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Revision as of 21:24, 4 October 2012 editHohenloh (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers18,739 edits →Londonderry← Previous edit Revision as of 21:52, 4 October 2012 edit undoMo ainm (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers9,265 edits →Londonderry: opposeNext edit →
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*'''Oppose''' per longstanding convention at ]. Furthermore, articles on Misplaced Pages are named by the subject's ] (not the ]). ''Derry'' the far more common name. --] (]) 17:49, 4 October 2012 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' per longstanding convention at ]. Furthermore, articles on Misplaced Pages are named by the subject's ] (not the ]). ''Derry'' the far more common name. --] (]) 17:49, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - as per previous discussions. Dunno why an IP brings this up here. ]<sup>]</sup> 21:23, 4 October 2012 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' - as per previous discussions. Dunno why an IP brings this up here. ]<sup>]</sup> 21:23, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Nothing new here, also IP is ] like Factocop and is avoiding their troubles restriction with this RfC. ]] 21:52, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

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WikiProject iconThis page is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ireland on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject IrelandTemplate:WikiProject IrelandIreland
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Should IRA members be referred to as volunteers?

There is a discussion at WT:WikiProject Ireland#Should IRA members be referred to as volunteers? on this. Sorry should have been put here really but it is there instead. Dmcq (talk) 09:12, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Arbitration motion regarding Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles

Resolved by motion at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment that:

Remedy 5 (Standard discretionary sanctions) of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles is amended as follows:

The words "and British baronets" are stricken from this remedy. The Committee reserves the right to restore sanctions to this area by motion, should a pattern of editing problems re-emerge. Existing sanctions which were placed prior to this amendment remain in effect (and unmodified) until they expire or are lifted via the normal appeals process.

For the Arbitration Committee, --Guerillero | My Talk 20:02, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Discuss this

Requested Move: ROI → Ireland (state)

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Should Republic of Ireland be renamed as Ireland or Ireland (state)? Kauffner (talk) 16:06, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

So there is clearly consensus against a move in the RM started below. Now that has been established and the RM should be coming to a close, you want to drag this out another month with a RFC to try and change the vote. Great. Grossly misleading and totally unacceptable wording again though too. You cannot just ask if it should be renamed Ireland or Ireland state, that is blatantly favouring a change to the status quo with people looking at that and thinking, "Do i want Ireland or Ireland (state)". Totally biased and deliberately designed to be. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:17, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
There is a huge backlog at WP:RM, so this could drag on for a while. But whenever the RM closes, the RFC would close as well. It was done this way for the Burma RM. Given the history of the issue I hope full due process is followed here. Kauffner (talk) 04:00, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

The request to rename this article to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration has been carried out.
If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag.

– The article on the nation-state of Ireland is currently at Republic of Ireland, yet the single word "Ireland" is both the common name of this state and its formal name as given in the Irish constitution. As detailed here, the Irish Supreme Court declared in 1989 that ROI is not "the correct name of the State" and that this usage is "erroneous." Just plain "Ireland" is the usage of the United Nations, European Union, Britain's Foreign Office, the U.S. Department of State, the Permanent Mission of Ireland to the United Nations, the Associated Press, New York Times, and Britannica. The purpose of an encyclopedia is to inform, but the current title misleads the reader into thinking that ROI is a proper long-form name and thus subtracts from the sum total of human knowledge. Kauffner (talk) 13:16, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Supporting material

  • "The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland." — "Constitution of Ireland" (1937).
  • "In the English language the name of this State is "Ireland" and is so prescribed by Article 4 of the Constitution... difficult to explain. There is only one State in the world named Ireland." — Irish Supreme Court, Ellis v. O'Dea (1989) I.R. 530.
  • "Ireland is simply Ireland. Although it is a republic, it is not the Republic of Ireland." — "Style Guide", The Economist.
  • "For country names, the US Central Intelligence Agency's World Factbook — continually updated — is a good place to start." — The Chicago Manual of Style, §8.43. See "Ireland". The World Factbook (2025 ed.). Central Intelligence Agency..
  • "If I say that my name is Costello and that my description is that of senior counsel, I think that will be clear to anybody who wants to know. If the Senator will look at Article 4 of the Constitution she will find that the name of the State is Éire. Section 2 of this Bill declares that 'this State shall be described as the Republic of Ireland.' Its name in Irish is Éire and in the English language Ireland. Its description in the English language is 'the Republic of Ireland.'" — Prime Minister John A. Costello, 1948. Kauffner (talk) 13:16, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Survey

Indicate order of preference among the following options:


