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November 30

“Experiencing disconnection helps individuals come to a greater sense of acceptance” - English speech concept?

So I need to write a speech on how the concept of “experiencing disconnection helps individuals come to a greater sense of acceptance” is evident in 3 texts.

The only problem is I find the statement incredibly contradictory and am struggling to find a "way in" to the statement. What kind of idea could I incorporate into my thesis to show how such a contradictory statement is evident? If it helps the area of study is based on "belonging". I'm clearly not expecting you to write any part of the speech I just, like I said, need a "way in" as such. 115.64.57.154 (talk) 10:14, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps if you can't resolve contradictory things by logic or by eliminating one of them, your only choice, if you don't want to keep experiencing disconnection, is to say 'it is what it is' and move on.184.147.136.249 (talk) 15:10, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Without ragging too much on your prof or the current state of academia, the in you're looking for is irony/paradox. Sometime when you've got too much time on your hands, try getting through TS Eliot's Four Quartets. (Bonus points if you do it again when you're 60.) For now, just realize that "greater" is going to have to mean "stronger", "more profound", or "more meaningful" in a nebulous "sense" way. Your teacher wants you to find three examples where going through a time of being an outsider made the later sense of belonging that much more powerful and secure: human history, religion, and literature are rife with them, especially since leaders take the opportunity to gain unusual insight and helpful hidden knowledge that they then use to show why they are the Chosen Ones. To take three easy ones from the Bible: Moses being raised by the Egyptians; Job enduring the Book of Job; and Jesus's days in the desert.

But don't fault your initial read. It's a pretty badly-written prompt. The answer above is based on "acceptence" being the pack's acceptance of the former lone wolf (who has now acquired Wisdom and Self-Awareness and returned as either Badass Lone Wolf or Lone Wolf the Savior). It's more likely s/he meant it as psychological "acceptance" of one's self: time outside the group provides a chance for independence and maturation and accepting the rough edges that always seemed so awful within the original group dynamic. Part of the reason it's a bad prompt is that it's not clear which one s/he's looking for. If you can, try asking for some clarification. — LlywelynII 15:50, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Capitalization of royal titles

Liu Wu was initially created prince of Dai (代王) in 178  BC. In 176, he became prince of Huaiyang (淮陽王) instead and his brother Liu Can (劉粲) replaced him as prince of Dai. Instead, following custom, Liu Che, the prince of Jiaodong, was promoted to crown prince and his mother Lady Wang to empress.

Is it grammatically correct to capitalize P where I bolded in these sentences? I intentionally excluded crown prince and empress.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 11:51, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes (but not exclusively so.) — LlywelynII 15:03, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the usual convention is to regard "Prince" as a proper noun when it designates a particular individual (... the Prince of Wherever ...) but as a common noun when used more generally ( ... a prince among ...).
I'd tend to use capitals for Crown Prince and Empress in your last sentence, but others might disagree because the modern trend is to capitalise less. Dbfirs 16:22, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

In the cases you have given, they would not be capitalized, unless they were special titles, like the Prince of Wales, which is an honorific given to the son of the reigning British monarch. At the time the Princes in the Tower were murdered, they were princes of England, not Princes of England. μηδείς (talk) 02:07, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

One was a prince of England. The other was the King of England. -- Elphion (talk) 05:08, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

At least, the rightful King of England, even if deposed by his uncle -- on the grounds that they were not in fact princes of England. A complicated example; but you're right about the capitalization. -- Elphion (talk) 05:10, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

It may be confusing to the OP that you have switched to a separate issue, that of who was actually the king of England; Richard III, who was eventual crowned, or the nephew he presumably murdered, who never had a coronation. μηδείς (talk) 16:43, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Speaking of confusing, you've added an irrelevancy (posing as a clarification) to a tangent. In the British system, "the king never dies"; this means the new king/queen acquires that status instantaneously on the death or abdication of the incumbent. Coronation is not necessary to confirm this. Edward VIII was never crowned, but his kingship, while it lasted, has never been doubted. -- Jack of Oz 20:18, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

These titles are titles over actual or nominal realms given by the emperors to younger sons and were equivalent to the titles of the former monarchs of the Warring States. There was only one Prince of Dai at any given time like Wales.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 17:17, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

If that is the case, then the word Prince should indeed be capitalised in these cases. μηδείς (talk) 19:26, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

December 1

Is Satan pronounced same as satin?

Is Satan pronounced same as satin? http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Satin#Satan? http://en.wikipedia.org/Satin (look @ "Not to be consufed with Satan."). 78.156.109.166 (talk) 09:41, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

• According to the pronunciation given at Wiktionary, they're not pronounced similarly enough to warrant confusion. I've removed the "not to be confused with Satan" tag from satin. JIP | Talk 10:22, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Confusion doesn't necessarily only come from homophones, but also words with similar spellings, in which case those two words do seem to qualify. StuRat (talk) 10:43, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

That "not to be confused with" sounds like somebody's idea of a joke. Satan rhymes with Peyton and satin rhymes with Patton. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:31, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

It seems like they DO pronounce the same to me. I've said them verbally to check.

