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I suggest making ] active again by recruitment as the pages ] and such really need work done. - ] (]) 23:44, 22 January 2014 (UTC) I suggest making ] active again by recruitment as the pages ] and such really need work done. - ] (]) 23:44, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

:Most of the issues can be done quickly, they are mostly too much in-universe coverage. FOr one, the table of forms should be removed. its unnecessary to list when exactly a form was introduced. Other than that, not a whole lot needs to be done, just condensing. I'll look into it, because i have been looking over at them for a while. But whether making the Sailor Moon wikiproject active again....its no different from other taskforce we have. we can discuss any sailor moon article here.] (]) 23:49, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

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Episode list for FLC and FLRC

I've submitted List of Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion R2 episodes for FLC here. Criticism appreciated.

I also sent List of Yozakura Quartet episodes to FLRC here. DragonZero (Talk · Contribs) 01:47, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Bumping. The FLRC is pretty straight forward. Comments would help close it faster. DragonZero (Talk · Contribs) 10:34, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Fullmetal Alchemist (anime) RfC

I opened an RfC for Fullmetal Alchemist (anime) on regards if it should be split. Here's the link Talk:Fullmetal Alchemist (anime)#RfC: Regarding splitting the anime(s)

Some opinions would be good.Lucia Black (talk) 06:20, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Whether or not all manga and anime lolicon is cartoon pornography

Comments are needed on this matter: Talk:Lolicon#All manga and anime lolicon is cartoon pornography? Flyer22 (talk) 18:07, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Serialization titles

Hello there,

While not a particularly active editor (nor a huge fan of Misplaced Pages, to be perfectly honest), I do try to improve/correct some articles here and there once in a while, mostly lists and sheer data as I'm not generally confident enough in my English skills (not a native speaker, sorry) to venture beyond that.

A recent altercation with another editor (whom I'll invite to join the potential discussion and voice his opinions while crossing my fingers regarding his conduct) leads me here, as I hope you'll share your views regarding two details in particular when it comes to Misplaced Pages's lists of volumes (that oddly become "lists of chapters" at the other end of the link? guess that one would be a third detail... er, moving on!).

First up would be the serialization titles...

As I imagine at least some of you know, it's not particularly uncommon for collected volumes/tankôbon to feature some differences from the serialization material. Those can range from text/art corrections to merged, divided or reshuffled episodes. Here, I'd primarily like to talk about changed titles.

I would think (correct me if I'm wrong) that, considering how those lists are named (before the link is clicked, anyway *cough*) and organized (release dates and ISBNs of the original/regular volumes), the titles featured in the actual volumes (as seen in the table of contents, for a convenient basis) should the ones listed, rather than the ones used during the serialization. At the very least, that's how I've been doing it so far, anyway.

Now, are the "old" serialization titles notable? I personally am of the opinion that including them wouldn't do wonders for the overall legibility of the list. Not that I'm not interested in them (hell, I love trivia like that when it comes to series I like), but in the case of series that change titles routinely, this would end up doubling the amount of text, the amount of nihongo templates. And all of that for titles that could only be found on long since out-of-print material.

And that's just for the series I was working on earlier (JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, changing pretty much all its episode titles since 1990!). For others, we could be looking at further complications: the merged, divided or reshuffled episodes I was mentioning earlier. After all, and despite how things may look at first glance, City Hunter, Captain Tsubasa and Saint Seiya (for example) weren't originally serialized in particularly long installments: they were your regular 20-page long or so episodes... before those were merged into larger chunks for the volumes. And then, there would also be series like And Yet the Town Moves, that often reshuffle or skip (and renumber) some episodes. So we wouldn't simply have to deal with two separate lists of titles, but also with a fairly important number of notes.

Again, I do find all that quite interesting, personally, but it seems to me going there would mean wandering into "indiscriminate collection of information" territory. Probably better left off to (somewhat hardcore!) fan sites if we want to keep those lists accessible. And of course, good luck verifying all that.

Short version: I believe those articles should list the titles found in the table of contents of the collected volumes they refer to, and specifying "old" serialization titles would be overkill/cumbersome. What do you think? Was this discussed before? And if so, was a consensus reached?

(to quickly go back to that third detail... I also believe it would then be more accurate to call those "lists of volumes", as the links do, but that's another matter) Erigu (talk) 11:01, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

