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Please see my talk page

On why I don't want you posting there anymore, except of course official notices. And I don't intend to post on yours anymore unless official notices are needed. Thanks. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 15:20, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Do you really think I give a crap? I've not got your talk page watchlisted & have no intention of getting further involved in the dispute. You know both of these things - I've told you before - so why on earth you think that I might post on your page again is beyond me. So this looks like just another screwed-up, point-y post from you, doesn't it? - Sitush (talk) 16:09, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

You have left two new posts on my talk page since I told you to stop. Neither we're official messages and both could have been left on the relevant talk or other pages. Please stop. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:07, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Vellalar

Hi Sitush, Have redone the Vellalar article. Need to expand the (new) section on Mutts; which will do once I return to base next month. In the meantime, please go thru Vellalar and fix anything amiss. Also need to redo the article on Velirs. Will be glad for your involvement in the Velir article. Thanks.--Mayasutra (talk) 17:56, 17 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Hello Sitush, Deleted the section on Mutts (for now) in Vellalar article. Will contribute to that section once I return. Please also go thru Velirs to fix things amiss. Have asked for citations and made notes in the Velirs article. Need to expand the article with more historical content though (for now clarity is poor). --Mayasutra (talk) 19:33, 17 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Hello Sitush, Rajkris has deleted content which I had thoroughly referenced, detailed and arranged in proper sections in the Vellalar article. Instead he reinstated the old version where he either misquoted or partially quoted references. Request you or Qwyrxian to look into it. Thanks.--Mayasutra (talk) 21:27, 17 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

He has removed my contents without any discussion. He's breaking wiki rules.Rajkris (talk) 21:38, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Wrong. Rajkris, you neither reply to points raised in talk page, nor do your citations support the sentences you make. You make your own fanciful interpretations such as this sentence "However, the Vellalars are still considered to be the most likely descendants of the Velir, etymological interpretations notwithstanding" (see this) So now I suppose either Sitush or Qwyrxian or both will intervene or this will go to arbitration. Sitush and Qwyrxian, the issue involves two articles, Vellalars and Velirs (Rajkris deleted well referenced content for both articles). Thanks.--Mayasutra (talk) 21:46, 17 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Please note Rajkris is edit warring on Kshatriya. He is reverting without discussing.-Mayasutra (talk) 22:23, 17 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

He is also edit warring on Velirs. Same issue. --Mayasutra (talk) 22:24, 17 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

I have added refs in talk page of Velirs. Regarding Kshatriya, I have discussed in talk page, I will add my comments on your talk page very soon.Rajkris (talk) 23:04, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Regarding Kshatriya, you have not discussed at all. My previous response to you also went unanswered. When are you going to reply? Looks like you want to keep reverting and then keep claiming you will reply. Why don't you reply then revert to your claims? Regarding your most recent change on Vellalar both Sailendra Nath Sen and Venkatasubramanian do not say Vellalars are of the ancient Tamil order (Chera/Chola/Pandya/Sangam era). Where is the reference for your claim that Vellalars "had close relations with the different royal dynasties"; and that "Literary, archeological sources trace the origin of the Vellalars to a group of royal house chieftains called Vel or Velir."? Already explained to you Iravatham Mahadevan does not use the word Kshatriya so why are you again mentioning the term Yadu "Kshatriya" clan; especially when Iravatham Mahadevan makes it clear he thinks Velirs are aryanized descendants of original non-aryan people. Moreover that part has to do with the Velir article. Why is it being mentioned in the Vellalar article. Made it clear to you Rajkris, if you want to claim Vellalar descended from the Velir you must A) Provide info / details, if vellalars (all present-day claimants of vellalar caste) follow or followed indo-aryan kshatriya rituals until the recent past? B) Produce a precolonial or historical proof (inscription / epigraph) linking Vellalar to Velir. Merely quoting modern writers of colonial period who sought such a connection won't do. Why did you delete content from pingalanikanthu and tivakaram stating Vellala was a synonym for Vaishyas and Shudras in the 10th century? Why did you delete info from 1891 census? Why did you revert citation provided for other castes claiming Vellala status and intermarrying with Vellala families?--Mayasutra (talk) 00:33, 18 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

I have other sources I will add by this week. All your refs are present. Else please add. Regarding Kshatriya, I will add my comments this week.Rajkris (talk) 00:45, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Now Vellalar article is fixed. Unless you meddle with it again. Next is Velir and Kshatriya. For Kshatriya, first you provide your answer. You were given ample time to respond. Unless you answer, you have no right to keep reverting. Merely claiming you will answer at some point of time won't do. First answer then revert. So am reinstating Kshatriya article to former version. Next is Velir article for which you reverted all the referenced content. For Velir too, first answer then revert. Take a look at the notes within the article asking you to (1) quote verbatim from the sources, and (2) explain relationship between Satyaputras and Velirs (since Satyaputras are mentioned as a group distinct from the Cholas and Cheras which are made up of Velir chieftains). --Mayasutra (talk) 01:16, 18 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

@Mayasutra: and @Rajkris:. I get after Rajkris for removing material that has been sourced when Mayasutra comes along and does the same exact thing. I don't know either one of you. I don't know who is right, wrong or somewhere in between. All I know is both of you complain about the other person and turn around and do the exact same thing. Both of you are behaving badly.

