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| == |
== Civil war == | ||
| The area was occupied by the British sometime around the civil war post WW2. There might be some information in this regard to flesh out the modern history section. I wouldn't know where to start for sources on that though ] (]) 00:46, 31 May 2022 (UTC) | |||
| Anyone have a list of Byzantine to Post-Byzantines rulers of Ioannina? | |||
| :No, it wasn't. German occupation was followed by Greek resistance control (EDES resistance group then ELAS resistance) and finally under Greek government forces. ] (]) 20:57, 31 May 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{u|Alexikoua}}, there might have been power-play between EDES and the British but they were there <s>in number</s> and assuming control. You may discover this in Greek sources; I unfortunately have this on an un-citable but good first hand account. ] (]) 22:17, 31 May 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::Just to re-factor my point there, that was more a comment in general, it's my understanding that the numbers in Ioaninna itself weren't the levels one might expect, a relatively small number of British but tasked with the same expectation of maintaining British interest/control, and re-supplied at long intervals from Athens. I'm simply suggesting research into this might generate some more information for the article. Regards, ] (]) 23:31, 31 May 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Adding Albanian name to the lede == | |||
| :Maybe helps? (] | ] | ]) 11:28, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Ioannina has About 125.000 results at Google books | |||
| Omicron, the last Greek letter? What other simple fact-checking blunders exist in this article? | |||
| Janina has 792.000 results | |||
| And "Janina Greece" has 160.000 results. | |||
| The Albanian name is clearly needed in the lede. ] (]) 19:53, 17 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :If no one has something against it, I'll add the name in near future. ] (]) 20:07, 17 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :Thanks for mentioning this. I intend to remove it along with some other changes. This article needs quite a few corrections... (] | ] | ]) July 6, 2005 00:00 (UTC) | |||
| ::We've been over this. ]. ] (]) 22:01, 17 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::So you're constantly ignoring WP:NC. Just think about it, "Janina" has more results than the Greek version. One time you're saying the name requires to be used by 10 % of sources, and now this. I'll bring it to the Noticeboard of the Admins if you continue doing this, also stop your disruptive editing and discuss first until consensus is reached. Stop your POV. If you don't like the Albanian names in Epirus, you can say goodbye to the Greek ones in Albania. Double standards. ] (]) 23:19, 17 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Also, I'd like to hear the statement of @] in this case. ] (]) 23:32, 17 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Jannina is one of the transliterations in demotic Greek: Yannena and Yannina is the most correct way to spell it in English (though in German this would be Jannina = from demotic Greek Γιάννενα). I call the city that way too as most Greek speakers do. Yannena is already in lead. It's not the Albanian form which happens to be quite similar in spelling.] (]) 23:53, 17 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| You can not use that as an excuse. Alone "Yannena" has only about 350 results on Google books. And you want to tell me that the alternate spelling of an alternate name has more than 100.000 results? Please, don' take it too far. Also, I think the Albanian form is widely used due to the fact that Ali Pasha was Albanian and the sources prefer the Albanian name. So, does the whole thing fit now? More than 10% of the sources (>100% actually). As you wanted. ] (]) 00:35, 18 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| If the city was founded in the sixth century AD by Justinian how did it get its name in 51 AD?] 08:33, 26 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| : It must be a typo. The earliest reference to Ioannina dates back to 510 AD, although that does not mean that the town was founded in that year.] 18:33, 14 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ''' | |||
| ===>Only the official language names.Do not add other languages names.''' | |||
| :::Pardon me but the url you offered above ] isn't a real argument for the Albanian name. There is not a single source that uses the Albanian form in the entire first page. Actually the first 2 books you mention in your list ] and ] are simply written by authors "Janina Fisher and Renee". There is no reference to this city at all.] (]) 02:58, 18 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| The link to the source of the population statistics seems to be dead. ] 01:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::@]: {{tq|Pardon me but the url you offered above ] isn't a real argument for the Albanian name. There is not a single source that uses the Albanian form in the entire first page.}} Are you trying to make a joke? The first one says ''If Janina were lost, the whole Greek insurrection...'', the second one ''the pachaship of Janina'', etc. Let's not lose all sense of integrity. | |||
| ::::That said, there are plenty of results that are not in reference to the city. @] maybe you could check some more specific searches which only include references to the town itself? ] (]) 19:09, 18 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::::This url "Janina Greece" has (still) more than 100.000 results and almost only refer to the city. I am optimistic reaching consensus. ] (]) 19:44, 18 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| Please, search for "Janina Greece". That is also the reason why I also searched for this one. Still has more results than "Ioannina" and therefore more than 10%. I think you have to accept it and not trying to find more and more excuses. ] (]) 17:20, 18 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Alt. names == | |||
| The third URL. ] (]) 17:23, 18 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| If we have the Greek names at the top of the ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], and ] articles, I see no reason why we should make an exception for Ioannina. This is common practice on Misplaced Pages. <span style="font-family:monospace, monospace;">]]</span> 06:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::: The quality of your urls are extremely low and your arguments far too weak (mostly 19th century crap), but still the links you offer use the Yannina spelling. Lets make a serious search on googlescholar in post-2000 English scholarship: | |||
| :I put a link to the other names of Ioannina in the very beginning of the article and you come back reverting what I edit making idiotic comparisons with the names of (currently) Turkish places, (that is, the plain transliterations of their original Greek names). You're ridiculous. ]] 07:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *Janina: ] 3,810 vs | |||
| *Ioannina 28,000 ], | |||
| *and there is Giannina (a more correct spelling compared to Janina) ] 9,660. | |||
| "Yannena" is already at the lead no need to include the similar spellings. By the way if you want to present "Janina" as an Albanian name in those search your arguments are not strong at all. ] (]) 03:17, 19 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| : |
:Alex, why are you using the Greek version of a site? ] (]) 04:30, 19 October 2022 (UTC) | ||
| :::Alexikoua, your search still shows that <10% uses Janina. In addition to that, can you show me the quote in WP:NC that sources in the 19th/20th that use an alternate name are not accepted? And Othon I, I live in Germany, neither is "Janina" official here nor in English (obviously). Please, there is almost no other language that uses the name "Janina" than Albanian. Please don't come with more excuses. ] (]) 20:21, 19 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::If Ioannina had even some of the characteristics the places in Anatolia mentioned above have, i wouldn't mind to see the Turkish name in the top of this article. If it is just because a number of muslims lived in the city till 1923, do i have to remind that most of them spoke Greek? in addition, if the name in turkish is to be added ''just because the turks had conquered and ruled the city in the past'', tell me so, so i can "spread", legitimately, the greek names as far as ], ], ] and ], and maybe also the ], ], ] and ]. Regards ] 23:36, 6 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Also Alexikoua, the link that you've provided for Giannina, almost no single source in the first page refers to the city. Apart from that, can you source that Janina is an alternate spelling of Yannina? What you do all the time is hearsay. Again, it is no secret that Ali Pasha of Tepelene was Albanian, that is the reason why so many sources use the Albanian name and we all know that. ] (]) 20:27, 19 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::::This URL shows that "Janina Greece" has 21.200 results from the period 2000-now. I think we all can now agree that the Albanian name is needed in the lede. ] (]) 22:46, 20 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| {{comment}} It is indeed a common issue that editors with limited experience fail to understand that when searching for a term in GS should be taken with careful consideration because it could possibly cause friction and confusion. The word "Janina" is also the spelling of the city in various Germanic languages just for the record. Best ] (]) 08:09, 19 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The Turkish name can go, but what about the Aromanian & Albanian names? <span style="font-family:monospace, monospace;">]]</span> 23:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::AlexBach: I tell you for the n-inth time: "Jan(n)ina" is used in various languages, even a Greek transliteration uses this form which is the same spelling as Yan(n)ina (also in German Janina is spelled that same way). It would be complete fringe to insist that those hits (more than 90% of them) refer to an Albanian name. Also per wp:NC that's already part of the name section. I see no reason why you still insist to manipulate wp:NC.] (]) 03:04, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::::By the way ] ''Janinë'' which is an (exclusively) Albanian form indeed receives just ... 24 hits, and even most of those works are in Albanian. ] (]) 03:09, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Janinë is the indefinte Albanian form that is not widely used in books due to the untypeable "ë". The correct definte form is Janina. In Germany, I've never seen anyone using "Janina" for "Ioannina". Please source your claims. For the third time, you can't tell me that an alternate spelling of an alternate name has over 20.000 results while the most common "Yan(n)ina" has below 1.000 results. A significant part of the books use the term "Janina" in connection with Ali Pasha of Tepelene, there's no doubt that they're not refering to the Albanian one. ] (]) 18:01, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Manipulating? That is a little argumentative, isn't it? I am just following WP:NC while you are doing everything to not include that Alb. name in the lede. ] (]) 18:06, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Because it shouldn't be included. I am surprised nobody mentioned so far that Janina is also the name the city received during Ottoman times, see ]. User AlexBachmann will require more sophisticated searching methods to prove that most of those thousands of results when searching Janina refer to the Albanian name of the city or to the city itself in the first place. ] ] ] 22:27, 21 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::The Turkish name for the vilayet is "Yanya". Janina is still the Albanian form. And if you look on the URL that I've provided, you'll see that almost no book refers to the vilayet. The most books refer to Ali Pasha or Jews. ] (]) 22:14, 22 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::"Ioannina" from the period 2000-now hits 68.100 results . "Janina Greece" from the period 2000-now '''excluding''' the words "Ioannina" and "vilayet" hits 8.390 results . More than 10%. I think it's enough now. ] (]) 22:37, 22 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::@AlexBachmann: Janina is already in the name section and as SD pointed it's just the Albanian name. I'm still trying to understand what's your goal here.] (]) 02:43, 23 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Also, since you claim that you live in German, die "Stadt Jan(n)ina" refers to the German name of the city ]].] (]) 03:15, 23 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::I do live in Germany. Are you serious about those 200 results using Jan(n)ina? Even the German Misplaced Pages uses Ioannina and describes Janina as Albanian. A name '''has to be''' in the lede if more than 10% of the sources use it. Nothing more, nothing less. ] (]) 19:27, 23 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::"Stadt Ioannina" has by the way 3.520 results. ] (]) 19:28, 23 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::''A name has to be in the lede if more than 10% of the sources use it.'' really? Read this from wp:ncgn: ''Alternatively, all alternative names can be listed and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section immediately following the lead, or a special paragraph of the lead''. Don't change the guidelines according to your POV again please, Janina is also used in vernacular/demotic Greek ] so stop falsifying information here.] (]) 02:55, 24 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::I hope you know what "Alternatively" and "can" means? And I hope you don't take Google Translate as a serious source. "Stadt Ioannina" has more than 10x hits. | |||