  • ABCED, as nom. Kauffner (talk) 13:16, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
  • ABCD. I'm voting alphabetical. As a generally third-party American, I find both the Ireland and Taiwan debates a bit silly. It seems that everyone not involved in those debates sees both issues clearly: it's China and Taiwan, Ireland and Northern Ireland. I'm convinced absolutely that these are common names, and I think historical and political concerns in the areas in dispute are the only things that muddy the issues. And if not for the prevalence of UK users here, the Ireland issue would be settled as simply as the Taiwan one. Now, whether as the English Misplaced Pages we should give greater weight to UK positions is a question I see as less settled. But Ireland is an English-speaking country as well. --BDD (talk) 18:14, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
  • My preferred order is AB*DC. In my opinion, most readers are not looking for the article on the island, and so "Ireland" should not take the reader straight to that page, rather to what is currently at "Republic of Ireland". I was really quite torn between having the current ROI article or a dab page at "Ireland", but I honestly think we'd be letting readers down with a dab page – I can't help but compare that to peoples' reactions if "paper" encyclopaedias tried that. The caveat on option B is that Republic of Ireland should remain at "Republic of Ireland", despite the style guides and blah blah blah (my reasoning: WP:NATURALDAB and all that, and an aversion to style guides and being dictated to in general). "Ireland (state)" seems sloppy and odd to me, probably because "state" is such a broad term, and I don't think "Republic of Ireland" is inherently misleading to the readers. For me, it boils down to countries having precedence over anything else. IgnorantArmies (talk) 14:02, 22 September 2012 (UTC) edited to make preference clearer 15:27, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
To clarify: my preference for "Republic of Ireland" over anything else (iff option A is not preferred) is due to the lack of a suitable (IMO) alternative. I generally prefer natural disambiguation to parentheticals. IgnorantArmies (talk) 14:04, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
In other words, your vote is AEBDC? Kauffner (talk) 03:24, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
  • DCABE There is no strong evidence that a majority of people are interested in the state more than the island. When Americans talk about their ancestors they don't mean modern Ireland. When people go on holidays they don't particularly care about the border. The only reason it comes up much now is because of the troubles with the Euro which is a temporary thing. Republic of Ireland is a recognized disambiguation by law in Ireland when there can be a conflict. It is better to land at a more general article rather than a more specific one if there is some ambiguity. Shouldn't the proposal have been phrased in a fairer manner rather than just pushing one side and leaving anything else to a discussion at the bottom? Dmcq (talk) 14:24, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
  • DC - This has been discussed to death, and the current setup has always come out on top. The island-country is the main topic. It has been called Ireland for over 1,000 years while the modern state has only been calling itself Ireland for 75 years. Even still, "Republic of Ireland" is the official description of the state. If the argument is that we should use "Ireland" because it's the official name, then by that reckoning we should move United Kingdom to "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", Germany to "Federal Republic of Germany", Greece to "Hellenic Republic" and over 100 others. In Northern Ireland, the state is almost never called "Ireland" and in Britain too it's seldom called that. Calling the state "Ireland" is akin to calling Northern Ireland "Ulster". ~Asarlaí 16:10, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
  • ABDC per nom. The options should also mention the Kingdom of Ireland. Laurel Lodged (talk) 17:47, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
  • DC. The issue of which topic has primacy is complicated; the status quo satisfactorily accomodates this complexity. --Kwekubo (talk) 19:14, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
  • DC per Asarlaí and Kwekubo. The island/country is the primary meaning; the state is a mere child. It is complicated and the status quo as always had consensus as being the best way of dealing with the complexity. Scolaire (talk) 19:38, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
  • DCBA The island is clearly the broad concept and most common meaning of "Ireland". A natural disambiguater is better than an artificial one. The status quo is the least worst arrangement. Timrollpickering (talk) 21:37, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
  • BDCA The island should be more prominent that its political units. -- 76.65.131.248 (talk) 22:51, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
  • DC Nothing has fundamentally changed since previous discussions on this. Valenciano (talk) 07:35, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
  • DCB per Asarlaí & Kwekubo & Scolaire, though this ranking obscures the fact that I rate D as many many times better than C. This issue has been discussed so many times before that we risk decisions being made by default as a result of editor fatigue. The comments above show lots of familiar editors whose view has not changed, and my view is also unchanged.
    The issues here are grossly mis-stated by the nomination, which misrepresents the problem as one of common name, when the reality is that the same common name is shared by two entities: the 32-county island, and the 26-county state. The article on the island covers more than 1,000 years of the history of the island, as well as its geography, whereas the article on the state covers the more recent history of part of the island. The article on the island is therefore a much broader topic, and in wiki terms it is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.
    The oft-cited usage within international organisations of "Ireland" to refer to the state is a red herring, because Northern Ireland is ineligible for membership of those bodies, so no disambiguation is required in that rarified context. Within international organisations, states all referred to by their official name, regardless of whether that is their common name, so that usage does not help us make a decision in accordance with Misplaced Pages:Article titles.
    For those interested in the history of Ireland, the island article is the more comprehensive; for those interested in geography, the island article is more comprehensive; for those interested as tourists, the all-island article corresponds with the all-Ireland scope of the North-South joint tourism marketing of Ireland as a whole. That article should therefore continue to be the primary topic, and the article on the state should continue to use the widely-used natural language alternative.