I've reverted the last Vellalar edits made by Mayasutra for removal of sourced material. I've reverted the edits and reverts on Kshatriya to the December 15th edits, the last edit before you both went at it.

If either one of you edits Kshatriya, Velirs or Vellalar, I'll block the person for edit warring. You have a choice. You can talk together like civilized people then do mutually agreed upon edits or neither one of edits the pages. As Sitush unfortunately knows what is going on better than I do, he can chime in when he gets back from the hospital. Don't know if he is there or not, but after to reading what has been going on today, he probably did get sick and checked himself in.

Ok. I saw the message and stopped adding content to Vellalar. Please compare what Rajkris deleted and what I did. Finally Rajkris reinstated exactly my version in the Vellalar article, except the Intro. I had my reasons to delete what he wrote in the intro. Please check the Velirs talk page. Posted stuff for him less than 15 minutes ago. I expect Rajkris to discuss those posts before entering content into the Vellalar and Velir articles. And if I know Sitush, surely he did not get sick reading this; for there are worse things Sitush has handled. I'd rather wait for Sitush to get well and handle this. Thanks.--Mayasutra (talk) 05:55, 18 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Hi, before discussing, I will first readd the ref contents removed by Mahasutra without discussion in Vellalar (still some to add) & Velirs pages.Rajkris (talk) 22:22, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Rajkris, No means no. Do not add any material. Leave articles alone. Discuss with Mayasutra before making any changes. You two need to come to an agreement before doing any changes. Bgwhite (talk) 22:31, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Ok. But I just added in Velir what he has removed and added ref to support that. This is what you proposed me earlier.Rajkris (talk) 22:36, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

I did propose that before, then both of started more edit warring. Instead of the adding, reverting, adding, reverting cycle, you two must talk first. I reverted your edits. Note: I left two articles in a state where Rajkris edited last and one article where Mayasutra edited last. Bgwhite (talk) 22:41, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi all, apologies for the delay. I'm not feeling too good right now (nothing to do with hospital).

Bgwhite is correct: Rajkris and Mayasutra need to discuss the changes before implementing them. I'll try to get involved in any discussions but cannot promise when. Both articles have been subject to a lot of on-off disruption over a prolonged period and I have the feeling that it is not a black-and-white situation. When I do take a look at the talk pages, I'll be expecting to see refs to reliable sources and if any GBooks snippet views are among them then I'll be expecting co-operation in putting those views into context (ie: you'll need to be able to provide a copy of at least a couple of pages before and after the snippet and preferably the entire chapter). I'll also be expecting the sources to be modern and preferably academic - not stuff from the Raj period or newspapers etc. - Sitush (talk) 05:44, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Hello Sitush, Since you are involved now, I'd prefer it if all of us discussed points on talk page but you do the actual writing in the article. That way neither myself nor Rajkris can get into an edit war or get biased or unfactual or counterfactual. I do have internet in some places where am traveling but cannot contribute to discussions pertaining points in an article, unless I return to base next month. Thanks.--Mayasutra (talk) 07:04, 21 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Precious again

Elites in India
Thank you, Labutnum of the Encyclopedia, for quality articles on people in India Under British Rule, such as James Tod, and for calmly carrying on, - you are an awesome Wikipedian!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:59, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

A year ago, you were the 339th recipient of my PumpkinSky Prize, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:11, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Well deserved. Binksternet (talk) 14:59, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks you both. - Sitush (talk) 11:08, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

AfDs -- technical question

I'm trying to figure out the relationships between WP:WikiProject Biography/Deletion sorting & WP:WikiProject Deletion sorting/People & the AfDs which get listed in Category:Proposed deletion and WP:AFD. (I do see him (Riggenbach) listed in CAT:AFD/B.) It looks like the first two are actual AfD discussions. Am I correct in thinking we have three forums for such nominations? (If you have a short answer, I would appreciate it. If it is more involved, please ignore and I will figure this out myself.) Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 18:07, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I've no idea. I've never really looked into delsorting but thought that its purpose was akin to categorising, causing an AfD to appear in various related sets that were in turn transcluded by various Wikiprojects. That said, wasn't Riggenbach the nom that that Twinkle barfed? Maybe that is where the problems crept in? - Sitush (talk)

Okay. Thanks for your thoughts. – S. Rich (talk) 19:49, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Articles for Deletion

Hello Sitush. Hope you remember me. I have some doubts about nominating a few "related" wiki articles for deletion. The articles that i intend to report are Tamil American & Tamil Australian. While i understand that the terminology "British Tamil", although unofficial, has been mentioned in news articles, the other two, namely Tamil American & Tamil Australian are totally unheard of. Neither of these countries (United States & Australia) have used these terminologies for "census, immigration & other govt" purposes nor have their media used them in their articles & reports. These people have always been called/listed/reported as "Indian American/Australian" or "Sri Lankan American/Australian" based on their country of origin. The sources cited in these articles "have not mentioned them as official terms", but they simply contain some statistical data regarding the number of tamil speakers. I'm sure this factor doesn't qualify for the creation of these articles in wikipedia. I haven't seen a "Gujarati/Malayali/Sindhi American" wiki article and i wonder what's the need for editors to create such pages. Are we going to allow these frenzied creations/edits of some lingo fanatics? Do they fall under "no indication of importance deletion criteria"? I guess Kannada American & Bengali American too qualify under the same category. Thanks in advance. Hari7478 (talk) 22:24, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

