Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 10:32, 7 September 2006

And now for a much thornier issue

Second, I would like to address a much thornier issue, that of a conflict between some Lithuanian and Polish editors, a conflict that has started few months ago and seems no sign of dissipaiting. I believe that it will not dissipate unless we sit down together and discuss it; and unlike some I believe that public discussions are much better then some secret private emails (which take forever and achieve little, IMHO). In other words, I'd would suggest the creation of a local equivalent of round table negotiations. And going further, I would like from suggestion to the actuall talk, right now, right here.

The issue, as I see it (and I am certainly not unbiased), is that for the period of past few months (so it is a relativly new phenomena), two things have happend; one good and one bad. The good one is that we (finally) got a significant influx of active contributors from Lithuania, something that I, Halibutt, Renata, and certainly many other users where waiting for (incidentally it seems there are more active users from Lithuania then from Poland, at least to me). The bad one (and this, again, is my own interpetation, which you are welcome to disagree with and contest) is that those new users seem to forget how Misplaced Pages works: especially about Misplaced Pages:Consensus (Misplaced Pages works by building consensus. This is done through polite discussion and negotiation), Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view (First: a Lithuanian POV is no better or worse then Polish POV, and second: everybody has a POV, so each article needs to be negotiated upon to eliminate both the Lithuanian and Polish POVs), Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith (to my knowledge, there is nobody involved with Polish noticeboard who displays any kind of anti-Lithuanian behaviour, there are however some editors who think that not having a Lithuanian POV equals to that) as well as Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks (some users persist with accusation that others are 'anti-Lithuanian', their edits have some underlying bad faith motive, or are just generaly impolite (violation of WP:CIV)).

That said, there is much truth in the proverb: it takes two to tango. I am sure some Polish editors have on occasion behaved uncivil or otherwise broke some wiki regulations, and a few weeks ago one was banned for (in part) such behaviour (I am all sure we know who it was, and let me use the opportunity here to wave a stick and remind some that it should serve as a warning).

Now, I would go back to the root of our problem. Most of it seems (again, in my opinion) revolve around several people: User:Halibutt (22793 edits, joined 2003/11/27, the 222-most active editor, a person who wrote a good part of several Featured Articles) on one side, usually supported by me (28220 edits, joined on 2004/04/10, the 150-most active editor), and User:M.K (1696 edits, 2006/04/18), User:Lokyz (3738 edits, 2005/07/06), User:Encyclopaedia Editing Dude (934 edits, 2006/02/24), User:Juraune (737 edits, 2006/05/04) on the other side (feel free to add anybody I forgot, I honestly have no idea which side if any User:Dr. Dan supports, but I am sure he will say something about this). Now, I am not saying that quantity is always quality, and I am not saying one group is completly at fault and the other is blameless, but I want to point out that both me and Halibutt have more experience with this project then his (our?) critics, so please, please assume good faith, and that I am trying to help us all here.

Halibutt contribution to Misplaced Pages in the terms of content creation are undisputable much greater then any of his critics, and many of his contributions are relevant to Lithuania; if not for him the entire Lithuanian section of English Misplaced Pages would be much poorer. He (nor I) may not use Lithuanian spelling, and obviously we write from Polish POV and not Lithuanian, but one can hardly require that one does so. We respect Lithuanian POV, but we expect that Lithuanian editors will show the same respect for our views and that we meet in the middle. We are not Lithuanian, so we simply cannot understand some things that are obvious to you, and by no fault of our own we may occasionally say something or write something that offends you. Yet because of that some people are assuming bad faith, and by repeating this again and again, and offending Halibutt (and me and some other Polish editors to the lesser extent). Further I am seeing that such an ongoing avalanche of accusations may slowly be turning into reality (per WP:CABAL, especially There is only a cabal if you want there to be one part). After several months of hearing how 'anti-Lithuanian' one is, I see Halibutt starting to loose patience and becoming less civil (although not as uncivil as some of the people who are constantly provoking him). Please realize that everybody has their own POV, and pro-Lithuanian is just as visible and 'bad' as pro-Polish; we always must strive for consensus and a middle ground. When one of us errs and sais something that irks the other side, please assume good faith, and point out to him (perhaps on talk?) that he has erred or hurt your feelings, instead of assuming one is a rampant anti-something. And especially when you are dealing with an editor who has done much more to this project then you, and has been here much longer, seen many more conflicts (and helped resolve them), please, please, be a little less self-righteous and consider that the truth always lies somewhere in the middle, and (gasp) that perhaps the more experienced editor may actually be more experienced with things like what is NPOV and what is not.

