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Okura toraijin (kikajin) theory

I have never said this is anything other than a theory, and have not tried to add the text "Okura is Korean" (or "Okura is South Korean"!) to the article. This is a ridiculous straw man argument, clearly aimed at removing the whole discussion as part of some non-historical, non-literary agenda that runs contrary to the goal of Misplaced Pages. The theory is accepted by a great many respected literary historians (Nakanishi, Keene, Levy), and even its detractors (Aoki) see the need to go out of their way to criticize the theory. Almost no in-depth works on Okura written in the last 30 years dismiss the theory out of hand or completely ignore it. Basing an encyclopedia article's "NPOV" on a very few (old?) dictionary entries on Okura that just happen not to mention the theory is patently ridiculous. 182.249.240.31 (talk) 09:08, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Okura's origin

"Yamanoue Okura is a Japanese" is Common Sense of the historical science. And the hypothesis "Okura is a toraijin (foreigner)" doesn't have credibility. The reason is as the following content:

• According to "新選姓氏録(Shinsen Shojiroku)" (Newly Compiled Register of Clan Names and Titles of Nobility), Okura is a distant branch of the imperial family of Japan.（Quote the relevant part "山上朝臣 大春日朝臣同祖、天足彦国忍人命の後 右京皇別下"）Therefore, "Okura is a Japanese" is common sense. Main Japanese encyclopedias are written "Okura is Japanese." And this record is quoted in plural treatises. （Show an example 「類衆歌林」覚え書き 86page 「粟田真人は、文武四年に藤原不比等と共に律令選定を命ぜられており、この頃より不比等とのつながりが窺われよう。また、新選姓氏録などから山上憶良と同族出身である事が推定されるばかりか、大宝元年には憶良と共十分なように恩われる。」)
• Yamanoue-Okura was a Japanese low-class bureaucrat of the about 7th century. Therefore, his life not recorded in detail. The name of the Okura(憶良) is close to the Chinese style than Japanese style. Therefore, someone claims "Okura is not Japanese. He is immigration."
• This claim has been denied by Professor Aoki Kazuo experts ancient Japanese history. According to his book (「憶良帰化人説批判（Okura-Kikajin-setsu-Hihan）」, "Okura was given a title of "臣 (Omi)" from the Japanese emperor. The title of "臣" (Omi) is not given to a Kikajin(Descendants of foreign immigrants). Therefore, Okura is not Kikajin(Descendants of foreign immigrants).")
• Nakanishi Susumu is the scholar who is affirmative in this hypothesis (Okura is a Kikajin (Descendants of foreign immigrants)). However, he admits that this hypothesis can not be proven. According to his description, "Okura's Son (Yamanoue-Funanushi) given a title of "朝臣 (Ason)" from the Japanese emperor. The title of "朝臣 (Ason)" is not given to a Kikajin(foreign immigration). Therefore, Okura is not Kikajin(Descendants of foreign immigrants)." (「朝臣姓を賜った山上船主を憶良の子と推定すれば、憶良の帰化人たらぬことは紛れようもない。」（I have quoted the book written by Nakanishi Susumu "Soukoku-to-meisou Yamnoue Okura wo Megute (相剋と迷走 - 山上憶良をめぐって)" ）
• According to American-born Japanese literature scholar Donald Keene, "Okura wrote Kanshi (Chinese style poetry). But the emotion of his poetry is not Sino-Korean, was the spirit of the Japanese." (Quote from an interview with Daniel Keene of the book NHK Daily Manyoshu )
• Now, there is no treatise which quoted in the affirmative "Okura is Kikajin(Descendants of foreign immigrants).""
• And famous encyclopedia of Japan ("Nihon Rekishi Jinbutsu Jiten" published by The Asahi Shinbun / Heibonsha World Encyclopedia / "Dainihon Jinmei Jiten" (Dictionary of Japanese Biography) published by The Kodansha / Daijisen published by The Shogakukan / Daijirin) do not describe this hypothesis(Okura is a toraijin (foreigner)).

(This is the copy that I have explained Ross Hill in December 31, 2013. And 182.249.240.xxx was watching the talk. )

To stop the edit war

To prevent the edit battle, the page of Yamaue-Okura overwrites only 182.249.240.xxx's demand. (From the 12/24/2013, I stopped editing.)

