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Suggested closing of loophole

Lacks instructions

Add the following to see also:

• Misplaced Pages:Method for consensus building — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.3.126.198 (talk) 12:11, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

more clearly defined "no consensus" policy?

I have difficulties to find good solutions for situations were I argue with another editor about the removal of possibly critical article content and were do not find a consensus. Imagine the following timeline:

• editor A complies to WP:BRD and deletes contested material in an article
• editor B reverts this
• editor A opens a talk page thread
• A and B engage in an endless discussion on the talk page without reaching consensus
• B reverts any changes of A (i.e. the deletions of the contested content) back to the original state during this discussion with the argument "no consensus for deletion"
• a RFC produces some more opinions with a majority (but maybe not all) opinions for removing the contested content
• due to the continous reverts during the endless discussion and the argument of B (no deletion as no consensus is reached), the content still stays in the article
• even if a majority of people argue for the removal, WP:NODEMOCRACY applies, so there is no automatism to generate "consensus"

Especially in articles with low traffic (hence few editors on the talk page) I have experienced this "strategy" of B (at least I percieve it as a strategy, it does not necessarily have to be intentional or strategic) to be quiet successful in keeping contested content in the article, especially if A looses interest and/or not too many people participate in the RFC. It is clear that there are disputes where there is no clear right or wrong (i.e. whether something is off topic or not) and I would theoretically be fine with me to just leave the discussion (I have usually been editor A ;-)) and the article as is (with the contested content). That is how I would interpret the current policy in WP:CONSENSUS:

"In discussions of proposals to add, modify or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit."

There are, however, situations where the argument against the content are violations of e.g. WP:SYNTH, WP:COATRACK, WP:BIO or similar and leaving the article as is would be in my eyes harmful so either a clear guideline or hints on how to proceed or next steps if no consensus is reached would in my eyes help. So, to boil all this text down to some concrete questions:

1. Are there best practices and guidelines on how to proceed in such a situation?
2. Would it make sense to add some situations (i.e. WP:SYNTH violations) to the current policy where just leaving the article as is should not be the default mode (like the exception there for WP:BIO)? Or a majority of people arguing against the content is enough to keep it out of the article would be enough? In my eyes this would help ...
3. Would it make sense to clearify in WP:CONSENSUS that during the discussion and during the "no consensus" state, the contested content stays out of the article? This would shift more responsibility to reach consensus (e.g. call for RFCs, propose less contentious formulations) etc to editor B. As of now, just repeating his argument and claiming that there is no consensus quiet often was enough to keep the article as is.
4. Or is WP:ONUS already the policy for this? I read it that way, i.e. that editor B should argue for the inclusion of the contested content and when "no consensus" is reached stuff just stays out of the article but there seem to be different opinions about this.

What are your thoughts? Either extending the guidelines or outlining a good way to proceed in WP:CONSENSUS for such situations would in my eyes be helpful. Just as an example (please do not WP:CANVASS there!), one article where I am involved in such a discussion is Murder of Maria Ladenburger. There are clearly aspects in that article where just leaving it as is would not be too harmful (i.e. leaving the stuff that I personally consider to be off topic like the connection to the other rape case) but others like the WP:SYNTH stuff (the burqa) or the possible WP:BIO violations where I personally would consider the contested stuff to be to harmful to stay. Thanks a lot and a happy new year, LucLeTruc (talk) 14:55, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

WP:ONUS does address much of this (although not every type of content dispute), if I understand your issue. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:13, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

• For articles with WP:BLP concerns, usually it's esasy to remove the content unless there is consensus to include it. However, when the disputed content is not problematic for living persons, I find it much more useful to use WP:STICKTOSOURCE as the overarching policy. If, instead of removing all content, the article wording is a direct paraphrasing of the content found in the reliable source, it is typically much easier to achieve some form of weak consensus. Doing that would be much more difficult if editor A insists on removing per WP:ONUS all traces of some reliably sourced content that editor B thinks should be covered in the article in some form. Diego (talk) 15:31, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

