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This article is part of WikiProject Gender studies. This WikiProject aims to improve the quality of articles dealing with gender studies and to remove systematic gender bias from Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate in the project, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the project page for more information.Gender studiesWikipedia:WikiProject Gender studiesTemplate:WikiProject Gender studiesGender studies ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. To-do list: Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Assess : see Unassessed Gender studies articles and Unknown-importance Gender studies articles Cleanup : edit to see Collaborate : see /Collaboration Copyedit : edit to see Deletion sorting : see /Sexuality and gender Expand : edit to see Infobox : see Gender studies articles needing infoboxes Merge : edit to see Notability : edit to see NPOV : edit to see Orphans : Brannon Masculinity Scale · Holy Virility · Media and gender · Michael Kaufman (author) · Women's education in Saudi Arabia Photo : see Misplaced Pages requested photographs of gender studies Split : History of feminism Stubs : see Gender studies stubs Translate : see /translation Update : edit to see Verify : Riot grrrl Needs attention : see Gender studies articles needing attention

No, Ma'am

What about the group "No Ma'am" from the American television show Married With Children? VarunRajendran

recent edits

I've just done a major rework of the article. It now has a structure (which I am happy to admit is debatable, e.g. I think a history section would be nice). I also included a lot of critical positions, which lacked in the article. I feel it now has a good balance of men's rights concerns and their critics issues. I've deleted some of the links in the external link section, just because there were too many. I tried to take out redundant ones that didn't look very authoritative in the first place and those that are already in the article. Still, the link section needs more cleanup and could use some more good critical links. I hope you like my edit. bastel 06:13, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

This is a useful page outlining some major concerns raised by the Men's Movement. This movement consists of multiple organizations in the US, Canada, UK, continental Europe, Australia and New Zealand (to name just those of which I am personally aware). Because of the breadth of organisations that campaign for Men's Rights I suggest that the list of Men's Rights Organisations be arranged into sections.

Initially, I have created sections for International/US/Canada and Australia, but if those with knowledge of specific organisations could further divide the first section and add other sections that would be helpful. I have considerable first-hand experience with the Men's Rights movement in Australia, perhaps others could put up their hands with similar experience in other countries, so we can extend the information included here. Thanks everyone. -Akiva Quinn 02:45, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Great work on the link collection. It is, however, overburdening the artcle. I'd suggest moving it to a List of Men's rights organizations site. Also, the article needs structural reworking, cf. Misplaced Pages:How to write a great article, e.g. a lead section, somewhat longer paragraphs (some critical voices would be nice to).bastel 03:17, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

POV

Not sure about this, but it seems this page has a subtle POV to it.

e.g. "This can lead to the mistaken perception that such measures are anti-women."

I'm sure there are feminist groups out there who will argue that most of the claims made about discrimination again men are either false, blown out of all proportion, or fair. (note I'm not taking a stance on this issue). In saying that such perceptions are mistaken, wikipedia is taking sides in this dispute. Morwen - Talk 12:55, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

• a subtle POV is a very nice way of putting it: The Men's rights movement is viewed critically by major parts of the population and (even more so) academia. There's none of that in the article except for the above quoted. If anyone finds the time to fix this?bastel 03:12, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

"Many men's groups just represent abusive bullies and violent dangerous men. Many violent men expect all other men to support abusive men. Numerous self priclaimed "men's groups" just represent a pro violence agenda supporting domestic abuse, bullying, and glamorization of abusive men." Seems to be cited from some random uk site - www.lonympics.co.uk/new/ZMensgroups.htm. The ranting author uses horrible english, even for a brit: "And no this is not a joke if you thjink this is a joke you are rerally dangerous, and are toaly in need to being thorwn in jail for a life. Yet i know for a fact some shithead will act like i have sopmehting toally teffrriing or illogicla just because i ghave psone out again abuse. The next minute thos scum, will be beating their opwn wife face in." I hardly think this qualifies as a valid encyclopedic contribution. Any qualified professionals out there want to confirm my suspicions? --69.158.50.199 10:18, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Men's rights?

