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Shearer dossier section?

The existence of Cody Shearer's dossier is getting more attention, and often in a manner which can confuse people into thinking it's part of this dossier, or a follow-up. I'm not sure there's enough of a story for its own article....yet. It's also part of right-wing conspiracy theories fueled by Nunes.

To prevent confusion and debunk conspiracy theories, and since it is nearly always mentioned in connection with this dossier (Steele did pass it on to the State Department), it deserves mention here in its own section. If it gets more coverage, we can then split it off into its own article. Right now it's a part of reality which deserves a home at Misplaced Pages, and this seems like a logical location.

Some sources:

• Second Trump-Russia dossier being assessed by FBI

• There's a second Trump-Russia dossier

• Nunes Now Planning to Shower America With Memos

• GOP puts Sidney Blumenthal in spotlight

• Devin Nunes is investigating me. Here's the truth.

• GOP Focuses on Russia Allegations That Reached Steele

• Congressional Russia investigators interested in 2nd Trump-Russia dossier

• An operative with ties to the Democratic Party has reportedly been crisscrossing Eastern Europe for months looking for dirt on Trump

• Devin Nunes' Next Memo Could Revive Old Scandals to Obscure Russia Probe

Opinions? -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 19:18, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

References

1. Hopkins, Nick; Kirchgaessner, Stephanie (January 30, 2018). "Second Trump-Russia dossier being assessed by FBI". The Guardian. Retrieved March 1, 2018.
2. Ward, Alex (January 30, 2018). "There's a second Trump-Russia dossier". Vox. Retrieved March 1, 2018.
3. Drum, Kevin (February 4, 2018). "Nunes Now Planning to Shower America With Memos". Mother Jones. Retrieved April 1, 2018.
4. Herb, Jeremy; Borger, Gloria; Gaouette, Nicole (February 7, 2018). "GOP puts Sidney Blumenthal in spotlight". CNN. Retrieved March 1, 2018.
5. Winer, Jonathan M. (February 9, 2018). "Devin Nunes is investigating me. Here's the truth". The Washington Post. Retrieved March 1, 2018.
6. Tau, Byron (February 9, 2018). "GOP Focuses on Russia Allegations That Reached Steele". WSJ. Retrieved March 1, 2018.
7. Siegel, Benjamin; Karl, Jonathan; Turner, Trish (February 9, 2018). "Congressional Russia investigators interested in 2nd Trump-Russia dossier". ABC News. Retrieved March 1, 2018.
8. Mark, Michelle (February 12, 2018). "An operative with ties to the Democratic Party has reportedly been crisscrossing Eastern Europe for months looking for dirt on Trump". Business Insider. Retrieved March 1, 2018.
9. Pierce, Charles P. (February 13, 2018). "Devin Nunes' Next Memo Could Revive Old Scandals to Obscure Russia Probe". Esquire. Retrieved March 1, 2018.

I think there is enough here for a separate section. Reviewing the references: The January 30 Guardian report was the original source and seems to be the basis for other stories; Vox, Mother Jones, and Esquire do not add any new information or independent confirmation, and the Esquire piece is highly opinionated. Additional info from CNN: Republican claims about how the dossier got to Steele. Additional info from WaPo op-ed by Jonathan Winer: confirming that he got the Shearer notes from Blumenthal and passed them to Steele (this is a primary source but valuable IMO). Business Insider confirms Shearer was searching Eastern Europe for dirt on Trump - in other words that his information is independently sourced from Steele’s. The ABC report says the Shearer info is mainly about the sexual allegations and that videos exist in several places. (Israel? How in the world would info like that get from Russia to Israel? That makes me inclined to doubt the whole thing but I guess the FBI is at least looking at it.) Someplace (forget where) said it is raw notes, six pages long, more of a memo than a dossier but that’s what people are calling it. I’d be inclined to skip the ABC, Vox, Mother Jones, and Esquire references and use the others. A section of one to two paragraphs seems to be in order. --MelanieN (talk) 18:04, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

That makes sense. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 19:30, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Not directly on this subject, but the author was allegedly included in a hit list by the FSB . My very best wishes (talk) 21:11, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Cohen in Prague

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article208870264.html BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 00:55, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Mueller has evidence Cohen was in Prague in 2016, confirming part of dossier

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article208870264.html

Seems important.Casprings (talk) 01:06, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Having a private meeting regarding pay off to a hacker is totally ridiculous. Hackers always remain anonymous and have been taking payment in bitcoin.Phmoreno (talk) 01:30, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Phmoreno, try to avoid WP:FORUM. We're discussing RS coverage relevant to a major charge in this article.

My initial impulse when I found and posted the link above was to warn to be cautious and wait for more RS coverage, per NOTNEWS, but now this is blowing up all over the news. TV and major sources are covering it because of its significance. I haven't checked Fox News. They are probably playing something with panda bears and ignoring the story, or, since everyone else is covering it, they'll smother it in spin. A search finds no current coverage from them.

