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Revision as of 03:02, 20 January 2013 editBus stop (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers44,012 edits Compromise: Category:American people of Jewish descent← Previous edit Revision as of 03:07, 20 January 2013 edit undoAndyTheGrump (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers54,017 edits Compromise: Category:American people of Jewish descent: response to Bus stop's usual attempt to turn Misplaced Pages into 'The pop-up book of famous Jews'Next edit →
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:::] policy would not be applicable because there is nothing ''"contentious or questionable"'' and there are no ''"implications for…living relatives and friends".'' There are no Categories for ''"Observant Jews"'', ''"Nonobservant Jews"'', and ''"Semi-observant Jews"'' so that is not a possibility. Aaron Swartz neither converted to another religion nor renounced Jewish identity therefore he is not ''"of Jewish descent".'' He is simply an American Jew and should be Categorized accordingly. ] (]) 03:01, 20 January 2013 (UTC) :::] policy would not be applicable because there is nothing ''"contentious or questionable"'' and there are no ''"implications for…living relatives and friends".'' There are no Categories for ''"Observant Jews"'', ''"Nonobservant Jews"'', and ''"Semi-observant Jews"'' so that is not a possibility. Aaron Swartz neither converted to another religion nor renounced Jewish identity therefore he is not ''"of Jewish descent".'' He is simply an American Jew and should be Categorized accordingly. ] (]) 03:01, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
::::Bus stop is simply an obsessive Jew-tagger and should be ignored accordingly. ] (]) 03:07, 20 January 2013 (UTC)


== Suicide or Alleged suicide? == == Suicide or Alleged suicide? ==

Revision as of 03:07, 20 January 2013

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In the newsA news item involving Aaron Swartz was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the In the news section on 13 January 2013.
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Articles for deletionThis article was nominated for deletion on December 31, 2005. The result of the discussion was keep.

relevance

Beyond the question of who wrote it, this is an irrelevant biography. There are Nobel Laureates and nominees with smaller entries, and I think this reflects the "techie-bias" of Misplaced Pages. --Alexiusca 18:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

That's fine. People that agree with you have taken this to a articles for deletion vote and have lost. If you think things have changed in a way that will change the AfD, feel free to propose it again. I think it's unlikely. If you find Misplaced Pages lacking in articles on Nobel Laureates, perhaps you can spent more time improving these articles rather than complaining on the talk pages of people you feel are undeserving. —mako (talkcontribs) 06:31, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
If you've got a problem with the pages on Nobel Laureates being too short, go edit them and put more information on them, don't complain about it on a talkpage in a completely irrelevant article. I'm appalled that there's almost 30 pages for some TV series, and the page on Minutes of Arc is completely incomprehensible and might as well be deleted. However the people writing have more interest in a show like Battlestar Galactica than they do on Minutes of Arc; similarly writers are more interested about Aaron Swartz than they are about a Nobel Laureate. He may not deserve a longer page, but he is certainly notable and in online communities he's probably more notable than most Laureates are and that's where it counts. 213.249.187.120 14:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Minute of arc as last modified on 8 January 2013 at 02:13 is superbly written. --Pawyilee (talk) 14:04, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm using some software by Aaron, thought 'that name seems familiar', looked him up and found some useful context for the software I'm using on this page. I'm glad it hasn't been deleted, it is a useful page. Marinheiro (talk) 15:43, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Removed unsourced material and some non-notable comments

Some material on this page had been unsourced for months; other material has been unsourced for years. Some of it is subject to specific dispute; see, for example, http://betabeat.com/2011/07/rumors-acquisitions-did-reddit-have-a-third-co-founder/. This information should be properly sourced because it is potentially controversial, and it should not rely exclusively on the subject's claims (which appear in some contexts to be at least possibly overstated) or on other potentially exaggerated claims. In general, the subject's work often appears to be overstated. For example, he is occasionally identified as the 'inventor' of RSS when in fact he was one member of a large working group that authored an RSS specification that, though numbered 1.0, was not the first version of the specification.

In addition to the main purpose of my recent edits, regarding proper authority and accuracy, I have also removed some non-notable material and made some minor corrections. Most of these need no comment because they are minor. The only one that deserves comment is the removal of what I judged to be a non-notable 'opinion' quotation about the subject's pending criminal case. I happen to agree with the opinion (regarding the overuse of criminal prosecution in some cases), but its inclusion seemed unbalanced and arbitrary in the context of the article.

For what it is worth, I lean toward agreeing with those who have said that this subject does not meet Misplaced Pages's notability standards based on the cited material in the article. The criminal case has received some attention and coverage but probably does not merit a page of its own. The reasons for preserving the article that were presented in the relatively early AfD do not seem persuasive today, and in general the matter received little discussion then. But I do not feel strongly enough about the matter to renominate the article personally for deletion. Antiselfpromotion (talk) 23:02, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Your edits were about as thoughtful as your rather obvious special-interest username. It was hardly vandalism, so I don't see why you need to compare it to that – However by immediately repeating your edits you are clearly happy to begin edit warring. You deleted a number of refs from established authorities (JSTOR and boston.com), then deleted the rest of the content on the grounds that it was now unsourced. You deleted a number of refs from Aaron's own site, owing to your misunderstanding of policy: WP:RS is not a requirement that all references meet RS, or a ban upon self-published sources in addition – there was no reason whatsoever to blank these references. Of course you didn't consider using any of the tools like archive.org or boston.com itself (try ) to retrieve old copies of now-dead URLs.
You blanked the section about the 14 year old Aaron Swartz and his work with the W3C, which is one of the most well-known things about him. You made zero effort to source this (the W3C would, I think, be considered a RS and their archives are pretty accessible ). I was part of the RSS & RDF working groups at this time - Swartz had a big influence and left a big recorded footprint. One of the refs you read (you did read them didn't you?) even includes a photo of the (I think) 15 year old Swartz with Larry Lessig.
Strangely you left recent refs that related to the hacking incident, and that were critical of him, intact. You might wish to review WP:NPOV. You were also quite happy to swap "asked to resign" (which I understand to be the case) with "fired", presumably on the basis that "Fired" and "Wired" make a better pun for a T shirt.
You claimed, "much of it is disputed, and the subject appears to inflate his credentials in many contexts that have been subject to dispute." which isn't even OR it's just sheer WP:MADEUP on your part. The only real issue about which that sort of statement could be made is the credit for Reddit, a topic where some quite possibly overblown claims have been made, but far less from Swartz than they have from outside commentators. Where art these "disputes" that you claim? Where are these "many" contexts? If you're going to defame the subject of an article, it's even more important to source that than for cases where hes being praised, perhaps without sources.
Removing self promotion is of course a valuable goal that we all support. Two hundred edits? I think I hit that in a good week. This though was a poorly done hatchet job. Andy Dingley (talk) 01:04, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
Your tone here is strange and hostile. You repeatedly call me 'lazy' and my work 'poorly done', but this is not about me or you. I'm not in competition with you or the number of edits you've made. You have, however, simply mischaracterized my edits. It is patently unfair to suggest I removed sources and then claimed material was unsourced, for example. Indeed, I explained this in my comments on the talk page.
I can respond to each of the various things you suggest, but I'm not sure you're considering what I'm saying in a fair spirit. For example, I replaced 'asked to resign' with 'fired' because the only source on the matter (the subject's own) uses that word. It is also the word used in the article on Reddit. The pun was his, not mine, but it is still the word he used, and elaborated, in the one cited reference on the topic. His connection with the PCCC, outside claims that originate with him, are unclear, and I was unable to find reliable sources on the matter. This is something about which we should be very careful, as they are a political action committee and we are claiming a link with someone charged with federal felonies.
I'm not clear what else in what you've written merits response; none of it seems germane to the reasons I offered on the article's talk page or to any of the specific edits that I spent time making. You seem to assume I have some animosity toward the subject, which I don't. My comments on the talk page concerning notability are not affected by whether he once worked with Larry Lessig or not.
I'm sure you're more experienced with Misplaced Pages than I am, but the policies in question on this matter are clear: 'Sometimes editors will disagree on whether material is verifiable. The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a reliable source that directly supports the material.' WP:BURDEN. This is why I will revert your hostile, knee-jerk reversion of my edits once again. My understanding is that you are the one engaging in an 'edit war', having reverted careful edits and restored disputed unreferenced material without cause using Twinkle. I am unclear precisely how to escalate the matter, but I will do that instead if you prefer, and if you or someone else instructs me how. In any case, I suggest that if you really think my edits are inappropriate, you leave them to someone else to revert, after they read this discussion and the comments I have made on the article's discussion page. Antiselfpromotion (talk) 01:23, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
A minor update: I was prepared to restore my edits per WP:BURDEN, for the reasons I described. But this was unnecessary because a significantly more experienced editor than I already did so on the same grounds. I have no personal stake in this matter, but I do not think that the way you have characterized my edits is fair, and I just want to state so for the record. Antiselfpromotion (talk) 01:29, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
(Note: I have reposted my reply above from from Andy Dingley's personal talk page, after he reposted his reply to my comments on that page here. I'm writing this just to avoid confusion. I suggest we continue any discussion, if necessary, here.) Antiselfpromotion (talk) 01:34, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Confirmation?

Uh-oh ... there may be confirmation :-( . I'm still a little hesitant, further confirms might be wise, given Misplaced Pages is not for breaking news. Seth Finkelstein (talk) 07:17, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Seems the discussion forums are running it. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 07:50, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
New York Times obit :-( -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 19:36, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Known method: hanging, people will want to know. 72.228.190.243 (talk) 20:05, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Who is John Galt ...

Demand Progress article

Interestingly, the Demand Progress article was just deleted yesterday... If I were a crazy person, I'd think there was a RIAA-MPAA conspiracy retaliating against Swartz and Demand Progress for their involvement in defeating SOPA. Fortunately, I'm not a crazy person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.228.33.38 (talk) 20:50, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
That seems ridiculous to me. Demand Progress has over 1M people on its subscriber list, and has been cited not only by national media and in connection with SOPA but on the RIAA and MPAA blogs... It's sad that we've gotten to the point where only 2-3 !votes suffice to delete articles with significant edit histories; it looked quite reasonably written, if in need of a few more national media cites. – SJ + 21:33, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Let's ask for deletion review and work on gathering sources. Looking around, I'm finding a lot of sources covering actions they took, but not a lot covering the organization itself in detail:

long list of sources and quotes
  • WPRI 2010: "Segal’s new project is Demand Progress, a federal political action committee and 527 he co-founded along with Aaron Swartz. They got to know each other during the congressional campaign – Swartz used to be with the Progressive Change Campaign Committee, which helped nudge Segal into the CD1 race. Segal is Demand Progress’ campaign director and Swartz is its executive director. “So far it’s been a lot of work on banking reform, free speech, and Internet freedom,” Segal said."
  • CNet 2011: "The progressive activists at Demand Progress could, reasonably, be viewed as the U.S. Chamber of Commerce's natural enemy on most technological topics...the Motion Picture Association of America had already claimed that Demand Progress was allied "with at least one--and who knows how many more--offshore rogue Web sites that promote the theft and illegal marketing of American products like movies, video games and software." David Moon, Demand Progress' program director, told CNET today that the Chamber's attack on his organization is a sign that an online anti-SOPA campaign is working."
  • PCWorld 2011: "More than 30,000 U.S. residents sent messages to their lawmakers early Tuesday, Demand Progress said, after the group called on its members to ask their elected representatives to refuse to sponsor the House version of PROTECT IP...Demand Progress will oppose the House bill if it looks like the Senate version, said David Segal, Demand Progress' executive director."
  • Variety 2011: "Demand Progress said 70 representatives of tech companies and advocacy groups held a strategy session over the weekend and have launched a campaign called "Censor Everything" week, with the goal of driving "more constituent contacts to Congress than we've seen in years," in the words of Demand Progress executive director David Segal."
  • WPRI 2011: "Since his unsuccessful congressional bid last year, former state Rep. David Segal has been keeping busy running Demand Progress, a new federal political action committee and 527 group he cofounded last year that advocates for civil liberties, net neutrality and related issues. But now Demand Progress is making news rather than responding to it. Segal’s Demand Progress cofounder, Harvard student Aaron Swartz, has been indicted for allegedly hacking into the academic database JSTOR and downloading more than 4 million articles."
  • TechDirt 2011: "MPAA Attacks Demand Progress With Ridiculous & Unsubstantiated Claims"
  • Fox News 2012: "David Segal, executive director of Demand Progress, an activist group responsible for the new Vote for the Net movement, called it "a big victory for the Internet,"" "Both President Barack Obama and former Gov. Mitt Romney had spoken at length about controversial Internet legislation such as SOPA in the past, but neither was willing to comment on the Demand Progress platform."
  • Huffington Post 2012: "The progressive advocacy group Demand Progress is taking a stand against Rep. Howard Berman (D-Calif.), amid rumors that he is being considered as a potential replacement for Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. The group is arguing that Berman's work on a host of controversial Internet issues, particularly his advocacy for the Stop Online Piracy Act, disqualifies him from the position."
  • PCWorld 2012: "More than 36,000 people have signed a petition, started by 'Net activist group Demand Progress in mid-August, calling on the two major parties to add Internet freedom language to their party platforms. Demand Progress reiterated its call for Internet freedom language in the platforms on Monday"
  • Raw Story 2012: "The advocacy group Demand Progress condemned the Obama administration on Thursday after the FBI took down one of the most popular file sharing websites on the Internet, Megaupload.com."
  • Torrent Freak 2012: "Political activist group Demand Progress has filed a brief in the Megaupload case, urging the court to disregard the MPAA’s concerns over the return of data to former Megaupload users. The group argues that Hollywood lobbyists are out to make it impossible for Megaupload users to access their property, effectively using the court case as a backdoor SOPA."
  • ZeroPaid 2012: "Demand Progress has filed a legal brief, joining the many in call to permit users who used MegaUpload legally to have their files returned."
  • Chicago Tribune 2013: "Swartz later founded the group Demand Progress and led a successful campaign to block a bill introduced in 2011 in the U.S. House of Representatives called the Stop Online Piracy Act, which generated fierce opposition in the technological community."
  • CNN 2013: "Swartz then engaged in Internet digital activism, co-founding Demand Progress, a political action group that campaigns against Internet censorship."
  • Salon 2013: "Demand Progress, a million-plus member civil rights organization, will begin mobilizing their members later this morning to urge the Senate to reject Brennan’s confirmation as CIA director."

