Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 10:22, 12 May 2013

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Mughal Empire article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6Auto-archiving period: 3 months

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Template:WikiProject Mirza Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Afghanistan Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Afghanistan, a project to maintain and expand Afghanistan-related subjects on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.AfghanistanWikipedia:WikiProject AfghanistanTemplate:WikiProject AfghanistanAfghanistan Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. India: History Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.IndiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndiaTemplate:WikiProject IndiaIndia Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the Indian history workgroup (assessed as Mid-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Iran Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Iran, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to Iran on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please join the project where you can contribute to the discussions and help with our open tasks.IranWikipedia:WikiProject IranTemplate:WikiProject IranIran Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Central Asia Mid‑importance Mughal Empire is part of WikiProject Central Asia, a project to improve all Central Asia-related articles. This includes but is not limited to Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Mongolia, Tajikistan, Tibet, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Xinjiang and Central Asian portions of Iran, Pakistan and Russia, region-specific topics, and anything else related to Central Asia. If you would like to help improve this and other Central Asia-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.Central AsiaWikipedia:WikiProject Central AsiaTemplate:WikiProject Central AsiaCentral Asia Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Pakistan Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pakistan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Pakistan on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PakistanWikipedia:WikiProject PakistanTemplate:WikiProject PakistanPakistan Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Pakistani history. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Bangladesh Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bangladesh, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Bangladesh on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BangladeshWikipedia:WikiProject BangladeshTemplate:WikiProject BangladeshBangladesh Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. The article falls into the work area of the History workgroup of WikiProject Bangladesh WikiProject Bangladesh To-do list: edit history watch purge Add more images to Bangladesh Liberation War and related pages Clean up Climate change in Bangladesh, it needs a lot of work Clean up History of Bangladesh after independence, it needs NPOV Improve Bangladesh back to FA as it was demoted (see discussion) Improve Bengali language back to FA as it was demoted (see discussion) Improve Bengalis and related pages Take a look at the requested articles. Make a MRT line 3 article. Extend, add an infobox and a map of New Eskaton to New Eskaton. Former countries (inactive) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesFormer countries Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. South Asia Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject South Asia, which aims to improve the quality and status of all South Asia-related articles. For more information, please visit the Project page.South AsiaWikipedia:WikiProject South AsiaTemplate:WikiProject South AsiaSouth Asia Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the importance scale.

Archives

Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6

This page has archives. Sections older than 100 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.

News Alert

unconfirmed freely welcomed bias statement being allowed into this article: "The reign of Aurangzeb saw the enforcement of strict Muslim fundamentalism which caused rebellions among the Sikhs and Hindus."

Crescent used in the Mughal Empire

The Crescent and star symbol was used in the Mughal Empire, (note: the upward Crescent inlaid into the shield of the Mughal Emperor Shah Jahan).

The crescent and star on the shield is a piece of decoration with no particular symbolism for the empire as a whole. If you can find examples of Mughal documents where the crescent and the star are used to symbolize the authority of the emperor that would be stronger support. The crescent and the moon only came to symbolize Islam and Muslims at large in the 19th century when the Ottoman Empire was the last major independent Muslim state. The crescent and star took on the connotations of Islamic solidarity only in the 19th century. In fact the greatest proponents of the use of the crescent and moon as a symbol of Islam where westerners who wanted Islam to have a symbol like Christianity had the cross and Judaism (which was also knewly assigned the star of David as a "symbol" in the 19th century. In art the Mughals and other Muslims dynasties often used the sun, moon and stars symbolically, just as did Early Modern states in Europe, East Asia and Southeast Asia.

The very idea that the symbols on shield woud have some sort of vexillogical symbolism in the Mughal Empire is in itself incredibly anachronistic. Western heraldry did not exist in the Mughal Empire.