Cohen was very vehement in his denials. To keep your search relevant to this article, use at least these search terms: michael cohen prague dossier. Have fun and bring back what you find from the major RS. Also, this is still too early for content changes, but we may be able to add something very soon. McClatchy is a very RS, but we also need the most major sources, like New York Times, Washington Post, Guardian, BBC. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 02:57, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Reuters is mentioning McClatchy's report. That's big, as they are international. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 03:01, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

This is obviously significant and relevant, and should be covered in this article. More sources:

• Why the question of whether Michael Cohen visited Prague is massively important for Donald Trump, Vox
• Mueller can prove Cohen made secret trip to Prague before the election: report, The Hill
• Michael Cohen Has Been Under Criminal Investigation for Months, Feds Reveal, The Daily Beast

- MrX 🖋 11:23, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Trump Attorney Lied About Prague Trip, Mueller Investigation Reveals, as New Evidence Comes to Light, Newsweek

Sources: Mueller has evidence Cohen was in Prague in 2016, confirming part of dossier, McClatchy

• "If Cohen met with Russians and hackers in Prague as described in the dossier, it would provide perhaps the most compelling evidence to date that the Russians and Trump campaign aides were collaborating."

I'm still a bit concerned that The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Guardian, and BBC haven't mentioned this, AFAIK. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 16:40, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm sure they will within the next 24-48 hours. We can wait until one or both of them pick it up.- MrX 🖋 17:05, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

RECENTISM...and here I am again agreeing with MrX...we should know something soon. 19:20, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

...and agreeing with me. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 20:48, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Now covered by The Washington Post: Michael Cohen’s visiting Prague would be a huge development in the Russia investigation, as well as several other news orgs.- MrX 🖋 20:01, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Quote: "But this contradiction between a clear allegation from the Steele dossier and the assertion that it wasn’t true by Cohen and Trump helped drive the idea that the dossier was broadly discredited shortly after its release. Pick out the Prague trip and nothing that follows could have happened. Put the Prague trip back into the mix? A lot of the other parts of that allegation now become possible. What’s more, it undermines the credibility of those who insisted that the claim was completely without merit." -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 20:57, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

A renewed denial: Trump lawyer Michael Cohen denies traveling to Prague, CBS News -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 20:48, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

• Special counsel has evidence Michael Cohen travelled to Prague-McClatchy, The New York Times (duplication of Reuters) -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 22:06, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

I accept that there is WP:NORUSH but we do not need to wait for New York Times, Washington Post, Guardian, BBC etc or any other "major source". If something is reliably sourced then feel free to include it straight away. Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 22:21, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

I have no objection to adding material now. The story will probably evolve quite a bit starting on Monday.- MrX 🖋 23:38, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

• Mueller has evidence Michael Cohen traveled to Prague, report claims, The Guardian -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 00:33, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Multiple RS are needed for such an extraordinary claim. While it may well be true, we still have our obligations to NPOV, NOTNEWS and RECENTISM. 19:46, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Source list, with refs

Feel free to add more sources to the bottom and I'll format the references. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 02:55, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

• Sources: Mueller has evidence Cohen was in Prague in 2016, confirming part of dossier, McClatchy

• Special counsel has evidence Michael Cohen traveled to Prague: McClatchy, Reuters

• Michael Cohen’s visiting Prague would be a huge development in the Russia investigation, The Washington Post

• Special counsel has evidence Michael Cohen travelled to Prague-McClatchy, The New York Times (duplication of Reuters)

• Mueller has evidence Michael Cohen traveled to Prague, report claims, The Guardian (duplication of Reuters)

• Why the question of whether Michael Cohen visited Prague is massively important for Donald Trump, Vox

• Mueller can prove Cohen made secret trip to Prague before the election: report, The Hill

• Michael Cohen Has Been Under Criminal Investigation for Months, Feds Reveal, The Daily Beast

• Trump Attorney Lied About Prague Trip, Mueller Investigation Reveals, as New Evidence Comes to Light, Newsweek

• Michael Cohen, Once the President’s Trusted Fixer, Emerges as His Greatest Liability, Mother Jones

• Mueller may have evidence corroborating a key dossier allegation about Michael Cohen and Russian collusion, Business Insider

Renewed denial

• Trump lawyer Michael Cohen denies traveling to Prague, CBS News

• Trump's personal lawyer denies report of Prague meeting with Russians during campaign, Politico

• Trump lawyer Cohen denies media report of Prague trip, Reuters

Why did Mueller refer the case to an entirely different law enforcement agency? See Real Clear Politics, the NYTimes, and WaPo. There is still too much up in the air, which makes it speculation; therefore, noncompliant with NOTNEWS and RECENTISM. 21:36, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

The Cohen connection: Next steps

I would like to begin working on text about the Cohen connection as discussed above. Currently, it looks like it would best fit under DNC email hack, leaks, and misinformation, but I'm wondering if it should have its own section, and if so, where?- MrX 🖋 15:06, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure how it could fit there. Is it a different allegation from the dossier which has been discussed in RS, or are you suggesting enlarging the existing content there? Otherwise, maybe the "Denials of specific claims" section? There we have content which is related to the allegations, but not appropriate for addition to the allegations section. Depending on how that section grows, we may end up having to give it a better name or splitting some content off into a new section.

We could even create a section for a cast of characters and put/move relevant content there.

