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Wrong way round?

On the page, the Prime Minister Ehud Olmert inaccurately is above the President Moshe Katsav. I thought you put the head of state first, then the head of government. Can someone please sort it out? I can't because of this semi-protection (I'm a new Wikipedian). Thanks RJL 20:14, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

It was originally the way you say, then changed, citing the fact that the PM holds the power. However, that doesn't seem to be a relevant argument, as the head of state is the first mentioned in all the articles I looked at, such as Germany, United Kingdom, and India, all of them countries where actual power is wielded by the PM, not the president/monarch. Thus, I'm changing it back. okedem 20:23, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

See my comment above (section 23.1 in the table of contents), from a couple of days ago, after this change was made. I agree, the president should be listed above the PM. It is a matter of "protocol", not actual power. 6SJ7 20:39, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Head of State should go first. This shouldn't even be an issue. john k 22:16, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV Tag for Human Rights

Editors on this page have consistently deleted a vague listing noting a few major organizations that criticize human rights in Israel. As it stands now, there is no indication there is any criticism whatsoever. This is not a representation of the reality of the situation, and represents a severe bias. Therefore the article does not have neutrality. I suggest we work on a way to address this fairly together, so that a handful will stop hurting the article by deleting anything they see as criticism. Sarastro777 04:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

There is a nice link to the main article on Human rights in Israel just after the heading, and there is plenty of fodder for those who wish to find fault with the state of Israel in that article :) So, what exactly is your gripe, if I may ask? Thanks. -- Avi 04:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Please stop the personal attacks. "for those who wish to find fault with the State of Israel" -- we've been over this. Any "fault" is from the attributed Human Rights Groups, not the personal view of the editor. You need to work on not taking documentation of human rights issues as an individual assault from the editors working on such articles in good faith.

Humus Sapien's edit note: replaced Sarastro's cherrypicking of irrelevant groups with a variety of relevant ones, mention freedom of press within Israel)

the "irrelevant groups" he deleted were:

• Human Rights Watch
• Amnesty International
• The United Nations General Assembly
• The International Court of Justice
• Association for Human Rights in Israel

To say these groups are irrelevant is so funny it is hard to believe he actually expects anyone to take him credibly. Each group was followed with a specific reference to insure verifiability.

The "Freedom of the Press" is already in the main article. This out of context and isolated mention is inviting a lengthy examination of exceptions, which are already well documented. I don't see why it is helpful to go down this road. Your very smug response seems to indicate that you accept a bias issue in the section but are comfortable with it because you think the HR article contains "plenty of fodder." That viewpoint is not productive.

Sarastro777 05:28, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Here is my edit: . Note how I added a variety of relevant links of the groups highly critical of Israeli govt. policies, rather than Sarastro's cherrypicked selection of reports. Certain orgs have controversial relations with Israel (covered elsewhere: follow links), and issues of the conflict are also covered elsewhere. To say that freedom of speech does not belong to human rights section is ridiculous. Your constant efforts to besmirch Israel are duly noted. ←Humus sapiens 06:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Please see Misplaced Pages:Assume Good Faith & Misplaced Pages:No Personal Attacks Sarastro777 14:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Humus please refrain from personal attacks. I do not see any besmirching by any party other than yourself. Can we please focus on the improvement of this article and not attacking Sarastro777.--Oiboy77 16:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Said the thrice-blocked vandal. Schrodingers Mongoose 03:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The section on Human Rights in Israel is a joke, and censors any criticicism of the state of Israel by human rights groups. It even contradicts the main article on the subject, which includes statements giving a fair assessment.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.40.24.189 (talk • contribs) 10:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Forcing civilians to leave their homes/country

Is considered terrorism. I added an NPOV-tag until this issue is resolved. --Daniel575 20:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

terrorism

1. The deliberate commission of an act of violence to create an emotional response from the victim in the furtherance of a political or social agenda.
2. Violence against civilians to achieve military or political objectives.
3. A psychological strategy of war for gaining political or religious ends by deliberately creating a climate of fear among the popuation of a state.