Michael Jackson. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.156.109.166 (talk) 15:36, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Then you're pronouncing one of them the wrong way. Unless you pronounce "rate" and "rat" the same way. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:20, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

The most prevalent pronunciations using transcriptions according to Misplaced Pages IPA for English conventions are Satan = and satin = . In many American English dialects, the second syllables of the words would become syllabic nasals, and the original contrast between the unstressed vowels would disappear. The 14th edition Daniel Jones pronouncing dictionary lists as an "old fashioned" pronunciation of Satan, but I've never heard it, and I don't think it would be understood in most areas of the English-speaking world... AnonMoos (talk) 16:18, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

From my experience as a native English speaker, I've never gotten them confused or heard of anyone getting them confused--I think that the quasi-redirect in question was intended as a joke as well. Cogito-Ergo-Sum 03:07, 2 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by CogitoErgoSum14 (talk • contribs)

They're distinct to those of us in the Great White North too. The Church Lady demonstrates how the first should really be pronounced. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:26, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Distribution of Cyrillic

Why do some places that have been under Russian control for centuries, such as Poland and Estonia, use the Latin alphabet and not Cyrillic? →Σσς. (Sigma) 10:22, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

In general, controlling another nation doesn't always mean you want to force it to change to match your own, whether we're talking about the alphabet or something else. The Romans seemed to understand this, and often allowed the conquered nations to retain their own languages. To force them to abandon their own culture would ensure more resistance to Roman rule. StuRat (talk) 10:46, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Σ -- Choice of alphabet actually correlates most closely with religion: predominantly Catholic or Protestant = Latin alphabet, while predominantly Eastern Orthodox = Russian alphabet. That explains why Serbo-Croatian was written with the Latin alphabet in Croatia but mainly with the Cyrillic alphabet in Serbia. However, Romania switched over to the Latin alphabet in order to align itself with the other Romance-language-speaking nations... AnonMoos (talk) 16:06, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

In the 1920's, Soviet scholars developed standard Latin-based scripts for most of the languages of the Soviet Union that did not already have their own script. In the 1930's these were all replaced by Cyrillic scripts. Only the long-established cases of Latvian, Lithuanian, Estonian, Armenian, Georgian and Yiddish were left uncyrillicised. Outside the Soviet Union, I know of no language which changed to use Cyrillic apart from Mongolian: as AnonMoos says, the other Cyrillic scripts in Europe are traditional, and used where the Orthodox Church was traditionally strong. --ColinFine (talk) 18:00, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Because there was never official policy to enforce Cyrillic until 1930s. And even so, the communists imposed Cyrillic only to those who either have never had strong written tradition (many people of Volga-Ural region, Syberia and so on) or had the Arabic script (so the communists tried to struggle against Muslim fundamentalism this way, the Latinisation ten years before also had this goal).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 20:37, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Back in the Russian Empire Nicholas I did try to introduce a Cyrillic alphabet for Polish but was unsuccessful, for the reasons mentioned above; see . Estonian literature does not have as long a history, but the prestige language in the Baltic region was German, which used the Latin alphabet (or more precisely Fraktur, which Estonian also used; see ). Lesgles (talk) 02:33, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

You oversimplify the matter. The tsars were not super-humans who were only responsible for every doing and who controlled every aspect of the life in the country. The "Cyrillization" of Polish (and to a lesser extent Lithuanian) was an initiative of the local Orthodox clergy with a dozen or so of printed religious books for no-one (obviously, the Poles and Lithuanians did not read them). And Nicholas I was initially quite generous to the Poles and Polish aristocracy until their risings, when his and his successors' policy toward Poland turned around. In the Baltic and Finland everything was ruled by the local Baltic German or Swedish aristocracy as well as Lutheran clergy, so the tsarist administration entire relied upon them and therefore indulged them. As you can understand they (Germans and Swedes) were not interested in Cyrillization so the Russian administration wasn't. The similar tsarist hands-off policy was applied to Caucasian and Central Asian peoples.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 03:23, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

December 2

Translation of Sanskrit text

I know someone who found a stone etched with characters while vacationing in India last year. They are trying to figure out what the characters mean. They wrote them down in MS Paint. See the following link for a picture.

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/566/vtxs.png

Thanks in advance. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 00:36, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

It's very unlikely to be Sanskrit, if only because the words are short between spaces (individual Sanskrit words can be short, but when sandhi occurs between them they are usually written without a space). I suspect it is Hindi, but I don't know enough to be sure. --ColinFine (talk) 22:55, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I can barely read Devanagari in printed font, so it is extremely hard for me to make out this handwritten text. The first word appears to be लिंकन for which I could find no entry in either my Sanskrit or Hindi dictionaries. If that is indeed what the word is, however, a google search turned up this link which indicates it's a transliteration of "Lincoln" and this search result page is all about Abraham Lincoln. Not much, but it's a start.....maybe.--William Thweatt 07:58, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

← I understand Devanagari script and the language seems to be Hindi, though some of the words don't make sense to me. Below is the best English transliteration I could come up with (line-wise) -

• Linkan Vaah-Vaahi
• Maagn Freeman Vaah-Vaahi
• Gadrvatita (GAP IN RECORD)
• Parmeshwar ki stuti
• Namaaj (Samaaj?) ke apne

Out of these, I know that "Vaah-Vaahi" means "praise", "Parmeshwar ki stuti" means "God's worship", "Samaaj ke apne" means "the society's own" or "to be on of the society". I am sure if you post this question at WP:IND you'll get a better response. Such a gentleman 19:44, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

You can try your luck at WP:IND Such a gentleman 19:46, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Such a gentleman's interpretation is quite reasonable (my "reading" differs at a few points, but makes no more sense), and the text is surely in Hindi/Hindustani, rather than Sanskrit. Any chance of a photograph, or some context of where the stone was found, what type of a "stone" it is (street-side rock, amulet, etc), or what the text is supposed to be (random graffiti, poem, slogan,...) ? Abecedare (talk) 20:03, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Solid

