Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 06:58, 20 November 2016

Welcome!

Hello, BronHiggs, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

• The five pillars of Misplaced Pages
• Contributing to Misplaced Pages
• The Misplaced Pages Adventure (a fun interactive editing tutorial that takes about an hour)
• Misplaced Pages Teahouse (a user-friendly help forum)
• How to edit a page and How to develop articles
• How to create your first article (using the Article Wizard if you wish)
• Simplified Manual of Style

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Questions, or you can click here to ask for help on your talk page, and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome! We are so glad you are here! Jim1138 (talk) 05:04, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

behaviour v behavior

The first is the British spelling. Please maintain the English variant within the article. Generally, an article maintains the variant from the original edit unless it is country specific. See wp:engvar. Please return the article to its British (or Canadian, Irish, Australian... variant)? I can't spell behaviour behavior anymore... Thank you Jim1138 (talk) 05:04, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Editing articles

Hello and welcome to Misplaced Pages, I hope you will enjoy editing. However, please refrain from adding comments like this to article pages. The appropriate place for comments is the talk page of the respective article. Also, you may consider making larger edits, such as expansions, in your sandbox (the link is in the top right corner) first, and then pasting them into the article. This way, no one will add notices about empty sections and such. No longer a penguin (talk) 08:43, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm all done

I came to Misplaced Pages just a few weeks ago after noticing that a slew of text books (drafts) and journal articles (drafts) were confusing some foundation concepts - notably the 'evoked set' and the 'consideration set' - basic concepts in any course on Consumer Behaviour. I couldn't understand how so many prospective authors were getting it so wrong and decided to investigate. I soon found that several Marketing Tutor websites were printing notes with incorrect definitions, and also Misplaced Pages was using the incorrect definitions.

So, I wrote to the the Marketing Tutor companies - but they don't seem to be all that concerned. Then, I registered with Misplaced Pages and began correcting the material. Once I got into Misplaced Pages, I was shocked to find the poor state of the content on a number of Wiki pages in the marketing area - conceptually unsound, just plain wrong, misleading, unbalanced, unsourced, unfocussed, unstructured and so poorly written. So, I beavered away for several weeks and overhauled a number of pages in the marketing area.

In the process, I was very careful to try and rectify the contributions made by others. Wherever possible, I added references, edited the prose, attempted to integrate repetitive material with existing prose; moved prose to new sections where it could stand alone and when I had no choice but to delete, I tried to suggest another location for that material.

It was going OK until I had an unpleasant experience with an over-zealous editor who seems determined to delete any content that does not have his approval or fails to meet his high standards of excellence. He couches his concerns in terms of Wiki policies (e.g. inadequately referenced, unreliable reference, "editorialising"). After reversing out a few paragraphs that I thought were perfectly acceptable (and were properly referenced), I asked for an explanation. He offered an explanation that frankly made little sense, so I consulted the Wiki policies, sent him extracts of the relevant sections - but needless to say his objections to the deleted material morphed into new objections. Rather than engage with my counter-arguments (by, for example, showing me how I had misinterpreted WP's policies), he simply raised a whole new raft of objections.

After a bit of to and fro, his objections became more and more bizarre. He dropped the pretense of working around WP Policies. Instead, his new objections revolved his own personal likes and dislikes. He said that he did not like my "conversational tone" - that what I had written "trivialises the discipline", accuses me of "making it up" (in spite of three academic references) and finally dismissed me altogether by saying that "some content just doesn't belong on Misplaced Pages" and advising me to "get a book and work from that". I soon got the impression that he thinks he is the only arbiter of what is acceptable on Misplaced Pages, regardless of what the written policies actually say. (Actually, I also got the impression that he wasn't entirely certain as to why he was objecting - because the reasons were so fluid and often contradictory). The whole affair was very unpleasant.