Go ahead and start developing something. That will make the decision easier. Don't let the existing format force the content or cramp your style. You're good at this. Let the RS dictate the content, and we can fit it in somewhere. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 15:20, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

OK.- MrX 🖋 15:22, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

First draft

Michael Cohen's office, home, and hotel were raided by FBI agents acting under a federal search warrant in mid-April 2018. A few days later, McClatchy reported that Robert Mueller's investigators were in possession of evidence that Cohen travelled to Prague in August or September 2016, which would bolster similar claims in 3 of the dossier's 17 reports. According to McClatchy's confidential sources, Cohen travelled to Prague via Germany, a passage which would not have required use of a passport. In reaction, Cohen denied having ever been to Prague, as he had done in his January 2017 denial following the dossier's release.

Thoughts?- MrX 🖋 16:11, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Nice work. Let's see what others think, and also about placement. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 17:20, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

WP:NOTCRYSTALBALL - at least wait until after today's hearing. Read the CBS Report. And here is another from NYTimes. 17:34, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Nothing in the text above predicts or projects any outcome, or other future event. If you're going to cite policy, at least demonstrate a scintilla of understanding of what the policy actually says.- MrX 🖋 17:54, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Pinging Casprings and Emir of Misplaced Pages for their comments on the proposed text.- MrX 🖋 18:31, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

• Comment. I'm uncertain what the source is for "3 of the dossier's 17 reports". Offhand, this seems to be a WP:SYN claim, that should be backed up with a direct citation. Sławomir Biały (talk) 18:46, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
  • We don't need to wait for a hearing if we have reliable sources, but I would also like to know the source for the claim about "3 of the dossier's 17 reports". We are not some OR scoreboard for if this dossier is right or not. Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 19:16, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

@Sławomir Biały: Third paragraph of the Washington Post article.- MrX 🖋 19:23, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

...and Emir of Misplaced Pages - MrX 🖋 19:24, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

I think the WaPo source should be moved up to maintain source-content integrity. The second sentence does not strictly require three sources, so I would leave the WaPo off that. Sławomir Biały (talk) 19:28, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Thanks for highlighting that. The source has the disclaimer "but we hasten to note that these allegations have not been confirmed by The Washington Post." I think we need to be careful with how we word this, but something along the lines of your draft should be included. Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 19:31, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that was the intention of "... which would...". I guess we could add "if true", although I think it's implicit in the current wording.- MrX 🖋 19:37, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

I think that would be an improvement. Sławomir Biały (talk) 22:27, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Well, this got interesting. More interesting, I mean.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:18, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, another piece of the puzzle falls into place. - MrX 🖋 19:20, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

What you're saying in essence when you say "puzzle" is that instead of writing an encyclopedic article, you are hoping all pieces will form a puzzle which is SYNTH and OR using RS as pieces to the puzzle. Not good. 16:23, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Spot on, Atsme. That's exactly what's going on here: editors acting like detectives or investigative reporters. Which is the very definition of OR and SYNTH. Which is most certainly against policy. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 16:30, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

instead of writing an encyclopedic article, you are hoping… Atsme, please assume GF and avoid casting aspersions. O3000 (talk) 17:09, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

In all the hilarious Hannity hoopla, it's been over looked that the judge rejected Cohen's lawyers' restraining order .Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:28, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

• MrX, just for completeness, here is what we already have on this subject in the "Denials of specific claims" section:

On April 13, 2018, McClatchy reported that the Mueller investigation had evidence that Cohen visited Prague in August or early September 2016 by traveling through Germany. The following day, Cohen again denied he has "ever been to Prague".

Maybe some can be salvaged and merged or not. Your "first draft" above might be a good replacement. It covers the subject more thoroughly. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 02:37, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Mueller's spokesperson warned about what some in the media have been publishing: “What I have been telling all reporters is that many stories about our investigation have been inaccurate,” the Mueller spokesperson said." What other sources say about the statement: Business Insider, Daily Caller. Good advice. 12:09, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Maybe Mueller's spokesperson was referring to stories (tales?) in The Washington Times, The Daily Caller, and Business Insider. That would actually make some sense.- MrX 🖋 12:27, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

 Done - I have incorporated the proposed text with the requested modifications.- MrX 🖋 12:21, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Actually, I'm of the mind that this addition is noncompliant with NOTNEWS & RECENTISM. Other editors have questioned it as too soon...and that tells me you need consensus - not just 2 editors making such decisions. 12:54, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

NOTE: CNN report indicates that the Cohen raid had nothing to do with the Trump-Russia probe. There's also the Stormy storm. Adding this info now as an attempt to validate the Steele dossier is speculation. There are also sources that warn about misinformation. If anything, the probe will lead to financial inproprieties, which has nothing to do with the Steele dossier or Russia. Wait until something is confirmed. 13:11, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

That the raid was ostensibly for another purpose is irrelevant. Other editors suggested that it was too soon when it was too soon. Given the increasing, highly reliable sources, too soon is so yesterday. It should not have been removed. O3000 (talk) 13:18, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