    To those who advocate the use of "Ireland (state)" to describe the 26-county state, please note that the term is highly ambiguous, and could refer to any of the entities listed in Irish states since 1171. Ireland (state) is currently a redirect, but it should really be a dab page. If any state has a claim to the primary usage of that title, it is the Kingdom of Ireland, whose 258-year all-Ireland history spans a much longer period than the 90 years of the current 5/6ths state. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:29, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Hey, BHG. Could you move part of this lengthy response to the Discussion below? Stops this section from getting overly long. --HighKing (talk) 11:39, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Sure I could. As soon as the lengthy and partisan opening proposal is moved below and replaced with a neutral summary of the options, I will move all but a summary of my comment down below. -BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:50, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
  • D Absolutely nothing has changed since the last time this was debated. I will seek support for a motion to Arbcom, once this debate has concluded, that a moratorium on further such RM debates be put in place for another two years. Bastun 11:57, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
And edit to add: As apparently saying nothing has changed since the last time this was debated isn't sufficient, I am in favour of the satus quo for the reasons outlined here. Bastun 20:10, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Speedy close as a waste of time, given that the matter has been debated multiple times before and the nomination here merely rehearses the previous nominations without indicating any new arguments, any reason to believe the situation has changed, or even any acknowledgement of, let alone responses to, the counter-arguments put forward on previous occasions. D for all the reasons set out in all the previous discussions on this, the principle ones being reiterated above by BrownHairedGirl. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 16:52, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Waste of Time - agree with statements made by ComhairleContaeThirnanOg. --ZooFamily (talk) 20:27, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
  • D/Waste of time, as before. — Jon C. 10:04, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
  • ABC per multiple prior arguments, agree with Bastun that nothing much has changed since last time, but the current form is still wrong despite the premature vote last time ----Snowded 10:12, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
  • D' - and i strongly oppose the other options and this biased and unfair process. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:10, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
  • EDC, next DC as this is an international encyclopaedia and should not be a debating forum for mere students of politics. I was born and live in and prefer Republic of Ireland as the state name.Red Hurley (talk) 13:40, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
  • D - Kauffner fails to explain how exactly we would mention the Irish state in an article if we proceeded with "Ireland (state)". For instance if we follow IMOS and have Ireland used for the state when the island is not being mentioned and using Republic of Ireland when the island is being mentioned - thus following Kauffner's porposal every single instance regardless of context will need to be pipe-linked to "Ireland (state)" whereas at the moment we only need to pipe-link half of them. Mabuska 11:00, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
    • Republic of Ireland would redirect to Ireland (state). I don't see the problem. Kauffner (talk) 13:28, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
      • Forgetting the ridiculous and over-burdening need to use a pipe-link for almost every single usage of the article name in an article it would create, it also is not a suitable name for the article for "Ireland (state)" itself should be reserved and in all actuality be used as a disambiguation page for the Republic of Ireland, Irish Free State, Kingdom of Ireland and Lordship of Ireland articles. Do we disregard the fact there were at least 3 previous Irish states to the modern one? Mabuska 20:32, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
  • BACE – I am now convinced that “Republic of Ireland” is erroneous (meaning it is unsuitable even as a natural disambiguation), I don’t recall knowing about that Irish Supreme Court decision before now, that seems pretty conclusive to me.
    That leads me to prefer A, B or C over D or E. With this in mind, I still think it is impossible to define a primary topic for “Ireland”, which means that I firmly believe that “Ireland” should be a disambiguation page. That means I prefer B over A or C; and E over D.
    That leaves only A and C to separate, which forces me to pick a primary topic despite two firm opinions I hold against picking one here (to add to what I already stated, I dislike the idea of a primary topic in any case, but especially in this case). Forced to pick a primary topic, I guess I am answering the question ‘when someone uses the term “Ireland” with no context, or in a context where they could be referring to either the current state or the island, which are they more likely to mean?’, which would also be the same question if it ended “which is most commonly meant?”. This is by far the most difficult of these questions, but I think the current state just about wins, as countries are probably referred to more often than islands. So that puts A ahead of C. Therefore BACED, but no need to state the fifth of five options. I would also like to state my full support for this voting system. Much fairer than just voting for a single option out of many. MTC (talk) 16:30, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
  • DEA. The current setup has worked well, complies with common usage and uses the official description of the state. I see no compelling reasons to change the status quo, and would support a moratorium on requested moves until something changes in the real world. I oppose all options with "Ireland (state)" because the official description of the state, "Republic of Ireland" is the term in common use when the need to distinguish between the geographical and political entities. For the record, Kauffner (talk · contribs) invited me to take part in this discussion. Thryduulf (talk) 16:45, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
  • ED: detailed rationale at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/statementbyDrkiernan. Everyone is agreed that Ireland is the official name, but Misplaced Pages does not put articles at their official name. We use common names or short form names or descriptions when disambiguation is required. Here we are using an official description as a natural disambiguator, as advised at Misplaced Pages:Article titles#Disambiguation. DrKiernan (talk) 18:44, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
  • DDDDDNo need to change current format. Id imagine that those who are for a change to current format would probably oppose the use of Londonderry even though its official.46.7.113.111 (talk) 20:14, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