@Alanscottwalker:, thanks for your reply. In what way does WP:ONUS handle this? In a way that B in this case would have to argue for including the stuff (i.e. keeping it) and if he fails to convince A (and others who responded in the RFC), this stuff stays out of the article (this is how I interpret this)? The phrase in WP:CONSENSUS ("In discussions a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal") however, contradicts this as here it is not the choice between "in" or "out" but rather restoring to "before" the dispute. Which in the case I describe means "in" the article. LucLeTruc (talk) 17:01, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

@Diego: I agree, with violations of WP:STICKTOSOURCE guidelines are strict and clear and rewording it is most often straightforward. Most issues we are discussing over there, however, are sourced (reasonably) well. The problem arises, when well sourced content just does not fit into an article because it is off topic (which may be subjective) or because (as with the burqa thing) a misinterpretation of the source (again, my perspective) make the content to appear "on topic". LucLeTruc (talk) 17:14, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

If the content was properly sourced and has survived there for a while, past the attention of several editors making changes without finding issue with the content, I'd say that consensus had already been achieved and WP:ONUS does not apply. This would be a case of WP:Consensus can change, but then the onus is on the people disputing the content to show that there's a new consensus against it. Again, this would be subject to the severity of having the content shown; if there's no significant harm in showing it, I'd always err on including the content and letting the readers decide by themselves how relevant it is by checking the references, maybe also adding a tag to warn them on the nature of the disagreement.

As with any other case, in case of prolonged disagreement the right answer is to keep trying to attract the attention of other editors as described in the dispute resolution process. Diego (talk) 18:13, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. Agree, if no harm is done, I can live with articles that just include (in my eyes) off topic stuff. And if the dispute persists over "harmful" content, I have now found these noticeboards that I will use in the future to attract more input. There are, however, already quiet some voices from other editors in the given examples and for some of the aspects also a clear majority of people who argue against the contested content. Still, the argument of WP:NODEMOCRACY could hold (and is raised in the current discussion). So, lets stay with the synthetic example above: given that A has attracted several other editors by various means and the feedback is quiet clear for removing the content, how to proceed if B is still not convinced? Would this Request for Closure Admin Noticeboard be the next and most constructive and helpful step? Seems to be a bit cumbersome to me for really clear cases, but A just starting to revert again in practise lead to edit wars (B tends to revert back to his original version). LucLeTruc (talk) 18:33, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Yes that is the best route (and also see Closing discussions), but I hasten to add that what seems "really clear" to a participant in the discussion may not seem nearly so clear to a neutral or dispassionate observer. I also second Diego's suggestion of dispute resolution. Finally, in those cases in which an consensus evaluation is not clear, it must be bourne in mind that "no consensus" is a perfectly acceptable result under Misplaced Pages principles. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 18:53, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. I totally agree. I would never fight endlessly for something which can also be seen from a different viewpoint. My whole motivation for this question, however, were some instances were I found strong POV or OR/SYNTH stuff in articles about crime and immigration where I just had the feeling that leaving it as is is just no option. And where even as I know that there is no such thing as "truth" i was still convinces that I was objectively right, not just subjectively ;-). In some of these cases engaging into the discussion was really tedious. Even after 4-5 people unanimously argued in my line, I could not convince one single other editor. So I was wondering at which stage I could just stop the discussion and engage into bold reverting even with one person still arguing against a consensus. First opening an RFC and then a request to close the discussion is a lot of work (and takes weeks), especially if you have to argue about many small aspects individually (and similar aspects in a lot of different articles). But if this is the way wikipedia works, most probably I would have to accept that. LucLeTruc (talk) 01:39, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

I say we just burn this whole policy to the ground and say best man wins. Vjmlhds (talk) 22:30, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Stable version

The policy should mention the common pitfall "reverting to stable", "better before", "it's been that way for a long time", and other phrases that use the status-quo or the earlier editor's version as a stonewall technique. The policy should mention that consensus according to a policy , guideline, or discussion is a better level of consensus than consensus by editing, which often doesn't reflect consensus but reflects lack of attention from other editors. Either "Pitfalls and errors" or "Level of consensus" should reflect this. BrightRoundCircle (talk) 14:11, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Or it could just urge people to always revert to the Wrong Version. (That was meant as a joke.) Seriously, you have proposed two things.