They look very dodgy to me. You're probably aware that there is a lot of coatracking of Tamil subjects, although I've never managed to work out why that group is so particularly prone to it. However, I think you should probably raise these two articles at WT:INB - find out if there is indeed more notability of the subject than is apparent to you or me. Then take them to AfD if there isn't. - Sitush (talk) 11:15, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. But i'm wondering how do i go about with it. Well, i know the procedure. But... could you suggest a title/heading? Hari7478 (talk) 20:31, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

I've opened a pre-AfD discussion here. Let's just get a feel for the notability before pushing it to AfD> - Sitush (talk) 20:44, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I've reposted the same in the WT:India noticeboard. I've also reported the Kannada American & Bengali American pages. Hari7478 (talk) 20:54, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi

I would be grateful if you would be willing to clean up the article Islam and Sikhism — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nawabmalhi (talk • contribs) 23:12, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

No, sorry. I don't have the time or inclination to look at these comparative religion articles. - Sitush (talk) 11:12, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Minor clans/gotras

Hi! You have been PRODing and getting many minor clan and gotra articles deleted. Its evident from existence of various such article that they are of interest to some people. (That "some" is true to say if they all are not created by socks.) In some cases you also have passing references of names in various books. Given that they are of interest to people and that we have some reference that such a name is used to refer to some clan/gotra, why not simply redirect it somewhere? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 05:05, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

I do redirect, if it is reliably sourced etc. I haven't PROD'ed that many but I was told at VPP that this was the acceptable way to go. Don't forget that notability requires discussion about the subject in multiple independent RS - if none exist then the article should not be here. There is no article for my last name, why should there be one any other non-notable last name? - Sitush (talk) 11:05, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Well... i haven't followed your all PRODs. So if you say you have PRODed only those that really were worthless, then i will believe you. But hey, notability for having articles is way much different than of having a redirect. Are you sure you don't have article of your surname? There is a disambiguation-like page present. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 14:44, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

An article about a last name would have to discuss the name, eg: Sharma. That article also illustrates another potential usage which sometimes is seen, ie: what effectively amounts to a disambig page that lists all people with the name who do have articles. In the absence of notable people or information concerning the name itself, the thing would have no place here. Just existing as a name is not something of any great significance, nor is an undiscussed passing mention/namedrop (sic) in rubbishy Raj sources.

An added complication with these gotra articles is that they often could be applicable to more than one caste, which makes redirecting impossible unless some sort of sourcing exists. - Sitush (talk) 15:29, 20 December 2013 (UTC).

Merry Christmas

Soham (talk) is wishing you a Merry Christmas! This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Happy New Year!

Spread the Christmas cheer by adding {{subst:Xmas3}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Soham (talk) 13:43, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Kumar Suresh Singh

Survey of people of India by KS Singh is not relible source? what sort of sources one should refer to while using citations for certain gotras/clans etc, could you eloborate on that?.ThanksMkrestin (talk) 10:44, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

The People of India is a massive set comprising two series. The "national" series is reliable and was published by Oxford University Press; the "states" series went through numerous publishers and had little oversight from Singh (who died part way through anyway). It is the latter series that is not WP:RS. It has been discussed at WP:RSN somewhere in the past but the gist is that it basically reprinted content originally written by Raj gentleman-ethnographers/historians such as H. H. Risley and James Tod, often without even acknowledging that it was doing so. Anything used from the states series needs first to be checked against those old, unreliable sources etc, eg: to ensure that it is not plagiarised amateurism. The entire PoI project was also massively influenced by political considerations: it was not an independent exercise and was closely tied to events such as the Mandal Commission, meaning that much of its output, as with the Raj publications, was driven more by a desire to set a political story than to investigate using accepted methods of anthropology. - Sitush (talk) 10:54, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, to answer your main query: modern peer reviewed ones published by academic presses etc. Most of these gotras are simply not notable and only appear as passing mentions anyway. There's a related thread regarding this & PRODs two or three sections up above. - Sitush (talk) 10:58, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

What if the sun is shining and it's raining dogs - or the cats are shining and the rain sees dogs - or something like that

India Against Corruption

Read your note on perceptions of "legal threats". It was because you again raised wandering into legalities that we felt obliged to clarify further - to you and to nobody else (perhaps we erred by not leaving that message on your personal talk page).

IAC has absolutely no problem with waiting till as long as WMF wants, provided all text linking and/or associating "India Against Corruption" with Anna Hazare's (Jan)Lokpal andolan (and some other relatively minor amendments) is removed simultaneously.

We shall record our detailed objections to all sources cited by you in this articile, and shall show how you have selectively manipulated sources to disparage us.

As mentioned we are also preparing a list of secondary sources/references where IAC is mentioned.Several of them seem to have been deleted from past versions of this article, again to disparage IAC and promote "Team Anna".