The question is whether this meets WP:ORGDEPTH. I think it does - it fits the criteria of "If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources should be cited to establish notability" and "extends well beyond routine announcements and makes it possible to write more than a very brief, incomplete stub about an organization". Other thoughts? More sources? Dreamyshade (talk) 22:26, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Here's a mention in the Economist: Everything is Connected – SJ +
fwiw, Demand Progress is back and better than ever. Agreed it was foolish to delete in the first place. -- phoebe / (talk to me) 22:48, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Source links

Misplaced Pages Username AaronSw in Article

I removed the username User:AaronSw in the article in the section about Misplaced Pages: (diff). I took a look at the list of Wikipedians who also have articles and for a small sample of articles I picked I don't see the Misplaced Pages user name included there: Jimmy Wales, Harald Tveit Alvestrand, David Weinberger, Michał Zalewski, Arthur Rubin, Sue Gardner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jjjjjjjjjj (talkcontribs) 04:15, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

I inserted that username into the article when I originally wrote the Misplaced Pages section b/c it could be sourced. But since the others articles mentioned don't list their username I'm good with taking it out of this article and fully support your change. Thanks. --SouthernNights (talk) 12:24, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Footnoting Infogami/Reddit drama

There seems to be no disagreement that Swartz was co-owner of parent org Not a Bug after the merger, with controversy over the use of the term 'co-founder'. I moved details of the controversy to a footnote; not essential to the lede. – SJ + 08:39, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Support. I think you made the right call there. For what it's worth, I did a little journalistic research on this a while back, and essentially came to the conclusion he was in the right, though there's a bit of complexity in the gory details. But I believe it's unarguable he had both equity and the formal title of "co-founder", so the dispute boils down to connotation. Basically, I think it's a case where the others made a deal they later wished they hadn't, but it's not something that's subject to a "clawback". -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 09:31, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

EL's

I have added a video to the EL's. I'm well aware of WP:EL but it seems to me that a brief commercial-free piece where Swartz concisely sums up the SOPA campaign merits inclusion, especially as it is the only direct video link. It is not copyvio, and will be useful to people wanting to gain insight into Swartz's personality as well as the SOPA campaign. Wwwhatsup (talk) 10:04, 13 January 2013 (UTC)


Namecoin

Maybe Aaron Swartz's contribution to developing and discussing the Namecoin project is worth mentioning.

It is currently not widely used, but controversies like the ITU conference in Dubai around control of the internet show that in the future, a decentral, secure naming system could become extremely important for internet freedom.

  1. Squaring the Triangle: Secure, Decentralized, Human-Readable Names, Aaron Swartz, 6. Januar 2011
  2. Spelunking the Triangle: Exploring Aaron Swartz’s Take On Zooko’s Triangle Dan Kamninsky's blog, Dan Kaminsky, 13. Januar 2011

SOPA section

I was surprised that a SOPA section does not exist, so I have started one and included an expand section tag—I am not an expert on this subject, by any means, so the contributions of other copyeditors would be great.--Soulparadox (talk) 11:56, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Repetition

The information about potential fines and prison sentences is given twice over in two separate paragraphs. Read the article from top to bottom, and the repetition stands out. Uncle G (talk) 14:15, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Quinn Norton

Based on this BBC piece (where she is described as "Swartz's former partner"), and a piece by Quinn Norton herself, it appears that Swartz and Quinn Norton had a relationship. However, that is merely interpretation, albeit it strongly supported by those pieces - has anyone got any clearer sources? GiantSnowman 15:11, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Ethnicity?

I've read from some sources that Swartz was Jewish, but they're not sites I'd consider especially reliable. He does have a somewhat Jewish physiognomy, so it's not implausible.≥ Is there any information on this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.91.82 (talk) 22:10, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does not describe people as Jewish based on their 'physiognomy'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:17, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
The fact that his funeral will be held at Central Avenue Synagogue is a more reliable indication; also: . Whaledad (Talk to me) 16:43, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Then find an appropriate source, and add the necessary information to the article - though a source, rather than 'an indication', would be preferable... AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:38, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
His Jewish background is missing. I mean he had his service at a Synagogue I think that rules out him being Muslim. At least he should be tagged Jewish Americans.--Inayity (talk) 19:03, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Find a source. In this case, having services at a synagogue may be more indicative of his family's practice than Aaron's. Either way, NODEADLINE on putting a religious/ethnic label on a subject, especially if he didn't put that label on himself prominently. --HectorMoffet (talk) 21:59, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Yup. A Reliable source showing that he identified himself as a particular religion or ethnicity and you have extra data for an encyclopaedia article. The important thing, especially where there are living grieving relatives and friends, is to filter out the clutter of poor quality info out there. ϢereSpielChequers 05:43, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
I have to agree, the only Issue is Who is a Jew is not like being Muslim and the criteria for inclusion has always been tricky. Sometimes it is used to liberally. --Inayity (talk) 05:56, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Google translation of this refers to him as "famous Jewish hacker". Bus stop (talk) 03:31, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
Of course, as you know BLP also applies to the recently deceased. Need a citation of self-identification, not identification by others. Yworo (talk) 03:40, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
Yworo—I don't think WP:BLP requires self-identification for material found in the body of an article. Bus stop (talk) 03:55, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
I was speaking of the category, which I removed. Somebody returned it, I've removed it again, as the article current does not even have support for Jewish descent. Yworo (talk) 18:27, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

WP:BDP: "material about dead people that has implications for their living relatives and friends, particularly in the case of recent deaths, or notable suicides, is covered by this policy. Contentious or questionable material that affects living people or about the recently dead should be treated in the same way as material about living people." No-one has identified implications for living relatives/friends, and so the requirement for self-identification does not apply. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:14, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Compromise: Category:American people of Jewish descent

  • "Swartz grew up in an Orthodox home in Highland Park, Ill., outside Chicago. And though he became an avowed atheist as a teenager, ultimately rejecting religion, his life’s work was nonetheless infused with deeply engrained Jewish values of inquisitivness, scholarship, iconoclasm and a passion for social justice." Forward.com

This is the best (though not ideal) source for his family's religion. It also suggests that Swartz may not have identified as Jewish and that we should be cautious about identifying him as such without a self-statement from Swartz. Thoughts Ocaasi 19:19, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Typically, we apply WP:BLP for the first year after the subject is deceased. I have no problem with Jewish parentage with citation being added and adding category "American people of Jewish descent". However, unless we can show that Swartz made some statement of self-identifying with or following the Judaic religion, we should not assume any more than ethnicity. This is a Misplaced Pages-wide standard, and I am even dubious that changing that category to "American Jews" after a year serves our readers. It implies something we cannot prove if we don't have self-ident sources. Yworo (talk) 19:20, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
As I've indicated in response to Ocaasi's kind approach on my talk page, I support adding that category because on its own terms it's appropriate. On other matters: "American Jews" is ethnicity. On BLP -- or rather BDP: "material about dead people that has implications for their living relatives and friends, particularly in the case of recent deaths, or notable suicides, is covered by this policy. Contentious or questionable material that affects living people or about the recently dead should be treated in the same way as material about living people." No-one has identified implications for living relatives/friends, and so the requirement for self-identification does not apply -- and in particular identification as a Jew does not require self-identification with the "Judaic religion". If there is to be a straightforward mindless application of BLP(CAT) for one year following someone's death, then we will surely see revision of the policy via discussion on the talk page; at present, there is no such provision. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:34, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Personally, my concern is merely accuracy verifiability.
  • WP:BLP states: "Categories regarding religious beliefs or sexual orientation should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief or orientation in question, and the subject's beliefs or sexual orientation are relevant to their public life or notability, according to reliable published sources."
  • WP:CAT/R states: "Categories regarding religious beliefs of a living person should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief in question (see WP:BLPCAT), either through direct speech or through actions like serving in an official clerical position for the religion. For a dead person, there must be a verified consensus of reliable published sources that the description is appropriate."
  • Category:American people of Jewish descent: "Note: Listed are American people for whom reliable sources have been found indicating partial Jewish ancestry, but who are not Jewish."
Regardless of whether we defer to BLP or BDP or just V, the issue is whether or not Swartz was Jewish in the religious sense. While Judiasm can be both an ethnicity and a religion, identifying Swartz as descending from Jewish parents but not necessarily practicing Judaism strikes the right balance. If we add the American Jews category then it suggests that Swartz was Jewish by identification and practice not just ethnicity. I would desire a specific and narrower category such as to explicitly exclude religion; on the other hand, that is more or less just what accomplishes. So, in my mind this is problem solved given the sources we have. Ocaasi 19:46, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm familiar with the concern. I feel it even more strongly: really annoys me, because it implies that such people are not quite Jewish (otherwise why not come out and say: American Jews?). "American people of Jewish ethnicity" are -- wait for it -- American Jews. Adopting formulations that imply otherwise are highly problematic (and "American people of Jewish descent" does exactly this, in the language you quote). Again, I'm agreeing to "Americans of Jewish descent" because it is manifestly true. What is also obviously true (verifiable via sources) is that Swartz was Jewish. And: BLP doesn't apply here, per BDP (unless someone identifies implications for relatives/friends). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:53, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Where are the sources that demonstrate he was Jewish by self-identification? I've looked for them and haven't found them. Ocaasi 20:01, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm not aware that there are any. I'm arguing that the requirement for self-identification doesn't apply: one, because he wasn't Jewish in a religious sense, and two, because he is (sadly) no longer alive (and there are no identified implications for friends/relatives). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:04, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
So we're really looking for Category:American people of Jewish descent who were implicitly ethnically Jewish by birth but did not self-identify as Jewish in a religious sense. Ocaasi 20:07, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, but we don't use Jewish standards for determining "Who is a Jew". We use Misplaced Pages standards, which are quite well and clearly stated. In point of fact, the criteria that the religion be relevant to the subject's notabilty has not been established either. Please either follow the intent of Misplaced Pages policy with respect to religion and accept the fact that we distriguish between people who are ethnically Jewish and those who profess the religion. The "American Jews" category is a subcategory of a religious category; inclusion requires establishment of the subject's religious beliefs for inclusion in this category. It is not solely an ethnicity category. If you can't accept this, please avoid future editing of these categories, or work to change the policies and guidelines (good luck with that!) Yworo (talk) 20:11, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Could we have convenient links in this thread to Misplaced Pages policy and its rationale on identifying biographical subjects as Jews specifically, and ethnic and religious background more generally, when (as here) neither religion nor ethnicity was significant to the subject's notability? Thanks in advance. MarkBernstein (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:26, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

The WP:BLP, listed above, appears to require that Swartz's Jewish beliefs or ancestry is "relevant" to his notability. I think that's an open-and-shut question; it's not relevant. MarkBernstein (talk) 23:31, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
WP:BDP policy would not be applicable because there is nothing "contentious or questionable" and there are no "implications for…living relatives and friends". There are no Categories for "Observant Jews", "Nonobservant Jews", and "Semi-observant Jews" so that is not a possibility. Aaron Swartz neither converted to another religion nor renounced Jewish identity therefore he is not "of Jewish descent". He is simply an American Jew and should be Categorized accordingly. Bus stop (talk) 03:01, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
Bus stop is simply an obsessive Jew-tagger and should be ignored accordingly. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:07, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Suicide or Alleged suicide?