They're "chapters" not "episodes". And notability is not the measure by which information is or is not included within already existing articles. There is no reason to forbid alternate chapter titles in any form. The fact they have been changed in subsequent printings is of note and does not violate WP:NOTIINFO. The information is not "indiscriminate" as it is information on reprintings.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 11:24, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
First off, let's not pretend my personal preference for the term "episode" over "chapter" in this context is either problematic or relevant to the matter at hand.
Then, while I may agree that the title changes could be considered of note, when it comes to the reason not to actually list them all, not to include a second (or third, since you also want to include newer titles used in other collections (pocket, deluxe, colorized)) set of titles, I gave several above: notability (I was under the impression that did matter), legibility and verifiability. Erigu (talk) 11:42, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Notability is a metric by which articles as a whole are considered for inclusion on this project. Not individual pieces of information within articles. Legibility is not a metric on this website outside of the requirements at WP:ACCESS. Verifiability, however, is, and it is very easy to verify that a title has changed from one printing to the next. And because this information can be verified, there is nothing forbidding its inclusion in the lists of chapters. If I can verify that JoJolion chapter 18 was called "trouble with the curve" when it was first published in Ultra Jump's February 2013 issue but it was renamed "『カツアゲロード』 その①" when included in volume 4 of the tankobon, why should "trouble with the curve" be excluded from the article?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 11:52, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
For the "notability" bit, I guess the issue would be whether or not it makes sense for that particular piece of information to be mentioned in said article. If it is first and foremost about the volumes, I would say it doesn't. If it is first and foremost about the episodes, sure, but that's not what the lists I've seen so far look like to me, and it would prove quite troublesome for a number of "old" series...
I'm saying additional/alternate sets of titles (complete with their nihongo template and possibly their notes) would clutter those articles. I find it hard to believe that's not considered a factor and I hope you'll forgive me for not taking your word for it, considering our recent exchanges.
As for verifiability, you claim that "it is very easy to verify that a title has changed from one printing to the next". Just to be clear: as specified in the subject, I'm referring to serialization titles. Are you really saying it is very easy to check old (sometimes decades old) serialization magazines? Those go out of print really quickly. In fact, I recall you saying "there's no telling what chapters outside of SBR and JoJolion were called in the magazines if anything." And even in the case of those more recent series, you were relying on a fansite. Erigu (talk) 12:12, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
You are taking my comments out of context. I obviously found the updated titles for JoJo's first 3 arcs easily online and in a reliable source (Docomo's e-book store). And the serialization titles of JoJolion can be reliably confirmed by reading Ultra Jump. I said that I used that website as a means of getting the Japanese title in an easy to access (for the most part) format. I have the December 2013 issue with me now which has chapter 26's current title in it. And when volume 7 comes out sometime this year I'll buy it and it will have the updated title within it. I can then use these two reliable sources to show that the title of that chapter used to be one thing but is now another.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 13:05, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
"I obviously found the updated titles for JoJo's first 3 arcs easily online and in a reliable source (Docomo's e-book store)." <- Again, I'm not talking about the titles used in other, more recent volume collections (pocket, deluxe or colorized). I'm talking about serialization titles. Hence the subject of this section, above: "serialization titles".
As for Ultra Jump issues, like all serialization magazine issues, they quickly go out of print. It's nice that you can use the December 2013 issue to verify the serialization title of the corresponding episode. I bought some issues, myself. The expression "drop in the ocean" comes to mind though. To put it another way, I don't think it's particularly surprising that those articles generally list a bunch of references to the volumes whereas I really don't remember seeing many of those for magazine issues... Erigu (talk) 13:43, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Well I don't know why no one bothers with it. I barely understand how {{cite book}} works.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:08, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
I'd still be interested in other opinions (pretty please?), but in the meantime, I'd like to once again ask Ryulong how exactly he'd deal with adding the serialization titles to the previous parts of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure when he already lists an extra set of titles (those used in more recent collections). "I'm not personally interested in adding them (but I'm really looking forward to reverting you if you dare touch those in the JoJolion article!)" sounds a bit like a cop out to me... And how about the examples I gave above of series that routinely merge or reshuffle episodes when they're collected in volumes? Any concrete ideas as to how those would be handled? Erigu (talk) 08:22, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Nothing, apparently. Heh. Erigu (talk) 04:47, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
I don't see how going "I am not interested in adding content to older series, but I will continue to add this content for the current series" is a cop out.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 12:49, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Of course you don't. And right there, you didn't once again evade my questions about how one would add serialization titles to all those other series either. Erigu (talk) 12:54, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Are there serialization titles going back all the way to Phantom Blood that differ from the original set of chapter titles? If so, then that is problematic and I do not know a proper way to include the information if someone was to go about doing it. Obviously, for the more recent series this is not a problem.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 13:20, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
The titles seem to mostly be the same for Parts 1 and 2 (there are some differences here and there according to the the list I found online, but they might be typos... again, serialization titles are quite hard to actually verify!). The very beginning of Part 3 would be a bit problematic though. And even if the titles seem to match between the regular edition and the newer collections after that, I believe there are still some differences here and there (mostly reading/furigana-wise?), at least in Part 3...
Then, there would be all those other series that change more than just titles... I see you've just edited the Saint Seiya article, so you've seen how those chapters are obviously longer than the actual serialized episodes. On top of adding a new set of titles, wouldn't that be a mess to explain? Oh, and Kurumada actually seamlessly (well, as seamlessly as someone like him can manage, anyway) edited his short story Shaka into one of those volumes. And the ending was serialized in another (and far less prominent) magazine altogether, making the verification process harder even. Erigu (talk) 14:07, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Well it is not required that it be done. If the information is available and someone feels like putting in the effort, then it should be perfectly fine to include the information. There certainly shouldn't be any hardline rule that says it should not be allowed.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 14:20, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
While I'd agree with the general sentiment (again, I like obscure information, myself), well... I guess I also like order and consistency. And readily verifiable information. And volumes lists to clearly be about the volumes. And articles to not be confusing/cluttered. I personally think this would be opening a little Pandora's box, biting more than we can chew, a slippery slope, etc. Erigu (talk) 14:36, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
It's as much a list of volumes as it is a list of chapters. And again, if someone wants to put the effort in, they can. I'm not interested in that. All I plan on doing is keeping the JoJolion chapter list up to date and when a new volume is released then I can combine the old with the new. I don't see how that would be so much of a problem.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 15:34, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Like said above, they read more like lists of volumes first and foremost to me. And if you take a look at the lists of references, for example...
But yeah, it is weird how they're called "list of chapters" when infoboxes call them "list of volumes". The latter seems more fitting to me... Erigu (talk) 16:01, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

"... no Maki"

And for the second detail...

As can already be seen in some volume lists here and there, it was fairly common practice at some point for Jump Comics (and quite possibly other collections, I'd have to check) to add "no Maki" ("の巻", literally "scroll of...") at the end of their volume and episode titles.

Please note that when I said "at some point", that doesn't mean current reprints of those volumes now omit the "no Maki"s: they're still there decades later. Not always in other collections altogether (deluxe editions, colored editions, etc), but the original/regular collections referred to in our volume lists still use that "old" format for their titles, even nowadays. The "no Maki"s can be found on the covers, in the table of contents, on the title pages, etc. They're also more often than not included when other sources mention those titles, in Japan (an example "with" and "without"... note also how a lot of hits seem derived from our Misplaced Pages lists, for the latter).

Naturally, that's more of a format and those "no Maki"s don't actually mean anything plot-wise (I certainly wouldn't argue they're worth translating or anything like that!)... That being said, I believe they shouldn't be removed from volume lists, if only for accuracy's sake (although I guess the mere fact they were used at some point and not so much anymore for recent series could also be considered information in itself, to those interested). Like above, I'd argue for sticking as closely as possible to the table of contents of the volumes we're referring to in those lists. Unlike the serialization titles mentioned earlier, this wouldn't really be adding tons of characters or new layers of complexity based on out-of-print (and thus also hard to verify) material.

What do you think?