  • Point of discussion as this cannot be decided without taking this into consideration. The island is called Ireland and has been for a lot longer than this modern state of Ireland has been around. Also a lot of references to Ireland are referring to the land, the island, the historical concepts of Ireland and not the modern state. From a Misplaced Pages naming perspective I believe the island at Ireland is a clear WP:Primary Topic. Canterbury Tail talk 15:02, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Is the preference with most preferred first or most preferred last? I put most preferred first but IgnorantArmies put A first and yet says they prefer Republic of Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 14:29, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
"Country" is much more ambiguous than "State". "Country" could rightly be used to refer to Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, Scotland, the Scottish Highlands, the West Country, the Basque Country, asf. "State" can only mean an independent state or an administrativ' region therof. ~Asarlaí 16:21, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
I know, but my concern is with matching current usage. --BDD (talk) 16:06, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
I can assure you that in current usage, Ireland (as a whole) is quite often referred to as a country. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 16:54, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
I see support for state here at Ireland in a state of chassis ;-) Dmcq (talk) 09:14, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
What improvement to decision making is gained by putting in options nobody is going to choose to put first? Someone stuck your thing as E above so go and support it if you really do support it. Dmcq (talk) 09:18, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
It came up during the mega vote and has been a repeated problem when various polls fly around with less than all the options - the classic being the one that excluded the status quo. Given the history of this dispute such an approach doesn't help in the slightest. Timrollpickering (talk) 12:51, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Well, at a glance it looks like this option is coming close behind Option A now (both are well behind the current set-up), so even though it is almost guaranteed to make all the editors from Ireland unhappy, it clearly has some appeal. --41.232.58.237 (talk) 07:47, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Please be aware that this has been a Arbcom case and the current naming patterns are based on a long-running consensus from that. Any naming changes may be affected by current motions and resolutions from that case. --MASEM (t) 03:39, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Actually, to be accurate, the Arbcom case did not result in a consensus. It was a vote count which has since been shown to have been overwhelmingly and unfairly influenced by the volume from one national/cultural bias in particular. Which is what always happens on this issue. --HighKing (talk) 11:38, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
That claim has been repeatedly made, yet is also without grounding. Various attempts at counting "Irish editors" were inconclusive, with most showing that the result would be unchanged if the electorate was restricted on ethnic or nationalist grounds. Even looking at the votes above, I'm Irish as is BHG, Scolaire, Bastun and Asarlai and all favour the status quo so I'm still not seeing this anglo-american supression of the preferred "Irish" option. Valenciano (talk) 16:57, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
All attempts to count nationality have been inaccurate and therefore inconclusive, because not every editor publishes their nationality. But. For those editors where their nationality is known (like the list you just published) the voting patterns were striking and not inconclusive in the slightest. And I don't know what you mean by "anglo-american" supression - wasn't a counted demographic AFAIK. --HighKing (talk) 09:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
Not true and you know it. User:Rannphairti_anaithnid published just such an analysis at the time which showed the status quo prevailing and besides that, no one has yet made a convincing case as to why geographical locations on this encyclopedia should only be written by citizens of that country. Seems to fly totally against what we're trying to do here. Speaking personally as an Irish ex-pat, I'm kinda happy that people care enough about the place to write about it, regardless of where they're from. I've honestly never really got where you're coming from with this one. Valenciano (talk) 18:57, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
Actually, to be accurate, the Arbcom case led to a six-month long discussion here on this page. The result of that discussion, agreed by the great majority of participants on both sides of the debate, with only two or three dissentors, was to hold a vote (not a !vote but an actual poll of editors), using STV, among the whole Misplaced Pages community, without distinction of ethnic, national, cultural or any other identity. The vote was held, and the result was conclusive: maintain the status quo. The notion that a volume of votes from one "bias" should have been excluded was never mooted before the much-trumpeted launch of the poll. And, in any case, how could such a bias be "conclusively shown"? All attempts to count nationality have been inaccurate and therefore inconclusive, because not every editor publishes their nationality. The number of identifiable British/NI "unionist" voters was considerably less than the number that would have been required to overturn the majority. Also, the number of Irish who voted for the status quo, while it may have been the minority (and despite what you say, whether they were or not depends on whose figures you accept), was large enough that you could not say with any degree of confidence that the Irish demographic was different to the population as a whole. Scolaire (talk) 16:38, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
Not only that, but Rannpháirtí Anaithid's analysis also clearly showed that the option that came nearest to winning - the then option E, which as I recall would have turned Ireland into a dab page and renamed the articles Ireland (state) and Ireland (island) - was in fact joint-least popular among voters assumed to be Irish, far behind the winning solution which we are being told is the result of some nefarious foreign plot. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 22:23, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
According to RA's analysis, 16 (53%) "Irish editors" voted for ROI in 2009, 14 (47%) for "Ireland (state)". No one is voting "Ireland (state)" this time around, so those would probably be "Ireland" (Option A) votes now. The overall vote was 126 (56%) for ROI, 101 (44%) for "Ireland (state)". Kauffner (talk) 05:18, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
No, that's not what happened, because those were not the options. RA's analysis shows that if only the editors assumed to be Irish had voted, the final count would have been 16 for having the country article at "Ireland" and the state article at "Republic of Ireland" against 14 for having the country article at "Ireland" and the state article at "Ireland (state)". But the vote boiled down to a choice between having the former and having "Ireland" as a disambiguation page, the country at "Ireland (island)" and the state at "Ireland (state)". RA did not work out how Irish voters split on that choice. I don't know which editors our Anonymous Contributor counted as Irish, so can't work that out against the same dataset either. You'll note that the second choice among the Irish editors also involved keeping the country at "Ireland", so it is quite a leap to assume that supporters of that option would necessarily prefer to move the state article there. --ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 21:08, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