I disagree, and have already cited the relevant PAGs. It is rather far-fetched speculation at best. And it's based on what evidence...a primary source that claims Mueller has proof? There is nothing I can find that verifies Mueller has ever released any information about his investigation. This over-inflated article appears more like an attempt to justify the unsubstantiated allegations in the dossier. Worse yet, nothing of substance has been confirmed about the raid, and no one knows why Mueller handed over the Cohen investigation to NY prosecutors. The fact that it is not part of the Mueller probe into Trump-Russia collusion speaks volumes. Sorry, but my perception of this article is that it's one big conspiracy theory because it is based on unsubstantiated allegations, speculation and rumor. Trump has not been charged with anything except "guilt by association". 14:13, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

I have to say Atsme, this does look like you're the only one with problem with this material. We have shown numerous sources which highlight the relevance of the Cohen raid with this subject. Pack your PAGs and get onboard. This train is leaving the station! 🚂 - MrX 🖋 14:35, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

I have to say that Atsme is not the only one with a problem over the proposed content. I see WP:OR and a lot of WP:SYNTH happening here along with tone and specific syntax that leads a reader to a conclusion. That's not writing an encyclopedia, that's writing biased news story. We aren't news and we don't parrot news agencies just because they said something. When will the agenda-driven anti-Trump editors start applying some common sense at these articles and write truly encyclopedic content, is what I'm wondering. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 14:43, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

MrX, per my comment above about the methodology used in creating this article, I am trying to decide how best to handle it in light of the multiple policy vios of OR & SYNTH. Rather than disturb the "nest", I will simply suggest that the project will be better served with the Cohen information included somewhere else - perhaps his BLP if you think it won't be removed because of the questionable sources. What you're attempting to do here is "piece together the puzzle" you spoke about above, and that is not how encyclopedia's are built. That is how conspiracy theories are proven. You also need to keep in mind that NPOV cannot be superceded by editor consensus. 16:30, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Ah, yes, the "methodology used in creating this article". That has been explained in painstaking detail, so don't speculate about it. Really, some of your previous speculations have been outright alternative facts, and ignored the written and detailed description. The "puzzle" is composed of the pieces found in RS. We do not know what the picture will end up looking like, so all we can do is find puzzle pieces (RS which deal with the subject), and document them. This is not the creation of the puzzle, but the documentation of the pieces. The final puzzle picture will be known much better when the investigation provides even more pieces, and we will faithfully document them. There may or may not end up being a harmonious picture. I actually doubt it.

In the mean time, we do not concern ourselves with the final picture, especially based on any of our preconceived notions or political leanings, and we ALL have them. I repeat, we don't now what it will look like. The only way we can even connect pieces is when the RS do the synthesis for us, and they often do. Fortunately we can place some pieces in immediate proximity to each other, because they are on the same topic, and RS place them there, but often that's as far as we are allowed to go.

Using a puzzle to illustrate this is somewhat useful, but also misleading, because some of our pieces are malleable, based on following events. They literally change shape to accommodate better understanding, and that's why Misplaced Pages's articles are supposed to be updated. We do not, ever, wait for the picture to be fully formed before we start documenting the pieces. We begin to document the pieces as they arrive. (BTW, this "puzzle" talk has no resemblance to any previous description about the "methodology used in creating this article".)

If there has been any improper synthesis or OR, provide specific examples at the time you mention it. NEVER speak of SYNTH or OR without specific and fixable examples. This vague mention of acronyms is unhelpful and proves nothing. When you wave policy flags, provide specific examples at the time, otherwise they are just your way of saying IDONTLIKEIT, and we ignore it. Seriously. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 06:41, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Seeking consensus to restore content challenged by _____

I really thought we had consensus, but I would like to formalize it in light of Atsme's challenge of the material.

Cohen's office, home, and hotel were raided by FBI agents acting under a federal search warrant in mid-April 2018. A few days later, McClatchy reported that Mueller investigation was in possession of evidence that Cohen travelled to Prague in August or September 2016. If true, the report bolsters similar claims in 3 of the dossier's 17 reports. According to McClatchy's confidential sources, Cohen travelled to Prague via Germany, a passage which would not have required use of a passport. In reaction, Cohen denied having ever been to Prague, as he had done in his January 2017 denial following the dossier's release.

 Question: Should this content be in the article? Pinging recent editors BullRangifer, Sławomir Biały, Volunteer Marek, Emir of Misplaced Pages, Objective3000, and Casprings. - MrX 🖋 14:29, 17 April 2018 (UTC) Adding a few more - Politrukki, Factchecker atyourservice 15:16, 17 April 2018 (UTC) We shan't forget Mr Ernie and SPECIFICO- MrX 🖋 15:46, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Support

1. Support per my arguments throughout this section. Recentism is not a policy, and WP:NOTNEWS does not apply because this is not routine coverage.- MrX 🖋 14:29, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
2. Support - Significant coverage in RS. Relevant to the article as it supports claims in multiple parts of the oft challenged dossier. Neutrally stated – includes Cohen denials. All the bases are covered. O3000 (talk) 14:45, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

   Include but eliminate the first sentence (about the raid) and eliminate "a few days later", replacing it with "On April 13, 2018". The current paragraph implies a connection between the raid and the information, and that is not justified. The sources don’t make that connection, and neither should we. In fact I heard one of the reporters who broke this story interviewed on TV last night, and he said they have been gathering information about this for several months. --MelanieN (talk) 15:07, 17 April 2018 (UTC) Changing my mind, see discussion.

