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2005 - March 2008

Subsequent Research

An editor added the following section. I moved it here for discussion, for the following reasons:

1. It was in the wrong location in the article, and had the wrong section level.
2. The tone is unencyclopedic: Phrases such as "not afraid" and "heresy" suggest problems in the comment, as well as of the Guardian article itself.
3. It's not clear to me that has not been refuted further. In any case, if it (was) "to appear in Inflammation Research", we should use that article as the reference, rather than The Guardian.

— Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:12, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Ennis' article in Inflammation Research was already cited in the article, I have added the Guardian source to it. --Enric Naval (talk) 16:16, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Subsequent Research

An article in the "The Guardian" brought new evidence to Dr. Jacques Benveniste’s original experiment in “Thanks for the Memory Experiments have backed what was once a scientific ‘heresy’ says Lionel Milgrom." Professor Madeleine Ennis of Queen's University Belfast didn't believe that a medicinal compound diluted out of existence should still exert a therapeutic effect and was an affront to conventional biochemistry and pharmacology, based as they are on direct and palpable molecular events. The same goes for a possible explanation of how homoeopathy works: that water somehow retains a "memory" of things once dissolved in it. Professor Ennis who, being a scientist, was not afraid to try to prove Benveniste wrong. So, more than a decade after Benveniste's excommunication from the scientific mainstream, she jumped at the chance to join a large pan-European research team, hoping finally to lay the Benveniste "heresy" to rest. But she was in for a shock: for the team's latest results controversially now suggest that Benveniste might have been right all along. The result, shortly to be published in Inflammation Research, was the same: histamine solutions, both at pharmacological concentrations and diluted out of existence, lead to statistically significant inhibition of basophile activation by aIgE, confirming previous work in this area. http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2001/mar/15/technology2

Contradictory account of retraction

This comment seems contradictory: "Maddox was unapologetic, stating 'I'm sorry we didn't find something more interesting.'" To me, saying you're sorry constitutes an apology. Verberate (talk) 21:40, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

That's not an apology, that's another way of phrasing "I would have really liked to find something more interesting". --Enric Naval (talk) 23:04, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Resistance to mention of support

Hi there. Since this article is largely about the controvesy surrounding this claim, it seems bizarre that no mention of any supportive views is made in the lead. I agree that the claim probably has no basis in science, but it is nevertheless not without supporters. I disagree with the statement that 'Support of B is rare'; I would imagine that most homeopaths would be quite supportive. Judging by the size of the homeopathy market, the opinion is also widespread in the general population. The lead goes into a lot of detail outlining the opposition in the scientific community, so it seems to me that not mentioning supportive positions at all contravenes NPOV, especially if the rest of the article declares a 'controversy'. I frankly do not see how opposition is more notable than support and is therefore the only opinion allowed in the lead. I also do not think that Luc Montagnier is generally seen as a 'discredited "scientist"' just because some of his more recent publications and views are a little on the odd side. The statement 'Citing discredited "scientists" should be explicitly mentioned as that, appears to be actual science, which it's not! (

Can you cite sources which show that a non-negligible portion of respected scientists support homeopathy? Your addition is being reverted because you're making claims which are unsourced (and counter to the sources we do have). Also, please stop edit warring. Thank you.   — Jess· Δ♥ 17:42, 16 August 2011

(UTC)

I am not claiming that a large minority of scientists support the claim of water memory. I am claiming that water memory is almost unanimously rejected by the scientific community. The original phrase implied total and unanimous absence of acceptance, but there is nothing in the two cited references that supports this (in case I have missed this I do apologize, but I could not find it). My claim of general rejection is therefore supported by the sources, whereas total non-acceptance is not. There may be a consensus within the community, but that is distinct from the community itself. The claim of unanimous rejection is easily refuted by the existence of prominent adherents within the scientic community (e.g. Brian Josephson and Luc Montagnier). Also, reverting to enforce overriding policies is not edit warring. In this case, the original claim is not supported by the cited sources. If you can find a reference for total non-acceptance, please insert it. In the meantime I will change the phrase to 'rejected by the scientific consensus'. I don't really have a ref to back that up either, but at least we're not leaning out of the window quite as far... Rainbowwrasse (talk) 19:54, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