(A) re status-quo, you appear to be saying that one may not revert to statusquo without some good reasoning on the merits beyond fact it has been the status quo. That's a very big rock to throw in the pond. Setting such a rule would make it open season on veteran editors on high traffic controversial articles. All anyone would have to do is make frequent dubious bold edits to exhaust veteran editors. Instead, the bold editor has the burden of the initial justification. That's the way it should be, IMO.

(B) re CONLEVEL, what problem is this idea trying to fix? It might be educational, and it might be accurate, but it doesn't seem to create a policy, per se. Does it?

NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 02:25, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

the bold editor has the burden of the initial justification — I'm not proposing to change that. This is addressed in WP:EDITCONSENSUS and what you're describing is edit-warring and non-good-faith edits. What I'm describing is good faith edits (for example fixing up a page according to Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines), having the edits reverted, and then being WP:STONEWALLed with "better before" or "it's been that way for a long time", meaning "despite the consensus represented in Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, I will not let you apply them to this page because it was better before." Clearly "it was this way before" does not override Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, and that's what should be made clear. BrightRoundCircle (talk) 09:10, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

I agree with the idea that status-quo reverts of otherwise wonderful well-sourced text is a bad thing, so I salute your aspiration here. That said, the devil is in the details and I still fear unintended consequences. So now that at least we two editors agree on the principle, can you suggest some text to add to implement this, and then we will have something tangible to evaluate? Bear in mind this is a policy, and edit warriors will pounce to spin anything they think helps their cause. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:54, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Slightly rewording a sentence or two from the WP:STONEWALL guideline would be fine. WP:SILENCE has some choice words about it. WP:STEWARDSHIP almost directly touches the subject: "In many cases, a core group of editors will have worked to build the article up to its present state, and will revert edits that they find detrimental in order, they believe, to preserve the quality of the encyclopedia. Such reversion does not indicate an "ownership" problem, if it is supported by an edit summary referring to Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, previous reviews and discussions, or specific grammar or prose problems introduced by the edit." (emphasis mine)

Many editors forget about the itty bitty if there and revert to their "present state" version which does not adhere to policies, guidelines, or discussion, only silence or at best presumption of consensus by editing. BrightRoundCircle (talk) 13:19, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

• I do not think the above is a good idea. It's obviously not stonewall. It's a disagreement about what is better text. And it is a constant across much of Misplaced Pages that status quo default. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:30, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Just because it happens a lot doesn't mean it's good. Let's say you randomly edit an article and fix the references section or move an image so it complies with WP:MOS. You get reverted with "better before". You go to the talk page and explain that your edit is in accordance to the MOS. The response is "Misplaced Pages:Ignore all rules. It was better before." This goes against the idea of WP:CONSENSUS. This is addressed in WP:STONEWALL, WP:SILENCE, and WP:STEWARDSHIP. The revert effectively ignores your policy or guideline-backed attempt to improve Misplaced Pages in favor of a non-policy or non-guideline "status quo", which is meaningless. BrightRoundCircle (talk) 13:40, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

One could possibly pick a worse example, but MOS is regularly of controversy, and if you want the MOS to not be, and brook no disagreement, you actually have to raise MOS to 1)policy and 2) Core content policy, at that (not fiddle with this policy). Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:09, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

So whenever MOS is put into question it should just be disregarded? BrightRoundCircle (talk) 14:15, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

I can be discussed, it's obviously no emergency. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:19, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Naturally. And one editor says "per MOS" and the other says "per status quo". BrightRoundCircle (talk) 14:20, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

WP:DR is your answer. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:23, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

In a dispute where one editor follows a guideline and another follows "status quo", the resolution should be the one that's supported by the guideline, not the one where a stubborn editor preserves the status quo that they created. This goes back to what you said about MOS. "So what if it's a guideline? I have my preferred style, clearly backed by the status quo (which I created)." BrightRoundCircle (talk) 14:32, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Come, now. This, 'I am in all ways (and always) right', and 'They are in all ways (and always) wrong', is just not how many MOS issues work, and it's not how consensus works. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:07, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

That's the question I'm trying to answer, though. If there is no consensus (or a consensus through silence, or through editing) for a "stable version", and the "stable version" is disputed, then for a time until a consensus-through-discussion is established the guidelines and policies should reflect the consensus of the community. It doesn't make sense that an article can by default not follow the MOS because it's a "stable version" that has never actually had consensus, while the MOS, even if controversial and contentious, should count for more than "stable version" which isn't a part of editing guidelines or policies (except for article titles). BrightRoundCircle (talk) 11:00, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