Last but not least, let me apologize here for having written anything that you may find offensive. I want to say here that I respect Lithuania, respect Lithuanian people, respect millenium-old history of Lithuania, and I hope that we can work together, in the spirit of our common ancestors, to build something together and teach the world about our respective history, instead of repeating the mistakes of the past.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:33, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

One thing. Discussion is posible only when one of the sides, does not treat other side as some sort of village idiots who can not differentiate between seeking of true compromise and POV pushing masked as a discussion (examples can be provided on request, but I hope that will not be necessary). However well derogative attitude will be masked, I can assure you, that it will not go unnoticed. And PLEASE don't be just writers, be the readers too. AND don't take it so personal Encyclopaedia Editing Dude 17:30, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Certainly both sides have to assume good faith for the discussion. I hope we are doing this, so I will simply nod in agreement with you and add something to my previous post (which I had to actually cut short due to RL issues). I have no time and will to dig through history and see what started this, and who is more at fault. Pointing fingers is rarely a good strategy, and I think it's rather irrelevant if it was Halibutt who snapped at somebody first or one of his opponents that jumped the gun, misinterpreted his edit and accused him of bad faith, or both in some combination. What done is done, and we can either continue the vicious circle or break it. For breaking it, I have the following recommendation. The accusations that Halibutt (and me, and some others) are anti-Lithuanian must stop. All parties involved (I named some users above, feel free to add them) should 'reach out' and apologize, as I did, to sooth the feeling and so we mid midway and on the same ground, dividing the blame. Then, with the past behind us, I would like to suggest we run a joint project on some topic related to Poland and Lithuania so we can learn to work together. From my personal experience I find out that nothing help to bring the editors together like a common, good faithed effort to improve an article (long story short, in my early days I was involved in a conflict over an article, but through collaborative effort not only did I an my erstwhile opponent ended up improving that article to FA status, but we bacame good wikifriends and I got nominated for an admin for my behaviour (the other user was an admin already)). Therefore I suggest that after the round of apologizes and burying the hatchet (a WP:TEA is a good place for that) we chose an article and collaborativly, as a joint venture of WikiProject Lithuania and WikiProject Poland (to be formalized), raise an article to FA status. Nomination for which article we should work on are welcomed, but for a start I would recommend something that is uncontroversial and that both of our nations can take an undisputed pride in. Warsaw Confederation (1573) perhaps? Battle of Grunwald? One of the kings?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  01:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Good that you brought up the matter Piotrus. Thank you for giving me some distiction in this matter, as to where my sympathies lie in this mess too. Somehow I got branded by Molobo and SylwiaS as being anti-Polish which I'm not. Some of the most happiest times of my life were spent in Poland, and I have travelled the length and breadth of Poland over and over again. My admiration for the Polish people is genuine, and I know their hearts. On the other hand I went to communist Poland with an open mind and would have acknowledged its "superiority" to another form of government, if it deserved such acknowledgement. It does not, and I have opposed any weasleing pretending that this is not the case. This has probably clouded my edits and participation lately. Now to the Lithuanian issue. I have made Lithuania a part of my academic life and travels too. Poland 75%, Lithuania 25%. But I understand the Lithuanian people's valiant stand against persecution and oppression, and admire it too. I understand their history and culture as well. I resent it being bullied and patronized. It was my perception early on in my dealings in Misplaced Pages, that there was "Super-Editing" going on by Polish contributors and editors in matters regarding Lithuania. I have not changed that opinion. A most simple example would be naming a small Lithuania city (one that had little historical association with Poland), in the the lead of the article in the Polish language. And then arguing about it because the town was mentioned in a children's book written in the 19th century in the Polish language. I could go on and on. My solution in solving the problem is different that your suggestion, Prokonsul, (the cooperation on a mutual article). It's too far past that. Too much damage has been done already. My solution is this. First, read meta:How to deal with Poles and apply that to your dealings with Lithuanians. Second, a moratorium on these "Super Editors" needing to meddle in the nascent and budding Lithuanian contributions to Misplaced Pages would be a good idea. This I'm sure would be the hardest thing for them to do. But why should it be? Should I stir up the pot and suggest that they write about and edit matters about Zulus or Portugal? Obviously the issue is too emotionally charged for the matter to be resolved other than by this moratorium. So unless there is some blatantly false and insulting attack on Poland or claim against it's integrity, I say leave it be, and leave them alone, and after sometime we can assess the entire situation differently. Here's an Olive branch being offered as a viable solution (I think others have been offered and rejected), to the cuurent problem. These are now two seperate countries that are neighbors, and seem to get along better on the international scene than they do on Misplaced Pages. I say "Let My People Go" , a metaphor, an old Negro spiritual. Dr. Dan 02:37, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I am afraid your solution is not possible: there are too many common subjects for any kind of separation to be possible, besides, it runs contrary to various Misplaced Pages policies, especially ones related to NPOV. We have survived the Gdansk Vote and we have a rather good relation with German noticboard. We were able to work with our eastern neihgbours and have FAs on some quite controversial subjects. This, believe it or not, is just one of many problems I have seen in my years here, and nothing to alarming. Working together will help, trying to split into two camps will not work and will further create some nasty 'us and them' divisions.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  05:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Excluding anyone is neither welcomed nor necessary. I would be against it. It is not an option. But revert wars are waste of time and it would be nice if they could be avoided. Encyclopaedia Editing Dude