AFAIK, it is unanimous, except for a fringe minority, which per policy does not warrant any coverage in the article. Please read those two policies I just linked (WP:FRINGE and WP:Weight). To demonstrate that the minority support warrants coverage, you'd have to provide sources which show that the support is substantial or notable. I'll also note that you're still edit warring, despite warnings. Please stop.   — Jess· Δ♥ 21:15, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

There is no indication that it is unanimous, and the fact that notable proponents exist within the community demonstrates this. That fact will not go away simply because you or I do not like it. The two policies you linked are very clear; please read them. It's interesting how you define any ever-so-slight deviation from your opinion as edit warring, seems very convenient. My latest edit is simply more accurate the previous statement, and gives no undue weight to the (scientific) minority view. How could this possibly be a problem? Rainbowwrasse (talk) 21:38, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

You still have not provided any sources which demonstrate that the minority view is significant enough to warrant any coverage. I'm very clearly not "defining deviations from my opinion as edit warring". I'm defining edit warring as continually reverting other editors, as it is defined in WP:EW, and as you keep doing. You're at 10 reversions now. You need to hash out changes to the section on the talk page first, before reverting other editors. You have no consensus for any change to the wording, and as such, I'd suggest you revert to the version which does have consensus, until a new one is formed.   — Jess· Δ♥ 00:38, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

What a happy coincidence, I too am defining edit warring as continually reverting other editors, as it is defined in WP:EW, and as you keep doing. Except that I have on multiple occasions demonstrated that the previous statement was not supported by the cited sources (or reality). You on the other hand limit your discussion to saying 'No!' without providing arguments to support your view or demonstrating any desire for discussion. Please provide arguments to support your view, and notice that consensus is not necessary if one of the parties has not provided supporting arguments or participated in a discussion. I may also have made ten edits to the page, but only a fraction of those were reversions, whereas all of your were. I invited discussion on the talk page, but all of my edits (except the ones that support your views, of course) were reverted without further comment. Please stop trying to monopolize this article. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 08:53, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't know what else to say. This is degrading rather quickly. You are attempting to make a change to the article which includes minority support of the topic. We need sources showing that it is not a negligible minority view to do that. Until you provide sources, there's no discussion we can have. Claiming I was "editing warring more than you" is silly. You were reverted by multiple editors, multiple times. If you want clarification on WP:EW, you're welcome on my talk page. For now, we need sources to make your change, and there's little more to do until we have them.   — Jess· Δ♥ 15:31, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I am getting very tired of this. You simply keep reiterating your claim that I need to show that there is more than negligible support. I have provided sources for this (Luc Montagnier, and the original source listing a number of researchers); so far you have not provided a single source to back up your claim, in spite of me inviting you to do so multiple times. The only reason we are not having a discussion is that you are failing to engage in any meaningful way. I can only conclude that this is because you do not actually have anything to back up your opinion, or you are unwilling to provide that information. I really do not see why you think that the insertion of the word 'generally' (which really isn't a huge concession) provides any minority support. It instead implies overwhelming consensus against the claim of water memory. I had included Luc Montagnier as one of the few notable exceptions, not to add support to the idea. Apart from that it would be perfectly permissible to state that the claim is widely supported by homeopaths, as it is one of the main rationalizations for it. It is the majority view in that case, why was this deleted as well? I understand that you don't like homeopathy and think it's load of rubbish (as do I), but it's hardly a fringe thing (e.g in the UK). I can't help but think that your hard stance on this is to a large part driven by personal dislike of the matter. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 16:33, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Neither of those articles provide what I asked, which is evidence that the minority view is not a negligible fringe minority. Nature says: "Scientists, though, tend to side with the poets in rejecting any notion that water can hold lasting impressions." and "Indeed, Homeopathy 's editor, Peter Fisher of the Royal London Homeopathic Hospital admits that "the 'memory of water' casts a long shadow over homeopathy", indicating that scientists reject it, and even homeopathists admit its lack of acceptance. Science is no better; their title is "French Nobelist Escapes "Intellectual Terror" to Pursue Radical Ideas in China", and quoting the lead: "What has shocked many scientists, however, isn't Montagnier's departure from France but what he plans to study in China: electromagnetic waves that Montagnier says emanate from the highly diluted DNA of various pathogens", indicating again that his work has no acceptance within the scientific community. Thank you for now providing sources for your proposal, but these are insufficient to reflect changes to the article (much less the lead). Per your other suggestion, I would be fine with stating that the idea is central to homeopathy (although, I think this idea comes across quite clearly with our current lead), but in any way suggesting that the scientific community does not wholly reject the notion is, as of yet, currently unsupported.   — Jess· Δ♥ 18:31, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Just to be totally clear, the type of source that we'd need would have to say something like "The concept is gaining support within the scientific community", or "many notable scientists support...", or something equivalent. The opinion of one Nobel laureate isn't enough; Nobel laureates say all kinds of things, from holocaust denial to telepathy and vitamin c curing cancer, but these don't (and cannot) affect our report of the overwhelming scientific consensus, even one bit. That's why we have policies like WP:FRINGE and WP:DUE, because such opinions are due exactly 0 coverage. I'll admit that I am dubious that such a sufficient (reliable) source actually exists, but if you have one, we can introduce it to the article. The only issue is that we don't, as of yet, have one to introduce.   — Jess· Δ♥ 19:16, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