ANY QUESTIONS? --TheYmode 21:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Not sure if someone is trying to argue the IDF are terrorists for civilian deaths in Lebanon or if it is Hezbollah for the rockets. In either case, the definitions above hinge on the internal motive of the perpetrator. That is almost always hard to 'verify' and makes the label "terrorist" problematic and frequently based on the POV of the person using the word. 64.186.246.122 21:47, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you that the motive is important. There is no need to read their mind to verify it, just listen to what they say to learn there intent (the quote in the article). BTW the citation in the article is broken I think, here 2 with the same quote that works, I'll add them to the article later (or if someone want to add them feel free) --TheYmode 22:17, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

So... I'm not sure I understand what's wrong with a factually accurate and less loaded term like "forcing civilians to leave" or "making civilians leave"? Could TheYmode or Daniel575 explain? Thanks. --Birdmessenger 21:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

That makes it sound like there was no crime. It is a completely warped version of what happened. I do not know how else to explain this to anyone who does not understand. --Daniel575 22:15, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The term Terrorism IS factually and accurate in this case, its as simple as that. And calling it something else is POV. --TheYmode 22:17, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Correct. --Daniel575 22:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

For better or worse, we are all obligated to justify our edits, even if they make common sense to you. And I appreciate your efforts to do so (sincerely).

I disagree that describing the situation as Hezbollah as trying to "force" Israelis to leave is "completely warped". Given that we provide a direct quote, why can't the reader be trusted to make up his or her own mind about the criminal nature of Hezbollah's intentions? --Birdmessenger 22:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

So I guess we should remove the entire characterization "He further outlined his organization's strategy of terrorizing Israeli civilians into leaving their country", especially since the reference attached to it is a dead link. We don't really need a characterization one way or another; "We are going to make Israel not safe for Israelis" is sufficiently vile (or, if you prefer, inspiring) that anyone can figure it out on their own. --jpgordon 23:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I've come up with a description which is accurate, but which doesn't use the contentious word "terrorising". Jayjg 16:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Is somebody here actually trying to say that Israel is a terrorist state? No way this should be allowed. Ackoz 21:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• Ah, no, I don't think anyone's saying that right here. Actually, it was a question of how to characterize a specific statement by a Hezbollah leader. --jpgordon 00:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Haim Ramon Quote

This should be in the portion as much as the quote from the Hossein Safiadeen. Both are notable; unless of course you think it's NPOV to put in the quote that he said about justifying the killing of women and children and calling them terrorist as much as the Arab stating "They will not make Israel safe for Israelis."Volksgeist 13:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Edits by someone who states "Just because you are a Jewish" in an edit summary and accuses them of dual loyalty on their talk page will never, ever stay on this article. Jayjg 17:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

So do you have a personal problem or can you respond to the question? Volksgeist 18:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I've responded. Now, why don't you go defend apartheid or Adolf Hitler, or go rant about The Jews in the media and how the media is unfair to "white people", or go on about the kind of power Jews have over the US, or rant about how the "Jews of the world" are shoving "diversity" and "acceptance" down the throat of European peoples? Jayjg 18:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

For someone with a German name translating roughly as "the people's ghost" I am not surprised. I already noticed his weird username immediately when he had just registered. --Daniel575 18:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, "volksgeist" was some mystical notion about "the people's spirit", something the Nazis thought the "Aryan race" had an abundance of. Jayjg 18:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

So, Jayjg, is your problem that the quote is accurate or that you simply have a personal problem with me? Volksgeist 18:25, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Our problem is with someone who has on multiple occasions expressed clear antisemitic thought. --Daniel575 18:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Does that not mean Mr Ramon did not state the quote at an Israel Security Cabinet meeting as Israel was bombing civilian targets in Lebanon? Volksgeist 19:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Is there a policy that supports that, or is this just your POV? You can't just decide to disregard and attack a contributor because you have some personal animus against them. There are plenty of Editors on here who express clearly biased thoughts in other realms. I don't see any outcry against them, nor should there be as everyone's input counts. You can disagree with someone politically and still Misplaced Pages:Assume Good Faith. I don't see that happening... very bad example from an Admin. Sarastro777 18:40, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Sarastro, I would like you to check out this and the two things linked to there (July 1947 and November 1947). Also read this and also read this. That is my position. It is quite hilarious of you to accuse me of having a pro-Israel POV. If you check my talk page, you will see that Zionists threaten me and call me a poison, a dog, and other things. Your accusations of me being pro-Israel are plain hilarious. --Daniel575 18:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

