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Revision as of 14:10, 27 March 2013 editNorth8000 (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers84,841 edits →Topic bans must include Goethean and Xenophrenic ← Previous edit		Revision as of 14:15, 27 March 2013 edit undoUbikwit (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users6,539 edits →Topic bans must include Goethean and Xenophrenic: source verification battlegroundNext edit →
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	::::::Goethean, do you have diffs of me "joining this effort?" Because I just looked the tobacco threads over and I'm not seeing Malke there. My first edit to the talk page in a year was to the 'worst article ever' thread. Your tobacco study/source debate started the beginning of February. Unless you can come up with a diff that shows me "joining this effort," please strike your comment. Thank you. ] (]) 17:31, 26 March 2013 (UTC) 15:53, 26 March 2013 (UTC)		::::::Goethean, do you have diffs of me "joining this effort?" Because I just looked the tobacco threads over and I'm not seeing Malke there. My first edit to the talk page in a year was to the 'worst article ever' thread. Your tobacco study/source debate started the beginning of February. Unless you can come up with a diff that shows me "joining this effort," please strike your comment. Thank you. ] (]) 17:31, 26 March 2013 (UTC) 15:53, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::There is still good reason to believe that the article represents the views of the authors outside their particular field of expertise and outside the field of expertise of the journal (''that'' field is the politics of the Tobacco industry, and the field of the statement made is the Tea Party). There is '''no''' reason to believe the statement Goethean <u>originally</u> added, attributing it to that article, '''was''' in the article, even though it was there for 2 months before being challenged. — ] ] 16:52, 26 March 2013 (UTC)		:::::::There is still good reason to believe that the article represents the views of the authors outside their particular field of expertise and outside the field of expertise of the journal (''that'' field is the politics of the Tobacco industry, and the field of the statement made is the Tea Party). There is '''no''' reason to believe the statement Goethean <u>originally</u> added, attributing it to that article, '''was''' in the article, even though it was there for 2 months before being challenged. — ] ] 16:52, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
			::::::::Arthur, I will grant that you have basically shown reasonableness--though stopped short of actually acceding that Hunt is a reliable source--in disussions relating to sources after the AN/I case, and I am not here seeking bogus punitive blocks or bans for anyone. On the other hand, I have to reiterate my disagreement regarding the status of the authors of the tobacco industry article and the relationship of the article to the TPM.
			::::::::The crux of the matter, the way I see it, is that the authors are indeed public health policy experts that have as one of their manifold focuses the tobacco industry, which has been exposed to be nefarious at least since the exposure of subliminal advertising techniques and misleading consumers about adverse health effects of which they were fully aware.
			::::::::The status of the article as an RS for the TPM article can be summed up in terms that the research of the authors on the tobacco industry vis-a-vis public health has indirectly exposed a connection to the TPM, which is connected to groups funded to counter anti-smoke grass-roots organizations, and was fostered partly in relation to the issue of tobacco excise taxes as an issue that resonates with the overall anti-tax platform of the TPM.
			::::::::There is nothing in that which would pose any sort of dilemma with respect to the authors writing outside of their field of expertise. So I found you reaction on the RSN, that is to say, shifting the basis of your opposition to the source as RS from a negation of the publication itself--which you seem to have acknowledged at one point--to a disqualification of the authors.
			::::::::That seems to represent a trait resembling a battleground disposition.] (]) 14:15, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

	:::::::Geothean, what you described above (making it sound like the issue and effort was to "remove a source" is very misleading, at least with respect to your involvement of me. My core argument was that the material you were warring in '''was not even in the source''', and not only wp:synth, but faulty synthesis at that. Here is my core comment "The text that you are trying to war in makes claims about the entire tea party movement, which is unsupported by even the cherry-picked sources and in fact in conflict with them. The text is in clear violation of wp:ver, and doubly so of wp:synth (not only is it synthesis, but it is faulty synthesis). And the additional source that you just provided reinforces that point. So mere presence of the material violates wp:ver and wp:synth, putting it in over such objection violates wp:burden, and trying to war it in makes it three-times-over problematic. " <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 17:50, 26 March 2013 (UTC)		:::::::Geothean, what you described above (making it sound like the issue and effort was to "remove a source" is very misleading, at least with respect to your involvement of me. My core argument was that the material you were warring in '''was not even in the source''', and not only wp:synth, but faulty synthesis at that. Here is my core comment "The text that you are trying to war in makes claims about the entire tea party movement, which is unsupported by even the cherry-picked sources and in fact in conflict with them. The text is in clear violation of wp:ver, and doubly so of wp:synth (not only is it synthesis, but it is faulty synthesis). And the additional source that you just provided reinforces that point. So mere presence of the material violates wp:ver and wp:synth, putting it in over such objection violates wp:burden, and trying to war it in makes it three-times-over problematic. " <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 17:50, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

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Comment by parties:

Herein lies the crux of the problem on Tea Party movement. One side wants to edit in as much negative content as possible and keep out positive edits, while the other side wants to edit out negativity and load in more positive edits. These negotiations almost always involve the sources. The problem with a topic like TPM is that it's vague and so you don't often find, especially after all this time, reliable sources like the Washington Post, New York Times, L.A. Times, picking up these news bits. Instead, you get Joe's blog, or some dodgy journal masquerading as a legitimate peer-reviewed journal. As an example, Goethean opened a thread about a journal/study that claimed the TPM, this amorphous entire movement, was actually started/funded long ago by the tobacco industry.

Apparently, this was a brand new claim and had not been picked up by the mainstream media as yet. When an editor questioned the source, Goethean informed the editor that his comments were "strictly partisan, had no relation to Misplaced Pages policy and could be ignored as irrelevant." And then he announced that the source was of the "highest order" and "will be used in this article." And what followed were several interminable threads about RS. The edit was made, it was reverted, etc. I don't even know if it's in or out at this point. It doesn't matter. What matters, IMHO, is that these round-robins about negative/positive content and sources, are the font from which animosity, personal attacks, battle, and incivility spring. At the end of the day, the encyclopedia suffers. Malke 2010 (talk) 02:52, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment by others:

I think that the tone of your remark belies the tendentious nature of the discussions over reliable sources, which really should not be so tendentious.

Neutrality does not mean that the content of an article is not going to present views that might offend the sensibilities of someone with an emotional attachment to the topic. Neutrality is defined in relation to sources, and the attempt by advocates to deprecate sources is one of the largest hindrances I have come across in trying to contribute content to this website.