I checked this person's editing history - and he is a "deleter" - reversing entries across multiple topic areas for many hours each day. I can only rarely see instances where he has actually added anything. He regularly comes into conflict with other editors whose prose he saw fit to delete for various reasons. He is a diminisher while many of us are contributors.

It's not worth going into battle over these things - let's face it, it is a voluntary role - and if you are not getting any satisfaction out of it - then it is time to quit. It should never become an annoyance. Life is too short to waste on 'anal' editors who appear to be carrying some sort of a vendetta against anyone who wants to actually contribute.

I was a marketing educator for 32 years, and before that worked in sales and marketing. I had a regular column for the Australian Marketing Magazine for many years and I continue to write a weekly blog on topical issues in marketing for one of the major international publishers of business texts. I also help young academics to improve their journal articles so that they can be published in A & B journals. I really know my stuff! And, I was prepared to share it with others via Misplaced Pages. Moreover, now that I am semi-retired, I have the time to devote to fixing some of the many marketing pages on Wiki; pages that are in very poor shape.

After my unfortunate experience, I will no longer be contributing to Misplaced Pages. So I want to say this to other editors. Please be extra careful about deleting content on a whim, or when you are in a bad mood. This action simply discourages others from contributing. When people make a contribution, for the main part, they do so in good faith. Always try to find a way to improve the material rather than just delete entire paragraphs or sections.

Here are a few suggestions (instead of hitting the delete button):

• (for unsourced material),- find a suitable source and add it; alternatively put a sign in the relevant place.
• (inadequately/ unreliable sources) - find a superior source
• (poor prose)- edit and improve the prose -sometimes this needs little more than punctuation, but sometimes it does require a bit more effort
• (repetitive ideas or themes) - find away to collapse the two or to integrate them in some way -usually when there are repetitive sections, one strand will have some ideas that are not contained in the other part. Try to use the best of both and integrate them in some way.
• (lack of focus) - try and find a way to provide the focus so that the discussion becomes integrated with material around it; ensure that the heading and the content in that section are logically related; if not - create a new heading and move unfocused prose to the new section
• (lack of structure) - create new headings or sub-headings and organise the material into logical categories under meaningful headings; as a generalisation move from the 'big picture' to the 'little pictures' as if you are 'drilling down' and getting a more detailed and in-depth look at the subject as you go down the page

If you have a go at these things, it will help to improve your own writing and editing skills. Any improvement that you can make is preferable to simply deleting large slabs of text (especially when it is just because you don't like it).

If you really feel that you must delete, remember that lengthy deletions have the potential to leave large gaps on the page - which can result in the remaining material losing its context, reading in a jerky manner and without any sense of flow or purpose. If you must delete, can you replace the content with something that is acceptable so that the prose on the page still works as a coherent, integrated whole (and not just an itemised list of dot points)?

Misplaced Pages needs a lot of help to get the marketing pages into good shape. Please don't be a diminisher. Please try to be a builder! BronHiggs (talk) 11:41, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Please tell me who this editor is, and will be investigated. _{Adotchar| reply here} 21:55, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

A cup of coffee for you!

Thanks for sharing the list of editing suggestions with citations to Marketing research. That is an amazing list. Books have been written based on that kind of research. If you pulled all this from a bibliography of a book then thanks. If this is your own original compilation then that is amazing. This kind of insight is uncommon anywhere and very rare to see proposed on Misplaced Pages. Blue Rasberry (talk) 03:15, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Editor's Barnstar
	Thanks. Adotchar| reply here 21:56, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Editing

Go to this link for a short list of articles to fix up: https://tools.wmflabs.org/enwp10/cgi-bin/list2.fcgi?run=yes&projecta=Marketing_%26_Advertising&importance=Top-Class&quality=Stub-Class We really need someone to at least get them to C-Class articles. They're stub class, the lowest. _{Adotchar| reply here} 09:45, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Writer's Barnstar
	Thank you for fixing up a lot of marketing related articles, and making the topic much better. Adotchar| reply here 22:13, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Talkback

CaroleHenson (talk) 05:25, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Talk page formatting

Hello,

Well, we're on a good roll!