| ::::::::::::::::''Relevant foreign language names ('''one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language''' or that is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted.'' (WP:NCGN) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::My point still stands. An alternate spelling of an alternate can '''not''' have more results than the most common alternate (Demotic) one. ] (]) 20:34, 24 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::::It's just double standarts. No Albanian names in Greece, but bomb Albanian ledes with Greek names. ] (]) 18:52, 25 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::No "double standards", there is no Albanian community there. You are deep in ] territory at this point. ] (]) 19:36, 26 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::::::Your are the one ignoring facts. There is no Albanian community. In case you somehow haven't noticed, this whole discussion is about the 10% sources using "Janina". Read the whole discussion before reverting ] (]) 19:40, 26 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::::Literally no one who has participated in this discussion agrees with you. ]. You are just repeating the same incorrect things over and over. ]. ] (]) 19:49, 26 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::::::::Hmmm, why doesn't anyone agree here? Because you don't want to, even if my points were 100% accurate. Please be more precise, what points do you think are incorrect? You threats do not scare anyone. I think we should let an admin decide, shouldn't we? ] (]) 20:08, 26 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::::::It's already been explained to you multiple times by multiple editors why your Google searches are incorrect. Yet each time you ] and ask "what's wrong with my searches". ] (]) 00:08, 28 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::::::::::You even fail sourcing "Janina" being a Demotic form of the Greek name. I excluded the term "Vilayet" and even "Ioannina" and it still has more than 10%. ] (]) 19:13, 29 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}} | |||
| ::::all the names are corruptions of the original Greek name and thus irrelevant. and neither populations of these nations were indigenous nor had a significant existence in the national and linguistic history of the city. ] (]) 09:47, 30 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| There are many transliteration schemes for the Greek names Ιωάννινα, Γιάννενα, and Γιάννινα, giving rise to many variants. Furthermore, the form ''Janina'' is also found in South Slavic languages; such as Serbian (Јањина) and Macedonian (Јанина). From the ''Administrative Subdivisions of Countries: A Comprehensive World Reference, 1900 through 1998'' (2010) by Gwillim Law, we read on page 153: | |||
| {{tq|Other names of subdivisions: These names are officially spelled with the Greek alphabet. There are many transliteration schemes, giving rise to many variant names. For English names, the spellings that are most often met in literature or news reports are used here. Ioannina: Ianina (French-variant); Janina (Serbian); Jannina, Yanina, Yannina (variants)}} | |||
| == The Jews of Ioannina == | |||
| Also, i don't think Ali Pasha's ethnicity is a valid argument in this discussion, considering that he used Greek as the language of his court, diplomatic communication, and formal correspondence. From ''The Muslim Bonaparte: Diplomacy and Orientalism in Ali Pasha's Greece'' (1999) by ], we read on page 63: | |||
| The Jewish community of Ioannina is extremely important in the history of the Jewish Diaspora. It was one of the earliest Jewish colonies established outside the land of Judea/Israel ... dating as far back as the first or second centuries Before the Common Era (BCE). | |||
| {{tq|Language was a central defining element in the identity of Ali, of his government, and of the district in general. Ali's natal tongue was Albanian, but he used Greek as the language of his court. The eighteenth-century phenomenon of Albanians and Greeks exchanging languages was fairly common. All diplomatic business was conducted in Greek, and much formal correspondence was written in Greek. There are many reports that even when Ali employed Albanian or Turkish in his personal correspondence, he wrote in the Greek alphabet, transliterating whatever tongue he was using into the alphabet most familiar to him. Ottoman, the formal bureaucratic language of the government in Istanbul, was entirely supplanted by Greek in Ali's lands.}} | |||
| This community is referred to as the Romaniot Jews, because in the early years of the Common Era these Jews attained full status as Roman citizens, a noteworthy achievement for any group of people outside Italy, let alone Jews living in Greece. The history of the Romaniot Jews was researched and document by Rae Dalven, PhD, of New York University. (Dr. Dalven, whose husband is a distant cousin of mine, is a descentant - as I am - of the Romaniot Jewish community). The majority of Jews in Greece were and are Sephardi Jews, i.e. refugees of the Spanish and Portugese Diaspora, which began in 1492. The Romaniot Jews, however, are a separate entity and avoided the Ladino speaking Sephardim. In fact, Ioannina had the second largest Jewish community in Greece - surpassed only by the Jewish community of Thessoloniki (Salonica)] 05:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)buddmar | |||
| Regardless, the Albanian variants are already included under {{alink||Name}}; in line with {{slink|MOS:ALTNAME|Separate section usage}} and {{slink|WP:PLACE|General guidelines}}. ] (]) 01:03, 31 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| Suggestion: There should be a link to the page about Romaniot Jews: http://en.wikipedia.org/Romaniotes <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 02:46, 13 August 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| ::Excellent presentation Demetrios.] (]) 16:28, 31 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::We all do know that Serbian uses the Cyrillic script, don't we? Aside from that it would be extraordinary to refer to a Slavic name in an English source. It definitely is a valid argument using his (Albanian) origin. Just because he used Greek in his court due to the large Greek population of his Pashalik. Do you think his Pashalik would have held one week if he selected Albanian as the only official language? What do you think are those 8.300 results refering to? Some invented name? Or an alternate spelling of an alternate (Demotic, ?) name while the most common Demotic form has below 1.000 hits? ] (]) 22:25, 7 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Alternative names (again!) ! == | |||
| ::::A deeper research on the sources you are pointing refer in fact the Greek demotic spelling of the city.] (]) 03:36, 8 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::::For example: ...? ] (]) 21:24, 10 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
| Why should we have Bulgarian, Albanian or "Aromanian"??? They are totally irrelevant for a number of reasons, mainly because Ioannina has never been a city influenced by these "cultures". I think these should go. If anyone has any serious objection with a strong basis, say it.--] (]) 08:28, 22 September 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Hmmm is that the link ] you claim that Janina refers to the Albanian name in all works that mention it?] (]) 03:55, 11 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::That's incorrect. It is this </nowiki>] link. As I said, this search exludes the terms "vilayet" and the standard "Ioannina". ] (]) 19:07, 11 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :Read the "Alt. names" section above. This is standard practice on Misplaced Pages. <span style="font-family:monospace, monospace;">]]</span> 04:59, 24 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I would like to hear if you agree or disagree on this point with me. ] (]) 23:25, 12 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::You really believe that based on those books ] the reference to Janina refers to the Albanian name? In fact it's not. The demotic Greek form also uses the same spelling as several editors are trying to explain to you.] (]) 03:31, 13 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
| Is the standard practice putting in names that apply to languages of the wider geographical region (The Balkans)? So should for exemple London article also mention the French,German,Gaelic,Norse,Roman (Latin),Dutch,etc. names?? I agree with the Turkish name only, because there is a linguistic connection and possible etymology (ayan-->ayannena-->Yannena). All other names are totally irrelevant (especially Bulgarian) and also justify certain nationalistic claims (Albanian). And I do not see why there is the need of the vlach name since the vlachs never inhabited the city.--] (]) 15:07, 24 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :The Aromanian name can stay, since the Aromanians were and still are one of the major components of the city's Greek population, even though the Aromanian language is not spoken there now, nor was ever the majority language (even the Aromanians themselves have been bilingual since they appear in history). Te Bulgarian name can go, since the Bulgarians never were an important part of the population, and the city never played any sort of a role in the Bulgarian history. The Albanian name can also go, since Albanian is not spoken there any more (apart from by some modern immigrants), nor it ever was the majority language (at least never according to history). In addition, it has not played a role in the Albanian history, giving the fact that it never was part of an Albanian state. Lastly, from the moment the Greek name is missing from cities of Albania, with a large Greek minority population, that have played an important role in Greek history and were part of various Greek states (e.g. ], ], ]-which mentions "Ancient Greek" in order to avoid any possible connection with the modern Greek Northern Epirotes-, ], and so on) I see no reason in having the Albanian name in Ioannina other than simple nationalism. Btw, Michael IX the White, the name Ioannina has nothing to do with Turkish. As a Greek speaker, I bet you see the obvious: Πόλη του Ιωάννη (referring to Saint John)-the fact that the name is mentioned in ]'s time (early 6th century AD) leaves no place for any possible Turkish connection. Turkish folk etymologies have been pushed in various Misplaced Pages articles (e.g. in ]) for political reasons, beyond the scope of historical and linguistic fields. --] (]) 15:11, 26 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| I agree with Hector, since Albanian cities and territories such us Vlore, Kolonje, have not the Gree k name, we can delete the Albanian name of Ioannina, using the same arguments. | |||
| The 1st line of Vlore article is really to making someone lauph. It has the 'ancient Greek' name, and then explains that it may derives from another more archaic (pre-Greek) form...] (]) 15:37, 26 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ==Albanian language== | |||
| Read the history page of Municipality of Ioannina: | |||
| from 1200 "Έναντι αυτού του στυγνού καθεστώτος, οι Αλβανοί Ιωαννίτες φέρονται, κατά πληροφορία, ότι ζήτησαν προστασία από τους, Αλβανούς φυλάρχους." | |||
| until 1917 "Η Ιταλία είχε εισβάλλει δια θαλάσσης, με στόχο την ανεξαρτησία της Αλβανίας και την μείωση του Ελληνισμού προς όφελος των Αλβανικών πληθυσμών. | |||
| Η Ιταλική κατοχή των Ιωαννίνων, λήγει στις 28 Σεπτεμβρίου του 1917" | |||
| there are plenty of sources mentioning the albanian population only in the history page of the Municipality of Ioannina webpage | |||
| ] clearly states that names can be used if: | |||
| "Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language o'''r is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place'''" | |||
| There is no way the ] not to be used in this page.] (]) 13:39, 23 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :Actually, from the municipality's website we can't really conclude anything about the notability of their presence. In my view these names reflect the city's rich history and should stay. I don't see how their inclusion could raise suspicion of nationalist POV-pushing, unlike other not so notable places in Epirus. Both Bulgarian and Turkish are acceptable also. ] you'd have to find sources that speak of a notable presence, that would be either with lots of them mentioning Albanians or at least one stating clearly they were a significant group, in numbers or whatever. Just FYI.] --] (]) 20:12, 25 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| Turkish and Bulgarian have certainly nothing to do with nationalism, but (at least Bulgarian) are irrelevant. Ok, Turks did live in the city for quite some time but I don't think they're more relevant than that. I think Aromanian is also irrelevant, as there has never been a Vlach community in the city itself. | |||
| But that's the first time I hear about an Albanian community in Ioannina and truly, the municipality site confirms nothing. The Albanian name could certainly be connected with nationalist claims over all of Epirus. And per WP:NCGN, you could say that Albanians still live in Ioannina, but they are not ''native'' to it. WP:NCGN at least implies that the population should be native. | |||
| And by the way, the site refers to history of the entire region of Epirus.--] (]) 20:31, 25 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| : Not saying Bulgarian ''has'' to be included, but the city was ruled by Bulgaria's stronger tsars in the Middle Ages: not only by Samuel and Ivan Asen II, but also by Simeon the Great. That makes the name no less relevant than Albanian, as the Albanians haven't ever ruled the city to my knowledge. '']]]'' 10:58, 26 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :"Έναντι αυτού του στυγνού καθεστώτος, οι Αλβανοί Ιωαννίτες φέρονται, κατά πληροφορία, ότι ζήτησαν προστασία από τους, Αλβανούς φυλάρχους." | |||