   MelanieN. The connection is explicitly made by some of the sources (Reuters, 6th graf; CBS News) in that the raid resulted, at least in part, from a referral from Mueller. My wording is not intended to establish cause and effect, but the two events do have a close temporal relationship noted by several sources.- MrX 🖋 15:43, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

   Yes, the Cohen raid resulted from a referral from Mueller. That has nothing to do with what we are talking about here: we are discussing the report that Cohen went to Prague. When we say the report came out a few days after the raid, we are implying that the report is based on some information seized in the Cohen raid. That appears to be incorrect. (In fact I don't think prosecutors have even looked at any of that information yet; they are still arguing about attorney client privilege.) We should remove any mention of the Cohen raid from this item about Cohen going to Prague. --MelanieN (talk) 16:53, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

   MelanieN is right about the raid. It is unnecessary to mention it here. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 06:44, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

3. Include how can this be excluded, after all the discussion on this page about whether parts of the Dossier have been corroborated by other evidence? Significant and well-sourced and relevant. SPECIFICO talk 15:52, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
4. Support. Some of the reasons for exclusion are nonsensical. WP:TOOSOON is about whether to have an article about a subject, not whether to discuss recent news in relation to a developing story. WP:NOTNEWS actually undercuts exclusion arguments: "As Misplaced Pages is not a paper source, editors are encouraged to include current and up-to-date information within its coverage, and to develop stand-alone articles on significant current events." The exceptions listed clearly do not apply here. It is significant that the dossier alleges a trip to Prague, that Cohen has denied this allegation to the House intelligence committe, and that news reports allege that Mueller has evidence contradicting Cohen's account. Sławomir Biały (talk) 16:20, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

   I disagree with the position on exclusion based on BLP articulated below. WP:NPOV seems clear on this: the dossier made an (unproven) allegation, which Cohen denies. McClatchy's sources allege that Mueller has evidence to the contrary. To cover this neutrally, we include a description of the allegation, Cohen's denial, and the reported existence of evidence contradicting Cohen's account. BLP and NPOV mandate that Misplaced Pages not take a position on the veracity of these items. But, since these details are now widely reported, per WP:WELLKNOWN: "In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources, and BLPs should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it." Sławomir Biały (talk) 16:10, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

   In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources And that is what we are lacking: instead of a multitude of sources - that is, of INDEPENDENT sources - we have one source, which all the other stories are based on. --MelanieN (talk) 17:50, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

   Yes, and we have a multitude of reliable sources citing the McClatchy report. That amply establishes WP:WEIGHT in this context, and we can with no violation say "McClatchy reported that..." couched in appropriately neutral language. Cohen's denial, too, is not an INDEPENDENT source. When we have independent sources that offer conflicting accounts, we do our best to summarize those sources. I do not believe that it is consistent with the spirit of maintaining a neutral point of view to privilege information in which the subject of a BLP appears favorably to that in which he or she appears unfavorably, other things being equal (e.g., WP:WEIGHT). Sławomir Biały (talk) 01:11, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

   What I am concerned with, and I'm not sure if MelanieN is saying the same thing, is making such a potentially damaging and incriminating statement about a person with only one source that claims to have "two sources familiar with the matter" saying Cohen went to Prague. The claim remains unverified by any other source (reliable or otherwise). WP:NOHURRY applies. There is no reason to rush this news report into the article, when the other option on the table is to remain prudent and exert caution when including a claim of this nature, when the target of the report has strongly denied the news report. Other sources have referred to the original report, but in my view that doesn't add extra credence to the validity of the McClatchy article. Mr. Daniel Plainview (talk) 18:19, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

   This is why it is attributed, rather than stated as a fact in Misplaced Pages's voice. Sławomir Biały (talk) 20:57, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