I'm a man and I find this laughable to say the least. Discrimination against men is extremely rare (or perhaps non-existent), compared to discrimination against women. Women's rights is a valid term, this is not. There is not one society that discriminates against men. There are many that discriminate against women. Feel free to debate me, but I will win the argument, because you will not be able to back up your claims. Revolución 04:18, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Whether I or others agree with you or not is irrelevant; talk pages are used to discuss issues with the article. Some would perceive your statement above to be incorrect and these people have created a seperate movement -- this is factual. Whether their claims are legitimate or not is for the article to discuss in an NPOV manner -- talk pages are not soapboxes. Thanks Dysprosia 09:26, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

NPOV January 2006

{{POV}}

I frequently feel that the NPOV tag is used as a sort of drive-by vandalism, so I plan to stick around through this one, and initially I got here through a redirect so perhaps I am a off-base. That being said, if one is going to assert the existence of a "men's rights" or "men's movement" analogous to the feminist movement, this article misses on a few key points. Among the major flavors I see which should be addressed are

• Daddy rights: issues of special concern to men, mostly around divorce and family law
  
• Gay rights movement: including the huge gains made by men regarding civil liberties for homosexuals
  
• Pro-feminist men: who support the feminist movement but wish to do so from a masculine position
  
• Mythopoetic men: such as the Jungian archetype folks and readers of Robert Bly's Iron John
  

This article seems almost entirely about #1 with a vague nod toward #3, but completely ignoring other areas which might be considered part of the broader "men's movement" over the last 20 or so years. Comments? Rorybowman 05:46, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Father's rights v Masculism v "masculist"

So what is exactly the difference between the advocates of father's rights (FR) and masculism? Is it the purely family law focus of father's rights? Do the FR folk want to insert themselves into abortion? Is any father who asserts he should have more say in something that vaguelly involves the law an FR activist? I'm not seeing a clear distinction or explanation here, and think that such clarification would help with NPOV appreciably. Rorybowman 03:30, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Reading both articles, masculism appears a more scholarly movement whereas fathers' rights has been more a reaction to feminism and the changing demands on men to engage with their children (the private sphere). Related but not the same. The fathers' rights article needs a fair bit of work.

Probably all of Fathers' rights, Masculism, Mythopoetic, Pro-feminism (referring to men) could be related to each other better. -- Paul foord 05:54, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

under the section on The Movements Structure it states "The men's rights movement is often equated with the masculist movement, but although there is some overlap, large parts of both movements strongly dispute this equation." I expect the same for father's rights and masculism. -- Paul foord 06:32, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Paul! It was when I started to look into the structure section that I started to run into serious questions about where the line fell. Although Warren Farrell has famously claimed to be a feminist and a masculist, a Google search on masculist brings up a number of clearly anti-feminist and misogynistic views more in line with pater familias. Checking out the article on masculist the only substantive reference was Bax, whose "masculist" work such as Fraud of Feminism is clearly misogynistic, which I found when I tried to find links to his work to add to the Bax bio page. My choice of the top-article phrase about "legal forms which unnaturally favor women" (emphasis mine) is because most of the Google hits for masculist clearly do indicate a strong sense of biological difference, most notably this fellow. My concern is not that there are a few man-haters who call themselves feminists (which there are, to the annoyance of most who call themselves feminists) as that the phrase "masculist" and "masculism" has little use as a distinction from "father's rights" and the distinction it does have is mostly toward either obscuring or trying to distance the real differences on abortion and other civil rights issues. At this point in usage it seems to me that "father's rights" (which some would argue includes veto power regarding abortion) and "masculist" are used differently. Here in the United States similar issues are usually expressed in a sort of linguistic code with phrases such as "ethnic pride" (for the general use) and "White pride" (for racist usage). It seems to me good to clarify the family law focus versus the gender role focus (which also tends to be against gay rights) in an article on men's rights.

Should the article just admit that the phrase "men's rights" is hopelessly vague and point to the more distinctive branches such as civil rights, gay rights and father's rights. I first got here from an ill-advised redirect from men's movement, for example. Decreasing this section's prominence to favor more specific articles may be the better part of valor. What do you think? Rorybowman 16:08, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Men's movement is now introduction to this

Paul foord 05:39, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Paul! The men's movement article is a very nice framing. How does the subject of this article men's rights differ from father's rights? Is this article a general discussion of the legal rights of men? The extension of human rights or civil rights to a wider category of men? The philosophical extension of those in democratic thought such as Thomas Paine's essay Rights of Man? Certainly the move away from men's rights being the family law rights of father's is a great improvement, but should this article be phased out and content moved more into the separate articles on masculism, father's rights, etcetera? Rorybowman 07:00, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

General men's movement intro stuff here should probably go to men's movement, material related to the 4 streams either to there or the specific article. This page should probably then be made a redirect to Fathers' rights but only after that article is pared down/broken up/sorted out. -- Paul foord 07:40, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Merge proposal - from Fathers' rights