| '''οι Αλβανοί Ιωαννίτες''' (Albanian Ioannians) isn`t this a proof that there was an albanian community in there. this paragraph is from ioannina.gr, the official site of the municipality in subpage] (]) 20:50, 25 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::Can you give me the exact date in the page? Αλβανοί Ιωαννίτες means Albanians residing in Ioannina, not Albanians from Ioannina, as there were French in Ioannina,Russians in Ioannina and others. Ioannina was anyway the most important city of western Balkans and it was impossible not to attract people from non-Greek ethnicities as well.--] (]) 21:15, 25 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::Give me a break: There is no ''Alvanos Athineos'' today... Αλβανοί Ιωαννίτες, means Albanians of Ioannina. It`s on year 1367, and later on...] (]) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment was added at 21:41, 25 November 2008 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| ::: Given the geographic proximity and the spread of the Albanian ethnicity in that period, I'd call it very likely that there was a native Albanian community in the city, although I can't speak about its size. '']]]'' 10:58, 26 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| We do not include (or exclude) foreign names in lead sentences to satisfy the hypothetical historical claims of this or that group, so all of you, spare us the futile debates. We include or exclude names to the extent they are interesting to outside readers. Names listed in a lead bracket are utterly boring. Names within the context of encyclopedic information can be highly interesting. . ] ] 23:33, 25 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| Well, I agree with FP in this, there is no need for other than the Greek name to be included here and that is because the city is and has been Greek. A whole list of the same name in other language versions is not really needed if there is not an etymological connection or some other important way they're connected.For example check Jerusalem. There is only the Hebrew and Arabic name even though the city has been an important centre of (Babylonian, Egyptian,) Persian, Greek, Roman, "Crusader" (that includes all Northern European languages) and Turkish administrations. --] (]) 17:01, 26 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :Lets make a new '''standard'''. If we remove here the Albanian and Aromanian names, than we should remove the greek name in Vlora page. Do you agree? All this is against ]] (]) 17:28, 26 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::Aulon was founded by Greeks. The (original) Greek name has to be there because it is important.--] (]) 17:50, 26 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :: Are you offering a new standard and suggesting that we stick to the old one at the same time? How's the Greek name of Vlora in your way? You can move the Vlora names to the history section and provide a linguistic and historical treatment if you like that, but ] is not a reason to "make a new standard". What I'd suggest is that you take a break away from the computer, relax a bit and then rethink this entire dispute: from the point of view of an outsider, it's ridiculous to revert Fut and me. The Albanian name remains in the article, it even remains in the intro, content is added with Fut's commentary on the etymology, and there is no information lost whatsoever. Where's the problem? I hope you're not obsessed with the first line of an article... Come on now, accept that your reverts are premature and quit the stupid revert war, there's better stuff to do here. There's already a consensus and your suggestion is not it. '']]]'' 17:49, 26 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::"...but ] is not a reason to "make a new standard"..." No No, there is a ], which states what I say, we need a new ], in order to have a standard, wich would allow us to remove albanian and aromanian name in here.] (]) 18:12, 26 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::At the risk of going round and round in circles over something that has already been discussed to death, the Greek and Italian names in ] are important for no other reason than that they are used ''in modern English literature'' when referring to the city in historical contexts. I don't see how any of that applies to ''Janninë'', which is just a minor phonological variant of the alternate Greek name that we do list anyway. This goes to both sides in this debate: for Christ's sake, stop thinking of these listings as if they were symbolic marks of possession or badges of recognition of this or that ethnic group's importance. ] ] 17:53, 26 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::: ''Janninë'', which is just a minor phonological variant of the alternate Greek name. Who says that? But, whatever, lets change ]] (]) 18:12, 26 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: We needn't. ''"Alternatively, all alternative names can be moved to and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section immediately following the lead, or a special paragraph of the lead; we recommend that this be done if there are at least three alternate names, or there is something notable about the names themselves."'' Which is exactly what I was proposing. By the way, ''of course'' "Janninë" is a minor phonological variant of "Jannina". It is entirely predictable and regular that Albanian will have feminine nouns ending in ''-ë'' where Greek has ''-a''. ] ] 18:16, 26 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::That`s right, but in this case even the greek name should be put in the name, or etymology section. These are the rules my friend...] (]) 18:34, 26 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: What "rules"? It's a guideline, it needs to be handled in such a way that it makes ''sense'', first and foremost. The Greek is the primary, official name. You are evidently still thinking in terms of national possession marking, and that makes everything you say invalid. ] ] 18:45, 26 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Ok, go on] (]) 19:00, 26 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| Yet I don't understand what this has to do with Aulona! Just because the Albanian name won't be included in the lead in a non-Albanian city that happens to be Greek, you remove the Greek name from a city that was founded by Greeks?? Don't forget that consensus about this page will not decide what will be used in any other. Two articles are not the same as two cities are not the same. Except if you see this as an ''eye for an eye'', which would be totally pointless. I can give no other explanation anyway.--] (]) 19:22, 26 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :On ] please] (]) 19:29, 26 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| : The entire thing is ridiculous: the city was never in Albania, it never had a sizable Albanian population, and the Albanian name is a different spelling of the common Greek name, just like Bulgarian Янина (''Yanina''), Aromanian ''Ianina'', Serbian Јањина/''Janjina''. What's the point of this entire dispute? Emphasizing some Albanian nationalist point I don't understand? '']]]'' 20:10, 26 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| According to the same arguements ] should state the Greek name too. The link proves that there was a considareble number of Greeks there sometime at 19-20th cent.]--] (]) 22:22, 26 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ==Names== | |||
| I had my proposal written on my first edit, on the section "name". Find the references for what you say. I hope what you said while reverting my edit, (substiansaly challenge this account) was not a threat!] (]) 12:39, 27 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :Your content proposal does not include an explanation about the origin of the foreign names. To add a fact tag, you're either saying there is nothing obvious about it that doesn't need a reference or that there is another view on the matter which challenges that of the current version. --] (]) 13:37, 27 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::Indeed, "challenge this account" in the sense of: provide an alternative explanation (sorry, didn't even occur to me there was a possible double meaning in there. :-) Are you seriously saying you are of the opinion the linguistic connections might be some other way round, or are you just using the "fact" tags for tactical disturbance? ] ] 13:45, 27 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::Ok, sorry about the misunderstanding. My objection is:<br />::1. We don`t know the etymology of "Ioannina"(is Ioannina the original name?).<br />2. We don`t know the etymology of Janena and Janina (are they just a reflection to Demoteke, a reconfiguring of the name? the original name perheps?).<br />3. We don`t know if the Albanian and Aromanian variants "reflect" this suposed etymology (Jani is a name in Albanian, as Ian in Aromanian, so Janina and Ianina may be just "the city of John", which it means)<br />I do not challenge the meaning of the word, it is the city of John, in whatever possible language.] (]) 13:48, 27 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Well, if "city of John" is the original meaning, then ''Ioannina'' is by necessity the original form, because it was of course originally named ''by Greeks'' and ''in Greek'', by its founders. And ''Jani'' is a name in Albanian only because that, too, was borrowed from Greek, rather obviously. ] ] 13:54, 27 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::: P.S.: Actually, there just ''might'' be slightly more to this story than I thought yesterday. Babiniotis in his Greek dictionary hints that there might be some alternative etymology based on Turkish-Arabic ''ayan'' ('lord') and that the link to "John" would be some kind of folk etymology. But I have absolutely no idea how that should be historically possible, given that the city name is attested much earlier than any Turkish influence in the area. Weird. (Normally Babiniotis is reliable enough about etymologies.) ] ] 14:01, 27 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Babionits is surely a ], so he should be added. I think that we are not sure if Ioannina was the name when it was founded.<br />For your first edit, let me argument the oposite: '''Rather obviously, ''Jani'' is a name in Albanian only because that, too,''' is a Hebrew biblic name, which was, too, '''borrowed''' by '''Greek'''s. '''If "city of John" is the original meaning''' of ''Ioannina'', '''then''' it does not mean that '''''Ioannina''''' is the original name. If ''Ioannina'' is the original name, than it '''is by necessity the original form, because it was of course originally named ''by Greeks'' and ''in Greek'', by its founders'''.] (]) 14:07, 27 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: Except that ''Ioann-'' to ''Jan-'' reflects a number of characteristic sound changes that happened within the Greek language and are entirely regular there. Have fun working out if the same sound changes could also have occurred independently in Albanian and led to the same result, if it had taken the original Biblical ''Yôḥānnān'' directly without Greek interference. (Plus, of course, we all know that Christianity in Albania was always mediated through the medium of the Greek liturgical language, for many centuries.) ] ] 14:15, 27 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::From Joan to Jan in albanian is normal. The fonetic changes from "oa" to "a", and from "o" to "a" and "a" to "o" are usual, the 2 first for the tosk dialect, and the third for the gegh dialect. On the "liturgic language", the inhabitants of albania adhered to christianity since the 2nd-3rd century, but the greek language became the official language of the byzantine empire, and thus of the orthodox christianity only in the 7th century. So, such a "liturgical borrowing", would be a bit strange.] (]) 14:40, 27 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Actually, are we sure it was founded by Greeks? It is not strange to be founded by another civilisation. Eg. one of the theories of the foundation of Tirana is that it was founded by persian merchants. Something like that may have been even here] (]) 14:12, 27 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: That would be for you to find out. ] ] 14:15, 27 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: I`d see for that, but please consult again Babiniotis and add his etymology. On the other hand I will see what Cabej says for the name, and I will ad him tomorrow.] (]) 14:40, 27 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ===names, again=== | |||
| All foreign names are included in the lead, there is no need to re-add them again in the first line. This is really not necessary. Also, there is no reason why some foreign names should be given precedence over others. ] (]) 23:56, 10 June 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :You should revert yourself. The source clearly says it was a main town of Albanian population, so Albanian is not a foreign or "neighboring" but the name of its own inhabitants. --<sub><span style="border:1.5px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></sub><sup><small>]</small></sup> 00:02, 11 June 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::What? And I can bring hundreds of sources that claim the opposite. ] (]) 00:06, 11 June 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :: Stop it already. This idiotic names obsession needs to end. ] ] 00:07, 11 June 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::True, I guess that both Sulmues and Athenean can get many sources etc. but that's not the subject of the article. If Sulmues wants to mention that it was also inhabited by Albanians he can write a brief sentence about it.--<span style="background-color: maroon; color: white">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 00:13, 11 June 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::But I hardly believe he can find something desent to support that. According to the city's history: ]. | |||
| ::::@Zjarri: You had been already adviced to stop this nationalistic madness ]].] (]) 07:53, 11 June 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Alexikoua if Sulmues has sources about it why shouldn't he add it? There's nothing wrong or nationalist with it.--<span style="background-color: maroon; color: white">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 08:20, 11 June 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: Alexi, ''please''. The Osswald article you cite is talking about the freaking 15th century. What does that have to do with anything? ] ] 08:45, 11 June 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Since the lead section already contains alternative names, Albanian too, I dont see why this is necessary. @Fut.: Of course this is not connected with the alternative name we are discussing. I've answered to Zjarri's proposal& gave an example about the city's past (contradicting) demographics. ] (]) 08:57, 11 June 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::: How on earth is the claim that the city had no Albanian inhabitants in the 15th century "contradicting" the claim that it had some at a later stage? As for the name in the lead sentence, I quite agree, it's unnecessary. I'd only consider giving some English transcription of the popular name, "Yannina" or something of the sort, a more prominent place in the lead, rather than its Greek version. The point here is not whether it's Albanian or whatever; the point is merely that such forms have been historically common in English, and still are. ] ] 09:08, 11 June 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Yes I agree, this form is also very popular in google. About the medieval stuff, I admit that I've created choronological confusion, since 'Sulmues' snippet ] propably talks about 19th century. | |||
| However, Osswald is contradicting some old comments by Balkanian about the same issue a few sections above ]) ].] (]) 09:57, 11 June 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == History confusion == | |||
| There may be some confusion regarding the early history of the place and its foundation as a city. According to relatively decent history page (not technically a RS, but decently written): | |||