(thank you for your attention, sorry about the length, and I apologize if this has all been discussed here before... I did look around but couldn't find anything) Erigu (talk) 11:02, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

の巻 is unnecessary if it is used in every single title of a chapter as it provides no information to the reader.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 11:20, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
And like I explained above and argued back when we discussed this, the point would be accuracy (although the mere fact those "no maki" were used at some point and not so much anymore for recent series could also be considered information in itself, to those interested). Erigu (talk) 11:42, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
If it's used repeatedly across multiple works of fiction and it has no particular importance to that one work of fiction then it is not important to include these two characters nor their romanizations in lists of chapters.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 11:45, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Well, I believe both our points have been made already, really. Now, if somebody else wants to chime in...? Erigu (talk) 12:13, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Same as above: I'd really like to hear some (other) opinions. Erigu (talk) 08:25, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

It really depends how the chapters are set up. If their done in a way that says "tales of A" "tales of B" then, it would be necessary to mention "tales of" but if it is "Tales of: A" then there's a clear distinction of separating them. But there are other isseus i find in the method we use.Lucia Black (talk) 05:01, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

There's no separation, space, specific font or anything like that. It looks just like this: "双首竜の間への巻", the "no Maki" being those two characters at the end. Erigu (talk) 06:08, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Except there are some titles that go "双首竜の間へ!の巻", suggesting that it's an unnecessary suffix.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:46, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
With Google translation, i'm not getting "tales of" i'm getting "Volume of" instead, how odd. i realize that "no maki" the "no" part makes it literally makes it translate "Tales of X" but it can also be seen as "X's Tale" or "X tale" depending on how its used. Although repeated, its still heavily significant in every title. Its not like we can take it off and the meaning of the title stays the same. Removing It's not like these are numbered either or some way that divides the title. for example if we had "The 5th Tale" "The 6th Tale" "The 7th Tale" etc. We have them as part of every chapter title, so its best we keep them in.Lucia Black (talk) 12:32, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Google Translate really shouldn't be trusted so much. In this case, it's the word for "chapter" or "volume". So we are saying every single chapter is titled "Chapter X" when we keep の巻 at the end. It's superfluous if it's included in over 100 chapter titles, particularly if we're not going to translate it because it's so repetitive and redundant.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 12:47, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
It's part of the title, it's more often than not included when those titles are referenced, and it's more accurate to keep it. Also, note that the accuracy argument is an objective one. Whereas arguing it's "useless" obviously gets you into subjective territory. I'm sure many people would consider all that stuff in the nihongo template "useless", too.
(And I can't say I'm terribly impressed by your "it can be found even after an exclamation point therefore it's unnecessary" reasoning. One could just as well argue "wow, they kept those even after exclamation points? Guess they felt pretty strongly about that, then!" You're just leaping to the conclusion you want to reach, there.)
That being said, I wouldn't argue it's significant plot-wise. Like I explained earlier, I wouldn't actually translate those "no Maki", for example. But they're there. I guess you could say they're part of the publication history (which Ryulong seems to be defending pretty harshly when it comes to serialization titles that are never reprinted). That's information, even if you don't personally care about it. Erigu (talk) 13:08, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
If it's the same word repeated over and over and over and over again (which it is for 40 volumes) and that word just means "Chapter" or "Volume" or then it's not important to include that same line of text hundreds of times. And not including an obviously repeated and redundant kanji is not the same as arguing for the inclusion of an alternate set of titles that were used. I have a similar issue when it comes to Super Sentai episodes where there is always a unique word that they use in place of saying "Episode #X" which is used in every single episode title, and that's just to say "Episodes are called " at some point in the list article and then not bother to include every single instance of that word when it comes to the episode titles. However, when it comes to the titles of book chapters, there's simply no point to include what is effectively the word "Chapter" in the title of every god damn chapter. It's not less accurate to say a chapter is titled "双首竜の間へ" than it is to say its title is "双首竜の間への巻".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 13:17, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
For the "redundant" thing, same as above: just because you find those useless, that doesn't objectively make it so. And keeping them would objectively be more accurate.
(and the "no maki" aren't used every single time, as it happens) Erigu (talk) 14:18, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

It depends on how its repeated, not just that its repeated in the first place. The argument in the past that i brought up involved, the naming of the numerical part of the chapter. For example the chapter organization of Maria Holic was "Prayer 01", "Prayer 02", "Prayer 03" even though each chapter had its own title, the numerical part that had its own name did not, because it wasn't part of the title. Example of the exact opposite is hypothetically the chapters are called "1.Beginning stage" "2.Middle stage" "3.Final stage". Even though the word "stage" is repeated we don't remove it because its "part" of the chapter title, not a fancy numerical.Lucia Black (talk) 13:41, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Every single chapter is titled "ABCの巻", "DEFの巻", "GHIの巻", "JFKの巻", etc. from chapter 1 to chapter 372.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 13:56, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
But each time its repeated, its "part" of the title, unlike Maria Holic in which it is only giving name to the the number of the chapter, same for D.gray-man.Lucia Black (talk) 14:08, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Episodes 1 to 123, actually (plus a brief return for episode 265). I wish I could say I corrected you courtesy of Misplaced Pages, but that information disappeared when you immediately reverted my edits! :þ Erigu (talk) 14:12, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
I was generalizing. And no, it is not "part of the title" Lucia. It's the title, then の巻, for several hundred chapters across several dozen unrelated series.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 14:19, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Now, now, you were being wrong. It's okay to admit it, once in a while. ^^;
Also, simply stating they're not part of the title is a bit short, isn't it? Again, the "no Maki" are more often than not there when those titles are referenced elsewhere. Obviously, quite a lot of people consider them to be part of the titles and aren't so quick to take it upon themselves to excise them. Erigu (talk) 14:25, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
I can say they're not part of the title because they're not printed on the same line. It's simply there to say "this is the chapter title".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 14:26, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Except when they are. Come on, Ryulong, same volume, pages 6 (a bunch of times: that's the table of contents), 7, 45, 63, 82, 120 and 177. And the cover(s), naturally. Also, lots of those episode titles have more than "no Maki" printed on separate lines, what would you say that means?
Seriously, now... Erigu (talk) 14:42, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