• I see arguments like this all the time... and it usually comes down to a disagreement over which language actually has consensus (with editors who support one version or the other claiming that their preferred version has consensus). What people forget is that it is quite possible that neither version has a true consensus. it is possible for the "status quo" language to drop from consensus... and yet... no replacement language to have gained consensus either. In other words... the consensus is still in flux, and requires further discussion. Blueboar (talk) 13:57, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Of course there's no "true consensus" but I'm talking about, for example, moving an image so it's in line with MOS. Guidelines are a better reflection of consensus than "status quo". BrightRoundCircle (talk) 14:17, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

In my opinion this comes down to the question: What is a guideline and what exactly is its proper role in Misplaced Pages editing? Every editor has an answer that they feel is the obvious correct answer, but there is no clear community consensus on the question. For every p&g fragment that appears to support Position A, there are others that appear to support Positions B and C. And we all cherry-pick from that mess depending on which Position we favor. Thus discussions like this can't really be resolved because there is no foundation. I've found that en-wiki is very good at creating situations like this and allowing them to persist forever. My Position: If argument about something like this persists for years, what's obvious is that there is no clear community consensus about it. Stop arguing, confront the foundational question, form that clear community consensus, and get it down in clear writing as policy. I call my position "First Things First". ―Mandruss ☎ 19:46, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Policy is rather overloaded; why not get it down in writing as guideline? That works (usually) for MOS, for example, except sometimes editors come along who just like to ignore guidelines. Dicklyon (talk) 03:54, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

I agree. What is a guideline? Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines says "policies and guidelines are intended to reflect the consensus of the community". In an editing dispute, when someone is appealing to "stable version" they're justifying their edit because it's already there, while it should be justified according to consensus, or guidelines and policies which are intended to reflect consensus. BrightRoundCircle (talk) 11:12, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

sometimes editors come along who just like to ignore guidelines - Excellent illustration of the problem I describe. You say they "just like to ignore guidelines". I say you and they have different views of the proper role of guidelines in Misplaced Pages editing. And I say there should be one Misplaced Pages view on that, not several. It should be formed by clear community consensus that directly confronts the question, not in one local skirmish after another, indefinitely, with differing views about what those outcomes mean in the big picture. Once that clear consensus is established in writing, persistent argument and editing against it is clear, blockable disruption, and so most of it would end. My guess is that nobody wants to do that because they don't want to risk being on the losing side of that community consensus.
Sorry to the OP, I seem to have sidetracked their discussion. It's my way to look at underlying issues and root causes, I can't help it. No offense taken if you want to collapse this digression or otherwise refactor. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:19, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Actually that is the very issue I'm trying to address. This is the sort of dispute which I find problematic. A bold edit is done in accordance to policies or guidelines, and it's reverted, and the dispute is discussed in order to reach consensus. So far so good. One editor appeals to "stable version", meaning it's already there so consensus, guidelines, and policies don't matter. BrightRoundCircle (talk) 11:42, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Well the only chance of improvement is a widely-advertised discussion, at WP:VPP, to answer the foundational question. And I would give that about a 20% chance of producing a clear consensus, due to inertia and the extreme difficulty of forming a clear consensus on such a large and complex question. I think this would have been easier in the early years, when there was far less inertia and entrenchment. (My thoughts about Misplaced Pages tend to oscillate between hope and cynicism, and I am always at battle with myself about them. The hope part is what keeps me around.) ―Mandruss ☎ 12:05, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Well, said, though I think the odds of success are approaching zero. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:19, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

I agree, and it's always fun to see how remarkably easy it was to create Misplaced Pages policies whole-cloth in 2006–2007 with little or no consensus, and how now even a change like "put a bullet point how 'stable version' is not a valid revert reason" is so contentious that it has no hope of making it into policy, when there are already policy pages saying that, albeit not directly. BrightRoundCircle (talk) 16:31, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

I think that when you have a dispute like that, going meta on it like you're doing in this section is seldom helpful. Better to discuss the interpretation of the relevant guideline at the article talk page and/or the talk page where the guideline is. Dicklyon (talk) 14:46, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

That dispute is from a year ago, it was merely given as an example. The very reason I didn't give examples at the beginning is because I find people always dish out "well you shouldn't have come here to resolve your content dispute", when that's not what the discussion is about... BrightRoundCircle (talk) 16:31, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

e/c

And make effective use of WP:DR. See also the part about not answering basic questions at WP:DISRUPTSIGNS. It's a royal PITA and makes wiki un-fun, which is a one of many reasons we bleed editors. But that's what I do, since we don't have a culture that embraces your view of the world. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 16:32, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

When is discussion unacceptable?

