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WHY SHOULD WE USE THE VULGAR PRONUNCIATION- WHEN THE PROUD TONE EXISTS

The evolution of the name "Ezhavar" was from the word from the place "EEzham". And they were called in the past as " Ezhavar". But it was by the British, " the Malayalam Illiterate People" who were incapable for normal pronunciation that word, started telling it as "Ezhava" instead of "Ezhavar". But it is a vulgar pronunciation of that word, and it is not the responsibility of Ezhavar to vulgarity of their pronunciation. We can see that, we are not calling the cast "Nayar" as " Naya OR Nayas", and we don't call the cast "Pattar" as "Patta OR Pattas ". Means the word "Ezhavar" also should be pronounced in the same manner as "EZHAVAR"instead of pronouncing "Ezhava". If the Government documents are the inspiring support to tell the word like that, what we should do is to change first the Government Usage - what was created by the Malayalam illiterate British, and blindly following monkeys .And now a days we can see that, So many families started using their name as word " Ezhavar" with their name.And so many started naming their new born babies also as the same using the word "Ezhavar". Like.... Sajeesh Ezhavar, Unnikrishnan Ezhavar, ramnarain Ezhavar..etc. In Malayalam, there you can find out a meaning for the word of " Ezhavar". But You can not explain the meaning of the word " Ezhava" / "Ezhavas" using the Malayalam Language.

/* Social and religious divergence */

Unlike other places in India the Caste system in Kerala was very complex and rigid. It is mainly divided in to two groups, the caste hindus or Savarna(Nambudiri and Nair) and Avarna. The higher caste hindus (Nambudiri and Nair) and Syrian Christians treated Ezhavas as untouchables.. A Nair had the right to behead polluting lower castes including Ezhavas immediately..

It will be great if you can read the first reference and page 12 to 14 of the second reference. And I think the matter is very relevant in the context. Dakshinsamudram (talk) 02:19, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

THIYYAR / THIYYA Thiyyar / Thiyya not a subcaste under Ezhava. it has its own identity and it is a caste itself not a subcaste. The culture, tradition even physical appearance, skin colour completely different from Ezhavas. They are Other Backward Communities thats all one thing common among them. Please delete Theyyam, Izhathu mannanar, and also delete the part which referring people from Malabar, they are thiyyas not Ezhavas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.18.3 (talk) 02:07, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 10 February 2013

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Tiyyas, Thiyyas and Theeyas in Malabar have to be removed from the article. the said community is a unique and different community and have very little connection with ezhavas. article have to remove all the references regarding the thiyya community. 122.174.195.192 (talk) 18:46, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Not done.Please provide a reliable source.--2.219.218.79 (talk) 20:01, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

PLEASE REMOVE ALL REFERENCES ABOUT THIYYA, THIYYAR, THIYA FROM THIS ARTICLE.

This article written for misleading readers, please understand that thiyya is not a sub caste of any caste. Its independent cast and they have their own culture, tradition and history. Its just like Nair, Menon, Nambiar, Ezhava etc. If you look nair wikipedia article, they mention about menon caste that doesnt mean menon is sub caste of Nair, You can mention about thiyya in your article but dont mislead people by making thiyya as subcaste This article deceiving readers, written for political gain or something, please remove all above said references immediately.

Izhathu_Mannanars

Izhathu_Mannanars is a Thiyya Dynasty and you have mentioned in your article that he belongs to Ezhava which is wrong, please correct it.

Please Edit this article ASAP

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Thiyya, Thiyyar, Tiya, Thiyya are a different caste in Malabar area of Kerala and the only link with Ezhava is they both belong to Other Backward Communities in Kerala. Please do not mention that Thiyya is a sub caste of Ezhava in the Article, None of your citation links say that Thiyya is a subcaste of Ezhava therefore you need to either remove all the references about Thiyya, Thiyyar, Tiya or Thiya from this article or describe Thiyya caste in detail in the article. Ezhathu Mannanars was not Ezhava Dynasti, Misplaced Pages has got a page for Ezhathu Mannanars and it has got valid reference which says Ezhathu Mannanars a Thiyya Dynasty. Please do not ignore this edit request.Irajeevwiki (talk) 04:08, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

 Not done Please give a reliable source to back up your claim. - Camyoung54 talk 14:53, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