It would actually be more helpful if we saw a table of contents before judging. i've seen various titles doing the same under different circumstances.Lucia Black (talk) 14:32, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't know how many times I can say "'の巻' literally means 'Chapter'" to you Lucia. It's inconsequential. It's not like chapter 1 is "First stage" and chapter 2 is "Second stage". Chapter 1 is "fooの巻" and chapter 2 is "barの巻" which literally mean "Chapter foo" and "Chapter bar" and it goes on like this for over a hundred chapters and it is not limited to one series. If we were to use the example I found a link for, it would say "Chapter North Wind and Vikings" and it is not "The North Wind and Viking's Chapter". Also, these chapters (at least with JoJo) are no longer used in reprints.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 14:38, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
That last part isn't true: the current prints still feature the same "no Maki", like I explained in my original post. You're thinking of different collections altogether (colorized or deluxe editions). The regular edition (the one referenced in the article) hasn't changed in that respect. Erigu (talk) 14:47, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Its a difficult call, and i believe a table of contents will clarify the intention.Lucia Black (talk) 14:51, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
I don't think that they use the original set of titles at all. And Lucia, they're going to be there but that's not the point. Adding の巻 to the end of every chapter title just because that's what was in the book's table of contents is ridiculous. It's two characters being omitted because they're found in every chapter title because they're the Japanese way of saying "this is the chapter title". It's of no consequence to understanding other than being extremely anal about being 110% accurate. Thej apanese rarely use the convention in common usage. Why should we include it when it doesn't tell the reader anything?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 15:06, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Ryulong, you know that this is stacked against your own subjective reasoning, so why not look for a more objective route. It's still part of the title. It tells the reader plenty. Removing it would be "lying" to the reader of what the title is called. Which is why i sued the example of "1.Beginning stage, middle stage, final stage". even though they would all have "stage" in it, removing them would be "Beginning, middle, final". it just reveals a lot less information. But let me elaborate, even if it used the set up of "chapters" it would have to be separate from the name, in order for it to be deemed irrelevant.
SO it doesn't matter if you think the title doesn't tell anything to the reaer, its part of the title. Why fight something so objectively clear with subjective thinking?Lucia Black (talk) 15:13, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, Ryulong, I didn't understand what you meant by "I don't think that they use the original set of titles at all". Could you clarify?
And it's not so much about adding the "no Maki"s but rather about not removing them. I mean, we are supposed to list the contents of the volumes, in those articles, right?
... Also, I'm not sure what that Google link is supposed to show, to tell you the truth... ^^;
(Ryulong, I don't have a scanner or even a camera, myself, but since you posted a page from volume 3 just above, could you show Lucia Black the table of contents?) Erigu (talk) 15:16, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
You are misunderstanding me Lucia. I am arguing that の巻 and only の巻 is not necessary to have at the end of chapter titles of several series where it apparently had been used in the late 80s for every single chapter that was released because it literally means "chapter". It is not "lying" to the reader. It is not part of the chapter's title in a manner that has any actual meaning, unlike the use of "stage" in your example. It's just there and it's there for 100 chapters in a row and it is not in common usage in Japan. They just use the part that comes before の巻 because "Misplaced Pagesの巻" would just be "Chapter: Misplaced Pages".
I meant reprints don't use the original set of chapter titles and solely use the new chapter titles. I know this is true for my compilation version of Stardust Crusaders. And I just found that page on the internet a while back when I was looking for a drawing of that character. I do not own any of the older volumes.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 15:27, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Hm. What is your compilation version of Stardust Crusaders, exactly? I mean, if it uses that title at all, for instance, we're not talking about the regular edition. Could you clarify, or perhaps list an ISBN?
As for it "not being in common usage in Japan", I'm not sure what you mean by that. Like I showed in my original post, when those titles are referenced elsewhere, the "no Maki" are included more often than not (they're also listed on that site you recommended to me a little while back).
Lucia Black, I looked online and found the table of contents from that same volume 3 Ryulong referenced earlier. And here are some other examples (from the same volume) on the top of the one he posted above: . I believe they clearly show we're merely dealing with good old line breaks. His claim that that one page proved the "no Maki" was not part of the title was selective reading. Erigu (talk) 15:46, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, thanks for sharing. On another note, these aren't numbered, so maybe (if the chapter list is numbered) we should remove any numerical on them.Lucia Black (talk) 15:51, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Agreed about the numbering (although I'd keep the numbers for the second set of titles, since those newer collections actually have them). Erigu (talk) 15:54, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
I have the version that came out over the last year, and chapter 1 is "Kujo Jotaro Sono 1", ISBN 978-4-08-111062-9. And the table of contents shows that usage is constant across the volume, as it would be for any other volumes you can find (up until the first volume that is just Stardust Crusaders). It's just repetetive and redundant to have "の巻" and "no Maki" for each chapter title where this is the case when it's just saying "Fooの巻" and "Barの巻" are "Chapter: Foo" and "Chapter: Bar". And removing the numbering on Misplaced Pages because they weren't numbered in the original volumes is going way too far.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 15:59, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
I see, thank you for the clarification. Well, that's not the regular edition referenced in the Misplaced Pages list: . Yours is not a reprint, but a new, different edition. Actual reprints of the regular edition still have the same "no Maki"s, even nowadays (and no numbering). Erigu (talk) 16:09, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
So I've been using the word "reprint" wrong. Thank you for clarifying that. However, I do not think that the books have been reprinted. I know the new edition I have has been made for Part 1 and 2, and an additional new edition release (the Jojonium versions) has been released as well, and because those use the "Remix"/"digital full color" versions of the pages, those have the newer titles in them.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:18, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Oh, I assure you the regular edition has been and is still being reprinted! Don't worry about that. ^^
Like I'm pretty sure I told you already, those newer collections are available on top of the regular edition. They're not replacing it (and I don't expect them to either... not as long as Shûeisha doesn't abandon paper altogether, anyway!).
(in case you're interested, you can tell which reprint you have by looking at the last page of the volume... the volume 3 mentioned above, for example, was first printed in 1988, but the actual copy those pages I linked to above were from is part of the 51st reprint of that volume, in February 2000) Erigu (talk) 16:25, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
So it's only 14 years old now :P—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:41, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
That particular copy I found on the net, yes. I can assure you that you could walk into pretty much any Japanese bookstore and find recent (most likely 2013) reprints of the regular edition. Erigu (talk) 16:52, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
No, apan likes to take things off the market as much as they can. You won't believe how many snacks I've found to love only to go back to the store the next week and find out they're gone forever. I would have to go to one of the second hand stores or specialty stores and hope that they have separate copies or full collections available.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:00, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
I can imagine, but in this particular case, I'm 100% positive the regular edition (that includes "old" parts, naturally) is still being printed. Really. You can go ahead and try a bookstore. ^^ Erigu (talk) 17:11, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Here's somebody who got a copy of the 75th reprint of volume 13, for example: December 2012. Erigu (talk) 17:25, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Now we're using some more ovjective reasoning. So if the newer versions contian numbering, then its no problem to have them (so long as they have them in any version). the chapter naming however, should be clarified if the new version actually removes them. But i suggest we keep the naming for stardust crusaders.Lucia Black (talk) 16:04, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