A couple of reminders, so that we can track the conversations:

• Please sign your posts by typing four tildes (CaroleHenson (talk) 05:55, 5 November 2016 (UTC)). I know that you do this a lot, it's just a matter of getting in the habit.
• Please indent your conversation so each individual response is easily seen - and the conversation can be tracked easily. See this section now.
• When there has been too much indenting - or you are bringing up a new point - you can add {{outdent}} just before you add your comments. See {{outdent}}.

Thanks so much!--CaroleHenson (talk) 05:55, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	Thanks for sticking at it, it's a shame your initial experience was bad but it's good to see all the work you've done on marketing articles. jcc (tea and biscuits) 17:16, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

E. Jerome McCarthy has been nominated for Did You Know

Hello, BronHiggs. E. Jerome McCarthy, an article you either created or to which you significantly contributed,has been nominated to appear on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as part of Did you know. You can see the hook and the discussion here. You are welcome to participate! Thank you. APersonBot (talk!) 12:01, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Positioning (marketing)

As mentioned on the talk page, I set up User:BronHiggs/Positioning (marketing) for you.

Pro: That way you can use that space to develop the article and don't have to worry about having posted content that is not yet fully developed, has formatting issues or errors, etc. And, because it's not going into article space, you're not likely going to get comments along the way, unless you ask for them. Then, when the article is ready, it can be moved into article space. It will take a lot of pressure off of you, if you'd like to do it that way.

Con: You won't have people coming in and asking questions and making edits, which could help further it along faster.

If you don't want to use a sandbox, then the {{under construction}} tag should remain, unless you can ensure that you're not introducing errors and are inserting "ready for prime time" content.

Does that make sense?--CaroleHenson (talk) 22:14, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

OK, I now realise that I had totally misunderstood the Wiki approach. I had been labouring under the incorrect impression that it was about making incremental improvements over time so that an article gradually converged on something worthwhile. I had totally failed to recognise that content needed to be fully developed and/or error-free on the first pass. Thanks for bringing me up to speed on this. BronHiggs (talk) 01:36, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Origins - I added some content to try and put some "meat on the bones" for this section. I didn't mean to imply that it needed to go, just that it needs work.

Noted with thanks BronHiggs (talk) 01:36, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

One thing that can happen by being too close to a subject is that you might focus on "how influential" someone's input into marketing thought might have been... without stepping back a bit to find a way to say "why it was influential". I hope this helps.

Just to clarify, I did not write the passage about "influential". It was pre-existing content, and as far as I can work out had been part of the article for many years. I am very reluctant to delete existing content - except where it is factually or conceptually unsound. I simply left the original passage there and worked around it.BronHiggs (talk) 01:36, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

I left the text that you had in the section. It's commented out so you can refer to it... and rewrite it to bring the points home. But in the short run, it's hidden from view.--CaroleHenson (talk) 00:52, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Noted with thanksBronHiggs (talk) 01:36, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

By the way, I have no intention of writing the article, but while you work on it in article space, I'll try and help steer you to notable content that is encyclopedic in nature. I know that this kind of thing has been said to you before, so let me try to delve into it a little more.

Noted with thanksBronHiggs (talk) 01:36, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Encyclopedic content should be meaningful and objective content, so that once someone reads a paragraph, or a section they know something about the topic, they've learned something.

Was doing my best to work towards this objective. But it takes time, and may require several passes.BronHiggs (talk) 01:36, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

What should the reader have learned when they've been told that something is "influential"? Because one person says it's influential, is it truly influential? They might be asking themselves, why is it influential? I might use something like that as a hook to engage the reader and then explain why. If you cannot do that with sourced content, then it shouldn't be in the article (see weasel i.e., unsupported attributions). Do you see what I mean?--CaroleHenson (talk) 01:13, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Noted with thanks. BronHiggs (talk) 01:36, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Regarding using a sandbox, I was talking about the pros and cons of using a sandbox vs. putting {{under construction}} tag. Working in a sandbox takes a lot of stress off, particularly as you say about getting the right content, But it takes time, and may require several passes. It's not a right or wrong, it's another option.