Now then, where was I at before distraction took over?

Oh yeah, I was going to quote this passage from one of the above-referenced policies.

Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources.

Dealing with repeated and persistent irrational opposition regarding sources is not a joke, as it prevents anything from getting done on the article that would actually reflect the state of what RS are saying.

It definitely is the case that RS/N should be used more in relation to such indirect content disputes, but the discussion related to the tobacco article there shows that even there making progress can be difficult.Ubikwit (talk) 17:47, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

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As I said above. Malke 2010 (talk) 02:54, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

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Neutrality and sources

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One would have to grant that the TPM article, in view of the decentralized character of the movement, presents certain problems with respect to harmonizing sources, which may relate to any of the respective various disparate constituent non-parts of the phantom whole in all of their burgeoning glory.

It may make for an interesting opportunity for word play, but I, for one, am not of a mind that it is not possible to address the TPM as a whole.--Ubikwit (talk) 19:22, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

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Though not a party to this action and having minimal experience editing the article and participating in related discussions, I have gleaned a couple of insights.

First, due to the fragmented nature of the TPM, it is inevitable that there is going to be a fair amount of piecemeal editing related to one aspect or another of the activities or the like of one group or another affiliated with "the movement".

That in itself seems to be a cause of friction against with editors that want to present a united front for "the movement".

This, in turn, point to the main division relating to the topic disputes that drive a good deal of the tendentious editing. That is, namely, the so-called "astro-turf" vs authentic divide.

In the single section of the article I engaged in editing, I recall that there appeared to be an attempt to misappropriate a source related to an NPR controversy. In that case, there was an incident in which the CEO resigned because of statements made by an executive heading the fund raising department in a sting set up by (TPM?) activists.

There were editors that wanted to represent the source solely as a source for casting aspersions on the "liberal" media by the mea cupa resignation of the CEO, while deprecating the statements made by the fund raiser that triggered the resignation. It seemed obvious to me that the statement of the fund raiser were relevant context, yet most of the editors had not even done the homework of examining the sources. In the end people recognized the claims I was making (which basically expanded on or supported claims made by Gothean or Xenophreninc earlier), after which what I suppose was a consensus was reached not to include anything from that source at all.

It seems to me that perhaps something about that incident should be described on the article, as it appears to have received a fair amount of attention in the media. However, because the statements of the fund raiser problematized the possibility of presenting the incident with the sort of high-impact POV that was apparently being sought, everything was nixed, leaving something of a hole in the article, certainly not informing the reading public.

Most of the tendentious interaction I've seen has been on the Talk page, and much of it relates to sources and the application thereof in the above-described context.--Ubikwit (talk) 09:15, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

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We can disagree as to which editors may have violated this. It would also be a good suggestion that participating editors accurately interpret what has been said and done, and to note that unjust attacks may also further inflame the issues, even if done civilly. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:01, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

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ANI is all of the above. The problem is picking the right battle to bring there. North8000 was being disruptive and KC should have blocked him. ANI does not stop disruption in the moment. Blocks do that. It would have been better to save going to ANI for an interminable dispute, which happen often enough. This might well have brought out rational editors suggesting ArbCom. Certainly the desysop bit wouldn't have happened, but that's not KC's fault. I've never seen editors come out so fast and post such vitriol so furiously. Their posts offered virtually nothing in the way of constructively managing problems at TPM. Malke 2010 (talk) 03:43, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

I think the chaotic, hostile reaction shows my judgment was correct, rather than the reverse, in choosing to take this to a wider audience. Had it been merely North8000, it would not have spiraled out of control so fast - and I note below you call for sanctions on Goethean and Xenophrenic, which would hardly be the case if you thought North8000 were the sole issue. As he is not the sole issue, I contend my decision to take this to ANI was the appropriate decision. Killer Chihuahua 20:44, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

I think you were definitely right to close that thread and come here. I wonder if it was a full moon that night. I still think a block was in order. Next time, remember you have that special admin Twinkle app. Malke 2010 (talk) 19:45, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks; I think so too. As far as remembering to use my "special admin Twinkle app" (cute!) remember that there are 1,354 results for for "admin abuse" on prefix:Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard - which doesn't even include other phrasing, such as "investigate admin for misuse of block" or "this admin abused their tools" etc. Most of those are because admins remembered they had "special admin Twinkle". It is often best to be slow and sure, rather than quick to block. Killer Chihuahua 20:07, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

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Proposed findings of fact

Tea Party movement article

1) The Tea party movement article and related articles have been subject to edit warring, partisan editing, and generally incivil behavior. This has at times spilled out into noticeboards.

Comment by Arbitrators:

There was discussion that the scope of this case should include US politics rather than just the Tea party movement. But I don't think that is what you mean by "related articles". Do you mean the articles mentioned by Viriditas? SilkTork 14:42, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Would you say that this is an issue which is particular to articles in Category:Tea Party movement, or that it is present in US politics articles, but only in Tea Party movement does the behaviour become serious enough for possible ArbCom sanctions? SilkTork 16:28, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

I think it would be helpful to name the related articles, because I am not aware of what is related beyond Tea Party rallies. Malke 2010 (talk) 16:45, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

SilkTork, I mean at least that. Unfortunately, due to space and time constraints, I was unable to do so, but I believe it would be fairly easy to document similar issues on all articles included in Category:Tea Party movement. I think the remedy should include the category; it will make determining whether an article comes under DS very simple. Should you feel that is too broad, then I would think some care will need to be taken to determine the scope. Killer Chihuahua 15:16, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

I would say that US politics in general at this time tends towards strong opinion and partisan editing. I would not say that all US politics articles are currently in need of DS, although a good case could be made for several. I would have to say many, but not all, TPM articles have serious behavior which would indicate a need for sanctions - and I think that 1) the category makes it easy to determine which articles without in-depth analysis of each and every article and 2) if we choose some, then there is likelihood the behavior will spill onto currently not-so-problematic, related articles, much as Abortion issues leak over into the Fetus article. I'm Goldilocks here - I think all US politics would be too broad a topic for sanctions, I think naming a few articles would be too narrow; I think the TPM category might be just right. If we name specific articles, I will probably ask for an extension so I can examine all the articles in question in greater detail. Killer Chihuahua 18:17, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

(e/c)But what articles would that be? I'm not familiar with Tea Party rallies except that 3 years ago it was voted to keep separate from TPM. I don't believe they have issues over there. I'm not familiar with any other tea party articles other than Jenny Beth Martin, Tea Party Patriots and Tea Party Patriots Citizens Fund which don't appear controversial, or even edited much. The thread on your talk page about Single Payer healthcare, is that what you're talking about? Malke 2010 (talk) 18:22, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Articles in Category:Tea Party movement. Click on the category for a list. Or look at the categories in any given article to see if that category is present, and if the category is there, then it is in that category. Killer Chihuahua 18:39, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

LOL, it has its own category! Malke 2010 (talk) 19:35, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment by others:

North8000

2) North8000 has engaged in incivility and personal attacks on Talk:Tea Party movement. He has shown battleground behavior.

