Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 09:31, 14 August 2006

Bosniaks (also spelled: Bosniacs; sometimes incorrectly refered to as Bosnian Muslims) are indigenous Slavic peoples of Bosnia. Up until the mid 19th century, the term Bosniak (natively: Bošnjaci) was used for all inhabitants of Bosnia regardles of faith.

In medieval Bosnia, Bosniaks were largely members of an indigenous Bosnian Church and were considered heretics by both the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches. As a result, some Bosniaks were forced to convert to Caholicism and Eastern Orthodox religions. During the Ottoman period (15th-19th century) mostly heretic Bosniaks in large numbers converted to Islam.

During the 19th century (Austro-Hungarian period), the Bosniaks of Catholic and Eastern Orthodox faiths acquired Croatian and Serbian national identites and came to be known as Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Serbs.

In terms of religion, today's Bosniaks are overhelmingly Sunni Muslims. Their mother tongue is Bosnian language, which is one of three official languages of modern day Bosnia-Herzegovina. Bosniaks are proud of their unique history, tradition, and European roots.

More info: CIA World FactBook

keep your cool

Bosniak, I have seen the mass graves, the exhumations. I have friends who are survivors. I myself had a rough time trying to maintain rationality having seen the horror perpetrated by cold-hearted politicians, by willing executioners overtaken by hate and malice, and by those who were told by their commanders either kill or be killed. But Bosniak, you have to keep your cool. It does feel like what you really want to do is go outside and scream at the top of your lungs "The Serbs are murderers!". That statement in and of itself is not accurate. Some Serbs fought against the ultranationalist Serbs. There are Serbs who lost their lives trying to defend multi-ethnic democracy both in Serbia and in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Some Serbs did everything they could to confront the Greater Serbia project. If some of the Serbs and some of the Croats had not joined the Bosnian Army defending a multi-ethic democratic Bosnia, there would be no Bosniaks left in Bosnia. There are moderate reasonable Serbs who are nationalists who would agree to move forward in a multi-ethnic democratic system while all crimes are looked at openly. There are Serbs today who are not at all nationalist who want nothing less than to have their nation look honestly at what they did. And if we are going to take a deeper look at what generates these conflicts, we need to look at corruption and how it eats away at civil society and allows cold-hearted power-grabbing people to manipulate Balkan history and foster genocidal conflict. And without allowing the "all sides equal" obfuscation, we must look at everything everyone did both good and bad.

This is going to take generations, but we must find common ground with reasonable people so that the killing does not happen again.

Anyone who wants to put his energy into rehabilitating Lewis MacKenzie is obviously a problem, but even Osli can help improve the article. I'm sorry but he is correct that using your blog as a source is not OK. We need to put in the time finding primary source material.

In the free exchange of ideas put forth by honest people, the truth will emerge.

Bosniak, stick with it. Keep your cool. Do not quit. Fairview360 16:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

It is becoming clearer to me that Osli73 is sneaky, but still his challenges are indicative of others like him and good practice for refuting revisionist and underhanded tactics. Fairview360 19:54, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Osli may need to be tolerated to a certain extent, but ever since he tried to erase the names of those killed or missing and sneak it by as a minor edit, I would prefer that he was banned. That maneuver shows his true colors. Fairview360 14:44, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Minor Edits

Remember to mark your edits as minor only when they genuinely are (see Misplaced Pages:Minor edit). "The rule of thumb is that an edit of a page that is spelling corrections, formatting, and minor rearranging of text should be flagged as a 'minor edit'." Tuspm 01:18, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Bosniak's Reply:

Okay, I will do that in the future.

References

Hi Bosniak,

I just noticed your edit summary at The Holocaust. For this article you can make the references appear in the appropriate section by surrounding them with <ref></ref> tags. For example, if I wanted to cite www.cnn.com, I would type <ref></ref>. For more information see WP:Footnotes

GabrielF 01:23, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Bosniak's Reply

Thank you Gabriel, I finally did it, take a look:

http://en.wikipedia.org/The_Holocaust

Cheers!

Good work! Happy to help out. GabrielF 01:30, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello

I'm Adrien and new to this encyclopedia, I wondered if we could cooperate on the articles about Bosnia and Bosniaks. I would appreciate it.

And you could also copy my Bosnian history part onto your user page, if you wish. You can read it at my page.

Selam Bosoni

Bosniak's reply

Of course we can cooperate Adrien. You can also visit my blog http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com and in the comments leave me your email address so I can contact you. Of course, I will not publish your comment, so your email will stay private. Please keep an eye on Misplaced Pages's Srebrenica Massacre article.

Cheers!

external links spam

Please stop spamming Misplaced Pages articles with repetitive and tangential external links. --Joy 02:10, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Bosniak's reply

They are not spam, all three links (Srebrenica Genocide, plus two links of US Government's reward for capture of Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic) are directly *relevant* to the topics in question, you idiot.

