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Revision as of 11:56, 7 August 2013 editZythe (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers30,859 edits →James Dean article← Previous edit Revision as of 11:58, 7 August 2013 edit undoZythe (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers30,859 edits →James Dean articleNext edit →
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:I feel quite strongly about it. The weight of evidence is compelling: he was definitely gay.] (]) 11:06, 7 August 2013 (UTC) :I feel quite strongly about it. The weight of evidence is compelling: he was definitely gay.] (]) 11:06, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
::Hey, Zythe. As always, thanks for weighing in. I'm not sure how you feel that he was definitely gay, though. I mean, it seems he had a clear sexual interest in women...unless that was an act. There are claims that he was gay. There are claims that he was bisexual. There are claims that he was actually heterosexual and was only ]. Needless to say, this is why I had him removed from the bisexual category years ago...because his sexual orientation/sexuality is not clear-cut and is a significant matter of debate among people who knew him, media and scholars. Here's a quick link to the aforementioned discussion that led to removing him from the bisexual category: ] (2009). And here is a discussion from 2012 about how to improve/format that article, which also includes the matter of covering his debated sexual orientation/sexuality: ]; given that a lot of what is in that sandbox is a better James Dean article, it should be integrated into the article...though it should be cleaned up first. ] (]) 11:22, 7 August 2013 (UTC) ::Hey, Zythe. As always, thanks for weighing in. I'm not sure how you feel that he was definitely gay, though. I mean, it seems he had a clear sexual interest in women...unless that was an act. There are claims that he was gay. There are claims that he was bisexual. There are claims that he was actually heterosexual and was only ]. Needless to say, this is why I had him removed from the bisexual category years ago...because his sexual orientation/sexuality is not clear-cut and is a significant matter of debate among people who knew him, media and scholars. Here's a quick link to the aforementioned discussion that led to removing him from the bisexual category: ] (2009). And here is a discussion from 2012 about how to improve/format that article, which also includes the matter of covering his debated sexual orientation/sexuality: ]; given that a lot of what is in that sandbox is a better James Dean article, it should be integrated into the article...though it should be cleaned up first. ] (]) 11:22, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
:::Well, I wasn't splitting hairs about gay/bi (often this is an impossible behavioural distinction, and gay works as an umbrella term). Bast very convincingly indicates that he had a primary interest in men with at least a number of beards, in addition to some (earlier) heterosexual affairs, which is unusual. But this is my personal conviction, and I wouldn't put this forward in arguing for a specific LGBT quadrant category. It ought to be uncontroversial to say he was LGBT, however.] (]) 11:56, 7 August 2013 (UTC) :::Well, I wasn't splitting hairs about gay/bi (often this is an impossible behavioural distinction, and gay works as an umbrella term). More recent sources, such as later works by Bast, very convincingly indicate that he had a primary interest in men with at least a number of beards, in addition to some (earlier) heterosexual affairs, which is unusual. He was clearly a beneficiary of the casting couch, sure, but it does not seem to me he was gay-for-pay. But this is my personal conviction, and I wouldn't put this forward in arguing for a specific LGBT quadrant category. It ought to be uncontroversial to say he was LGBT, however.] (]) 11:56, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

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Help needed on another Wiki

Some of us have been working for some time on the LGBT History Project. This is a Wiki devoted specifically to LGBT history in the United Kingdom. We use similar approaches to Misplaced Pages, the main difference being that we have a much more relaxed standard of notability. In general, if there's information recorded about a UK LGBT-related subject we would seek to have an article for it. This of course means that we are often obliged to rely on less reliable sources than would be appropriate for Misplaced Pages. Part of the aim, as our "time capsule" logo suggests, is to capture information about LGBT organisations and venues before it disappears, and a number of our articles rely on archived versions of obsolete websites. Of course we also harvest information from Misplaced Pages for better-known subjects. Apologies if all this is seen as severely off-topic, but if any editors with an interest in British LGBT matters would be interested in contributing to a rather different project we'd be happy to hear from you. --rossb (talk) 17:04, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Ernestine Eckstein

I pulled a somewhat essayish draft out of AfC for Ernestine Eckstein, who seems notable and interesting, but whipping the article into a neutral encyclopedic state is going to take a little more work. Anyone who wants to lend a hand is invited to. Thanks. --j⚛e decker 23:52, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Hefemale

