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Revision as of 01:49, 29 November 2014 editSineBot (talk | contribs)Bots2,556,345 editsm Signing comment by 76.64.35.209 - "→Question about Outing Policy: "← Previous edit Revision as of 03:19, 29 November 2014 edit undoPresN (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators79,291 edits →Question for mostly uninvolved admin PresNNext edit →
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::Wait . . . what the hell?! Whose brilliant idea was to the policy? According to that month-old version I just engaged in outing merely by asking the above question, but I refuse to consider this to be the case. It would be one thing if the account was under a different name and they weren't talking shit about Misplaced Pages, but in what universe is it "posting personal information" to suggest that someone using the exact same name as a Misplaced Pages editor, identifying as a Misplaced Pages editor, and discussing Misplaced Pages-related issues, might actually be that Misplaced Pages editor? Some people are really taking this whole "secret identity" thing all the way to Clark Kent levels of stupidity.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 01:18, 29 November 2014 (UTC) ::Wait . . . what the hell?! Whose brilliant idea was to the policy? According to that month-old version I just engaged in outing merely by asking the above question, but I refuse to consider this to be the case. It would be one thing if the account was under a different name and they weren't talking shit about Misplaced Pages, but in what universe is it "posting personal information" to suggest that someone using the exact same name as a Misplaced Pages editor, identifying as a Misplaced Pages editor, and discussing Misplaced Pages-related issues, might actually be that Misplaced Pages editor? Some people are really taking this whole "secret identity" thing all the way to Clark Kent levels of stupidity.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 01:18, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
:::Looks like it was claimed to have been done based on what ] said. That "other contact information" a subset of which includes "any other accounts on any other web sites". If this was not changed based on information from ], I would ask that it be reverted (but clearly I don't know if that is the case or not). --] (]) 01:26, 29 November 2014 (UTC) :::Looks like it was claimed to have been done based on what ] said. That "other contact information" a subset of which includes "any other accounts on any other web sites". If this was not changed based on information from ], I would ask that it be reverted (but clearly I don't know if that is the case or not). --] (]) 01:26, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
:To answer the original question: PresN on Misplaced Pages is just as much PresN on Reddit as Loganmac on Misplaced Pages is Logan_Mac on Reddit. Which is to say, unless God himself comes down and declares the IP address of both accounts to be the same, Logan will continue to smugly deny that they're the same, so there's no earthly way to prove that either/both accounts aren't smirkingly denying the obvious, so no. There's tons of people out there who think "PresN" is a great user name. I think I'm supposed to ban you now? --''']]''' 03:19, 29 November 2014 (UTC)


== Question about contributing == == Question about contributing ==

Revision as of 03:19, 29 November 2014

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Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator or clerk, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behaviour during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.

That didn't take long

And an SPA has already messed up the page. Is only a clerk allowed to clean that up or what? Silverseren 02:51, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

It had to be expected, I and several others took to his talk page already. Hopefully this will get cleaned up. Weedwacker (talk) 03:43, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Don't bite the noobs people, people politely explained to him what he did wrong, it was fixed. It's OK now Loganmac (talk) 03:50, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
That's because I'm the one who fixed it's formatting before the editor redacted it. It still doesn't belong.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:47, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Ryulong here, it doesn't belong as it's not relevant to the purpose of the Arbitration. Weedwacker (talk) 05:08, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Quick question about standards of evidence

User:Silver seren, are we seriously entertaining the use of a webpage - one that's in Alexa's top 5,000 - as evidence of the POV bias of parties to the case? In that case, shall we also consider the use of, say, unusual rhetoric (such as "sea lioning", a term which I've thus far only heard from anti-GG and which in fact was coined recently while all of this was going on; or "reactionary", which seems to come directly from Marxist social circles)?

