Revision as of 04:54, 9 October 2020 editBruce leverett (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users5,853 edits →On discussion for inclusion of leftist perspective.← Previous edit | Revision as of 07:09, 9 October 2020 edit undoJack Upland (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users31,892 edits →On discussion for inclusion of leftist perspective.Next edit → | ||
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{{u|Jack Upland}} What's wrong with the the leftist section in you're opinion? You said it's wrong, how so. Thanks. ] (]) 00:15, 9 October 2020 (UTC) | {{u|Jack Upland}} What's wrong with the the leftist section in you're opinion? You said it's wrong, how so. Thanks. ] (]) 00:15, 9 October 2020 (UTC) | ||
:Not enough sourcing. I suppose that the paper by Howard and King may be a reliable source, but you cited it without giving the reader any way to find it, e.g. no journal title, date, etc. The rest of the section has no reliable sources at all. The "ABC of Anarchism" is not a reliable source (I don't even know who the author is, other than Berkman), and is generally unhelpful and marginally relevant. If you don't provide sources, the reader is left to assume that you are making it all up. ] (]) 04:53, 9 October 2020 (UTC) | :Not enough sourcing. I suppose that the paper by Howard and King may be a reliable source, but you cited it without giving the reader any way to find it, e.g. no journal title, date, etc. The rest of the section has no reliable sources at all. The "ABC of Anarchism" is not a reliable source (I don't even know who the author is, other than Berkman), and is generally unhelpful and marginally relevant. If you don't provide sources, the reader is left to assume that you are making it all up. ] (]) 04:53, 9 October 2020 (UTC) | ||
::I agree with the above. I don't think Howard and King actually support the assertions made in the article. Their conclusion is: "Thus the state capitalist hypothesis is unpersuasive... It is more appropriate to see the Soviet Union as a challenger to all forms of capitalism. Not a genuine socialist challenge, certainly, but a real menace which for several decades was regarded as the principal threat to their power by the ruling classes of all actual capitalisms". As far as I know (and as indicated by Howard and King), the main supporters of the state capitalist hypothesis are the followers of ], who are by no means the majority of leftists. Overall, the section refers to the opinions of some leftists, but doesn't establish that these are the main opinions held by leftists. And what timeframe are you talking about? The ''ABC of Anarchism'' was written in 1928 (when the USSR was only 6 years old). This doesn't really fit under "Legacy".--] (]) 07:09, 9 October 2020 (UTC) |
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Misleading HDI figures
The HDI figure cited for the Soviet Union is from the 1990 version of HDI. This used a method so old that the Misplaced Pages article on HDI does not even cover it. To be specific, here are the notable differences in the 1990 method:
- The Life Expectancy max and min was not 85 and 25, but was instead the highest and lowest from that year, 78.4 and 41.8
- Education just used the adult literacy rate. Similar method for selecting max and min, 100 and 12.3 respectively.
- Similar for GDP per capita log max and min, which were 3.68 and 2.34.
The inclusion of a 1990 HDI figure here is clearly going to mislead people, as it's not clear that a 1990 HDI figure represents not only a different date but also a totally different methodology. To give you an idea of how big the difference is, the US 2018 HDI figure is 0.920. This may lead someone to think that the HDI of the USSR in 1990 and the US today is comparable. However, if you calculated the US HDI using the 1990 method, you'd get somewhere between 1.200 and 1.300. Yes, over 1.
For now, I have removed the HDI from the infobox. It could be replaced with a 1990 figure calculated using the current method, if such data could be found.Tophattingson (talk) 02:37, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
There is an HDI value for 1990 using current methods in Human Development Report 2019. They describe the issues you mention in this report on Russia and present an HDI value of 0.734 for 1990. I've added this value to the infobox. Subvisser5 (talk) 21:43, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Might it not be a good idea to cite the source? Also, mention (in the footnote) that the source's figure of 0.734 is for Russia only, not for the whole Soviet Union. Bruce leverett (talk) 22:29, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Small text in infobox
@CapLiber: @Davide King: The use of small text in the infobox, for example "de jure" and "de facto", makes it hard to read on a mobile device. I notice that this is explicitly mentioned in MOS:SMALLTEXT, which strongly discourages editors from the practice. I will fix this, unless there are objections. Thanks for your attention. Bruce leverett (talk) 04:35, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
- Bruce leverett @CapLiber: I agree. What's the point of using Template small? I've seen too much use of it in Infoboxes. For de jure and de facto, we can just use br (or even just put a note) but what's the point of small? I checked on my phone and it's not necessary; only is needed is the br, it doesn't split in normal characters. Same thing for the English translation for motto and anthem, what's the point? The text doesn't split either on desktop or phone, so why? In this specific case, Nowrap and small should be used only once to make sure the Union of the Soviet Socialist Republic name doesn't split up.--Davide King (talk) 16:20, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
I think this article skims over the history also when talking about the famine in Ukraine I think go into more detail since it is a very confusing topic and can easily be misinterpreted and probably has, another thing is that the U.S.S.R was too influential to let anyone edit the article after all it’s very recent history so it has a lasting impact and Captain James Cook was special enough to get special editing access so defiantly the Soviet Union should receive such treatment.14.200.36.51 (talk) 01:05, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 8 July 2020
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The short description for this article lists the Soviet Union's active years as 1992 to 1991.
Communist state in Europe and Asia that lasted from 1992 to 1991Can we correct this to "1922 to 1991"? Rmuzzey (talk) 22:36, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
- Done, thanks! Pupsterlove02 talk • contribs 23:23, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 2 October 2020
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A troika and brief power struggle needs to be changed to "after a troika and brief power struggle" ItsAHooman (talk) 20:23, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
- ItsAHooman Done, thanks for the small edit. It makes much more grammatical sense to have "after a troika and brief power struggle". Vallee01 (talk) 20:49, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
On discussion for inclusion of leftist perspective.
Jack Upland What's wrong with the the leftist section in you're opinion? You said it's wrong, how so. Thanks. Vallee01 (talk) 00:15, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- Not enough sourcing. I suppose that the paper by Howard and King may be a reliable source, but you cited it without giving the reader any way to find it, e.g. no journal title, date, etc. The rest of the section has no reliable sources at all. The "ABC of Anarchism" is not a reliable source (I don't even know who the author is, other than Berkman), and is generally unhelpful and marginally relevant. If you don't provide sources, the reader is left to assume that you are making it all up. Bruce leverett (talk) 04:53, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with the above. I don't think Howard and King actually support the assertions made in the article. Their conclusion is: "Thus the state capitalist hypothesis is unpersuasive... It is more appropriate to see the Soviet Union as a challenger to all forms of capitalism. Not a genuine socialist challenge, certainly, but a real menace which for several decades was regarded as the principal threat to their power by the ruling classes of all actual capitalisms". As far as I know (and as indicated by Howard and King), the main supporters of the state capitalist hypothesis are the followers of Tony Cliff, who are by no means the majority of leftists. Overall, the section refers to the opinions of some leftists, but doesn't establish that these are the main opinions held by leftists. And what timeframe are you talking about? The ABC of Anarchism was written in 1928 (when the USSR was only 6 years old). This doesn't really fit under "Legacy".--Jack Upland (talk) 07:09, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
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