What's the etymology of the noun solid in the slang sense of "a favor"? (I could imagine it might be an abbreviation of "a solid favor", but is that a common phrase?)  Card Zero  (talk) 01:57, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

A quick survey of various Google references suggests it is short for "solid favor", keeping in mind that "solid" implies "good" or "strong" or maybe even "big". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:21, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Tradent

What does this word mean in the context of an oral tradition? I suspect it comes from the Latin word tradent but I can't find it in any dictionaries. 64.106.114.133 (talk) 02:19, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Can you link to an example where it's used? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:22, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

See wikt:tradent#Latin.—Wavelength (talk) 02:29, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

There's a use of it here in the second paragraph. But I am asking because it's used in The Formation of the Hebrew Bible by David M. Carr. And Wavelength I understand that it's a word in Latin but I'm asking about its use in English. 64.106.114.133 (talk) 02:41, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

The OED has a definition that applies to Roman law, "The person who delivers or hands over any property to another", which perhaps doesn't immediately illuminate the usages you cite, but their meaning is nevertheless fairly transparent. Latin trado means "to hand over or hand down", so that a tradition is something handed down and a tradent would be a person involved in the handing down of a tradition (just as a correspondent is a person engaged in correspondence and a suppliant is one who supplicates). One might, I guess, say that Dante was a tradent of the idea that hell is within the earth. Given the form of the word (and, I hasten to say, without any source to cite), I'd guess that the word was originally used in this sense by French scholars and then adopted by English-speaking ones without having made it into dictionaries yet. Deor (talk) 09:39, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

• In Latin, tradent is the third person plural present indicative, "they hand down". The noun from the participle would be tradens, tradentis, which might become tradent ("the one passing down") in English. But it would be ungrammatical in Latin. The word tradition comes from the same root. μηδείς (talk) 17:33, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

In Latin, tradent is the third-person plural future indicative active, whereas tradunt is the third-person plural present indicative active.

—Wavelength (talk) 17:53, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I'll go with that, since "tradunt" was tickling me as I typed it. Must be one of those futures that are the same as the subjunctives, then, like dicere? μηδείς (talk) 21:37, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

You can see the subjunctive forms at wikt:trado#Inflection.

—Wavelength (talk) 22:05, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Fær øer: norse name in italian?

Hello, in italian Misplaced Pages we have just faced a problem in etymology which arose my sense of curiosity and left me with some open questions. Here they are:

In Italian language, Faroe Islands are usually called "Fær Øer" and this spelling is found in many sources, both contemporary and old, from television to modern atlases, by way of old catholic documents and old maps (at it:Discussione:Fær_Øer#Regolette one may find at some point of the discussion a table we made containing which names are used by atlas in Italian). In modern Italian, there is no word with ø or æ, so "Fær Øer" should be a loanword from another language. But one may discover easily that Fær Øer isn't really a Danish nor Faroese name. Since "Fær" means "sheep" in Old Norse and "øer" stands for "isles" in Danish, I thought "Fær Øer" might be an Old Norse name or a name in a old Danish/Faroese dialects, but I hadn't found evidence of this in any source. Also, the old catholic diocese in those islands, according to this site, was called "Diocese of Fær Øer", with the same spelling spelling of italian, and the dioceses lasted from 1080 to 1538, while first written document in modern Danish is the Bible of 1550, according to en.wikipedia. So, what language is the word "Fær Øer" from?? Is it truly Old Norse? And, (IMHO it's hard), where did Italian use this word for the first time?--Nickanc (talk) 15:10, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

That fact about the Bible of 1550 is in History of Danish, which also mentions Middle Danish, dating from the 12th century, and before that Old West Norse, in which "the øy (Old West Norse ey) diphthong changed into ø as well, as in the Old Norse word for island". So "Fær Øer" would be Middle Danish for Færeyjar, and there you are. First Italian use of it sounds hard to find, I agree.  Card Zero  (talk) 15:31, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I don't know the Italian etymology but they are also called Færøer in Italian. The current Danish name is Færøerne where "øerne" means the isles while "øer" alone means isles, so the Danish name is quite close. PrimeHunter (talk) 15:34, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Political Correctness

I note, from this BBC article, that what in my day (and the journalist's day, apparently) were called "pupils", and, until recently, were called "students", are now called "learners". Is there any official justification/explanation for this change? It doesn't seem to be a typical euphemism treadmill. Tevildo (talk) 20:39, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

As a sometimes cynical teacher, one of my first mischievous thoughts was that calling them learners was wishful thinking. But more broadly, all industries have their jargon, and education is no exception. In fact, as someone who has worked in several industries before teaching, I'd say education is one of the worst. New, unnecessary terms for old things are constantly being invented. In my neighbourhood teachers sometimes speak of being "in-serviced". My understanding of that is that it's a verb created from the noun "in-service". There was a concept of doing "in-service-training", meaning training they did while in employment as a teacher. They threw away the noun there and turned the adjective, "in-service", into the noun, then it, in turn, became a verb. For people allegedly teaching our kids how to speak, that's gruesome. HiLo48 (talk) 21:05, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

What a great concept, the "euphemism treadmill". This is the product of a conspiracy between rent seekers who need to prove their worth and supplicants hoping to become rent seekers who need to prove their mastery of the newest buzzwords.