Finally IAC is not here to edit Misplaced Pages, We are here to get corrected palpably wrong statements concerning a certain scandal where IAC name was misused by a gang of persons and we are being regularly harassed online by mischievous forces like those anonymous persons in blogspot.com which another experienced Misplaced Pages editor has just seen fit to use as a reliable source in Misplaced Pages to further defame IAC.

PS: If you still believe that we are not the "India Against Corruption" - but some small raucous group of persons, you should seriously sit this session out. 2A00:2381:72D:0:8813:DF3A:8CFE:F9E (talk) 15:43, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Please read WP:RGW and don't post any more of this bilge here. You are threatening legal action all over the place despite having been made aware that the matter has been raised with the WMF legal people. I'm not frightened of you and neither you nor anyone else involved with that non-notable organisation can sue me but this is becoming ridiculous. You are repeating the same stuff across numerous forums and the only thing that is apparent from your tendentious efforts and those of AcorruptionfreeIndia before you is that no-one is seeing much merit in your claims. - Sitush (talk) 17:15, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

You review new pages?

That are related to indian-subjects? Thanks Bladesmulti (talk) 16:36, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Sometimes. I'm not really a new page patroller or WP:AFC reviewer but I've dabbled. - Sitush (talk) 19:57, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Do me a favor, have a look at this article Zoroastrianism in India, and see if it still requires patroling, because i never received related notification. And patrol if you think it should be. Thanks Bladesmulti (talk) 16:20, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Marking it as patrolled is a housekeeping exercise. There are some problems with the article, principally relating to a lack of sources and some phrasing issues. But I'm very tired at the moment and would need also to check for things such as copyright violations and whether or not we already have an article for the subject. I'm not able to clear the patrol tag because of that.

If I were you, and assuming that you have not committed some serious sin as described above, I'd try to sort out the numerous unsourced statements and then just let things take their usual course. It really doesn't matter all that much whether the flag is cleared now or in six months' time provided that the article complies with our policies. I'll take another look at it some time when I've not just taken my meds. - Sitush (talk) 21:08, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Riggenbach

FYI, I was going through the Riggenbach links myself IOT remove. I did Thoreau and see that Rand has been done. Do you have a suggestion on how we might avoid duplicate searches?How about I do N-Z articles. (Or you can do them all!) Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 19:45, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

You just go ahead. Anything that avoids me taking more flak from the CIR brigade ;) I've got 27 tabs open in Firefox here re: India articles and really need to start using the content shown on some of them before my head (or PC) explodes. - Sitush (talk) 19:52, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Okay. I got about 70 hits on my search. So the edit count will continue to zoom upwards! (BTW, what is "CIR"?) – S. Rich (talk) 20:09, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

WP:CIR. No names, no pack drill. - Sitush (talk) 20:11, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Block of Rajkris

Sitush, I have blocked Rajkris for 48 hours for edit warring. In the above discussion Vellalar, I warned both Rajkris and Mayasutra that, "If either one of you edits Kshatriya, Velirs or Vellalar, I'll block the person for edit warring" if the edit wasn't done per discussion. Rajkris made an edit that you reversed saying, "I thought that the idea was we would all talk this through before adding stuff?".

If you don't agree with the block, please tell me. If you believe the time period of the block should be shorter or longer, please tell me. In the future, if you believe either editor should be blocked, please tell me and I will investigate to see if it is warrantied. Bgwhite (talk) 01:49, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

@Bgwhite:, thanks for letting me know. I've had run-ins with both of these contributors in the past and negotiations tend to take months rather than days. I'm off to bed but will have a think. My gut feeling is that a lesser time might be appropriate because the previous EW block was so long ago & the principle of escalating lengths can be punitive (imo) in such circumstances. But a message needs to be sent given what seems to be a blatant case of ploughing one's own furrow. A few hours of sleep and thought on my part will do no harm to Rajkris or the articles. - Sitush (talk) 02:42, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

@Bgwhite:, would you consider reducing the block to 24 hours? It is a long time since they were blocked previously and they have done some good stuff along the way. I know that Mayasutra is travelling but Rajkris was given considerable leeway for similar reasons at Talk:Tamil Kshatriya and perhaps if they are reminded of that then they'll understand things better. - Sitush (talk) 14:44, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Barnstar

		The Barnstar of Integrity
		Keep going! Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:10, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Ha! I'm reminded of the office notice that says "you don't have to be mad to work here but it helps". I'll be glad when this farrago is resolved but, alas, I doubt that it will ever really go away. That's the problem when dealing with activists. - Sitush (talk) 14:38, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Copy-edit request

Hi Sitush, could you please look at Dharmender Singh article, and make necessary changes if any? Regards. — Bill william compton 04:43, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

I've had a go. What do you think? - Sitush (talk) 11:34, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

It looks better now. Thanks. There are a few facts I'd like to clarify though:

• All India Senior School Certificate Examination is for 12th grade.
• "electorate comprises mainly Muslims", from what I have found, Seemapuri has a large Muslim population but not a Muslim major seat.
• "Koli's supporters from the Aam Aadmi Party created affray outside the police station after a case was registered against him", why this sentence was removed?
• If the seat is exclusively reserved for the Dalits, then doesn't it imply that Singh is a Dalit? — Bill william compton 15:51, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