76.64.35.209 (talk) 04:11, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

I want to add in to this discussion of User:Silver seren's comments about archive.today (This may be better suited for a refutation within an actual evidence presentation on the main page, but I have not yet made one with new evidence to present that has not already been placed there). Associating the use of a website used for snapshotting purposes with a particular group and implying they should be disregarded for this is quite troubling. Also, quoting Silver: "And, yes, I have screenshots of this, which is necessary since they often delete or change comments in order to pretend certain things were not said". This statement proves the occasional necessity of archives, and they are more reliable than screenshots which are easier to manipulate. In response to comments on the exact evidence links posted having been compiled offsite and sourced for here, the archive links were mostly ones initially posted by myself on the ANI discussion, ones which I collected myself through either creating new archives of pages or using the archive website to select already made snapshots of pages saved on archive.today. These archives were also necessary for showing changes that had taken place on the pages in question, with relevant new things added and relevant old things that had been removed. Also, are you really making the accusation that a post on an anonymous board claiming to be an editor here should be taken seriously? Weedwacker (talk) 05:36, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
That's especially rich seeing as SilverSeren has been a recurring presence at the GamerGhazi subreddit.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 05:53, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I have. Problem? I haven't been discussing the Misplaced Pages article there, while that's pretty much the only thing you've been doing over at The Escapist. Well, that and also trying to dox/out a Wikipedian that doesn't edit anymore. Silverseren 06:15, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
I will only comment that it seems hypocritical in this case for you to point out other editors for personal involvementWeedwacker (talk) 06:31, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
You are being a bit disingenuous on your Reddit activity regarding this issue, but I don't think anything you have done there is a problem just like I don't think anything I have done on The Escapist is a problem (saying a Twitter user who talks about having edited Misplaced Pages is, in fact, the same as a Misplaced Pages user with the exact same pseudonym does not constitute outing). It is only funny because you are going all "Muh collusion!" over the slimmest associations with 8chan.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 06:45, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Your only reason for going after said user in the first place is because they make Storifys that detail the horrible comments made by Gamergate proponents. Unless you have an actual reason for doing so, other than that he is anti-Gamergate? Have you done as such for any pro-Gamergate people, several of which who have claimed to have edited Misplaced Pages? Silverseren 07:05, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
I thought they would find it interesting that a prominent member of GamerGate's opposition had such a colorful past here.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 07:20, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
"saying a Twitter user who talks about having edited Misplaced Pages is, in fact, the same as a Misplaced Pages user with the exact same pseudonym does not constitute outing". Agreed. This is especially amusing to me in a context where both of you have implicitly accused each other of being the same user off-wiki (on Reddit and The Escapist respectively) and implicitly admitted each other's claims. 76.64.35.209 (talk) 07:02, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Clarification request

User:Tstormcandy, could you please quickly clarify what you mean by "obstructionist" evidence, and explain how coordinating an effort to gather such evidence has anything to do with "deliberate harassment"? It looks to me from the pastebin like the intent is/was to turn up diffs - you know, the same standard of evidence that Arbcom demands - and present them with minimal comment for the consideration of the general public. 76.64.35.209 (talk) 07:07, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

My statement is meant to be more "big picture". I cited precedent of when ArbCom used off-site evidence in a similar situation, thus making it part of "standard evidence". There are literal how-tos and instructions on where and what to post given to users in the forums I linked, including block evasion discussion. As a WP:SPA IP user with mysteriously high knowledge of Misplaced Pages you are, ironically, a perfect example of what I'm talking about to where I wouldn't be shocked if you came up at WP:SPI eventually. Bluntly, you could be evidence. ♪ Tstorm(talk) 10:05, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
The hounding of those listed on the "Horsemen" pastebin after the date it was posted speak for themselves on incident boards and talk pages. I have no interest in commenting on this case further as I do not wish to display partisan bias. My only complaints are those against policy regardless of who committed them. I don't care who is being talked at or why. Only that it is damaging. signed as a separate comment ♪ Tstorm(talk) 10:05, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
That reads like a threat, and also does almost nothing to answer my questions. Any knowledge of WP I have is the result of paying attention while reading these discussions and being a quick study. I've been around; I'm the "previously involved IP user" from the statements made in the case request. I assure you I am only "sockpuppeting" for myself, as my IP is not under my direct control.
That said, I don't really understand what your involvement here is. I can't say I recognize your username and you didn't make a statement in the case request. 76.64.35.209 (talk) 17:56, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Ryulong's BLP claim against me