The other mystery is "pupil-free day". I thought that schools were all about the pupils and their needs, and that language was generally framed from the pupils' perspective. When my kids started telling me they had a "pupil-free day" coming up, I thought they were planning to take their eyes out and give them a good wash. -- Jack of Oz 23:08, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Oh, it is from their perspective. Those are the days the pupils are free :-) --Trovatore (talk) 01:15, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

These things must arise from cunning linguists trying to keep the language evolving (or devolving). In my day, the folks who passed laws were called legislators, congressman and senators. Now they're called "lawmakers", those other terms apparently being too complicated. Trouble is, when I hear that term, the mental picture I get is of an old shoemaker whose work gets finished by elves (which, come to think of it, isn't far from the way it works). ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:22, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I prefer the more telling version: Political correctedness Manytexts (talk) 23:18, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

"Learners" is in order to bring together those in "education" and in "training". Students, pupils, apprentices, trainees, all are learners. I can see the point, but it was nice to visit a training scheme where they deliberately used "students" rather than "trainees" because the learners requested them to do so. Itsmejudith (talk) 00:24, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks very much, at least it's not illogical. Is this sort of issue the subject of diktats from the DES (or whatever it's called these days), or down to individual report writers to adopt the latest trends? Tevildo (talk) 20:08, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Both. The DfE (was DES) will make their own civil servants use it, then they "encourage" others like consultants who they have commissioned to do research, then other writers pick it up. But they won't admit that they make such diktats. They replaced LEA (local education authority) with LA (local authority) in the same way. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:22, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

This gets to a fine point of English. Like if you step into the batter's box, are you a "hitter" or just a "batter"? It's to be hoped that they're learners rather than just sitting there. The origin of the term "pupil" is interesting and ironic. It's cognate with "pupa" and "puppet", and actually refers to a "doll"... which is a pretty much inanimate object... as are some students, from time to time. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:28, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

German to English

In the article Apprenticeship in the section for Germany, Industriekaufmann needs added translation to make sense - in English I can find "all-rounder" and "industrial manager" on google guess there's more to it. Taking the first solution, is it the English equivalent "tradesman" as in fully-qualified? Thanks in advance. Manytexts (talk) 23:10, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

The Federal Institute for Vocational Training (BiBB) translates it as "industrial clerk" (see that link for the "training profile" in English). ---Sluzzelin talk 23:16, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks - I confused a para before & something else. When I read the whole para slowly (after following your link) it is what you say and does make sense. Manytexts (talk) 23:28, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

http://dict.leo.org/ende/index_de.html#/search=Industriekaufmann&searchLoc=0&resultOrder=basic&multiwordShowSingle=on gives   clerk in an industrial firm   industrial business management assistant   industrial clerk   industrial manager industrial sales representative .. but dict.leo.org is user-edited and not fully reliable. None of the topic-related german professions or apprenticeships or school-Levels have any corresponding article in any other language on wikipedia. Industriekaufmann (salesman focussed on merchandising and commercing around the production process in industry like raw-materials, production-machines, parts of goods´ production) like (what it should be seen opposed to the other °-kaufmanns°: ) Einzelhandelskaufmann (trained shopkeeping retail salesman, seller) and Groß- und Außenhandelskaufmann (something like: trained international wholesale, storage & retail import-export salesman, sell- and reseller), Speditionskaufmann (transport and logistics clerk in conveyance, freight, shipping and forwarding business) and Versicherungskaufmann (insurance-salesman, focussed on contracts and conditions) is in any case an apprenticeship to a named trained profession needs two to three years of combined theoretical and practical-employed training and an exam at the so called public industrial and sales-chamber. No school certificate is needed by law, but firms offering the training mostly want germ.: Fachhochschulreife roughly comparable to sort of economic-section-focussed A-Level. literally it´s   industrial salesman   which i think fits best cos´ it leaves open the possibilities of becoming an industrial manager, an industrial salesman or an industrial clerk or an industrial representative (anything between - but not excluding - worker to CEO in industry) as a matter of fact. Or maybe an industrial commerce salesman? trained industrial merchant (?) / tradesman (?) / °commercant° (??!)? trained industrial employee also would fit well, cos in apprenticeship, you usually learn to know the whole business without specializing (that´s the concept) telling nothing about in which part or section of a firm in that economic sector one later will specialize as employee. ( And that goes for all of the kaufmanns-apprenticeships. --217.84.69.206 (talk) 17:57, 6 December 2013 (UTC) .. forgot Bürokaufmann, trained bureau-salesman. --217.84.112.180 (talk) 12:56, 14 December 2013 (UTC) .. and - of course - the Bankkaufmann, salesman in banking sector. --217.84.112.180 (talk) 13:32, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

December 3

Some better word

In the sentence- "His essay Russkoe Vostochnoe Soglashenie (Russian Oriental Relations) emphasized not only agreement between and understanding of one another by Russians and Muslims but an actual drawing close together–sblizhenie," is the phrase "drawing close together" correct, or can you suggest some better word choice or interpretation for/of the word 'sblizhenie.' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.74.40.58 (talk) 07:03, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Bonding ? Rapprochement ? StuRat (talk) 07:30, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

As well as

I have some confusion regarding the verb to use with "as well as." As far as I know, in the sentence "This possibility as well as the previous topics is in need of systematic investigation" the verb should be singular but my senior seems to think otherwise. If I am correct, then please cite some reliable source by which I can defend my decision. Thanks in advance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.74.40.58 (talk) 07:10, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