Edit wars are controllable and already almost nonexistent. IMO much more time (and emotionally) wasting are these "circular" discussions, as someone (be it Lithuanian, or Pole) tries to bash his own POV over others (never mind how many of them), (pretending?) not to hear any arguments form other side. That’s why I have told earlier, that I will not participate at any of the votes in Misplaced Pages until things do change.

As for this issue - for certain amount of time personally I was trying to avoid Halibutt as much as possible (even stopped my work on certain historical articles and persons) to avoid clashes. I don't know maybe that's bad chemistry, or bad temper of both of us. Although after few times being shut up, and told that I'm ignorant by few abrupt "rewordings", I felt like I was bullied ad lost my temper. Now Piotrus says that there were more of people who behave the same way. Doesn't this show that there is a problem with certain persons? I do not want to blame anyone or say someone is such or that – just sometimes it does not work. Maybe it is spoiled by bad beginning? I still do try to avoid few other editors (and in this I do succeed much more). So much of emotions.

As for suggestions - there is strong urge to establish some firm procedures, which can help avoid such misunderstandings and clashes in the future. But for that we have to choose what we're doing - encyclopedia or some fictional literature composed of someone beliefs (sometimes even insulting).

One of my emotional and intellectual anointment is this outrageous usage of Google books as I do have master degree in History, during my studies I had to learn one basic thing: there are reliable and non reliable sources. To trust any source you need to read the whole book (document, article, whatever) and evaluate it. Any citations out of context are an absolute no no. Any quantitive evaluations are rather disputable. Any research based on original documents, rather than synthetic work (i.e. compilation) is much more reliable. Any "contemporary" documents and terms are to be treated in contemporary context. And so on.

And one more thing, quite common sin amongst non professionals dealing in history - evaluating different things in nowadays context (for example most common mistake is - wast majority of Ruthenians in GDL, and small minority of Lithuanians - without having any contemporary data, and a conclusion - Rutehnians were predominant. This one conclusion is quite easy to deny, suggesting to take a look at the map of 16th century cities infrastructure in GDL and density of population).