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Comment by parties:

You might want to split this one into two parts and treat each part separately. Killer Chihuahua 10:08, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

This has no basis. This is centered around two accurate useful comments. Please see the evidence. North8000 (talk) 20:14, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

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Darkstar1st

3) Darkstar1st has engaged in incivility on Talk:Tea Party movement and in edit summaries. He has shown battleground behavior.

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Comment by parties:

You might want to split this one into two parts and treat each part separately. Killer Chihuahua 10:08, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

one edit to the article since August 2012, which was reverted, am I really battling? The incivility claims are from 2011 when I attempted to remove grossly offensive terms from the article, which remain still. Darkstar1st (talk) 09:19, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit warring tends to show in article edits; battleground behavior shows more in talk and other page posts. You intentionally started a section with a heading of words you find objectionable, and you did it again in your evidence section here. You could have titled the section on the TPM talk page as "Objectionable content" and you could have titled your evidence section here as "Talk page headings" - but you didn't. You actually chose to use words you, yourself, find offensive - not just offensive, but "grossly offensive". You were trying to get a rise out of people, you were intentionally using offensive words. You were picking a fight, and that's battleground to a T. And it wasn't just then, it is, as we can see on the evidence page, here and now. Killer Chihuahua 09:51, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Malke 2010

4) Malke 2010 has engaged in incivility and failed to assume good faith on Talk:Tea Party movement.

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Comment by parties:

My one comment to KillerChihuahua on the talk page was an ill-timed reaction to both North8000 and KC using my name in their argument. I have taken several opportunities at ANI and ArbCom to apologize to her. Granted, it's hard to assume good faith when your name is being bandied about. However, had I investigated further I would have seen that the real issue was about something that had occurred at an earlier date, and had nothing to do with me. Malke 2010 (talk) 05:12, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

You might want to take this as a lesson learned, and not attack editors out of hand in the future. Killer Chihuahua 08:30, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Arthur Rubin is involved

5) Arthur Rubin is involved as an active editor of Tea party movement.

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Comment by parties:

Not active, really, unless the standards for being "active" have devolved considerably. Involved, yes. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:14, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

I refer you to my evidence, and wonder, how is a little more than an edit every other day not active? If it were only two or three a week? Only one a week? It looks active to me. I don't know where your line of demarcation is, but this is not even borderline to me. One edit a week is still "currently editing" and you're doing considerably more than that. Killer Chihuahua 08:34, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Arthur Rubin has violated POINT

6) Arthur Rubin has disrupted Misplaced Pages to prove a point; has failed to respond to requests for rationale and evidence while continuing to assert sanctions on another editor were called for.

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Comment by parties:

The "disruption" due to my actions was minimal. It would have done quite well without me. I admit to violating WP:POINT, as did most editors in the ANI thread/subpage. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:17, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

That's a rather sweeping accusation. Are you certain it is "most" and not merely "some"? I only counted two, out of a total of at least 34 editors (some commented before it was moved to the subpage), who I think violated POINT. Yet you contend more than half violated POINT? If you do think so, why did you offer no evidence to support that allegation? Why do you not propose the persons be found to have violated POINT as a proposed finding of fact? I think you're painting with a very broad brush there, and I see no reason to think that most parties were not genuinely trying to offer input and resolve the issues. I grant you that, as Malke states elsewhere on this page, it was a case of "editors come out so fast and post such vitriol so furiously" yet I do not believe there was intentional disruption of Misplaced Pages by most of these. Some were cases of a battlefield mindset, others very probably due to frustration at a long running problem on the article. I believe many editors were genuinely trying to resolve the problem. Killer Chihuahua 04:49, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

KC, you were trying to resolve the issue and maybe a few others. Most of those people commenting had never even edited TPM. That aside, Arthur should not have added to the desysop post. As I recall, he said he had an e/c and did not know that would be there. There's no reason not to believe him so I give him the benefit of the doubt. The issue was not about you and any posts to suggest you were acting in bad faith should have been redacted by the editors involved. IMHO, there was no proof of bad faith behavior by you. Malke 2010 (talk) 05:23, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

I said one of those sentences backwards, but as I got the rest right I trust everyone knew it was a typo. Fixed from "I see no reason to think most were" to "I see no reason to think most were not". Apologies for any confusion. Killer Chihuahua 08:26, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Malke, in the post where he said he had an edit conflict, he said he'd been planning to start a section to call for sanctions on me. He added to the started section (North8000 calling for my desysoping) instead. The edit conflict exonerates nothing. I don't doubt it; I do believe Rubin when he stated that he'd been planning to start a section calling for sanctions against me, especially as he promptly doubled-down on the call. Killer Chihuahua 08:44, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I didn't read that section thoroughly at the time. The thread title was still banging around my head. Malke 2010 (talk) 15:39, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Arthur Rubin previously admonished

7) In Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Date delinking, closed 23:20, 12 January 2009 (UTC), Arthur Rubin was "admonished for threatening to use his administrator tools to advance his position in a dispute."

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Comment by parties:

Precedent set by C68-FM-SV#FeloniousMonk, and I presume other cases, to note prior instances of remedies by ArbCom in the case of an administrator. Killer Chihuahua 08:39, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment by others:

KillerChihuahua is uninvolved

8) KillerChihuahua is an uninvolved admin, and has been acting in that capacity regarding the Tea party movement.