To clarify what I was talking about above about making pointed and informative content vs. adding what may be considered weasel words, the additions made here by you here include "These articles were to become highly influential", without any backup about what that meant. I repeat this because: 1) we addressed this in the E. Jerome McCarthy discussions, and it came up again and 2) to show you the specific edit.--CaroleHenson (talk) 09:16, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Clearly, I have got the wrong end of the stick and am incapable of learning or being acculturated into the Wiki way of things. After I complete those two projects early next year, I think it would be preferable for both me, and the Wiki community if just stay away from Misplaced Pages in the future.--added signature info BronHiggs (talk) 03:41, 9 November 2016‎

I don't think anyone has suggested that. I surely haven't and don't mean to imply that.

For what it's worth, I had a lot of comments about my work early on. Such as this:

...Sit back for a bit, have a brew and remember that WP is a big place with a lot of people involved in it. You are going to have things reverted at some point - we all do, even after we have been here a while - but you can learn from it. Happen I think that your enthusiasm could be very beneficial to the project and I would urge you to persevere. Things do eventually fall into place. My suspicion is that one of the problems at the moment is that your enthusiasm is slightly misguided: this is normal

There are a lot of guidelines, and some of them don't make sense at first, like the primary and secondary discussions. I would like to repeat the great advice I got, "I would urge you to persevere. Things do eventually fall into place." --CaroleHenson (talk) 15:03, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

November 2016

Hello. This is a message to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions, such as the edit you made to E. Jerome McCarthy, did not appear constructive and has been undone. Please take some time to familiarise yourself with our policies and guidelines. You can find information about these at our welcome page which also provides further information about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia. If you only meant to make test edits, please use the sandbox for that. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you may leave a message on my talk page. Please don't add tags to clarify something discussed at length the on the talk page. See Talk:E. Jerome McCarthy#Timeline. You know that there's no more clarification. The only option, really, is to take out the info with primary sources if it concerns you. CaroleHenson (talk) 22:18, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

A cup of coffee for you!

Thanks for trying Misplaced Pages. I appreciate the information you shared but your experience of finding Misplaced Pages toxic is a common sentiment. There is a steep learning curve and definitely a lot of people do not enjoy being here. If you are not enjoying by now, then your intuition that your time is better spent elsewhere is probably correct. I wish you could stay but I cannot promise a different response than you have already received. I regret the negative experience you had and am sorry that the community here is unable to be more welcoming. Maybe some day! I regret the loss of your attention, but thanks for what you have already done. I removed that mentorship request that I posted to seek support for you. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:14, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Marketing

Hi there. You left a couple of notes on my talk page regarding some copyright violations to this page; I just checked, and I've made a total of one edit to that page, back in October 2010, and it was a revert of a blanking. I think you missed the contributor you were targeting. Could you maybe take a look at that, please? Tony Fox (arf!) 05:08, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Please explain

Please explan

Dear Bronwyn, Another user has notified my that you have marked a set of Misplaced Pages articles, all around 10 years old, for deletion. It appears that you have seached for all references to McNair and myself, and tagged these for deletion. One of these is an obituary for a well known father of our industry. Your actions appear vexatious. We have not used Misplaced Pages in many years, and need time to get help in defending ourselves. Could you email me personally at matt@mcnair.com.au to tell me who put you up to this attack. It is not about editing, it is contrary to the spirit of Misplaced Pages, and we are making inquiries as to whether this constitutes online harrassement. Mpbalogh (talk) 06:21, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Complaint Made

	Complaint Made
	Bronwyn, I have lodged a complaint with Wikpedia. Mpbalogh (talk) 06:58, 20 November 2016 (UTC)