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Talk page guidelines

Please respect etiquette and assume good faith. Also be nice and remain civil.

Your recent comment about American people was out of line; I took the liberty to hat it. Please edit respectfully. — JFG 04:27, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

@JFG: Actually, no. It was 100% truthful. Please don't presume to edit my comments again. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:33, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

I did not edit your comment; I found it out of line and unhelpful towards improving the article, so I hatted it and informed you here. Meanwhile somebody else unhatted it, which I find regrettable but won't contest. — JFG 19:06, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree. Perhaps a civility vio is in order since he doesn't seem to understand the gravity of his comment. 19:45, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Not sure whether WP:CIVIL policy should extend to all "horrid racists and gullible idiots", or if it was just designed for us lowly Wikipedians. — JFG 21:13, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

@Atsme and JFG: If you two would like to chat with each other about this, please do so on one of your own talk pages, rather than here. My comment was entirely factual (you can even find tons of sourcing to back it up), and also went on to address the absurd claim that the tax returns issue was "stale". I get that some members of Trump's cult would find my comment hits a nerve, but I don't care about that in the slightest. If you can't see why the comment is factual and necessary, you are part of the problem. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:20, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm pinging NeilN to see what he thinks about Scjessey's comment being 100% "truthful" and "factual", or if it was indeed a violation of WP:CIVIL, or perhaps even WP:BLP. 21:26, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Sigh. Be my guest. By all means try to use wikilawyering to get someone you often disagree with sanctioned. I'm used to it. The comment in question didn't target any editors, and it was a direct response to the FORUMy stuff you posted with that silly claim about the tax return thing being "stale". -- Scjessey (talk) 21:33, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Nobody was trying to get you sanctioned - we just want you to understand why your comment was out of line. Your refusal to accept that fact is why I'm asking for outside help. 21:41, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Methinks there's too much thin skin around here. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 22:12, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Bull, as an American you should thank them for protecting you from something or other. SPECIFICO talk 23:19, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

LMAO! Riiiight.... Unfortunately the thin skinned ones are defending the orange one attacking American democracy and just confirming the truth of the offending statement. Sad. Yes, it's a strong personal opinion, but was not directed at any editor, so that they take offense is very telling. Even more sad. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 00:59, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

I hadn't thought of it that way. Easier for editors w/o any political views. Just slice and dice the RS. SPECIFICO talk 01:31, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

There are many ways of thinking about it, but letting it affect oneself is a sign of weakness. They should just bend and not let it affect their balance. Their resistance and objection allows the adversary to have power over them and push them out of balance. That's what the thin skinned are doing. They are allowing that statement to have power over them. They should grow thicker skin and show they are above such things. Ignoring perceived slights is a sign of strength and infuriates the adversary. They are missing an opportunity by reacting. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 03:04, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Dear BullRangifer, I don't know what the heck you're talking about. For the record, I don't feel offended in the slightest, I was just trying to maintain a modicum of decorum in our most-viewed political talk page. Speaking as an encyclopedist. — JFG 04:47, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Scjessey, can you do us all a favor and provide the sources you say exist that back up your statement? --NeilN 04:27, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

I can't speak for him, but when I read his comment (discovered only because of all the Streisand effect caused by this thin skinned hub bub here), I recognize it basically as a reflection, or other expression of, the content of the Basket of deplorables article. There are plenty of sources there. He may have worded it a bit crudely (not forbidden here), but basically true, and the POV of the largest portion of voters in the election, and born out by current history.

It's Scjessey's personal opinion, not aimed at any named editors, and some people should just learn to chill and not be so thin skinned, instead of using it as an excuse to put on their battle attire. Their reaction is exactly what WP:BATTLE is about. It's that tendency to pick up a stick, rather than drop it. That's been my whole point here.

I'm not going to defend the comment, as such. I just think that editors who seek to escalate conflicts, and make more of a personal remark than is warranted, are creating too much drama and turning this place into a battlefield. Then when admins arrive on the scene, or the minor comment is blown up and dragged to a drama board they can abuse, the admins should look at the situation and see who is making the most disruption: Was it Scjessey's slightly emotional and pretty passive en passant muttering of frustration, or those who blew it up into far more than it was, showing that they are the ones looking for a fight? Who expended the most effort to make sure a dying ember was not allowed to disappear into oblivion, but kept alive and blasted into a forest fire? Who really started that forest fire using active measures? They are the ones who need a bucket of cold water poured over their heads and told to get a thicker skin, grow up, and not think of abusing drama boards or crying MAMA to admins. They are busy enough. At least JFG was mature enough to say they weren't planning on doing anything more about it ("regrettable but won't contest"). Kudos to them for that. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 06:23, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Can we talk about why NeilN has become the dial-an-admin for Atsme, et al? He's issued dismissive warnings here before (at the behest of a sock, no less), and doesn't seem to have the nuance necessary to see what's going on in this topic area. Admins SHOULD be better than this. 138.115.53.142 (talk) 17:55, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