Sixteen Irish editors voted for the island to be primary topic in the first round. That's the same as the number who voted for ROI in the final round. I assume it was the same people. My spin is that the Irish editors reacted negatively to the idea of making "Ireland" a DAB, an idea that was popular with non-Irish editors. Kauffner (talk) 10:18, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
That's true but not even the whole story. It's also the case that of the 32 assumed Irish editors, 28, or 87.5%, voted for options that kept either the current "ireland" article or an alternative "main topic" article at Ireland. Only 2 voted for a dab page there, but equally only two voted for moving the "state" article there. So I think it's clear that the Irish contingent strongly prefer having an all-Ireland article of one form or another at "ireland". Which suggests that a move such as the one suggested above will be at best extremely contentious. --ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 16:32, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Personally I believe this argument is too complicated for a single poll. Various viewpoints can be condensed to:
  1. The state article should reside at "Ireland" since that is the official correct name of the state.
  2. The island article takes precedence over the state article, and therefore should reside at "Ireland"
  3. Both have the same "weight", why don't we use a dab page
  4. The state article should not reside at "Republic of Ireland"
All the viewpoints have validity. Trying to out-number the status quo (even though the status quo doesn't have consensus) is futile. Even if a majority disagrees with the current arrangement, nobody agrees on why they disagree, hence there's no alternative arrangement with sufficient numbers. Divide and conquer. Stupidity in action. --HighKing (talk) 11:52, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
HighKing, I think you are right in part of what you say: "there's no alternative arrangement with sufficient numbers". Where I disagree with you is that I see no reason to change to an alternative unless that alternative arrangement carries more support than the status quo. I can see no basis in any of wikipedia's procedural policies for replacing one disputed arrangement with something which is more widely opposed. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:44, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Because the current arrangement is particularly objectionable to those who object to it. It's the wikigeopolitical equivalent of a certain recent YouTube clip, I think. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 17:02, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Actually BHG, we don't disagree at all. --HighKing (talk) 09:57, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
  • I just want to express my displeasure with editors whose votes solely take the form of "we've discussed it before." Please consider making arguments for your preferred option, especially with policy-based evidence. See Kauffner's nomination if you need an example of such an argument. --BDD (talk) 16:16, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
    • WP:DISCUSSED is based on the premise that consensus can change. Of course it can, but you would expect to see some evidence of this changing consensus. On the contrary, this RfC from just two months ago shows that it is taken for granted that the article will remain at its current title for the foreseeable future. Opening an RM just because it's a year since the last one is not going to achieve anything, especially when the arguments are the same tired arguments that have been rejected time and again over the last ten years. If the nominator doesn't bring any new arguments to the table, it's very difficult for the opponents to counter with anything other than "we've discussed it before". Scolaire (talk) 16:32, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
BDD, it's because several of those editors have gone to considerable lengths to rebut identical arguments in the past and therefore fail to see why we have exactly the same debate every few months without a hint that anything has fundamentally changed. Valenciano (talk)
Saying "we've discussed this before" may not be an adequate response, but saying "we've discussed this before and I have already indicated the reasoning behind my choice of option X" seems more than reasonable to me. The proposer of this move request has proposed it on more or less the same grounds that it was proposed before, and has made no attempt to rebut the countervailing arguments that were made at length on previous occasions. If he did engage with the objections, which far from being a secret have been rehearsed at mind-boggling length on several previous occasions, and brought some new arguments to the table, I would have no particular objection to responding to those. But I personally think someone who is re-proposing a previously failed move request should at least engage with the arguments that were made against the move on previous occasions. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 17:02, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
You displeasure is noted, User:BDD. Please also note my displeasure at seeing yet another RM proposed on exactly the same basis as prior ones, without addressing any of the reasons why prior ones failed. For what it's worth, here are some of the arguments in favour of the status quo that I've made in the past. In fairness, you didn't take part in the Great Debate of 2009, so you may have missed all the same arguments by all the same people made then, before then, and subsequently... Bastun 20:21, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
US should return stolen land to Indian tribes, says United Nations. Dmcq (talk) 20:48, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
I'd be interested in a completely different discussion, on the issues surrounding renaming the "Republic of Ireland" article to something (anything) else, and leaving everything else as it is. But not now, and not connected to the current discussion. --HighKing (talk) 10:00, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
I would support that 100%—including (or particularly) the "not now, and not connected to the current discussion." Scolaire (talk) 16:40, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
While I believe that Republic of Ireland is the best dab, I've never had any objection to the country being at Ireland (state) or whatever suitable alternative can be hashed out. The island is clearly the primary topic, but other variants of the state article name would be reasonable enough and would have a far better chance of getting consensus. Valenciano (talk) 19:02, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
My understanding was that late last year we agreed to have a move proposal on precisely that - a move of Republic of Ireland to Ireland (state) - and even scheduled it for 15 January gone by. It's all there in the last archive. By the time 15 January came round it never happened, probably because everyone was so dispirited by the process of having got that far, but perhaps also because it got sidetracked when people kept popping up re-raising the old rejected move proposal instead, just like this time. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 22:12, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
No, we didn't agree to anything last year. Some of the wiser heads began to form a consensus that that was the move most likely to find acceptance, but the lunatic fringe made sure that the wiser heads did not prevail, and in the end everybody gave up at the same moment. Perhaps when the current madness is over, we could start talking about talks about that possibility again. Scolaire (talk) 23:47, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Comment - This requested move is blatantly bias (it completely ignores the primary problem, which is there is an island called Ireland, which is the primary topic), This should not have been introduced without prior discussion, and considering the lengths that were went to last time, an extensive process endorsed by arbcom, this should not be done in this way. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:07, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