On a different board I referred to people "here" (Misplaced Pages) having a Pro-Israel POV. You took this as a personal reference, which it was not. Your assumption that Daniel575 = "here" is equally hillarious :-) Sarastro777 22:58, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Sarastro777, I'm not sure what "political disgreement" you are referring to; are you referring to Volksgeist's beliefs that apartheid was wonderful, Hitler was great, the British and French started World War II, the Jews are forcing race-mixing on Europeans and controlling the United States? If so, I happen to disagree with that, but I don't view those as necessarily political positions. Jayjg 18:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Please cite something that is an example of how I think "Hitler was Great" or that the "British and French started World War II." You can see my contributions to articles and none of them are biased. Furthermore, this quote was in the article for at least a week before someone started throwing in NPOV and changed a lot of things (which I rewrote and still stand). The quote is in numerous sources and belongs here. You are removing it simply on the fact you do not like my opinions. Furthermore, from your history, you seem to have a pro-Israeli viewpoint, is that why are you removing the quote? Because you certainly don't want to value free speech if you feel on removing a citable quotation because you do not belief with the person who added it. Volksgeist 19:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

"I don't get why Germany is blamed for the start of WW2 when the Soviets did the same. I would argue that France and the UK did by declaring war on Germany". Now why don't you go and find a citation for your claim that the Uruguayan birth rate is low because of "the racial characteristics of the nation" Jayjg 19:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

You still have not answered me. Did the Haim Ramon not state the quote (and it is an acceptable contribution to the article) or are you simply removing it on your own personal bias of a wikipedia user? Volksgeist 19:49, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I would like to add this quote was in the article for a two weeks before someone decided to delete it. That's the RV. Volksgeist 19:51, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

And that's really the issue in this discussion, not what editors disagree with in entirely different articles. That's a distraction tactic from the point at hand. Sarastro777 19:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

You asked me for a quote showing your claim that the British and French started WWII. I provided it. Jayjg 19:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think this quote should not be included in the article, because, veritable or not, it does not reflect the official standpoint of Israel in its conflict with Lebanon. The Israeli Defense Army's aim was all along to destroy Hezbollah's launching posts and eliminate its members. Unlike Hezbollah, the IDF warned the civilians in the areas it was about to bomb by means of leaflets dropped from aircrafts. The fact that many civilians didn't leave the attacked areas, for various reasons, and subsequently killed is another issue, and the death of civilians was unintentional. Therefore, using Ramon's slip of the tongue as a representation of Israel's standpoint puts it out of context. It is very curious indeed, Volksgeist, that you chose to quote this out of all the things said by Israel's political representatives, a quote which totally condratics the Israeli government's perception --Lividore 22:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

First, let's address your totally misconstrued and biased summary of leafletting. Civilians that were "fleeing" per leaflet instructions were blown up by the IDF using guided missiles, including at least one incident of an ambulance. Later Israel banned all vehicles South of the Litani river and targeted any violators. The routes of evacuation such as bridges were blown up along with other infrastructure preventing any civilians from fleeing. The fact that Israel dropped some leaflets made no effective difference to the civilians. You insinuate they stayed in a dangerous warzone completely by their own volition, which is one the largest stretches of imagination I have yet read on this "Encylopedia" Unlike the state of the art guided bombs and missiles given to Israel by the U.S., which are precise... Hezbollah had 40 year old Soviet missiles which basically point and shoot without any pinpoint accuracy. Even if we discount this, they additionally do not have an airforce like Israel, again a la the United States. So no mechanism to drop propaganda on the soil of sovreign foreign countries nor any way to know precisely where the missiles would land... so no area to leaflet even if they had the means and the desire.