5. Support It's actually ridiculous to try and exclude info which is DIRECTLY pertinent to the topic. Crying "Not news!" or "Recent!" is doubly ridiculous and bad faithed since if we go by this logic we couldn't include ANY developments about the dossier in the article. I could go and remove - err, 'scuse me "challenge" - the entire section "Use in the FBI's Russia investigation" or "Nunes memo" section because that too is "Not news!!" "Recent!!". EVERYTHING in this article is going to be fairly recent and newsworthy. Shameless, POV driven WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT weaselly WP:AGENDA !votes. And frankly, some of these "Oppose" !votes are borderline incoherent (and putting up the freakin' Daily Caller as counter source to this??? Come on people, at least pretend to have some standards).Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:39, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
6. Support. This is a clear cut case when something simply must be included per WP:NPOV. And remember that WP:NPOV is our main non-negotiable policy. It overrides WP:Consensus here, whatever it might be. My very best wishes (talk) 18:25, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
7. Support Direct relevance to the article. To exclude would provide POV.Casprings (talk) 03:38, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose per Atsme as well as WP:NOTNEWS, WP:RECENT, and WP:TOOSOON. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 14:50, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
2. Oppose per my argument above. There is no verifiable evidence. Not all incidents and/or speculation, even when published in RS, is suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia per NOTNEWS. McClatchy attributes their article (primary source) to "two sources familiar with the matter" which is questionable at best...nice for baitclick, but nothing more. The Cohen investigation is not even part of the Mueller probe - it was turned over by Mueller to NY law enforcement because (according to CNN) it's about Cohen's financial investments in a taxi company. It has nothing to do with the Steele dossier.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Atsme (talk • contribs) 15:08, April 17, 2018 (UTC)
3. Oppose this should remain out until it doesn't look and smell like a conspiracy theory.--MONGO 16:01, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
4. Oppose Not confirmed and no indication of what the evidence is.Phmoreno (talk) 16:06, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
5. Oppose until more information is available. Right now this only summarizes what one news agency is reporting and is not very encyclopedic. Mr Ernie (talk) 16:17, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
6. Oppose For the reasons listed above. McClatchy is still the only newsorg claiming to have confirmed this information. Now we have this: . A Special Counsel's office spokesperson warns the Daily Caller that "many stories about our investigation have been inaccurate. Be very cautious about any source that claims to have knowledge about our investigation and dig deep into what they claim before reporting on it." This statement comes after being questioned about the Cohen-Prague pandemonium specifically. Seems like good advice for both journalists and Misplaced Pages editors. WP:NOTNEWS. Mr. Daniel Plainview (talk) 16:54, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
7. Oppose, is it really too much to ask, that we wait until Mueller ends his investigation? GoodDay (talk) 00:25, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
8. Oppose We should avoid speculation until actual facts are known. MelanieN also makes a good point below in regards to sourcing on BLP topics. PackMecEng (talk) 13:03, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
9. Oppose A single report from anonymous sources is not sufficient for BLP claims. Wait for independent verification. James J. Lambden (talk) 20:55, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
10. Oppose Not enough evidence of BLP claims.--Piznajko (talk) 21:43, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Discussion

Ok. Let's see. Take'em one by one:

Winkelvi - "WP:NOTNEWS, WP:RECENT" - everything in this article is recent and news worthy. Singling out this particular piece of info sorta betrays that this is just an excuse for an WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT !vote. Atsme - "no verifiable evidence" - what is that suppose to be? And that's not the standard for inclusion, whatever that's suppose to mean. The standard for inclusion is whether or not it's in the sources. ALL sources attribute their sources. MONGO - "remain out until it doesn't look and smell like a conspiracy theory" - not your call to make. Not sure when you were made Misplaced Pages's sniffer-in-chief. All that matters is whether it's covered by sources. Come on, you know this! Phmoreno - I can't even understand what that is suppose to mean. Mr Ernie - borderline reasonable so I'll leave it alone.

Shameful.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:44, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

"Singling out...Shameful"

Singling out editors and literally attacking them with insults because of their !votes is shameful. Talk about a perfect example of "I don't like it". All your comments here serve to accomplish is starting a brawl. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 18:24, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Criticisms (esp. valid ones) are not insults.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:26, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps, if they were valid. Sometimes we all need to refresh our memories by re-reading relevant policies. In this case, starting with NOTNEWS, NEWSORG, and RECENTISM wouldn't hurt any of us. I recommend reading slowly. 18:32, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

You know I've already addressed that like four times already, right? Maybe if you read my comments above... slowly. To reiterate - everything in this article is newsworthy and everything in this article is fairly recent. This article exists. Get used to it and accept it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:49, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm glad my vote has been deemed "borderline reasonable," but where can I apply for a position as a Misplaced Pages sniffer? Mr Ernie (talk) 19:26, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Mr Ernie...it depends on what you intend to sniff. 20:02, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

I have struck out my "include" vote above; consider me neutral-borderline-opposed. The reason is that by including this (even with the qualifier "if true") we are calling Cohen a liar - possibly a liar under oath. To make this kind of assertion against a living person we should have two independent sources, and we don't. If some source comes out with independent confirmation we should definitely include it. Until then I think we should probably leave it out. I still do say that we should remove any reference to the Cohen investigation. The proposed version implies that the counsel got this information from the Cohen raid, and that is not only not supported by the source, it is highly unlikely - bordering impossible. The special counsel wasn't part of this raid, and the office that did carry it out hasn't even begun to look at the material they got; it's all pending court review. --MelanieN (talk) 20:31, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

MelanieN is right about the raid. It is unnecessary to mention it here. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 06:48, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Wow. Good catch, MelanieN. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 20:37, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

That’s a good point. But, there have been innumerable suggestions on this TP, and in the press, that Steele is a liar. How under NPOV and BLP can we exclude one side? O3000 (talk) 21:16, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

What we say on this TP is irrelevant. Neither NPOV nor BLP applies, at least not strictly; we are free to propose things and discuss things that aren't necessarily going to wind up in the article. What matters is what we say in the article, and we don't say there that Steele is a liar. Nor should we imply that Cohen is. --MelanieN (talk) 22:01, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

While we are allowed to discuss, often what we discuss is a reflection of what is in the media, reliable and unreliable. The article provides several criticisms of the dossier, which is all well and good. Just want to make certain that we consider inclusion of the supporting sources. Obviously correct handling of NPOV can be difficult in such an article. We need to apply BLP to both Steele and those that would attack or support him.O3000 (talk) 22:17, 17 April 2018 (UTC).