Medicalscholar (talk · contribs) has changed the cause of death from just suicide to "Alleged suicide", even though I've notified him on his user talk page that there are sources that definitely say it was suicide. Could someone else check and switch it on the article page? Techman224 06:22, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Removed. "A spokeswoman for New York's medical examiner later confirmed to Associated Press news agency that Mr Swartz had hanged himself." from BBC makes it clear. Ryan Vesey 14:30, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Oh yeah, like you've never ever seen someone's suicide be faked for obvious reasons. Here is Aaron’s Guerrilla Open Access Manifesto:

Information is power, but like all power, there are those who want to keep it for themselves.

The world’s entire scientific and cultural heritage, published over centuries in books and journals, is increasingly being digitized and locked up by a handful of private corporations.

Want to read the papers featuring the most famous results of the sciences? You’ll need to send enormous amounts to publishers like Reed Elsevier.

There are those struggling to change this. The Open Access Movement has fought valiantly to ensure that scientists do not sign their copyrights away but instead ensure their work is published on the Internet, under terms that allow anyone to access it.

But even under the best scenarios, their work will only apply to things published in the future. Everything up until now will have been lost.

That is too high a price to pay. Forcing academics to pay money to read the work of their colleagues? Scanning entire libraries but only allowing the folks at Google to read them?

Providing scientific articles to those at elite universities in the First World, but not to children in the Global South? It’s outrageous and unacceptable.

‘I agree,’ many say, but what can we do?’ The companies hold the copyrights. They make enormous amounts of money by charging for access, and it’s perfectly legal – there’s nothing we can do to stop them. But there is something we can, something that’s already being done: we can fight back.

Those with access to these resources – students, librarians, scientists – you have been given a privilege. You get to feed at this banquet of knowledge while the rest of the world is locked out.

But you need not – indeed, morally, you cannot – keep this privilege for yourselves. You have a duty to share it with the world. And you have: trading passwords with colleagues, filling download requests for friends.

Meanwhile, those who have been locked out are not standing idly by. You have been sneaking through holes and climbing over fences, liberating the information locked up by the publishers and sharing them with your friends.

But all of this action goes on in the dark, hidden underground. It’s called stealing or piracy, as if sharing a wealth of knowledge were the moral equivalent of plundering a ship and murdering its crew. But sharing isn’t immoral – it’s a moral imperative. Only those blinded by greed would refuse to let a friend make a copy.

Large corporations, of course, are blinded by greed. The laws under which they operate require it – their shareholders would revolt at anything less. And the politicians they have bought off back them, passing laws giving them the exclusive power to decide who can make copies.

There is no justice in following unjust laws. It’s time to come into the light and, in the grand tradition of civil disobedience, declare our opposition to this private theft of public culture.

We need to take information, wherever it is stored, make our copies and share them with the world. We need to take stuff that’s out of copyright and add it to the archive.

We need to buy secret databases and put them on the Web. We need to download scientific journals and upload them to file sharing networks. We need to fight for Guerrilla Open Access.

With enough of us, around the world, we’ll not just send a strong message opposing the privatization of knowledge – we’ll make it a thing of the past. Will you join us?

Does Aaron’s manifesto sound like someone planning suicide? 80.57.196.126 (talk) 19:27, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
This talk page is the first place I've seen which has claimed that the suicide was faked. Until some notable evidence arises which suggests his death was not suicide, there is no reason to qualify the word "suicide". Cmknapp (talk) 12:19, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Link to petition getting caught in the spam filter

WP:RSes discuss the white house petition. To provide readers with a direct link, we must add an entry to the spam-filter whitelist. This has been proposed at WT:WHITELIST, but they seem to have a bit of a backlog, so if anyone could speed up the whitelisting, it would help the article. --HectorMoffet (talk) 06:25, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

What would make a direct link to the petition appropriate? I assume you want to add it to the external links section? Online petitions are specifically not allowed per WP:ELNORyan Vesey 14:26, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Not in EL, but just seemed appropriate to add an inline ref citation linking to WH site when the text discusses that specific site (along with the existing secondary source reference of course). I don't think such a reference would constitute "spam" in this context. --HectorMoffet (talk) 17:05, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
It's still unnecessary to include since secondary sources refer to the petition and can be used as the reference. Ryan Vesey 17:54, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
My standard practices is that if the article refers to a notable article, you cite both secondary and direct for the readers. Then if it's truly promotional, it will get removed the natural editorial process. It's a minor but noted pity that our standard consensus-driven article-making practice can't play itself out on this article because of an overly broad technical limitation that was never intended to have this precise effect. ---HectorMoffet (talk) 18:05, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the problem is but I did add an EL to Petition to posthumously pardon Aaron Swartz --My76Strat (talk) 18:50, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Okay-- apparently the filter was literally just choking on the word petition in the WH domain name. Good Work My76Strat, you've de-glitched the glitch. --HectorMoffet (talk) 18:57, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Why was this archived? Discussion clearly wasn't finished. Including a link to an online petition is inappropriate. Ryan Vesey 18:58, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
    Yes I did see where ELNO#4 specifically prohibits "online petitions". Of course that correction was made through normal editing, which I support. The notion that it was prevented by a blacklist filter worried me a bit. --My76Strat (talk) 19:12, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Sorry to archive before it's time-- I asked a tech question, I got a tech answer, so I called it good. Glad you restored if discussion wasn't finished.
I'm inclined to agree with Vesey on us not including a straight link to the petition in the "External Links" section. We have like a hundred links in this article, but only 9 in the External Links section-- including a link there would stray too close to the guideline against promotion. --HectorMoffet (talk) 21:50, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Quote in death section

Isn't it POV to include "Aaron's death is not simply a personal tragedy, it is the product of a criminal justice system rife with intimidation and prosecutorial overreach. Decisions made by officials in the Massachusetts U.S. Attorney’s office and at MIT contributed to his death"? In fact, the section is filled with criticism of the charges; there's nothing neutral in that. Ryan Vesey 21:25, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

It's a quote, not a fact-- it's the charge leveled by the family in their official statement, and more to the point, that particular quote has been widely used in the WP:RSes. MIT and the US Atty's office will likely be producing similar statements we can use for balance. --HectorMoffet (talk) 21:54, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

WP:BLPNAME

Caution should be applied when identifying individuals who are discussed primarily in terms of a single event. When the name of a private individual has not been widely disseminated or has been intentionally concealed, such as in certain court cases or occupations, it is often preferable to omit it, especially when doing so does not result in a significant loss of context. When deciding whether to include a name, its publication in secondary sources other than news media, such as scholarly journals or the work of recognized experts, should be afforded greater weight than the brief appearance of names in news stories. Consider whether the inclusion of names of private living individuals who are not directly involved in an article's topic adds significant value. The presumption in favor of privacy is strong in the case of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved, otherwise low-profile persons.

The names of any immediate, ex, or significant family members or any significant relationship of the subject of a BLP may be part of an article, if reliably sourced, subject to editorial discretion that such information is relevant to a reader's complete understanding of the subject. However, names of family members who are not also notable public figures must be removed from an article if they are not properly sourced.

The emphases are mine. They describe the girlfriend/partner's situation - to a "T". The statement identifies its issuers as Swartz's "family and partner". That sure looks like "intentionally concealed" to me. Please consider WP:HARM and the Golden Rule. The name adds nothing to the wikipedia article. The newsrags have their standards, we have ours here on wikipedia. The two are not coterminous. Thank heavens.

This is a WP:BLP issue. Please do not reinsert the name. If someone else does, please revert it unless we reach a talk page consensus otherwise. The "presumption in favor of privacy" noted in the policy above is clearly against inserting it. WP:3RR does not apply to BLP issues. David in DC (talk) 21:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Definitely keep partner's name out of this unless she decides to become a more prominent figure. --HectorMoffet (talk) 21:52, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Ummmm... As a vigorous enforcer of BLPNAME (see Talk:2012 Delhi gang rape case), I must disagree with you. From that very statement: Aaron is survived by his parents Robert and Susan Swartz, his younger brothers Noah and Ben, and his partner Taren Stinebrickner-Kauffman. Unless I'm missing something, I think that that definitely constitutes willingness to be named. (For the record, I NOINDEXED this page yesterday, per BDP, so we're within the cone of silence.) — Francophonie&Androphilie 21:53, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
I have not given this enough thought yet to have a strong view, but I'd like to re-iterate David in DC's request that we proceed slowly and thoughtfully and get consensus before we move forward.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:59, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Originally I added the girlfriend's name because 1.) it was sourced, 2.) there was speculation that Quinn Norton may have been "the partner" based on her piece titled, "My Aaron Swartz, whom I loved". and 3.) the term "partner" gives an undue implication of a "same-sex" relationship; which in this case, is not correct. In adding the content, these two concerns were answered, yet I respect the privacy concerns raised and have no aggressive intent to include the content. I suppose my question would be why is the reference left in place when it only exists to support the inclusion of the persons name? --My76Strat (talk) 22:19, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
I don't see any particular reason why the name would be concealed or why she would want to conceal it. She certainly has nothing to be ashamed of! Wnt (talk) 23:12, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
I believe general precedent is that BLPNAME does not extend to references; it's a question of what we want to put forward as an encylcopedia, not of covering something up. I agree with Jimbo that caution is wise, and I also agree with you, as noted above, that there's grounds to include it (specifically that she has consented to be named). The one thing I disagree with is the note on same-sex relationships: She clearly made a choice to be termed his partner, despite any connotations that may carry; this probably has something to do with the fact that Swartz was open about having been sexually active with both men and women . Additionally, "Taren" is an obscure enough name that it's unclear if it's male or female anyways (to me, at least), so naming her doesn't clarify things much, unless you wanna add a footnote saying "Not a dude." — Francophonie&Androphilie 00:50, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
I don't see a need for a footnote when the sourced quote is "discovered by his girlfriend". That supersedes the ambiguity of the gender neutral name and by the way, I also felt that Quinn was a bit gender neutral. --My76Strat (talk) 01:07, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
I agree with Jimbo. I will ask about privacy preferences when I see them tomorrow. – SJ + 01:57, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
I agree as well; with David in DC in fact. If you mean that you will see the family tomorrow, please pass along my condolences by proxy and those of our editing community. Sentiments are accumulating at user talk:AaronSw#RIP. Thank you. --My76Strat (talk) 02:15, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Ditto. In terms of BLPNAME; She is just about notable in her own right - and a relatively public figure. So as a hardliner over BLPNAME I'd be less worried about this example, unless an explicit preference for privacy is expressed. --Errant 10:05, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

The source specifically identifies the partner's name, apparently by choice. Would a proper biography include this person by name? One would think so. The biography should also state the subject has two brothers (and stating their first names would also be fine). There is no reason however to decide any of these issues today. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:01, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

  • I wouldn't name her at all, WP:BLPNAME - she is not related to his notability in any way, she is not notable and their relationship isn't notable in any way either. Youreallycan 21:41, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
    • At best, she's got marginal notability from what I can find as well. While I personally believe that her using her name, intentionally, in the press release really gives us some latitude with respect to BLPNAME, I also don't see that, short of her being notable, that the name is particularly important, either. And I can imagine it being hurtful to include it, or to exclude it, depending on the preferences of the living person. In short, I don't personally have much left in the way of strong feelings about this. (Modified from a previous comment that was based on factually incorrect information, I've removed it rather than add to any confusion.) --j⚛e decker 22:01, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't know whether I'm doing this edit correctly formatting-wise, but as I told SJ yesterday in person I have no problem at all with being named in the article. I'm doing press interviews about Aaron's death and have been named and quoted in the WSJ and other prominent sources, and intend to do more interviews over the coming days. -- Taren Stinebrickner-Kauffman — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.164.201 (talk) 11:55, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Assuming that this is really from who it purports to be from, our analysis becomes simpler. There's still WP:BLP1E to consider right now. But if and when reliable sources start quoting the partner, the potential WP:BLPNAME issue evaporates. What will be left are questions of relevancy and editorial judgment. My knee-jerk concerns about WP:HARM and the Golden Rule fall by the wayside. I appreciate everyone taking a cautious approach in response to my boldface cri de coeur and possibly-overwrought exhortations. David in DC (talk) 20:44, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
Confirmed. – SJ + 14:50, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
SJ's word is the tipping point. Taren Stinebrickner-Kauffman is notable and BLP is satisfied. --HectorMoffet (talk) 20:40, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Westboro Baptist Church

Is this worth adding to the article? 216.93.234.239 (talk) 23:32, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps when it happens, if it receives significant coverage, but not just the threat. It's both premature and not really relevant to the public response as WBC protests are just trolling, so it's not particularly enlightening that they are thinking about targeting Swartz. Ocaasi 23:38, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
There's not only a "threat" though. It is both an announcement on their webpage (http://godhatesfags.com) and also a formal press release. Whether it is enlightening or not, it is notable that Westboro Baptist Church for specific reasons have targeted Swartz, albeit posthumously. 75.84.200.25 (talk) 11:23, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
WBC frequently promise to protest in any death that gets media attention, but then almost as often fail to do anything. "Don't feed the trolls" comes to mind. Jonathunder (talk) 15:28, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Removed NPOV violations and irrelevant material from

I have removed the bolded:

Third parties have used various analogies to explain Swartz's alleged offense to a wider audience. U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz justified the charges by stating "stealing is stealing, whether you use a computer command or a crowbar, and whether you take documents, data or dollars." Journalist Chris Hayes summed up the situation by saying "You should also know that at the time of his death Aaron was being prosecuted by the federal government and threatened with up to 35 years in prison and $1 million in fines for the crime of — and I’m not exaggerating here — downloading too many free articles from the online database of scholarly work JSTOR." Demand Progress said the indictment was like "trying to put someone in jail for allegedly checking too many books out of the library"

The removed statements are clearly written from a particular POV that feels that the case was unfairly brought. While that's not an invalid point of view, this page on Aaron Swartz is not made or maintained for the purpose of martyrdom or advancement of a non-neutral perspective. There are many problems with the removed statements, including but not necessarily limited to:

1. The statement by U.S. Attorney Ortiz is not an analogy, nor was it made by a third party; she spoke for the U.S. government, a party to the litigation, as the prosecutor on the case.