| * the city wasn't immediately called Ioannina when it was founded (i.e. ''if'' it was founded) in the 6th cent. | |||
| * there is no mention of Prokopius | |||
| * the hypothesis that Ioannina is a continuation of a 6th century settlement called after the earlier city of Euroia (Εύροια) is no longer universally accepted | |||
| * there is only one passing reference to a "bishop of Ioannina" in ecclesiastical records of 879. | |||
| * the first unambiguous attestation of the city under the name of Ioannina is from 1020. | |||
| We need to check this. Anybody got better sources? ] ] 09:59, 11 June 2010 (UTC) | |||
| I remember that Sakelariou mentions this comfusion according to the city's foundation. I've to check her the next hours.] (]) | |||
| FUTURE PERFECTs summary is accurate according to a quick look at epirus by ekdotike athenon which is a good source. (sakellariou BTW is the EDITOR not the author and he is MALE)..to answer some other points above the name of the city cant be albanian for obvious historical reasons but theres a theory that it might be a slavic toponym...also its inhabitants in the 19th century were mostly greekspeaking christians, even many of its muslims were greekspeaking and also its jews (romaniotes)..albanians were a minority guys] (]) 15:33, 11 June 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == Athenean deleting sources == | |||
| Athenean the source says Albanian center of power, so it's not up to you to decide how to rephrase that because that's synthing and Skendi is RS.--] (]) 18:35, 18 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Actually when we have detailed secondaries they are preferred instead of tertiarie sources per wp:rs. I've added 2, but there is a mountain of books that confirms the current version (Fleming is a nice one).] (]) 18:59, 18 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Alexikoua there is no contradiction between any of the sources so please don't try to remove them again like you did with Skendi when you added Sakellariou(for which a RSN will be added) and that's not a tertiary source despite the title.--<span style="background-color: maroon; color: white">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 19:07, 18 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::As I see you completely removed 2 sources: adding a -cn- tag instead and then adding a tertiary in the previous sentence. And of course this 'according to a Greek author' is the definition of disruption.] (]) 19:14, 18 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Well, Sakellarious ''is'' a Greek author. <s>Btw I don't know about Kushtrim but I can't really access the page(hopefully this isn't another dead link)</s>. It finally opened and it's a nice looking pdf but | |||
| *who is the author? | |||
| *who published it? | |||
| *when was it published?--<span style="background-color: maroon; color: white">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 19:22, 18 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Full info is here: ]. Also you are aware of her here ]: it's the second time you unsucessfull try to question a ] awarded publishing house.] (]) 19:40, 18 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't see what's so informative about the sentence. They held an assembly? So what? They held lots of assemblies all over the place. It's pretty clear what's going on here. Google books is searched by keywords e.g. "Ioannina+Albanians", and whenever the two appear in the same sentence, they are added to the article without any regard to encyclopedicity, but only to prove that Ioannina, like all of Greece, was predominantly Albanian. POV-pushing by gamin WP:RS. Well, it's not going to work. Skendi is not an RS and will be removed. As for the lede, what can I say. How exactly was Ioannina a "center of Albanian power". Ali himself relied on Greeks as much as Albanians, Greek was the language of his court, and he never showed the slightest interest in the Albanian national cause (which back then was dormant anyway). I also really fail to see why Shkoder and Kara Mahmud Bushati should be mentioned in the lede of this article. ] (]) 21:11, 18 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Reliable or not this specific part: ''During the spring of 1877 the Albanian leaders organized a congress in the city regarding the decisions of the Constantinople Conference'', gives no info. at all: obviously this congress didn't take at least one decision it is worthy to be mentioned in the specific work.] (]) 21:21, 18 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Of course it doesn't contain any info. ] (]) 21:25, 18 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
| (unindent)I'll expand both Alexikoua(in fact I'll also upload a picture), but please stick to the sources and don't make ''obvious'' or deductions.--<span style="background-color: maroon; color: white">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 22:19, 18 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Actually i would suggest you become more careful, -especially in lead- by naming 'Albanian centers of power' cities that there . | |||
| (unindent)I would suggest you become more careful because that's Winnifrith speaking about the late 20th century, while the first source is about the late 18th century. I'll also upload the pictures of the Albanian school of the city in 1911.--<span style="background-color: maroon; color: white">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 10:03, 19 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Then you should rely on secondaries which clearly reject your hypothesis.] (]) 10:14, 19 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
| (unindent)Which would those be, since the late 18th century doesn't contradict the late 20th century. Btw I found more about the spring 1877 congress --<span style="background-color: maroon; color: white">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 10:22, 19 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::You insist that this entity (Pashalik of Ioanina) was an Albanian center of power. Googlebooks has a diferrent opinion. Obviously an entity that its official language was Greek can't be termed Albanian center of power (typical wp:pov).] (]) 10:46, 19 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
| (unindent)I insist on using what the previous source says and nothing else(especially or deductions like the Greek language being official). This will be interesting to add too --<span style="background-color: maroon; color: white">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 11:06, 19 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Lets start again, an entity that uses only X language in all the courtly dealings this is the entity's official language ]] (very reasonble since the vast majority of the population was Greek ]). I would also appreciate if you read the relevant articles which are properly sourced.] (]) 12:18, 19 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::If the source says Albanian center and this is supported by other sources as well anything else is irrelevant. Btw Flemming doesn't say anything about Greek being official and she also mentions Albanian and Turkish being used as well so please don't make or deductions. --<span style="background-color: maroon; color: white">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 12:45, 19 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Since there is not a single secondary, but on the contrary this is completely rejected just with a simple gbooks search, I would suggest you avoid or deductions (hope its clear that a language used in a pashalik's court is also the official one).] (]) 12:56, 19 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Instead of gaming ], ZjarriRrethues would do well to familiarize himself with ]. Only a single, pro-Muslim source ever referred to Ioannina as a "center of Albanian power", so sticking that in the lead is a violation of ] and constitutes POV-pushing (to "prove" to the world how Albanian Ioannina was). Case closed. ] (]) 17:10, 19 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == Ottoman period section == | |||
| Large part of that section isn't even slightly related to the city, so it should be removed. A lot of people who weren't even from the wider region of Epirus are presented as people from the city and more than one-fourth of the section is about schools in Venice and their activities.--<span style="background-color: maroon; color: white">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 01:36, 28 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Just checked this section: everything is fine & everyone is related to the city. No need to remove the slightest information so far.] (]) 02:39, 28 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :The section is titled '''' and the first unrelated part is: | |||
| ''All four Greek printers in Venice were Ioannites: Nikolaos Glykys (1670), Andreas Ioulianos (17th C), Nikolaos Saros (1687) and Demetrios Theodosiou (1715) ''. Without questioning whether they were from the city of not, that's unrelated to the city itself.--<span style="background-color: maroon; color: white">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 11:34, 28 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::This is fine and relevant with a section named: "Ioannina as center of the Greek enlightenment": locals that were active in Venice and published thousands of Greek books.] (]) 14:11, 28 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::That's doesn't make that city a center, but Venice. Btw ''The ''Epiphaniou'' was established in 1647 by a Greek merchant in ], Epiphaneios, who had been a student in the ‘’School of Despoton’‘ in Ioannina before its closure. The ''Epiphaniou'' taught not only Grammar and Philosophy but also the ]. It continued operating until 1742.'' is also irrelevant to the city.--<span style="background-color: maroon; color: white">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 16:01, 28 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Epifaniou school was in Ioannina, not Venice, this means its relevant with this article. Epifanios, the founder, was a member of the diaspora, from Ioannina and merchant in Venice.] (]) 17:59, 28 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ==File:Ioannina Collage.jpg Nominated for Deletion== | |||
| {| | |||
| |- | |||
| | ] | |||
| | An image used in this article, ], has been nominated for deletion at ] in the following category: ''Media without a source as of 16 September 2011'' | |||
| ;What should I do? | |||
| ''Don't panic''; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. | |||
| * If the image is ] then you may need to upload it to Misplaced Pages (Commons does not allow fair use) | |||
| * If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no ] then it cannot be uploaded or used. | |||
| ''This notification is provided by a Bot'' --] (]) 12:22, 16 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
| |} | |||
| ==Landmarks== | |||
| There are some problems with this section. | |||
| # It is presented as a list | |||
| # Its referencing is mostly based on a newspaper article | |||
| # Reads too much like a tourist pamphlet | |||
| # The use of english is bad | |||
| # There is overlapping with other parts of the article (see for instance the information on the synagogue) | |||
| I removed the paralels drawn between Vrelli's museum and Tussaud's in London since they dont make much sense. The only similarity btw the two places is that they are both wax museums and they are not the only ones for that matter. I also removed the reference to the festival in Arachthos: It takes place several miles away from the city itself. | |||
| In term of the rest of the information provided in the section perhaps we could cluster similar places in small groupings: places of worship can go together (churches, mosques and the synagogue). Museums can form another group, then historical buildings etc. Another option is to merge the elements of the list according to different districts: "city centre", "castle", "island" etc would be the categories in this case. Any ideas? ] (]) 03:09, 12 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ==Places of worship== | |||
| Mosques are rare in Greece and there are two in Ioannina, both appearing on photographs in this article. Admittedly one is in a highly photogenic location, standing tellingly on the ruins of a demolished Orthodox church. Churches are by comparison commonplace, so it is not surprising there are not photographs of all the churches of Ioannina. Nonetheless, there are some which are very old, significantly older than the two mosques, especially the monasteries on the Pamvotis island, while the cathedral of St Athanasius is at least as beautiful and as old as the two mosques. There are also some beautiful churches from more recent periods, such as that of the Holy Trinity. I have the impression there was once a photograph of the cathedral. In any case, it would be nice to have one in the article.] (]) 09:53, 15 August 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ==Albanian community in Ioannina and Athenean's deletion== | |||
| Athenean please explain why you deleted a edit regarding the Albanian community in Ioannina. I have added a very credible source, that of Arthur Foss who served with Napolean Zervas' forces. He is an impartial observer and yes he came across Albanians during his travels in Ionannina. That a Albanian community existed during until the 1970s, whatever their numbers is important considering that Muslims once made up a substantial portion of the city's population and that people wanting to know about that community in Ioannina should be mentioned. Today in Ionanina the Jewish community is very small, but nonetheless they are mentioned in the article. Why not the Albanians ? In your the edit you state that that i have "Misuse of sources: twenty families is not a "sizable" community by any stretch". If that is the issue, then my edit should NOT have been deleted by any stretch, yet instead that "sizable" should have been substituted for "small". Otherwise something else is at work here. So Athenean please explain ? | |||
| ] (]) 17:12, 18 April 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :I have made the change which you said was a "misuse" of sources. Sizable now reads for small. Any other semantic issues. Arthur Foss thought that writing about these "small" numbers of Albanians was important enough for a mention in his book on Eprius and his chapter on Ioannina. Does such information not suffice for Misplaced Pages too, if the source is credible ? | |||