Appears the desire of others to touch the shiny tempting button is too great to leave it out in the open.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 07:59, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

I love how someone repeatedly accusing me of not really violating BLP, but almost doing it, is only advertising the very thing that is supposedly so suggestive like some sort of Gilbert Gottfried bit, but I believe the only way I can feel comfortable addressing this is in private with the Arbs. Comment from the Arbs on that front por favor?--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 07:12, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

It's pretty obvious from the diff that you were referencing or otherwise hinting at something that if you actually said it, it would be a BLP violation toward the article subject. Silverseren 07:15, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Nice to see you also acknowledging that it was not a BLP violation. This is great. Let's just keep talking publicly about this thing that is not a BLP violation and make people even more curious to learn what it is about. I think that makes total sense.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 07:23, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
You intentionally toed the line in a way that was much more pointed than any of my additions to the Gamergate article that you simply dislike.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:29, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Pray tell, how else could one make the case that "we should favor images from late 2008 onward"? (Do you dispute that we should? Do you believe you know specifically what's being hinted at?) 76.64.35.209 (talk) 07:37, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Stop pressing the button you fools!--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 07:59, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Question about Outing Policy

If I were to present evidence that commented on the offsite behaviour of editors, and the potential for serious problems their behaviour could have and has caused, would this be in violation of WP:OUTING? Bosstopher (talk) 08:20, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it could easily be. Bearing in mind that we only rarely take off-wiki stuff into account, you should ask yourself whether such evidence has any probative use. Even so, best is to email the committee, using the email user function on this page.  Roger Davies 12:06, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. In that case I'll email any parts of my statement relating to non-acknowledged accounts to arbcom instead of posting them here.Bosstopher (talk) 13:06, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
It seems like a lot of people here are angling to cite off-wiki stuff. Are there any general guidelines for what's relevant? I fear that arbcom is going to be getting a lot of email if everyone decides to take the "safe" route... 76.64.35.209 (talk) 17:58, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes. We normally only take off-wiki stuff into account if it is serious (typically outing, threats of violence etc). We don't usually act on stuff about off-wiki cabals because it's very difficult to prove who the individuals are and what they're up to with any degree of certainty. Joejobbing is also not unheard of. Simply put, we are not law enforcement and we have no resources for dealing with stuff like:
  • "User:XXX on ForumABC is probably WikiUser:XYZ and was talking on Forum123 with User:YYY (who could easily be WikiUser:Ynot on wikipedia) to say nasty stuff about John Doe, who probably edits Misplaced Pages as User:WWW. ArbCom therefore needs to ban them."
So, to cut a long story short, the less private evidence the better.  Roger Davies 01:29, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
To be clear, would evidence of, say, paid editing be considered "serious"? But presumably not evidence of WP:POV? How about, say, conspiring to violate WP:BLP? Those seem to be the major categories of why people want to bring up off-wiki evidence, from what I've seen (apologies in advance if anyone feels misrepresented by that; that's just how it's come across so far). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.35.209 (talk) 01:48, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
If this is for that screencap I posted on Twitter, I already apologized if you took it as a personal attack and not a general criticism of Misplaced Pages. Loganmac (talk) 01:02, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Please, guys

DSA, Bosstopher, please treat this seriously. Don't add anything to the main section header that is not your user name, and DSA, I think it has to be your full user name.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:05, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to go to their talkpages and add a comment if there isn't one already. HalfHat 20:17, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Regarding users blocked

The following users are blocked on Misplaced Pages who participated in the original case.

Tobascoman77 is blocked indefinitely and as a result cannot participate in this ArbCom case even though they expressed interest on Contributing to this page, being blocked indefinitely for WP:NOTHERE ArmyLine is blocked for a week (5 days from now) and this may limit their evidence collecting and workshop time.