Under what circumstances is it unacceptable to discuss an issue which has consensus? Siuenti (talk) 13:11, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

There is no one-size-fits-all answer due to the number of variables, so the question is best addressed locally in article talk (especially where there is high activity by a number of experienced, good-faith editors). ―Mandruss ☎ 13:16, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Can you provide an example of a situation where it would be unacceptable? Siuenti (talk) 13:19, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

No, I couldn't get specific as to anything that should be applied community-wide. As I said, it should be up to local consensus. In my view many minor issues are not worth the time it takes to resolve them, and they divert limited time from more important things. But that's my opinion, and I defer to local consensus. We might as well disclose that this is about a difference of opinion at Talk:Donald Trump. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:28, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

So it is unacceptable to discuss an issue when there is local consensus not to discuss it? Siuenti (talk) 13:41, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Discussion does not mean change. Change can be held in abeyance while discussion takes place. Bus stop (talk) 13:47, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

I don't think there is any such circumstance, but discussion is required to take place within the confines of our guidelines. Bus stop (talk) 13:37, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

If a massive amount of editor time is spent forming a consensus on a single sentence, I think the locals should be allowed to say, "This sentence is good enough and we're not going to talk about it again for quite some time." The benefit of further discussion should always be weighed against its cost. We should always remember that editor time is a finite and limited resource and there is never enough time to address everything. If the "rules" are not consistent with that, they should be amended; nothing in set in stone. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:40, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Examples

• When an editor has been topic banned
• When an editor passes from collaboration into the realm of WP:DISRUPTSIGNS, WP:Tendentious editing, etc.
• When the discussion is not about article improvement but wanders off into WP:SOAP and WP:FORUM
• When you're at article talk and start talking to me even though there's a consensus that I'm a terrible ass and deserve a thrashing (see WP:FOC)

Question, what inspired this question? Is there a specific situation you are involved in?

NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 16:37, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

If I may presume to speak for the OP, I'm fairly certain it's the current dispute about whether one word, "current", should be added to the first sentence at Donald Trump. Positions are "No", "Yes", and "Important things are being neglected because people keep insisting on revisiting the first sentence after it has been massively discussed." There is significant support for the latter position, on that and other items that have received sufficient discussion to leave them alone for quite awhile (which is not to say forever, although some editors insist on straw-manning the position in that way). ―Mandruss ☎ 16:53, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

So yeah, the proposal is to prohibit discussion of this sentence. Siuenti (talk) 16:56, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

The policy is already in your favor: WP:CCC: "proposing to change a recent consensus can be disruptive.". Mandruss can give their impartial third opinion and whenever someone wants to change that sentence you can say "it has been massively discussed ." If the editor keeps insisting, remind them that such behavior is considered WP:DISRUPTIVE. Repeat until "" does not apply. BrightRoundCircle (talk)

Excellent point, and I think the definition of "recent" can and should be a matter of local consensus. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:02, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

So the editors of that page form a consensus about how long not to talk about the topic? Siuenti (talk) 17:22, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

It is kind of exceptional, but indeed this can happen (compare, for example, Talk:Sarah Jane Brown/Archive 8#Proposal: Another moratorium – in this case the agreed upon period not to talk about a certain topic again, a.k.a. moratorium, was one year). Note however, that in case of WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, such moratorium can easily be overridden by a different consensus from the wider community, so the moratorium period is best agreed via RfC or some other high-level procedure. Otherwise, anything happening before the relevant real life situation situation changes, or before there is a relevant in-Misplaced Pages shift in how policies and guidelines are usually applied, will usually be considered "recent". And even then, if some months have passed, a new gauging of whether or not consensus has changed may be frowned upon but is not necessarily impossible. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:32, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