And here (I mean Misplaced Pages) I did came to a different world, where everything is based on POV's, beliefs and open hearted and emotional "argumentation" "ad hominem", and again google books and what annoys me even more - google hits and google fights serves to all logical arguments be dismissed as irrelevant.. And this is emotionally tiring, demotivating and absolutely unproductive. If these are the rules of the game to stay, I'll think about finding another activity to spend my spare time (sometimes I feel, like someone is aiming for that).

And the last thing - I'm strongly against baning, excluding or otherwise exiling anyone. This would not solve anything, and to some extent would even make it worse. Just simple change of tone and a little bit more patience by some editors would be sincerely welcome.--Lokyz 08:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

You raise an interesting point with Google Print. Indeed, it encourages some sloppy citations - but on the other hand, who can prove that the referencing editor has not red the entir ebook and is now providing a proper reference? All things considered, I view Google Print as a great tool for researchers. On another issue, I do agree that avoiding editors - and subjects - one finds problematic is often a good strategy.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  02:55, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Just so my very difficult proposition of a moratorium is not missunderstood, a self imposed moratorium would cool things down. That would be better than the kind of "moratorium" Molobo is going through. And like Lokyz, I'm against such censorship. Yes, let me go on record, much as I personally had lots of issues with Molobo, He should not have been banned! Maybe a 30 day moratorium could be tried instead of a longer period. The strife is, and has become a very thorny issue, as P.P. has called it. A larger type of "cooldown" is needed before there is a real "meltdown" here. Think about it. As for there being some uniqueness in Lithuania's and Poland's shared history, requiring some "super editting" or the requirement of a "modus vivendi" between them on WK, that's way overblown. Some of the Polish editors could spend time repairing similarily poor relations with Russian and German and other editors, along a similar vein during the proposed hiatus. Dr. Dan 13:44, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

For me moratorium on certain tones and poses in Talk pages (rather on all edits) is enough. If it is possible to avoid it, that's great and we can sorting things out, if it is not posible, then I don't think any moratorium would change this. I have no hard feelings towrads any of editors. As a warm up we could use Ethnic composition of Central Lithuania, and move step by step from smaller problems towards more complicated issues Encyclopaedia Editing Dude 15:36, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

While discussion and finding the solution is much welcome, but coming here and indirectly accusing some editors of cabal behavior, praising Halibutt`s and Piotrus deeds and even indirectly suggesting to shut up, because they “are” how “good” they; sorry but I cant believe about good faith from this. And let remind you: this is Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Lithuania not the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Halibutt nor Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Piotrus, try to find suitable location in different place. M.K. 16:35, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty certain that Piotrus' comments were in good faith. For sure some blaiming, some praising on semantical level can be sensed, but we can go past that. Maybe straight forward "cut the crap, let's find solution" aproach, would more welcomed, than lines like this "The accusations that (blah blah) are anti-**** must stop. All parties involved (yada yada) should 'reach out' and apologize" (no one apologizes then even truce is not established, Piotrus). But it's not important at all. Important thing is - where do we go from here.

P.S. M.K. I find your different place thingie quite original and amusing (I'm into good sarcasm myself). It might have been handy some time ago, but now it is not apropriate. Encyclopaedia Editing Dude 19:31, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I will write a bit clearer, what I have in mind first – all these “round table” negotiations should be conducted in other place not here, because this talk severs for different proposes. Solution is simple – pick up someday`s talk page and conduct discussion there or even open new sandbox for this purpose M.K. 21:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

M.K, please stop this. You're behaving. This is not your private space and not cabal hunting squad, this is a place where every contribution from everyone is welcome, under certain conditions - like no stones hidden under your clothes will be ever allowed. IMO you should be more patient to hear others, (and also to improve your image).--Lokyz 20:36, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

stop what? M.K. 20:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Back to business. If my moratoriun proposal is not acceptable, then I agree to Prokonsul Piotrus' (or P.P. for short) proposal to work on something else together. I also agree with user:Encyclopaedia Editing Dude's (E.E.D. for short) suggestion to do it on the Ethnic composition of Central Lithuania for starters. It would be a good place to find a "modus vivendi", and test the sincerity of P.P.'s proposal. Personally, I have never had a problem with P.P., or Balcer, or Lysy, and usually mediate my related concerns through them. Sure, we've "had it out", once in awhile, but we smooth things out amongst ourselves. It's others, IMHO, that will need to look at this "thorny issue" from a different perspective. Dr. Dan 03:33, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure if Ethnic composition of Central Lithuania is such a good place for that. I have no dealth with this subject before, but I am afraid it may be controversial; I'd suggest we chose a less controversial article for this endeavour.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