| ] (]) 17:33, 18 April 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::The life of "eight people" in the demographics section is completely wp:undo at its worst level. That city hosted a tiny Moslim community some of which were also of Albanian origin" is more than enough for this section.] (]) 20:27, 19 April 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The life of eight people Alexikoua is the remnant of a community which predated the creation of the Greek state. They were not "hosted". I am concerned about the language in which you use regarding Albanians, considering that these people that i wrote about are Greek citizens. They were the last of a large local Muslim (its spelt ''Muslim'' not "Moslem" by the way) community made of Greek and Turkish speaking Turks and Albanians that were there for centuries. With the population exchange, Albanians of Muslim origin became exempt from the exchange of populations. Some families as was outlined in what i wrote (using a very credible source, i might add) remained. I see that mention is made regarding the Jewish community who dwindled to a very low number ! Why not the Albanians being mentioned. Your rationale for the editing is problematic to say the least Alexikoua. | |||
| ] (]) 02:52, 20 April 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I can only assume you are out of serious arguments in this case and thus you turned to ] violations and exaggerations, which I kindly suggest to avoid. As I've said, the existence of a tiny community is ok to be mentioned, but anything else is wp:undo] (]) 19:30, 20 April 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::You accused me of very serious POV and deleted all my edits which now you say only had a few issues about 'wording'. That is a very serious allegation to make, without discussing it first on any talk page and you did NOT (for those interested see the article ] and the history section of the page). You stated yourself in the Cham Albanians article that most of the edits were 'ok'. I resorted to those measures in haste (after you deleted everything and called it POV !) as i was not aware of the procedures. As for you "are out of serious arguments", i think i made my point since you state in the same sentence "the existence of a tiny community is ok to be mentioned". Its in marked contrast to what you wrote regarding the deletion on the history page. And i quote you "rv "20 families" are not a sizable community, completely wp:undue", even though i had changed the wording after Athenean pointed it out, and before you deleted even that edit also. I did change it to "small numbers". Yet that somehow that did not suffice. Then you should only have deleted part of what was written, not the whole thing, and discussed the rest on the talk pages. As an editor you don't delete if you think something should be there, but needs more work. Your editing skills are questionable after these actions. Even words in your reply have issues about maybe what sentiments you have towards Albanians. For example Albanian Muslims were not "hosted", even though they were Greece's citizens. Citizens are not "hosted". Tourists, refuges, migrants and so on are "hosted". The living conditions of the Albanian community are important to be mentioned. Maybe not in the lead, but what Arthur Foss wrote should be in the footnote, as with other articles when something contentious is mentioned. Alexikoua, talk, discussion first, then delete if it is proven that the source is dodgy. As an editor with all those barnstars, you should be the first to go by that principle. Or is it selective ? | |||
| ] (]) 03:45, 21 April 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::It appears you continue with ] violations pretending that you are accused, even using as an argument a disagreement in another article. Per ] my reverts are fully justified, not to mention that you falsified the sources in another case (the claim of a supposed Albanian domination of Thesprotia in early 11th century).] (]) 13:11, 21 April 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :"falsified" is a matter of your interpretation and you did not discuss it first. People can go back to the history page and they themselves can see that you wrote regarding reverting the edits. You accused me of POV, of edits that just corrected dead links (the Euromosaic example). What was i to make of that. No bias ? Or poor editorship in the Chams Albanians article. Discussion first. Failure of that, then POV accusations as you did. In the end the source for Albanians regarding Ioannina stands and the reasons for its complete removal did not suffice in the first place by either Athenean or yourself. Anyway, i will give you the benefit of the doubt. | |||
| ] (]) 03:26, 22 April 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::(ignore continuous trolling) It's far too obvious that you should be carefull with pov issues: in fact when someone pretents that an ethnic group was dominant in a region, while not the slightest historical record existed yet about it, emmmm that's unfortunately far too obvious to be left unnoticed.] (]) 06:38, 22 April 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Alexikoua, i am discussing the matter with you, that is not trolling. Deleting first without going to the discussion page, especially when the source and footnote are given i must say goes against what wikipedia is about. I interpreted that as POV and partially overacted. It wont happen again as i become more familiar with the guidelines. You should thank Antidiscriminator about that, otherwise i might have been banned, and we would not be able to have these exchanges especially regarding the Cham Albanians topic. Tell him thanks :) Regarding the word ''Dominating'', it has multiple meanings. It can mean outright control or be prominent. I should have been more succinct. When i used the word, it was with the second meaning in mind, being prominent. Baltsiotis did write that the Albanian speaking area was compact in most of Thesprotia and part of the Preveza area. And other authors as i have cited in the edits point to that direction in the Chams Albanian article. Which means that sizable amount of people living in those areas were Albanian speakers (identity is another matter). As for the "slightest historical record existed yet about it", Albanians(or Albanian speakers) have been mentioned in the historical record as existing in the region (opposite Corfu) from at least the early 1200s. It is Greek authors who are pointing it out and who i cited. Your deletion was too obvious to be unnoticed with the accusation of POV, while later you say that the edits were ok just having some wording issues. It is there for all to see and what your rationale for deletion was first without even discussing it on the talk page. As a long time editor on English wikipedia you should have sent me a message on my talk page or the article talk page, especially as the edits i placed were in depth. It means you either did not read it (fully) or did not take into consideration what i wrote (because i am another person of Albanian heritage, maybe ???). If someone takes the time and effort to put such massive input like that, you don't ignore it as if it was some kind of vandalisation (like i said you even lumped into the POV accusation the Euromosiac link that i updated. I am still trying to work out how that was POV), which made me wonder if you even bothered to read the edits (or beyond the first one or two). Anyway, like i said i will give you the benefit of the doubt. | |||
| ] (]) 11:24, 22 April 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It appears you still reject the wp:BRD procedure. To say it with simple words, problematic edits can be removed instantly (like in this case) that's why R(revert) is the 2nd letter and D(discuss) the 3rd. If you believe that this is nonsense you are welcomed to propose your own procedure in the correspodent page (you can name it BDR).] (]) 07:20, 23 April 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::I do think there are issues with some of the procedures. There should be a better notification system regarding deletes for one. Anyway, highly doubtful that that input is taken from a user. When asking for advice from the administrators there was no reply, this was after the canvassing issue. So, i don;t have much faith in the system. Nonetheless, its important to engage with this wikipedia platform as many people come to it, and a lot of source that i or you have access to, they may not, so would not be able to make the case or necessary changes on a article. For example, goodness knows how long the Cham Albanians article would have had those issues of plagiarism, missing gaps in the knowledge and actual POV issues that have been allowed to linger for a few years now. | |||
| ] (]) 07:55, 25 April 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ==History section== | |||
| I have read the history section several times and I am reaching the conclusion that the periodisation used is rather problematic and the sections a little bit unbalanced in terms of their content. To begin with, the sections from antiquity up to -and including- Early Ottoman Period are short and lack adequate referencing but generally to the point. | |||
| The following period, however, (and here I partially agree with an author that commented on the same topic before) has some issues: | |||
| 1. The information provided is much more detailed, and -contrasted to the rest of the history sections- one might even add excessive. Maybe it makes more sense to move some of the passages to the Greek Enlightenment article and provide a link. That would balance the content of the article a bit. | |||
| 2. While the information in this section is indeed relevant to the city, I find that defining a whole period of one and a half century of its history *exclusively* in terms of Greek Enlightenment is unwarranted and gives undue weight to the importance of the intellectual developments in the town for modern Greece and Greek nationhood. I am not doubting here that what happened in Ioannina in this period did influence modern Greece significantly. It did and should be mentioned. At the same time, however, the Greek Enlightenment was not the only thing happening at the time in the city and I think that the title and the periodisation should change to reflect that. Ioannina was after all a major administrative center of the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans throughout those years and this story is almost totally lost in the discussion about the Greek Enlightenment. I guess what I am trying to say is the following: Why is Ioannina as a Centre of Greek Enlightenment more important in defining a period of the city's history than , say, the reign of Ali Pasha? | |||
| 3. On a related note: the division to periods in history makes perfect sense but only until 1430. The previous editors identified key events that warranted the transition from one period to another. Antiquity and Byzantine years are far back in time and without much historical material but they are generally well established historical periodisations. The despotate deserves a section of its own and the next period correctly starts with the milestone of Ottoman conquest. The next three periods however seem arbitrary. There is nothing in the text that signifies what makes 1647 such an important year. Why 1647 and not 1645 or the year of Dionysios' uprising (which had a major impact in the city and its population)? And why does the next period end in 1830 and not for example with the fall of Ali Pasha which again signaled major changes for the city (don't forget the population was decimated during the siege and took sometime to recover). To connect this point to the previous one, I fear that by overemphasizing the Greek Enlightenment and granting it a whole period of its own, the article actually sacrifices the history of the city to tell the history of the Greek Enlightenment to which the history of the city is a mere episode. | |||
| 4. To sum up, I believe the periodisation should change to better reflect milestones in the history of the city. If need be, there can be a separate section on the role of the city for the Greek Enlightenment as we have one for the Jewish community but having Greek Enlightenment dominating a whole period seems to me rather problematic. | |||
| ] (]) 22:11, 9 September 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm looking forward for some detailed proposals, especially in the field of the Greek enlightenment. Nevertheless I'm reluctant about trimming essential information about the englightenment, which appears closely connected to the city as a major center of this movement. | |||
| ::About the period of the Despotate, Ioannina played a major role only for half a century in 14th century, after the temporary loss of Arta. But I wouldn't label this period "Despotate", it was in fact a short-term Latin/Serbian dominated city-state. I doubt if this can warrant a seperate section.] (]) 23:07, 9 September 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::I fully agree with the change of 1647. Dionysos uprising was signifant for the history of the city.] (]) 23:10, 9 September 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Regarding the despotate, I have a copy of Nicol which will be shipped to me soon from my previous address. I can have a look to fix some of the refs. Now regarding the section itself, I agree Ioannina was only the 2nd city of the despotate but there are some things worth mentioning: 1) that it gained in prominence because of the despotate 2) I think Thomas made extensive repairs to the castle 3) The 'Chronicle of Ioannina' seems to be an important source and probably deserves a line or two 4) and of course the changes in status and control already present in the text since they give an idea of the history of the place in those 200 years. I would be inclined to keep it as a section since the despotate offers for a neat periodisation (has a clear date of establishment and dissolution, at least when it comes to the surrender of Ioannina) and was a distinct political entity albeit forming part of the byzantine commonwealth (there is an element of continuity in that despite rule changing hands all the time, especially after the assassination of the last Komnenos all rulers tried to legitimize themselves by assuming the title of the despot). On the other hand, if we are to lose it we can probably merge it with the previous two sections (it fits well with the byzantine years and the antiquity section is way too short to stand alone) under something around the lines of: "Antiquity and Middle Ages". Of course, if we decide to keep it we can still merge the two first sections anyway. | |||