The title Hefemale which currently redirects to the trans man article has been nominated at RfD. The nomination originally received no comments and so has been relisted at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2013 July 10#Hefemale where your contribution is invited. Thryduulf (talk) 11:37, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Aesthetic Realism

Hello. I think members of this project should be aware of a situation that has arisen at the Aesthetic Realism article. The article concerns a movement that is notorious for once having attempted to convert gay men and lesbians to heterosexuality. It contained the following unsourced, obviously controversial assertion: "Some men who began to study to change from homosexuality discontinued their study. Others, who at one time stated they had changed, later decided to live a gay lifestyle. Still others indicate that the change from homosexuality they first experienced in the 1970s and 80s is authentic and continues to the present day." Since that had no source, and seems to violate WP:VERIFY and WP:NPOV, I removed it. Unfortunately, another editor restored that text (and in fact reverted all my edits to the article) simply because I didn't discuss my changes on talk first.

I consider restoring unsourced, controversial material about efforts to change sexual orientation to be highly inappropriate. Could project members please take a look at this situation and comment on the article's talk page? FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 22:02, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Erastes

Erastes (author) has been listed for prod; she's a writer whose article does have sourcing problems, but who has been a nominee for the Lambda Literary Awards. If anybody can help get it up to snuff or cares to comment in the discussion at Talk:Erastes (author), some help would be appreciated. Bearcat (talk) 23:42, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

OutServe-SLDN

An IP user has proposed OutServe-SLDN for deletion and done so ineptly. Those interested might want to have a look. 166.186.168.8 (talk) 22:31, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Hm...a merge might be appropriate? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 23:31, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

A merge of what? The entries for OutServe and SLDN have already been merged. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 00:40, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I think I misunderstood (was used to SLDN being its own article so thought this was a different one). –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:02, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Miss Vera's Finishing School for Boys Who Want to Be Girls (book)

A discussion has been started on whether the article on this book should be merged with the (largely identical) article on the school. Input from members of this project are welcome. Thanks. --Randykitty (talk) 16:27, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Should Malcolm X: A Life of Reinvention be tagged as LGBT-related?

Please see Talk:Malcolm_X:_A_Life_of_Reinvention#LGBT Tag WhisperToMe (talk) 07:16, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Sexual orientation/sexual identity discussions with regard to categorizing LGBT people

Hello, everyone. I saw the Misplaced Pages talk:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality#Privileging words over thoughts and deeds: attraction vs identity vs behaviour in sexual orientation discussion yesterday and decided that one or more of you may be interested in weighing in on it. Bearcat, a member of this LGBT project, has already. I am also interested in weighing in on it, but some of what I would have stated has essentially already been stated by those opposing the editor's proposal (the editor who started that discussion), and I'd rather not get into a debate about this. I waited until today to notify this project of it because I was both busy and lazy yesterday, and also wanted to see how things developed on that discussion matter. As for the other discussion, that is Talk:Jodie Foster#Redo consensus; it's currently closed, but any one of you may want to re-open that discussion or start a new one about that topic. For the record, I don't see the problem with putting Foster in the LGBT category. Flyer22 (talk) 21:12, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

More eyes needed at Talk:Homosexuality

There is a current discussion under way that may need more editor attention. It appears a new editor (possibly a single purpose account) has begun a discussion about violence to the LGBT community and is stating the article is intentionally misleading.--Amadscientist (talk) 21:54, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Update:That SPA account made a legal threat and was blocked, socked and both blocked indef. User:PaleCloudedWhite became upset with me when I suggested that their proposal to change the header of Homosexuality#Violence against gays and lesbians to "Hate Crimes" to reflect what they believed the FBI source being questioned by the SPA/Sock was about. User:Bb23 also agreed with this but I was not convinced and continued to oppose this suggestion as I felt it narrowed the scope of the section to a US centric legislative subjects. That would mean only things that were actual hate crimes could be there and we are no longer talking about the history of violence to the LGBT community. I aslo objected because the section is a summary of a main article that may have been split from this one and I feel it inappropriate to rename sections like that over single source in the summary. User:PaleCloudedWhite accused me of calling them homophobic, took this project off their watch list and left the discussion. I have responded in no uncertain terms. I think it a good idea if another editor approach them to see what their concerns are because I am afraid I will just freak out back at them over this.--Amadscientist (talk) 06:44, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

RfC on Gary North

Question: Regarding two of the subsections in Gary North (economist) -- which describe his views (in part regarding his alleged hatred of, and alleged desire to stone to death, homosexuals, but contain original rather than secondary sources – are they proper? Please see the discussion here. Steeletrap (talk) 05:39, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Benvenuto Cellini