It's a plural subject, so it's "are", not "is". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:22, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Plus, it's kind of mangled English. With "are" instead of "is", it's not wrong but it's inelegant and would not be written by a native speaker. You don't really need to split them up like that, you could just define the topics/possibilities in the previous sentence and then say "These topics need to be systematically investigated" or something. --Viennese Waltz 14:41, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, Bugs, but most style guides I'm familiar with call for a singular is in this construction (although I would set off "as well as the previous topics" with commas). See my comments—particulary the quotation from Words into Type—as well as the rest of the thread, at Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 March 1#More subject / verb. Deor (talk) 15:05, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

The commas change the construction. As written, "as well as" equates to "and", making it a plural subject. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:08, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

You're just being silly now, I fear. Deor (talk) 15:17, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

You've got it wrong. "This and that" ARE, not IS. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:51, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

OK, uncle. I tried the original sentence in Word, then switched it to "are", and it wants me to change it back to "is". It still doesn't seem right, though. Awkward wording. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:58, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree that, technically, the verb should be is, but this sounds so wrong to a native speaker's ears that the sentence should be rewritten, maybe something like "Both this possibility and the issues already discussed need systematic investigation", though even this is less than elegant. I'd need to know the context to suggest something smoother. Marco polo (talk) 16:03, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Bugs. In this case, as well as is being used as "and", and the plural verb is necesary. If the phrase were a parenthetical one set off by commas or parentheses the singular verb would apply. But it isn't, so it doesn't. μηδείς (talk) 18:07, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

As well as is logically equivalent to but grammatically distinct from and and doesn't change the number of the original subject. It doesn't matter whether the writer remembers to include commas or not: the very nature of the phrase creates a parenthetical. It's is, but (as stated above) the whole thing is just unpleasant to look at and should be reworded with an and or rephrasing. — LlywelynII 23:50, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I get that rationale, but I don't buy it. If you pause vocally, is sounds fine. If you don't pause, are is the only natural alternative. μηδείς (talk) 01:31, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Sanskrit Translation

Hi I would really love to get a reliable English to Sanskrit translation for this Rumi quote: Put your thoughts to sleep. Do not let them cast a shadow over the moon of your heart. Let go of thinking Thanks! 41.222.8.161 (talk) 13:33, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I hope you'll get the response you want, but I will warn you that this desk is weak on South Asian languages. Marco polo (talk) 15:57, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I think the folks at WP:IND can help you with your request. Such a gentleman 19:48, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Another Latin title page

Hello, I'd love some help understanding the following Latin text from the title page of a book:

Radulphi / de / HENGHAM / Edwardi Regis I. / Capitalis olim Juſtitiarii / Summæ.

Magna Hengham, & Parva, Vul- / gò nuncupatæ nunc primùm ex / vet. Codd. Mſſ in lucem prodeunt.

Londini Biblioplarum Corpori execu- / ditur. M. DC. XVI.

The virgules represent line breaks. The book is by Sir Ralph de Hengham and consists of two texts, the Hengham Magna (Great Hengham) and the Hengham Parva (Small Hengham), but it appears the book as a whole is also called the Summæ though I don't know what this means because Google Translate suggests this means "final" or "supreme". Thanks! — SMUconlaw (talk) 17:33, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I'll give this a go. The translation is something like "Collected Works of Ralph de Hengham, formerly Chief Justice of King Edward I, commonly named Hengham Magna and Parva, now for the first time brought to light from the ancient manuscripts. London. Published by the Printers' Company, 1616". "Hengham magna" and "Hengham parva" are the (Latin) names of collections of lectures on legal matters written by Hengham. Marco polo (talk) 18:53, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Ah, so vet. is vetus ("old") and Codd. is the plural of cōdex – what word would that be? — SMUconlaw (talk) 19:28, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Codices (although the syntax of the title would require ablative codicibus if it were spelled out). Deor (talk) 19:31, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I looked up Wiktionary but it gives the plural forms as cōdicēs (nominative and accusative), cōdicum (genitive and ablative), and cōdicibus (dative and vocative), and none of that makes any sense to me! — SMUconlaw (talk) 19:35, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

You misread, I think: The Wiktionary table gives the plurals as cōdicēs (nominative, accusative, and vocative), cōdicum (genitive), and cōdicibus (dative and ablative). But the English plural you would use in translating the title would be codices, if that's what you meant. Deor (talk) 19:41, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Whoops. No, I meant the plural form of the Latin word. And would Mſſ thus be manuscrīptīs (ablative, according to Wiktionary)? Does vetus codicibus manuscrīptīs mean "ancient books of manuscripts"? Fascinating stuff. — SMUconlaw (talk) 19:46, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, vetus has to be ablative plural as well to agree with the objects of ex, so it would be ex veteribus codicibus manuscriptis. I'd render it as "from old handwritten codices" or the like. Deor (talk) 21:29, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

The title is quoted here with vett., hence it is vetustissimis (oldest). Note also Bibliopolarum and excuditur. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 21:33, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

You were right about the typos in Bibliopolarum and excuditur but the version of Hengham's works I was looking at has vet. instead of vett. — SMUconlaw (talk) 16:09, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Here a bibliographic record (including a contemporary translation of the title). --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 01:11, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for highlighting this interesting book. However, I don't see an English translation of the Latin book title. Am I missing something? — SMUconlaw (talk) 04:25, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Public Domain with Restrictions?

Hi.

The content of some articles contain matieral from the Jewish Encyclopedia. The JE webpage says that the material is in the public domain, but at the same time it places restrition on its use. Is the content which they claim is unedited original pd or not? Samuel Stevens — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.63.1.220 (talk) 18:37, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

The Jewish Encyclopedia website also marks every scanned image as copyrighted, but they apparently have no legal claim to do so, see Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp. and the many project pages that link thereto, so I don't know how credible their copyright claims are. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 19:51, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Japanese translation request

Is anyone interested in translating the blue-linked content in this edit so it can be added to the Japanese article at ja:デトロイト大都市圏における日本人の歴史?