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Comment by parties:

I realized if this isn't a finding of fact, I might be considered involved due to this case. A ruling on this is necessary for me moving forward; I must know how the committee views this, and I prefer to know pre-emptively. Killer Chihuahua 20:40, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

IMO the catalyst for the conflagration was the dustup between you and me on my talk page, IMHO you were involved on that. You may have been uninvolved at the article but it is really only a sidebar to the catalyst for the conflagration. I used "catalyst" in it's technical sense. Once the fuse is lit, AN and ANI's on vague behavioral charges tend to turn into random mob violence situations all on their own. North8000 (talk) 21:17, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

What, I was involved in being an uninvolved admin? There was no "dustup." There was me telling you to stop accusing others with no diffs, and telling you to stop the personal attacks, and there was you arguing. That's not a "dustup" that's a poor choice on your part. I have already explained to you that I am not involved just because I warned you about behavior. An admin is specifically not involved if all they do is act in an administrative capacity. You can repeat your belief until the cows come home, but it won't hold water. I quote from the policy page: One important caveat is that an administrator who has interacted with an editor or topic area purely in an administrative role, or whose prior involvements are minor or obvious edits which do not speak to bias, is not involved and is not prevented from acting in an administrative capacity in relation to that editor or topic area. This is because one of the roles of administrators is precisely to deal with such matters, at length if necessary. Warnings, calm and reasonable discussion and explanation of those warnings, advice about community norms, and suggestions on possible wordings and approaches do not make an administrator 'involved'. Killer Chihuahua 23:41, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

I believe that a dustup between you and me happened which was quite separate from anything at the article. I think that you made 3-4 errors early in the process, I tried engaging you in discussion on some of those, you refused to do so. Despite the fact that I disengaged on both the talk page and the article on that topic and it went stale, what was your basis for going to ANI based on one comment in an unrelated area? IMHO the dominant force in the course of events was a dustup between you and me on my talk page, not anything that happened at the article. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:52, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

We disagree rather thoroughly on this. I think the only error I might have made was the one Malke 2010 pointed out, in that it might have been simpler just to block you rather than to go to ANI. I certainly don't recall you "trying to engage" me. Killer Chihuahua 12:51, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

IMHO the errors made were:

Immediately declaring that Goethean had not been doing Tendentious editing, that self-check ostensibly being the reason tat they approached you on this. Tendentiousness takes a huge amount of work to check out, how could you have done that immediately?
Erroneously implying that my commenting on behavior without supplying DIFFS (not without basis, but specifically without DIFFS) was improper behavior. And despite the fact that a specific case was the immediate item under discussion. Is one supposed to provide diffs to the current discussion?
Created an impossible / certain-to-fail situation for me, knowing that it takes an immense amount of history to establish Tendentiousness, and knowing that trying to show it with a few diffs is a recipe for certain failure, you said I needed to do that.
Refusing to answer my very reasonable question on the above dilemma, instead just saying that you "have spoken"
(arguable) I would think that you would know by now that vague behavior-related topic at AN and ANI nearly always turn into chaotic mob-violence, so taking it there in a vague fashion was an arguably an error.
With the original topic having gone disengaged and stale, going to ANI on the basis of a single comment on an unrelated topic, my comment about a nasty comment that Goethen made.
At the ANI, immediately defending Goethean against any action, while "stoking it" regarding me

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:00, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Didn't do that. I asked for diffs, so I could determine whether he had. You refused to provide even a single diff.
I don't know what you think the error is here. If you want to complain about disruption (or any misbehavior) to an admin, you need to provide at least one diff.
I am sorry you found it impossible to provide even the one single diff I asked for. However, that was your lookout when you made the accusation.
What question?
ANI sometimes a drama-fest. It is still the appropriate place for an admin to seek input on a complex problem.
Yes, the original accusations by you were a little stale. It is too bad you started up with them again, and then accused me of being involved due to my trying to get a diff from you, and warning you, earlier.
Really? That's not how I'd characterize what I did at ANI.

I think we'd best let this drop at this point, and let the Arbs decide. Killer Chihuahua 15:25, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

your insistence on difs is inconsistent. When Xenophrenic added me to your ANI to topic ban me you asked for difs, which have yet to be provided, wouldn't that be the greater violation of not diffing? North didn't even bring charges against Goethean. Darkstar1st (talk) 15:40, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

KC, you could be seen as involved since you have not included Goethean and Xenophrenic. Please see evidence page re: Goethean. You moderated a dispute after Goethean contacted you. I looked that over. That seemed fine. But now, you don't seem to be seeing Goethean's incivility, WP:BATTLE, and WP:Own, Nor Xenophrenic's. Goethean has even admitted on ANI that his comment at the opening of a thread was wrong. It's not his first comment of that nature. Can you really interpret Goethean's comments to editors as civil? Can you really leave off a close examination of Goethean's comments and Xenophrenic's editing and still be an "uninvolved admin?" Malke 2010 (talk) 16:11, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

That would be KC showing bias, not KC being involved. It's still good grounds for removal from taking administrative and quasi-administrative actions on the topic. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:34, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

No, that would be me not finding evidence against them. If I don't find evidence, I'm not going to call for sanctions, and that is in no way bias. I am insulted and offended that you have so characterized my evidence here. I note Malke 2010 has called for sanctions on G and X and no one else- yet I do not accuse her of bias, thereby insulting her. I would appreciate it if you could manage at least on this case page not to malign my ethics without strong evidence - and this is not only not strong evidence, it is not evidence at all. I have myself given extensive evidence that Goethean and I have virtully never agreed and I have had no reason until now to do a similar study of my interactions with Xeno but I would not be surprised to find a similar non-history. And Rubin, I'd think you'd be about done calling for sanctions and measures against me. Don't you think you've done yourself enough damage? Killer Chihuahua 18:28, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

(e/c) I was merely pointing out that not including Goethean and Xenophrenic could be seen as involvement, i.e., showing a bias. That's why I pointed out Goethean's violations of WP:CIVIL. They are clearly there. I was being a devils advocate. I was not suggesting sanctions. My solution for all the editors would be to eject anybody who has been active consistently for one year. Editors don't know when to quit. I left because I didn't see a way to fix the article. Most of the editors there now have been active on that article, consistently, for 3 years. That's way too long. That's why that article is having problems. Not the admin. Malke 2010 (talk) 18:53, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't saying you were being biased, Malke, I was saying no one should accuse you of being biased because you only added a couple of editors - which is what AR is doing to me. Using you as an example is all. Apologies if I was unclear and confused things. Killer Chihuahua 19:01, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