| ::: Re: Greek Enlightenment. My main concern was not with the information per se but with its domination of the periodisation which blurred everything else that was happening in the same period. I am still uncertain about whether a new section is warranted or if we can somehow reorder the existing material. I 'll give it some thought and will return to it tomorrow. ] (]) 23:46, 9 September 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::: I gave it some further thought regarding the periodization and here are some ideas. I believe we have two clear milestones that could serve to separate the periods of the city's history, namely 1430 and 1913. For the '''period before 1430''' and, depending on the available material to be covered, we can have three (as its stands now: antiquity-byzantium-despotate), two (Early period and despotate) or one (Origins and Middle Ages) period. The '''Ottoman Period''': This is by far the trickiest because it is the longest (1430-1913). Of course we could only have one period about Ottoman Ioannina but it would end up that long that it would need a separate article (as is the case in the GA of ] where most of history is delegated to separate articles). What seems to me a logical way of dividing it based on important shifts in the towns history would be in three periods: '''1. Early Ottoman (1430-1611/18?)''' -> that would include surrender of the town up to the moment when the Christian population lost their privileges and the Ottomans took over the castle. '''2. The heyday period (1618-1822)''' -> that would include the increase in prosperity of the town as discussed by Celepi and others, Greek Enlightenment and the rule of Ali Pasha who actually favored the aforementioned process. (The Greek Enlightenment part needs to be better integrated to a historical narrative though as I mentioned in the previous comments). Personally I believe that the period that Ioannina was the seat of a semi-autonomous pashalik (1788-1822) should form a separate section but that would leave the previous 150 years with way too few information in a very small section. '''3. Late Ottoman Years (1822-1913)''' -> up to the Balkan wars. Major event here would be the fire and reconstruction by Rasim Pasha and the efforts of modernization by the Ottomans (bibliography might be difficult to find here though). final period would be '''After the Balkan Wars''' -> siege and surrender to Greek army, exchange of populations and its impact on the city, WWI (if enough material), certainly WWII (bomber raids, occupation, holocaust, probably some mention of the Edelweiss division and its atrocities around Ioannina) and then the rest of the 20th c. with urbanization, university (if deemed important for history of the city) etc. Do they make any sense? ] (]) 14:11, 12 September 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I think this is basically a good schema. For the earlier period I think the simplest (Origins and Middle Ages) is best. The other divisions make sense, though personally I don't like "heyday,"; it suggests a bunch of Ottomans dancing around waving a finger in the air. ] (]) 15:19, 14 September 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::All proposals look nice. I would be happy if I can contribute to this large scale improvement. Also note that the post WWII period is poorly represented, thus a number of additions may be needed there to deal with ] issues. ] (]) 16:25, 13 September 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: Littlewindow, I can't think where you got the idea about Ottomans dancing around... i meant more or less that the town flourished during said period and 'heyday' was the first word that came to mind to describe it. Anyhow, those were merely suggestions for titling the periodisation. Any alternative titles are most welcome. I will return to the middle ages and fix the rest of the unsourced material in one of the following days and when done I can merge those sections. Both you and Alexikoua seem to agree on that. Of course if you come across any good historical sources feel free to add.] (]) 22:51, 15 September 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{unindent}}. Huh, I had not seen this discussion earlier. Anyhow, although a bit late, and as I am the guy who added most of the material to the section, I am broadly in agreement with ]'s suggestions, as well as with the copyedits he made in December. Well done. Just a request, next time, please ping me or any other concerned user directly, otherwise it is unlikely the discussion will be noticed. Cheers, --] ] 18:06, 8 January 2018 (UTC) | |||
| == Remind == | |||
| :::::Just a remind. Some important naming conventions which the article's lead violates (] and ]): ''Once a Names or Etymology section or paragraph is created, the alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first line. As an exception, a local official name different from a widely accepted English name should be retained in the lead. (Foreign language: Local name; known also by several alternative names)".''' If the case is exceptional, common sense may be applied to ignore all rules. Please discuss to decide whether this is an exceptional case or not.] (]) 04:08, 6 December 2015 (UTC) | |||
| == Map == | |||
| Could the article have a map please showing the location of Ioannina within Greece? Thanks <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 08:27, 1 August 2016 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
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| Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 12:44, 12 April 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ==Far too much detail about 90 years of medieval history== | |||
| As for the 1340-1430 period the article offers extended information on the political developments of the Despotate of Epirus. In fact some piece of information is given in such a detail that a typical reader will find it simply boring about Ioannina: thus we have full titles of various lords, how each clan & warlord moved around Epirus how many times happened to besiege the city unsuccessfully, even the various intermarriages between the clans. This kind of detailed information belongs to Despotate of Ioannina and the other small states that were involved in the specific events. A trimming is necessary in the case of this article (and the other articles about towns & cities that continue to survive as local administrative centers in Ottoman era and then as part of Greece). On the other hand vital information about the city and its population about that period (i.e. the existence of guilds as stated by the Chronicle of Ioannina) is absent.] (]) 09:01, 9 September 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :This is a rather late response to this post but as I worked a bit on rephrasing this section now, maybe I can leave a summary here for other users in case it is needed or in case someone found my changes counterproductive: | |||
| # Removed parenthetical reign dates which could easily be double-checked elsewhere | |||
| # Removed some events that looked to me of small importance to the city (for example: who mentioned it, what happened in Arta or neighbouring areas, details about various leaders etc). | |||
| # Merged a few sentences here and there, for example where the discussion was covering several sieges in a sequence. | |||
| # Probably more radical changes can be made but I am a bit hesitant to remove cited content without discussion. | |||
| ] (]) 19:20, 7 December 2017 (UTC) | |||
| == External links modified == | |||
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| == Landmarks (four years later) == | |||
| I made some changes to the landmarks section based on the points I raised (much) earlier: | |||
| # New material: I mostly added new material about monuments (19th and 20th century) and new references from the municipality tourism organisation webpage. I thought those would be better than the newspaper article that was used as the only source in previous versions. | |||
| # Removal of old material: I removed some sentences about the castle and the church of St. Athanasios that needed better sourcing (they had no sources). | |||
| # Sections: Reorganised the discussion into three sections Castle, Island, City. Initially I expanded the discussion of Ottoman mosques to include ottoman-period monuments but this would overlap with the other two categories anyway. Then I decided to go for a geographical division rather than the previous one that was Island, Castle, Mosques, Churches, Synagogue as it seemed to me it was unfairly biased against non-religious buildings. | |||
| # Repetitions: those remain an issue. ] (]) 20:27, 5 December 2017 (UTC) | |||
| == history section == | |||
| I have been trimming the history section trying to bring it in line with the ] of WikiPproject Cities. As such I am trying to remove material that says little about the city and where it came from or is too detailed. A quick summary: | |||
| # '''Middle Ages:''' Removed as much as possible from the extra background that was there about different people without omitting the transitions of power in the city. As Alexikoua mentioned above, there is stuff missing here like the Chronicle of Ioannina and of course any discussion of society, demography, economy etc during the period. | |||
| # '''Last Ottoman century:''' This was a bit problematic: | |||
| ::* Almost ''half'' of the text was about Albanian and Greek committees that were formed in the city in the span of 2 years. This was hardly the most important thing happening in the city at the time. After all, as per the sources cited, the Albanian committee was not very active and the Greek one only issued a memorandum (which did ''not'' result in the transfer of the city to Greece, this happened only as a result of the Balkan Wars much later). I thus summarized those whilst keeping all sources cited in place. Probably they can be summarized even further but I would like to also see what other users think. | |||
| ::* The text explains that the first branch of the Ottoman Bank in Greece was opened in Ioannina. This statement makes little sense as Greece's borders at the time were way further to the South. Did the editor who added it mean "of today's Greece" meaning the territories that now form Greece '''or''' do they mean that the first Ottoman Bank branch that was opened in Greece (as in: within the Greek state) was in Ioannina (presumably at some point after 1913)? This was unclear to me so I tagged it for clarification.] (]) 01:42, 9 December 2017 (UTC) | |||
| == Ioannina collage photos == | |||
| The previous infobox photo has been removed from Wikimedia Commons, and since then, the infobox lacked a good city photo. For now, we have been using either a photo that is showing the castle by the lake, from a distance, or, a cropped off panoramic photo of the city, but both weren't really that great photos (the castle photo by no means is giving a glimpse of the city's notability to the readers, and the panoramic photo contains no notable details - hardly any of the city's landmarks can be seen). Due to this, I think it is a very good time for Ioannina to get a collage showing more than just a castle or a panorama, a collage which could reflect better on the city's rich historic past and cultural heritage on the infobox. | |||
| I made one myself, but, frankly, the variety of photos to pick from Wikimedia Commons for Ioannina isn't as sheer and satisfactory as I hoped. In my collage, I have tried my best to have only those photos that could represent and highlight some of the city's most famous locations and monuments, chosen, while at same time have various aspects of city's life and heritage not excluded from it (from historical buildings, to cultural buildings, from religious or touristic areas, and so on). | |||
| However, while I found some photos of museums, parks, castles, towers, and other significant city landmarks, I couldn't find any decent photos that could be used as a representative of the city's modern economy, education (Ioannina is the educational center of Epirus) or industry. In fact, photos of shopping malls, offices and industries are non-existent on Commons. But this doesn't mean they do not exist. Ioannina features plenty of such buildings, and I can confirm that as I have been there myself. Furthermore, the university of Ioannina has some photos on the Commons, but these are of pretty poor quality. For this reason I have decided to leave them out of the collage (at least, for the time being, or until someone or I go the myself and take some photos just for this purpose). | |||
| Here are all the photos picked from Commons for the collage: | |||
| * The Castle of Ioannina and the lake: | |||
| * The ferry pier and park: | |||
| * A characteristic street in the Old Town: | |||
| * The Municipal Museum and the minaret: | |||
| * Τhe City's famous Clock Tower: | |||
| * The University of Ioannina's monastery: | |||
| These places are among the most notable and visited locations in the city, if not the most. Which, is to say that the collage is more representative of the city. The collage is here, with the necessary tone adjustments, crops, and resizings to have all the photos fit: | |||
| * The city collage: | |||
| I was going to place it on the infobox but ] suggested that the collage shall be put for discussion on the talk page first before using it, which is a good idea. I could like to hear opinions on it and whether there are any problems with the photos. --] <sup>(] | ])</sup> 15:34, 24 May 2018 (UTC) | |||
| :Given that I generally am rather sceptical about the use of collages in infoboxes, I will not invest too much work and prestige in discussing this, but since it was me that asked for talk page consensus before addition, I will present my view. | |||
| :Regarding the choice of motives, I do not have any strong feelings. I could add one alternative motive: The Silversmithing Museum in Its Kale, the newest and possibly best of the industrial history museums of the Piraeus Bank Group Cultural Foundation (piop.gr), is a very nice building against the castle wall. I do not know how difficult it is to find a picture with a free license. If that is a problem, I might possibly have one of my own I could upload (but I am not certain). | |||
| :Regarding the choice of individual pictures, most of them seem OK, but not much more. The technical quality (resolution) of the monastery picture is not very good; it might pass, since the size is small, but it wouldn't hurt finding a better one. The Old town picture is a bit dull, with no specific point of interest; it could be from any "old town" in Greece. The ferry dock picture has very much grey road and a rather prominent dustbin, but it can probably be cropped to a nice version. | |||