• 182.249.240.xxx rewrite "Okura to have likely been of Immigrants to ancient Japan descent." to "Okura to have likely been of Korean descent. "
• 182.249.240.xxx erased "The Yamanoue clan was a tributary of the Kasuga clan, who is a descendant of Emperor Kōshō. "

I can add evidence to TalkPage if 182.249.240.xxx calms down. --Juzumaru (talk) 11:08, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

182.249.240.xxx

• Your original reading of Heian-era primary sources like the Shinsen Shojiroku is not allowed on Misplaced Pages. Further, can you tell me which modern printed edition you are using, and on which page exactly is Yamanoue no Okura (not just "the Yamanoue clan") is mentioned??
• It's become increasingly clear that your "famous encyclopedias of Japan" are just the dictionary (and some encyclopedia) entries you found on Kotobank.jp, with the one that mentions the theory (MyPedia) strategically left out.
• Other encyclopedias, like Britannica Kokusai Dai-Hyakkajiten or Nihon Koten Bungaku Daijiten give extensive coverage to it.
• Also, every one of the secondary sources you list is either extremely old (Aoki, Nakanishi) or clearly quoted out of context (Keene was clearly only talking of the language Okura used; his A History of Japanese Literature actually accepts the toraijin theory).
• "Okura to have likely been of Immigrants to ancient Japan descent" is not English, and it's not my responsibility to improve your grammar when the original wording was fine, and more in line with what the sources actually say, and you only want to change it because of your POV.
• Please do not reply here again unless you are willing to actually respond to my questions.

182.249.240.10 (talk) 13:49, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Specifically, I want you to tell me:

1. which modern scholarly sources say Okura was a tributary of the Kasuga clan,
2. explain where you got your specific list of famous "encyclopedias" (and dictionaries) of Japan that specifically don't mention the theory, and
3. which modern (post-1980) sources discuss Okura in detail and don't even mention the toraijin theory.

182.249.240.31 (talk) 13:56, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

182.249 is Hijiri88 (talk · contribs). Logging out to make problematic edits as an IP address is not allowed. See WP:SOCK. 114.145.61.103 (talk) 00:27, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Also, Juzumaru, please stop breaking up the discussion. Each new comment does not get its own section on a talk page. 182.249.240.10 (talk) 15:26, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

To 182.249.240.xxx

Many modern scholars

182.249.240.xxx wrote "Many modern scholars such as Susumu Nakanishi consider Okura to have likely been of Korean descent."

Can you introduce five or more scholars? （Is "Many" an exaggeration?） --Juzumaru (talk) 10:23, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

My original source (Keene) gives this as the establishment view of Okura's origins (i.e., many/most specialists accept it). He states that the theory was first established 30 years earlier by Watanabe in 1963. Nakanishi and Levy are two more. Miller (the source for the statements you initially removed from this article) is apparently another. That's five, only listing scholars mentioned previously in this discussion. Tell me though: why do I have to list scholars? I'm not saying this article should say "most scholars" or the like. Can you list two scholars who disagree? (I know there are at least two, but clearly you have not already read up on this, and you certainly can't find a source that says "the toraijin theory is a non-theory and should not be mentioned in an encyclopedia article".) 182.249.240.35 (talk) 15:19, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