'kay, no problem. Malke 2010 (talk) 19:08, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

you need to hush up about it...puppy has spoken; puppy is done, this appears to be the beginning of things going bad. KC is demanding difs concerning a talk page post by North hours later, yet a week later has yet to demand difs from Xenophrenic who was seeking a topic ban for me at KC's ANI. Darkstar1st (talk) 18:39, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Wow. Cherry picking is not helpful. Full quote: ":I don't know how clear I can make this. If you cannot make a case to someone else, you need to hush up about it. Otherwise you're just slinging around unsubstantiated allegations, which might rebound on you and will cause no sanctions against him. Puppy has spoken; puppy is done. " and this was after I asked for a diff two times and ~~you~~ he failed to provide one. It was not that I was refusing to consider evidence; it was that ~~you~~ he failed utterly to give any. Killer Chihuahua 18:50, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

you are confused, you have never ask me for a dif. Darkstar1st (talk) 19:12, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

what is more confusing is why you insist on a dif here, and not from Xenophrenic which was actually part of an ANI, not just some idle talk page dustup. Darkstar1st (talk) 19:14, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Too many replies at once, I was thinking of North8000 of course. I have corrected this. And I did ask for diffs from Xeno. That was also a different situation. Multiple people were offering diffs and views; I was not by myself investigating one lone editor making personal attacks and accusations. Killer Chihuahua 19:23, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Multiple people were offering diffs and views, incorrect, not a single dif was offered before or after you ask. Darkstar1st (talk) 20:06, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Around 40 people offered different views and many of them posted diffs. I don't think you're looking at the same page I am. Killer Chihuahua 20:36, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

perhaps not, could you post the difs of my behavior submitted at your ANI here? Darkstar1st (talk) 20:42, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I see the confusion. I said diffs and views and you thought it was all about you. It wasn't. There were sections for at least half a dozen editors. The diffs of your behavior are on the evidence page here. And now I'm going to ask you to cease this off topic line of discussion here; this has nothing to do with whether I was or was not involved. Killer Chihuahua 20:52, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

thought an ANI you started and i was added to not by you but never diffed was all about me, perhaps you are confused again? this convo has been helpful as it established you require difs from some, but not others, which is what started the ANI, now here. Darkstar1st (talk) 21:32, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

No, that is not what it has established. We'll have to just disagree on that one. Killer Chihuahua 21:48, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

yes, you started the ANI about North providing no difs, Xenophrenic added me without difs, you ask for the difs then oppose my topic ban when none provided, yet take no action against Xenophrenic? Darkstar1st (talk) 21:54, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I am taking no action against anyone for merely listing someone who edited the article for sanctions on that ANI thread. None of them. I am bringing here the people whom I had already decided were the problems on that article, which was not resolved at ANI. I added you when I saw some of your edits while searching the history. But no one was added here by me for proposing sanctions on active editors on the article, on an ANI thread. There is absolute consistency here. The only person I listed here due to their actions on ANI (and talk pages) is Arthur Rubin, who did something else. Now, I'm done with this dead horse. This has nothing to do whatsoever with whether I am involved. Killer Chihuahua 22:04, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

exactly, you started an ANI because North failed to provide difs concerning a talk page discussion, yet you did nothing when an editor made a baseless charge asking for a topic ban in an ANI case, continuity non existit. Darkstar1st (talk) 22:12, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

How many times do I have to say that is not why I started that thread for it to sink in? You are in error. You have mistaken my intent and reason. You are, in short, wrong. I'm done here. Killer Chihuahua 22:57, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

the opening sentence of the ANI: ...I asked the accusing editor to provide a diff.... cherry-picking not applicable, i post the quote with ellipses to save space here with the hope those interested will see the context after clicking the link. feel free to post the entire quote if you feel i am in error. Darkstar1st (talk) 23:41, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

And fairy tales begin once upon a time, but that is not why the prince slays the dragon. I not only feel you are in error, I've told you that you're dead wrong several times now, and yet you persist. Are you calling me a liar? You're edging into badgering now. IDHT wears pretty thin after the first 3 or 4 times. Killer Chihuahua 03:15, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

...vague accusations but not a single diff..., ...either provide diffs, or cease the accusations..., difs were the focus of your ANI wording, no matter your intent, which appears to be selective as you did not tell other editors making far more serious allegations the same. North was on a talk page, Xenophrenic was in your ANI. Darkstar1st (talk) 08:37, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Hello KC, Responding on those 7 items:

By the same day that you said you were going to look at it (Feb 19th) you already said to Goethean that it that it appeared that my coments were motivated by a content dispute rather than concern about TE editing.
I didn't want to complain about anything to an admin. I only wanted to note the behavior at the article talk page in an effort to try to reduce that behavior. It was over at that point.
You completely missed or misheard the point. I said that it was impossible to show TE editing with one or a few diffs, such requires hundreds of observations.
Answering your question, My question that you wouldn't answer was that, acknowledging #3, what did you want me to do
(nothing further)
I didn't start them up again. It was over. Then Goethean made a very nasty comment on a totally different topic and I noted that such nastiness was against guidelines. Then you want after me for saying that.
You immediately proposed topic bans, and immediately defended Goethean against bans. Later that mob violence situation ensued, probably more than anyone intended.

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:00, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

North8000, several of your point items are wrong, and none of them make me involved. You're really beating a dead horse here. Killer Chihuahua 20:36, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

I not would call happenings at the core of this whole case thing to be a dead horse, but I think we both finished saying what we wanted to say. Except that if you think that I'm wrong on any matters of fact you should provide specifics. Of course a few items (such as #5 & #7) must be acknowledged as matters of opinion. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:38, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

The Tea Party movement is placed under discretionary sanctions

1) Articles relating to the area of the Tea Party movement are placed under discretionary sanctions. At the discretion of any uninvolved administrator, they may impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if that editor fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, the expected standards of behavior, or the normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; restrictions on; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project, including page protection. Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision.

This remedy supersedes the limited sanctions that were put in place by the community.

Comment by Arbitrators:

I think something that the Committee will need to decide is if it is the topic itself that is problematic, or certain editors. Or both. SilkTork 17:27, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Whatever is in place on The Troubles would likely be effective for the Tea Party movement and related articles. Malke 2010 (talk) 16:48, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

TROUBLES is under standard discretionary sanctions, which is what I am proposing here. See here. Killer Chihuahua 20:33, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

ST: It is something to decide, but it's not necessarily a two-choice decision. There is always the possibility it is both. The topic is a problem, and there are problem editors editing the topic. Killer Chihuahua 18:20, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Editors encouraged

2) All involved editors in the Tea party movement topic area are encouraged to try to collaborate and work constructively instead of accusing others of misconduct.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

North8000 topic banned

3) North8000 is topic banned from the Tea party movement, broadly construed, including talk pages, for a period of one year.