2. The opinion by Chris Hayes is not notable, nor is it neutral, nor is it factually correct, nor should the includer of the statement have given support to it. The statement is factually incorrect in stating that the basis of the charges was "downloading too many free articles from... JSTOR". JSTOR charges for access to its content, which it has a right to do (if not there would have been no reason for Swartz to commit the alleged crimes). I am bending over backward to be fair by leaving in the statement about JSTOR later allowing a minimum of free content to be viewed, with tight restrictions on method and amount-- note that allowing a small amount of free access as a teaser does not mean that all of one's intellectual property has been made free, or cannot be stolen. These are issues for courts to decide, not Misplaced Pages users intent on honoring the subject of a page before a court has ruled on the matter. In addition, to state that Chris Hayes "summed up the situation" is to assert the correctness of his summing-up, a huge NPOV violation that clearly indicates the intent of the original includer.

3. The statement by Demand Progress is heavily biased and irrelevant; of course they would weigh in with a comment supportive of Swartz in this situation, which they have a right to do. However, not only does their biased comment have no place in a factual discussion of the merits of the case, whatever those may be, but it is factually incorrect to boot. JSTOR documents cannot be checked out like books from a library and returned, a patently ridiculous claim. At the time of Swartz's alleged theft computer crimes, as remains true at the time of this comment, the vast bulk of JSTOR documents were accessible only for a fee, and were not "returnable" in any way analogous to returning a library book.

Internet activisim is all fine and dandy, but not the stuff of good Misplaced Pages pages, which must remain neutral. If anyone feels that the removals were improper, please feel free to discuss them here. CarthCarsen (talk) 12:47, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I think you are going to be challenged on some of this removal. The content should not be in boldface however, per MOS:BOLD. --My76Strat (talk) 12:58, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
(I used bold to indicate what I'd removed and what I'd left.) I think the removals are massively justified. In fact I question the neutrality of the article overall even after the removal-- the "public reaction" section reads like an ad for a martyr's headstone for Swartz. I haven't gone hunting for commentary yet, but it's not possible that the entire world approved of his activities. CarthCarsen (talk) 14:57, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. I just love it when an editor with 50 edits (or is it a lot more? It frequently is) pops up and spouts expert knowledge of policy at everyone. After all, it's only a couple of weeks since much of this article was blanked by another editor with an axe to grind and a username to show it.

Why should we expect Chris Hayes (or Larry Lessig) to follow NPOV anyway? Our need is to report what they wrote, and to do that much neutrally. What they think and write is a matter for them, not us.

Also will people please stop calling copyright breach "theft" (it isn't "piracy" either). Theft has a legal definition (which in UK law is quite specific as meaning that you have to deprive the original owner of the material, amongst other requirements). Unless Aaron walked out of a server room with a wheelbarrow full of HDs, he didn't "steal" a thing, no matter how you regard the legality of his downloading. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:36, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Andy Dingley, your personal style seems to be to attack other editors who have fewer posts than you, at least when you disagree with them. I am as entitled to edit and post here as you; at one point you too had fewer than 50 edits. I haven't blanked much of the article, just removed a few totally biased statements where they had no place, as well as an assertion by a previous editor that one of the biased statements described the situation accurately, and even erroneous statements that the prosecutor's statements were an analogy (nope) and those of a "third party" (nope). Like it or not, your apparent hero was a defendant in a criminal case, and biased statements from the defendant's supporters are not justification for trying the case here, after his death. CarthCarsen (talk) 14:57, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
I understand your sentiments. I think you are missing some of the finer points related to best editing practices, and perhaps bringing your own bias and original research to bear on the article. I posted a maintenance tag alerting readers of your contention, and suspect you will have an opportunity to address your concerns further. I would offer perspective on my understanding, but frankly I am biased at the moment and would more appropriately recuse at this point. Cheers, --My76Strat (talk) 15:12, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
When I'd made only 50 edits, I had no idea what "NPOV" meant, let alone how to hatchet articles along such a tightrope of policy. So my obvious suspicion is raised as to whether you're really a far more experienced editor, hiding behind a sockpuppet account. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:17, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
To be fair, this user has posted information on their user page that explains your befuddlement. It existed before this current situation, and by their contributions, they do not resemble an SPA. --My76Strat (talk) 15:23, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Thank you. I'm not a sock puppet. I am also not opposed to Aaron Swartz or out to minimize his legacy; fairness and accuracy are simply important to me. CarthCarsen (talk) 18:21, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
So please explain how NPOV applies to the statement, "The removed statements are clearly written from a particular POV that feels that the case was unfairly brought."
Of course they're POV statements. Of course that just doesn't matter (Off-wiki journos aren't bound by WP policy). If anything is a problem for POV on WP, it's this sort of unilateral blanking of one party's opinions. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:37, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm sorry for not being the most polished Wikipedian. For me the trigger was a combination of the third-party opinions being inserted without countervailing ones, the fact that they were both misleading, and the fact that the editor who inserted them did it in such a way as to imply that they were accurate. I probably wouldn't have batted an eye at factually correct statements, even if they contained opinion, made by Swartz's attorney. The inclusion of those particular opinions in that one-sided way made the whole section read like an opinion piece, to me. CarthCarsen (talk) 18:21, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
So, do all opinions in articles on Misplaced Pages need to be made by an attorney to be relevant? I would say that coming from an attorney would make them less relevant. I don't mean that as a jab at attorneys, I just mean attorneys are non-NPOV by definition in real life.199.38.162.15 (talk) 19:32, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Don't be silly. My point was that the one-sidedness flag would not have been raised if a statement by the government attorney was opposed by a statement from the defense attorney. My problems with the quotes included the 1) seeming inclusion of only one side of a third-party debate, 2) while dressing it up to make it seem like the U.S. Attorney was such a third party and just restating the obvious about the state's case without anything more, 3) with massive inaccuracies in the third-party quotes, 4) stated with an implied assertion as to the accuracy of the third-party one-sided statements. HTH. CarthCarsen (talk) 19:41, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

To be honest; I've only quickly scanned the removals, but I think it was an OK choice - it wasn't the best content. I'm always a bit dubious of contentious issues that get stuffed with quotes from various parties. I think it would be better to find some less opinionated (i.e. mainstream) content that covers all of the commentators statements and see what they pick up on. (Also; I'm a bit worried about using material from the last few days amongst the older material. I think that latter opinions should be identified as such, seems like good practice) --Errant 15:59, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

The back and forth -- who understands what, etc. -- needs to stop. This page is for discussing improvements to the article, and nothing else.
I agree with ErrantX, the recent removals seem worthwhile, and compliant with the NPOV policy. -Pete (talk) 16:10, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
I think there are ways to bring all of that content in, in some form, but that the way it was done so was a little POV. That's going to be a difficult problem to handle here, partly due to recentism but also because Aaron was "one of us" etc. Perhaps we can put forward some concrete suggestions for different methods of covering this matter --Errant 16:34, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
I think it would be good to hunt up representative positions from both sides; there must be some. In addition, since the removed quotes are in my opinion much more objectionable by virtue of misleading readers than by bias in favor of Swartz, I think that it might be a good time to consider making a page about the case itself. For now I've left some questionable statements in the article, such as the unsupported assertion that the case tested the limits of the CFAA (which doesn't seem to be the situation to me, but rather that the law is considered by many to be overbroad, and the penalties in situations such as this too harsh). On a page about the case itself, some decent treatment could be made about the assertions on both sides, more exploration of the opinions without sainting the man or attacking his legacy on this page, and everything would be copasetic. The case does seem to be of more than passing importance to me, at least in terms of social impact and possibly legally as well (I can't say at this point). CarthCarsen (talk) 18:21, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Is it me or is there a misunderstanding here about what WP:NPOV is for? NPOV specifically encourages "representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." - removing sourced, referenced quotes about the matter because those quotes themselves only represent one side is, I would suggest, not a valid use of NPOV unless the article itself contains ONLY quotes from one viewpoint and avoiding all others. There's clearly a balance to be struck - the article refers to the charges as laid, and conversely by representing the comments who have suggested the alternate viewpoint, proper NPOV is achieved. Removing the comments actually seems to breach NPOV more than including them does. Bonusballs (talk) 18:23, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Bonusballs, yes, it's good to survey the reaction. But it's a rather tricky task. The thing we should be looking to, to guide that coverage, is the highest quality secondary sources we can find -- that is, established publications making their determinations about what points of view are worthy of coverage. In this case, I think we should be looking to the points of view and quotations covered in the news coverage (as opposed to op-ed pieces) of the Economist, the New York Times, the LA Times, and the like.
At the same time, we should keep in mind that this article is the biography of a person -- not the place for an exhaustive survey of the reaction to his work. I think CarthCarsen is on the right track, above, to suggest a separate article about this court case, because a lot of the details under discussion here -- while important and interesting -- are not really about Aaron Swartz. -Pete (talk) 18:53, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I vote that the quotes are included. Can we bring this up for a vote? I put the material into the article not realizing there was already a discussion on the talk page about the quotations. I don't believe they are biased quotes. Using metaphor or other illustrative techniques does not indicate bias, it can be merely illustrative. For example, in the quote "downloading too many free articles from the online database of scholarly work JSTOR", that is exactly what happened. It is not biased, it is factual. He downloaded too many articles which were freely available for download, and it was believed by the prosecution that he was planning to profit off of the articles for which JSTOR was a distributor through another channel.