You're begging the question. It's quite obvious from the discussion here that not everyone agrees that the island of Ireland is the primary topic. And an RM is absolutely the proper way of requesting a move. Instructions there indicate that Ireland-related discussions must occur here, not that they require "prior discussion." We don't follow parliamentary procedure—we don't need to discuss whether we want to discuss. --BDD (talk) 19:53, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Reply to MTC: Re the "Supreme Court decision", the reference to that in the ROI article is actually very misleading. There was no such decision. The court was hearing an appeal by Dessie Ellis "against the failure of the High Court to prohibit the hearing of district court proceedings for his extradition from Ireland" (Irish Times, 6 December 1989). The Supreme Court ruled against Ellis, that is, its decision was that extradition proceedings could continue, and in fact Ellis was extradited. In the course of his judgement, Justice Brian Walsh said, "if the courts of other countries seeking the assistance of this country..." etc. This was not a ruling, and it had no effect on the court's ruling. James Casey, in Constitutional Law in Ireland, correctly reports the judges remarks, but the Misplaced Pages article incorrectly interprets Casey. The fact is, not only were Walsh's remarrks obiter dicta, but they have not been relied on in a single case in the 23 years since. There is no Irish law - none whatever - against the use of ROI as a name for the state. Which is just as well, as otherwise thousands of Irish citizen's, including RTÉ employees, publishers and the designers of food and other packaging would be breaking the law every day. Scolaire (talk) 10:55, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
    I don’t think obiter dictum applies here; the question of the name of the country may not have been central to the case, but I find it unlikely that such a long and specific passage in a Supreme Court decision would be based on an erroneous understanding of the law. There may be a misunderstanding here as to which statement I was referring to. I was and am referring to the “However, they are not at liberty to attribute to this State a name which is not its correct name” line from the quote here. Care to cite any cases in the 23 years since that have specifically contradicted that statement? That would stand a very good chance of convincing me to change my vote. Such a case should also be added to the names of the Irish state article, for balance against the Ellis v O’Dea case at the very least.
    Also, news reporters and publishers are free to use whatever name they like, using “Republic of Ireland” can’t be breaking the law, even if it happens to be unprofessional and incorrect. The name of a country should indeed be set out in law, and using the wrong name is incorrect, but it cannot be considered “breaking the law” to use a few words incorrectly. Such a law would be akin to a law against bad grammar, and I’d have to report you to the police for using an apostrophe for a pluralization (“citizen’s”). MTC (talk) 12:27, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
I can't believe I did that! That is indeed a hanging offence. As for the substantive matter, we'll have to agree to disagree. To me that long and specific passage is just one (albeit a distinguished) person's opinion. To me, the absence of any cases in 23 years, citing or contadicting that obiter, is a mark of how irrelevant the lawmakers think it was. The pronouncements of any judge are only significant to the extent that they are used as precedent (or are reversed) in the future. In this case, that would give it zero significance. BTW Names of the Irish state also misquotes its source, which again says "Walsh J. condemned the practice..." and not "the Supreme Court unanimously condemned..." Scolaire (talk) 13:52, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
Whether you consider Ireland would be better used for the state instead of the island or we should use Ireland (state) is up to you to decide, but saying 'Republic of Ireland' is not a natural disambiguation is simply wrong. That is the official description of the state and it is used to disambiguate in the Dail quite often when there is a discussion which relates to Northern Ireland. If you've read the articleyou'll see for instance the Revenue Commissioner's letter, and they've used Republic quite rightly there to avoid possible mistakes or confusion. Dmcq (talk) 13:05, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
I agree. The fact that "Republic of Ireland" is not the official name of the state is already a matter of consensus here, I think. But as has been noted at length, Misplaced Pages naming policy places no great emphasis on using official names. "Ireland (state)" is not an official name either! --ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 13:52, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages’s naming policies are guidelines, not rules, and I have arguments against many of them. Also, “Ireland (state)” doesn’t need to be an official name, “Ireland” is the name and “ (state)” is a disambiguator (not a very good one though, given there have been several states called “Ireland”).
The question to be answered here as I see it is “is it incorrect to use Republic of Ireland?”. If yes, we shouldn’t use it under any circumstances, and we should use “Ireland” with a disambiguator; if no, it is the most natural disambiguation and should be used as the article title given that “Ireland” is ambiguous.
Dmcq, at no point did I claim that “'Republic of Ireland' is not a natural disambiguation”, I said it was incorrect to use it as such if it is no longer a valid name of the country. Scolaire, if that is indeed just one person’s opinion then the this needs editing, as it is currently written it very clearly implies that the quote is a statement by the court, which suggests it is far more official than “just one distinguished person's opinion”. Unfortunately the source for the quote is a dead link and I have been unable to find a better source via Google.
I’ve now read the whole of Names of the Irish state several times. The main pieces of evidence as I see them are the Supreme Court statement from 1989 and the official use of “Republic of Ireland” by the Revenue Commissioners more recently than that. Anything that doesn’t relate to the Irish government’s usage is irrelevant in my view, the question here is about the official position of the Irish government. So we have a Supreme Court judge’s opinion of the law versus an envelope printed by the Revenue Commissioners. I’m siding with the law expert. MTC (talk) 14:55, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I said that that needs editing. The source, which I have, says "Walsh J. condemned the practice..." and not "the Supreme Court unanimously condemned...". Ditto for all other references to "the court" in that paragraph. The source is not very good, by the way (it's a course manual from the Law Society FE1 Preparatory Course at Griffith College, Cork). It says, among other things, that Walsh J. said that "foreign courts are at liberty to issue warrants in the foreign language", when in fact he said that the courts of the United Kingdom or of other States might choose to issue warrants in the Irish language, per the following quote. Incidentally, I'm perplexed by your apparent suggestion that a Supreme Court judge’s opinion of the law represents the official position of the Irish government. Judges and governments frequently differ - it's called the Separation of Powers. In this instance it would appear that the Minister for Justice was happy to accept extradition warrants that did not use the name "Ireland", despite the opinion of the learned judge. The Revenue Commissioners, on the other hand, are ultimately responsible to the government. Scolaire (talk) 16:20, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
I’m perplexed as to how someone could be perplexed at a suggestion that an Irish Supreme Court judge has expert knowledge of Irish law. Your separation of powers point actually strengthens my position, as we now have a high‐ranking official of one law‐related body (even if his opinion is not representative of the court’s opinion, it is still an expert’s opinion about a fact) versus a envelope printed by a non‐law‐related government department. I’m wondering if it’s possible to make my position any clearer. Now, being aware of the possibility for arguing in circles, I’ll avoid replying any further unless any new arguments are made. MTC (talk) 17:40, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
I said "I'm perplexed by your apparent suggestion that a Supreme Court judge’s opinion of the law represents the official position of the Irish government." I never at any time suggested he did not have knowledge of the law, and that's not what you were arguing: you said "Anything that doesn’t relate to the Irish government’s usage is irrelevant in my view, the question here is about the official position of the Irish government." Don't misrepresent me. And thank you for avoiding circular arguments in the future. Scolaire (talk) 19:44, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
I wish people would keep track of what they say for just a short while. 'meaning it is unsuitable even as a natural disambiguation' and 'Dmcq, at no point did I claim that “'Republic of Ireland' is not a natural disambiguation” are as far as I see in conflict with each other. Perhaps one can twist one mind to make them consistent but could we not just make what is said more plain and constructive thanks. Dmcq (talk) 20:04, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
Scolaire, you were stating that you were perplexed about my suggestion. If my defense of my point was a “misrepresentation” of what you were perplexed about then you are in fact misrepresenting what I said. I never suggested that the judge represents the official position of the Irish government, as if he is making the law rather than interpreting it. My point was that as he is presumably an expert in law, I trust his reading of what the official position of the Irish government is (I am equating “official position of the Irish government” with “Irish law”, perhaps that is what confused you). I have no intention of misrepresenting you, but likewise do not misrepresent me.
Dmcq. “unsuitable as” is not the same as “not”. Whether something is a natural disambiguation is not decided by whether it is correct or not. “Republic of Ireland” is a natural disambiguation whether or not it is valid as a name of the country. My argument is that it is unsuitable because it isn’t a valid name, not that it is unsuitable because it is “not a natural disambiguation”. MTC (talk) 20:20, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm not here to waste my time on sophistry. Dmcq (talk) 21:26, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
Ditto. Scolaire (talk) 10:08, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Notifications