None of your citation reference links showing that Ezhava and Thiyya are same.. They are two different castes thats is why they got two different caste names. You cannot change the history by deceiving wikipedia administrators. Misplaced Pages articles should be written in a neutral point of view not for political gain or anything like that. Look up the talk history page and many people from around the world requesting to amend the article and the author is just reluctant to do that.Irajeevwiki (talk) 05:54, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Ref 1, Nossiter p 30, says "The major low caste is the Ezhavas (Iravas, Ilhavas), known as Chokons (Chogons) in central Travancore and as Tiyyas (Thiyas, Theeyas), who claim a higher ritual ranking, in Malabar". -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:52, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Please look this link from Specifically referring Thiyya and Ezhava seperately, from the book we can understand Thiyya caste is distinctive , many books referring thiyya and ezhava same, the reason is they belong to Other Backward Communities in india and people from both castes were doing same jobs in the past like toddy tapping etc and also they both very active in martial arts but those books never say that Thiyya and Ezhava same castes. Thiyya people in malabar look very different from Ezhava people and their worship is completely different from Ezhava, Thiyya people go to Kavu where as Ezhava people more engaged in snake worshipping etc. Misplaced Pages should explain both castes separately. There are many books printed in the past explaining differences between Thiyya and Ezhava. Please understand and edit thoughtfully and remove those lines which explains Thiyya is a subcaste of Ezhava. Snapshot on right from book

Irajeevwiki (talk) 09:17, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

You really should not upload a scan of a copyrighted book. As far as your contention goes, it is one that has been repeated time and again here. Original research has always been required to make the leap from what a source says (on the rare occasion that one was provided) and what the person citing it claims. You appear to be falling into the same trap, although I'll try to find Kurup online and see if there is anything more to it. I have seen stuff about a campaign outside Misplaced Pages for Thiyya to be considered as a completely separate community from the Ezhava: that is the way of castes, which come and go depending on the whims of fission and division, politics, economics etc. In a sense, castes seem to be made up and disposed of "on the hoof", although I realise that this trivialises the significance for those who are intimately involved.

Until independent reliable academic sources recognise the complete distinction between Ezhava and Thiyya, we have a problem here. Please also note that in the event that such sources are found, we would show both sets of opinions. That is, that some academics consider them to be Ezhava and others consider them to be distinct. - Sitush (talk) 17:36, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Edgar Thurstons book clearly mentions the difference between Ezhava and Thiyya .. ( vineeth ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.96.226.13 (talk) 03:57, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Edgar Thurston would likely not have recognised an Ezhava/Thiyya if he met one. He is a hopelessly unreliable source for this sort of stuff. - Sitush (talk) 13:56, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

@Sitush .. Edgar Thurston was a well recognized gentleman who served as superintendent at Madras Government Muesuem . He has enough experience in India to write about caste and tribes . And do you think you have any credibility to disapprove of him . what is your qualification to question him . "He was assisted in the writing of Castes and Tribes by a colleague from the museum, K. Rangachari, who had also assisted him in a 1906 ethnographic study, Ethnographic Notes in Southern India. Rangachari had supplied most of the forty photographs used in this earlier study. The September 1910 edition of Nature described the work as a monumental record of the varied phases of south Indian tribal life, the traditions, manners and customs of people. Though in some respects it may be corrected or supplemented by future research it will long retain its value as an example of out-door investigation, and will remain a veritable mine of information, which will be of value Thurston was awarded the Kaisar-i-Hind, first class, on 26 June 1902." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.229.241.171 (talk) 07:55, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

the writer never said that Thiyya is a sub caste of ezhava in the book. Thiyya is a separate caste from Malabar and ezhava is from travancore. On the same page. :Ref 1, Nossiter p 30, second para explains about the differences of both castes. Majority of the Ezhavas were agricultural labours whereas thiyyar were toddy tappers. Irajeevwiki (talk) 19:24, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea why so many people (or perhaps one person using umpteen identities) have so much trouble reading sources for this Ezhava/Thiyya stuff. Re-read Nossiter again, please. He says - from the very bit that you mention - "The major low caste is the Ezhava (Iravas, Ilhavas), known as Chokons (Chogons) in central Travancore and as Tiyyas (Thiyas, Theeyas), who claim a higher ritual ranking, in Malabar." Later, on the same page, he says "Marriage customs have varied considerably among the Ezhavas. In northern Malabar, the Tiyyas were matrilineal (but patrilocal) ..." and so on. Nossiter is clearly treating these two groups as being the same, although acknowledging that they have regional differences.