I believe that CarthCarson is biased against including the quotes because he personally believes Aaron was guilty of a crime, and in discussing the crime in the article he doesn't want dissenting and useful illustrative opinion alongside the prosecution's opinion. They are both opinions, and they are both useful to the readers of the article. 199.38.162.15 (talk) 19:19, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I must agree. I'm not quite sure what Carth is doing (and their barbed comments with phrases like 'thank you for signing in' when reverting my edits are baffling, as I only ever edit with this username) but it strikes me as highly suspicious that someone arrives, makes ten edits to a token article, and then starts citing WP policy apparently like an old hand, while editing articles of significant current controversy (both this and Computer Fraud and Abuse Act‎) to repeatedly remove any quotes from the defendants or their advocates. Perhaps this is a cultural difference but in my own country, if someone is accused of something, it's unbalanced and definitely not neutral to publicise their charges and not their denial of same, if so stated. It cannot breach WP:NPOV to give both sides of the argument using properly-referenced quotes and sources. Bonusballs (talk) 19:25, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
I believe you to be the same person as Bonusballs, right down to using a similar posting style. Do IP users get votes? If so I could probably rig up a way to massively skew things, not that I would.  :) First, if you want to remove the quote by U.S. Attorney Ortiz about the justification for the charges, please do so. It was fairly obviously included just as a weak attempt to show balance with the over-the-top biased quotes. In addition, the fact that certain articles may be released unpaid and at others for pay does not make them free to access in the main; in fact a number of newspapers and other sites now have a business model whereby a user is allowed a few token downloads before the charges begin (see boston.com for an example; you can read for a little while, then it prompts you to subscribe).
I don't want to wrangle over the rightness or wrongness of whatever it is Aaron Swartz was trying to accomplish with JSTOR, but overstating things in Swartz's favor in such a way does a disservice to all readers. The other quote is even worse-- it seems completely misleading to suggest that he was taking information which he wholly had a right to take in that (as one does a library book with a valid library card within the lending limits), that the information he was taking he was free to take without any charge, and that he was planning to (and could) put it back in a meaningful way. I don't really care at this point what the moral implications of his actions are, and I have NOT stated my belief in his guilt; skewing facts is simply wrong. Overstating the case is never the right path. CarthCarsen (talk) 19:35, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
What do you mean "I believe you to be the same person as Bonusballs"? You are talking to Bonusballs! I am Bonusballs, my comments and edits are all signed with this name, and this name only. I do not edit from any other IP address. But to the main point of your argument - it is not "overstating things" to report something that has been said about the case, just because it appears positive towards the defendant. The "checking too many books out of a library" quote was very widely reported and is clearly felt to be a significant alternate viewpoint. I don't see why it seems so important to you to remove such viewpoints from articles. Bonusballs (talk) 19:41, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
I disagree that your feeling that a third-party viewpoint which egregiously misstates the situation, but has been repeated to a certain point by the faithful, makes it worthy of inclusion in an article as a supposedly valid explanation of a court case where most readers will understandably be fuzzy on the legal details without a full explanation. Inaccurate memes are not worthy of inclusion by being successfully retransmitted. CarthCarsen (talk) 19:50, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Your use of terms like "the faithful" is inherently non-neutral. Likewise it is not for you to decide that someone's quote "egregiously misstates the situation" - that is your opinion, and your opinion has no bearing on a Misplaced Pages article. Only published facts and quotes from reliable sources, presented in a neutral manner. You may disagree with them but it is not for you to remove them for that reason alone. Bonusballs (talk) 19:52, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Don't be ridiculous. My use of terms like "the faithful" conveys that I consider Swartz to be the subject of burgeoning cult status, not that I can't be neutral about the subject matter of the article. That is, noting the extreme partiality of others does not make me non-neutral-- not that I'd have to be anyway. It's the article that must be neutral. In addition, it is my place, as it is anyone's, to note opinion-laden falsehoods shoehorned into Misplaced Pages pages. I hope you do so on the pages you edit, where you're not so personally involved. CarthCarsen (talk) 22:33, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
"Carth", your behaviour is baffling. You arrive out of nowhere with a seemingly encyclopaedic knowledge of wikipedia terms, and then start making ludicrous personal attacks against anyone who disagrees with you. You've already accused me of sockpuppeting and editing while signed out (both untrue) and now you suggest I am somehow 'personally involved'? Nonsense. Utterly untrue. My only interest in this page is your blatantly lop-sided attempts to remove referenced material, against consensus. Whereas with the exception of the initial 10 edits you made to Vorephillia all your edits have been for the single purpose of removing referenced information from this article and Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. As has been said, if you wish to improve the page by providing more and better references, go right ahead. But removing one side of the discussion achieves the reverse of the neutrality you claim to seek. Those "opinion-laden falsehoods" are THE WORDS OF THE DEFENCE. You are NOT the judge and jury. We hear from both sides. You might have thought that someone who was supposedly in the legal profession would have a greater understanding of the importance of such things. Bonusballs (talk) 06:54, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm humbled (blushing actually) that my plain language, adorned by the use of the term "NPOV", has made me seem encyclopedically knowledgeable. With this feather in my cap, I will be spurred on to greatness here. Neither the Demand Progress statement nor the one by Hayes is THE WORDS OF THE DEFENSE: one's a statement by a guy at an organization Swartz co-founded, one's a statement by a journalist, and both are inaccurate. Of course I'm not the judge and jury, and plenty of others here saw bias as well. In the future, try to look at the truth of the situation instead of assuming those who disagree with you are biased; examine yourself. (You seem to have followed me over to the CFAA page-- looks like I've got a pet, eh? There, just as here, presenting one viewpoint much more strongly than another shows bias. You're best off sticking to the facts if you are unable to control your bias.) CarthCarsen (talk) 08:28, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
I am assuming that there is something wrong with your keyboard, as the conventional behaviour when making false accusations against another editor is to withdraw them and apologise, not to make things worse by making further accusations of bias. Ultimately the material you tried to remove was instead reinstated and improved, and the concensus on this talk page reflects that. That's how Misplaced Pages works. As to your apology, I'm sure that it will be forthcoming. Bonusballs (talk) 09:05, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
There's nothing wrong with my keyboard. I think at this point we are even, whoever you are, as you've suggested that I am using a sockpuppet account.
You are correct-- in the end, in a context dominated by those who intend to suggest that the prosecution of Aaron Swartz was wrongful, and bent on including opinion which misstates facts to get that idea across, someone pointing out facts to the contrary may be overwhelmed. Much bias remains in the JSTOR section, such as the inclusion of a statement by Swartz's paid expert witness about the evidence he would have presented, without balance-- of course it's only there to gripe about the 35-year maximum sentence, ignoring that the maximum would never realistically have been imposed, as well as that there was a deal on the table providing for six months' incarceration. It's biased fluff, with no place in the article. Not as egregious as when we began this, with one of the same Misplaced Pages folks continuing to hope for a biased presentation suggesting that egregious misstatements of fact accurately summed up the situation.
The editing of this particular section of this page should be a source of shame to many who participated. It just goes to show that all the bleating about neutrality doesn't apply in the same way when a friend dies. Maybe you whom I address are all good friends / idolators, but you are terrible Wikipedians when you can subjugate neutrality to your own interests. CarthCarsen (talk) 17:31, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Nope, not the same person. You can get an admin to tell you the same. My IP is a shared IP for the 225 south sixth building in Minneapolis, which is pretty obvious from the other edits from my IP address. I do not think the attorney's opinion should be removed as well as the other opinions - I think they should all be included, though I'd be willing to give up the library one as a compromise. I'm disliking Misplaced Pages more and more over the years just because of this; articles, in reaching some consensus, just contain less and less information. Useful information which was once there, which I remember being there, is gone because people decide to remove everything of note simply because people can't agree on what to include. It's better to over include than to under include for the readers of Misplaced Pages. They come for information, they don't care as much as high-volume editors on what is notable and what isn't, and they don't care about our stupid arguments either.
But in continuing this stupid argument, your paywall analogy is a bad analogy in one sense. Paywalls are not contracts (you should know this as an attorney yourself.) You are not bound to the terms of a paywall if the content is accessible by merely accessing cached copies of the pages (which is one way to get around them), and you are not bound either if you merely turn off javascript and cookies (another way to get around them.) In neither case have you made any contractual agreement with the newspaper website, and in neither way are you hacking or cracking their site. JSTORs articles are the same, in this sense of your analogy. You can write a Perl script to do GUI operations to scrape articles in as reasonable a way as you would do by hand, without breaking a contract, in a much more efficient manner. Google is just as guilty for creating links with subheader information from newspaper pages without paying the paywall as Aaron was for scraping JSTOR content, and Google has been found not guilty of that many times in many countries. 199.38.162.15 (talk) 19:56, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
You're essentially trying to exonerate Aaron Swartz, regarding a case that can now never be tried, without adequate presentation of the facts, based on your personal feelings. You should be recusing yourself, not arguing further. This page is simply not the place to drum up support about your biased perception of unfairness. Yes, he was a popular figure among many Wikipedians and other relatively web-techie types. Yes, there are good reasons for that; and nevertheless some people, whose job it is to have some degree of wisdom on these things, thought that he broke the law. Whether he did or not, no amount of misleading quotes from his own organization and other heavily biased sources are going to aid this article in being factually correct. In a full treatment of the case, maybe; but the article is still misleading as it stands at this moment. CarthCarsen (talk) 22:33, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Just what kind of bias is that? Hindsight bias? Ethnocentrism? And when is a personal feeling no longer personal? When there is consensus, or when there is empirical evidence? There is both consensus that collecting and collating data is legal if you're not breaking or impersonating credentials in an authorization scheme, breaking an encryption scheme, or violating a reasonable expectation of privacy, and there is empirical evidence to the same, see United States vs Nosal.
I appreciate the spirited discussion, but please don't forget that there are also many people who have some degree of wisdom on these things who believe he did not break the law. Lawyers included. But I don't believe notable comments made on cases are limited to lawyers or experts in positive law.
As for biased perceptions of unfairness, you mistake impression for perception. Any impression of unfairness is philosophically biased. Unfairness and justice are both constructs, neither exists naturally, kind of like artificial scarcity. It is a biased impression of unfairness that he could have gone to prison for 35 years or more and that helping al-Qaeda develop a nuclear weapon carries a maximum sentence of 20 years, or that killing someone in a heat of passion has a maximum federal sentence of 10 years. It's just bias that we believe we perceive this as unfair, I recognize that as a fact; I agree with you that this belief is an impression of unfairness. But what we publish on Misplaced Pages are both scientific facts, human perceptions, and impressions, because perception and impression are significantly meaningful aspects of science and constructs of culture. 199.38.162.15 (talk) 00:15, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
I enjoyed your comments. Let's create a page for the case, and really make a good show of it. It will cure the current problems neatly, and add useful information for all time. What's pretty obviously been happening is that bias of those who loved Swartz and his work is causing the page to turn out, despite best intentions, as an attempt to portray him as the victim of a massive railroading. The case needs to be explored in depth because it's important, and also because the issues raised cannot properly be addressed in such a limited space. A full exploration of all the facts and treatment of all the issues will put things in the proper light, and the readers can draw their own conclusions as they like. CarthCarsen (talk) 00:40, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
I agree that a stand alone article would be a good encyclopedic inclusion. I would also like to express that this article is in a current state of flux, as the {{Recent death}} tag intends to convey. It is tolerance of this changing nature that will end in a balanced, informative biography for Aaron Swartz, and show which areas require a separate article for any aspect of disproportionate notability. The best thing to do for now is to ensure content is reliably sourced, faithfully transcribed, and not given favor over opposing views, or counter-intuitive inclinations. The main copy editing will begin after the recent-ism wanes to stability. --My76Strat (talk) 01:11, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
another view

I have to agree with others-- the material removed served a purpose and should be retained (or improved upon). The prosecution itself was controversial long before Swartz's death-- it was not at all clear that what Aaron did was a "real" criminal offense under the law. This is a valid opinion and must be included in the JSTOR section for that section to be NPOV. Removing the MSNBC and DemandProgress quotes tip the scales away from NPOV. Find better quotes if we can, but zero quotes won't work. --HectorMoffet (talk) 19:58, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I'd just like to chime in that if Aaron was a principle founder of Demand Progress it seems clear that it could not be used as a reliable source because it could never be "independent of the subject". --My76Strat (talk) 22:13, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Good point. While we discuss this and look for optimal sources, I've at least noted Swartz' relationship to the organization in the sentence where we quote from it. Ocaasi 22:40, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
I've deleted the statement again. The library analogy can only mislead readers. Similarly I would not expect to see, on the page for Bernie Madoff, a statement by an organization founded by Madoff that his alleged crimes were in the nature of borrowing money to be put back, harming no one. It's throwing Misplaced Pages's support behind biased, misleading statements that is attempted by the inclusion of that statement. In no way was what Swartz allegedly did like borrowing library books-- it's misleading in so many ways I can't believe we're still here discussing it. CarthCarsen (talk) 22:45, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Good move. The library analogy is one of the most foolish things ever written in world history and is not fitting for an encyclopedia as the source of the statement is not reliable. AutomaticStrikeout (TC) 22:59, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Bernie Madoff? So you feel this page would be objective if it made Aaron look as bad as or comparable to Madoff? JonErber (talk) 23:13, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! CarthCarsen (talk) 23:32, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Chris Hayes is not Demand Progress, and his statements are independent of the subject. I should also say that I strongly favor letting the subject have his say; even if Demand Progress is not neutral, we should still make sure that Swartz's point of view is well covered. The library analogy seems reasonable to many people, as in fact Swartz could have read any one article at MIT and made a printout for his archives just as many visitors do at any college library in the world. Please avoid giving original research precedence over quotes sourced to respected journalists. Wnt (talk) 23:15, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
    I think it would be much better to include in the article statements from Swartz's attorney about the case. Those are as close as we can come to his position. Printing a single selection from an electronic library is not the same as downloading nearly the whole thing. He'd have to be pretty buff to cart 4.9 million papers and books out of a library, and the lending library analogy is also false because far from planning to "return" the information, he allegedly planned to spread it worldwide. CarthCarsen (talk) 23:32, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
    The library analogy only becomes analogous if you metaphorically contrast every library's "lending limits" to one's ability to check-out 1/5th of a library's content, and what door is used to remove the books; front or back. It would be a crime at every library in operation for the material to be removed secretly through the back door, I'm as certain of this as I am of Paris' location. --My76Strat (talk) 23:43, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Better?