• I'm curious why this: "Seeking consensus to restore content challenged by _____ " is being seen as acceptable as this section's header/title. It's quite non-standard, and the name was removed at the request of Atsme because she correctly pointed out that putting the name of an editor in a talk page header is against policy/guidelines. I know I've seen somewhere before at a noticeboard somewhere, more than once, where a policy or guideline was named as anti-naming editors in headers. Can't put my finger on what the policy or guideline is, but I know that I've seen admins and long-term editor admonish and name some policy/guideline when they've removed the name and turned the header into a neutral, just-the-facts-ma'am kind of title. I changed it, it was reverted. What purpose does it serve or point does it prove to have the header remain as unnecessarily non-standard in its current state? Shouldn't it be more standard and per TPG/MOS? -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 23:54, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

All fixed - for those who may be curious about the guideine, see WP:TALKNEW. 00:26, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Is it fixed? Regardless, I'm thankful to Mandruss for knowing what elusive policy was being referred to. I knew it existed (and not just in my imagination). -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 00:31, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Possible earlier interest in Trump

The "Possible earlier interest in Trump" section needs a better location, as it's not strictly part of the allegations. Any ideas? Can it be incorporated into an existing section? It's only one paragraph. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 17:41, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Mayer on Wikileaks

I'm removing the following content:

Main articles: 2016 Democratic National Committee email leak and Democratic National Committee cyber attacks

Mayer agrees with Steele that the Kremlin and WikiLeaks cooperated to release the stolen DNC emails, as stated by the U.S. Intelligence Community. On December 9, 2016, the CIA told U.S. legislators that the U.S. Intelligence Community concluded Russia conducted operations during the 2016 U.S. election to prevent Clinton from winning the presidency. Three U.S intelligence agencies concluded that people with direct ties to the Kremlin had sent hacked emails from the DNC to WikiLeaks.

References

1. Cite error: The named reference Mayer_3/12/2018 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
2. Shuster, Simon (July 25, 2016). "Why Putin Has an Electoral Bone to Pick With Hillary Clinton". Time. Retrieved March 7, 2018.
3. ^ Entous, Adam; Nakashima, Ellen; Miller, Greg (December 9, 2016). "Secret CIA assessment says Russia was trying to help Trump win White House". The Washington Post. Retrieved March 7, 2018.

Everything that follows the Mayer citation (#1) fails WP:NOR, one way or another. Either these sources don't mention the dossier – which is unsurprising as they were published before there was public knowledge of its existence – or the claims fail verification. The Time article is supposed to verify something that happened in December 2016 even though it was published in July 2016. "people with direct ties to the Kremlin" is even more problematic because the cited source says the opposite.

The Washington Post:

intelligence agencies do not have specific intelligence showing officials in the Kremlin "directing" the identified individuals to pass the Democratic emails to WikiLeaks, a second senior U.S. official said. Those actors, according to the official, were "one step" removed from the Russian government, rather than government employees.

Other sources I was able to find are consistent with the U.S. official's statement.

Comey's March testimony:

SCHIFF: This is a question I think you can answer. Do you know whether the Russian intelligence service has dealt directly with WikiLeaks or whether they too used an intermediary?
COMEY: We assessed they used some kind of cutout. They didn't deal directly with WikiLeaks. In contrast to D.C. Leaks and Guccifer 2.0.

Telegraph (about Comey's March testimony)

Mr Schiff, the top Democrat on the committee, asked Mr Comey if Russia had direct dealings with Wikileaks.
Mr Comey responded: "We assess they used some kind of cut out. They didn’t deal directly with Wikileaks."

CBS News (about Comey's March testimony)

Comey said that the U.S. believes Russian intelligence used some kind of "cut-out" in dealing with WikiLeaks.

Vox

Days before the Democratic National Convention, WikiLeaks releases 19,000 Democratic National Convention emails provided by "Guccifer 2.0" — a hacker who we later learn was a cut-out, or intermediary, for Russian intelligence.

Bloomberg

The report by U.S. intelligence agencies says Russia’s General Staff Main Intelligence Directorate, or GRU, gave the material to WikiLeaks through an intermediary.

CNN

US intelligence has said the Podesta emails were stolen by Russia and handed over to WikiLeaks through an intermediary.