I propose a limited terms unblock for the both of them, ArmyLine topic banned to only ArbCom's namespace for this case for 5 days, and Tobascoman77 the same, indefinitely pending any result overturning his block as a final result of this ArbCom case. Tutelary (talk) 21:04, 28 November 2014 (UTC) See below. Tutelary (talk) 22:06, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Struck proposal, per the above. Tutelary (talk) 22:06, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Clarification request #2

User:Tarc, in reference to your statement "I will make no apologies for expressing empathy to victims of rape and murder abuse, nor for assuring them that the Misplaced Pages has strict policies against scurrilous tabloid material, and that they wiki-bios will be written fairly and neutrally. " - what are "victims of rape and murder abuse", exactly? I really can't find a way to parse that that makes sense. The most likely interpretation I can think of is that 'rape' and 'murder' are both intended separately as modifiers for 'abuse', but I don't really understand what "rape abuse" and "murder abuse" are supposed to be. Did you perhaps mean "rape and murder threats"? In which case, is the argument then that the recipient of a threat is ipso facto a "victim"? 76.64.35.209 (talk) 21:46, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, "threats" would have been a better word choice Sorry, was in a hurry. Tarc (talk) 21:50, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Question on PresN's evidence

@PresN: Do you have any evidence that Logan_Mac on reddit is User:Loganmac on Misplaced Pages? (Anyone can go create a reddit name that is similar to a wiki name and then act badly on it) I'm not saying the evidence doesn't exist, but just curious (maybe I missed it?). --Obsidi (talk) 22:52, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Added some, going through his edit history to find more. --PresN 22:53, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. --Obsidi (talk) 22:59, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Also, can I add that it is exceedingly tedious that several editors on one side of this issue keep trying to coyly pretend that wikipedia users who make comments about reddit posts of theirs and Reddit users with the same screenname who make posts about their wikipedia edits are not, in fact, the same users. --PresN 23:01, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
I have no idea who is who on reddit (I almost never go on there). I'm not trying to "coyly pretend" anything, I just don't know. --Obsidi (talk) 23:03, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
PS. looking over that thread (which I hadn't seen before) makes me kind of angry. To me it looks like Ryūlóng was WP:OUTING User:Loganmac when he says: "That account is definitely you and it's been established onsite already when you posted about that other person and you didn't deny owning the account then." per WP:OUTING you have not "established onsite" if you fail to deny that it is your account. That said, I am unsure of the policy now if Loganmac response confirms it, the policy gets a lot less clear. --Obsidi (talk) 23:12, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Since there has been a lot of talk about WP:OUTING now I have attempted a proposal about it in the Workshop. It's probably terrible but please have a look. 76.64.35.209 (talk) 23:16, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Loganmac and Logan_Mac are close enough in name and behavior to eliminate reasonable doubt. Just because he doesn't want to own up to his harassment offsite does not mean that this is a violation of outing.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 00:16, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
If he has not "own up to it", it is WP:OUTING, as the policy page says: "Posting another editor's personal information is harassment, unless that person had voluntarily posted his or her own information, or links to such information, on Misplaced Pages." And as an example of "Personal information", it gives "other contact information (including any other accounts on any other web sites)", so unless User:Loganmac has done something on Misplaced Pages to say that account is his, it is WP:OUTTING to say that it is. (Not to mention that it is potentially inaccurate as anyone can create an off-wiki account with the same/similar name) --Obsidi (talk) 00:27, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
Occam's razor. Someone who has been heavily involved in Reddit's "KotakuInAction" board with the screenname "Logan_Mac" before Loganmac returned to editing Misplaced Pages has almost exclusively been posting about Misplaced Pages on the "KotakuInAction" board and often attacking me when I have been in content disputes with Loganmac on Misplaced Pages. "That might not be me mate" is not a valid defense as described at WP:OUTING either.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 00:34, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
Even if you are right (lets assume for the moment you are), that still violates WP:OUTING. Do you think it is ok to post the address/phone number of someone just because you are correct that it is their address/phone number? Clearly not, so being "right" that they are the same person just makes the WP:OUTING even worse. --Obsidi (talk) 00:47, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