We do not need to make this a case study on how to edit the JoJo's Bizarre Adventure chapter lists. And this is getting off topic, but I may as well try to use it in my example. In Japan, it seems, the first chapter in the original printing of Stardust Crusaders was written as "悪霊にとりつかれた男の巻". I believe that because "の巻" is just a phrase that means "chapter", and because it is used in the preceding 100 or so chapters as well as the handful that follow until the chapter titling just changes entirely, it is not necessary to include this information because it's just a somewhat archaic way of indicating the title of that particular chapter.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:14, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Point is, they're still there in current printings of the regular edition, which is the one referenced in those lists.
As for "removing the numbering"... Well, that wouldn't quite be "removing" if it wasn't there in the first place, would it? ;þ And there are cases where adding numbers instead of sticking to the table of contents would only create problems...
But in the case of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, the episodes apparently are numbered in the more recent collections, so I don't have a problem with keeping those, like said above... Erigu (talk) 16:25, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, my soshuhen is numbered and I'm pretty sure my JoJolion volumes are numbered. If anything, I know that the Ultra Jump versions are numbered.
But back on the "no maki" stuff, if it's in every chapter title we really don't need to repeat it, particularly if it is simply indicative of a printing by Jump Comics or Shueisha.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:41, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
And that blade of the immortal list content can probably have the "Act ###" cut out because it's clearly just the chapter numbers.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:42, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
I know the JoJonium volumes are numbered, so I wouldn't be surprised if other newer collections were as well, sure.
As for the Blade of the Immortal list... Not quite, if you look closely. And then, if you try and number the English list to then compare it with the Japanese one, you'll see what I was getting at (it's also another example of a series that changes some stuff around (titles, numbering, etc) between the serialization and the collected volumes, incidentally)...
(pretty sure I already said everything I wanted to regarding the "no maki"... I don't feel the need to repeat myself nor see anything to add at the moment, anyway!) Erigu (talk) 16:52, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Did you get the JoJonium volumes? I've been on the fence about them because I heard the green ink bleeds too easily.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:00, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
I've been holding out, mostly because of the ink thing. I hear volume 3 is not quite as bad, but eeeeh... If the Shûeisha guys finally come to their senses and the reprints of the first volumes are fixed, I'd be interested. Erigu (talk) 17:06, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
I agree about removing volume/chapter indicators like ACT. (Initial D), Battle/Trial/Round (various manga), Lesson/Xth period (various school manga), 第2集 but retain if it's essential or integrated into the title like "(whatever) and Vampire" as with List of Rosario + Vampire episodes or "Haruhi Suzumiya Episode 00" or "Team of Four" (Yu Yu Hakusho volume 4 DVD set). Or as a non-anime example, "The One with/where ... " in List of Friends episodes. -AngusWOOF (talk) 17:15, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Improving the Lupin III Character pages.

After watching 75 episodes of Lupin in the last few weeks I've been spending way too much time observing and thinking about the characters and their foibles. I blame all that time I spent rewriting the Lupin III article a few years ago. It seems silly to waste the time I'm watching the series not to add loads of references to the character articles. The problem is that I've not edited wikipedia for over 3 years and the articles are a complete and total mess.

It strikes me that at the very least the Arsène Lupin III article needs to be completely redone and the rest can be done later. However I'm very rusty and I'm finding it hard to make a start. I'm tempted to just scrap the existing article and start again as trying to rewrite it seems rather futile. What I'm looking for is some feedback and hopefully some assistance in doing this. Writing about characters was never something I really did but referencing and adding to an established article I can do as I go along.

Really I'm just looking for any assistance, in any form that anyone can provide. It's not a project I think I can manage on my own but at the same time I can get a lot done with only a small amount of help. Reception information would be a great help. In the mean time, I'll start taking out some of the worst statements from those articles as a start. Dandy Sephy (talk) 22:20, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Hm... It's difficult to help you. I would only say you might look for some of the articles in the section "Characters and fictional items" in Misplaced Pages:Good articles/Language and literature#Language and literature. I hope it helps you. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 22:45, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Lupin III is heavy series. It has alot of adaptations and some original films.Lucia Black (talk) 22:47, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
One advantage of the series is that because it is mostly episodic, the amount of episodes and specials etc shouldn't make the pages any more complex than smaller franchises. Only 5 characters to talk about. Dandy Sephy (talk) 22:59, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Urusei Yatsura

I've started a discussion on the talk page for this article regarding it's rather large culture section. I'd like to split it out from the main article but I'm not sure if thats for the best or going to cause other issues. Without the section (or even with a smaller , better sourced version of it) that article could be a candidate for GA after some work. With it there it presents a significant obstacle to overcome. Any input from editors is welcome.Dandy Sephy (talk) 22:45, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

It's a marvelous and detailed section, but I believe it would be the target of deletion if separated. Now, the cultural icons seem to come right from the Anime Companion type works which point out various details and other iconography. This is something most people can do, but the problem is that it is like an essay. The text like: "Since being of a mild climate, Japanese have participated in outdoor events from ancient times. These events, "Hanami" (花見) and "Utakai" (歌会) are done in the present and appeared in the manga many times." is really coatracking on a pretty major scale. Urusei Yatsura should not be a "point out cultural details" page so it is best condensed to the basic facts. Do you want to work on this together to get it to be GA? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:29, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
I'll probably not work on the article for a few days while waiting for further comments and having a look for sources and ways to improve that section. It was originally the idea to take it to GA after doing that extensive rewrite, and the rest of the article has been well maintained in the time between so it still serves as a good base for a GA run. I'd like to compress the Plot some if possible but the culture section aside it probably only need a few tweaks in general. Of course any assistance in this is welcome. Dandy Sephy (talk) 09:31, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
I don't think anyone has said this yet; So, welcome back Dandy Sephy! I started editing again 2 months ago, after a 2 year hiatus. With regards to Urusei Yatsura's GA, the peer review process could be used as a dry-run before GA maybe? Extremepro (talk) 12:48, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. Turns I I had it peer reviewed almost exactly four years ago, so I will take a fresh look at the comments from that and see if any are still relevant. Dandy Sephy (talk) 13:50, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
It needs a fair amount of work before making GA, but I think it is easily doable, I've just been busy with other side projects. I'm just disappointed in the actual coverage of its other parts. I'm glad everyone is coming back and revitalizing the project. I've been working my butt off to get some things fixed up around here and I've just got too much on my plate to handle it all alone. I have 10 GAs done and the content and books for another 100 or so. I had been trying to bring up the list of all releases for anime and sorting out some of the more notable works. You think we should split up the Urusei Yatsura films to their own pages? There is enough material out there to support this. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:52, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
Beautiful Dreamer has more than enough material available to be able to make a GA article. It`s also significant for a number of reasons (I wonder if there are reliable sources comparing it to Castle of Cagliostro as they both represent the same sort of position within their franchises). The other movies are less significant and can wait, no point making extra work. Dandy Sephy (talk) 16:34, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Beautiful Dreamer was a high point, but Cagliostro was disliked at first... I doubt there are many sources comparing the two directly. Both have had their rumors though, I decided to finally end that Spielberg matter with Cagliostro by just putting the sources from my research into it. It didn't premier or win (Cavallaro's mess up) at Cannes. It is sad that some of the most notable and important works languish on here. I am so glad to have you back - we've not met before, but cool name Dandy. Shall we work on it together today? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:37, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
I've already got a few pages to work on tonight but as this has drifted wide of the original topic I will drop by your talk page later to discuss it in more detail. Dandy Sephy (talk) 18:23, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Invitation to User Study