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 18:57, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

December 4

Sung Spanish "muy"

Do you sustain the "u" or the "y"? According to wikt:muy#Spanish both /muj/ and /mwi/ are acceptable pronunciations. If it matters, this is a 16th-century piece by Cristóbal de Morales. -- BenRG (talk) 00:21, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

It's likely to be conditioned by whether the following word begins with a vowel or not--but I can't imagine sustaining the word in any case. It's not normally phrase-final. μηδείς (talk) 01:29, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

The text is "Juicio fuerte será dado y muy cruel de muerte." I was surprised to see "muy" sustained for so long too, but it is. The tenors have a four-note melisma on it, more than on any other syllable. -- BenRG (talk) 01:46, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

My first impression assuming I have the meter right was to go with muí, but I can see múy as well. Best I can say is I would try to avoid "mwi" as a literal consonant followed by "ee". That sounds totally off. Shame Miss Bono is not posting. I tried, but I can't find the other user she would sometimes communicate with for an opinion. μηδείς (talk) 02:17, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

English to Japanese translation help

Hello. Can anyone translate the following into Japanese:

"Please clear the firing range. Weapons demonstration commencing in 3, 2, 1..."

I'm going to be speaking this out loud (this would be for a video, kind of a like a PA message), so please also provide it in roman characters. Tips on pronunciation and where stress should be placed etc. would also be much appreciated. Thank you.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 02:14, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Noun-to-Adjective derivations using the '-ed' suffix.

Hello, again!

In the English language—it has long been established—one can readily form adjectives from the past-participles of verbs, even to the point of forming stand-alone words.

e.g.

"He had truly loved her."

"She was a much-loved woman."

Many times, however, people sort-of cut out the verb "middleman," and use the ubiquitous -ed suffix to form adjectives directly from nouns.

e.g.

"Alicia's dark-haired son walks, hand-in-hand, with that red-sweatered girl, over there." —Even though there is no such verb as to hair or to sweater.

I have two quick questions about this usage: One, is it unique to English, or would someone also encounter it in other, Indo-European languages? And two, does it "work" when said nouns are homographs of irregular verbs?

Namely, could somebody call a police officer who walks two different beats, across a city, "a two-beated cop"? Likewise, would anybody ever refer to a mountain with five manicured, ski-runs as "five-runned, winter resort?"

Pine (talk) 11:11, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

For the last bit, your two quoted words (beated and runned) seem cromulent to me. That is, while a bit non standard, they are understandable in context without any explanation. They seem to work within the understood rules of English grammar, even if they are a bit awkward. --Jayron32 12:11, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

They're awkward because they don't work; what works is: a two-beat cop and a five-run resort. Someone else will know the grammatical reasoning here. However, it returns to your original query if it's a four-legged cop (police dog). In English (as other languages no doubt) usage makes the most sense and exceptions are the rule. Manytexts (talk) 12:51, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

But, Manytexts, your versions only work because they are phrases with numbers. A tough-beat cop and a steep-run resort don't work, or at any rate are at least as infelicitous as a tough-beated cop and a steep-runned resort. I think Jayron32's answer is right. --ColinFine (talk) 13:08, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Here are some musings and attempted break-down (by first and second part) of "Double-Barrelled Adjectives", distinguishing "noun-ed" elements from past participles, by Nigel J. Ross, teacher at the City of Milan School for Interpreters and Translators, fwiw. ---Sluzzelin talk 15:51, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

• This question was asked within the last year or so. A search of the archives may help. μηδείς (talk) 16:09, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

I see another hazard where the noun being used as a verb is a homograph of a regular verb with a different meaning. (If I run out of matches, am I poorly matched? If I refuse to have a bow put in my hair, does that mean I remain unbowed? If somebody agrees to give me some refuse, have I been refused?)  Card Zero  (talk) 19:59, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Seems to me, these are all cromulently correct! in that all tangential meanings are true. You would be poorly matched with a smoker, not bloodied, but unbowed for sure, and yes, you have been refused.

At ColinFine, is it then, a five-fingered discount (meaning the lifted object) or a five-finger discount (meaning the act of lifting it)? Manytexts (talk) 22:08, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, neither of those phrases conveys anything to me. I'm not aware of a meaning of "discount" which is an object which can be lifted. --ColinFine (talk) 23:14, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

"Five-finger discount" is a euphemism for shoplifting. It could likewise be called "five-fingered discount", but as far as I know "five-finger" is more commonly used. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:33, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

• As for similar usages in other languages, the formation is not universal. In Zulu, adjectives are a small closed class. Instead of using participles as adjectives, adjectival constructions are made with relative verb phrases, one would have to say, approximately, a beast which has feet which are four. The construction does exist in Latin: e.g., vagina dentata. μηδείς (talk) 17:28, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Exists in French. Le chat botté (Puss in Boots). Itsmejudith (talk) 09:48, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

• I had clean forgotten about the allegorical toothed birth-canal! Unless I err, there never was such a verb as dentare.  :)

At any rate, thanks a lot for all of the responses! I now see that between its classical, Latin usage, and its living, French one, this very much constitutes an established part of Indo-European grammar, and not merely a vulgar anglicism (as I incorrectly assumed). Now, unless someone requests my presence, I shall purchase a refreshment at the cheap-drinked store, across the street. Pine (talk) 13:33, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

