| Revision as of 07:28, 3 May 2015 view source108.73.112.237 (talk) wha? Undid revision 654743774 by 108.73.115.149 (talk)← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 16:53, 3 May 2015 view source Arthur Rubin (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Rollbackers130,168 editsm Protected User talk:Anna F remote: The last 7 edits which were not reverts were by IPs who were probably the same banned editor ( (indefinite) (indefinite)) | ||
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| #REDIRECT ] | |||
| ] (]) 23:52, 10 July 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == RE: ] == | |||
| You seem to have a somewhat lack-of-understanding of ''the IP''. Would you like to communicate on it further, or not? It is difficult to judge emotions on a computer screen. ] (]) 23:33, 6 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :Yes! Please tell me what you think and how you feel and why you do the things you do. ] (]) 11:04, 7 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::When I get more time (hopefully later this evening) I will communicate with you. | |||
| ::If you can tolerate a great deal of information at once, in preparation for our communication; see (pre-2014). You will also see a rough notepad for this discusssion stored within this ''User_talk'''s history. ] (]) 21:18, 7 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'll be from a differnet IP. ] (]) 23:36, 7 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::To be honest, I can't tolerate a great deal of information. Millions of diffs and links aren't going to help me understand. I really want to know how your involvement in Misplaced Pages is helpful in your mind. How are you a force for good? Please, speak philosophically and ideologically, etc. Thank you. ] (]) 01:05, 8 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::Okay. I see the 800+ links. Are you saying that Climate change exists and that there is an effort to whitewash Misplaced Pages articles and you are dedicated to countering that? Please summarize what you are doing and why. Then, let's go from there. Cheers, ] (]) 01:09, 8 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The Notes were for me, really. They were captured before ] was obliterated, including audit trails. | |||
| ::::I am not saying "there is an effort to whitewash" (there is authentic objective evidence of that (not from me), along with understandable self-interest (also for ])). So what? I am not "dedicated to countering that". I would love to be free of the AR goon squad; so I could better contribute to wp appropriately and easily. | |||
| ::::I started editing wp in the late summer of 2009, after a few years of increasingly utilizing it (free "knowledge", great!). Immediately after my naïve edit attempts (I learn slowly, but I learn well), User:Arthur Rubin ("AR", I'll assume as he says he is "Arthur Rubin" (wp article) per AR's statement, for this discussion) belligerently deleted my efforts; then AR proceeded to stalk me as I attempted to improve my editing skills. Why!? My first thoughts were, it's the internet, all-kinds of sketchy individuals; so what, wp had some community guidelines so this person's behavior will be weeded-out? Right? Well, no. It got even worse. I attempted to avoid, I attempted to make jokes (friends?), I attempted to reason; then with a history (audit trails) I attempted to understand motivations. That was four and 3/4 years ago. What I first guessed naïvely was a misunderstanding was worse. AR seemed obsessed with exterminating any edit I made, no plausible Edit Summary needed. He goaded me with insults; using extremist wording. (What is it they say ]?) A few half-hearted uneasy attempts were made by other editors to dissuade AR's onslaught over the years, with less than healthy results. In fact, AR gained a follower (NewsAndEventsGuy, "NEG") and some occasional backers (Vsmith) and some punctuated situational backers (JamesBWatson), among other lurkers. They attempted to find where I was physically located, when I ate, whether I was on vacation, what my financial situation was, what my career path has been; basically how-to-get-me (I thought about contacting policing services, but what would they do; nothing). He even attempted to get the entire state of Michigan's internet blocked from accessing Misplaced Pages. He inquired about ] (for himself). He stated he wanted to get Wikimedia's servers to be based in the U.S.. | |||
| ::::I failed, and the way I proceeded was the only way I could see to continue to give-back to "the Project"; waiting, hoping things would get better (or was/is wp doomed?) Even AR admits 97.87.29.188 was blocked for a trivial reason unrelated to me. And he re-blocked that IP. Then that IP was blocked on all languages, and the User who did it wouldn't discuss it, and then that IP was blocked from talking to anyone (last I check). Silenced. I could only suspect "goon" involvement there. Does wp have equal and just processes, or are its processes a thumb on its own scales of justice. My motivations are not ] (I don't belong to any organization and I'm nonpartisan for example), but what I do expect is the wp "community" to be just to volunteers who make positive contributions. My understanding is "the Project" is to make an up-to-date accurate encyclopedia. Not easy to do with mob mentalities and any-sketchy-individual/group-with-less-than-credible-authority-on-the-topic(s) can edit; let alone "incentivized" ones. | |||
| ::::Well, I should take a breath. Good luck to you and best wishes to the health of the community. ] (]) 03:33, 8 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Thank you. That actually really helps me understand. I'll need a bit of time to respond as I have a few busy days ahead off-wikipedia. ] (]) 00:15, 9 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Received. ] (]) 05:17, 9 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Hello, Mr. IP Man. | |||
