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Iwane Matsui

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result pending

The recent failed FA review found significant sourcing problems with the article. In at least one case a source was cited as saying the opposite of what it said ("ultranationalist" became "pan-Asianist") and the Japanese-speaking users largely agreed that it looked like most of the article was sourced to revisionist works by Japanese right-wing ideologues rather than scholars. The original GA reviewer admitted they hadn't checked any of the sources. FAs need to be properly-sourced, but this applies just as much to GAs; we can't say the article contains only enough bad sourcing not to be promoted to FA, but for a GA these sourcing problems are acceptable. Given what came to light about the article's sourcing later, I think a thorough source-check will be needed if this article is to remain on the GA list. The burden is of course on the party seeking to promote the article to GA status to demonstrate that the article is well-sourced, verifiable and NPOV. I was planning on doing such a source-check (hence my not posting this immediately after the FA review failed), but external factors prevented me from doing so and look set to continue doing so. I'll leave this for the community to discuss. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:38, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Keep - I don't believe that any sourcing problems were found. You were asked to provide "anything substantial" indicating that the sources were unreliable, but you still haven't provided any such evidence. You were told "If they're unacceptably biased, prove it; the burden is indeed on you", but again you never responded. As Dank pointed out, your argument was basically "there must be a source somewhere that contradicts these sources", which as he noted was not even a valid reason to oppose featured article promotion. Only two full-length biographies of Iwane Matsui have been written and I consulted both of them for use in this article. I know that all the citations are accurately represented, and naturally I can provide a specific spot check upon request to any particular citation. However, just saying that you suspect that the article needs a source-check, without specifying which citations could possibly be wrong, is not useful and not a valid reason for a good article review.CurtisNaito (talk) 16:31, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

@CurtisNaito: I just saw this by chance while leaving a message for TH1980. You left a notification that was not only not in its own section, but almost looks like part of an older notification. The notification itself looks a lot like a case of canvassing. On top of that, after just reading what's been posted here and having only a few details of this dispute, I see a striking similarity to the History of Japan dispute: an article failed an assessment due to bad sourcing and yet you deny it ever had sourcing problems. Are you serious? This can't be a coincidence. I'm going to read the FA assessment, then I'll check the sources and the article in general. I'll post my !vote after that. Oh and I'll be sure to bring in someone uninvolved in these disputes to help, probably from the 3O or DR noticeboard. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 09:34, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Hijiri notified a number of people involved in the featured article review, but it was a fairly arbitrary list. It made more sense to notify all those involved in the featured article review. Therefore, I notified all individuals who had not already been notified. At any rate, I don't believe the last good article review failed due to bad sourcing. If there are specific problems with sourcing, they should be identified, but the opening statement here was based on the same vague suspicions which were already presented and refuted during the initial good article review. As it stands, no evidence has been put forward of sourcing problems, and there doesn't appear to be any reason to reassess the article, let alone delist it.CurtisNaito (talk) 00:15, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

It was not arbitrary. I notified the previous GA nominator, the previous GA reviewer, the closer on the FA review (which was a key part of my GAR rationale), the user who had done a "very thorough copy edit" (TH1980's wording), two relevant WikiProjects, and one other user who had provided noteworthy commentary on the article that I had not touched on in my above GAR rationale, but which might be worth taking into account as well. You, on the other hand, "notified" one user whose involvement in the FA review was part of an ongoing hounding campaign against me (ArbCom is close to imposing an IBAN), and two other users whose involvement in the FA review was peripheral at best but who seemed to kinda-sorta oppose my view on the matter.

In keeping with this, your first comment here was completely ad hominem, without even the slightest attempt to address the problems with the article. Please remain focused on article content, and whether or not this article still meets (or ever met) the GA criterion that it be "verifiable" and containing "no original research". (And also that it be neutrally-worded as well -- the above-mentioned concern I'm not really qualified to address.)

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:52, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

All the users on the featured article review provided commentary. There was no reason for you to only notify those who provided commentary which you thought was "noteworthy". I notified all remaining commentators in a neutral manner, not selectively as was done before. As I said, other users keep telling you that "the burden is indeed on you" to provide evidence that there are sourcing problems. The article passed good article review because you provided no evidence. If you find evidence, the reassessment might have merit, but so far you haven't provided any.CurtisNaito (talk) 04:00, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm not going down this rabbit hole again. Suffice to say the above comment completely misses my point that I didn't want to canvas (annoy) every user who provided a driveby comment -- I notified those users whom WP:GAR requires me to notify, and one other user who had made what looked like a valid comment on an area I am not qualified to comment on. CurtisNaito specifically notified several users who had not commented on sourcing concerns but thought the article's prose looked good, and one user with a history of harassing me. This will be my last direct reply here. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:07, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

I notified all remaining users who commented on the featured article review. You notified a selective list, including users who only provided brief commentary and who never commented on souring at all. Either all or none of the commentators should have been notified, not just an arbitrary list of one user's preferred commentators.CurtisNaito (talk) 04:13, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I don't believe the last good article review failed due to bad sourcing This is beside the point -- the last good article review didn't fail -- it passed in spite of the bad sourcing. We are here to rectify that, either by doing a thorough source-check and fixing the article so it meets the GA criteria, or delisting it. If what was meant was "I don't believe the last featured article review failed due to bad sourcing", then that is blatant IDHT -- the coordinator specifically said "This seems to have more or less ground to a halt on the issue of sourcing". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:07, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

I have verified all the sources myself, so naturally I can spot check any of them. It's strange that you would accuse me of IDHT when so many other users have asked you to provide evidence for your assertions and yet you just ignore them. You yourself have repeatedly acknowledged that you have no access to the main sources used in the article and have never read them. Though it's unclear why you object to sources you have never read, even so I can spot check and provide relevant quotes from any specific source which you think needs to be spot checked. However, just saying that the whole article needs to be checked is not useful, because I've already done that. If you tell me which specific citation you need quotes from, then I can provide them.CurtisNaito (talk) 04:13, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Keep - There's nothing substantive in this reassessment. We will just be wasting our time.TH1980 (talk) 17:53, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Any further commenters and/or closers should consider this and this before taking the above vote! into account. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:07, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

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