Can somebody here put it on your watch list? An unnamed editor keeps removing the categories. I don't want to have to buy into arguments about Cellini's sexuality. Dealing with Leonardo and Michelangelo are sufficient. Amandajm (talk) 06:04, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Question about categorization

I posted a long comment at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_LGBT_studies/Guidelines#Deceased_LGBT_.28.3F.29_people and it said to cross post it here. I hope to get some guidance about placing historical figures in LGBT categories. Newjerseyliz (talk) 21:09, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Mass deletion of categories - Repairing

It's just been found that a number of categories in use by this project were created by a sockpuppet of a blocked user, so User:Ronhjones has had to delete them. However, it looks like a number of them were very useful, so one may want to look through these deletions and re-create/re-categorize. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:52, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

I really don't understand why he had to delete them; it's not mandatory that banned users' edits must be deleted if they're beneficial to the encyclopedia. It's also really annoying that he just removed the categories from articles without upmerging them into the categories that remain.
Anyway, the categories that he deleted are:
I'm not suggesting all these categories should be automatically recreated, but some of them definitely need to exist. Please feel free to annotate the list above with comments and ideas on specific categories. - htonl (talk) 22:50, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
The deletions have caused a heck of a mess. I've checked several, and no articles have been put back into the category they were originally in before the sock came along. I can understand wanting to have a strict policy against socking, but we've cut off our nose to spite our face here.--Trystan (talk) 22:56, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
And there's a whole lot more awaiting imminent deletion at Category:Candidates for speedy deletion as having been created by blocked or banned users. I've mentioned on User talk:Nymf (he's the one who did the nominating) about this problem of the categories getting deleted without appropriate recategorization. - htonl (talk) 23:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
Several of these categories have been used by users other than sock, which would disqualify them from G5 speedy deletion. Given the very short time in which the entire batch was nominated, I do not think any checking was done regarding who has been using these categories; everything created by the sock has been put on the chopping block regardless of what use has been made of it in the last 10 months.--Trystan (talk) 00:02, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
Is it considered proper to remove the CSD (and take responsibility for the category in whatever ceremonial form is called for)? I mean, another one is Category:Jewish American actors, it's huge! Obviously one should not sockpuppet, but re-creating and repopulating all of these will be a huge time sink for productive users too. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 00:55, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
I nominated all of those categories in a go as the user was just caught socking, yet again, and I had enough of it. I was going to nominate them for deletion 10 months ago, but never had the energy then. These things needs to be dealt with vehemently, but as they haven't been for over 2 years, the user knows that he can return to socking and get away with it.
My 2 cents is that you should re-categorize rather than re-create, for the benefit of the Misplaced Pages project itself. Nymf (talk) 19:46, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
No, that's a poor decision. It is the behavior of socking that is the problem, not the fact of categorizing Jewish American actors together or subdividing gay villages by country. Allowing them not to be deleted, if claimed by legitimate users, is the best solution - recreating and repopulating is extremely tedious, but still results in proper categorization - putting a black mark on these categories forever is foolish. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:57, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
I concur. Not all categorization is bad. It would have been better to nominate them for deletion or merging at CFD and let those there decide if they were worth keeping.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:27, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
By not deleting the categories, we legitimize the behavior of the sock puppets. That is very bad, and lets the user know that he can get away with it, as long as he is adamant. Point in case: the user is already back, blanking templates for the categories to stay. Nymf (talk) 21:54, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
But the reason socking is bad is because it's damaging to the encyclopedia and to the process of building an encyclopedia. Blocking socks is a means to an end, not an end in itself - by prioritizing this sockpuppet over good categorization practice, you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 23:20, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
If a sock's work can be cleanly and promptly excised, I'm all for it. But these categories have been around for nearly a year, and have been reviewed and used by other users. I think we are well past the point of pulling these particular threads out of the cloth.--Trystan (talk) 22:46, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
The scorched earth anti-sock policy continues, including the loss of Category:LGBT parenting and many others. User:Diannaa has deleted several, again with no upmerging or replacing the categories that were there before the sock came along. I have no idea what, if any, tools are available to make tracking and reverting this kind of widespread, reckless, and destructive editing feasible.
To the extent that this teaches the sock a lesson, it's that they can cause an amazing amount of chaos and widespread decategorization, as we are now in a much worse position category-wise than we were before the sock ever came along.--Trystan (talk) 18:09, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
What the fuck is all this. It's hard enough keeping homophobic editors from removing clear-cut historical LGBTs (and even living, out LGBTs) from appropriate categories - the sheer amount of work that needs to be done to undo this catastrophic decision hurts my head to contemplate.Zythe (talk) 21:07, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
I noticed this edit by Bearcat which appears to be cleanup of some of this mess, and I noticed he had done dozens of similar edits - thank you, Bearcat, your work was noticed and appreciated.  :) Maybe you could advise us on the mess described in this thread? EdChem (talk) 21:49, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, this is my fault. I assumed that because the nominations were done by a trusted long-term user that the deletions should proceed. I will help with the clean-up. I will start by re-creating Category:Fictional bisexual females and restoring its contents using information from my deletion logs and contribs. -- Diannaa (talk) 22:05, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
Next I will do Category:LGBT entertainers from the United States -- Diannaa (talk) 22:42, 4 August 2013 (UTC) Actually, Bearcat has dealt with that group by placing them in Category:LGBT people from the United States. So I think i had better wait for instructions as to what you want me to do next. -- Diannaa (talk) 22:50, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I did catch as much as I could of what happened yesterday, but unfortunately I'm not able to guarantee that I caught everything. For what it's worth, although I've also directly deleted some of Rafiki's categories in the past, I do typically make sure to upmerge the entries back into a parent category before deleting the category — but I do recognize that my status as an administrator does enable me to do that in a way that a regular editor might not have access to.

