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Image:CIMG2973 bkanzleramt wien.jpg-Office of the Federal Chancellor Vienna is available, but there is no good place to put it right now.--DO11.10 22:35, 4 May 2007 (UTC)austria's government is a parliamentary representation democratic republic.

Requested move 24 November 2014

It has been proposed in this section that Government of Austria be renamed and moved to Cabinet of Austria. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Austrian Federal Government → Cabinet of Austria – The article doesn't describe the Austrian federal government as a whole, it describes the Bundesregierung, i.e. the cabinet. The intro explicitly says it's a cabinet that's the subject of the article. The page lists itself under "Executive" in the infobox, is in the National cabinets category, and uses the National cabinets of Europe navigation template. Every other article in the template is named Cabinet of XXX. Comprehensive articles on the other branches of the Austrian federal government and their constitutional frameworks do exist. --Relisted. Dekimasuよ! 01:40, 3 December 2014 (UTC)  – Damvile (talk) 08:48, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:22, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Comment. Google translates "Bundesregierung" to "Federal government", not to "Cabinet". – Wbm1058 (talk) 12:27, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Reply. Regierung can mean government, administration, cabinet, rule, regime, or several other things: , , . German (and Austrian) media and government publications alike routinely use the word to mean cabinet or administration. The British cabinet becomes the Regierung Cameron: , , , . The Israeli cabinet becomes a Regierung, and the Israeli prime minister becomes the Regierungschef: . The Irish cabinet becomes a Regierung: . The Obama administration becomes the Obama-Regierung or Regierung Obama: , , , , . Note that the sources I'm citing include leading magazines and prestige broadsheets as well as one tabloid, one sleazy gossip rag, and the web site of the German Foreign Office.

When you look up the English word for Regierung in a German-made (or Austrian-made) dictionary, you will indeed see government listed as the primary translation, so Google is neither wrong nor an outlier. It is also not really refuting anything, however.

Having acknowledged these ambiguities, the article very clearly is about a cabinet. It says so in its first sentence. It says so in ten more places in the body text. It says so in the infobox, where is describes its subject as a part of the executive branch of government. It says so in an image caption, in its category links, and in its use of the "National cabinets of Europe" navigation template.

Articles about the cabinet of X are pretty consistently called Cabinet of X around here. In particular, the articles on three out of four other European cabinets are called Cabinet of X. Just click the links in the nav template:

• 6 of the places listed have no cabinets in the conventional sense;
• 2 have cabinets but no useful link targets for them;
• in 28 out of the remaining 40 cases, the article (or section) on the cabinet has the word "cabinet" in its heading.

Most notably, the article on the German cabinet is listed as Cabinet of Germany, even though that body is called Bundesregierung in German, exactly like its Austrian equivalent. If the German cabinet is not the precedent to follow, then what is? Damvile (talk) 16:24, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, German Federal Government has redirected to Politics of Germany since 28 October 2006, while German Federal government has redirected to Cabinet of Germany since 4 April 2009 (these might be listed at Inconsistent similar redirects). I'm not convinced that there's a right or wrong answer here, but, as nobody else seems to have an opinion, I'm inclined to support your request. Wbm1058 (talk) 22:47, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

See also Talk:Cabinet of France § Move? (6 Dec 2014). Surely this gives better insight into why this move might be considered to be controversial. – Wbm1058 (talk) 03:13, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose – Something is being lost in translation here. This body is the government, it is not a "cabinet". German has a word for cabinet, and it isn't being used here. I don't understand why people can't tell the difference between a government and a cabinet. This is a government. It is no different than the Government of the United Kingdom. "Government" means the executive. I've now found out that the reason many articles that shouldn't be are at the "Cabinet of XXX" title is because one of editor, Neelix (talk · contribs), went around and "standardised" many of these articles in 2011 to use "cabinet", even when "cabinet" is not an appropriate translation. Just to be clear, a "cabinet" and a "government" are not the same thing. There is a difference between the Government of the United Kingdom and the Cabinet of the United Kingdom. RGloucester — ☎ 03:32, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

As an example of one of Neelix's moves, one can see this. I'm not oppose to consistency, which is an article title criteria here. However, translating things incorrectly, and misleadingly, is not acceptable, especially when done unilaterally across broad swathes of articles. The extent of these changes is staggering. He made such questionable moves as to moving the Federal Council (Switzerland) to Cabinet of Switzerland, which shows a complete lack of political understanding. In other words, do not base a move on a consistency that it is false, and was unilaterally created by one user. Luckily, it appears may reversions have been made. I will start reverting his inappropriate moves now. RGloucester — ☎ 03:43, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Comment. One of your observations is irrelevant; the other one is an argument for the move.