@PresN:, so I am looking at the on-wiki thread that you linked to. And he objects to any off-wiki accusation and then says "that account might not be mine mate", that seems to be what WP policy says to do when someone does that, per WP:OUTING: "do not confirm or deny the accuracy of the information." And then Loganmac says: "And on the reddit account, silence doesn't mean admission". So can you, PresN, explain why you think that the WP user User:Loganmac identifies the user Logan_Mac on reddit as himself on that thread ? --Obsidi (talk) 00:21, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Ryulong given that you are highly involved in this, it's probably wise to let uninvolved users (preferably Arbs and Clerks) to decide how similar their behaviour is. HalfHat 00:24, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
I can make up my mind and inform the arbitrators about it and others. Besides, it is not my evidence in question here.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 00:34, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

I have posted an easy point-by-point rebuttal on his user page I find him linking me to mocking mental retardation sickening. Loganmac (talk) 00:57, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

So, are you denying that the reddit user "logan_mac" is you, or not? If not, it is admirable that you've created a point by point rebuttal to defend this person. Parabolist (talk) 01:13, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
He doesn't need to deny that the reddit user "logan_mac" is him. As long as he does not admit that it is him on WP, then the two accounts should not be associated on WP. --Obsidi (talk) 01:18, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
Read it again, the rebuttal is to defend myself from accusations he made against ME, this Wiki account. Like me mocking mental retardation. And looking at how he got half the stuff wrong to accuse me with. Loganmac (talk) 01:23, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Question for mostly uninvolved admin PresN

PresN is this Reddit user that has been arguing with Loganmac and other Misplaced Pages users about the GamerGate coverage on Misplaced Pages you? This three-year-old account certainly claims to belong to an admin using the username PresN on Misplaced Pages who had participated in the discussion about Quinn's photo. If not, should we contact the Reddit authorites so they can shut that shit down?--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 00:42, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

You shouldn't be asking him this (again see WP:OUTING). --Obsidi (talk) 01:13, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
Wait . . . what the hell?! Whose brilliant idea was this change to the policy? According to that month-old version I just engaged in outing merely by asking the above question, but I refuse to consider this to be the case. It would be one thing if the account was under a different name and they weren't talking shit about Misplaced Pages, but in what universe is it "posting personal information" to suggest that someone using the exact same name as a Misplaced Pages editor, identifying as a Misplaced Pages editor, and discussing Misplaced Pages-related issues, might actually be that Misplaced Pages editor? Some people are really taking this whole "secret identity" thing all the way to Clark Kent levels of stupidity.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 01:18, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
Looks like it was claimed to have been done based on what WP:FUNC said. That "other contact information" a subset of which includes "any other accounts on any other web sites". If this was not changed based on information from WP:FUNC, I would ask that it be reverted (but clearly I don't know if that is the case or not). --Obsidi (talk) 01:26, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
To answer the original question: PresN on Misplaced Pages is just as much PresN on Reddit as Loganmac on Misplaced Pages is Logan_Mac on Reddit. Which is to say, unless God himself comes down and declares the IP address of both accounts to be the same, Logan will continue to smugly deny that they're the same, so there's no earthly way to prove that either/both accounts aren't smirkingly denying the obvious, so no. There's tons of people out there who think "PresN" is a great user name. I think I'm supposed to ban you now? --PresN 03:19, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Question about contributing

I would like to make some arguments that, while they don't directly point to anyone's wrongdoing, should provide important context for the claims of others. In particular I wish to argue about (a) the nature of specific claims made by individuals involved in Gamergate, as they relate to BLP policy; and (b) how the RS policy works/ought to work, and differences between talk page discussion and main page writing.

Is there a place for that on the evidence page? Would it be better on this talk page? I could probably find a few relevant diffs highlighting things that can be seen as undesirable editor behaviour in that context, but it would still mean writing a lot of argument and little actual evidence.

76.64.35.209 (talk) 03:59, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

To be more explicit/general: Where exactly is the correct place to propose "findings of fact" that don't refer to any specific wrongdoings by users, but which should be agreed upon in order to be able to interpret evidence and arguments sanely? In particular, where is the correct place for assertions about what the (putatively) reliable sources actually say, and about how the guidelines for interpreting WP:RS should be interpreted in the specific context of Gamergate? 76.64.35.209 (talk) 01:01, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate/Evidence: Difference between revisions Add topic