Doubtless, it is the regional differences and the possible socio-economic gains to be made that are driving the present-day Thiyya desire to be seen as entirely distinct but until reliable sources say this, there is nothing we can do to change it here. What we need is some decent, neutral stuff discussing any present claims to the difference. ... and I do not mean agitative Thiyya-based sources as I am pretty sure this campaign both on- and off-Misplaced Pages is driven by some ulterior motive. Find someone like Christophe Jaffrelot who specialises in the politics of caste and is an active academic with no axe to grind. - Sitush (talk) 20:22, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry ,I repeat my question. . Which reference link says Thiyya is a sub caste of Ezhava. Irajeevwiki (talk) 08:41, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

None that I can see. But neither does the article. - Sitush (talk) 16:56, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

You have removed my comment telling that I am making personal attack. By your act, this is a community attack. You are attacking an entire community. Its clearly evident that we are separate from ezhavas. ezhavas were once untouchable in our area. I guess you are weak in History. Pnranjith (talk) 18:37, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry Sitush Please do not remove any comments left by other wikipedians as we need all the comments posted here to resolve this issue. Dont take it personally. We are just having a discussion here on whether you need to take all Thiyya references off from your article or not. Irajeevwiki (talk) 01:58, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Provide some reliable sources and we'll deal with it. So far, in a dispute that has gone on for many months across numerous venues, no-one has done so. Neither I nor anyone else here can just take your word for it, and the situation is not helped when people such as Irajeewiki make significant misreadings of what actually is said in this article. If you are still unhappy then you should try dispute resolution. - Sitush (talk) 19:22, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

You have taken whole sub caste section off from the article which is good. You are actually manipulating fact here by claiming some word references from books. Ezhavas always wanted to merge with thiyaas, that's just for political gain. Since Thiyya and ezhava got completely different culture and history, we can't merge them here on the wiki. Also Thiyya caste needs to be explained more in wiki, about culture, worship, wedding etc. better you please write only about Ezhavas. Your article nicely explains ezhava caste . But If somebody wants to know more about Thiyya, there nothing here in wiki. Irajeevwiki (talk) 19:51, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Did you read where Sitush said "Provide some reliable sources and we'll deal with it"? Please try to understand that we cannot change the article just on your say-so - you must provide reliable sources (click on that link to learn about what they are) which support what you are saying. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:55, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

The subcaste section that I removed yesterday was not added by me in the first place (I do not add unsourced info, ever) and is unrelated to the primary focus of this dispute, which is an ongoing campaign by members of the Thiyya community to be recognised as a completely distinct entity from Ezhava. That campsign is taking place on- and off-wiki. I suggest you go win that battle in the "real world" and then we can reflect it here. Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox for your campaign. - Sitush (talk) 20:41, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Zebedee|Boing! I think you have not noticed the valid reference link and a snapshot of the page i have included in my previous message here. Please see above, it explains castes are different. Sitush, Please do not personally attack somebody, which is against wikipedia rules. We are trying for a public consensus here by discussion. I am not using wikipedia as a soapbox. If you want more reference links i can produce in couple of days. I have read many books published in the past which explains the difeence between these two castes. Irajeevwiki (talk) 21:18, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Don't bother if all those books show is that there were variations in ritual/culture etc. To succeed with the point of your original edit request here, you need a source that explicitly says that they are a different caste. Nothing else will do. The article already points out that there were variances and, yes, we could expand on those with reliable sources (not Thurston etc) but it will not advance your cause of having a separate article for Thiyya. - Sitush (talk) 22:00, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Ok, now let us know who you make out an ezhava is different from a paniyan? Both looks alike. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pnranjith (talk • contribs) 07:28, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

And, the pair of you, this and this need to stop as well. You are doing yourself no favours. I'm going to drop you a note about the sanctions in place for stuff such as this. - Sitush (talk) 22:07, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Thiyya legal action against state govt