It's not necessarily a requirement to recreate every deleted category wholesale, however — part of what got Rafiki banned in the first place was that he had a persistent habit of splitting any and all "LGBT" categories he came across into four separate quadrant-specific gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender subcategories, without regard to whether that was warranted or not. So some of the categories listed above do not need to be recreated; however, whenever possible the articles that were in those categories should be refiled in common "LGBT" categories instead of recreating quadrant-specific ones. And as noted, I did try to catch as many former "LGBT entertainers from the United States" as I could, and refiled them back into the existing Category:LGBT people from the United States (where they were before the entertainer-specific subcategory was created) instead of recreating the deleted category, if they weren't already in another subcategory such as Category:LGBT African Americans or Category:LGBT writers from the United States. I can't guarantee that I caught everybody, however, although I can't think off the top of my head of any obvious people that I missed. I see, however, that the category has since been recreated — and accordingly, the people can be moved back into it again.

One thing it's important to keep in mind is that even banned users who created a lot of bad stuff can still occasionally hit on something valid and useful anyway, and it also doesn't mean that the category becomes permanently banned from ever being recreated again even by an editor in good standing. I would suggest that as much as possible, regular editors should list categories created by banned users for CFD rather than speedy, precisely so that we can prevent things like this from happening — because editors should have the option of being able to say "actually this category is useful enough that we should keep it anyway" and/or "make sure that the closure involves upmerging the articles to this parent category rather than just decatting them". Or alternatively, if it's important to strip the banned user from the edit history, one could delete the category and then recreate it under their own name so that it has a valid user behind it instead.