(Hit edit conflict with you. Will read your response, and potentially strike (or refer to to) this one based on it.)   — Jess· Δ♥ 19:16, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the detailed response. I agree with you that water memory has no scientific basis, and that it is nearly universally rejected (or not accepted...) by scientists. However even the Nature article makes the concession that 'Scientists tend...' (emphasis added). Also the mere fact that Science deigns to comment on Montagnier's support of this dross indicates that he is a notable proponent. By adding 'generally' I was attempting to curb accusations of false statements. I do not insist on adding Luc Montagnier to the lead (although I would like to see him inlcuded in the main text, at least), but I think that an absolute statement is just never sourceable (and opens the article and it's contents up to dispute from supporters), which is why I would prefer 'scientific consensus'. I can't see how credibly claiming absolute consensus is possible when there are two Nobelists (nutters or not) supporting it. The lead does state that Benveniste suggested this as a rational explanation, but to what extent this is accepted by homeopaths is not made clear; I think this should be included. Again, thanks for detailing your thoughts on this; I previously felt that my opinions were being dismissed without further comment or consideration, which I found very frustrating. I am sure you understand and I hope that you accept my apology for any abrasiveness. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 19:09, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, yes, the Nature article does say "scientists tend to", however, that is the sort of thing you'd expect to see in a journal article discussing the "radical" opinion of a dissenting Nobel laureate. When discussing that one radical opinion, such wording makes sense, but it does not in our case. We have to operate differently here than they do, since we're presenting coverage of the entire topic, and not just its relation to one radical opinion. In our case, his radical opinion is granted no weight when it comes to reporting the opinion of the scientific community, because it is wholly rejected by such a sizeable portion of it that his opinion is negligible. (BTW: The same is true of every other topic for which one or two big names disagree with everyone else, which is a phenomena you will encounter fairly regularly on wikipedia) With that said, I don't actually have a problem saying "scientific consensus" in place of "scientific community", so long as it's worded well. I'm not a fan of the previous proposal, but perhaps another wording would suffice, which places the same emphasis as currently, while using the new term. Perhaps "The concept is not consistent with natural laws, and the scientific consensus is that water does not have a memory for more than a fraction of a nanosecond." We'd need to have a source for the underlined bit (I know I've seen one). Would that work?