So it must be said, that the things are not working out like it should. Ocupations, diacritics, ideology of expulsion isn't a great start. The Airing of Grievances continues everythere, but it's right place ↓. So if we can't even try to edit old articles, because they straight away become too controversial, so maybe fresh start would help - we can try to create new article from zero. Any sugestions? Encyclopaedia Editing Dude 16:17, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

What about one of our kings? I think most of them were not controversial, they are rather important, yet there are still ones that are stubs, for Wikipe-tan's sake :) PS. Links of relevance: List_of_Lithuanian_rulers, List of Polish monarchs. 15 nice candidates from 1440 to 1795...-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:40, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Barbara Radziwiłł would be more close to Lithuanian national psyche. Encyclopaedia Editing Dude 17:23, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure if I understand why, but Barbara is a pretty good choice. So, who would like to join us in improving this article?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  22:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Barbara is too easy. Actually it isn't, because I removed a bogus insinuation that she died of venereal disease from Polish Wiki last December (if memory serves me right, around the 14th). Minutes ago, I removed an absurd contribution of P.P.s, regarding "modern research" (original research, maybe?), that her death was the result of uterine cancer. Obviously my medical backround will not allow me to stand for such poop. So even here, we are at an impasse. No, let's stick with a difficult topic like the Ethnic composition of Central Lithuania, and straighten out a "real" problem issue between all of the parties, rather than beating around the bush and "solving" a recipe or some such matter. Dr. Dan 02:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, Dan, blame my interests, but I find Barbara much more interesting than ECoCL, plain and simply.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  05:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that, if you want to kill thorn, you shouldn’t start from small sticks, but instead start form it’s roots. M.K. 09:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

...and speaking about roots... I really do appreaciate, Piotrus, your efforts and I now it takes some guts to come here and offer peace, but... you are not the problem (sorry to disappoint you :P). The troublemaker is Halibutt, plain and simple. And unless he comes down here and apologizes the way you did (recognizing that there are no saints among us) I don't see this going anywhere. Renata 18:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I know that Renata, but let me add that Halibutt is not the only troublemaker. M.K.'s behaviour is quite shameful, and E.E.D. seems to be as able to lose temper just as Halibutt can (a restraining order on both may be in order :>). I suggested above that everybody should apologize, and didn't want to name particular names, but if you think only a selected handful should do so, that's fine with me - but please note that it is not the 'one side's fault' only issue. I am sure Halibutt would be willing to aplogozie - but not alone, nor should he.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  00:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

EED and M.K are here and talking, and trying to figure something out. What's Hali doing? Renata 02:45, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

As I have shown above with some statistics, and as any cursory check of his contribs can show, Halibutt is busy writing content and engaging in meaningful discussions with contributors, running a bot or uploading pictures, in other words, doing constructive things as usual. And if everything you can come up is 'Hali must apologize and everything is his fault', then I am afraid my attempt at mediation has failed, and we should follow with formal mediation, as per WP:DR.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  03:55, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Mediation when one of the parties is not present? Renata 04:25, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