I added this:

George Washington University law professor and computer crime specialist Orin Kerr commented on the legal blog Volokh Conspiracy, “The charges against Swartz were based on a fair reading of the law...Once the decision to charge the case had been made, the charges brought here were pretty much what any good federal prosecutor would have charged.”

Is that sufficient to remove the NPOV section tag? Ocaasi 22:05, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I think that there are still multiple problems with NPOV regarding this article, but it is a step in the right direction. For just one example of the remaining bias from the same section, I note yet again the statement about Swartz's case testing the reach of the statute under which he was charged. It seems like original research, and is unsupported by anything except the apparent belief system of certain posters here. The main thrust of the case seems to be the overbreadth of the statute and whether basic fairness should have resulted in less harsh treatment, not whether what Swartz allegedly did fell within the prohibitions of the statute. CarthCarsen (talk) 23:01, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
As it stands now, at 10:10 pm EST, 15 January 2013, the articles treatment of the prosecutor's prosecutorial rationale is WP:NPOV-compliant. The rationale comes first, in the words of the prosecutor. Next, Professor Kerr supports her rationale.
Three distinct, though interrelated criticisms follow. All belong in the article.
A) Hayes: Whether or not he's right about "free" is irrelevant. Arguing that he's factually wrong betrays a truly idiosyncratic view of WP:RS and WP:NPOV. It matters not one whit. What matters is that he's a journalist and that he said the stuff in the quote on MSNBC. It critiques the prosecutorial rationale that something was stolen.
B) Demand Progress: DP's connection to Swartz needss disclosure. As it stands in the article now, it's disclosed. DP makes a slightly different point in criticizing the government's theory of the case. Rather than Hayes' view --- that one can't steal something that's free --- DP says the stuff taken was akin to borrowing too many books from a library at once. The DP quote doesn't argue that there was no misbehavior, but rather that the misbehavior was so small, and the penalties sought by the government so severe, that the prosecution was fatally disproportionate.
C) Stamos: The concluding quote provides the reader with an important part of how the prosecution's case would have been answered if Swartz had lived to see a trial. It's important, notable information, from a reliable source, about Swartz's actual defense. This is critique that is different in kind, and not just in degree, from the other two. It must stay.
Now, although "!voting is evil" (c'mon, somebody hadda say it), consensus is important. By counting characters or lines, I think Ortiz + Kerr tallies out about the same as Hayes+DP+Stamos. If we're to reach consensus a different way, like, for instance, 2 pro and 2 con, I'd be happier losing DP than Hayes.
As I said, in my view, dropping Stamos is a non-starter.
OK, I've made my edits, once, and explained my rationale. Others have been taking two, three or four bites at this apple. Please stop. Please revert no more. I'm begging y'all, stop the incipient edit-war. Let us reason together.
Thanks.
Hugs and kisses,
David in DC (talk) 03:30, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure the issue is whether we include Hayes and Demand Progress so much for balance, but whether they reflect the best available legal commentary on the case. Swartz's expert witness, for example, is in a much better position to weigh in than either Hayes or DP. My suggestion would be to compromise for now and pick either Hayes or DP (since they basically voice the same argument) and see if that settles things. 03:41, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
As I said, given that choice, I'd drop DP. What do others's think? Andy? Carth? Occasi? David in DC (talk) 03:53, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
re: the choice of Stamos quotes, the one you prefer strikes me as flashier but as containing less actual legal analysis. I believe part of the concern with the 3 pro-Swartz legal commentaries is they are heavier on heat than light. Perhaps consider whether Stamos' specific arguments would be more useful than his nutshell summation. (also, to sign just a datestamp, use five ~ rather than four. Ocaasi 04:16, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
I would favor dropping the DP quote from this page at some point, at the very least after the new page is created for the case. Even if one likens the "Register and Read" process of accessing only three documents at a time, keeping them in one's "shelf" area, to borrowing a physical book, it would still be incorrect to say that Swartz thus "checked out" too many resources-- when one checks out a book from the library a librarian typically scans it out, or there's some other method of controlling the checkout to make sure it's proper. Swartz's action would be more like walking out of the scholarly section at a paid version of the Library of Congress with 4.9 million (minus three?) unchecked-out resources under his arm, with the intent of giving away copies for free. I guess as hyperbole it might make a reader think, but that hyperbole/skewing can only be understood by presenting it properly in a setting of facts. CarthCarsen (talk) 09:49, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
It's not really the role of an article to make judgements on the statements of others. The moment you say "Well we won't reflect this viewpoint because it is wrong", you start moving away from neutrality. It is legitimate to quote what people of relevance and importance have said. If they are wrong, they are wrong - but their quote stands for itself and it is for readers to make the judgement, not for editors to prevent that judgement by hiding the viewpoint. Bonusballs (talk) 09:53, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
Presenting inaccurate statements, without providing enough context to show why they're inaccurate, to support an agenda is simply wrong no matter how many words you waste in justifying it. Thus when one includes a statement suggesting that Aaron Swartz did nothing different from checking too many books out of a library, without presenting enough information for readers to understand why that's false (he didn't go through an analogous proper method of access, etc.) it is an NPOV violation. In similar vein we wouldn't allow unanswered statements by some commentator on Obama's page that he is a Kenyan, without enough information for readers to actually judge for themselves. I suspect at this point you're simply intentionally turning a blind eye to the obvious. Of course shoving a bunch of pro-Swartz opinions into the article without supporting context is biased. CarthCarsen (talk) 17:41, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
If you have an example of "supporting context" that is presented by a reliable, referenced source, then go ahead and include it. In the meantime, it is not for you to unilaterally decide the rights and wrongs of a complex situation like this, it is not for you to edit or surpress quotes given by connected entities, it is not for you to add your own additional commentary pointing out what you think are errors in what other rather more newsworthy individuals have stated. I have to say that your pattern of edits and edit comments seem so vehemently anti-Swartz that it's difficult to see your supposed objectivity which you claim to be bringing. Removing a picture of Aaron from the Jstor article, for example, with the bizarre and rather sarcastic comment that 'Including the smiling face of Aaron Swartz smacks of hero worship and a hidden agenda' is nowhere near a neutral position. Bonusballs (talk) 19:24, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
I agree with User:CarthCarsen on this. Let's for the moment ignore the inaccuracy of the Hayes quote. Focus instead on what makes the quote potentially inaccurate. Hayes is not a legal expert. For that matter, neither is Segal. The Hayes and Segal quotes should be removed. Legal commentary should be restricted to legal experts within this context. Even the Stamos quote is somewhat frustrating. Expert witnesses are allowed to testify based on how their expertise pertains to the facts of the case. Their opinion on sentencing would not be allowed in court, and likewise overextends their expertise here. There are almost certainly legal experts and law professors with quotes favorable to Swartz. There are also almost certainly expert witness quotes confined to their realm of expertise that favor Swartz. Why not use superior sources for commentary? Chicken Wing (talk) 10:20, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
+1 to what David in DC said. The Hayes and Stamos quotes show us "why the prosecution itself is controversial"-- one is a legal opinion, one is a political opinion, and this case touches on both. Demand Progress, meanwhile, is a clear partisan with ties to Aaron himself, so, include it, but disclose the connection. The version I see right now looks good and resolves a lot of the concerns raised further up above. Good work all. --HectorMoffet (talk) 07:09, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages username

Just wondering - what was Aaron's nickname here on Misplaced Pages (I assume he had one if, as written, he "volunteered as an editor at Misplaced Pages")? Kubek15 14:59, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

AaronSw (talk · contribs) Andy Dingley (talk) 15:19, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
I wandered over here when someone first broke the news at AN (never having worked with Aaron on Misplaced Pages, but having read about him in the past), and saw that the {{Connected contributor}} tag was still up on this talk page. I removed it, mostly because it's always been a bit harsher than it needs to be, so it seemed especially inappropriate on the biography of a now-deceased well-respected contributor. If someone would like, I can come up with some sort of more respectful talkpage template for notable Wikipedians who've passed away. — Francophonie&Androphilie 17:43, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
I agree that {{connected contributor}} is harsher than it needs to be, in general. Thank you for removing it from this article; I think the best thing would be to rewrite that template in a way that is not accusatory. Plenty of people manage their conflicts of interest just fine, and don't need to have a scarlet letter permanently attached to their bios. -Pete (talk) 06:16, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. --Another Believer (Talk) 20:48, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
Please see here for discussion of a proposed template I've made for the talk pages of articles on deceased Wikipedians. Also, someone remind me to start a discussion at Template talk:Connected contributor on incorporating a version of it for users who are clearly in good standing (like a "good=yes" parameter or something). — Francophonie&Androphilie 23:35, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

JSTOR section

The JSTOR section currently opens with the prosecution for what Swartz did. But media coverage has focused as much on what he did, as on the consequences. I think it would be worthwhile to rewrite a bit, focusing initially on what he did, and bumping the fact that he was being prosecuted to maybe the second paragraph.

In addition, it would be good to work in the fact that JSTOR opened access to its public domain holdings shortly after settling its case against him. (source) -Pete (talk) 16:19, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Plus JSTOR did so just days before the alleged suicide. So if anything, Aaron had reason enough to throw a HUGE party! This decision by JSTOR (would have) killed the entire case-load had against him! 80.57.196.126 (talk) 19:22, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Note that the access to the public domain articles was permitted shortly after the prosecution began, i.e. shortly after the event itself. The thing recently was about expanding some kind of limited quantity of access with a free account signup that began a year ago (see JSTOR). Wnt (talk) 23:18, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
To expand on Wnt's reply (I started mine before his appeared)—80.57.196.126, you are getting two different things confused. What JSTOR did right before Aaron's death was expand its Register & Read program by 4.5 million documents. This is where they allow the general public to read, every two weeks, up to 3 articles that are at least 3 years old. The articles are only from certain journals, and must be read online, although some can be downloaded for a fee. JSTOR said the expansion of this program had nothing to with the Aaron Swartz matter. This is already mentioned here in our article, in the last paragraph of the JSTOR section.
What Pete was referring to was back in September 2011, when JSTOR did something that actually was in response to the Aaron Swartz and Greg Maxwell situations: they accelerated the implementation of their Early Journal Content program which was already in the works to make 500,000 public domain articles (pre-1923 U.S. publications, and pre-1870 non-U.S. publications) from 200+ journals available for free access by the general public. I agree this should be added. I had removed mention of Greg Maxwell's 2011 protest torrent of a sizable chunk of JSTOR's PD content as non-notable, but it might have to be added back in. —mjb (talk) 01:01, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I semi-agree with Pete about using chronological phrasing. It was my first impulse to try to rephrase the section as proposed, but as I started to do it, I realized that I was going to be asserting that he did things that were the actually the subject of dispute. I mean, I don't think any part of the story was ever public until after his arrest, was it? And even then, what was reported were accusations, not confirmed facts. What exactly has Swartz or his legal counsel publicly admitted to?

Since there's no authoritative narrative of what he did, we have to be very careful about kicking off the section with something like "In December 2010 and January 2011, Swartz did X Y and Z". Did he really do those things? The recent, posthumous media reports state all sorts of things he supposedly did as if they were undisputed facts. But at the time of his arrest, when he was still living, the press was much more careful to refer to things as mere allegations made in the government's indictment and in JSTOR's press release. If nothing more has been publicly confirmed, then I see no reason to abandon WP:BLP.