The Mughal Empire did not have a flag, it did not have an anthem, it was not symbolized by the crescent and the moon. That doesn't detract from the Empire in anyway, its just reality, to pretend the Empire had a "flag" is completely anachronistic. The Mughal Empire is a fascinating topic in itself, there is so much to learn about it in the sources that we have, we should not feel the need to create artificial symbols for it so that it allides with our modern understanding of what a state/empire should or should not have. Ahassan05 (talk) 03:25, 21 January 2013 (UTC)ahassan05

You are completely right.The so called flag is a a sort of historical revisionism being attempted by citizens of a specific country with fundamentalist agenda.It is unfortunate how a wikipedia page has become a battleground for such ideological pov pushing.Thanks for pointing that out. Skylark2008 (talk) 05:52, 26 March 2013 (UTC) Skylark 2008.

Crescent and star is ancient Turkic symbols

Well before the islam, Turks of Central Asia used it on their coins: Turkic coin (c. 600s)

Rulers of Mughal Empire was Turkic dynasty, founder by Babur who was great-grandson of Timur A Turkic ruler or Central Asia. Urdu, is a Turkic word 'ordu' means 'army', meaning language of ruling army. English word 'hurd' or 'horde' comes from that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ismet11 (talk • contribs) 02:03, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Inaccurate map.

The map is totally inaccurate and pov pushing.The Mughal empire was based in North West ,North and parts of Eastern India.It did ATTEMPT expansion into other parts but failed to have any lasting gains.The map pushes wartime temporary advances as actual gains.This is suspicious and gives the impression of manipulation of the page by fundamentalists of a certain community.To get an actual event based map of the entity ,please check out the website of UCLA,especially the article by V.Lal.Please correct this map as it paints a totally inaccurate picture of contemporary Indian polity by ignoring other equally important political powers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skylark2008 (talk • contribs) 14:15, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

The map notes that it represents the Empire under Aurangzeb in 1700. Indeed in 1700 the areas depicted on the map were integrated/being integrated into the Mughal Empire. Within a few decades areas under direct control of the Empire had severely decreased, but it is nonetheless an accurate depiction in 1700. It is the norm in these sorts of historical articles to use maps that show Empires when they are at their largest, so the standard map of the British Empire reflects its greatest extent post-World War I, the same goes for France, The German Empire is usually depicted right before World War I to show the maximum border for Cameroon and New Guinea. So by using a map of the Empire at its maximum reach this article is following the general pattern. We could add maps to show the Empire under Babur and Akbar to show the shifts in the maps if you would like. As for maps "depicting reality", most maps of European Empires are based on claims of power that do not necessarily reflect actual authority on the ground. For instance the Dutch East Indies map did not accurately reflect actual control on the ground on all islands until the mid-1920s, and then was lost in 1939, and yet from the 19th century through 1939 the Dutch East Indies is colored uniformly despite the existence of dozens of actually autonomous self-ruling entities. So there you have it. So we really need to change the way we depict all empires, states. Ahassan05 (talk) 03:37, 21 January 2013 (UTC)ahassan05

Thank you Ahassan-I appreciate your response and there is an element of truth there- but allow me to state-the map is inaccurate even if we take the ongoing expansion in 1700 into account.If anything the empire had failed to make any dent in extensive parts of Central India,Western India and Southern India.It had also lost to its former allies-the Rajputs of North India.If anything Aurangzeb's closing years were those of defeat and dismantling of the empire.He himself ,on his deathbed,in Ahmednagar,in the midst of an ONGOING campaign to occupy the area,mentioned his admission of defeat to the Marathas.I repeat that I understand your view and respect it.But the map is a gross eyesore.Please try to incorporate that other map you mentioned-at least that would be a bit better.Someone had a similar map up-but it was vandalized-I guess citizens from a neighboring country is at it-some kind of religious jingoism is at play here.However I trust your judgement and request you to put that other map in place.Also once that is put in,please lock the page as a LOT of vandalism goes on in the map section.I don't know how to lock it-please put that map in and arrange for it to be locked.Thank you. Skylark2008 (talk) 05:28, 26 March 2013 (UTC) Skylark2008

Maratha conquest

The Marathas had conquered most of the Mughal Empire and were finally defeated by the British and I believe that one line of that 'history' is important here (the 3rd battle of Panipat was only a minor setback).-Sabi fanai (talk) 23:43, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

And the map is GROSSLY inaccurate.Please help to change the opening map.It is a huge overestimation of the empire at the cost of all other contemporary political structures in South Asia.Thank you. Skylark2008 (talk) 05:30, 26 March 2013 (UTC) Skylark2008.