Comment by Arbitrators:

I have looked at North8000's edits on the article and I'm not seeing an obvious reason for a topic ban. I see North8000 doing a lot of reverting, but this doesn't appear to move into edit wars. Is this based on comments made on the talkpage? There's over two years worth of comments there, and much of it appears to be an attempt to get discussion going on how to improve the article (but I've not examined the full two years worth). In the comment that initiated this case, North8000 wasn't diplomatic with his use of words. But that appears to be the case for many people involved in this case. And we have various users issuing threats and assuming bad faith. I'm not sure anyone is coming out of this looking good. However, for a topic ban, I think we need some evidence of long term disruption, not one incident which blew up out of control. SilkTork 18:43, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Malke, my assumption of all users is that they are here to assist the project, so I'm not that interested in dif which support my assumption, I would be more interested in difs which support a view that North8000 has been disruptive in the topic area and so needs topic banning. SilkTork 10:56, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

KC, there's not huge community support there. 60%? And a number of people appear to be reacting to the blow up, rather than the history of North8000's involvement in the topic area. I'm wondering if there is anything more serious here than a group of people blowing up. And also, if this can be resolved by people examining their behaviour, realising what mistakes they themselves made, apologising, and then moving on. SilkTork 11:11, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

3 and 4 are "pick one". This is my second choice. Killer Chihuahua 09:17, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

There is absolutely NO basis for this. North8000 (talk) 20:16, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

ST: Clearly I should not have spent so much of my evidence space on AR, leaving none for N8. That said, editors are regularly topic banned for personal attacks and creating a hostile atmosphere - battleground behavior is prohibited. And this is one of the worst cases I've seen. Killer Chihuahua 18:56, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

SilkTork, North8000 often takes a mediator role on TPM. My recollection is that from the beginning of his participation there he has tried to negotiate less negativity. If you like I could point you to some archive threads so you don't have to scroll through three years of talk page. Malke 2010 (talk) 18:59, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

ST: You may wish to examine the level of community support for this from the ANI thread as well. Killer Chihuahua 19:04, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment by others:

North8000 topic banned (2)

4) North8000 is topic banned from the Tea party movement, broadly construed, including talk pages, indefinitely. He may apply to have the ban lifted after a period of one year.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

3 and 4 are "pick one". This is my first choice; I beleive it will encourage editing in other areas of Wikipeida, and picking up some much needed experience working with others. Killer Chihuahua 09:17, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

There is absolutely NO basis for this. North8000 (talk) 20:17, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Darkstar1st topic banned

5) Darkstar1st is topic banned from the Tea party movement, broadly construed, including talk pages, for a period of one year.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

5 and 6 are "pick one". This is my second choice. Killer Chihuahua 20:25, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Darkstar1st topic banned (2)

6) Darkstar1st is topic banned from the Tea party movement, broadly construed, including talk pages, indefinitely. He may apply to have the ban lifted after a period of one year.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

5 and 6 are "pick one". This is my first choice; I believe it will encourage editing in other areas of Misplaced Pages, and picking up some much needed experience working with others. Killer Chihuahua 20:25, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

actually this was your 3rd choice as you opposed the topic ban Xenophrenic called for after he failed to provide diffs. (KC was originally neutral in the ANI waiting for Xenophrenic to support his allegation. Minutes after i noted the inconsistency here, KC amended her response to support) Darkstar1st (talk) 09:37, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

i do not plan to make any more edits to the tea party article or talk page. yesterday i brought a source about teaparty.net supporting the starbucks boycott because the starbucks CEO is opposed to gay marriage, the source was rejected as insignificant and unreliable. We already say that the Tea Party opposes same sex marriage., was the reason it was rejected. I also agree most of the problem here is combining hundreds of groups into a "movement", which none claim individually to belong. OWS makes no mention of members who attempted to blow up a bridge Brecksville-Northfield High Level Bridge (they even pushed the detonator) and even deleted the OWS/Cleveland chapter article, yet if a dog barks it is included on the TP article, i give up and am moving on to topics like Camp Chapman attack. Darkstar1st (talk) 09:49, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Arthur Rubin reminded

7) Arthur Rubin is reminded that as an administrator, he must be responsive to requests for information, especially when he has called for sanctions or other administrative actions against another editor.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

7 and 8 are probably "pick one". Killer Chihuahua 23:45, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Arthur Rubin admonished

8) Arthur Rubin is admonished for calling for sanctions against an uninvolved administrator on an article which he actively edits.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

7 and 8 are probably "pick one". Killer Chihuahua 23:45, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Arthur Rubin topic banned

9) Arthur Rubin is topic banned from the Tea party movement, broadly construed, including talk pages, for a period of six months.

Comment by Arbitrators:

What is the basis for this? I can understand that some kind of response and closure would be helpful for Arthur Rubin's involvement in the ANI discussion, but is his editing in the topic area problematic? I don't think there's evidence for that. SilkTork 16:18, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

The Schulz evidence consists of a link to this discussion on RSN. Rubin took part in that discussion, but I'm afraid you're going to have to explain to me why his taking part in a discussion on a source means he should be topic banned. I'm clearly missing something, because both you and Schulz are seeing something there, so it would help to have some guidance on what it is you folks are seeing. SilkTork 11:43, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to have a stab at it: Rubin has doubts about the suitability of a source, and you and others feel that his doubts are not reasonable, and that he is deliberately attempting to suppress a legitimate source in order to bias the Tea Party article. I think the Committee might need more evidence. If there are more occasions in which Rubin can be seen to be unreasonably blocking legitimate material, or has been introducing bias in the article either by direct editing or supporting inappropriate ideas on the talkpage, that would be worth looking at. But one discussion in which he feels a source is not the right fit, is unlikely to be sufficient by itself. SilkTork 12:02, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Rubin was actively editing throughout this case; I believe his POINTy BATTLE call for sanctions was due to his involvement with the article. I can see no other plausible reason for his aggressive and inappropriate behavior. I don't anticipate this passing, but offer it as a possible remedy as I think it might be helpful to have him removed from the article during its first months of probation. I have not been encouraged by his attitude during this case to believe that he regrets his actions and plans to not allow his personal interest in an article cloud his judgment. This is regrettable in any editor, but doubly so in an administrator. Killer Chihuahua 20:28, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