December 5

Use of there is/are after adverbials

First of all, I'm not a native speaker. Although my English is quite fluent and I use it in my job every day, there is one thing I'm still not sure about. Is it correct (in standard BrE or AmE) to simply omit there in sentences like On my desk there are some books ? Thanks in advance. -- 87.123.216.155 (talk) 14:48, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it is quite acceptable to omit there, especially if you want to emphasize the desk rather than the books (that is, as opposed to saying, "Some books are on my desk"). See Inversion (linguistics)#Subject–verb inversion. Deor (talk) 15:08, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

It's perfectly fine grammatically, but it seems incomplete by itself. I would expect some further thought, like: "On my desk are some books. Could you bring me the one lying on top of the others?" or: "On my desk are some books; please be careful moving them if you intend to work there." In either case you could retain the "there". If you simply said "On my desk are some books." I would likely respond, "And?" I also agree with Deor's point. μηδείς (talk) 17:18, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

That's an irrelevant comment, Medeis. Usually, saying anything has both a context and a point to it. The OP was asking about the grammatical correctness of this particular sentence. In answer to the question, 'there' can be used or not used. Both are OK. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 18:53, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

So, you are disagreeing with me? μηδείς (talk) 20:22, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

For me, either would work formally. In casual speech, omitting it would sound like "On my desker some books." But I think you're most likely to hear "there's some" (on my desk there's some books), despite grammatical incorrectness. It's engrained enough that I seriously doubt I would catch it while proofreading formal writing. Post-college, urban Midwest sociolect/dialect. Lsfreak (talk) 22:21, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Latin motto

I'm a bit puzzled about the Latin motto engraved below the crucifix in this picture. There are a couple words that I can't make out at all and the grammar of the second sentence also seems odd (go and remember our what?). My best guess at a transcription is:

eni locusquo a teposiiis rogari vos purate. Ite: et recordemini nostri.

Donald Hosek (talk) 21:48, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

An odd mix of upper and lower case. I think that fourth word is "reposilis", which I assume has something to do with resting. The last word might be nosiri or posiri. Where is this? Is it on someone's tomb? Or on a church building? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:25, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

I can't make out even as much as that, but I know that nostri is also the genitive of 'nos' (us), so I suspect the end means "remember us". I also think the second word is probably 'locusque', and the fourth 'repositis'. --ColinFine (talk) 23:11, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

And the capitalized letters probably form some kind of Latin number, possibly the year or something like that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:16, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Name for that is Chronogram... -- AnonMoos (talk) 00:33, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I think you aren't looking at the big version of the picture (click "original file"). Unless you're suggesting some kind of carving error, like copying from a text supplied in illegible handwriting. "Loqusquo" clearly ends in o, not e ... but I guess it could be "repositis", because the letter t is carved in an indistinct way throughout, with a tiny vestigial crossbar and only the faintest curve at the foot.  Card Zero  (talk) 11:06, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

• I suspect "teposilis" is actually antepositis and that letters are missing from the beginnings and ends here. μηδείς (talk) 01:07, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

There are no numbers there at all, there's just some weird capitalization. I read it as "En! Locus quo a repositis rogari vos purate. Ite: et recordemini nostri." There's nothing missing around the edges, but it seems like there is something grammatically essential that isn't there. Maybe "repositis rogari vos purate" is "rogati vos putare" or "putate". I'm still trying to make sense of that, but the rest of it says "Behold! The place where... Go: and remember us." (Or "remember me.") I thought it might be a Bible quote, but apparently not. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:51, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

de:Chronogramm has many examples. First try: 1778 (Prague): enI LoCVs qVo a reposItIs rogarI Vos pVtate Ite et reCordDeMInI nostrI (= MDCCLVVVVIIIIIIII = translation wanting). --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 10:42, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Oh! I see what you mean now. Maybe the month and day is in there too, but there seems to be too many Vs. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:18, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't want to speak too soon, but encoding multiple numbers (day, month, and year) in the form of scrambled numerals which have to be summed in arbitrary combinations seems less practical than summing them all to get a single number (1778).  Card Zero  (talk) 11:33, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Oh yeah. Neat. I don't think I've ever come across chronograms before. I guess that's why the Latin seems a bit tortured, they have to come up with something that will fit a chronogram? Adam Bishop (talk) 11:37, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Wow, between chronograms and other, cool stuff such as sigla, it really saddens me that we don't all speak Latin, anymore. Pine (talk) 13:42, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

There's still only Latin for prefaces in many Oxford Classical Texts (although, as that page says, many texts since 1990 have used English instead). It's funny to have to read something like "My university, Otago, was kind in their support for this project" in a language that was already "dead" before New Zealand was even established. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 22:07, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I know so little Latin that I really should just shut up, but "rogari" strikes me as a name. I'm guessing at something like, "This is the place where reposes rogar who was purified by you. Go, and remember us." Looie496 (talk) 03:59, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Rogari could be a passive infinitive ("to be asked")... AnonMoos (talk) 06:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, it's rogari or the past participle rogati. "The place where you believe you are invited by the dead"? I don't know. Adam Bishop (talk) 09:02, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

This took me a while to make a guess at. That first "I" has got to be an exclamation point, not an "I". So: "en! locus quo a repositis rogari vos putare. ite: et recordemini nostri." My translatese take:

"Behold! A place where, by having brought restoration, you are sought to purify. Go, and remember us."