This is a better article, and Fathers' rights are intrinsic to men's rights. During merge a number of the extended discussipons in the Father's rights article should be moved, for example, the extended discussion on UK law to Fathers' rights movement in the UK where it is appropriate. -- Paul foord 22:12, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Against: These issues are not general MEN's issues, but specific FATHER issues. Whether masculist or merely a matter of family law, these men are working on behalf of biological fathers, not of men generally. This is trebly the case in issues of custody and abortion. To conflate the limited interests of fathers with the general issue of men is confusing, and arguably deceptive. While a rhetorical coup for its proponents (just ask any anti-feminist woman about "women's rights") I think it is imprecise. Fathers' rights is the more precise term and should be retained as more specific. Rorybowman 23:03, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Don't Merge: Men's rights is civil law. Father's rights is family law. — Dzonatas 01:51, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Not all men are father's. Men's rights and father's rights are separate issues. Perhaps provide a link from one article to the other as the issues are arguable related, but do not merge.

Removed' merge recommendation as concluded in discussion. -- Paul foord 12:19, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Reverts 2006-01-23 Discussion

I just reverted a few deletions of criticisms and references made by two Ohio IP addresses (which I had mistakenly read as a single IP at the time of revert). My rationale is that this set of edits effectively removed criticisms of the movement and references to alternative views of the movement, which seem to merit discussion. The usual custom on this article has been increase the range of views rather than cut them, which seems more in accordance with an NPOV survey of the subject. - Rorybowman 15:48, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

____________ There was a part of this article, that out of the blue said "The man is better than the woman. Always!" just like that. I deleted that section. It had no place at then end of the topic and was clearly put there by some feemenist that wanted to make fun the the topic. Men's studies are a valid topic, men's rights are too.

Or perhaps somebody who actually thinks that men are better than women?

Pro-feminist men

Men who support feminism are generally not advocates of men's rights and should not be referred to in this article as being members of the men's rights movement. They support feminism, clearly not the men's rights movement. NiceguyC 13.47, 16 April 2006 (GMT)

May I just point out that both movements are not absolutely incompatible. It is possible to support, say, for example, equality for women, whilst also supporting equality for men as well. Dysprosia 13:22, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Equality for women equals equality for men. Either you support equality of the sexes or you don't. "Equality for men" as distinct from "equality for women" makes no sense. Most if not all men's rights advocates support equality; in contrast, the "pro-feminist men's movement," as distinct from simply the many men who support feminism, focuses on blaming men for subjugating women and ridiculing men for claiming that any discrimination against men exists. As such, it is not part of the men's rights movement; quite the opposite, it is a force against the men's rights movement. It should definitely not be listed as part of it, and in fact as it stands the article contradicts itself by pointing out the criticisms this group of so-called "pro-feminist men" have of the men's rights movement. Blackworm 12:40, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Blatent and disingenious POV vandalism

FAr too much of this (especially the violence section) is introduced by "critics say..." far roo much ids contested, unreferanced, and projective.

Before I go in slashing, and perhaps many of the "(for example-long drawn out unsubstantiated referance)" might be footnoted and cited. The vandalism and intelectual dishonesty is clear to me.

At this point I can only pray that the offenders subscribe to "watch this site" and will repair this, before the validity challanges start slapping up. I have no qualms about editing large chunks that clearly serve as projection and redefinition.

This chunk is a blatent illistration;

"Further they cite statistics suggesting that of reported assaults by a partner, men are more likely to call the police, press charges, and keep them than women (Schwartz, 1987; Rouse et.al; 1988; Kincaid; 1982). More still the National Institute of Justice Report on Intimate Violence states that: Men living with male intimate partners experience more intimate partner violence than do men who live with female intimate partners. Approximately 23 percent of the men who had lived with a man as a couple reported being raped, physically assaulted, and/or stalked by a male cohabitant, while 7.4 percent of the men who had married or lived with a woman as a couple reported such violence by a wife or female cohabitant. These findings, combined with those presented in the previous bullet, provide further evidence that intimate partner violence is perpetrated primarily by men, whether against male or female intimates.