But as you said, that is another issue. Why would it be curious to quote a State Official that said ""Everyone in southern Lebanon is a terrorist and is connected to Hezbollah." ] That's an extremely belligerant and controversial statement. It's notable at the very least because of his positions as Minister of Justice and Minister of Internal Affairs, not to mention because of the content. Your position is nothing can be cited unless it is publicly passed by the Knesset as an official policy? I'm sorry, but that position is not supported by any Misplaced Pages guidelines. Sarastro777 22:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Then, Sarastro, we are also going to include some of this: "If they go from Sheba'a, we will not stop fighting them. Our goal is to liberate the 1948 borders of Palestine... can go back to Germany or wherever they came from.” (Hassan Ezzedin, Hezbollah spokesman) And this: Secretary-General Nasrallah’s official stance is that “Israel is an illegal usurper entity, which is based on falsehood, massacres, and illusions, and there is no chance for its survival.” And this: "There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel." Next we also have this one: Nasrallah said "I am against any reconciliation with Israel. I do not even recognize the presence of a state that is called "Israel." I consider its presence both unjust and unlawful. That is why if Lebanon concludes a peace agreement with Israel and brings that accord to the Parliament our deputies will reject it; Hezbollah refuses any conciliation with Israel in principle." So if you insist on including out-of-context quotes by Israeli politicians, we are also going to include these. Feel free to put Haim Ramon's quote back. But if you place it back, be aware that these quotes are going to be placed next to it. --Daniel575 | (talk) 22:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It sounds like you are threatening retaliatory vandalism because you disagree with what is clearly a relevant quote. Is it supposed to punish me personally that you say you are going to put a quote from Nasrallah? I am really confused by what you are trying to prove here other than you have a very strong bias. Sarastro777 23:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

So what it looks like is the reason certain people do not want the quote in is because of a personal bias towards myself. Furthermore, it seems the people complaining about it also seem to be ones who are members of Jewish groups on Misplaced Pages. Is because the quote displays Israel in a negative light is somehow not appropriate? Volksgeist 00:22, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• Jew-haters get short shrift on Misplaced Pages. Get used to it. --jpgordon 00:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

So, I guess, NPOV does matter if the original article has something to do with Judaism or Israel? Is the NPOV only for article not relating to the aforementioned? Volksgeist 01:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

My $0.02....first and foremost, in this case I think Volksgeist's credibility is irrelevant. The fact is that the quote in question is validated in major media (though I suspect it lost something in the translation) and I think we would need more factual grounds to keep it out. My recommendation would be to include it in a fashion that recognizes its context...a cabinet meeting discussion where the speaker's views were not adopted as the majority. A suggested inclusion: "Haim Ramon, the Israeli justice minister, fueled controversy and opposition to Israeli military actions when he said that 'Everyon in Lebanon etc etc.' The official Israeli position, however, remained one of attacking specific Hezbollah targets, some of which were in civilian areas." Schrodingers Mongoose 03:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I've rewrote the included quote and placed it inline with the comments from Hezbollah (this should appease both parties). They seem to go in par with each other. I've realized that when it comes to articles relating to Israel and Judaism, Misplaced Pages is hardly a place for a NPOV as articles will be reverted and Misplaced Pages administrator members of the "Judaism project" on Misplaced Pages will swoop in lock/delete/ban/whatever. Volksgeist 13:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Talk about WP:AGF -- Avi 13:47, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Volksgeist, you did not rewrite anything. You placed it back exactly as it was. The rest of what you are talking about is a big hallucination. As I said before, I am a virulent anti-Zionist who thinks Zionism is the biggest evil in the world. Zionism defiles the entire world with its impurity, Zionism causes wars, bloodshed and tragedies. The cursed Zionists, may their names be wiped out, such as Theodor Herzl, were atheist criminals, dirty traitors to the Jewish people. I do not want Israel to remain in existence, it should be dismantled as soon as this is practically feasible and replaced by a UN government. This is what those rabbis whom I consider to be the biggest Jewish leaders ever have determined. It is just laughable of you to accuse me of having a pro-Zionist POV. --Daniel575 | (talk) 14:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I accused you of nothing. This is getting ridiculous, the quote was in the article for weeks and suddenly everyone that is part of the "Judasim project" here on Misplaced Pages keeps deleting the quote. It's verifable and should be included in the article, I have yet to hear a reason why it is not except by some idiot's personal bias. As I stated eariler it's quite obvious that anything having to do with Jews and Israel here is kept on a tight leash if it portrays them in anything that may be considered negative. Volksgeist 14:31, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Not wanting input from Jew-haters into Jewish-related articles is hardly "some idiot's personal bias". Since you've expressed your position regarding Jews so clearly, it should hardly be a surprise that your contributions are looked at with skepticism and disgust. --jpgordon 14:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be a problem that the article is virtually controlled by an iron curtain, all of users of which are part of some sort Judiasm project on Misplaced Pages. Seems like a conflict of interest as well. I guess that's how "the tribe" operates, independent of the nation stupid enough to take them in. Soon they will find themselves destitute and finaically ruined as Spain was by "the tribe." Volksgeist 18:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Volksgeist, you did. And you're doing it again. How many times do we have to repeat that this quote is a misrepresentation? It was one minister's opinion. It is not and was not and has never been the official opinion of the Israeli government. The way it was written and the way you want to put it back makes it sounds as if it is. It is not. That is a misrepresentation of the facts. Yes, Ramon said that. And the other cabinet members do not agree. It is not Israel's official policy. If you clarify that, it would change things. --Daniel575 | (talk) 14:47, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Israel's Military