At that article we've spent a lot of time repeatedly debating this issue, which means that we have largely replaced one distraction with another. I'm still working on a solution to that one. That article may need some kind of "meta-consensus", but I'm not sure what that needs to look like. I'm not even thinking about what happens at other articles; they are free to adopt our methods, develop other methods, or continue with business as usual. These things grow organically and eventually one method might become the standard, similar to a widely-accepted essay. The only thing I'm certain of is that resistance to change is never good for the project. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:43, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

e/c

@BrightRoundCircle/Siuenti, per the wording of the WP:CCC policy, I would tweak BRC's advice above as follows... you can remind them that "such behavior is consideredcan be disruptive". Whether a specific example falls on the disruptive side of the subjective line, is.... well.... subjective. In this example an argument in favor of the localconsenus is that important other material is being overlooked/unattended to. So if the article and talk page go quiet for several days that may no longer be the case. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 17:50, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

I want to be clear. I'm not asking when things like requested moves or RfCs can be placed under a WP:Moratorium so you can't request a move or request comments or whatever. I'm asking when you can't even talk about the title or the thing you think should change. Siuenti (talk) 18:29, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

A WP:RM moratorium usually includes not being able to talk about the topic (in this case: the article title of the article) in any guise on the article talk page for the indicated period. So, I don't know what kind of a distinction you're trying to make: "moratorium" = "not possible to talk about the topic falling under the moratorium on the talk page, not even indirectly, neither can the topic be discussed or implied on any other page". We just call that situation "moratorium" in order not to have to repeat the long sentence every time. --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:00, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

OK, sorry I didn't get that. I have updated the page to clarify. Siuenti (talk) 19:42, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

• 1. unless Wikipedians start applying that guidance widely different from how it is applied nowadays, and, different in an opposite direction of what the current discussions at the Trump talk page would result in, that last discussion would be "recent" enough to foreclose any new discussion on the same topic till the end of Trump's term.
  2. --Francis Schonken (talk) 20:48, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

     So whether the current discussions result in "consensus to change", "no consensus", or "consensus not to change", any further discussion will be disruptive? Siuenti (talk) 21:26, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

     Not exactly: the policy wording is "... can be disruptive". Which means you'd need a consensus to determine whether it "is" disruptive in a particular instance. So, if what you perceive as continued disruption at the Trump talk page is not generally seen as the same by (most of) the editors at the Trump talk page, then take it for instance to WP:ANI, and ask an admin to stop what you perceive as disruption. A consensus will form one way or another (it might backfire if the general perception at that other place is that this is no disruption, or if one would go there too soon, and the reporting elsewhere is seen as WP:FORUMSHOPping). --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:45, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

     Still some other suggestion: a new discussion about something that has been recently discussed a few times, each time with the same outcome, can be WP:SNOW-closed (I've done a few of such SNOW-closes, also some of them where I was (semi-)involved in the previous discussions), which is usually less cumbersome than ANI or AE (or similar dramaboard-)proceedings. I looked at the current discussions at the Trump talk page. I nearly applied such a SNOW close to the latest RfC on that page, but couldn't find a recent formally closed & broad/wide (i.e. at least RfC or similar) discussion about the exact same topic, so maybe best to let that RfC run its course for some time now. Alternatively, give a link to a discussion on the same topic that is (1) Recent (a few months at most); (2) Broad (broadly and neutrally advertised and/or on a high visibility page), and (3) Formally closed (as opposed to petered out on a de facto status quo, after which a new cycle of reverts fired up) – in which case we can see whether a SNOW close is possible, and someone willing to implement it. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:07, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

     FYI: here is an example of such a SNOW close (in this instance called "procedural close") if I was unclear what I meant by that. And here is an example of another SNOW close. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:24, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

     So seems that someone who thinks a topic should no longer be discussed could request WP:CLOSURE of that topic. Siuenti (talk) 18:23, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Influence of personal opinions