RfC: Iran in the Mughal Empire Map?

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following list: History and geography When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

An editor is trying to remove Iran from the info-box, with inappropriate reasoning as he did here, instead of discussion. So should Iran be included there? This Article is part of Wiki Project Iran, and during the reign of Aurangzeb, the Mughal empire even had parts of Iran, and was geographically extended to Iran. Here are some maps which support Iran's inclusion:

• 1
• 2
• 3

-Those maps don't actually have Iran in them- they don't appear detailed. I don't think Iran should be included in one of the nations conquered by the Mughals, because even if Aurangzeb had extended his rule, it only went further into Afghanistan and South Asia- not Iran. These maps aren't truly correct. By adding Iran in that list of countries, it practically is misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moonstone1889 (talk • contribs) 22:06, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose #1 doesn't support the claim at all; #'s 2 & 3 appear to show the Mughal Empire extending into Iran, but don't, on their own, constitute reliable sources. Is there better evidence for this claim? siafu (talk) 04:52, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
• Support They constitute reliable sources and present day Iran's geographic boundaries are evident from the maps provided. Faizan -Let's talk! 07:49, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose for now. A map published in a reliable source which shows both the borders of the Mughal Empire and the modern states would have been convincing, but the maps provided so far are not detailed at all. One has to first trace the borders of the modern states and then make a decision on whether or not Iran's modern borders and the Mughal Empire's borders overlap. Regardless of how obvious a conclusion may seem to some, that's original research, pure and simple (and that it is being contested makes its inclusion even less justified). On the other hand, if someone finds a reliable source which explicitly states that a part of modern Iran falls within the borders of the ancient Mughal Empire, I'll be happy to switch to support. (I did a cursory search and found nothing, but that of course doesn't mean that there is nothing to be found).—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); April 26, 2013; 15:10 (UTC)

Oppose- I agree-there should not be a map that includes Iran as also vast areas of South Asia-such as West,Central,Eastern and North-Eastern India as also Nepal and Bhutan within the map.The map at the opening section is GROSSLY wrong and needs to be fixed ASAP to conform to wikipedia standards.It seems that certain interest groups from Pakistan have started to use this page to push POV agendas based on their fantasy. Skylark2008 (talk) 17:56, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Skylark2008.

Edits by User:Srkris

His edits like 1 and 2 were without a summary! Please read WP:ES. Constantly added Non-Neutral content there without reliable sources. Please refrain from such edits. Faizan -Let's talk! 10:22, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• All unassessed articles
• B-Class Afghanistan articles
• Top-importance Afghanistan articles
• WikiProject Afghanistan articles
• B-Class India articles
• Top-importance India articles
• B-Class India articles of Top-importance
• B-Class Indian history articles
• Mid-importance Indian history articles
• B-Class Indian history articles of Mid-importance
• WikiProject Indian history articles
• WikiProject India articles
• B-Class Iran articles
• Mid-importance Iran articles
• WikiProject Iran articles
• B-Class Central Asia articles
• Mid-importance Central Asia articles
• WikiProject Central Asia articles
• B-Class Pakistan articles
• Top-importance Pakistan articles
• WikiProject Pakistani history articles
• WikiProject Pakistan articles
• B-Class Bangladesh articles
• Top-importance Bangladesh articles
• Help of History Workgroup of Bangladesh needed
• WikiProject Bangladesh articles
• B-Class South Asia articles
• Top-importance South Asia articles
• South Asia articles
• Misplaced Pages requests for comment