To be perfectly frank, this was a major f*ck*p that should not have happened in the way that it did. I do recognize that the practice of deleting a banned user's contributions comes from a place of rational intentions — however, we all have to make every effort to ensure that we don't accidentally create another massive problem in the process as happened here. Although I'm relieved that there is an effort underway to fix it, we need to make absolutely sure that nothing like this ever happens again. I'm not going to blame any specific user, as both Nymf and Diannaa quite clearly acted in good faith according to the rules — but if two good faith actions combine into a massive disaster like this, there's clearly a flaw of some kind in the process. Bearcat (talk) 05:51, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks so much for your help cleaning up, Bearcat. I can guarantee that I personally will not do anything like this ever again. I am very sorry to have caused so much trouble. -- Diannaa (talk)
I made a bold edit here per Bearcat, your thoughts welcome. Misplaced Pages:Banning_policy#Edits_by_and_on_behalf_of_banned_editors. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:34, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
"Should" essentially becomes a loophole for socks to go wild creating categories, since the process of bringing something to CFD can be quite tedious. Perhaps the wording could be changed to "consider"? I recognize the problem with G5:ing some of these categories, but as a whole this is a rather unique case, as 99% of the blocked socks are not as adamant and long-winded as RafikiSykes. Nymf (talk) 18:15, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
I'll agree with Nymf here — there are indeed going to be cases where it's appropriate to be cautious and take it to CFD for the reasons that showed up here, but even so there are still going to be some other cases where the category is just a no-brainer delete that isn't going to cause actual problems. So it would indeed be better to word that as a possibility to consider rather than as an absolute rule with no exceptions. Obviously useless categories (e.g. Category:Redheaded people with extra toes and a mole on their cheek) can still be speedied without needing special treatment, and ones that have an explicit consensus against them (e.g. Rafiki's persistent filtering of common LGBT categories into quadrant-specific subcategories) should still be speedied as long as the articles are reupped to a parent — there are certainly circumstances where CFD should be preferred over speedy, but that doesn't have to be the default option in every case. Bearcat (talk) 18:35, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
I'm not well versed on the quadrant-ization (or lack thereof) standards here. Perhaps you could write up a LGBT-categories guidance esp the rules around quadrants and place it at WP:EGRS? In any case, per the language wording, can we move that policy discussion here: Wikipedia_talk:Banning_policy#Proposed_changes_re:_category_deletion_of_banned_users. FWIW, I would be ok with softening the language to give examples of things that should be speedied, vs things that need proper merging and/or discussion. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:32, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
I have actually done so in the past, for the record, but within days another user removed it again on the basis that they didn't personally agree with the consensus position, and then proceeded to attack me as a "bad faith" editor for the next several weeks in every single CFD discussion where we crossed paths whether it had anything to do with the EGRS guideline or not — so while I'd certainly like to readd it, I'm not willing to do so without backup. At any rate, the actual consensus is that quadrantization is only allowed in a few specific cases (writers, politicians, musicians, actors) where common "LGBT" categories would be populated in the thousands, but not in cases where a common "LGBT" category still only has one or two pages' worth of entries — and that in any case where it doesn't already exist, it cannot be implemented without explicitly seeking a consensus at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject LGBT to allow that specific new situation. Bearcat (talk) 20:02, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
Let's start a new discussion over there on language to be added. I would support more or less what you outline above.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Is the list above a complete list of the categories that were deleted? Let's make sure that we know exactly what has to be fixed. (Personally, this issue came to my notice when Category:Gay non-fiction books was removed from a page on my watchlist, and no upmerge has yet happened; likewise Category:LGBT parenting.) –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:54, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
    • Relatedly, have all the users who were involved in decategorizing commented here? If we can look through their contributions, we can find out which articles were decategorized so that we can restore them with a minimum of toil. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:56, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
      • I can't say for sure who worked on it. It might be best to post at WP:AN and/or WP:ANI to see if there was anyone else. In addition to myself, User:Ronhjones did some for sure. He deleted quite a few, and some of them were done as early as July 2. Checking his deletion logs, I found he deleted the following 65 categories: -- Diannaa (talk) 22:13, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Ronhjones

Extended content

I worked on it only in August. I first depopulated the category and then deleted the category. So in my case, matching up the preceding contribs to the matching log entry will reveal what the contents of each category was at the time of deletion. A couple categories were empty when I arrived, and that's how I realised that another person was working on it simultaneously. Here's a list of the 94 that I did: -- Diannaa (talk) 22:13, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Diannaa

Extended content

Bearcat, thanks for your continued input and assistance. Diannaa, thanks for recognising and admitting a mistake and contributing to the clean up. On quadrantisation, it seems to me to be appropriate in the pornography area, porn actors are not in LGBT porn, but rather in gay, straight, bi, lesbian, trans, ... porn. On the deletions, I note that Ronhjones, who deleted many categories, apparently got bored with upmerging.  :( I have requested an explanation. EdChem (talk) 22:18, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to second EdChem in thanking Bearcat and Diannnaa for their work here.--Trystan (talk) 13:32, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
I got bored waiting for AWB to respond - my connection is OK, but not the fastest, and sometimes AWB just seems to pause for ages - when it did that for several minutes I aborted, and decided to either try next day or let someone else have a turn. If you want me to run through my contribution list and rollback the edits, then just leave me a note.  Ronhjones  16:16, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Persistant disruptive edits on articles labeled "LGBT People from Italy"

Three months ago, the same user began to make systematic disruptive edits from different computers on Benvenuto Cellini, Poliziano, Torquato Tasso and Lucio Dalla among others.