| :::::::You may be absolutely right about what happened, and it may be a huge injustice. Figuring that out is not step one. This reminds me of when a large, powerful nation commits an injustice, and the only way the little guy can respond is through guerilla tactics and jungle warfare. What can the little guy do? The game is rigged. He can't get an even shake. Well, if what you are saying is true, then it's the same, but with one, important exception: the game is not rigged. Misplaced Pages is transparent, and neutral editors are many and brave. The trouble is, you have the status of a blocked editor who has gone rogue, and who is bombing those lending an ear with tons of diffs to read. But, what you wrote above is quite succint. If presented by the right person, at the right place, it would draw eyes an further investigation. | |||
| :::::::The choice before you must be to either walk, or to deal with the block thing and then succinctly present the issue to the neutral community. The choice of just going rogue is a bad one. You have nobody else to examine things with you to be sure things are what they seem. Plus, the very course of being rogue means nobody will support you. | |||
| :::::::So, if you do want to expose this alleged great wrong, (instead of fighting it, which is exactly what you are doing), then you must first address the block problem. Are you willing to do that? Best wishes, ] (]) 10:12, 14 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
| *(od) How can I be assured of a "neutral community"? The vested interest of extraction industries are huge. For example, Exxon has recently made the most money "in the history of money". Per Transparency International, the corruption of the US government has gone up. Our Supreme Court supports plutocracy. Movements toward global warming mitigation (and even adaptation) are not strong enough and quite vulnerable; climate engineering is the business-as-usual fallback. I personally feel my future and quality-of-life is endangered from what I have attempted on Misplaced Pages. Some of these people are extremist armed ideologues, let alone people who are concerned about their jobs. Overclass billionaires can be psychopaths (i.e. not capable of empathy) and are personally intelligent and talented, besides having a great deal of (overweighted) personal power. If one has to right tools or clearance, it is possible to track-me-down and have dramatic painful impacts on my world. I am not attempting to make you feel creepy, I just don't know what you know can be done. What is key is risk management, with a thought of personal precautionary principles. | |||
| *My "guerilla tactics" are the methods of the marginalized, but think about Jackson Pollock (you appear to have some artistic experience). The spatter lines (audit trails) and differing colors (layers of wp) combine to make a whole (over four and 3/4 years) if one has a "canvas". That combining foundation could be a spider that crawls Misplaced Pages (and Wikimedia), if you know some IT ("I've got a guy.") | |||
| *So from what hasn't been obliterated, due to its isolatable vulnerability; my works, such as "tons of diffs " could be made whole with automation with some human guidance. I don't know how Misplaced Pages insiders might respond to this idea. | |||
| *I am sorry to say your word of "the game is not rigged. Misplaced Pages is transparent, and neutral" has not been my feeling due to my experiences of being abused here. Of course I wouldn't still be here if I didn't hope against hope. My trust needs to be increased in the so-called "community", but how? | |||
| *Where would you go from here? ] (]) 03:33, 15 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::'''''"How can I be assured...:"''''' Be assured that there are lots of corporate nasties who edit Misplaced Pages to whitewash articles. At the moment, they may be outnumbered. When they begin to overwhelm Misplaced Pages and ruin the articles, then maybe the community will consider some sort of action. For now, be assured that there are legions of neutral editors. | |||
| ::'''''"I personally feel my future and quality-of-life is endangered...:"''''' I think that is paranoid. A Misplaced Pages editor is just not dangerous enough. Really, Glenn Greenwald and Richard D. Wolff are safe in their homes. Be brave. | |||
| ::'''''"My guerilla tactics are the methods of the marginalized...:"''''' Right, but guerilla tactics and Misplaced Pages don't mix. Plus, it is the corporate nasties who are at the moment marginalized at Misplaced Pages. With you as a legitimate editor, you could help keep it that way. Right now, you are being reverted by corporate nasties and legitimate editors alike. | |||
| ::'''''"So from what hasn't been obliterated...:"''''' Your "works" made whole? What do you want to do, publish a book that the whole world would read? | |||
| ::'''''"My trust needs to be increased...Where would you go from here...:"''''' See the community for what it is: partially untrustworthy. Work within it knowing that. You're smart. Work smart. This needs finesse and patience and higher thought. You can do better than years of brute force vs. brute force that ends in zeros. So, first handle the unblock thing. Then, get involved in the community in areas that help shape Misplaced Pages's future. There are lots of editors like you who also see the problem. Seek them out and discuss it. Work with others to help the broader community see the problems and seek support for some kind of policy changes. Think big. Maybe ''hot topic'' articles will need some sort of sockpuppet prevention measures. I don't know. ] (]) 23:44, 18 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::I see you unlinked Glenn Greenwald and Richard D. Wolff as "not clearly related". I cite them only as two of countless examples of people who bravely challenge the most powerful and dangerous forces on Earth, and are still standing. ] (]) 00:37, 19 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