Mayer's assertion "Kremlin and WikiLeaks were working together to release the D.N.C.'s e-mails" (per the source, while removed content says "Kremlin and WikiLeaks cooperated to release the stolen DNC emails) is unsubstantiated and I don't remember seeing anyone claiming that WikiLeaks was directly in contact with Russian intelligence services. At least after Comey testimony. In light of reporting in reliable sources, I would leave this section out unless there is some evidence of direct contact. Politrukki (talk) 12:07, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

• To the contrary, the text about the connections between WikiLeaks and Russian intelligence and propaganda must be expanded. But yes, it also needs to be better sourced and possibly described in more detail on other pages. Sourcing is not a problem. That was widely published. For example, CBS tells:

According to the the widely circulated January 2017 U.S. intelligence report detailing interference in the 2016 election, U.S. intelligence officials believe with "high confidence" that there is a connection between Russian military intelligence and the entities Guccifer 2.0, DCLeaks.com and WikiLeaks that resulted in the deluge of hacked emails from the Democratic National Committee and Hillary Clinton's associates hitting the Internet in the weeks ahead of the election. Clinton recently called WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange a "tool of Russian intelligence," and current CIA Director Mike Pompeo has dubbed it a "hostile intelligence service." ... The Kremlin's principal international propaganda outlet RT (formerly Russia Today) has actively collaborated with WikiLeaks," the report said."

And so on. Here, here, etc. My very best wishes (talk) 19:14, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

I don't see any evidence of direct connection. Please show a quote that you think proves a direct connection. Remember for example that the ODNI report you cited came before, not after, Comey's public testimony to Congress, in which Comey mentioned the detail about "cut outs". If Comey's testimony has been seriously contested, I would like to know. But this is only for assessing how controversial Mayer's claim is. Any (hypothetical) additional material should be based on reliable sources that directly mention both Wikileaks and the dossier or, like you said, the material may belong to another article. Politrukki (talk) 10:39, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Ironically, the only direct connection to Russia that is verifiable and clearly evident is the connection between Steele and the Russian spies who provided the contents of his dossier on Trump. That is the only "statement of fact" that we can feel confident about publishing. Assange has repeatedly denied the allegations that the Kremlin was involved in the leaks. Several high-ups in the FBI have been fired or demoted, and there are ongoing criminal investigations. We need to stick to verifiable statements of fact and not get carried away with the conspiracy theories and unsubstantiated allegations that appear to be politically motivated. Our encyclopedia should not be used to support political disputes, or base entire articles on nothing more than speculation and journalistic opinion. Certainly it's fine to add a paragraph or two using in-text attribution to whoever is making such a claim, but when unsubstantiated allegations comprise the bulk of the article, we're getting into conspiracy theory territory and that is what concerns me most. Please let's not do that to our pedia. 11:08, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Parts of dossier "proven" false?

The only source I see that asserts parts of the dossier have been proven false is this from December 2017, which has been referenced in the article:

Certain parts of the dossier have either been confirmed or proven false

The source does not state what was proven false, but it's likely to be the assertion that Cohen met Russians in Praque, which Cohen "disproved" by showing his passport to Buzzfeed, revealing no Czech Republic stamp. Republicans assert this as "proof" here, but they omit this qualifying information from the source they cite:

Cohen’s passport would not show any record of a visit to Prague if he entered the EU through Italy, traveled to the Czech Republic, and then returned to his point of EU entry. A congressional official said the issue is “still active” for investigators.

And a few days ago we got this:

The Justice Department special counsel has evidence that Donald Trump’s personal lawyer and confidant, Michael Cohen, secretly made a late-summer trip to Prague during the 2016 presidential campaign, according to two sources familiar with the matter.

which discusses how Cohen could've entered the Czech Republic indirectly via a Schengen Area country.

Also, I have found The Hill to have a spotty track record and a seeming reluctance to issue corrections. I tend to avoid relying on them unless another source confirms their reports. So unless someone can provide another source that specifies what has been proven false, and that has not been contradicted, I recommend that this article not assert that anything in the dossier has been proven false.soibangla (talk) 03:49, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Agreed about The Hill. They can be shoddy and careless, sometimes with reports which are extreme left-, and more often extreme right-wing blog type "news" reports. That's not right. If it's an opinion article, that's fine, and we might use it and attribute it as such, but it shouldn't be confused with news reporting. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 05:23, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Cohen's denial isn't worth much at all. It's full of holes, and rich people can travel all over the world in private jets with no record at all. Only the flight, but not the passengers, are recorded. Trump traveled to the 2013 Miss Universe pageant in Moscow on a friends jet, with no record. If he hadn't shown his face, we wouldn't have known. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 05:25, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

At this moment nothing in the text of the wiki article says that anything has been proven false. I agree that that The Hill citation should be removed as inaccurate (it doesn't even remotely back up that claim), since there already is an accurate citation to the sentence it cites. GreyGoose (talk) 04:11, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

The only things "false" are a few typos, and no one in their right mind considers such things as "false". So one could say minor errors, but we'd need RS for that. Thus it's better to not use sources which are wrong. I tend to agree with GreyGoose that The Hill citation can be removed until actual evidence is provided by a RS, and then we can use that source and mention the false information. "Unproven" is not "false". -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 05:23, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Even the things that have been called out as supposed typos are possibly not actually typos. "Alfa" being spelled "Alpha" by Steele is simply another transliteration from Russian. If you research closely, it's fairly obvious that some of the lesser companies in that group (owned or indirectly controlled by Fridman, Aven, and Khan) are still called "Alpha", even in their official UK/US names. Russian names (company names and people's names) generally have a variety of transliterations. GreyGoose (talk) 05:40, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Good point. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 05:58, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Fixed by using the next ref and its wording. No need to use a source which was inaccurate. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 05:33, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

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