Ezhava#Dispute_between_Thiyya_and_Ezhava refers to a threat by a Thiyya organisation to mount a legal challenge against the state government. The source is very poorly worded but, if I'e read it correctly, it was indeed just a threat. Since that report is from January 2012, I'd expect that there would be an update by now, even allowing for the legendary slowness of the judicial process in India. However, the section was only added a few days ago and if that source is the best that we can do then I think we might be in WP:CRYSTAL territory because there is a distinct possibility that posturing was going on. - Sitush (talk) 22:22, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Not that i know of. Give more details. Please do not try to publish something here by deceiving wikipedia admins. We have a public consensus here, wait for more people see this discussion and let them say their opinions. Why do you want to come to a conclusion. This debate is on and we have just to wait.Irajeevwiki (talk) 22:47, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Irajeevwiki, your comment makes little sense, and doesn't at all address the concerns Sitush has raised. Just because some group somewhere made a legal claim, that does not mean that we report it in Misplaced Pages. If the claim was never filed, or was filed and dismissed, then it simply isn't important enough to include per WP:UNDUE. Please note also that Misplaced Pages admins don't make any decisions on article content; all editors are "equal" with regards to content, though that equality extends only so far as editors follow policies and guidelines. It seems that this info should probably removed until such time as we can find evidence in reliable sources that verify that this challenge was actually filed and is proceeding. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:02, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

i am not involved in any political organisation or party. I got nothing to do with it. I have leaned indian history and i have my say on this subject with genuine source references. I am not even indian citizen to gain something by working in politics. I can show government issued documents which clearly shows caste differences. Only Sitush says here these castes are same, by manipulating word references from books. Irajeevwiki (talk) 23:09, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Irajeevwiki, nobody said you were. And you're still not addressing the issue, which I'm guessing is because your English competence is a little low. The question addressed in this section is whether or not the supposed legal challenge info should be included in this article. Myself and Sitush believe it is not, and we also believe that this is supported by Wikipdia policy. You have not addressed this issue at all. This section is not for discussing the broader issue of whether or not these are one or two castes. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:13, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry User:Qwyrxian, you dont know the whole story., Sitush giving me a warning on my talk page go and have a look . He just giving me a threat i think. so, nothing to do with my English competency or ability to comprehend by reading english comments Below given link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Irajeevwiki#Sanctions — Preceding unsigned comment added by Irajeevwiki (talk • contribs) 23:23, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

The warning is completely legitimate, and, again, has nothing to do with this section. Sitush is warning you that this article, and all caste articles, are under sanctions, and that anything other than very high quality behavior can result in topic bans and/or blocks. As long as you abide by Misplaced Pages policies, you have nothing to worry about. Now, could we please go back to the original question? Is there any justification for including information about this alleged legal challenge? Qwyrxian (talk) 23:49, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Irajeevwiki, I am asking for more information. I've done my best to reflect what I think the existing source says but I have some doubts regarding whether the content merits inclusion per our policies. I am more than happy to see a section in this article about the dispute and any resolution of it but we do not report every little detail about every little thing. In particular, with regard to caste articles, we have to be aware of the posturing that indubitably does go on. M. N. Srinivas even came up with a name for a broad swathe of this - Sanskritisation - although I'm not sure that it applies in this particular instance. Castes come and go by a process of both fission and fusion, as has been well documented by numerous anthropologists, but here at Misplaced Pages we have to work off our own policies. Until something concrete happens that is accepted by reliable sources, we have a potential problem. Please note that I have not removed the section but have raised a query here. We work on consensus and I am trying to develop the article based on that. Please also note that consensus is not a vote - read the link that I have just provided. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 23:56, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Qwyrxian I will be uploading some documents to back up my claims. Also will give reference links, give me couple of days please. Irajeevwiki (talk) 01:49, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Please do not upload copyrighted documents to Misplaced Pages, as such files will generally be rapidly deleted for legal reasons. Instead, it's actually more efficient to first give the full publication info (i.e., the author, title, publisher, and page number) and a short quote. If we really need it, we can ask you for copies later (and probably do it by email or something similar so it's off WP). This can be faster because a very large number of "sources" that people often site on caste-related articles don't actually meet WP:RS (which, of course, you'll want to read if you haven't done so yet). While there's a lot of subtlety, your goal should be to get relatively recent texts by experts in their field published by academic publishers, along with some newspaper articles; what you want to avoid are texts over about 50-70 years old (especially ignoring any ancient religious texts), documents from random websites, or primary sources like court filings. Looking forward to seeing the documents you can provide. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:21, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Why someone is removing my comments without discussing? This is a talk page. Right?Pnranjith (talk) 06:08, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

No one has removed any of your comments. Look at the talk page's history, and you'll see that there hasn't been any deletion or removal. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:10, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, I removed a personal attack but that was not a comment about the article. See the very first few lines at the top of this page, contained in a coloured box. - Sitush (talk) 07:07, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi I am pasting a relevant piece of information from Edagr Thurston Book Caste and Tribes of Southern India TIYAN-39