| (edit conflict) | |||
| :::Thank you for continuing this discussion. What is your basis for stating '''''"it is the corporate nasties who are at the moment marginalized at Misplaced Pages."'''''? What is your evidence? How do you "know" this enough to be so blunt? I know you don't speak for the entire "community" and that you do not have my experiences. | |||
| :::'''''"... ruin the articles, then maybe the ... :"''''' sounds like you are only thinking of acts of commission, not acts of omission. The behaviors of these "deniers" are to delay, confuse, obscure, omit ... see wp article "Fear, uncertainty and doubt" for staters, and maybe read ''Merchants of Doubt'' (among others noted). Misplaced Pages's processes favor omission and gang-written articles are messy; attrition tactics are an effective deterrent to neutral volunteerism. The "deniers" appear to have already ] to its limits (over-the-top "ruin"-ing would be counterproductive to their agendas). | |||
| :::Why do you state '''''"A Misplaced Pages editor is ..."'''''? No contributor is <u>just</u> an editor, they are more. How many do you <u>really</u> know? Do you read German (I've only attempted a google translation)? See ]. Without authentic evidence, your subjective comments are just words. | |||
| :::'''''"Be brave."''''' You sound naïve. Courage is acting in spite of fear. | |||
| :::'''''"... as a legitimate editor ...:"''''' What is illegitimate about editing as an IP? | |||
| :::'''''"... and higher thought ...:"''''' What? That just seems like an attempt at an insult. | |||
| :::'''''"... handle the unblock ...:"''''' How is that done? Be assured the "deniers" are planning from these communications (and have other resources), as history has shown. How many times have you seen a situation similar to this succeed? If ever, name some please. It has been explicitly stated by involved Admins that I would be denied from registering a User Name on Misplaced Pages, but if I did it would be ended along with any future attempts. My observations have shown no "legitimate" justification must be shown. Mob-rule. Why would I give-up what little methods I have to contribute, for even less? Where is my equal protection from the corruption within "the community"? From what you have states so-far, "its processes (are) a thumb on its own scales of justice". See ]? | |||
| :::'''''"There are lots of editors like you who also see the problem. Seek them out and discuss it.:"''''' Who are these "editors" who "see the problem"? Name a dozen or more, please. It would be wonderful to have ] (stated with multiple meanings, see ). | |||
| :::Some more background, from 2012: ] and ], plus ] | |||
| :::] (]) 02:08, 19 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Au contraire. I assume good faith. The onus is on you to show that corporate nasties are not marginalized. A see that a tiny percentage of articles are being unfairly influenced. Most of Misplaced Pages's millions of articles are not. Providing a few diffs is not evidence that a large percentage of Misplaced Pages's millions of articles are being manipulated by corporate nasties. | |||
| ::::Of course I consider omission. We all know what passes for news these days. | |||
| ::::I only know editors by their edits, and those edits are here for all to see. | |||
| ::::I may be naive, but then you may be paranoid. But, I don't trust my judgement enough to determine, and neither should you. I'd rather trust the opinions of dozens of neutral observers. | |||
| ::::A legitimate editor is an IP or a registered user, not someone who is blocked. | |||
| ::::No insult intended. But really, brute force? Surely there is a better strategy to get what you want. You are fighting back symptoms. You need to get at the disease. Want to save the world from overfishing? Don't bother to protest. You have to change the system. | |||
| ::::To handle the block, inquire, don't assume. Then, reevaluate. | |||
| ::::If all of this is to convince me that power centers are attacking Misplaced Pages, don't bother. I know they are. If all of this is to justify your strategy, don't bother. I cannot condone it. | |||
| ::::If you saying the path of getting unblocked is not something you will pursue, then we don't need to continue this. My aim is to get you to chose a different path. In fact, I really want you to get unblocked and champion the cause. Why? Because I believe the powers that be will eventually win unless something is done, and I just don't think you can win by fighting as a rogue. Anyway, what I am hearing from you is that you've figured out that Misplaced Pages is one big rotten apple, and your only choice is to go rogue and counter it. And I don't think Misplaced Pages is one big rotten apple, and neither do you, or you would see any action as futile. But, we can both agree that there are plenty worms at work. So, what are your intentions? What do you plan to do? ] (]) 06:28, 19 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
| '''''' ] (]) 00:02, 25 May 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :I didn't "declare" anything. I was waiting for you to give me evidence of anything you've stated. It appears you have none, and you appear to have given-up on discussion. I haven't. | |||
| :My apologies for the overwrite on the REDIRECT. If you are "declaring this discussion closed" please revert this edit. I'll have an understanding of where you are coming from. ] (]) 00:44, 1 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
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