Better English: "Behold! A place where you are sought to bring purification through restoration. Go, and remember us."

Nevermind, that's mixing up the main verb. Hmm, I'm stumped. "the place to be sought where, through restoration, you are purified"? --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 10:30, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Would "redemption" be a better word than "restoration"? It fits the theology better - I don't know about the Latin. Alansplodge (talk) 14:09, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps, "reconciled". -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:09, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

December 6

Opposite of philanthropy?

Opposite of philanthropy? --78.156.109.166 (talk) 19:50, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Misanthropy. --Nicknack009 (talk) 22:00, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

One might be tempted to say capitalism (using the popular rather than the literal meaning of "philanthropy"), or profiteering for a more politically neutral term. See also war profiteering, cartel, monopoly, Rachmanism, etc. Tevildo (talk) 13:17, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

In fact, Exploitation is probably the best single antonym. Tevildo (talk) 13:19, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't see how "profiteering" is more neutral than "capitalism". Many capitalists have been known to be philanthropists as well. Bill Gates, for example. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, I intended profiteering to refer to general abuse of a dominant market position to make more money than is "fair", in some abstract sense. However, my main point is that misanthropy is not (in popular usage) the opposite of philanthropy. For example, Howard Hughes is the very type and acme of a misanthropist, but he still engaged in the very philanthropic act of endowing the Howard Hughes Medical Institute. And Peter Rachman himself was, so I understand, a very outgoing, affable and socially-adept person - the opposite of a misanthrope - but nobody would describe him as a philanthropist. Tevildo (talk) 19:57, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

• Next time google the antonym. μηδείς (talk) 02:23, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't have Google. --78.156.109.166 (talk) 20:38, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

What is the name of...

a glass that can make things look bigger? I've forgotten. --78.156.109.166 (talk) 20:06, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Do you mean a Magnifying glass (convex lens), or something less obvious? Dbfirs 20:10, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Magnifying glass was what I was looking for, I figured it out by myself shortly after I wrote my question. --78.156.109.166 (talk) 20:14, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, memory is strange. I increasingly have the same problem. Admitting that I can't remember something seems to trigger my brain to make the appropriate connections that were somehow missing when I was actively searching for them. Dbfirs 09:51, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Uh... Did I mention memory? --78.156.109.166 (talk) 20:37, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

December 7

17th century French: "Tracy"

Can someone translate to English the sub caption for this map of western New France (lower right corner)? What does "TRACY" mean, here? Thanks. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Les nations de Tracy "the Nations of Tracy". I do not know what it means, maybe something connected to him.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 15:33, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Oh, I see. So, its a list of "nations": (seemingly odd, that the other two, Illinois and Iroquois, are native tribes). Can you make out the rest of it, "people" and so forth? Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:42, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

A nation is "n historically constituted, stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life, ethnicity and/or psychological make-up manifested in a common culture" (Wiktionary), so it is not uncommon to find "tribes" of people referred to as "nations". Note that some of the aboriginal peoples in Canada are termed "First Nations". — Cheers, JackLee 16:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I do not find it odd that they are listed as nations, but that Tracy was among them, but it looks like there is an answer for that below. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:16, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I've taken the liberty of moving that page to reflect his full name, which up till now failed to include the Tracy part we're discussing here. -- Jack of Oz 16:26, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Here's an early-18th-century book that lists the "Nations de Tracy" among various native tribes ("diverse peoples in Canada and Louisiana"}. The map you're inquiring about shows them as inhabiting a rather extensive region around the western Great Lakes, but I'm having trouble finding further mentions of them under this name. Deor (talk) 15:51, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Most helpful. Yes, it looks like the "Nations de Tracy" are around western Lake Superior; the "Nations de Ilinois", around Lake Michigan; and the "Cinc Nations" Iroquois in the east on this map. Thx. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Here is the transcription:

PARTIE OCCIDENTALE du CANADA ou de la NOUVELLE FRANCE où sont les Nations des ILINOIS, de TRACY, les IROQUOIS, et plusieurs autres Peuples ;

Avec la LOUISIANE Nouvellement decouverte etc.
Dressée sur les Memoires le plus Nouveaux.
Par le P. Coronelli Cosmographe de la Ser. Repib. de VENICE Corrigée et augmentée par le Sr. Tillemon ; et Dédiée À Monsieur l'Abbé BAUDARD À PARIS
Chez JB Nolin Sur le Quay de l'Horloge du Palais Vers le Pont Neuf à l'Enseigne de la Place des Victoires
Avec Privilege du Roy

1688

Translation a little later if somebody does not outrun me already.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 16:10, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

With regard to "Ser.", see the first bulleted item in Most Serene Republic#Historical states. Deor (talk) 17:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Added your transcription to the image file. Very helpful. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:25, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Just say the word

Something I've often wondered about:

If it takes more than just saying "I insult you" to insult someone, or "I kill you" to actually kill someone, or "I hypothesise" to wax hypothetical, why is "I apologise" or "My apologies" considered sufficient for an apology, or "Congratulations!" sufficient to congratulate someone, or "My condolences" sufficient to express one's sorrow? -- Jack of Oz 16:38, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

See speech act, and specifically performatives, which are things like "I hereby declare you man and wife" or "I dub thee Sir Jack". This is actually an important topic in philosophy and linguistics. Steven Pinker goes on about it in various places. μηδείς (talk) 17:34, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

It reminds me of when people write to newspapers etc saying "I wish to complain in the strongest possible terms about ", to which my response would be: "well, go on then". AndrewWTaylor (talk) 20:19, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

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