Vineeth (vineethsat@gmail.com) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.96.226.13 (talk) 06:11, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

I've collapsed the Thurston quotation. Firstly, it has nothing to do with the legal action being discussed in this section. Secondly, as I've only recently said on this page, Thurston is not a reliable source, as per numerous discussions across numerous venues on Misplaced Pages over at least the last couple of years. - Sitush (talk) 06:59, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

I do not understand how you decide what is reliable source. Edger Thurston is a famous British writer who wrote many famous books about Indian history. What is a criteria of selecting a valid source. Is this only one which a particular wiki admin decides? 198.175.68.37 (talk) 07:23, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

This is the reason why I posted the blog link in my talk page. If an ISBN referenced book which is published decades back is not taken into consideration, what about the genetic studies conducted by Dr. Shyamalan, A very famous physician in the US? Pnranjith (talk) 07:26, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

IP, this has been explained to you here and at User talk:Irajeevwiki, and not just by me. Put simply, Raj sources are almost never acceptable here for statements of fact and, indeed, you'll struggle to find decent modern academic sources that cite them (the "states series" of The People of India is not a "decent modern academic source" but rather 90% plagiarism). Take a read of Herbert Hope Risley, James Tod and, yes, Edgar Thurston for some background on why these people are so obviously not reliable.

Shyalaman has also been brought up in previous discussions about this subject. He commissioned a private study of his own genetic structure that somehow proved he came from Kyrgystan. Or something along those lines - I forget the detail. He was deemed to be a complete aberration on this issue and - yet again- none of this is relevant to the purpose of this section. You've been advised by several experienced contributors regarding what is required. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 07:31, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

What about the book published by T Damu, A famous writer from North Kerala? Is he also wrong in his studies?Pnranjith (talk) 10:48, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Does Damu write about the legal action? - Sitush (talk) 20:00, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Dubious source

As we have a few eyes on this article at the moment, I would welcome comments on the following statements that have been tagged as dubiously sourced since June 2011:

In 1896, a petition with more than 13,000 signatories was submitted to the government asking for the recognition of the right of the Ezhavas to enter government service; the upper caste Hindus of the state prevailed upon the Maharajah not to concede the request. The outcome not looking to be promising, the Ezhava leadership threatened that they would convert from Hinduism en masse, rather than stay as helots of Hindu society. Diwan, Sir C. P. Ramaswamy Iyer, realizing the imminent danger, prompted the Maharajah to issue the Temple Entry Proclamation, which abolished the ban on lower-caste people from entering Hindu temples in the state of Travancore.

Whether reliable or not, the source is difficult to track down because of the incompleteness of the citation. I suspect that the statements might be broadly accurate but surely we can improve on the sourcing? And, if not, then it probably needs to be removed. - Sitush (talk) 01:10, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Edgar Thurston is not reliable? Why

Hi sitush, you said Edgar Thurston was not reliable, would you please explain why. You have got a list of writers and you only agree references from those books sounds bit childish ! Doesnt it ? Edgar Thurston CIE was a superintendent at the Madras Government Museum who contributed to studies in the zoology, ethnology and botany of India and published works related to his work at the museum If you say that he is not reliable then who would you trust ?. Irajeevwiki (talk) 10:44, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Dear Sitush, as you said before the documents which we submit are not a reliable source; i would like to understand from you; which reliable source you had drawn the conclusion that both Ezhava and Thiyya are same? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keepwalkingji (talk • contribs) 11:01, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Also the given reference link in the article to backup your claim that Thiyya and Ezhava same is "Nossiter, Thomas Johnson (1982). "Kerala's identity: unity and diversity". Communism in Kerala: a study in political adaptation. . ISBN 978-0-520-04667-2" Which published in 1982. I would say it was written for political gain. You cant actually use that as a valid reference here in wikipedia. Irajeevwiki (talk) 11:12, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