• AISSCE is 10th or 12th grade according to our article on that thing. He definitely left at 10th per his affidavit but our article for him had an education certificate that apparently isn't even awarded in Delhi. The solution might be just to remove mention of the certificate, ie: "He left school at 10th grade".
• The sources I've seen - including those cited - say it is mostly Muslim
• It was a Hindi source and, frankly, people protest at the drop of a hat in India - no big deal unless they took over the police station or wounded some police officers etc
• I've asked about the Dalit issue at WT:INB. I'm not convinced that all members of Scheduled Castes are necessarily dalits. The seat is reserved for SCs. - Sitush (talk) 15:58, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Article: Khatri

I left one note in talk page of Khatri article. Please look into it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.139.128.14 (talk) 11:54, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Will do, thanks. - Sitush (talk) 12:21, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Santosh Koli

Hi, would you be able to sort out or explain something that has been puzzling me about Santosh Koli's candidature? The page says that she was standing for a reserved seat, which seems to suggest that it was one reserved for women candidates, but after her death her brother won the seat. Was it perhaps not a reserved seat? I hope that you understand this material better than I do. Thanks. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 14:46, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

I linked that phrase earlier today in the article, although you may not have noticed yet. Reservation in India is mostly concerned with caste issues, ie: positive discrimination for communities that have been historically repressed etc. - Sitush (talk) 14:49, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I hadn't noticed that India's reserved system has such broad criteria. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 16:40, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Re:

Isn't he notable for that ?. Most newspapers and other material and even his biography on the AAP page quote him as a former Indian Revenue Service officer. I feel this is a significant element of his notability. Uncletomwood (talk) 08:02, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

I think it is about weight. He is now best known as a politician, although the lead rightly mentions his former IRS role also. Someone else changed it also and thus I guess you'd need to discuss on the article talk page if you want to get consensus for reinstating it. - Sitush (talk) 08:09, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Merry Christmas

	Happy Holidays!!
	From Hafspajen (talk) 15:44, 24 December 2013 (UTC) 12:15, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

List Of Kammas

Hello, list of kammas : those clans are kammas,, their descendents also there. All historians, books, .. Even indian government cencus record also tells that.. I saw those refs and put that — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.39.185.15 (talk) 01:19, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

That's fine provided that you actually cite some reliable sources to provide verifiability of the statements. Caste affiliations are a notoriously difficult area of Misplaced Pages and thus you should assume that a source is required rather than that it does not need verification. - Sitush (talk) 10:45, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

so, what type of source i want to put? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.37.225.59 (talk) 13:10, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

List of Chitpavans

Mr Sitush, Why would you delete names that are patently Chitpavan and include one (Bhimsen Joshi) who isn't? शम्भू२ (talk) 02:53, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Please see User:Sitush/Common#Castelists. - Sitush (talk) 10:46, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Yo Ho Ho

Dougweller (talk) is wishing you Seasons Greetings! Whether you celebrate your hemisphere's Solstice or Christmas, Diwali, Hogmanay, Hanukkah, Lenaia, Festivus or even the Saturnalia, this is a special time of year for almost everyone!

Spread the holiday cheer by adding {{subst:User:WereSpielChequers/Dec13}} to your friends' talk pages.

Dougweller (talk) 09:20, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

I'll settle for the bottle of rum! - Sitush (talk) 10:47, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Reference Errors on 25 December

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A cup of coffee for you!

Merry Christmas!! Satya301 (talk) 08:10, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Re: Sadhu Yadav

And I didn't noticed the BLP issue, my focus was only on disamb issue. Sorry.--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haiderc_s 18:57, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Removal of references from Sankethi people

Could you please explain why you deleted all the references from Sankethi people please? Thanks. --Joshua Issac (talk) 21:13, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

The article needs independent reliable sources. Caste associations etc are only reliable for information about themselves (ie: about the association). - Sitush (talk) 21:16, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Association websites are not included in Misplaced Pages:Verifiability#Self-published sources, which specifically states "personal" websites to be in the list of sources considered to be a self-published. There is no justification in policy or guideline for the removal of a reference just because it is published by a cultural association. And what about the deletion of the reference to Dr Rajeswari Chatterjee's book, part of a project by the University of Nevada? --Joshua Issac (talk) 21:48, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

There is a consensus that association websites published by ethnic groups etc in India/Pakistan are unreliable. They're usually prone to puffery and cherry-picking and, for example, where did the population figure of 50,000 come from? Such websites are usually no more useful than other Misplaced Pages articles on those groups and, of course, those Misplaced Pages articles are generally rubbish. I'll take a look again at the Chatterjee book. I wonder if there is anything at Ethnologue also? - Sitush (talk) 22:11, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

My reason for removing the Chatterjee thing was "remove: it was only added 2 days ago and is already dead". Although unsaid, it seemed likely to me that the deadlink was also to a copyright violation rather like the frequently-seen links to copyvios hosted by scribd.com or on YouTube. There was no mention of the University of Nevada. Feel free to reinstate the thing if you can resolve the issues. - Sitush (talk) 10:35, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

It turns out that the url included some hidden characters after the ".pdf". I removed them in the address bar of my browser & the thing did indeed then work. I've reinstated the book with the revised url. - Sitush (talk) 10:56, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Christmas

Did you like your Christmas present? It's not like my feelings were hurt or anything, but I was hoping to get one from you as well. (I know that we said we wouldn't be exchanging gifts, cuz of the whole atheist jew thing, but I couldn't help feeling a bit glum.) Steeletrap (talk) 23:22, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

I'll be honest: with one exception, I've pretty much ignored any Christmas-related wikiloves etc. No need to feel left out, I guess, but you're aware that I don't have much enthusiasm for the idea generally. I'm not even sure why I replied to the one but vaguely recall some sort of opportunity for a poor stab at witticism - I'm not looking back up the page to find it. I do let people know that they are appreciated here etc but not because of some seasonal thing. Perhaps that makes me a grump.