Further, critics accuse men's rights advocates of defending male abuse, often by alleging it is justified due to a perceived "unfairness" men face, and even rallying behind abusers. For example, a spokesman for The Men’s Confraternity, after a Perth man gassed to death his three children and himself in 1998 after his visitation was shortened by Family Court, voiced (perpetrator was) probably a decent, hard-working man who was pushed too far by the Family Court. Critics allege men's rights advocates attribute the violence they concede men do to outside forces and then pre-emptively accuse women who allege abuse by men of lying and scheming. Critics also claim, in regards to abuse women and children allege against men, alarmist exaggeration of false accusations by men's rights advocates and voice they then do not apply the same standards to the numbers of male (by female) victims men's rights activists claim exist. Critics contend that this attitude also does existing male victims of domestic abuse a disservice.

I did correct some spelling typos and weasle insinuations.--CaptDMO 16:45, 4 August 2006 (UTC)CaptDMO

The problem is the entire article needs clean-up, citations, and context. Look at this-

From employment:

“They also assert sexual harassment policies are de facto directed against the male style of inappropriate sexual behaviour in the workplace, while ignoring the female style of inappropriate behaviour in the workplace (eg: wearing sexually revealing clothing, offering sexual favours in exchange for promotion or raises, etc.).”

Alright who in particular, where are the complaints and do all the complaints fairly represent what all MRAs feel?

“They express anger towards the fact that a man telling a joke or simply referring to a co-worker by a nickname is grounds for dismissal and/or lawsuits.”

Who in the MRM and what are the examples they cite? I get that it is worded as “assert”, but then you can’t expect the criticisms section to be of such higher standard.

About Sexual harassment polices being directed at men. Things like this are repeated big time amongs a lot of the MRM blogs and sites. Indeed it made it big time in Thomas Ellis book "Rantings of a single male" Rhythmic01 04:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

“Advocates frequently cite statistical evidence to support their claims of discrimination against men.”

What particular MRAs?

The most frequently cited statistics are:

Then there are bullet-points of what the cited statistics are for, yet no actual statistics/sources or who actually provided them or conducted the studies.

I have them for two. I can add them into the main article.

• in recent years, girls have tended to perform better at all educational levels

http://165.224.221.98/programs/quarterly/vol_2/2_2/q6-1.asp

• Suicide rates are dramatically higher for men and boys of all age groups.

http://health.utah.gov/opha/publications/hsu/9903suicide.pdf

Rhythmic01 04:50, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Appreciated but shouldn't we verify if that is considered original research? NeoApsara 14:42, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean by original reseach? Rhythmic01 00:40, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Incarceration-

“Though America is home to less than 5% of the world’s population (est. 298 million of 6.5 billion people), America incarcerates almost 40% of the world’s inmate population (about 2.1 million v. 5.5 million prisoners). Therefore, America imprisons over 800% more men than the world imprisons men. About 95% of prisoners are men.”

This is really just a statement that fits in some incarceration in the United States section? What are they trying to say? That too many men are in jail and we need to let them go? That we should put more women in jail to even it out and be fair? Shouldn’t there be a citation or link actually explaining the context or contention that is held with this?NeoApsara 21:12, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this one here however, I don't understand what the above has to do with mens rights. It really should be either redone to make the point and context clear or just be taken off the page completly.

For now, I'll take it off because I just don't know what to do with it. It will remain here on the talk page were somebody to better contextualize it though. NeoApsara 14:42, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Notice of reversion coming up

This article has had a large number of edits by one person in the past 3 days. Essentially, the effect has been to push an advertisement in the middle of the page, and to do some really odd formatting. I'm reverting those changes, back to the version by Yakuman on 3 September 2006. -- ArglebargleIV 03:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Why is this artical being overhauled by a feminist.

This is the most ridiculous thing I've seen on wikipedia!!! Someone should look into this!!! Mjal 18:44, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

There is no restriction that you have to subscribe to a certain point of view just to edit an article -- that would be ridiculous. Getting editors with different points of views helps to attain NPOV, not detract from it. Dysprosia 10:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Men's rights are still in the Dark Ages

The article illustrates the illogical garbage passing for "criticism" of Men's Rights:

In defense of women (all emphasis mine):

"In the majority of these cases , the women act in response to physical or psychological provocations or threats."

But not a defense for men (again, emphasis mine):

"Further, critics accuse men's rights advocates of defending male abuse, , and even rallying behind abusers. Critics allege men's rights advocates attribute the violence they concede men do to outside forces "

Outside forces, like psychological provocations?

The fact is that the double-standard is so ingrained in our society that the average person wouldn't even see the contradiction and the hypocrisy. I recommend adding a rebuttal after these two paragraphs that points out this very contradiction. Blackworm 12:34, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

• Unassessed Gender studies articles
• Unknown-importance Gender studies articles
• WikiProject Gender studies articles