In view of the longstanding disputes about notifications of debates in this area I feel it is important to record notifications of this RM:

The following users have been notified of this proposal by the nominator:

The following projects have been notified by the nominator:

Timrollpickering (talk) 22:12, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

The list of individuals looks a bit selective to me! WP:Canvass? --Scolaire (talk) 07:02, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
The list of users looks *very* selective to me... As someone who is now an infrequent contributor but who has nonetheless taken part in every such debate since joining, I'd expect at least a heads-up. Bastun 11:51, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
I wasn't canvassed. I found a draft proposal in Jpech95's user space and commented on it; Kauffner merely notified me when the proposal went live. This also explains Jpech95's notification. Jenks24 is a respected admin active in requested moves. I'm not sure about GoodDay. The proposal is listed at WP:RM and the relevant WikiProject was notified. Please assume good faith. --BDD (talk) 16:12, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Only one of the projects that the articles are members of was manually notified. It may be more due to technical problems than anything else but as far as I can see Article Alerts has not picked up on this RM yet. And this doesn't even cover the list of places for notification that was thrashed out for past discussions. Timrollpickering (talk) 16:55, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I would have liked to of been notified about this debate. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:04, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

There's only evidence of one editor not involved in the draft proposal being notified, and that editor is not participating. Monitor this page and/or RM if you're interested in naming discussions related to Ireland or in general. --BDD (talk) 19:57, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
I do check this page occasionally.. but the RM was entirely out of the blue with no recent previous conversation about holding a RM. Clearly it would have been helpful had there been several weeks of debate before jumping in with a RM to ensure people did not miss it. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:39, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
But there was previous notification, even on this page. See the section ROI naming proposal. It's been a while, but I doubt you would have liked it if he gave that notification the day before. Perhaps it was taken for an April Fool's joke. --BDD (talk) 17:51, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
Unfortunately BDD WP:Votestacking is quite explicit. It isn't the number of votes it's getting 'support votes up first to give momentum. In this case even if the RM had carried it would have been easily appealable because of those 4 selective messages at the same time as posting the RM. In the case of habitual behaviour this becomes an issue requiring remedy:

How to respond to inappropriate canvassing The most effective response to quite recent, clearly disruptive canvassing is to politely request that the user(s) responsible for the canvassing stop posting notices, possibly using {{subst:Uw-canvass}}. If they continue, they may be reported to the administrators' noticeboard, which may result in their being blocked from editing. Users with a prior history of disruptive canvassing, which they have previously been asked to discontinue, may be blocked immediately without further warning, if such an action is deemed to be necessary.