Would you be interested in participating in a user study? We are a team at University of Washington studying methods for finding collaborators within a Misplaced Pages community. We are looking for volunteers to evaluate a new visualization tool. All you need to do is to prepare for your laptop/desktop, web camera, and speaker for video communication with Google Hangout. We will provide you with a Amazon gift card in appreciation of your time and participation. For more information about this study, please visit our wiki page (http://meta.wikimedia.org/Research:Finding_a_Collaborator). If you would like to participate in our user study, please send me a message at Wkmaster (talk) 15:59, 16 January 2014 (UTC).

Project Recruitment

I realized as a WikiProject, we do not have a welcome template to invite new editors to the project.

Based on Template:Ruswelcome: (For the picture accompanying the welcome, would this be a good image?)

Welcome!

Hello, User, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for /user/ contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:

Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{help me}} before the question. Again, welcome!

If you are interested in Anime and manga-related topics, you may want to check out the WikiProject Anime and manga and its task forces, the Anime and Manga Portal and the project discussion page. You might even want to add these pages to your watchlist. ~~~~

Not bad, it is sorta like the regular welcome template. There is a real need to drum up some interest in the area though. So I like this idea. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:21, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

How is this one?

Hi, <Username goes here>. Welcome to Misplaced Pages! I noticed you've just joined, and wanted to give you a few tips to get you started.

ようこそ
  • You don't need to read anything - anybody can edit; just go to an article and edit it. Be Bold, but please don't put silly stuff in - it will be removed very quickly, and will annoy people.
  • Ask for help. Edit this page, put {{helpme}} and describe what help you need. Someone will reply very quickly - usually within a few minutes.
  • Edit existing articles, before you make your own. Look at some subjects that you know about, and see if you can make them a bit better. For example, Misplaced Pages:Cleanup#2009.
  • When you're ready, read about Your first article. It should be about something well-known, and it will need references.

Good luck with editing; please drop me a line some time on my own talk page.