No, they are not directly relevant, they are tangentially relevant. Some semi-random blog about the Srebrenica massacre, and articles about rewards for war crime indictees, they simply shouldn't be plastered all over the place, it's insane. Imagine if we did it like that for everything else - post all links to world maps in all geography articles? --Joy 11:13, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Adrien here

Hello Bosniak, I left you a comment as suggested. I loved your blog, great work! Bosoni

Bosniak Reply

For Joy(shalot): $5 million reward is being offered by the U.S. government for the capture of Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic. I don't want to argue with you.

For Adrien: Hi friend, I got your email and I replied to it. But, and this is very important, I cancelled my internet service provider today and currently I am in process of switching to another one; new connection should be established in few days. Currently, I am sitting on my balcony overlooking downtown Vancouver and use free (*open*) wireless connection! It's pretty fast though. I will add your email to my MSN contact list, so I can catch you online. Cheers!

Update: Also my previous email is not working, because of internet service change - but I added you to my MSN; I'll give you my other email when I catch you online. Cheers again!

Bosoni/Adrien here, Hello

It's good that you told me about the ISP-change, because I sent you a reply to your last e-mail but the delivery failed, I see why now. I'll send my reply later to your new e-mail adress then =) (and I added you to my msn list) Good luck with everything, cheers Bosoni

Srebrenica

Thanks for returning the information in Srebrenica article. Unfortunately I don't have time to frequently proof read the entire article. I generally rely on users who are familiar with the subject to keep tabs on this article so that I don't have to be in charge of reading it every day. Also it would be of great help when you make additions to this article to carefully state the source simply to avoid further attacks on the article that waste time for all of us. What some may consider controversial statements such as the statement in your last addition, while it may be completely true, when left unsourced it weakens the credibility of the article and makes it prone to attacks. It does not mean the statement does not belong there but we just need to know where it came from and the fact supporting it. For example this paragraph

"Seven more have been recently put on trial. One person, Nikola Jorgic was convicted of Bosnian Genocide."

Will probably need a proper source and I am sure you can easily find it through Google or elsewhere.--Dado 20:41, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

In fact, now that I look at it this statement better fits article Bosnian genocide than Srebrenica massacre since activity of Nikola Jorgic pertains to other regions in BiH. I was unaware of this case. Thanks for the info.

Update on situation

Helo friend, I haven't heard anything from you for some time. What's new and how are you? Is your new internet connection and e-mail adress yet established? I should also tell you that I'm not a "diligent" user of MSN messenger, perhaps we could instead decide a specific occasion to give me the e-mail adress via MSN? (I also made my first edits with this account yesterday, on the Bosnian language article) Bye, Bosoni

Bosniak's Reply

Yes Bosoni! Hi! Few days ago, I sent you my new email address and it bounced! I will re-send it again! Hope it doesn't bounce. Cheers! Check your email.--Bosniak 03:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi! I checked it earlier today and replied, greetings. Bosoni

Bosniak's Reply to Dado

Hi Dado, you have my respect friend, as you are one of few dedicated Srebrenica massacre editors. I am not expecting you to be the only one monitoring and protecting the article, I encourage other Bosniaks and other reasonable people to do the same. Srebrenica massacre article must be protected against vandalism. Maybe we could protect the article in a way that only registered users can edit it?

Zasto si vratio Srebrenicki clanak na Fairview360-ovu verziju u kojem nije nista bitno promijenio osim sto je ostavio otvorena vrata za srpske vandale koji su jedva docekali da imaju razlog za razvaljivanje clanka? Neko je vec spomenuo da bi ovaj clanak trebao da lici na clanak, a ne na ustogljenu sudsku presudu, radi toga se radi parafraziranje dijelova presude, a ne identicno kopiranje, zbog cega cijeli clanak moze da propadne. Zamolio bih te da ne vracas vise na Fairview360-ovu, samo ce nam donijeti belaj. Jesil ti svjestan koliko je truda trebalo da se napravi clanak bez POV taga?! Ovaj clanak je zapocet prije godinu dana, i sada zbog nekih preemotivnih postupaka pojedinaca, a koji nista bitno ne mijenjaju treba da propadne? Nemojte se igrati! --Emir Arven 19:40, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Replika Emiru

Dobro Emire. Ali nemozemo dozvoliti da Osli razvaljuje clanak i mijenja cinjenicne izvore sa diskreditovanim srbijanskim izvorima. Slazes li se? --Bosniak 19:43, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Dao sam mu moj odgovor na stranici za diskusiju o Srebrenickom genocidu. Bitno je da su svi izvori pobrojani u clanku, koji su relevantni. To ce diskreditovati svaki propagandisticki pokusaj. Verziju koju sam ostavio je sasvim uredu, a poenta je da ne stvori prostora za vandale koji ce sitnice iskoristiti za stavljanje POV taga. --Emir Arven 19:50, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Srebrenica massacre