I mean, just because journalists aren't doing their jobs doesn't mean we shouldn't hold ourselves to a higher standard. We can say what actions he is said to have undertaken, explicitly attributed to whoever says so, and we can say what crimes he was subsequently charged with, in relation to those alleged actions. But it was not a certainty that he did every act he is said to have done, nor is it a certainty whether all or any of those acts meet the definition of the crimes with which he was charged. That was the dispute that was pending and never resolved, and would never have been resolved without a jury trial or a change of plea. —mjb (talk) 01:01, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

You make a good point, and I'm sorry to say that without carefully reading the more reputable sources' coverage (which I don't have time for at the moment), I don't know the answer. I think holding ourselves to a higher standard is a good idea, but at the same time, that standard needn't be "perfection." If reliable sources have seen fit to assert that X is true, even though X was not admitted to in a legal case, I would consider that sufficient for us to assert that X is true in this article (with clear attribution). -Pete (talk) 06:24, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposal to create separate article about JSTOR case

The more details we report about the case and the fallout from it, the further we are drifting from an Aaron Swartz biography. This article needs to be mainly about Aaron. Of course we have to say something about the case, but the complete chronology of what JSTOR did, what MIT did, what the Secret Service did, what the federal prosecutor did, and what the lawyer said all really belongs in an article about the case itself. So I feel that a better use of our energy right now would be to fork the JSTOR section, with the main article being United States v. Aaron Swartz, and just have a terse one- or two-paragraph summary and link here in the Aaron Swartz article. Would anyone object to this? —c(talk) 01:01, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Seems reasonable to me, in keeping with WP:SUMMARY. This article should primarily be about the person and his work. The things done in reaction to his work needn't be exhaustively detailed in this article, but would be more appropriate in an article about the legal case. -Pete (talk) 06:11, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
I wouldn't start "trimming"/"summarizing" this article yet-- still lots of flux; but I see no problem whatsoever in creating United States v. Aaron Swartz and doing chronologies, more details. Good idea, C/Mjb--HectorMoffet (talk) 07:13, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes to a separate article about the case; no to cutting significantly from this one (at least at this stage). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:36, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
Agree. Lenny Kaufman 00:43, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Also agree. Leave the material that is here and go into greater detail, of which there is no shortage, in the new one. Jusdafax 08:26, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Ditto. Bonusballs (talk) 09:34, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Naval gazing bloat - Misplaced Pages is involved

Please be careful not to seriously inflate this persons notability and importance. Misplaced Pages (it's users) are involved in this person. - Youreallycan 22:03, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Considering a good chunk of mainstream media and particularly tech media is all over this story, I think we're reflecting its importance pretty fairly. Any specific criticisms? Ocaasi 22:07, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes, the tech media low grade citations are involved as well , this is all part of the bloat that wikipedia editors are active in promoting here - please consider avoiding such opinionated in the moment articles and look for longer term historic national and international articles to add content with. Youreallycan 22:24, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
And is the New Yorker involved? Rich Farmbrough, 22:41, 15 January 2013 (UTC).
Its been covered in multiple NPR segments, including several times on All Things Considered, that is about as main stream as you get. Monty845 22:48, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
NPR segments, including several times on All Things Considered - personally my experience of that online publication is low - the new yorker link , is an opinionated blog post by, a Tim Wu , he has one other blog post, diff - avoid the opinionated low quality opinionated sources. The article is already overly bloated and needs some trimming - Youreallycan 22:55, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
You say opinionated blogger, I say Columbia law professor. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:57, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Whatever, he's a blogger of irrelevance - his opinions are not notable and should not be propagated using en Misplaced Pages - Just - pointing the finger to the problem - do with it whatever you want Youreallycan 23:00, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
In what way is he "a blogger of irrelevance"? (I suspect Lessig falls under the same criteria too). This is a respected professor from a major university who has been asked by an internationally known magazine to give his opinion. This is entirely the sort of comment by a substantial and reliable commentator that we are looking for. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:05, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
No one has asked him to give his opinion - he has simply posted a blog post - his opinions are irrelevant to this subjects notability and are simply opinionated bloat - he and his opinions are not notable in any way.Youreallycan 23:09, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
He's not a blogger, in any sense of being a regular blogger with the New Yorker, this is just how they present their news desk as "a blog" and he's their invited pundit for this topic. As to notability of him and his opinions, then firstly that's irrelevant (This isn't an article on him, so why would WP:N be relevant?) and also, this is a fairly major news publication commissioning his opinion piece. What else does WP:RS apply to, if not deliberately commissioned pieces such as this? Andy Dingley (talk) 23:17, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
There's a Misplaced Pages article about him, if you don't think he's notable, you're perfectly free to nominate his article for deletion. RNealK (talk) 23:19, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Agreed - notability is irrelevant. Claiming "less notability than you think, really" is no excuse to remove reliable sources. Wnt (talk) 23:27, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
A fine point, since I know you were speaking mostly rhetorically, but technically this article cannot be nominated for deletion as long as its linked to from the main page. Lest any radical deletionists get any ideas. — Francophonie&Androphilie 07:34, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
Is Tim Berners-Lee non-notable? He seemed to think Mr. Swartz was important. He tweeted, "Aaron dead. World wanderers, we have lost a wise elder. Hackers for right, we are one down. Parents all, we have lost a child. Let us weep." Wendy Kaminer called him a "martyr". RNealK (talk) 23:40, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

This discussion would be a lot more productive if there were a specific proposal on the table of how the article should be improved. -Pete (talk) 00:39, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

This article received 164K views today. Obviously the public (outside of Misplaced Pages) is interested in this story. petrarchan47tc 06:01, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
We're Misplaced Pages-- just about everyone in tech is connected to us somehow-- I see no navel-gazing bloat, just business as usual. --HectorMoffet (talk) 07:17, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
I think there is some recentism here, but I don't really object to it. The article is decently balanced. The subject is notable now beyond any doubt, if for no other reason than the coverage of his death and its use by some as an impetus for change in technology policy. The only part of the article that is not properly balanced, in context, is an easy mistake to make: RSS 1.0 is a minor offshoot of RSS 0.92, and its discussion should avoid creating the implication that it's more significant than it was. The subject's involvement in the effort is interesting because of his youth, not because of its importance to the Internet. It is kind of petty to point that out now, because it's not a huge deal, but the press is overstating his involvement in creating technologies that people actually use. That is not a big problem, and is obviously much less important than someone's suicide and the public reaction to it, but it is potentially of concern for editors interested in detailed accuracy. (I have used a sock puppet account because everything associated with this subject is now too politically hot-button for me personally.) Benignsockpuppet (talk) 07:33, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
" RSS 1.0 is a minor offshoot of RSS 0.92,"
No. If you still think that, then you discard a few years of several SemWeb people's working life, including Aaron's, and a whole bunch of important fundamental research, not just a web syndication format. (Apart from being simply incorrect - 1.0 is a development of 0.90, not 0.92 and this matters. Read Dive Into Mark) Andy Dingley (talk) 12:08, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

There are some collated sources here. Additions welcome. – SJ + 14:55, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Carmen Ortiz#Request for Comment

There is an RFC in progress that editors of this article will likely want to participate in. --Intentionally Unsigned to avoid Bias 07:51, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Photo of Carmen Ortiz

Is there any reason to include the picture of Carmen Ortiz? Ryan Vesey 15:40, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

No, none at all, a link to her wiki bio is plenty WP:BLP considering the attacking, opinionated claims against her being the reason for him hanging himself to death - Youreallycan 21:06, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
The theory was that it would be fair to US Atty Ortiz to 'humanize' her by adding her pic to the article too, but I can see both sides and it's clearly nonessential. --HectorMoffet (talk) 20:36, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Heymann's prior prosecution which ended in suicide: Relevant?

I moved this from the Petitions sections for discussion:

Heymann is linked to the suicide of another young computer hacker whom he aggressively pursued.Andrew Good, a Boston attorney who had previously represented Swartz in the case, said he told federal prosecutors that Swartz was a suicide risk. Their response was "put him in jail, he'll be safe there," Good said.

I have concerns about the soundness of the "link" between Heymann and the first defendant who killed himsel; also the relevance of this case to Swartz' biography; and, last, providing sources besides Russia Today would help establish the worth of including this. Ok...

  • Wall Street Journal has this same quote from Good,
  • BuzzFeed, BuzinessInsider, CNET, Daily Mail, Salon, Boston Herald (local), and NYMag mention the first suicide , , , , ,

That's slightly more convincing but the quality of the mentions is still pretty slim for the strong suggestion about Heymann. Ocaasi 18:52, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

it feels a step too far away from biographical for here; we are way past the point where this needs an even article though. --Errant 18:57, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
It's not relevant. When somebody breaks the law and commits suicide to avoid the punishment, it's sad, but not the fault of the prosecutor. If the other person who committed suicide was somehow directly related to Swartz (not indirectly as it appears) it could be included, but it can't use Heymann as the link between the two. Ryan Vesey 19:00, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Decent source of quotes RE: public reaction

Some good quotes from various notable people here: RawStory:Debate intensifies over draconian cyber-crime laws after Aaron Swartz's death --Teststudent (talk) 19:57, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Twitter

Another question. Should his twitter account be removed? Wwwhatsup (talk) 10:04, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

No. There continues to be an extremely high number of references to @aaronsw on Twitter (more so than prior to his death), and maintaining that link is useful. jhawkinson (talk) 10:20, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

I think having a Twitter account listed is relevant. Why do people keep removing it? TiMike (talk) 21:33, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

  • The article is not over-flooded with links. I think the Twitter account information would make it flow better and be more complete. Acknowledged there are indirect policy recommendations in both directions, but taking both sides into account, I favor that its inclusion would create a better encyclopedia article. Lenny Kaufman 00:37, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
  • How would it flow better in a list of links? We don't have indirect policy recommendations in both directions, there's one policy which states that Twitter is inappropriate if it is featured prominently on the official site. It's featured at the top of the page. Ryan Vesey 00:49, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Ryan, If you feel very strongly about it, I will not press it. Just letting you know I agree with the majority opinion for what people believe would make a better article. Lenny Kaufman 10:35, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

HectorMoffet has got it right. This is an encyclopedia, not an exercise in how strict we can be in following one of our content guidelines. Jonathunder (talk) 09:51, 17 January 2013 (UTC)


  • Merged the two /* Twitter */ sections. There remains a lot of twitter traffic that references his twitter handle, making its presence on the article page particular useful. Honestly I'd argue that it belongs in the infobox, but that's probably best argued elsewhere and more generally. jhawkinson (talk) 14:30, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

I've removed the Demand Progress quote... my reasons

I decided to create a new talk-page section because the previous one is so cluttered with other issues. Here are my reasons for removing the Demand Progress quote as an NPOV violation:

1. Presented as it is without the proper context, readers are not presented with enough context to judge whether it is inaccurate or not.

2. It is highly inaccurate and misleading. Not only can a person not carry 4.9 million books out of a library, but Swartz's alleged actions would not constitute any sort of checkout procedure, but rather unpermitted access (again, allegedly). This statement thus may have a proper place on the new/impending page for the case itself, where hopefully the relevant workings of JSTOR at the time can be explored somewhat-- but not here, out of any possible context that can lead to understanding it. This is not Fox News (or a liberal/activist counterpart) but an encyclopedia.

3. It is not balanced by opposing commentary either. Including a few token statements by Carmen Ortiz etc. about whether the allegations, true or false, were overcharged or overprosecuted do not serve to balance misleading characterizations of the alleged acts themselves. If there's to be an analysis of just what he did via commentary, it can't be so one-sided. (Note that though Ortiz makes a general statement about misappropriating computer data being wrongful, she doesn't make any specific statement in her quote about what Swartz allegedly did. In addition Hayes' quote currently remains, completely inaccurate though it seems to be to call the documents "free".)

These are my thoughts. I think anyone who can't see that with the DP comment the JSTOR section is hopelessly pro-Swartz needs to recuse themselves at this stage. CarthCarsen (talk) 18:02, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Uhh..so this is what anybody can do to any wikipedia page, just come in and unilaterally delete things they feel are bad? Are you aware of how totally and hopelessly anti-Swartz you are? Are you on the payroll of the Department of Justice in Mass. working for Carmen Ortiz?JonErber (talk) 18:44, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I happen to agree with you that the quote is misleading, but removal of the quote is not the only manner of redress, and I would contend it is neither the best manner. Because the quote is so widely prevalent in reliable sources, and because this is an encyclopedia, the best manner is to include the reliably sourced quote, with attribution, immediately followed by its counter-intuitive nature, letting the reader decide its appropriate weight. For example we could state:

Demand Progress, a group Swartz co-founded, characterized the indictment as "trying to put someone in jail for allegedly checking too many books out of the library." The characterization however, does not reconcile its relationship to the lending limits imposed by libraries, nor the physical impossibility of one person to carry over 4 million books out of the library.