ST: as I said, I don't see this one passing. I put it forward for consideration because it appears to me that Rubin is enabling problem editors. If the committee feels that is not grounds for such a remedy, then that's perfectly acceptable to me. Killer Chihuahua 18:22, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

You may wish to also consider the evidence given by Stephan Schulz, and the observations by MastCell on the evidence talk page. Killer Chihuahua 19:30, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment by others:

I can't say I've followed this case or the topic area closely, but regarding Arthur... in my interactions elsewhere, I've found him to be an opinionated but generally conscientious editor. I can recall times we've agreed and times we've disagreed, but he's been reasonable either way. When it was pointed out that Tobacco Control is in fact peer-reviewed, he did back off his statement to the contrary. As is probably evident from my comments on the Evidence talkpage, I'm much more concerned by editors who continue repeating false statements even after they've been shown to be false. MastCell 21:35, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Good to know; thank you for taking the time to add that. Killer Chihuahua 22:07, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Proposed enforcement

1) All sanctions imposed under the provisions of this decision are to be logged at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Tea Party movement#Log of blocks and bans.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Standard. Killer Chihuahua 20:14, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

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1) The Tea party Movement article is in very bad shape.

The article is in bad shape and contains large amounts of trivia that is in there for effect rather than to inform. This is the case with most Misplaced Pages articles on topics which cover a real world "conflict". While the "fault" primarily lies with Misplaced Pages policies which either fail to help guide these situations, or which are too easily mis-used in situations such as this, other actions can help the situation. Two factors have made the course of the TPM article somewhat different. One is the the 1RR restriction which tends to reward tendentious editing, and in fact, the results of disputes at the article have been largely determined by tendentiousness than resolution in discussions. The second is that the TPM is a phenomena, not an entity, leaving it open to very creative interpretations of what is and isn't germane.

Comment by Arbitrators:

"the 1RR restriction ... tends to reward tendentious editing" and "an active POV-warrior can add multiple contentious statements, and the "reverting" editor might only be able to remove one". Are there examples of this? SilkTork 16:24, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

I think, perhaps Viriditas may be correct that this particular 1RR restriction rewards tendentious editing more than the standard one. However, I, personally, think the standard 1RR would make it worse, as an active POV-warrior can add multiple contentious statements, and the "reverting" editor might only be able to remove one. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:07, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't think there's a problem with Misplaced Pages policies. The policies are meant to be flexible to fit unforeseen situations. The problem seems to be with editors who want to interpret the policies to their advantage to win an argument/battle, or to block an editor from making an edit they don't agree with. And that is an enduring problem on TPM. And I'm not speaking to the 1RR, I'm responding to policy in general. As for 1RR, the need for it speaks to the larger issues which 1RR can't resolve. Malke 2010 (talk) 04:13, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

I think that we're partially agreeing. But I think that one big hole is on the topic of inclusion/exclusion. The net effect that degree of relevance is easily excluded from the conversation, and also that the others are still too easily mis-quoted as saying that verifiability is a force for inclusion rather than (just) a requirement for inclusion. North8000 (talk) 11:45, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

(to SilkTork). I don't have a specific example. Hypothetically, if editor X adds contentious material A and B and removes contentious material C and D, in an article subject to standard 1RR restrictions, and, editor Y removes A, and editor Z makes a edit in a different section of the article, then Y could not remove B or restore C or D without violating 1RR. It makes it even more critical in making POV edits, to do them quickly, so that they cannot easily be reverted; and in reverting to do so summarily without thought, to avoid being prevented (by 1RR) from making other constructive reverts and partial reverts. Perhaps if 0RR/self is added (you may not revert any edit which restores an edit you previously made), together with this 1RR restriction, it might help stabilize the article. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:43, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

That math of what you are both saying is very true and I think that the possibility that you are describing exists. However, my observation is the the main way that the 1RR has rewarded TE editing is by making edit wars longer term and less visible. Despite warnings against slow motion edit wars, there has been zero scrutiny or enforcement on that point. Thus, anyone who is willing to conduct slow motion edit wars always wins. North8000 (talk) 13:03, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

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Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Topic bans must include Goethean and Xenophrenic

5) Improvement of the article must come first. Topic bans are not punitive. They are meant to prevent disruption. Any imposition of topic bans must include the editors actively contributing on a regular basis to the problems on the article. As a special sanction for Tea Party movement, no editor can remain active for more than one year.

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The problem is that the same editors are there all the time, voicing the same complaints and editing in the same way, with no improvement to the article. I stopped by after a year and found the same arguments as usual but noticed Goethean's civility had seriously deteriorated. I discussed one of his comments with him on the ANI. He admitted his comment was wrong but blamed North8000. Banning one editor will not improve the article. Some editors have been regular, nearly daily, contributors for almost three years. This includes Goethean and Xenophrenic. Not just North8000. And Goethean's and Xenophrenic's arguments and edit wars today are the same ones they had back in 2010. Goethean violates WP:PA and exhibits tendency towards WP:OWN. Xenophrenic violates WP:TE. The same sections, the same edits. Over and over. In the meantime, the article has not improved and working together to improve it doesn't seem to factor into talk page discussions. Banning one editor won't solve that. North8000 does not edit in a vacuum. Malke 2010 (talk) 18:41, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

I see insufficient justification for this remedy. Killer Chihuahua 08:21, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

this case is seeking sanctions only against those attempting to remove/minimize negative and trivial text according to weight, yet more active editors who have sought and succeeded to include negative material are absent here, why? since article is rated C, does that mean there needs to be more negative trivia, what was left out? i can think of no example of a negative passage has been successfully removed to date ex: neo-Klansmen and knuckle-dragging hillbillies (how does a verbal attack inform readers about the TP?), They are predominantly white, (the only movement in WP described as such, although the majority could be described the same), even less liked than Muslims and atheists, (is this not offensive to those groups?). Darkstar1st (talk) 12:24, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Darkstar1st, you are a party to this case. You may make any proposals you feel are indicated. If you think there are editors for whom sanctions would be appropriate remedies, who are not listed, by all means list them. I listed those I felt were appropriate, Malke 2010 listed those she thought were appropriate, and you may list those you think are appropriate. Your "why?" question can only be answered by you. Killer Chihuahua 12:48, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Your claims of neutrality ring a little hollow seeing as when I tried to add an article from a peer-reviewed public policy journal to the article, Arthur Rubin used every tendentious argument he could think up in order to remove the source. He was of course joined in this effort by North8000 and ~~Malke2010~~ Arzel, Darkstar1st, Collect, ThargorOrlando. And of course this journal said nothing about Klansmen or racism, it simply use good sources to analyze the financial sources of the organizations that funded the movement. — goethean 13:02, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Do you have difs of North8000, Arzel, Darkstar1st, Collect, ThargorOrlando joining? everything above is linking to AR?Darkstar1st (talk) 13:55, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Goethean, do you have diffs of me "joining this effort?" Because I just looked the tobacco threads over and I'm not seeing Malke there. My first edit to the talk page in a year was to the 'worst article ever' thread. Your tobacco study/source debate started the beginning of February. Unless you can come up with a diff that shows me "joining this effort," please strike your comment. Thank you. Malke 2010 (talk) 17:31, 26 March 2013 (UTC) 15:53, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