@IP138, can you please identify yourself? — JFG 18:10, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Lamest phishing attempt ever. 138.115.53.142 (talk) 18:35, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

@IP138: I appreciate your support, but I disagree completely. NeilN (talk · contribs) has been a solid, impartial administrator in a seriously hot topic area that necessarily needs stricter policing than most of Misplaced Pages. Every editor I'm familiar with in the topic area, regardless of personal bias, seems to justifiably have full confidence in NeilN's ability to administrate with an even hand. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:33, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

• Funny how I ended up here, in this discussion, after clicking my way down from something else. Two cents' worth: As it happens, I'm far from a "Trump fan". I do not mind discussions with Trump supporters, even heated ones; just not in Misplaced Pages. I rarely if ever express personal opinions of any kind, and even less so, support them in Misplaced Pages. (I've done so plenty of times elsewhere and have admin'd message boards that make Misplaced Pages look like a primary school debate society, in terms of civility.)

Cut to the chase: I would disagree with Scjessey's comments on Trump voters (I believe what drove Trump's victory was mainly something else IMO and not "racism," etc, and that's evidenced, inter alia, by Obama's recent two wins) but that is not why I do not want them on Misplaced Pages. It's just that they're unnecessary and highly counter-productive in the context of contributing to an encyclopaedia. Words such as " are clowns" I do not mind at all in real life; in fact, I find such ways of "arguing" the easiest to deal with! But with Misplaced Pages being foundationally (1) a collaborative project, (2) neutral, and (3) balanced, we are forced in a coexistence with persons of different viewpoints in almost everything. Volunteering to work together here, therefore, requires minimizing friction and adversarial interactions on the basis of ideological differences. (Am I trying to remove entirely social context from Misplaced Pages? I hope not! ) -The Gnome (talk) 05:26, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

@The Gnome: I wasn't expressing an "opinion" about voters. It was a verifiable fact, backed by reliable sources. Nobody thought Trump would win when he announced his candidacy, but gradually it began to dawn on politicos that Trump's continuous attacks on Obama (questioning where he was born, questioning his religion, questioning his motives - all on the basis of race) were a vote-winning strategy. That, coupled with an astonishing willingness of the poorly educated and uninformed to vote completely against their own best interests if you chant horrible things like "lock her up" led to what turned out to be a stunning upset. Naked racism and stupidity, which Clinton more elegantly described as "deplorable", is why Trump won the election. Also, it was the culmination of a 30-year campaign by Republicans to brand knowledge as "elitism" and ignorance as "bliss". -- Scjessey (talk) 11:58, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Aaannddd you missed the point. PackMecEng (talk) 12:45, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

You're saying, Scjessey, that what you wrote is a verifiable fact. Yet it's not. There are opinions (by others, if you prefer it this way, and not by you) that Trump won on the basis of "racism" and "xenophobia" but nowhere has this been documented by hard facts. Having a poll showing, for example (I'm making this up), that 95% of self-described racists voted for Trump does not mean that Trump won because the racists voted for him en masse. That would be simply bad statistics. There were other factors at work in the 2016 election; it was not a coincidence that all the candidates that were running on an "anti-establishment", "radical" campaign (whether genuine or not) were doing so well in the primaries, while the typical party-candidates were faring so badly (compared to expectations, at least). Bernie Sanders, for instance, was not a coincidence.

Sanders has been around for a very long time; yet, it was in 2016 that he caught fire as a national politician. In 2012 and before that in 2008, Americans voted decisively for Barack Obama, a black, allegedly Muslim, possibly foreign-born guy. Yes, those allegations were proved entirely false but they were a strong weapon in the political battlefield for the presidency. They did not affect the race.