The block-quote above demonstrates the wiki-better-way of NPOV inclusion, IMO. --My76Strat (talk) 19:07, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
I tried to do something similar to your suggestion before. I just tried again, and Bonusballs of course reverted the edit. It seems that some simply will not allow these statements to be put in the proper context for understanding, which once more makes the section read like an "Aaron Swartz was railroad" sob story. (Maybe he was, but it's simply inappropriate to effectively endorse these misleading statements by presenting them without the proper context. They should be on the page for the case, or here if there's enough room, with the proper context.) CarthCarsen (talk) 17:28, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
Your edit was reverted - again - because it - again - violated WP:SYN and WP:OR (using quotes to advance a viewpoint not made by the source) and went against the clear concensus on this talk page that editing or removing notable, referenced quotes, is not NPOV. Just because you don't agree with what someone has said, doesn't mean you have a right to silence them. If you can't bear not to advance this "but websites are not libraries and books are not documents and you couldn't carry 4.9 million books and I don't know what a simile is" position, find a reliable source reporting an advancement of that position by someone notable. It's not up to individual editors to decide to draw these conclusions by themselves. Bonusballs (talk) 17:50, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
I've reverted your edit. You simply cannot mislead users in your attempt to exonerate Swartz in this way. Either leave out the legal pronouncement by a non-expert, or present enough information to render the comment non-misleading, as My76Strat has suggested and another user has endorsed. This page cannot be allowed to so obviously portray Swartz as innocent in this way. Either he was or he wasn't; this is best left for the page on the case itself, with information on how JSTOR actually works, and hopefully with bona fide legal commentary if the DP quote is presented there. Your suggestion that WP:SYN has been violated is laughable. CarthCarsen (talk) 18:39, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
You are repeatedly ignoring the stated concensus on this talk page that the quotes are valid and should stand. You disagree - and that's a shame. But please do not ignore the concensus. I have again restored the material which you have attempted to remove. The violation of WP:SYN is very clear and indeed was made by others before me. Please now respect the concensus on this talk page - if you have a further disagreement with that, discuss it on this page before removing any more quotes, or adding any further non-neutral commentaries. Bonusballs (talk) 18:44, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
Stating that your position is consensus is simply inaccurate. Perhaps you should read up on what consensus involves. "Consensus on Misplaced Pages does not mean unanimity (which, although an ideal result, is not always achievable); nor is it the result of a vote. Decision-making involves an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Misplaced Pages's norms." By refusing to allow the inclusion of context enough to present the information in a non-misleading way, as suggested among others by My76Strat; by ignoring serious concerns of many users here about the quote as presented, and refusing to consider any middle-ground solution; and by your petulant edit-warring, you have done anything but achieve consensus. You simply want to get your way, and to do your best to exonerate and saint the subject of this article. Recuse yourself. CarthCarsen (talk) 18:52, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
My position is the same as the multiple other editors who have expressed the same or similar opinion on this page. That's what "consensus" means. The points you have made were listened to, and as I said earlier, if you can find a proper quote from a notable individual connected with this case, making the point which you seem so desperate to make, reported by a reliable source, then by all means include it. But please do not include your own opinionated commentaries, or remove or edit the quotes of others to match the angle which you are coming from. Misplaced Pages's norms have rules against that too. The fact that someone has said something which you personally do not agree with does not automatically mean that it is misleading. It means that you disagree. And although that's a shame, Misplaced Pages articles have rather more serious business to attend to. Please, please respect the consensus and channel your energies towards making positive contributions to the encyclopaedia, rather than just constantly attacking anyone who holds a contrary viewpoint and demanding that they recuse themselves for you. That is not how it works. And before attacking me on the administrator's noticeboard, please note that the disputed material was not even mine to begin with. All I have done (as have several others) is attempted to prevent you from removing it without consensus. Bonusballs (talk) 18:58, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
My position is also the same as that of multiple other editors, who began by observing that the removal was warranted and have continued through to the present, noting that the inclusion of the quote is biased. You have not achieved consensus by starting an edit war. You do not decide whether concerns have been addressed-- and in particular you of all the posters here seem the least likely to ever compromise. My76Strat suggested a fine edit, but you couldn't have it; the only thing you will accept is presenting misleading information in an out-of-context way in order to sway readers to your point of view. Read the many other comments here expressing concern over the biased info, and stop bleating that you've achieved consensus when you have not-- and stop edit-warring. Recuse yourself if you cannot be neutral. CarthCarsen (talk) 19:04, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
Your position is not supported by the majority. Not all the points you make are entirely wrong but on this particular issue, if you don't mind me saying, you seem to have a bit of a blind spot. You're also unlikely to attract much support for your cause while you repeatedly attack editors who disagree with your point, and I notice that you are again demanding for people to recuse themselves seemingly for no other reason than not holding your, somewhat less than neutral, position. As I said, that is not how it works. I can and will support any edit you make that does not involve removing referenced quotes, amending referenced quotes, or inserting your own commentaries and synthesis into an article. That is not appropriate for Misplaced Pages articles and is most assuredly not the Neutral Point Of View that you claim to be upholding. I have no interest in swaying readers to any point of view, but I do have interest when a single-issue editor like yourself consistently and repeatedly tries to grind an axe by distorting articles to match their viewpoint. Yes, that gets my attention, and when I see such behaviour, then I, like any other Misplaced Pages editor, will obviously seek to challenge it, discuss it, and ultimately reach a concensus that everyone is happy with. If everyone cannot be happy, then the majority needs to be happy. I think I've been more than helpful and have bent over backwards to illustrate appropriate ways in which you could make your point, if you are really determined to. All you have done is just repeatedly remove the content you don't like, regardless, and make personal attacks against any editor who challenges you. I'm sorry you feel that way. Bonusballs (talk) 19:10, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
There you go again, confusing consensus with a simple majority. You are blinded by your bias-- recuse yourself. CarthCarsen (talk) 20:47, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
Have to agree. For a single editor to be removing, and even EDITING referenced quotes is absolutely not acceptable and not how a legitimate NPOV concern should be addressed. Bonusballs (talk) 19:17, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
One can remove part of a quote if the meaning is preserved, or even change whole words and sections! Who knew! The only part removed from Hayes' quote was the assertion that he was not exaggerating. CarthCarsen (talk) 17:28, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
That said, it starts to get silly once you start inserting nit-picking editorial commentary over a perfectly simple to understand smilie. e.g. "Mr X said that his wife was 'as fat as an elephant', however this ignores the fact that elephants walk on four legs, not two, and their ears are much larger than those of humans." - You do have to draw the line somewhere and recognise that most readers are intelligent enough to draw their own conclusion and do not need to be protected from it by over-zealous single-issue editors. Bonusballs (talk) 19:55, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
No Jon, they can't - and editors who disagree get to fix things. Pretty much as 76Strat put it just above.
NPOV does not mean:
  • Stripping quotes an editor disagrees with
  • Editing quotes, especially not in a partisan manner (WTF?!)
  • Claiming that "balance" is achieved by having one line from each side and counting the words that each gets to use. If the vocal world out there is shouting "Swartz was innocent", then there will, and ought to be, a long series of quotes and opinions on such a basis. We report them.
  • Maybe the world is shouting "Imprison the Pirate" instead? So far I'm seeing Carmen Ortiz and Westboro Baptist Church. If CarthCarsen knows of others, then they should probably be here too.
Andy Dingley (talk) 19:29, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
1. We report the charges, we report the prosecutor's statements on the charges, we report a third party's opinion that the charges were justified.
2. 'THEN we give the other side of the debate on charge validity in the form of two sentences-- an MSNBC host and Swartz's own organization.
3. Both perspectives are necessary for us to call this a NPOV article.
Disagreeing with the opinions expressed ("misleading") does not mean those opinions cease to exist or cease to be notable. They just mean your opinion differs from one of many notable opinions included in this article. Join the club. --HectorMoffet (talk) 20:07, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
I agree that the quote belongs, and I suggest that repeatedly removing it will not prove to be an effective editing strategy. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:56, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
User Bonusballs cannot compromise by allowing enough information to put the one-sided quote in context. Until such time as that's done, such as in the excellent suggestion by My76Strat, Misplaced Pages cannot seem to endorse the skewed view of the unqualified quote-- which is of course the intention of Bonusballs et al. Save it for the page on the case (with enough info on JSTOR to render it non-misleading), or allow enough context here to fix the problem; but a solution is not to allow legal opinions from biased non-experts in an effort to exonerate Aaron Swartz. Bias is showing terribly in this edit war. CarthCarsen (talk) 18:35, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
CarthCarsen, removal of well-sourced quote does not improve the article. Your justifition is confusing-- no quote is itself NPOV-- rather, WP:NPOV is a property of our articles, not the opinions featured in the article. --HectorMoffet (talk) 20:06, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
The fact that a quote is well-sourced does not mean it improves the article. The point is that by presenting inaccurate, extremely biased quotes by Swartz's supporters out of context, readers will be misled. Similarly, we wouldn't let the Second Amendment article be full of statements by gun owners that the Second Amendment guarantees a right of armed revolt. Sure, some people hold that viewpoint, but not only is it false, but by presenting it without the proper factual setting, some readers might believe it-- and believe that Misplaced Pages endorsed. Such are the (multiple users') concerns about the Hayes and Demand Progress quotes. CarthCarsen (talk) 20:46, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I find the quote useful as illustrating the subject's view. I also observe that we're edit-warring (the characterization of CarthCarsen, who is very close to the 3RR rule) an article that is very nearly BLP. Readers of the encyclopedia will want to read the position of the subject and his organization; the opinions of others need not be reflected here or given equal weight. There is no NPOV issue here: the quote indicates what the subject and his organization maintained.

Given the emotions surrounding the subject, I strongly recommend that detractors back off on this for a time. De mortuis nil nisi bonum. If that proves impossible, I'd recommend that an admin take appropriate action. MarkBernstein (talk) 21:09, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Please read this edit and the couple of fixes right afterward. I've tried to isolate the part that might be considered POV, rearranged things, changed a heading, added a heading and misspelled "hagiography", all by adding fewer that 50 characters. I acknowledge I've been WP:BOLD. As the edit summary says, revert if you think I've done damage. But please consider if this helps put us back on the road to civil collaboration. Please also read this. I've tried to calm the waters. When the 31 hours expire, please try to do so, as well. David in DC (talk) 15:17, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Death and Aftermath

The sections titled 'Death and aftermath' and 'Public debate and response' are a bit of a mess. Currently 'Death and aftermath' contains similar content as 'public debate and response'. In my view there should be a clearer distinction between the two. Details of his death, the funeral and the family's response to his death (and any eulogies at the funeral) belong in one section. Everything else belongs in the 'public response' section. The sub-heading 'Family response and criticism' could then be removed. JaggerAgain (talk) 18:37, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree, be bold with your assertion, and improve the discrepancy. --My76Strat (talk) 19:18, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Ditto, good suggestion. I'm happy to make that change if you'd prefer. Ocaasi 19:51, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Time he was found dead

This article says he was found dead in the morning. He wasn't -- he was found dead in the evening. I don't see any sources that say morning. To my knowledge, time of death is unknown. This source indicates that he wasn't known to be dead during the workday: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324581504578238692048200404.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.52.182 (talk) 12:50, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

This source says morning. And another. --My76Strat (talk) 13:05, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
The first source you link to says the suicide was in the morning, not that he was found in the morning. More importantly, I was the one who found him, and I found him in the evening. Compare my IP address to SJ's verified comment from me above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.52.182 (talk) 21:53, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
Huh, oops, my IP address is not showing up the same. Not sure why (most likely because I don't understand IP addresses). Anyway, SJ can confirm on this one too if required. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.52.182 (talk) 21:55, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Suicide, apparent suicide...

There's some back and forth about when to mention suicide and if to qualify it by 'apparent'. The vast majority of sources I have read call this a suicide, although the early reports used the term 'apparent suicide'. Should we call it a suicide? Should we qualify it with 'apparent'? Ocaasi 17:20, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Don't qualify it with apparent. As you said, the vast majority of sources call this a suicide. Qualifying it lends credibility to conspiracy theories. Ryan Vesey 17:29, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Misleading, potentially un-NPOV concern in top summary, re: "charges were dropped"

"Following his death, federal judge Nathaniel M. Gorton dismissed the charges against him."--while technically true, this is because he was dead, not because the investigation had otherwise changed. As the linked sources state, this was a routine judicial protocol for when someone passes who has been charged with a crime.

Swartz is a political football right now, but if WP is to stay out of it, the opener shouldn't have a line like this. Let's face it; it reads like "they drove him to kill himself, and then only afterwards realized they didn't have a case, so they dropped it." People will read that into it, because people assume that WP writers know better to put basically irrelevant information about judicial protocol in a summary paragraph. As such, we're obviously lacking NPOV.

Since the line doesn't actually provide any real, meaningful information (people are not here to learn about how US courts work), I've taken the liberty of removing it. 174.109.183.92 (talk) 20:16, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. Skewing facts is not the right way to present a dead person's legacy. CarthCarsen (talk) 20:43, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

United States v. Aaron Swartz

Restoring the article on United States v. Aaron Swartz would probably solve any neutrality problems with this current biography and allow that subject to grow appropriately. Viriditas (talk) 01:42, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

I proposed this above, but those who commented all said they didn't like the idea of trimming anything from this article yet. —mjb (talk) 12:34, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
I support your proposal as it is the quickest way to resolving the neutrality issue as they all pertain to that case and its ramifications. There's no reason to redirect such a notable case to this biography and I'm surprised at this outcome. The case stands on its own. Viriditas (talk) 21:02, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Featured in "recent deaths" on front page of Misplaced Pages today

Thanks to whoever did that. For Wikipedians, his passing is definitely notable, and as a Wikipedian who did not know him personally, I was very sad to hear that he was gone. Jane (talk) 09:05, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

  1. Peterson, Josh. "Reddit co-founder Aaron Swartz commits suicide at age 26". The Daily Caller. Retrieved 2013-01-14.
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