That, of course, needs to be changed.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  07:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd suggest that he's too busy writing defenses for sockpuppets, but that would get me into trouble, so I won't. Seriously, now is the time to finish this one way or another with everyone laying their cards out on the table. If my style is too blunt, too bad. Moratorium is going to be a real option real soon, if we don't. It's maybe the best restraining order, possible under the circumstances. Dr. Dan 03:02, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Dr.Dan, personal attacks like above can certainly get you into trouble. I wonder if you would like to apologize for your unfounded accusation of sockpuppetry above? Let me state here that your contributions to this and similar issues are too often violation of WP:NPA, WP:AGF and similar policies, so please, think twice before you do so again. Flaming is not helpful.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  03:55, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The absurdity of it all, is the need for "collaboration" on articles concerning Lithuania by Lithuanians and Poles. This "need" for some editors to stick their noses into these subjects habitually (and very biasedly, I might add), is the problem. That's the thornier issue, and the sooner that is acknowledged the better. Is there some specific issue that is Polish, that is constantly messed with by the Lithuanian editors? I still say, "Let these people go"! And M.K., now under attack, is right. Let's deal with the "root" of the problem, the nitty gritty, not who had the best recipe for ogórek kiszony (see talk on these pickles). Dr. Dan 02:06, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there are, for example, the current messed name of Wladislaw Jagiello, or the the attempts to portray Armia Krajowa as an anti-Lithuanian genocidal organization...every coin has two sides, Dr.Dan, but I have to agree with Halibutt that some people persistent in seeing only one side of it. And Dan, if you want to deal with root of the problem, I'd seriously considered starting with always so outspoken, yet not so encyclopedia-content creation M.K, instead of a prolific editor like Halibutt...-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  03:55, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

And now you have just insulted M.K. What so "not so encyclopedia-content creation" about Vilnius Castle Complex or Trakai Castle? Renata 04:25, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that M.K. encyclopedic contributions are anywhere near Halibutt's? I am comparing them. Of course that does not mean I value M.K. individual encyclopedic contributions less - just that there are much, much fewer of those then of Halibutt's.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  07:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Please show me, where anyone said that Armia Krajowa is genocidal organization?

On the other hand, somewhat defense of organization, that did committed war crimes (nobody is saying it was it's agenda) by putting unreferenced accusations, that Vilnija, which is accusing "someone who is not guilty", is de facto "nationalistic" does not seem to be the best way to understanding each other. Is everyone who points to Polish crimes a nationalist and Polonophobe? I do doubt that. Because I do admit, that my countrymen are guilty, without trying to find any excuses. and only by knowing and recognizing that, such things can be avoided in the future. That's what i did have in mind when speaking about stone under someone's clothes.

And this accusation serpent: "They killed because they killed because they killed because they killed " as in case Glitiškės-Dubingiai leads to an uncontrollable rage, which can be stopped only by saying that both sides are equal guilty. And trying to dismiss accusations on killing as a revenge it is nor productive nor right (any judge in any country would tell you that).

And one more thing - Piotrus, please stop frightening anyone with sanctions. This is not a way to reach compromise.--Lokyz 09:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Piotrus, its time for you to take a look at what you are adding to the flame wars. In the first place there was no accusation of sockpuppetry being made any place above, and therefore no need for me to make an apology. My reference is to a discussion pertaining to Jogaila:talk by Halibutt (unanswered) in the most recently archived talkpage (# 8, I think). Will there be an apology from you forthcoming? Doubt it! Because I see your refereeing to be rather lopsided. You once told me that the longest journey begins with the first step, agreed. So the argument of a prolific editor like Halibutt vs. a prolific editor like Ghirlandajo, means very little to me (they are entitled to contribute like anybody else). If someone is starting off, I am not going to "wave a stick at them", unless I'm going to wave a stick at every party involved. This why when Renata, mentioned Halibutt, you're unable to be neutral enough to address his sins without having to drag "both sides of the coin" immediately into your response. A new contributor has the same rights in my mind (but evidentally not in yours) as a "prolific" editor that is now being shown to be very biased, and therefore detrimental to the WK project. He remains quiet. Good. Dr. Dan 04:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Dr.Dan, it is an estabilished practice that if you are making a reference to some other talk, link it in your comment. Otherwise your comment, like that above, looks like you are accusing Halibutt of sockpuppetry out of thin air. I never claimed I was neutral, but it appears everybody else considers themself so. In such an environment I see little hope for any compromise (unless I assume your defintion of the 'compromise' which means you are 100% right and others are 100% wrong...). I am increasingly not suprised that Halibutt, who has much more experience in dealing with you and some other involved editors choses to remain silent; nonetheless I still hope that my impression is wrong and some sort of middle ground can be found (note: middle does not mean yours! it means 'in between').-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  07:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Gosh, I'll better be late to work than miss this one. If I don't reply here soon it would turn out that I'm a defendant here, and not just one of the guys involved... Anyway, I'm pretty busy these days and I was forced to limit my wiki activities to the very minimum (sadly, not more than 2 hours a day or so), which is why I could not reply sooner (besides, nobody let me know on my talk page). Renata, that's the same reason why you're still waiting for my lengthy letter to arrive, for which I'm sorry. No hidden intentions, Renata, just simple problems with my real life and making my bread. Really.