That is a valid point Irajeevwiki, I have never thought in that line. Was that really published in 1982.!!! Pnranjith (talk) 11:28, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Thurston, like basically all of the other British colonialists, are not reliable sources for most information on Misplaced Pages. This is not something Sitush decided, but rather that has been decided at numerous discussions in the past. The reasons are fairly simple. First, Thurston (et al) were not trained anthropologists/sociologists/whatever. Second, they didn't actually conduct very good research; mostly, they just asked the people who happened to be friendly to the local British occupation forces. Not too surprisingly, what they heard tended to boost up the image of those particular people and show other groups negatively. They didn't do any work to try to get independent verification, and thus their work does not meet the standards of modern historical research. Third, the results that they drew tended to "confirm" British racial theories (I forget the term, I'm sure Sitush can remind us), which often tended to be closely related to skin color, stature, etc., perceived similarity to European-ness. The work was clearly not a neutral inquiry. Fourth, and most importantly, Thurston (et al) are not cited by serious modern historians. Oh, sure, the groups that Thurston praised have their own "historians" who then cite him, but neutral, high quality researchers generally do not, unless their researching British attitudes. In other words, Thurston is reliable if what we want to know is how British colonialists thought about some of the people of India, but he's not reliable in establishing what was actually true about people of India. This is not actually different than many other colonialists in other parts of the world--no serious scholar would take the words of white "historians" writing about Native Americans in the 17th through 19th centuries as literally true, either. I imagine Sitush has links to previous discussions on Thurston, but I can assure you that this has been discussed before. Qwyrxian (talk) 11:57, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Same is the case with Thomas Nossiter whose book you refers to say both ezhava and Thiyya are same. Or at-least tell us how did you make into a conclusion that both are same? Nossiter is also a British. If you cant trust Thurston, who lived here in Malabar for more than 30 years, how do you trust another British who was here only for few months? What study he might have conducted to derive the conclusion that both caste are same? Nossiter is basically an economist and he was studying about communism in Kerala in recent years not about castes and tribes of Kerala.Pnranjith (talk) 16:49, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Scientific racism is the term that Qwyrxian could not remember. Pmramjith, not for the first time, you have misread what has been said. The problem is not that Thurston was British but that he was one of the British colonial administrators and not an academic - the rest as per Qwyrxian's explanation. Nossiter was a notable academic, was subject to much more scrutiny and modern peer review, is widely cited today, used modern methods of analysis, and so on. And, by the way, you have also misread the Nossiter article: he was not an economist. Honestly, the number of misunderstandings going on here is quite remarkable and I'm beginning to wonder whether you might find it more congenial to contribute to one of the version of Misplaced Pages that exist in other languages. - Sitush (talk) 17:32, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Could you please explain Sitush why did you cite his books in this article, citation no. 3 is from Edgar and Thurstons book (11 March 2013) if his books are not reliable then please take it off from the article please.
' Nossiter completed his higher education at the University of Oxford, as an undergraduate at Exeter College and a graduate at Nuffield. He took the degrees of Bachelor of Arts, Master of Arts, and Doctor of Philosophy. His thesis, completed under the auspices of the Faculty of Modern History and submitted in 1968, was entitled, Elections and political behaviour in County Durham and Newcastle, 1832-74.
For the rest of his life Nossiter studied and lectured in political sociology.
In 1999 he was elected a Councillor on Leeds City Council for the Liberal Democrats, although he resigned after only six months in office.

This is what Misplaced Pages says about Nossiter. He is a politician and a political writer. It is not clear which political party he biased towards, but one thing is clear he is a politician and writer. I wouldn't cite his books here. He might have written this books for popliteal gain. Irajeevwiki (talk) 19:49, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

You have misread it, or did not see the "sociology" part. Or the history background. Or his reputation in India. He was a local councillor for 6 months for a British political party, which has no bearing at all on India and at the time was really not a party with much influence even in the UK. Honestly, this is clutching at straws. As for the Thurston cite (which is , not ), well, I didn't add it and, yes, it is unnecessary. I am finding it odd that only hours after you said this article did a good job of depicting the Ezhavas, you are now trying to tear holes in it. I, on the other hand, am well aware of its weaknesses and always have been. If I didn't spend so long dealing with interminable discussions such as this then I might have more time to actually improve content that is viable. - Sitush (talk) 19:58, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

I have replaced the Thurston citation referred to above. - Sitush (talk) 00:03, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Just wanted to make sure everyone is on same page. we are discussing here for a consensus to remove all Thiyya references from this article and Sitush is still not convinced that both castes are separate castes. He doesn't trust Edgar and Thurston books because it is dodgy in his words. But he reckons Nositter is trustworthy.