1. Yes, we do have a word for "cabinet" (Kabinett). However, as I have pointed out above, it is only rarely used in this context. We use the word Kabinett (a) to refer to a small room in an apartment, (b) as a euphemism for "toilet," (c) for a type of wine. The standard translation for "cabinet" in the sense of the council of ministers is Regierung.
2. Yes, a "cabinet" and a "government" are indeed not the same thing. In particular, the word "government" is ambiguous in the sense that it can be used to include the legislative and judiciary branches. The word "cabinet" cannot; it exclusively means the council that heads the executive branch, which is what this article is about. If nothing else, at the very least the move would therefore remove ambiguity. Based on the title, many readers would assume an article called "Federal Government of Austria" to be about, well, the entire government, not just one of its many bodies. Damvile (talk) 21:39, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

No readers would assume that, and even if they did, per MOS:RETAIN, we shouldn't change it. "Cabinet" does not necessarily mean the "council that heads the executive branch". The vast majority of the world uses "government" in the sense of executive. There is no confusion. There is no reason to move this article to a title that has no basis in sources. RGloucester — ☎ 14:36, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support 'Government' means executive only in the UK; everywhere else this title is deeply misleading. I am open to other titles than 'cabinet' specifically. Oreo Priest 07:36, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
• Support - per Oreo Priest's argument, and for consistency. I would oppose moves of other articles from this title format to "official" titles, and would even recommend that Federal Council (Switzerland) be moved back to this format. Consider this article; we are clearly talking about cabinets, while "government" refers to a system (not simply the executive/cabinet, except in the case of British English), as expressed on the corresponding article. Neelix (talk) 13:11, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

He has no argument. "Government" does not mean "Cabinet" in British English. We have a cabinet. It is not the same as our government. This is not misleading, and guess what, it also happens to mean "government" in German, and the government also happens to use "government" in English translation. If you're going to say it is "confusing" in American English, I'll say that it will be confusing in every variety other English if you move this. Anyway, MOS:RETAIN applies if you're going to apply WP:ENGVAR. There is no reason to move away from the correct translation. Regardless, none of that matters here. There is no consistency, since you invented one out of thin air. It isn't only in "British English". Government refers to the collective executive in British English, Canadian English, Australian English, New Zealand English, Indian English, and in all of the various African varieties of English. You're making a bizarre distinction that doesn't make any sense to anyone that understands parliamentary systems. This is not a cabinet. In the Austrian system it is the Ministerrat that is the cabinet. Ministerrat is usually translated as "Council of Ministers". The "government" includes all junior and senior ministers, whereas the Council of Ministers only includes ministry heads, just like with the British cabinet. The "government" is not a "cabinet". RGloucester — ☎ 14:36, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

You're simply wrong about the Austrian system. The Ministerrat is what the Bundesregierung is (sometimes) called when in formal session as a deliberative body. Ministerrat and Bundesregierung contain exactly the same people: chancellor, vice chancellor, ministers. The B-VG doesn't even actually contain the word Ministerrat, even though it spends reams and reams of words talking about what chancellors and ministers can do individually and what they can only do as a formally convened collective. Damvile (talk) 21:57, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Ah! Constitutional quirks. That's exactly the point, though. The Ministerrat functions like a "cabinet", as these are deliberative supreme bodies that meet in formal meetings on a regular schedule, whereas everyday work is that of the government. Executive decisions are those of the cabinet. This is the same distinction made in the British and French governments, even if in this case the membership is exactly the same. In that way, it seems to be similar to the Dutch ministerraad. RGloucester — ☎ 03:10, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

• To be clear, look at this Ngrams search. There are almost no hits for "Cabinet of Austria". It seems that this body is usually called "Austrian Government" rather than "Austrian Federal Government", but it is almost never called "Cabinet of Austria". I wouldn't be opposed to using "Austrian Government", if anyone wants to propose that. It is clearly favoured by reliable sources. One thing is clear, however. "Cabinet of Austria" is simply wrong. RGloucester — ☎ 03:15, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. We should not be seeking to impose consistency in article titles by merely boxing things into a single term where that term is neither the majority use in sources nor exactly translatable to the different concepts at issue. bd2412 T 17:52, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
• Comment No real opinion on this, but just a note to the closer that there has been some fairly blatant canvassing at WP:Politics. Number 57 18:16, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

It isn't "canvasing" to ask for third opinions on a politics-related matter at the politics WikiProject. If you'd like to play legal games, do so elsewhere. RGloucester — ☎ 18:19, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

• Requested moves