For your information, only administrators can protect pages. Adding {{sprotect}} and similar templates does not serve to protect a page. I have removed the template from that page, but you may list it on WP:RFPP if you think it should be protected. Stifle (talk) 23:13, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

No personal attacks

Personal attacks on other users are unacceptable - see WP:NPA. I've blocked you for 24 hours for the attack you made against User:Osli73 on Talk:Srebrenica massacre (). Please refrain from making such attacks in the future. -- ChrisO 18:55, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Endorse this, that kind of behaviour on such controversial articles causes far more problems than it solves. Calm down, read our policies on no personal attacks and civility then come back. - FrancisTyers · 19:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Srebrenica Genocide Blog

Bosniak, Are you (one of) the editor(s) of the Srebrenica Genocide blog? Just to set the record straight. Osli73 22:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Reply to Osli

That is none of your business. Unless you stop poisoning Srebrenica massacre article with moral relativism and already discredited Serbian sources, me and you cannot talk. When you stop your advertisements of discredited Serbian opinions, I will find time to speak to you again. Remember: Srebrenica article is not about Serbs or Serbian claims/politics - it's about 8,000+ victims of Genocide that was committed by Serb forces. Can you comprehed this statement? I am sure you can, but you don't want to. --Bosniak 06:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Bosniak, Going through your personal page I found this statement by you on you user page confirming that you, indeed, are the editor of the Srebrenica Genocide blog. In light of this I don't think it is a very good idea that you, as an editor, use your own website as a source/reference for the Misplaced Pages Srebrenica massacre article. It is then better to link directly to the original document. Cheers Osli73 07:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Mackenzie smear

That line on Lewis Mackenzie in Srebrenica massacre should not be included. It's sourced to a personal website (which we can't use, per WP:RS). It's a pure ad hominem clearly intended to impeach his credibility - it doesn't add anything to the article. Please do not restore it again. -- ChrisO 23:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I realize perfectly well. :-) The policy is clear: content hosted on a personal website may not be used, other than in a few special cases outlined in WP:RS (none of which apply in this instance). We don't know that the news article reproduced on that page is reprinted accurately, or even that it was published at all (since it doesn't appear to be on the originating news agency's website). As it happens, this very issue has been discussed recently among editors of WP:RS. Such "convenience links" are considered inadmissible if the hosting website is not a reliable source.

The paper you cited at http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/femres.htm certainly does include this news article as a reference, but it makes no reference to the Mackenzie allegations and because of the way the article is cited, we actually don't know what the citation refers to. If the paper quoted the allegations then we might consider it a reliable source for those allegations, but it doesn't. The bottom line is that the allegations can't be reliably cited and so can't be included. -- ChrisO 02:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi ChrisO

I don't understand what you are trying to say. The article is cited to:

COPYRIGHT PACIFIC NEWS SERVICE 450 Mission Street, Room 506 San Francisco, CA 94105 415-243-4364 Date: 06/04/1993

The fact that someone posted it on geocities has nothing to do with the credibility of the article; this is original article with full copyright notice. It's over 13 years old and was published when internet was only barely beginning to be used.

What's the problem? Is the truth problem again? I would not be surprised if you banned me and all your opponents from wikipedia. Now, I see, we are not even allowed to use this article as a source, but our opponents are allowed to use Lewis Mackanzie's genocide denials as a source ?

Don't you see double standard here? Bosniak 04:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey

I read through the Bosnian war article recently and found it horrible, it completly neglects the overwhelming majority of serb crimes. It follows up an indirect statement that all three sides were equally guilty, we all know the case isn't like that. It would be like stating that all sides in world war two were equally guilty, ludacris! Please look over the article =) Regards! (P.S, I haven't had the time for mails and msn yet) Bosoni

Consensus

You are supposed to work with the editors of Srebrenica massacre to come to a consensus. You, or the Bosniaks in general, do not own the article. Comments like

• "rv. to Bosniak: other guys, come from time to time to this page and revert to Bosniak, protect article from Osli73, bye..." (summary)
• "I will keep reverting and reverting" (edit summary)
• "Dado and other Bosniak editors - please re-read the whole article and do appropriate adjustments just in case vandals inserted something that we have not noticed lately." (edit summary)

are not acceptable. Please play by Misplaced Pages's rules. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 04:36, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Response to Jitse

You guys are also not owners of wikipedia. Osli73 will not have it his way, that I can promise. With respect to you Jitse, I have no beef with you man.

I have opposing views - and if anyone is afraid of my opinion, which is heavily based on International Tribunal's rullings, then it's their problem (not mine).

Hope you understand. I will not allow Osli73 to have it his way. That's the bottom line. This is 💕 and anyone can edit it, including me. Bosniak 06:58, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Srebrenica massacre

Bosniak, I'd ask you to be a little more careful when revertying Osli's changes on the Srebrenica massacre article. I made some big improvements to the "Serb casualties" section that you completely ignored whenyou reverted. Live Forever 09:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)