OTOH, the season in part part the reason why I got the chance to meet my great-nephew for the first time today - he's a couple of months old but distance and my health have got in the way. Meeting him is something that I can get emotional about, in an oh so stiff upper-lip, British sort of way. Unfortunately for him, he seems to have inherited more of the looks from my side of the family than his father's ;) I gave him a lecture on reliable sources etc, of course, but only in a mammary context and I didn't bother with WP:V because that might involve explaining DNA tests. He's a gradely chap, as they say in Yorkshire and I can't deny that the sort-of primeval family instinct is alive and well in me! - Sitush (talk) 01:00, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

I didn't actually get you a present -- wiki or otherwise -- and was basically just being silly in hopes of getting your attention *blush*. I am skeptical of the existence of Santa ("Father Christmas", to use your fancy-pantsy British term), though concede the evidence here is stronger than the virgin birth thing -- I personally think Mary did it with the Angel who 'visited' her, as anyone would have, because *duh* it's an Angel.

I digress. But I must say that hearing the thing about your great-nephew was incredibly touching and genuine. Some of the most genuinely human and decent stuff I've seen on WP. Steeletrap (talk) 03:30, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Khatri

It seems that there is a consensus on the revision of the page which was undone. I see from the talk history that there are some people indulging in derogatory remarks on the page. Their views are counterproductive and should not be accounted for under the category of "consensus". I am not sure anyone involved on that page is a historian, be it others or the Misplaced Pages admin. We need to resolve this and your positive contribution will be helpful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Indianuser11 (talk • contribs) 17:19, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

There is no rush. It is the holiday season in many parts of the world and the information has been in the article for a long time. Qwyrxian thought it was a reliable source and we should await their reconsideration. - Sitush (talk) 17:23, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

The caste thing

There are sanctions for articles relating to caste right? And your dog has not moved since I last posted here, take it to the vet. Darkness Shines (talk) 22:50, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

WP:GS/Caste. Gyp has been to the vet recently: abscess on his arse courtesy of an insect deep in the long grass. That's the grass he used not to be able to go in until he grew out of his hayfever - it's a weird world. - Sitush (talk) 00:37, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Cheers, is there an article template for them? One I am working on will, I suspect, have people causing all manner of shite. I did not think it possible that a dog could get hay fever, funny old world indeed . You can yank those bugs out easily enough BTW, although from the arse perhaps the vet was a good shout, coulda been messy. Happy new year for when it arrives. Darkness Shines (talk) 00:44, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

I didn't even realise he'd been caught until several days later, by which time it was too late - the culprit had long gone. There are a couple of templates - {{uw-castewarning}} and {{castewarningtalk}}. - Sitush (talk) 00:55, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

28

Moved by User:Jehochman from User talk:Jehochman

Hi, I don't think we've ever really interacted much but I've seen a lot of what you have said over the last few years at ANI and other such noticeboards and I'd be astonished if you haven't waded through some of my crap also. Hopefully, we can keep avoiding each other because, frankly, your latest comments regarding the 28bytes farrago merely reinforce my opinion that you really are "up yourself", as we say in the UK.

I've got a lot of time for Salvio and a lot of time for 28bytes but I don't think I've ever come across someone with your level of experience on Misplaced Pages who is so willing to cast stones regardless of glass houses and to take some moral high ground seemingly at the drop of a hat, if you'll forgive a shedload of mixed metaphors. I'm sure that you mean well but, boy, I'm glad that we stay apart. Why is it that some people are so eager to get involved in meta issues while the vast majority carry on carrying on, building the encyclopaedia? Of course, meta issues are a part of the whole but can you honestly say that you are "clean" of things such as COI? I'm not, having edited Sedgley Park RUFC and Whitefield, Greater Manchester, for example. I am sure that you mean well but perhaps you should stand for ArbCom next year and put your money where your mouth is? - Sitush (talk) 01:13, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Don't believe everything you read about me. I stood for ArbCom twice and failed. So, I've been there and done that. At this point I don't have the time to do that job. Go ask the people I work with regularly, and you'll find that I get along pretty well. I also get along with most of the old timers. Jehochman 01:27, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

I've no idea why you moved this here but hey-ho. I haven't read anything about you other than the replies of some people to your posts. I've not been influenced by those and otherwise have only read stuff that you've said. Deflecting this on to other people isn't really a response, although I appreciate that you've tried. How it reflects on the judgement of the "old-timers" is anyone's guess.