The following essays address which arguments can be discounted: WP:arguments to avoid in deletion discussions, WP:Arguments to avoid on discussion pages, and others at Template:Arguments. However, in some discussions, where rules are not mentioned (i.e. absent) in arguments, people may rely on personal opinions to explain their votes. How would personal opinions (of any kind) influence consensus? --George Ho (talk) 09:07, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• Where there are no rules, personal opinions are paramount. Let me clarify that a bit:
  1. It rarely happens that when there is a rule that applies without room for interpretation, that in that case a talk page discussion would still be necessary. So, generally, except for talk page discussions that should be WP:SNOW closed, there's always the wiggle room for interpretation of the rules. I don't very well see how a Wikipedian would voice their interpretation of applicable rules on a talk page without such interpretation being a personal opinion.
  2. Let me give an example of a discussion where the influence of iron-clad rules is minimal: currently at Talk:Johann Sebastian Bach#images we're trying to figure out which illustrations to use on the Bach article, and how to format and position such illustrations. There are some rules (e.g. MOS:SANDWICHING has been mentioned in that discussion), but however it is turned most of the basis for making these choices is, I'm sure, an implied striving for good taste by the participants in the discussion. There are no "rules" that directly say which images and audio examples to use (and which ones to exclude), so the larger part of the discussion boils down to personal opinion, with which to build the consensus for what will be displayed in mainspace.

--Francis Schonken (talk) 10:39, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• A lot of opinions boil down to I like (or not), which is little more than a thumbs up/down poll....so see also WP:Polling is not a substitute for discussion; Among other things, whoever closes discussions is not supposed to just count up Y/N opinions, but instead give greatest weight to reasoning. Is there a specific issue that makes you ask the question? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 11:59, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
  • The difference between "voting" and "!voting" has little or nothing to do with whether or not personal opinion gets mixed in. Both votes and !votes can be based in applicable guidance and in personal opinion (and indeed, both a vote and a !vote will usually be based in available guidance and some opinion on how such rules should apply to the case). Same for reasoning: a reasoning may be built on rules and/or personal opinion (and also here: most likely on both, i.e. the personal opinion about how rules apply). A closer of a discussion assesses the "soundness" of the reasonings: the weight of a reasoning built on policy may be low (while the reasoning linking the case to the policy may be tenuous), and a reasoning built an common sense may be given greater weight (even if no guidance is quoted). But supporting NAEG's question on where the initiative for this talk page topic originated? --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:30, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
    • For the many questions not covered in p&g, closers don't spend the mental calories weighing strength of arguments, separating the wheat from the chaff, discounting straw man arguments, and so on. Even if they did, the result would be largely determined by their own inevitable biases. A closer who closes against the numbers is usually begging for a fight. And people's minds are very rarely changed in discussions because very few people debate with open minds. Thus, in practice, issues not covered in p&g amount to democratic votes. In those cases discussion serves only to protect the illusion of NOTDEMOCRACY, and the discussion could be foregone with the same outcome. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:03, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
      • On the other hand:
        1. There is rarely ever a poll that has no p&g angle whatsoever. E.g. there's nothing so subjective as a style issue like positioning images in an article, nonetheless (as I illustrated above) that doesn't imply that there are no applicable rules at all.
        2. Even if there's little or no p&g angle (and the !vote mostly boils down to personal opinions), explaining your opinion in a !vote may influence the opinions of other !voters (it wouldn't be the first time that someone modifies a !vote, after another participant clearly worded the reasons for their opinion).

      Example of a poll which the closer had closed on what the "majority" (66%) wanted, and which was later overturned for not taking the soundness of the reasonings into account. Further, I think that the question of whether or not Misplaced Pages is a democracy is somewhat different from what the OP is asking. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:47, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