So, there has been no indication that Americans suddenly turned more "racist" or more "rightward" or more "conservative" since Obama's time. On the contrary, we have solid evidence, e.g. the polls on gay marriage turning completely around, of Americans turning more liberal, and most prominently being seriously unsatisfied with their socioeconomic predicament. In so many words, characterizing as "racists" the American voters who elected (in terms of the electoral college but not in percentages) Donald Trump for president does not represent a fact. -The Gnome (talk) 13:19, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Scjessey wrote: I wasn't expressing an "opinion" about voters. Also Scjessey: Naked racism and stupidity is why Trump won the election. That's opinion. Did the same "flyover nation" people who voted for Obama twice suddenly turn racist? — JFG 13:52, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

The reasons why History moves are typically socioeoconomic, aka material. But ideas do make mountains move, too, I will not deny it. What we had, per documented research, in the 2016 American prez election, was a huge wave of discontent; not of intolerance and racism. That was the neofascists, the alt-right, and the racists who came and stood front and center and made a tremendous amount of noise and had an asymmetrical presence in the media. But Trump's rhetoric did not give birth to new racists and it did not turn liberals or conservatives into fascists; what it did was it legitimized openly racist, aggressive, and boorish behavior, towards the minorities next to us.

Numbers are numbers, and polls are polls. What we have as fact, despite what you believe, is that Americans voted for two persons who came from outside the big mainstream tent and chose them to contest the presidency. Such was the depth of mass discontent. One of those two was prevented by his own party to enter the election, as by now everyone admits; while the other defeated the machine of his (nominal) party and won the White House. The Extreme Right might be cheering ever since, but they did not bring on the victory. You could invoke a more legitimate factor by pointing out the huge number of Sanders' voters who stayed home election day. -The Gnome (talk)

Trump emboldened racists, who finally had a reason to come out and vote, so they did. That's a fact. Sanders voters were idiots too. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:19, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Geez, in your worldview, only citizens who already voted for Clinton in the primary are not idiots or racists? What a deplorable thing to say! — JFG 17:44, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

@JFG: The country is going down the shitter because of Trump and Republican enablers, so it is clear anyone who failed to vote for Clinton has fucked us all into a cocked hat. Bernie never had a shot, so a vote for Bernie was just as worthless as a vote for a third party candidate. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:48, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Yeah I remember you were quite mad at Bernie during the primaries, especially as he didn't really bow out until Obama grabbed him by the in the White House. But that election is done and can't be brought back, just like the 2000 Florida recount. Your best bet is to push for the Blue Wave in the midterms. Doesn't look easy, from where I'm watching… — JFG 17:56, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

@JFG: To be honest, I'm not interested in "pushing" for anything. My chief concern is that bullshit and lies has become the "new normal" and it is starting to infect Misplaced Pages. I find myself drawn to the likes of Steve Schmidt, Michael Steele, and even fucking Bill Kristol for evidence that the Republican party hasn't gone completely tits up. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:03, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

I feel your pain. But at least you won't get nuked by a rogue NoKo missile. Rejoice! — JFG 18:05, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

How do you know? There's nothing in the "agreement" that guarantees that. We are in exactly the same place now as we were before the pretend summit. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:09, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Nah, I don't see residents of Tokyo, Guam and Hawaii being trained for emergency nuke alerts. Situation has seriously de-escalated over the last few months. South Korean President Moon played a great role in that, imho, as he both accepted overtures by Kim and made some of his own. — JFG 19:52, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

An even bigger concern should be drunk drivers. 20:22, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

@JFG: "Situation has seriously de-escalated..." You do know who escalated the situation in the first place, right? Tweets about "Rocket Man", fire and fury, and big buttons were not helpful. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:00, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Who says anything escalated? That may play OK for the nightly cable news audience, but encyclopedia editors need to be much better informed, critical, curious, and insightful. This sounds like walking out of a Sci-Fi movie and feeling glad Earth was not destroyed. We don't take any public figure's spin on its own terms. We search for RS descriptions and context. I haven't read this thread closely. Was that supposed to be a joke about "de-escalated"? Who said it escalated? Oh, the same one who said he de-escalated it. Thanks for the de-escalation, Americans. Let's keep some perspective and drop the editor OR. SPECIFICO talk 02:09, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Mmhh, actually, the North Korean regime escalated bigly by sending long-range missiles over Japan and detonating nuclear bombs. Mean tweets don't quite raise to that level imho. — JFG 04:07, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