Perhaps I've got it wrong and perhaps I am completely misreading your policing comments at various forums but you seem to insert yourself into all sorts of behaviour-related threads and pass judgement thereon. Maybe that is the role of a roving admin but sometimes, as now, it seems close to self-righteous harassment. I was vaguely aware that you'd stood for ArbCom before but my query was related to standing again in 2014, which is 12 months away. I appreciate that you may still be too busy then but it is worth a thought: I've always had the impression that it is the old-timers who mostly participate in the voting, along with a few bearing grudges, so it might be a case of third time lucky. - Sitush (talk) 08:18, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't want to host this discussion, but I am willing to answer your questions. Arbcom is a serious commitment. People should not run just because they can or because winning is viewed as an honor. The job is stressful and often unpleasant. It takes a lot of time. I have four kids and very substantial work responsibilities. I don't have time to do the job properly. Misplaced Pages is a hobby for me, not a second job.

A few bearing grudges? I'd have a lot more. Misplaced Pages generates many persistent disputes and problems: nationalist edit warriors, pseudoscience cranks, prolific sock puppeteers, cult activists, insane stalkers, child molesters. When such a person bothers a content creator, somebody like me has to step in and protect the content creator. I get a lot of thanks, usually quietly by email, sometimes a barnstar. That's why I like my Misplaced Pages hobby, and don't care for the political side of it. Jehochman 12:25, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

I see that you are still acting like some sort of super-cop. You've just closed a thread at WP:AN where you were a million miles from being uninvolved. That is the sort of behaviour that winds people up. No wonder I'm getting emails about you since I posted on your talk page. - Sitush (talk) 18:43, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

AAP Broom symbol

I have gone through the discussion. The previous discussion was based on image "sourced" from AAP website. This image I am adding is self made (like many other party symbols I have made and put on wikimedia). I have not put any copyright restrictions on the image as mentioned earlier the way I did for all symbols. I think no WP policy restricts self made images to be put on articles for encyclopedic purposes. --GPPande 17:40, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

I see. In that case, why bother? As was explained at WP:NFCR, the ECI image was not of any old brook but a specific one. We all know what a broom looks like but the point of the ECI symbol was to provide a standardised visual context for illiterate people. There is absolutely no point in making up your own and the text already says that a broom symbol was used. Basically, you seem to be using the article as some sort of personal colouring book here. - Sitush (talk) 17:44, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

I am not using WP as my coloring book. I am only putting relevant material on the article. I came here to talk to you trying to explain the reasoning behind such symbols and logos of political parties which provide encyclopedic values. I never wanted the discussion to come at personal level. Sad you just did it. Also its just not Indian political parties but all over world pages of political parties carry the logo/symbol. I am putting the image back on article. --GPPande 18:23, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

@Gppande:, if you do reinstate then you will be edit warring and using original research. That will get you blocked if you are not careful because you have no consensus for your addition. - Sitush (talk) 18:31, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Reminder to apply the concluded arguments on Khatri article. Satya301 (talk) 03:14, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Notice of Neutral point of view noticeboard discussion

Hello, Sitush. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you..

Evidence first (talk) 10:18, 1 January 2014 (UTC) .

Varnas

Hi Sitush, Regarding your revokes: What is the point you are trying to make by removing the 'actual' source of record for varna system and Also removing the already existing -'chatur varna' and chan -changing numbered sequence to un numbered as bullet points?

The Revokes/Changes Diff: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Varna_%28Hinduism%29&diff=588621475&oldid=587701528

thanks, Chitrada ThinkBig 15:06, 1 January 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chitrada (talk • contribs)

We avoid primary sources where possible because they are often open to interpretation. This is particularly true of religious texts and Indian epic stories. If you want another source for the statement then take a look at Bayly, Susan (2001). Caste, Society and Politics in India. Cambridge University Press. pp. 8–9. ISBN 9780521798426.. But please note that there is rarely need to cite something in a lead section if it is cited already in the body of the article. I couldn't find a source for the "chutur varna" bit in the short time that I had available but in any event almost all academic sources refer to it simply as varna. - Sitush (talk) 15:13, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

"WP:NOR" and "WP:PRIMARY" rediret to Misplaced Pages:No original research or OR. avoiding a original research is different than a direct statement that says about 'varna'. Ignoring it and citing some ones interpreation is not correct. How can one be sure of one's writer interpretatoin as the subject itself. Eg here a author cites "The Vaishyas" as "cattle herders" "agriculturists, artisans. One can say that these can be come under this but equating is completely WRONG. Where as the original statement on varna clearly AVOIDS the equating to concrete professions instead states its based on Guna&Kharma and we need to ensure it NEVER mentioned the division is based on 'BIRTH' against the current practice.

my point is not giving my own interpretation or contradicting a books outhor's view/statement. But giving only a authors view and hiding/burring the source gives a impression that Wiki authorizes, defines the authors view as the varna system itself, giving no scope for original statement. so, I think we need to mention the "Original Statement" for the actual source of information as is (not research) irrespective of the interpretation(s).ThinkBig 04:26, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Arbitrary heading