I have done a research on Nositter, He is biased towards Communist (Marxism) and communism is not limited to a small area or country. Since Kerala state where Ezhavas and thiyyas living was the first Communist State in India, we have to see this seriously. This book was published in 1981 not very long ago and i strongly believe that this author of this book wanted to merge ezhava and thiyya and portray them being downtrodden by ruling congress party. It was written for political gain and I think Sitush removed the reference.

Sitush has been making changes to Ezhava page many times since we started this discussion, I appreciate him for making changes. But he reverted some changes back to previous.

Since this article title is Ezhava, I am again requesting Sitush to remove all Thiyya references from this article. Thiyya is a separate caste and we need a separate wikipedia article page for Thiyya. I hope he will take this request into consideration. Irajeevwiki (talk) 02:00, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

No, that is not what we are discussing. You're trying to push a POV without any evidence. And your "beliefs" about an author don't mean anything. We base our decisions about what sources to use based upon WP:RS. Nothing you've said above indicates any reason to doubt the source, since it's based purely on your belief about someone's bias. To establish that bias, you'll need to show that reliable sources say it, not you. And if you want there to be a separate page about Thiyya, or even just to show that they are a separate caste, you're the one who will need to provide reliable sources. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:28, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

interesting reply Qwyrxian. When Sitush says he can't trust Edgar Thurstons you are giving full support. When we say Nossitor was a political writer with genuine and concrete evidence, you are just ignoring it. Have a look on Internet, google Nossitor and learn that Nossitor was a politician as well as a writer.Irajeevwiki (talk) 05:29, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

for your information qwyrxian we are discussing here for a consensus to remove all Thiyya references from this article. Look the edit request. This is follow up of that threadIrajeevwiki (talk) 05

35, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Nossiter was a local-level politician for the Liberal Democrats, who are not remotely a Communist party. and indeed are now one of the two parties forming the first coalition government in the UK for many years, together with the traditionally right-of-centre Conservative Party. I've had enough of this fooling around and incompetence. Take individual sources to WP:RSN or the Thiyya issue to WP:DR but be warned: whatever the outcome is on this occasion will stick for the foreseeable future - I am not prepared to go through this Thiyya POV pushing palaver yet again in six months time, so I suggest that you marshal your thoughts well and do your research beforehand. Nothing more from me here: you've had your chance and have consistently failed to follow policy. When the article comes off semi-protection on 25 March I shall not hesitate to request reinstatement of that if the POV pushers return and have not done as I suggest. - Sitush (talk) 07:08, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

In reference to the comment directed at me above, yes, I am rejecting the use of Thurston and supporting the use Nossiter. Being a politician does not make one's writing inherently unreliable. We look at the book, the type of info, the publisher, and whether or not it's used by others in the field. On all of these points, Nossiter passes, and Thurston does not. If you disagree, Sitush is right, take the matter to WP:RSN, because it seems very clear to me. And your thing about the Thiyya is just completely backwards. You're starting with the supposed "fact" that Thiyya are a separate caste, and you want to start removing sources that don't conform with that fact. That's absolutely not how you should ever edit a Misplaced Pages article. Instead, you need to look at each possible source, and then decide if it's reliable and due, and then figure out how to incorporate it. Anytime you start from the "Truth", you will always go wrong. As with Sitush, I don't think there's anything more that we can usefully say here. Sitush and I have pointed you to policies, principles, etc., and you haven't really responded to (or perhaps don't understand, or perhaps don't agree with) them. So, if you want to pursue dispute resolution, go ahead. Qwyrxian (talk) 09:17, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

The situation is becoming more complex. When we debate something we expect the other party to understand and listen in a neutral way. This is like few admins always wanted to support each other and we are left in a difficult situation.Pnranjith (talk) 17:39, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Remove points without any reference.

There are many points mentioned in this article without any valid reference. The citation given is wrong and invalid. Need to cleanup this as soon as possible to remove invalid details — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pnranjith (talk • contribs) 17:20, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Fine. Give me an example, please. - Sitush (talk) 17:33, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

1. Osella, Filippo and Caroline Osella (2000). Social Mobility in Kerala. Modernity and Identity in Conflict. Pluto Press, London. ISBN 0 7453 1694 8.
2. Fuller, C J (1976). The Nayars Today. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0 521 21301 0.
3. Kurup, K.K.N. (1988). Modern Kerala : studies in social and agrarian relations (1st ed. ed.). Delhi: Mittal Publications. ISBN 81-7099-094-7. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help)

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