But let's move on and allow me to reply in points, it'd be easier for me.

1. Piotrus, kudos for bringing it here. A hand was extended and it was shaken, as we say here, which is how the things should work in the wiki. As to an article we might work on together, Barbara is a nice choice. Another one might be Casimir IV Jagiellon, a guy I have lots of books on (and whom I personally consider one of the worst monarchs we had, BTW). Finally, if you want to start with something easier, I've been working on a lengthy article on Władysław II (User:Halibutt/Jagiello). It's almost ready and you could simply drop in and add facts and sources. The more we have, the better :)
2. Renata, if I am responsible for some offences, then I'm truly sorry. I assure you that never in my wiki life did I offend anyone on purpose. If I got carried away from time to time (diffs and links, as always, are welcome), it is not because I have any personal vendetta against anyone. Life's too short for that. Anyway, take note that in many cases what you perceive as offensive (yet do not mention that at all), is not offensive at all to others. I'm going to get stoned for mentioning that, but what the heck: in one of your letters you mentioned that seeing Polish names of Lithuanian cities is offensive to some of your fellow countrymen. Until you wrote that I never even thought that a toponym might be an offence. I admit using Polish names here and there, but this is not because I wanted to offend anyone, but because I found them important and notable. Whether I'm right on that one is a different matter, but the very intention behind mentioning Polish names where I found fit was not to enrage or offend anyone. I hope that's clear to you - both from my comment here and from our mail.
3. Dan, as to your idea of a moratorium, like almost all people above I'm sure it's a bad idea. The basic problem is that I can't recall any problems concerning clear-cut issues. The problems with trigger-happy Poles and Lithuanians arise in the case of articles covering the areas of our common history or personalities that are neither clearly Polish nor Lithuanian. If we declared not to touch those issues, there would be no articles on them at all. After all there's barely anyone in wikipedia interested in Polish-Lithuanian history besides Poles and Lithuanians themselves (and especially so after most of our Belarussian friends have left the wiki).

I guess your busy writing defences for sockpuppets remark does not merit my comment, does it. I would appreciate it if you were less trigger-happy when casting such accusations in the future - or presented diffs and links.

1. Dude, I must say I'm astonished by the friendly and sober comments. I must admit that, following your comments on various talk pages, I mistook you for a person you're apparently not. I'm sorry for that and I'm happy to announce that I could sign every single word of what you wrote above with my own name. Except perhaps for the proposal to work on Ethnic composition..., which is not a good idea for one reason: it seems to me that all problems you raise at the talk page could be solved with a single move. We should just find a better name that you would find acceptable and that's it.
2. M.K., I agree with the rest of the folks that what we have to say here is more important than where we say it. This place is just as good as any, if you feel the title is a problem I encourage you to move this discussion to, say, Portal:Poland/Poland-related Misplaced Pages notice board/Conflict resolution. I'm sure nobody would've problem with that.

Did I miss any issues? //Halibutt 10:32, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I've got a lot of problems with you people, and now you're going to hear about it!

Some sort of The Airing of Grievances talk page might be useful I think. Few Ghosts of Past Edits are still around. So let all Grievances out and Festivus miracle might come upon us. Those who not wish to involve in nondenominational practices for religious reasons, might want to try some Serenity now! stuff.

The Airing of Grievances should be adressed here ↓ and not here ↑ Encyclopaedia Editing Dude 17:14, 4 September 2006 (UTC)