There's lots of information below. Once again, welcome to the fantastic world of Misplaced Pages!

~~~~

Getting started
Policies and guidelines
The community
Writing articles
Seems rather large and intrusive to me. If you're going to drop something like that on every newcomer's user page at all I'd suggest reducing the size of the image at the very least. I'd also suggest making a clearer separation/ distinction between the general welcome to Misplaced Pages and associated suggestion on the one hand and the invitation to this project with associated notes on the other hand.Verso.Sciolto (talk) 06:37, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
What the hell is this for?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:19, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
To welcome new editors with an invitation to join this project. Extremepro (talk) 07:27, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Why do we need something so big and ugly?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:31, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Ryulong, I know I would feel hurt if someone came along and called something I worked on "ugly". You're more than welcome to object to the invitation(s), but please don't use such unkind words. As for me, I think the second invitation is charming. (If I had to be nit-picky, I'd like to see what look like hypens be replaced with dashes.) Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 23:22, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
The hyphens sign the notice when the code is posted, they aren't there for separation. Dandy Sephy (talk) 23:30, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, as for it's size that can always be worked out, I do not see a big deal with it and have used this as my standard welcome for new users minus the anime/manga project wording. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:52, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
The hypens I was referring to are the ones in the prose: e.g. "You don't need to read anything - anybody can edit". Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 23:57, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Sources for release dates

Welcome all new members and welcome back people whom I've never got a chance to meet! I want to ask for some colloboration to fix up the release date issues. I added over 140 citations the other day from a book I have for release dates, but many of our articles are lacking sources for the air dates. Does anyone have knowledge of which websites host release dates and which ones we should be using? Let's pool our resources and fix up this so we can get some FLs. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:27, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

The first step should be the websites for the tv stations and production companies for more recent works (anything after 2000 basically so use archive.org as the pages will probably have been moved/deleted), but this will usually prove a dead end. In general finding the air dates or approximate timeframes for the first and last episodes is going to be fairly easy in many cases, but individual episodes in-between are much harder to find reliable sources for by their nature - they aren't considered that important to have their dates tracked. The best sources are generally Newtype issues from the time the episodes ran or the guidebooks for the series in question. Without those it's quite difficult. Dandy Sephy (talk) 19:40, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
Anime News Network's news releases can be used as RS for release dates. Primary sources also include the maker's websites such as Seven Seas Entertainment Viz Media and such. I also find myself using amazon as it is a major way to get releases out in the public and it has the ISBN info. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:20, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
I use an archive of infoseek when they use to cover anime schedules (2000 to 2008), and I use Tv Guide for English airdates. For release dates, I started using bookonoffline after weird dates from Amazon from old/unknown releases. DragonZero (Talk · Contribs) 21:43, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
Web Newtype use to list air dates, but I don't think it is up any longer and there were frequent errors over the course of it's one month updates. On top of that, they did keep an archive of their previous listings. Not sure what the current status of Syoboi as a reliable source is, but we use to use that as a reliable source. And sometimes, the official website will have the air dates for the episodes. As for release dates for manga volume. If you are lucky, the publisher's website should have them and should be used above all others. If not, Amazon is your next best alternative. 24.149.119.20 (talk) 22:06, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
I've seen Tvdrama-db cited on a few articles after spotting it on the Excel Saga page (specific entry). I'm not sure if this is a contribution based database or not. A search for the author of the site (Furusaki Yasunari) reveals a printed book Terebi Dorama Gensaku Jiten which is available from Amazon Japan and is also a contributor on other culture/drama/anime publications listed on neowing (the Japanese side of CDJapan). For the record Jonathan Clements new Anime History book reveals the Anime Encycopledia used a similar work from the same publisher as part of it's sourcing. However as each book of the books is 14,000yen/$115US/£80+shipping and no previews are available, I'm unwilling to take a chance on them!
Searching the archives reveals the site has been brought up twice before. Arguments seem valid for it being a reliable source, and it's already on the list of websites listed on the project portal reference library following those mentions so we should be using it anyway. This makes most of our air dates supportable through RS.

Dandy Sephy (talk) 03:57, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Monthly Animage issues include a TV Animation World section. It gives the day of the week on which a series is aired in the covered month. Listings per series include time of broadcast, broadcast station/channel, episode titles, staff credits and a brief summary/review.Verso.Sciolto (talk) 04:18, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
  • I think we should prioritize the most popular works for this. I've taken the list from ANN:
  1. Fullmetal Alchemist (TV)
  2. Death Note (TV)
  3. Cowboy Bebop (TV)
  4. (The) Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya (TV)
  5. Elfen Lied (TV)
  6. Neon Genesis Evangelion (TV)
  7. Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion (TV)
  8. Bleach (TV)
  9. FLCL (OAV)
  10. Naruto (TV)
  11. Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion R2 (TV)
  12. Samurai Champloo (TV)
  13. Trigun (TV)
  14. Rurouni Kenshin: Trust & Betrayal (OAV)
  15. Full Metal Panic! (TV)
  16. Gurren Lagann (TV)
  17. Ouran High School Host Club (TV)
  18. Fruits Basket (TV)
  19. Clannad (TV)
  20. Chobits (TV)
  21. Full Metal Panic? Fumoffu (TV)
  22. Rurouni Kenshin (TV)
  23. Hellsing (TV)
  24. Azumanga Daioh (TV)
  25. Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood (TV)
  26. Clannad After Story (TV)
  27. Fate/stay night (TV)
  28. Inuyasha (TV)
  29. Mushi-Shi (TV)
  30. Claymore (TV)
  31. Full Metal Panic! The Second Raid (TV)
  32. Darker than Black (TV)
  33. Blood+ (TV)
  34. Love Hina (TV)
  35. Air (TV) - Already Done.
  36. Black Lagoon (TV) - Already Done.

The easiest ones seem to be the short OVA and some like Hellsing, Trigun and FLCL are a lot easier than Inuyasha, and FMA. Some of the ones seem to already include details on the articles on where we can find more. I think sourcing each and every date (as they are contestable) is the best practice since it seems every error we have on Misplaced Pages results in it being repeated everywhere. Let's bang out this list. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:06, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Code Geass and R2 are done. DragonZero (Talk · Contribs) 05:52, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Just strike em out as we go. There is a lot to check and do. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:12, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
FLCL did have two runs on TV, I'll integrate that into text later, but I know this was on Adult Swim at some point as well. Elfin Lied is now done on the Japanese side, but the NA listings are going to be more difficult. Once everything is cited lets do a FA push and get these taken care of asap. Archive.org has been recently making a habit of citing our sources as they go in, and I've been pulling up some more research books, but they are short on this information. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:08, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Champloo's Japanese airing is done and Kenshin did have the OVA air, but that article needs more work. As do quite a few others. The progress so far has been great. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:36, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
As a general comment, since an editor mentioned Syoboi above, that website was never used as a reliable source; it was merely used without any formal discussion on its reliability. Unless it can be proven to be a reliable source, I would recommend not citing it as a reference.--十八 08:04, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
The information on the website is entered in manually, there is always the chance of an error, but it is verifiable and it doesn't have any reason to be purposely wrong, deceptive or questionable. You can say "oh is this reliable?" when you analyze things for opinion and details, but this is better and very narrow in scope. We avoid Imdb because it is user generated with no oversight. If the data checks out, it should be used and sometimes they are just replacing already known data that 404ed without backup already. By reading the corrections information and noticing proof is required, I do have a feeling this website is accurate and detailed enough to be used for citing the in-between dates for each episode. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:09, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
If the information is user generated/submitted, then is is automatically a no-go as a reliable source. The same reason was given for removing AnimeCons.com as a reliable source, despite AnimeCons.com requiring editorial oversight (verification from a con staffer or the con's webpage) for all submissions. 24.149.119.20 (talk) 01:20, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

