, in march this year, it was voted keep (complete concensus). obviously, in the meantime, his notability increased. Vote was keep and no suggestion to merge. Hence, merging was completely POV push, against concensus! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.198.200.203 (talk) 23:21, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

What about his last name?

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Merola-PJ.htm This site seems to have a picture that is clearly him. Is this enough? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.47.224.175 (talk) 21:55, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

That is him, considering two of those pictures were also used in the 50min interview called "Who is Peter Joseph?" and these were in fact forwarded to him (as the creator actually explained as a rumor started going around saying that the creator was Peter Joseph himself). But his means of identifying himself is in fact using his first and middle name, I don't know what Misplaced Pages's policy is on this though. Reason and Logic shall always prevail (talk) 11:17, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

fyi http://www.whoispeterjoseph.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.36.157.248 (talk) 23:02, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Is there a written summary of the video anywhere? — Jeraphine Gryphon  23:28, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

There is no viable source for this information, only speculation from anti-peter joseph groups. Misplaced Pages is not an "exposing" platform. It can only work based on provable information. Peter Joseph would have to publicly state and publish his last name for it to be viable. Just as he would have to do for any personal details Reinventor098 (talk) 00:40, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

To be fair, this doesn't come from an anti-Peter Joseph website or a group and the bio was created in May 2007, which was a month before Peter released Zeitgeist: The Movie and before he got the mass attention that he has now. Especially if you look at this link here: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVP/Merola.htm. It lists his recordings and his company he uses and this is all before his "rise to stardom" for lack of a better term. Now keep in mind Reinverntor098 that I am not of the anti-TZM or anti-Peter Joseph crowd, I admire his work and am apart of the movement. I am simply stating that, yes this is him and yes it seems to be a credible source. But whether or not the source is enough to verify him as PJMerola, I have no clue. It would be to me that him being Merola is fine considering this bit of evidence here (it was before that for a reason I will not say but was revealed to me accidentally). However my standard of evidence is not the standard of evidence wikipedia requires. I suggest you go over their standard of evidence for identifying someone by their personal name in a biography before adding it. Reason and Logic shall always prevail (talk) 15:07, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

That particular source is not a sufficiently reliable source for that particular claim. — Jeraphine Gryphon  17:13, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

You should at least mention that Peter Joseph isn't his real (full) name. Mr. Joseph admits to this in the Q&A section of the Zeitgeist Movement's website: http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/qa.html. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.224.160.223 (talk) 20:01, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Added a note. — Jeraphine Gryphon  20:16, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Vision Section

Apologies to EKJ, his edit was not in violation of WP policies on translation because he did not remove the key sentence clarifying that the TheMarker Television interview is in English, following a brief Hebrew intro. The original edit by Str1977 was in violation because it removed the key sentence. This is a moot point because then Str1977 studied the WP policies (posted on my user talk page) and modified his edits accordingly. This is not to attack anyone or to find faults. This is just to apologize to EKJ and to clarify and explain an old, moot, and by now obsolete point. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 21:29, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

The article shouldn't be a coat rack for the zeitgeist movement. Tom Harrison 14:28, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree it should not be a coatrack. The recently added vision section is pretty much a promo piece that is p.o.v. script for Zeitgeist. Removing that again. Earl King Jr. (talk) 01:06, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Many articles in WP about a person contain some sort of section discussing their ideas/ vision. For example, Jacque Fresco, and many, many other biographies. In contrast, from the current version of the article, it is impossible to know why the article exists at all. It merely lists Joseph's work in the style of a directory or a repository of links (to Joseph's films, to newspaper articles about PJ, to TV interviews, to TEDx appearances, etc). The article's infobox, and our secondary sources (e.g. TheMarker) correctly describe PJ as an activist. Thus, the article needs a discussion of how the items listed in the directory/ repository are related to Joseph's vision/ ideas/ philosophy that drive his activism. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 19:09, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Adding self sourced information is not a good idea. There is no indication of notability if a closed loop and walled garden of information is tossed up. Then it looks like simple o.r. and p.o.v. and promotion of a subject. As a member of the Zeitgeist group as your user page badge says, neutrality is something to be very careful about. Promotion of a subject through multiple non 2nd or 3rd. party references is to be avoided. It becomes a self grasping attempt at notability for a subject and then the tone of something becomes impaired. Earl King Jr. (talk) 01:16, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I have responded to Earl's inane, vacuous, hypocritical comment on the talk page of The Zeitgeist Movement. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 14:37, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

1. "Name change". Misplaced Pages. Retrieved 24 May 2011.

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