The reality is (still on "just the facts, ma'm") is that the US and N.Korea have been at essentially a state of war for more than six decades, long after the Korean War and the Cold War were over. One could posit with confidence that any country in the world that finds itself at a state of permanent, official war with a superpower such as America would go to any extreme imaginable to defend itself. And would be acting irrationally if it were to unilaterally disarm itself, of lessen its military capacity at any level. (Here's an interesting yet not that surprising insight as to how relations between NK and the US could have improved: a brief presentation of the methodical diplomatic efforts undertaken during Clinton's presidency.) Just as in the Middle East conflict, the solution depends on the actions of the party that finds itself at a dominant position. Of course, the very dominance of such a position inhibits moves towards a fair and peaceful resolution of conflicts. We are in the realm of tragedy. -The Gnome (talk) 05:29, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Seriously, Scjessey, do you actually believe that the United States would be under threat of being attacked by North Korea if no rapprochement with North Korea was made and if no agreement between NK and the US is achieved? If we're still talking about facts on the ground, this is a most absurd notion, considering the gigantic difference in military power between the US and the rest of the world's countries, including the other so-called "superpowers," and not on the basis of "defense" spending but of sheer strength and reach. So, I find we're no longer talking about facts but about obsessions and ideology. I perhaps have something to say in that respect but this is not the place to do so. Take care. -The Gnome (talk) 05:29, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

@The Gnome: "I perhaps have something to say in that respect but this is not the place to do so." Please feel free to speak freely (that sounds weird) on this talk page, provided it doesn't break one of Misplaced Pages's policies. I welcome healthy debate and hearing alternative views to my own.

The threat would not be from North Korea itself, which has failed to really produce a convincing ICBM that can survive re-entry. The problem is that war with North Korea would inevitably draw in China and then other nations. Once the first nuclear weapon is deployed, the rest will follow, and it's goodnight, sweetheart regardless of who is waving the biggest stick. I am delighted the USA is engaged in talks with North Korea, and I really hope Trump can make it a success. Unfortunately, Trump gave away the farm (military exercises ended, praise of a murderous dictator, North Korea given equal billing to the USA) and came away with nothing. Trump metaphorically bowed so low to Kim, he was able to lick the floor. Neville Chamberlain could've got a better deal. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:45, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

The comparison to Munich 1938 has no substance. In 1938, the Allies gave away something substantial: the territorial integrity of Czechoslovakia. In 2018, the United States gave away nothing at all: The war games did not cease for ever, they were merely postponed; and the "equal footing" you perceive is nothing but the typical diplomatic environment in meetings between delegations, especially between leaders. What did you expect, that the American would sit on a higher chair than the Korean or that Trump would kick Kim in the balls? Such meetings follow routine, standard protocol.

And, of course, when you meet an adversary for peace talks, you cease the belligerent rhetoric.

Trump (whom, as it happens, I have been following since he was a New York landlord's son back in the day) is a person more comfortable with one-to-one interaction than with a crowded room. Compare the G7 fiasco with the NK rapprochement. Trump's readiness to engage in talks directly with a North Korean leader is something unprecedented and totally out of book. These talks could, at last, bring peace between the two countries. (Again, check out the link I gave to the history between NK & the US.) Having said that, I find Donald Trump to be a person who, overall, is evidently unfit for the office, and I suspect he did not want the presidency but the glory and the exposure. The presidential campaign was going 100 percent greatly for businessman Trump up until the night he won the White House. -The Gnome (talk) 14:17, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Gnome, this solipsistic nonsense is useless for Misplaced Pages and need not be published here. This is fringe blog fodder. Please don't put your personal theories on various Misplaced Pages pages. We're here to work on the encyclopedia and you should not assume anyone cares about your personal theories and opinions. SPECIFICO talk 15:09, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

This goes for everyone, by the way. --NeilN 15:15, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

@SPECIFICO: Did you miss Scjessey's comment just above, telling The Gnome that further discussion is welcome. Scjessey is free to decide what is and is not appropriate on his own talk page, just as you are free to determine what you want on yours. Please respect his wishes. — JFG 17:17, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. I did, in fact, invite comment. As long as it doesn't break policy, I welcome it on this talk page, even if it's "a load of old cobblers" (as we British folk like to say). -- Scjessey (talk) 20:59, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Apologies if I broke policy. I'm taking my leave off this thread. (And apologies specifically to SPECIFICO for my engaging in non-mainstream analysis. ). Oh, and an accusation was made that I'm posting "personal theories on various Misplaced Pages pages." It's a baseless and silly claim. -The Gnome (talk) 06:22, 18 June 2018 (UTC)