Hi Sitush, This is in response to the changes that you have made on the article on Jaggi Vasudev. Actually I had provided a number of citations, including newspaper links for the edit on the article on Jaggi Vasudev that I had made. I had added it to make the article appear more neutral. Hence, please revert the changes. Notthebestusername (talk) 02:07, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Wanting to achieve neutrality is fine but you cannot use poor Wordpress etc sources to do so. Not even if the man was dead, which he isn't. Please review WP:RS and WP:BLP. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 03:59, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

The kettle

...is deeply offended by your hurtful words. Everyking (talk) 03:39, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

You have reverted me and TRPOD; you've hit 3RR and you need to stop. You could probably already be blocked if I chose to report it to WP:AN3. Reinstate the thing again and you will be. - Sitush (talk) 03:56, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

You've hit 3RR and need to stop. Everyking (talk) 04:17, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

I know, but you got there first by warring against two people. You're going to end up there first at Manish Sisodia also. Why are you doing this? Could you perhaps take a read of the documentation for {{as of}}? Your recent edit at the Jayalalithaa article, on the other hand, is a good one. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 04:20, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

OK. Well, if the articles still lack properly informative opening sentences tomorrow, then I'll fix them again tomorrow. Everyking (talk) 04:27, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

@Everyking: - you'll definitely be blocked then. You need to take a look at WP:EW. - Sitush (talk) 04:29, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

I was not "stalking" you, merely reviewing a few of your recent contributions to get an idea of what sort of editor you are. While doing so I noticed some article introductions that didn't seem sufficiently informative, and I made a small effort to help—and you reverted me every time. What's up with that? I also observe that you seem to be edit warring with quite a few different people across various articles, so I suggest that you approach editing in a less combative manner in the future. Everyking (talk) 05:04, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Just as I did not realise your longevity on Misplaced Pages, so too you misunderstand me. You'll not find a single instance where I've been accused and found "guilty" of edit warring. I operate mostly in a highly contentious area of the project that few people with experience are willing to involve themselves in on a regular basis ... but I've been hauled in front of every drama board that you can think of and have always received as near as dammit 100% support for my actions. Go figure. - Sitush (talk) 05:16, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

I'll endorse Sitush's comment about about his editing in a highly contentious area. It's one that very few good editors come near and full of nationalist editors and those pushing their own understanding of castes (is there a word 'castist'?), one of the messiest areas on the encyclopedia. Dougweller (talk) 06:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Personal Attack on MilesMoney talk

First off, your mention of me there is irrelevant to the topic of the thread. Second, I have no history of encourage Miles to violate policy. I gave him a barnstar for improvement and believe it or not, he is much improved from where he was several months back (when I repeatedly admonished him to cut out various contentious behaviors.) At any rate, I'm asking you again to remove your misrepresentation of me, which is a personal attack. Let's not make this a bigger issue/waste of time than it need be. PA is unacceptable. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 04:45, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Nope. - Sitush (talk) 04:46, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

SPECIFICO, I would have to agree with Sitush on this matter. In light if the fact that MilesMoney seems generally aligned with yours and Steeletrap POV, then the best way to keep an ally around is to not reward bad behavior.--MONGO 04:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Young Miles needs more encouragement. He is under a lot of pressure here by the constant threats of bans. Steeletrap (talk) 18:49, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Personal attacks

Sitush, I am forced to write this since you have once again resorted to leaving rude comments on the Misplaced Pages. You have said "Bikramjit, please, leave this page alone". This page means the one on my father, Barun De. Let me tell you, no, I will not leave it alone. Not until you, who didn't know my father at all well, leave it alone yourself. But not before undoing the damage that you have already done. I repeat this page was started by me, and I reserve every right to edit it. You may not. Secondly, you are taking the name of a person you do not know, or do not have sufficient evidence of having left any comment on the Misplaced Pages. Please, do not do that again. And thirdly, do not show me the rules and policies of Misplaced Pages, because you are who is breaking them. Citing the birth date and death date is not a must. It is not seen on all the pages. Clearly, you are inserting your own imagined rules and policies.117.194.243.181 (talk) 09:54, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

ANI (what a twist!)

Yo Sitush, just letting you know that the IAC IP started a thread at ANI, asking for someone else to start a DRN request or something. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:41, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi Sitush.

is a RFM, and it needs your agreement to go forward. 2001:4DD0:FF00:8A8B:0:0:0:5747 (talk) 17:34, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

FYI Noticeboard involved/uninvolved format

Hi there Sitush. Remember when you got your panties all in a wad over poor @Carolmooredc:'s use of the "involved" "uninvolved" format on a Noticeboard thread? I guess nobody could recall the link to where that's suggested as an editor's prerogative. Here's the link for your reference: Cheers. SPECIFICO talk 22:54, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

I think that you have perhaps misunderstood the issues. Nobody with experience needed the link because the way things work was and is self-evident. Hence, the CMDC method was rejected at the RSN talk page etc. I always did acknowledge that there were a few situations where alternate sections layouts apply, the most notable (and confusing, IMO) being ArbCom-related discussions.

You'll be aware that even now CMDC is finding ways to emphasise her contributions in discussions, with innovative use of {{od}}, bolding, initiation of new sections for existing discussions etc. She should get a bollocking for it and probably will, one day, because it raises the drama that she seems to specialise in via her persistent-ish off-topic commentary on user behaviours etc. - Sitush (talk) 04:07, 3 January 2014 (UTC)