      • Case in point, a discussion about an image. One of our guidelines says that images should not be too dark. Editor A says that the image is too dark and cites the guideline. Editor B says that the image is not too dark. Does Editor A have the stronger argument because they cited the guideline? I think not. And closers are not inherently authorities on image darkness. So that's a vote disguised as a !vote, and we could have skipped the discussion. ―Mandruss ☎ 14:01, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
        • Did you even read the above? Every !voting procedure is, to a certain extent, a mixture of opinions and applicability of guidance: so in your example, after the "not too dark" argument has been launched other !voters may (re)assess the hue of the image, and let their opinion be influenced by it. Whether in some instances "votes" and "!votes" are seemingly identical is not the topic here. But I agree that "personal opinion" plays a role in Misplaced Pages's current !voting procedures, and that that role is probably even bigger than generally assumed. But that's not the same as saying that in many cases !voting procedures can be replaced by plain votes. --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:16, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
          • (This particular indentation system baffles me. I don't know why simple colons per WP:THREAD wouldn't suffice, and I believe the guidance says that bullets are only for lists (AfDs, RfC survey sections, and the like), not open, free-form discussion such as this.) Well we may both be guilty of not hearing the other. I said, "And people's minds are very rarely changed in discussions because very few people debate with open minds." In that case, let their opinion be influenced by it does not apply, except to whatever extent people read existing discussion before they !vote AND let their opinion be influenced by it. In my opinion that is not common enough to have a significant effect. If you do it, good for you. I sometimes read before I !vote, depending on how much there is to read, and my mind is always open and it changes during discussion perhaps 5% of the time. I'm fairly certain we're both in small minorities, and I tend to think in terms of what is, not what would be in a better world. ―Mandruss ☎ 14:32, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
            • Still, tangent (I mean to the OP's question).

            → Talk:Frédéric Chopin/Archive 16#Image options: discussion where "too dark" was one of many arguments (don't think a plain vote could have replaced that discussion).

            → Re. "I sometimes read before I !vote, depending on how much there is to read, and my mind is always open and it changes during discussion perhaps 5% of the time." – Here is a !vote with multiple reassessed !votes (not even counting what can't be counted, i.e. people not changing their !vote due to reading what was already there before they added their opinion... although many say something like "per " so one can assume they read at least something). So speak for yourself please, I'm fairly certain I'm not in a "small minority" as far as my !voting behaviour is concerned. And the minority you confess yourself to belong to is imho not enough to change current practice. But as said, again, this is fairly unrelated to the OP's question afaics. --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:18, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

            So speak for yourself please - LOL. Are you speaking only for yourself, or applying your subjective perception of the whole? This is where I get off. Thanks. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:31, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

In this whole thread I never contended I was unable to handle "personal opinion" in wiki-discussions. On the contrary, I contended subjective appreciation is one of the key components of any meaningful wiki-discussion. Which, as I implied in my first contribution to this thread, has little or nothing to do with the difference between "votes" and "!votes". --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:48, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

(ec) Further illustrating what I tried to explain above:

A !vote in an AfD may be formulated as follows:

• Delete – I guess this person will be completely forgotten in a few weeks, and if not, we can still revive the article then. --(sig)

Such a !vote is formulated as a personal opinion. Taken literally the reasoning is even questionable in view of the WP:NOTCRYSTAL policy (we should not let mainspace content be ruled by personal speculations about the future).

Another editor might write:

• Delete – WP:BLP1E --(sig)

Not much of a reasoning in that short !vote... so technically this could be ignored by the closer of the AfD. An intelligent AfD closer would however see that both the first "personal opinion" !vote and the second !vote with not much of a reasoning are in fact essentially the same, and equally valid (thus with similar weight in the discussion, if indeed the subject of the AfD'd article is only known for one event at that point in time). --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:18, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Hmm, this policy we are on asks people to appeal to what it calls "common sense" and "reason" - one person's "common sense" or "reason" will sometimes be another's "personal opinion", we simply can't ban people from putting forward their ideas of "reason" or "common sense" (such a thing would be impossible). Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:29, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

We often see, in RM discussions about capitalization, a desire from a few people to capitalize things that are mostly not capitalized in sources (that is, not even close to our guideline criterion of "consistently capitalized in sources"). I think these are just "opinions", but they're dressed up as if they support some kind of criterion such as "clarity", or "common sense" (or sometimes just an appeal to "ignore all rules"). Sometimes such opinions get seconded (as here with no apparent reason). In an outlier extreme case at Talk:Cross-City_Line#Requested_move_11_February_2017, nobody came along to support the guideline-based proposal, and several supported the opinion that was based on nothing but an affinity for the topic. Can't blame a closer for that, when nothing but baseless opinion is offered; if some editors would offer something other than opinion, then some kind of weighting would be able to make sense of it. Dicklyon (talk) 15:51, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

I'd just like to thank everyone for their opinions above. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:11, 29 March 2017 (UTC)