| :One thing is finding good pictures for a collage, another thing is to compose the collage itself. This is usually the most difficult part (and the main reason I find collages problematic). It is important that the overall effect has a good balance in distribution, size and colour. In the proposed collage, there are imho too many ways that balance breaks down. When bottom right is much broader than bottom left, this does not go well with top right and middle right also being a little broader than top left and middle left. When top left is higher than top right, it adds to the lopsidedness. My suggestion would be: First to make sure that top left and top right have the same height (and hence middle left and middle right same height, but not necessarily the same as the top ones), so that the pictures make three horizontal bands. Second to secure that the three vertical dividing lines are not all on one side of the centre. If the bottom band has the narrow picture on the left, like now, the two top bands should either be split both in the centre or both slightly to the right, or alternatively the top one in the centre and the middle one to the right. But this would also depend on the "weight" and the overall colour of the pictures. | |||
| :And that is the last part, matching the pictures to each other. As the proposal stands now, the top left and the top right are screaming against each other, the left one with the top half of the picture sky, the right one with no sky at all, but lots of green at the top. Also the middle and bottom right are much into dark and blue, while the left ones are more towards shades of grey, which creates an imbalance. | |||
| :I see now that while I was preparing this comment, the collage has been placed in the infobox. That is disappointing, since the idea was {{tq|discussion on the talk page first before using it, which is a good idea. I could like to hear opinions on it}}. Any changes in the collage now will be visible changes to the article, which was exactly what I hoped to avoid when I asked for talk page consensus ''before'' placing any collage. --] (]) 19:54, 27 May 2018 (UTC) | |||
| :::Hoped to hear some feedback, but {{tq|none was coming for days}} and I thought why not just add it, and if any problems arise, we will fix them anyways even if that means a few extra revisions at article's history, which is not a problem. After all, it is an work in progress and the article is bound to be expanded, not just on infobox but on the main body as well, so history revisions are only bound to increase, duh. As for your feedback on collage, you have raised some good points. I wish I had noticed them myself. When I get some time, I will try your suggestions and post them here. --] <sup>(] | ])</sup> 12:09, 28 May 2018 (UTC) | |||
| ::::This is not a high profile article, and there are probably not too many people having it on their watchlist, so three days waiting for feedback is not much. One reason I suggested a RfC was to get more input. Also, I was not worried about the number of revisions in the article's history. My concern was that the visual presentation of the article should preferably be stable over time, not exposed to changes back and forth while the matter is discussed. However, that is now a moot point, since you have put back the old infobox. --] (]) 13:40, 28 May 2018 (UTC) | |||
| :::::High profile article or not, this Talk Page usually has responses to new discussions coming within a reasonable time. A RfC to get input from editors who otherwise are not genuinely interested in Ioannina and were not to get involved to the discussion about collages, is not what I am seeking here. I don't want the kind of disappointing RfC we had at Thessalonica, where I had expected editors knowing Thessalonica well, to come, and to give usfeful input for the Collage, but never happened, with the mere exception of one or two editors, and especially I am referring to you. I don't want that disappointment to repeat here. So I do not think a RfC is going to be much better for a small city like Ioannina when it wasn't as productive and without enough input for a large city such as Thessalonica. I always found RfCs useful, but this time at Thessalonica they were not, and is the reason I won't be calling one. You, however, alone, at Thessalonica you have provided me much more help than the entire RfC had, in my view. Which is the reason I prefer '''you''' over calling for a RfC again, but I understand that you are not exactly a big fan of collages and such. So from now and on, if you excuse me, for every collage I will be making for each one of the 20+ regional capital cities of Greece, the collages will simply be posted to Talk pages, without initiating 20+ RfCs just for them. People are free to comment and give freedback. If no editors ever show up in the discussion, then I guess there should be no problem with the collages, but if there are editors involved in the discussion and nothing good of an agreement comes out of it, then obviously the Collage will simply not be posted at all, or be postponed for another time and with the necessary corrections that could soothe the other editor's concerns. Still, the idea of calling a RfC for them all is rather tiresome, and importantly, not as practical as we have had hoped them to be, and prefer just regular talk page discussions by editors who are '''genuinely''' interested in these particular cities. Have a good day. --] <sup>(] | ])</sup> 14:38, 28 May 2018 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I applaud your hard work on the collage, SilentResident, but I too am against collages for the reasons TU-nor mentioned. I find that a single picture, usually a panoramic, is a better choice for city infoboxes. In this case here we have an excellent panoramic that gives a very good overview of the city for the reader. ] (]) 21:31, 29 May 2018 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Thanks, dear, it took me around 3 hours to complete the collage. But it is all right, if you think the new panoramic photo is decent enough replacement for the deleted panoramic photo that was in place before it, then so be it. We keep that panoramic photo in the infobox, and I drop the city collage away. | |||
| ::::::::However I do really like some of the collage's photos so I hope you don't mind putting them individually into the article's various sections (or to bottom end's gallery). They are great addition, which show how Ioannina, despite being a capital of one of the poorest (per GPD) regions of EU and Greece, it is still a city with noteworthy architecture, charm and beauty. --] <sup>(] | ])</sup> 23:37, 29 May 2018 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Of course. ] (]) 23:44, 29 May 2018 (UTC) | |||
| == New infobox == | |||
| Just a few comments to the new infobox: | |||
| *Red dot on map is pointing wrong. Ioannina is further NE. | |||
| *In old infobox there was also a hide/show map showing "Location within the region", same as used in all municipality articles. | |||
| *The entry "Municipalities: 6" is nonsense. The current single municipality is the result of 6 ''former municipalities'' fusing into one. Those six are now municipal units, but that is hardly worth mentioning in the infobox. | |||
| *The entries for "Metro" area and population are wrong. A metropolitan area cannot be smaller than the urban area. Can we even speak about a metro area of Ioannina? Athens, Thessaloniki, Piraeus and perhaps Patras, yes, but from there? Anyway, 80,371 is the 2011 population of the municipality unit, 65,574 is the 2011 population of the urban agglomeration. | |||
| *Lowest elevation has to be wrong, as Ioannina has no sea level area. Highest elevation of the municipality has to more than 480 (the lake is 479). --] (]) 06:34, 28 May 2018 (UTC) | |||
| :::Much appreciated feedback. And sorry for that. Still I do not understand exactly what Urban and what Metro do mean. These terms are confusing. I have undone the new infobox, for until at least I get some free time to look upon the issues and fix them. Again sorry. --] <sup>(] | ])</sup> 12:04, 28 May 2018 (UTC) | |||
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Civil war
The area was occupied by the British sometime around the civil war post WW2. There might be some information in this regard to flesh out the modern history section. I wouldn't know where to start for sources on that though Zindor (talk) 00:46, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- No, it wasn't. German occupation was followed by Greek resistance control (EDES resistance group then ELAS resistance) and finally under Greek government forces. Alexikoua (talk) 20:57, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Alexikoua, there might have been power-play between EDES and the British but they were there
in numberand assuming control. You may discover this in Greek sources; I unfortunately have this on an un-citable but good first hand account. Zindor (talk) 22:17, 31 May 2022 (UTC) - Just to re-factor my point there, that was more a comment in general, it's my understanding that the numbers in Ioaninna itself weren't the levels one might expect, a relatively small number of British but tasked with the same expectation of maintaining British interest/control, and re-supplied at long intervals from Athens. I'm simply suggesting research into this might generate some more information for the article. Regards, Zindor (talk) 23:31, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Alexikoua, there might have been power-play between EDES and the British but they were there
Adding Albanian name to the lede
Ioannina has About 125.000 results at Google books (1) Janina has 792.000 results (2) And "Janina Greece" has 160.000 results. (3) The Albanian name is clearly needed in the lede. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:53, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
- If no one has something against it, I'll add the name in near future. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:07, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
- We've been over this. WP:IDHT. Khirurg (talk) 22:01, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
- So you're constantly ignoring WP:NC. Just think about it, "Janina" has more results than the Greek version. One time you're saying the name requires to be used by 10 % of sources, and now this. I'll bring it to the Noticeboard of the Admins if you continue doing this, also stop your disruptive editing and discuss first until consensus is reached. Stop your POV. If you don't like the Albanian names in Epirus, you can say goodbye to the Greek ones in Albania. Double standards. AlexBachmann (talk) 23:19, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
- Also, I'd like to hear the statement of @Alexikoua in this case. AlexBachmann (talk) 23:32, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
- Jannina is one of the transliterations in demotic Greek: Yannena and Yannina is the most correct way to spell it in English (though in German this would be Jannina = from demotic Greek Γιάννενα). I call the city that way too as most Greek speakers do. Yannena is already in lead. It's not the Albanian form which happens to be quite similar in spelling.Alexikoua (talk) 23:53, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
- Also, I'd like to hear the statement of @Alexikoua in this case. AlexBachmann (talk) 23:32, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
- So you're constantly ignoring WP:NC. Just think about it, "Janina" has more results than the Greek version. One time you're saying the name requires to be used by 10 % of sources, and now this. I'll bring it to the Noticeboard of the Admins if you continue doing this, also stop your disruptive editing and discuss first until consensus is reached. Stop your POV. If you don't like the Albanian names in Epirus, you can say goodbye to the Greek ones in Albania. Double standards. AlexBachmann (talk) 23:19, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
- We've been over this. WP:IDHT. Khirurg (talk) 22:01, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
You can not use that as an excuse. Alone "Yannena" has only about 350 results on Google books. And you want to tell me that the alternate spelling of an alternate name has more than 100.000 results? Please, don' take it too far. Also, I think the Albanian form is widely used due to the fact that Ali Pasha was Albanian and the sources prefer the Albanian name. So, does the whole thing fit now? More than 10% of the sources (>100% actually). As you wanted. AlexBachmann (talk) 00:35, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
- Pardon me but the url you offered above ] isn't a real argument for the Albanian name. There is not a single source that uses the Albanian form in the entire first page. Actually the first 2 books you mention in your list ] and ] are simply written by authors "Janina Fisher and Renee". There is no reference to this city at all.Alexikoua (talk) 02:58, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Alexikoua:
Pardon me but the url you offered above 23 isn't a real argument for the Albanian name. There is not a single source that uses the Albanian form in the entire first page.
Are you trying to make a joke? The first one says If Janina were lost, the whole Greek insurrection..., the second one the pachaship of Janina, etc. Let's not lose all sense of integrity. - That said, there are plenty of results that are not in reference to the city. @AlexBachmann maybe you could check some more specific searches which only include references to the town itself? Çerçok (talk) 19:09, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
- This url "Janina Greece" (3) has (still) more than 100.000 results and almost only refer to the city. I am optimistic reaching consensus. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:44, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Alexikoua:
- Pardon me but the url you offered above ] isn't a real argument for the Albanian name. There is not a single source that uses the Albanian form in the entire first page. Actually the first 2 books you mention in your list ] and ] are simply written by authors "Janina Fisher and Renee". There is no reference to this city at all.Alexikoua (talk) 02:58, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
Please, search for "Janina Greece". That is also the reason why I also searched for this one. Still has more results than "Ioannina" and therefore more than 10%. I think you have to accept it and not trying to find more and more excuses. AlexBachmann (talk) 17:20, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
The third URL. AlexBachmann (talk) 17:23, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
- The quality of your urls are extremely low and your arguments far too weak (mostly 19th century crap), but still the links you offer use the Yannina spelling. Lets make a serious search on googlescholar in post-2000 English scholarship:
- Janina: ] 3,810 vs
- Ioannina 28,000 ],
- and there is Giannina (a more correct spelling compared to Janina) ] 9,660.