In ictu oculi (talk) 13:01, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
IIO has posted messages denouncing me for this and that every day for about three months now. He has followed me from Czech hockey player RMs, to Vietnamese diacritics, and now to Ireland. Hey, everyone needs a hobby. Kauffner (talk) 14:25, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
Um-huh. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:09, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
I think this particular argument is kind of moot. It looks rather like anyone who wants to follow this has it watchlisted anyway. At any rate, the votes above suggest that nothing is changing on this occasion, so we can probably spare ourselves the debate about the debate about the debate. --ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 16:25, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

I am also unhappy about the fact the Ireland wikiproject was notified and not the UK one. The Ireland naming dispute relates not just to Ireland but also the UK, which shares Ireland with the Republic of Ireland. In future if we have the misfortune of additional debates on this subject, both should be notified or neither. Otherwise it is bias. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:39, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

I think it's a fair assumption that any members of the UK Wikiproject who are interested in Ireland are as likely to have joined the Ireland wikiproject, which covers both the North and the Republic. --ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 13:57, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Proposed notification list

This is taken from the discussion in November 2011. Those already here or notified are given unlinked:

Asarlaí, Bastun, BritishWatcher, BrownHairedGirl, Daicaregos, Dmcq, ComhairleContaeThirnanOg, Eluchil404, Evertype, Fmph, GoodDay, Hans Adler, HighKing, Mabuska, Kauffner, MTC, Mtking, RA, RashersTierney, Red King, Sam Blacketer, Scolaire, Sswonk, Thryduulf, Timrollpickering, Valenciano, Van Speijk. Kauffner (talk) 07:16, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Stable door, mate. It would be polite to notify them, even at this late stage, but the discussion is dead in the water. Scolaire (talk) 07:30, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
I agree with Scolaire, it would of been polite regardless of the stage. Mabuska 11:19, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

@User Scolaire, User Bastun, User British Watcher etc. are you satisfied with the above as User Kauffner's response to the WP:CANVASS issue? Are you satisfied that there's a recognition that it was contrary to the WP:CANVASS guideline and that there's a committment to not keep on doing it? Unfortunately I see here is the attitude of repeatedly getting away with the same behaviour encouraging the behaviour to continue. Which just means that the next RM in the User:Kauffner/RM incubator pipeline will have the same problem. Is this what the community wants? In ictu oculi (talk) 05:04, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

I usually fully support the good progress and commonsense approach Kauffner takes to the naming of articles,such as at Burma and Ivory Coast where commonname is used now thankfully, but this RM and RFC is just fundamentally flawed when it ignores entirely the existence of an island called Ireland, which is the whole reason why the regularly used name and official description of the state "Republic of Ireland" is used instead. The lack of notifying those who have been fully involved is a problem, as is the fact the Ireland wikiproject was notified and not the UK wikiproject. These article naming issues involves both and so both should be notified in future, as happened during the major process a few years ago which was accepted by arbcom and resulted in a 2 year lock on moves. Ideally after this process is over this time, there may be an extension of that ban on page move attempts. Nothing has changed, its clear even from the flawed RM above the majority oppose changing the status quo. This should all just be closed now so we can all move on. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:45, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

In ictu oculi, you have made your point, but really this is overkill! Yes, I am satisfied that the appropriate people have now been notified. On the other hand, I don't feel that there was any need for "a recognition that it was contrary to the WP:CANVASS guideline" or "a committment to not keep on doing it", so it doesn't matter whether I'm "satisfied" on that score. What's done is done. The RM/RfC will die a natural death - probably soon as far as discussion is concerned, maybe later as regards closing it. Scolaire (talk) 17:40, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Agree with Scolaire. Bastun 09:28, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Londonderry

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Request move for WP from Derry to Londonderry. Londonderry is the official name of the city. 46.7.113.111 (talk) 16:58, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

  • Comment: Strange how an IP starts an RfC here, rather than on Talk:Derry. A cynic might say it was an experienced user trying to act like a naive newbie. A conspiracy theorist might say it was a blocked or topic-banned editor trying to make trouble. Scolaire (talk) 19:55, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Well, WP:RM says "discussions relating to the naming of Ireland articles... must occur at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration." I'm pretty sure that just means the named articles of Ireland, Republic of Ireland, and Ireland (disambiguation), but I could see how someone would interpret it this way. However, I do think it should be an RM at Talk:Derry instead of an RfC here. --BDD (talk) 20:25, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
raised here to get the largest audience.
  • Oppose No grounds have been given for the action besides Londonderry being the official name. That is not a reason in Misplaced Pages to change. Also I'm pretty certain that Derry is the correct title for the article as per WP:COMMONNAME. Dmcq (talk) 22:07, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Also I'm pretty certain that Londonderry is the correct title for the article as per WP:COMMONNAME.
@Dmcq, please read over your last comment and ask yourself why it would not be best to use the official name of the city in an online encyclopedia... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.7.113.111 (talk • contribs) 22:18, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
I have read the policy and I agree with it rather than you. Also Google gives a much higher count for Derry than Londonderry and when you put in Londonderry many of the pages have Derry at the top which doesn't happen when you put in Derry. So I have reviewed my decision and I am sticking with it. Dmcq (talk) 23:19, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Also see Misplaced Pages:Official names, and remember to sign your posts on talk pages with four tildes (~~~~). --BDD (talk) 23:25, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Not really good enough a reason. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.7.113.111 (talk • contribs) 22:18, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
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