The only problem I had with claiming any absolutes for the scientific community is that it's such a fickle thing to prove because there is no central body that speaks for it. 'Consensus' seems much less problematic to me, and isn't an undue concession. I'm happy with your proposal if you can find that ref. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 21:20, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

As for adding Luc Montagnier to the body of the article, I think that would be an improvement. However, we would obviously need to emphasize that his work was not received well. Checking his article, there are three sources for that, two of which are acceptable. We could also include other proponents of the idea, but we would still need to be careful not to give undue weight to any one of them or their ideas. After adding to the body, a very brief summary of Luc's media coverage may be appropriate for the lead as well, right next to Benveniste. I'd welcome you to pull up sources and add whatever content you feel appropriate to the article in that regard. If I disagree with anything, I'll revert or improve it, and we can discuss everything further. I'm sure you'll put everything together nicely, though :)   — Jess· Δ♥ 19:42, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I will draw up a section on Montagnier for the main body and post it here first before putting it in the article. I was actually just thinking of a sentence or two about his support, his own experiments and the reaction. I don't think including other proponents is necessary since they are not nearly as prominent (although I'm not opposed to it either). I think the ref you had on the skepticism in the homeopath community is interesting as well, will you add that to the lead? Rainbowwrasse (talk) 21:20, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

What do you think of this? Obviously I will add the sources if I post it to the article

"In a late 2010 Science magazine interview, French Nobel laureate Luc Montagnier hailed Benveniste as "a modern Galileo" and claimed that “hese are real phenomena which deserve further study." In 2009, Montagnier himself had published two articles claiming the detection of electromagnetic signals from high dilutions of bacterial DNA in a journal for which he served as chairman of the editorial board. His claims contradict several fundamental principles of physics and of chemistry and were widely criticized by the scientific community, with “fellow Nobel prize winners … …openly shaking their heads” at the 2010 Lindau Nobel laureate meeting in Germany." Rainbowwrasse (talk) 19:47, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Ennis

Opening this to discuss the Ennis issues. Wondering what the problem was with my edit?Cjwilky (talk) 19:32, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

I've read the cite. The article text is incorrect insofar at it refers to this debunking Ennis's work (the cite doesn't mention Ennis at all and instead debunks author "Dana Ullman"). The piece is a labelled as "commentary" and describes research that doesn't appear to have been published. If there weren't many cites available then yes, this probably meets the minimum requirement of reliability. But as we have plenty of good cites I'm not sure this adds much. GaramondLethe 23:03, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

I pretty much agree with Garamond. I reverted (and asked for discussion) for a few reasons: Sourced content was removed without a stated reason. I understand that reason now to be that the 'experiment' run by ABC wasn't a scientific study, but I don't see how that's relevant. It's sourced news coverage of the topic, so it seems relevant to me. More importantly, the new content added doesn't seem to meet the quality of sourcing that I'd really like to see. It uses a source from a homeopathy journal which (unsurprisingly) disputes the findings of the the previous study. That alone might be something we could cover, but I'm not sure of what benefit it would be. However, the content inserted based on that source was worded in a way to synthesize the previous source with the homeopathy journal, commenting on both using novel text. For instance, "although, as acknowledged by one of the scientists involved...". I don't see that in the source, and we don't have a source discussing both AFAICT. We can discuss this more, but I'd like to see us stick closer to the sourcing, and not try to contradict a peer reviewed scientific publication with some commentary found in a homeopathy article.   — Jess· Δ♥ 23:24, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

First I don't understand what Garramond is referring to - where is there debunking of Ullman? Its Ennis debunking Randi, and the experimenter himself debunking Randi. There are also other people involved in the experiment debunking Randi. Randi didn't follow the protocol, simple.

The ABC experiment IS the Horizon one. There was no new experiment by ABC. If you read the cite as I suggested you would have seen that. Reference to ABC serves no additional purpose to the article whatsoever except as a reference to an experiment which has already been discussed - which I note is already done. Further, I made this clear earlier - sorry you are all finding it difficult to understand... it isn't really is it?

One of the scientists did say exactly what I said - again you should read the sources, its not as if its a long piece.

That its a homeopathy journal has no relevance when we are talking about exactly what happened. The email is what Ennis herself said, the other email is what the scientist concerned said, and what others involved in the experiement said.