There is a big difference, you are not comparing apples to apples. AnimeCons has been used a source in many a scholarly work, so I disagree about it being "unreliable" in general. The different comes from the claim itself - there is no such thing as an unquestionable or infallible source. I've corrected multitudes of errors that A&M's "reliable sources" made. The burden is verifiability and the fact that there is no reasonable assumption the information is wrong. Animecons has a self-serving aspect, which is not the same as Syoboi. Animecons submissions play well to the prominence and community value and hence, business value, of the convention. That is why it is basically under WP:SPS. And the sheer fact that hard numbers are tough to come by in the field, but program information and other details should not be avoided because of the originating domain. That'd be silly. For Syoboi, since you need an official source to "correct it" and the "Air times" are not in any way going to foster capital gains the assumption of accuracy is all that remains. And its pretty easy to take from the TV guide channel and copy it on; and if the dates match the official run times the assumption that the rest being accurate is high. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:06, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't mater if a source has been used in scholarly works. If it is based on user generated/submitted content it is automatically considered not reliable. Heck, even ANN's encyclopedia has been used as a source in scholarly works, but it far from considered reliable on Misplaced Pages. It's unfortunate for AnimeCons as I do believe that their editorial oversight over all submissions would have made it a logical exception. But it doesn't mater how accurate the information may be, all of that is meaningless to the reviewers at WP:RSN. 24.149.119.20 (talk) 11:06, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
Reviewers at RSN are not familiar with A&M and care little to nothing about the situation. They'll take a blatantly wrong book source over an accurate "lesser" response. You have to evaluate it in the same vein as WP:RSVETTING. Let me break it down for you:

The goal

  • What are we trying to do here?
    • Find out if AnimeCons is a reliable source for convention materials (as a whole).

The material

  • What's the material that the ref supports? - Event dates
  • Is it contentious or contended? - No
  • Does the ref indeed support the material? - It does

The editor

  • Who is the author? - N/A
  • Does the author have a Misplaced Pages article? - N/A
  • What are the author's academic credentials and professional experience? - N/A
  • What else has the author published? - Other details from the convention
  • Is the author, or this work, cited in other reliable sources? In academic works? - The site as a whole is.
  • How does the author make a living? Unknown but is owned by Adequate.com suggesting payment and an incentive to not get fired.
  • What about reputation? Are there any big character markers? - Good standing in the community - no obvious markers to doubt. Requests proof for all inclusions, even if user submitted. User submissions are vetted, but ultimately require a less than official publication or comment for inclusion.
  • Does the author have an opinion on the matter? On the continuum running from "utterly disinterested investigator or reporter" to "complete polemicist", where does this person fit? - A reporter unconnected and not a polemicist in any fashion.

The publication

  • What is it?
  • Is it a peer-reviewed scholarly journal, or a magazine (or newspaper) known to have an effective fact-checking operation? - A website with a known and effective fact-checking operation.
  • If not, is there any reason to believe that anyone has checked the author's facts? - By definition, the editor has.
  • What's their circulation? - N/A
  • What about the publisher? What kind of outfit are they? What's their reputation? - N/A
  • Do they have an agenda? - No
  • What's their business incentive for veracity? - Continued operation - if the site falters or degrades it will result in a loss of business.

Other

  • Does the source have standing to address the material? - A fact-requiring website requiring information from the official convention materials or a staff member. The editorial control is someone who does this day-in and day-out over the course of many years.

Summary AnimeCons, by its nature of requiring official sources or staffers is acceptable for non-contentious claims of dates and details that are not self-serving. Editorial control exists, but a weakness exists in the requirement of a staffer, typically a volunteer, being able to submit information which may be accurate or inaccurate. Obvious mistakes would easily be corrected, and while official publications are proper sources, this reduces the effectiveness of the source for attendance records and other specific and detailed information unlikely to be reported or represents an incentive to the convention to report. At the last discussion on Animecons, the website did not match the official convention website, but Animecons correct information came from a squirreled away post that proved to be accurate from the official convention staff member about the convention's cancellation. This shows Animecon's value for non-contentious and routine coverage of its subject topics. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:23, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Then I would advice that you post all of that to WP:RSN because it was this discussion that originally got AnimeCons demoted as a reliable source. A second discussion was inconclusive in reestablishing its status. 24.149.119.20 (talk) 15:53, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
It was not "demoted" and Patrick Delahanty was a founder of Anime Boston, he's long been a reputable figure and I still remember what Delahanty did over a decade ago and how it was done. Delahanty's editorial control and vetting are why I'd say it is acceptable for routine, non-contentious claims. Everything needs a balance and this is why I can point out the errors in Cavallaro's work and still cite her in articles. There is no blanket "reliable or unreliable" definition. Print journalism and books are no different. I've always maintained that. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:00, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Infoboxes

Alright, I think this needs to be discussed... what is with the overly long and overly detailed infoboxes that are deeply intruding into articles? I think Doraemon is how we should go instead of those seen on Naruto and Dragon Ball. At the very least, Naruto can drop the 5 OVAs and 1 novel, its pilot chapter and make better use of the "related works" section and condense it down. Large franchise overviews should not be making a habit of detailing all the media in one super infobox. I believe it would be best to limit it to no more than three sections before a "Related works" and for broad overviews to adopt an appearance like that at Star Trek. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:09, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

I believe this should be case-by-case. It works for Doraemon because it has separate articles for the anime it links to (and by extension, I believe Dragon Ball could easily do the same thing), but most series do not have a separate article for each potential infobox. How would you deal with an article like School Rumble which has 7 boxes: 2 manga, 2 tv series, 2 OVA, and 1 light novel?--十八 06:29, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
I agree we should be doing it case by case here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:43, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Why can't we use the related works section to bring the reader to that exact section of the article in that case? The full details for "School Rumble: Third Semester" should be in the article and not confined only to the infobox. And School Rumble seems to have quite a few issues in need of fixing... like the media which says it is from episode 1, but the file says episode 2. The formatting is weak in places... do we really want to compare how things are done on one article of "FA" quality despite the article being also containing the same problem? I think we should strive for a little more elegance on are "All-in-one" pages. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:59, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
It is not just one but three FA articles we have full infobox information. The info is informative and helps the reader break down what is in the article. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:20, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
I think a problem with comparing it to Star Trek is that Trek's works can stand individually from the franchise. You can quite happily ignore one or many of the series or films and not worry about the others (I personally don't dislike Enterprise, but at the same time am quite happy not to count include it when discussing the franchise, and lots of people ignore the movies that aren't 2,4,6,8 or the reboots and Voyager strongly polarises opinion). In the case of manga/anime that isn't really true, interest tends to be on a franchise level and leaves little to no room for each individual aspect having prominence of it's own - there are exceptions to the rule but it's a fairly small percentage. Really though this is the sort of thing that doesn't need a project wide solution, it only affects a few heavy franchises and they are all different so should be treated individually. Really I'd leave them as is unless it's made an issue in GA/FA reviews. Dandy Sephy (talk) 15:13, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Fair enough, I've always been a bit wary of the intrusion. Though this is more cosmetic given the current state of coverage of the project. Better than the rest of the world's Wikipedias, but playing catch up to other sites. Looking professional can come a bit later. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:30, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Mobile Fighter G Gundam for peer review

Mobile Fighter G Gundam is now currently undergoing a peer review. Please come share your thoughts. Thank you. ~ Hibana (talk) 12:31, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

The Sailor Moon articles need help

I suggest making Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Sailor Moon active again by recruitment as the pages Sailor Moon (character) and such really need work done. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:44, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Most of the issues can be done quickly, they are mostly too much in-universe coverage. FOr one, the table of forms should be removed. its unnecessary to list when exactly a form was introduced. Other than that, not a whole lot needs to be done, just condensing. I'll look into it, because i have been looking over at them for a while. But whether making the Sailor Moon wikiproject active again....its no different from other taskforce we have. we can discuss any sailor moon article here.Lucia Black (talk) 23:49, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
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