There is still good reason to believe that the article represents the views of the authors outside their particular field of expertise and outside the field of expertise of the journal (that field is the politics of the Tobacco industry, and the field of the statement made is the Tea Party). There is no reason to believe the statement Goethean originally added, attributing it to that article, was in the article, even though it was there for 2 months before being challenged. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:52, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Arthur, I will grant that you have basically shown reasonableness--though stopped short of actually acceding that Hunt is a reliable source--in disussions relating to sources after the AN/I case, and I am not here seeking bogus punitive blocks or bans for anyone. On the other hand, I have to reiterate my disagreement regarding the status of the authors of the tobacco industry article and the relationship of the article to the TPM.

The crux of the matter, the way I see it, is that the authors are indeed public health policy experts that have as one of their manifold focuses the tobacco industry, which has been exposed to be nefarious at least since the exposure of subliminal advertising techniques and misleading consumers about adverse health effects of which they were fully aware.

The status of the article as an RS for the TPM article can be summed up in terms that the research of the authors on the tobacco industry vis-a-vis public health has indirectly exposed a connection to the TPM, which is connected to groups funded to counter anti-smoke grass-roots organizations, and was fostered partly in relation to the issue of tobacco excise taxes as an issue that resonates with the overall anti-tax platform of the TPM.

There is nothing in that which would pose any sort of dilemma with respect to the authors writing outside of their field of expertise. So I found you reaction on the RSN, that is to say, shifting the basis of your opposition to the source as RS from a negation of the publication itself--which you seem to have acknowledged at one point--to a disqualification of the authors.

That seems to represent a trait resembling a battleground disposition.Ubikwit (talk) 14:15, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Geothean, what you described above (making it sound like the issue and effort was to "remove a source" is very misleading, at least with respect to your involvement of me. My core argument was that the material you were warring in was not even in the source, and not only wp:synth, but faulty synthesis at that. Here is my core comment "The text that you are trying to war in makes claims about the entire tea party movement, which is unsupported by even the cherry-picked sources and in fact in conflict with them. The text is in clear violation of wp:ver, and doubly so of wp:synth (not only is it synthesis, but it is faulty synthesis). And the additional source that you just provided reinforces that point. So mere presence of the material violates wp:ver and wp:synth, putting it in over such objection violates wp:burden, and trying to war it in makes it three-times-over problematic. " North8000 (talk) 17:50, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

North and Arthur, do you have any comment on topic banning Goethean and Xenophrenic? Because I think we're suppose to keep the comments to the relevant topic. Forgive me, but this seems like talk page stuff. Malke 2010 (talk) 19:16, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

To Ubikwit; ~~The~~ A problem with the article, is that editors (such as G and X) are willing to add any negative information about anyone or -thing associated with the TPm to the article, without establishing reliability, relevance, or appropriate weight. I've noticed a similar phenomenon in the Occupy articles (which I've given up on), in which any positive statement can be added without challenge, but negative entries are removed on sight. Some of the negative items there were overweighted, but one cannot honestly say that the mainstream news coverage of the Occupy movement is positive. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:26, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Maybe this is a TPM topic-specific feature that causes the turmoil to exceed the norm of what is encountered at other US politics articles. It seems to me that, in a sense, North is, in effect setting up a straw man by claiming that because the TP is a decentralized movement, one can't address it as a whole without being wrong with respect to one of the constitutive non-parts of a phantom whole.

That basically instantiates a scenario where editors not supportive of the TPM can only introduce piecemeal bits that address only one of the constitutive parts of the non-whole TPM.Ubikwit (talk) 18:13, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Your first point was not my intention when I said that it is really a phenomena rather than an entity. Its complicated, but my consistent them over the years at the article is that content (either pro or con is fine) should be informative at some higher level, dealing at the regional level, national level or regarding contests for elected offices. So one local guy's twitter comment would not be in there. North8000 (talk) 14:10, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

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Talk:TPm subthread on creating a subarticle on the fiscal issues

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Looking in detail at the first evidence field presented by Goethean under 2/23, at Talk:TPM; (No offense intended, but I will replace "Goethean" by "G", "Malke2010" by "M", "North8000" by "N", and "Arthur Rubin" by "AR" in my comments. I will not change quotes from other editors.)

G's analysis: Malke2010 suggests "new article about the fiscal issues".

AR's comment: Malke2010 suggests subarticle on about the fiscal issues, stating that "the new article wouldn't resemble the kluge that exists right now." That's not the usual reason for a WP:SPINOFF, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to create an NPOV subarticle of a POV article.
G's analysis: Goethean links to WP:POVFORK.

AR's comment: Yep; links, without explaining potential relevance.
G's analysis: Malke2010 says it would not be not a fork.

AR's comment: Accurate, but Malke2010's statement would also be accurate. It would be a WP:SPINOFF, assuming she would then replace the comments in the main article with an NPOV summary. There is no reason to believe otherwise.
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G's analysis: Goethean says that proposed new article would be the textbook definition of a POV fork.

AR's comment: G can accurately view his own statements, but it represents the textbook definition of a WP:SPINOFF.
G's analysis: Malke2010 says it would not be a fork.

AR's comment: See above
G's analysis: North8000 says Goethean violated WP:AGF.

AR's comment: I don't fully agree with N, but it's a reasonable hypothesis. G may merely be ignorant of WP:SPINOFF, although he states he has read WP:POVFORK.

— Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:55, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

As I said in my evidence, I've suggested a sub-article on fiscal policies of the TPM before. It's not a new suggestion and I've never intended nor suggested an editor should write a sub-article as a means to advance POV. I made a clarifying reply to Goethean that made it very clear what my intentions were.