Its clear if you read the sources I gave that Randi failed to replicate the protocols. Are there no skeptics here who have the nouse to see this? Was Randi peer reviewed? Where? Cjwilky (talk) 01:04, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I was discussing this edit. Based on the above I'm guessing you meant this one. I might get to this later. GaramondLethe 01:40, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

@Cjwilky This whole issue stems from Benveniste's original study. If I am reading the article correctly, there have been many peer reviewed publications since his study, some of which we are covering. Contradicting those with commentary found in a Homeopathy journal is providing undue weight to the journal, and unduly dismissing the scientific research (which was noted as methodologically sound in these same sources) on the basis that they don't follow Benveniste's original protocal (which in the past had not been methodologically sound). This seems plain to me. The sourcing allows us to discuss that Benveniste didn't agree with the findings, but that seems obvious and not in need of repetition. Our sourcing doesn't support the wording used, which is attributed to "one scientist involved" and general public "criticisms of the experiment", which makes it appear as though the previous scientific studies on this issue were done poorly. Our sourcing indicates they were not. You are correct that you mentioned the ABC source is a repetition of the Horizon experiment. I got confused in my reply to you after others had claimed that it was an unexplained removal, which is why I said it was "unexplained" too. If the ABC source really is repeating what we've already covered (the ABC source doesn't say it is), then it can be removed or incorporated better. My primary concern (as I indicated above and in my edit summary) is the new content added. Thanks.   — Jess· Δ♥ 02:53, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Cjwilky made similar changes to the article on Madeleine Ennis, which I have reverted as unreliably sourced and giving undue weight. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 08:31, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

This article really is messy. The Ennis experiments stand by themselves, they were not about repeating Benvenistes experiments - where is that claimed? BUT they are relevant to the claims made in the lead of this article and do relate very much to the concept of dilute dynamised solutions, which is essentially the area where Benveniste was working. So the part in the article where it says "An international team led by Professor Madeleine Ennis of Queen's University of Belfast claimed in 1999 to have replicated the Benveniste results." should be removed or be backed up, because at present they are not - and if you know anything about the whole story, you'd know they are not, if you don't then go read :)

I'm not sure what part of "So we set it up, in Europe, where similar published tests claimed to find that kind of effect.(ie no mention of the Randi test - which of course there would be if it was different) Scientists at Guy's Hospital in London prepared samples of the type of histamines that Ullman said would relieve allergy symptoms. (yep, thats what the Randi experiment did) " in the ABC cite you aren't seeing? ABC AND Horizon set this up - I'm not sure exactly which company led it, but its clear its the same experiment - please show some evidence as to the details of the experiment if you disagree - or are we saying that a hollow, undefined news report stands as fact? If you can offer me a date for this ABC experiment - that would show its different to the Horizon one - maybe there would be a case for its inclusion, otherwise not. Maybe there are some mentions of who conducted the ABC experiemnt? There is nothing to say or even suggest its not the one and the same. So I'm also left here wondering if we are having double standards as to what is allowed here and not.

Back to the Ennis - its not trying to follow Benvenistes protocols - where is that cited? Look at her procols and those of Benveniste. Ennis disagreed with the protocol in the Randi mock "replication" BEFORE the results were given, as well as after. And the scientist who performed the make up of the remedies and examined the cells, agrees on at least a few points. I'd like to know where it is verified that Randi did actually replicate it? Are we going on the word of a stage magician or his supporters, all who have £1m dollars tied up? Really, come on :) And why are the comments of one of his chief experimenters and those of one of the main moderators discounted in this? I'm seeing a great deal of misunderstanding here.

To summarise:

1) we currently have a confusion about Ennis replicating Benveniste - unsubstantiated.

2) Randi is currently accepted as replicating Ennis, whilst *his* researcher AND three moderators AND the person who conducted the original trial, Ennis, ALL disagree with this. This information is repeated in mumerous places and has not been challenged.

3) It is claimed that ABC repeated the Randi experiment - unsubstantiated - whilst they actually performed a study IN CONJUNCTION with Horizon.

Garramond - hope this helps clarification :) Cjwilky (talk) 19:45, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

If nobody has any further comment, I'll make the changes. Cjwilky (talk) 14:57, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Three editors have said they don't agree with your changes. You haven't provided reliable sources, just your own opinion that the ABC and BBC experiments are the same experiment, claiming that if they were different ABC would have mentioned the BBC experiment. A claim, nothing more. These "undefined news reports" are each saying they did an experiment (neither of them saying they did it alone nor they did it together, but why would they need to say that no other program was involved?), you're saying that it's clearly the same experiment - who do you think is the more reliable source?