182.249.240.xxx could not introduce five or more scholars. Therefore I delete "Many modern scholars". This section is completed. --Juzumaru (talk) 09:21, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I named Watanabe, Nakanishi, Keene, Miller, Levy, Vovin. That's six! 182.249.240.33 (talk) 11:20, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Watabe Kazuo's hypothesis "his name is a China style. Therefore, he is a foreigner." 「（憶良の前半生）First half of Okura」(1969：NACSIS-CAT ID :AN00265261）
  • This hypothesis has been denied by Professor Aoki Kazuo experts ancient Japanese history. According to his book (「憶良帰化人説批判（Okura-Kikajin-setsu-Hihan）」, "Okura was given a title of "臣 (Omi)" from the Japanese emperor. The title of "臣" (Omi) is not given to a Kikajin(Descendants of foreign immigrants). Therefore, Okura is not Kikajin(Descendants of foreign immigrants).")
• Nakanishi Susumu is the scholar who is affirmative in this hypothesis (Okura is a Kikajin (Descendants of foreign immigrants)). However, he admits that this hypothesis can not be proven. According to his description, "Okura's Son (Yamanoue-Funanushi) given a title of "朝臣 (Ason)" from the Japanese emperor. The title of "朝臣 (Ason)" is not given to a Kikajin(foreign immigration). Therefore, Okura is not Kikajin(Descendants of foreign immigrants)." (「朝臣姓を賜った山上船主を憶良の子と推定すれば、憶良の帰化人たらぬことは紛れようもない。」（"Soukoku-to-meisou Yamnoue Okura wo Megute (相剋と迷妄 - 山上憶良をめぐって)" written by Nakanishi Susumu (1965：ISSN 0389-4029)
• According to the interview with Donald Keene, "Okura wrote Kanshi (Chinese style poetry). But the emotion of his poetry is not Sino-Korean, was the spirit of the Japanese." (Quote from an interview with Daniel Keene of the book NHK Daily Manyoshu ) (However, he does not declare origin of Okura.)
• Miller -Who?
• Levy - Who?
• Vovin -Who?

I will add the new information there. --Juzumaru (talk) 21:10, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Why did 182.249.240.xxx erased "The Yamanoue clan was a tributary of the Kasuga clan..."

Please explain why 182.249.240.xxx continues to erase "The Yamanoue clan was a tributary of the Kasuga clan, who is a descendant of Emperor Kōshō." --Juzumaru (talk) 09:35, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Because that's not a fact. It's an opinion/fringe theory of one scholar, Mori, who almost never publishes in this field. It is oppsed by the only other source any of us have found that mentions it (Vovin), and is based on what is almost certainly a misreading of a later source (憶良 is not mentioned anywhere in the Shinsen, and names beginning with憶 are only mentioned in association with immigrants from the Korean peninsula). 182.249.240.21 (talk) 11:24, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• "The Yamanoue clan was a tributary of the Kasuga clan...(山上朝臣の条にはその氏が大春日朝臣と同祖...)" was quoted from "Research of Shinsen-Shojiroku"（新撰姓氏録の基礎的研究）written by Saeki Arikiyo. (This book was awarded the Japan Academy Prize (academics) in 1984. .)
• Yamanoue-Ason (山上朝臣) is the Yamanoue clan. Yamanoue Okura belong to this clan. This is the fact that Nakanishi agrees.
• "names beginning with 憶 are only mentioned in association with immigrants from the Korean peninsula" is not related to Yamanoue-Okura. I quote the "names beginning with 憶 ".「The Atobekusushinoomi clan's ancestor is 憶徳 who came from Goryeo.」「The Ishino clan's ancestor is 憶頼 who came from Baekje.」These two clans are unrelated to Okura.
• Once again, Why did 182.249.240.xxx erased "The Yamanoue clan was a tributary of the Kasuga clan..." --Juzumaru (talk) 21:10, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Which sources should we be using?

I'm not the one who removed the Miller source. The statement attached to the Mori source doesn't belong in this article unless Mori specifically mentions OKURA (not just "the Yamanoue clan"). I am willing to discuss whether Tomioka is more relevant than the Levy source, either here or on RSN, but it should be noted that the Levy source APPEARS to be more relevant (speech given by a specialist in this area, in English, published by a major academic institution) and was already upheld by consensus at RSN before it was replaced with the Tomioka source. 182.249.240.23 (talk) 03:23, 10 January 2014 (UTC) (H88)

While searching for Mori (apparently a historian with a background in the relations between Japan and the Asian mainland in the classical period) I found this. Apparently he gave an unconvincing argument about Okura's origins, based on what seems like an unintuitive reading of Shinsen Shojiroku. The article should not be citing a lone scholar's fringe POV as fact, and it's clear that User:Juzumaru, in his constant claims that I am trying to make the article say "Okura is Korean" is engaging in gross projection. And I think we can add Vovin to the list of scholars not convinced by Juzumaru's arguments. Also, his bogus encyclopedia argument has failed too (I'll post quotations when I charge my phone, but virtually all Japanese encyclopedias cover the toraijin theory). 182.249.240.10 (talk) 09:58, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

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