The different IPs used by this person, probably Guido Lonchile (talk · contribs), are, for the more recent ones :

217.203.129.136 (talk · contribs), 95.74.248.0 (talk · contribs) and 109.52.145.74 (talk · contribs) for Torquato Tasso

217.203.139.73 (talk · contribs), 95.75.19.58 (talk · contribs)and 109.52.145.74 (talk · contribs) for Benvenuto Cellini

95.74.240.181 (talk · contribs), 217.203.139.73 (talk · contribs), 109.54.162.138 (talk · contribs) and B. River (talk · contribs), specifically created on this purpose for Poliziano.

Isn't it possible to block that person or to protect these articles ? Frimoussou (talk) 22:36, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Bearcat has protected the articles and range blocks are currently being contemplated. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Persistant disruptive edits on articles labeled "LGBT People from Italy" -- Diannaa (talk) 14:24, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Could someone please enlighen me?

Hi there :) Could someone please check http://en.wikipedia.org/Kinky_Lifestyle and let me know why it qualifies for speedy deletion? The author stated he works on adding english ref. - as far as I can see the german refs (incl. a german newspaper) proove the significance, which I also feel stated within the article itself. - as for advertising maybe someone here has an edit proposal? (pers. I don't consider it advertisment) - any insight would be really appreciated, cause I'm kinda baffled esp. when comparing this one to other bdsm organizations' articles.--YahZila (talk) 21:04, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Since it's now gone - thx for nothing, I guess :( --YahZila (talk) 07:28, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Garbo

There is currently a discussion at Talk:Greta Garbo#LGBT stuff - again (it's hard to miss, as it's currently the only discussion on the page). I participated briefly in a sub-discussion about synthesis, and have advised the current principal editor of the article on technical issues in the past, but am myself a bit confused as to what is considered acceptable in this area (i.e., what constitutes a "documented, notable relationship"). Could someone from this project take a look and offer an opinion regarding the appropriateness of the current article content and the recently removed (unrelated to the mass-deletions discussion above) LGBT-related categories? TIA. Fat&Happy (talk) 23:35, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

James Dean article

Can I get some comments/more eyes on this matter from this project with regard to the James Dean article? Like I stated in that edit summary, I don't feel strongly about this matter (Dean being in the LGBT category). And I am the one who had Dean removed from the bisexual category years ago, as that hidden note points to. But it seems justifiable to have him in the LGBT category for reasons Bearcat and I stated in this discussion at the Misplaced Pages:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality talk page. By linking his username now, I also invite Light show, who removed the category before I reverted him, to discuss this. I see that he is also discussing a LGBT matter with regard to the Greta Garbo article. Flyer22 (talk) 03:25, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

And I see that he has now reverted me, which I left a note about, and he has commented on my talk page. So, yes, outside input on this James Dean matter would help. Flyer22 (talk) 03:45, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
I feel quite strongly about it. The weight of evidence is compelling: he was definitely gay.Zythe (talk) 11:06, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
Hey, Zythe. As always, thanks for weighing in. I'm not sure how you feel that he was definitely gay, though. I mean, it seems he had a clear sexual interest in women...unless that was an act. There are claims that he was gay. There are claims that he was bisexual. There are claims that he was actually heterosexual and was only gay-for-pay. Needless to say, this is why I had him removed from the bisexual category years ago...because his sexual orientation/sexuality is not clear-cut and is a significant matter of debate among people who knew him, media and scholars. Here's a quick link to the aforementioned discussion that led to removing him from the bisexual category: Talk:James Dean/Archive 2#Category:Bisexual actors? (2009). And here is a discussion from 2012 about how to improve/format that article, which also includes the matter of covering his debated sexual orientation/sexuality: Talk:James Dean/Archive 2#Recent article revision from sandbox; given that a lot of what is in that sandbox is a better James Dean article, it should be integrated into the article...though it should be cleaned up first. Flyer22 (talk) 11:22, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
Well, I wasn't splitting hairs about gay/bi (often this is an impossible behavioural distinction, and gay works as an umbrella term). More recent sources, such as later works by Bast, very convincingly indicate that he had a primary interest in men with at least a number of beards, in addition to some (earlier) heterosexual affairs, which is unusual. He was clearly a beneficiary of the casting couch, sure, but it does not seem to me he was gay-for-pay. But this is my personal conviction, and I wouldn't put this forward in arguing for a specific LGBT quadrant category. It ought to be uncontroversial to say he was LGBT, however.Zythe (talk) 11:56, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
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