The article doesn't say that Ennis tried to follow Benveniste's protocol - it says the team claimed to have replicated the results (i.e. found that dilutions beyond material doses had an effect) - did they not do that?

We might change that Horizon "followed Ennis' experimental procedure" to "used a procedure similar Ennis's", or use their wording - "repeat Ennis's experiments under controlled conditions".

"Randi" didn't do any experiment (and the article doesn't claim he did), he offered a prize if the experiments showed that impossible "dilutions" were distinguishable from plain solvent. --Six words (talk) 22:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Hang on... I took your word that the ABC experiment and Horizon experiment were the same, because I thought you could back that claim up. Now you're saying you assume the experiments were the same because you think one would have mentioned the other if they weren't? The burden of proof isn't on me to disprove your claim. We have two sources independently discussing studies with different details. These reliable sources should both should be represented in the article. If you have a source to back up your claim, then we can modify the article accordingly. Your assumptions about the motivations of the writers and experimenters doesn't help us.   — Jess· Δ♥ 23:08, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Lets deal with the ABC issue first. There was no proof *for* the ABC low brow journo rant, or report if you like, having any validity as being a unique experiment - strange you consider the burden of proof seems to come for the need to disproove it :-/ Check the transcript here for the ABC prog Catalyst http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s805448.htm and compare Cjwilky (talk) 00:28, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

We have one source by ABC that says they set up a test at Guy's Hospital, and another source by the BBC that says they tested it at the University of London. These were apparently broadcast on different news stations, and the articles refer to different participants. I'm not going to engage in OR by combing through transcripts to find similarities. If the sources refer to the same experiment, you need to corroborate that with proper sourcing. Making assumptions about what a journalist would have written doesn't cut it. Frankly, I'm pretty busy right now, so I don't have the time to argue further about the burden of proof and sourcing; a few editors have commented in opposition to the change. We need to address those concerns or move on.   — Jess· Δ♥ 01:03, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

No, keep up :) We have a very poorly written source that doesn't say a lot, and one ABC transcript that details it and a BBC transcript thats IDENTICAL even at a quick glance. Keep your comb in your pocket, but either engage here or don't. Cjwilky (talk) 02:58, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

The transcript you linked isn't the source we're using in the article, which you're trying to dismiss. Look, you made a claim. Back it up. That's the last I'll say on the matter.   — Jess· Δ♥ 04:13, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Apologies for the hassle :) I did finally find enough evidence to support the ABC being a different experiment to the BBC one, albeit a repetition with exactly the same faulty protocols performed by the same people. Of course neither experiment is published, and the ABC show is particularly well lost. Cjwilky (talk) 01:28, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Earlier Experiments?

Many years ago I read a book covering this research, and recently needed to recover some of the details. - The problem is that they are missing and there is no mention of them in the article at all. (the original source was a library book and I no longer remember the exact title) As I remember it the original experiments in water memory involved electro-magnetic induction, and it was only later experiments that involved 'homeopathic' techniques. It is the earlier experiments that interest me - mainly as I would like details on how to repeat them. (if they actually exist) If they do exist they would be an important part of this article. Lucien86 (talk) 00:02, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Link between local relaxation and global memory (reversion)

I predicted to the person who informed me of the invalid argument that we see in this section that this revert would happen pretty soon: it was as inevitable as autumn being followed by winter. What is happening here? The psychologicst Jean Piaget discussed the various stages in cognitive development, of which the highest levels involve formal reasoning. A significant proportion of the population never reach this level even in adulthood, and thus cannot see connections that are obvious to people used to such reasoning. WP editors on average are probably no better than the population at large and thus may be prone to see OR where no exists. The question is, do WP pages have to be dumbed down in this way? --Brian Josephson (talk) 19:27, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

I suggest you follow policy and not attack other editors. Your edit was clearly not about water memory. Period. Otherwise, constructive edits are very welcome. -- Brangifer (talk) 19:36, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

1. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/330/6012/1732.full
2. P. Ball (8 August 2007). "Here lies one whose name is writ in water". Nature. doi:10.1038/news070806-6. Retrieved 2011-02-13.
3. http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199900/ldselect/ldsctech/123/12303.htm

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