How does Israel's Air force and Army compare with Canada's? Which one is better, which one is better funded? Israel does not have a Navy right? Jamesino 18:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Israel has a navy, that's what was blockading the ports of Lebanon. Jayjg 18:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The Israeli navy is not a separate part of the military, I believe. You have only the IDF - Israel Defense Forces - and the IAF - Israel Air Force. The navy is part of the Army, formally. I believe it is the same way in China. Don't take this to court, I'm not sure of it. --Daniel575 18:18, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

No, no, no. There are three seperate arms of the Israeli military - army, air force and navy. The IAF is an integral part of the IDF (the whole military). okedem 21:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

How does Isreal's overall military power compare with Canada's? Jamesino 21:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't, because while Israel has and is allowed to have nukes, Canada has no nukes. What's the point having a weapon that you can't use? "you can use nukes" lol use it and see what happens. This is 2006 86.138.21.180 21:42, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Why are you discussing Canadian military? Its totally irrelevant to this topic. What you should be discussing is why the US will "allow" Israel to have nuclear war heads and are so against the Iran even developing nuclear energy.

Hi Jamesino...there is no comparison between the Israeli and Canadian militaries. Israel's battle-hardened armed forces are among the best trained and best supplied in the world. Canada's military, by contrast, lacks the strength and combat capability of many nations with less than 10% of its wealth and resources. Even without the nuclear issue, Israel is still militarily worlds ahead of Canada. Factor in Israel's nuclear weapons capabilities and the comparison becomes even more ludircously lopsided. Put another way, Israel's armed forces are certainly among the 10 most formidable in the world. Canada's would likely not be in the top 50 by most standards. Hope this gives you some idea. Schrodingers Mongoose 03:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Mongoose.....I dont care to compare Canada/Israeli armies....but ake away the $5 billion in arms the US supplies Israel every year and we will see how big there army really is.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.59.106.164 (talk • contribs) 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Last I checked, it was around $3B, of which something like 2-2.5 comes back to the US and supports the US economy, but I could be misremembering. -- Avi 14:42, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

2006 conflict section

Firstly, it should not be its own sub-section, any more than the Yom Kippur war and the 1982 conflict are their own sections. Secondly, it is inconsistent with the main article. It is suffering from the conflict being so recent. This should be dramatically cut down, following the pattern of all of the other conflicts. We have a main article for a reason. -- Avi 15:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

It's logical, since Misplaced Pages didn't exist in 1973 and 1982. I think this phenomenon is unavoidable. --Daniel575 | (talk) 15:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I understand why it happened, but I believe we should restore the symmetry and balance. Summary-style and all. -- Avi 15:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

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