"Yannena" is already at the lead no need to include the similar spellings. By the way if you want to present "Janina" as an Albanian name in those search your arguments are not strong at all. Alexikoua (talk) 03:17, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
- Alex, why are you using the Greek version of a site? Botushali (talk) 04:30, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
- Alexikoua, your search still shows that <10% uses Janina. In addition to that, can you show me the quote in WP:NC that sources in the 19th/20th that use an alternate name are not accepted? And Othon I, I live in Germany, neither is "Janina" official here nor in English (obviously). Please, there is almost no other language that uses the name "Janina" than Albanian. Please don't come with more excuses. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:21, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
- Also Alexikoua, the link that you've provided for Giannina, almost no single source in the first page refers to the city. Apart from that, can you source that Janina is an alternate spelling of Yannina? What you do all the time is hearsay. Again, it is no secret that Ali Pasha of Tepelene was Albanian, that is the reason why so many sources use the Albanian name and we all know that. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:27, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
- This URL (4) shows that "Janina Greece" has 21.200 results from the period 2000-now. I think we all can now agree that the Albanian name is needed in the lede. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:46, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
- Also Alexikoua, the link that you've provided for Giannina, almost no single source in the first page refers to the city. Apart from that, can you source that Janina is an alternate spelling of Yannina? What you do all the time is hearsay. Again, it is no secret that Ali Pasha of Tepelene was Albanian, that is the reason why so many sources use the Albanian name and we all know that. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:27, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
- Alexikoua, your search still shows that <10% uses Janina. In addition to that, can you show me the quote in WP:NC that sources in the 19th/20th that use an alternate name are not accepted? And Othon I, I live in Germany, neither is "Janina" official here nor in English (obviously). Please, there is almost no other language that uses the name "Janina" than Albanian. Please don't come with more excuses. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:21, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
Comment: It is indeed a common issue that editors with limited experience fail to understand that when searching for a term in GS should be taken with careful consideration because it could possibly cause friction and confusion. The word "Janina" is also the spelling of the city in various Germanic languages just for the record. Best Othon I (talk) 08:09, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
- AlexBach: I tell you for the n-inth time: "Jan(n)ina" is used in various languages, even a Greek transliteration uses this form which is the same spelling as Yan(n)ina (also in German Janina is spelled that same way). It would be complete fringe to insist that those hits (more than 90% of them) refer to an Albanian name. Also per wp:NC that's already part of the name section. I see no reason why you still insist to manipulate wp:NC.Alexikoua (talk) 03:04, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- By the way ] Janinë which is an (exclusively) Albanian form indeed receives just ... 24 hits, and even most of those works are in Albanian. Alexikoua (talk) 03:09, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- Janinë is the indefinte Albanian form that is not widely used in books due to the untypeable "ë". The correct definte form is Janina. In Germany, I've never seen anyone using "Janina" for "Ioannina". Please source your claims. For the third time, you can't tell me that an alternate spelling of an alternate name has over 20.000 results while the most common "Yan(n)ina" has below 1.000 results. A significant part of the books use the term "Janina" in connection with Ali Pasha of Tepelene, there's no doubt that they're not refering to the Albanian one. AlexBachmann (talk) 18:01, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- Manipulating? That is a little argumentative, isn't it? I am just following WP:NC while you are doing everything to not include that Alb. name in the lede. AlexBachmann (talk) 18:06, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- Because it shouldn't be included. I am surprised nobody mentioned so far that Janina is also the name the city received during Ottoman times, see Janina vilayet. User AlexBachmann will require more sophisticated searching methods to prove that most of those thousands of results when searching Janina refer to the Albanian name of the city or to the city itself in the first place. Super Ψ Dro 22:27, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- The Turkish name for the vilayet is "Yanya". Janina is still the Albanian form. And if you look on the URL that I've provided, you'll see that almost no book refers to the vilayet. The most books refer to Ali Pasha or Jews. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:14, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
- "Ioannina" from the period 2000-now hits 68.100 results (4). "Janina Greece" from the period 2000-now excluding the words "Ioannina" and "vilayet" hits 8.390 results (5). More than 10%. I think it's enough now. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:37, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
- @AlexBachmann: Janina is already in the name section and as SD pointed it's just the Albanian name. I'm still trying to understand what's your goal here.Alexikoua (talk) 02:43, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
- Also, since you claim that you live in German, die "Stadt Jan(n)ina" refers to the German name of the city ]].Alexikoua (talk) 03:15, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
- I do live in Germany. Are you serious about those 200 results using Jan(n)ina? Even the German Misplaced Pages uses Ioannina and describes Janina as Albanian. A name has to be in the lede if more than 10% of the sources use it. Nothing more, nothing less. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:27, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
- "Stadt Ioannina" (6) has by the way 3.520 results. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:28, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
- A name has to be in the lede if more than 10% of the sources use it. really? Read this from wp:ncgn: Alternatively, all alternative names can be listed and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section immediately following the lead, or a special paragraph of the lead. Don't change the guidelines according to your POV again please, Janina is also used in vernacular/demotic Greek ] so stop falsifying information here.Alexikoua (talk) 02:55, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- I hope you know what "Alternatively" and "can" means? And I hope you don't take Google Translate as a serious source. "Stadt Ioannina" has more than 10x hits.
- Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or that is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted. (WP:NCGN)
- My point still stands. An alternate spelling of an alternate can not have more results than the most common alternate (Demotic) one. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:34, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- It's just double standarts. No Albanian names in Greece, but bomb Albanian ledes with Greek names. AlexBachmann (talk) 18:52, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
- No "double standards", there is no Albanian community there. You are deep in WP:IDHT territory at this point. Khirurg (talk) 19:36, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
- Your are the one ignoring facts. There is no Albanian community. In case you somehow haven't noticed, this whole discussion is about the 10% sources using "Janina". Read the whole discussion before reverting AlexBachmann (talk) 19:40, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
- Literally no one who has participated in this discussion agrees with you. Your searches are incompetently conducted. You are just repeating the same incorrect things over and over. Enough already. Khirurg (talk) 19:49, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
- Hmmm, why doesn't anyone agree here? Because you don't want to, even if my points were 100% accurate. Please be more precise, what points do you think are incorrect? You threats do not scare anyone. I think we should let an admin decide, shouldn't we? AlexBachmann (talk) 20:08, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
- It's already been explained to you multiple times by multiple editors why your Google searches are incorrect. Yet each time you ignore it and ask "what's wrong with my searches". Khirurg (talk) 00:08, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
- You even fail sourcing "Janina" being a Demotic form of the Greek name. I excluded the term "Vilayet" and even "Ioannina" and it still has more than 10%. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:13, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
- It's already been explained to you multiple times by multiple editors why your Google searches are incorrect. Yet each time you ignore it and ask "what's wrong with my searches". Khirurg (talk) 00:08, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
- Hmmm, why doesn't anyone agree here? Because you don't want to, even if my points were 100% accurate. Please be more precise, what points do you think are incorrect? You threats do not scare anyone. I think we should let an admin decide, shouldn't we? AlexBachmann (talk) 20:08, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
- Literally no one who has participated in this discussion agrees with you. Your searches are incompetently conducted. You are just repeating the same incorrect things over and over. Enough already. Khirurg (talk) 19:49, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
- Your are the one ignoring facts. There is no Albanian community. In case you somehow haven't noticed, this whole discussion is about the 10% sources using "Janina". Read the whole discussion before reverting AlexBachmann (talk) 19:40, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
- No "double standards", there is no Albanian community there. You are deep in WP:IDHT territory at this point. Khirurg (talk) 19:36, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
- It's just double standarts. No Albanian names in Greece, but bomb Albanian ledes with Greek names. AlexBachmann (talk) 18:52, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
- A name has to be in the lede if more than 10% of the sources use it. really? Read this from wp:ncgn: Alternatively, all alternative names can be listed and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section immediately following the lead, or a special paragraph of the lead. Don't change the guidelines according to your POV again please, Janina is also used in vernacular/demotic Greek ] so stop falsifying information here.Alexikoua (talk) 02:55, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- "Stadt Ioannina" (6) has by the way 3.520 results. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:28, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
- I do live in Germany. Are you serious about those 200 results using Jan(n)ina? Even the German Misplaced Pages uses Ioannina and describes Janina as Albanian. A name has to be in the lede if more than 10% of the sources use it. Nothing more, nothing less. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:27, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
- Also, since you claim that you live in German, die "Stadt Jan(n)ina" refers to the German name of the city ]].Alexikoua (talk) 03:15, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
- @AlexBachmann: Janina is already in the name section and as SD pointed it's just the Albanian name. I'm still trying to understand what's your goal here.Alexikoua (talk) 02:43, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
- "Ioannina" from the period 2000-now hits 68.100 results (4). "Janina Greece" from the period 2000-now excluding the words "Ioannina" and "vilayet" hits 8.390 results (5). More than 10%. I think it's enough now. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:37, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
- The Turkish name for the vilayet is "Yanya". Janina is still the Albanian form. And if you look on the URL that I've provided, you'll see that almost no book refers to the vilayet. The most books refer to Ali Pasha or Jews. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:14, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
- Because it shouldn't be included. I am surprised nobody mentioned so far that Janina is also the name the city received during Ottoman times, see Janina vilayet. User AlexBachmann will require more sophisticated searching methods to prove that most of those thousands of results when searching Janina refer to the Albanian name of the city or to the city itself in the first place. Super Ψ Dro 22:27, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- Manipulating? That is a little argumentative, isn't it? I am just following WP:NC while you are doing everything to not include that Alb. name in the lede. AlexBachmann (talk) 18:06, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- Janinë is the indefinte Albanian form that is not widely used in books due to the untypeable "ë". The correct definte form is Janina. In Germany, I've never seen anyone using "Janina" for "Ioannina". Please source your claims. For the third time, you can't tell me that an alternate spelling of an alternate name has over 20.000 results while the most common "Yan(n)ina" has below 1.000 results. A significant part of the books use the term "Janina" in connection with Ali Pasha of Tepelene, there's no doubt that they're not refering to the Albanian one. AlexBachmann (talk) 18:01, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- By the way ] Janinë which is an (exclusively) Albanian form indeed receives just ... 24 hits, and even most of those works are in Albanian. Alexikoua (talk) 03:09, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- AlexBach: I tell you for the n-inth time: "Jan(n)ina" is used in various languages, even a Greek transliteration uses this form which is the same spelling as Yan(n)ina (also in German Janina is spelled that same way). It would be complete fringe to insist that those hits (more than 90% of them) refer to an Albanian name. Also per wp:NC that's already part of the name section. I see no reason why you still insist to manipulate wp:NC.Alexikoua (talk) 03:04, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
There are many transliteration schemes for the Greek names Ιωάννινα, Γιάννενα, and Γιάννινα, giving rise to many variants. Furthermore, the form Janina is also found in South Slavic languages; such as Serbian (Јањина) and Macedonian (Јанина). From the Administrative Subdivisions of Countries: A Comprehensive World Reference, 1900 through 1998 (2010) by Gwillim Law, we read on page 153:
Other names of subdivisions: These names are officially spelled with the Greek alphabet. There are many transliteration schemes, giving rise to many variant names. For English names, the spellings that are most often met in literature or news reports are used here. Ioannina: Ianina (French-variant); Janina (Serbian); Jannina, Yanina, Yannina (variants)
Also, i don't think Ali Pasha's ethnicity is a valid argument in this discussion, considering that he used Greek as the language of his court, diplomatic communication, and formal correspondence. From The Muslim Bonaparte: Diplomacy and Orientalism in Ali Pasha's Greece (1999) by Katherine E. Fleming, we read on page 63:
Language was a central defining element in the identity of Ali, of his government, and of the district in general. Ali's natal tongue was Albanian, but he used Greek as the language of his court. The eighteenth-century phenomenon of Albanians and Greeks exchanging languages was fairly common. All diplomatic business was conducted in Greek, and much formal correspondence was written in Greek. There are many reports that even when Ali employed Albanian or Turkish in his personal correspondence, he wrote in the Greek alphabet, transliterating whatever tongue he was using into the alphabet most familiar to him. Ottoman, the formal bureaucratic language of the government in Istanbul, was entirely supplanted by Greek in Ali's lands.
Regardless, the Albanian variants are already included under § Name; in line with MOS:ALTNAME § Separate section usage and WP:PLACE § General guidelines. Demetrios1993 (talk) 01:03, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- Excellent presentation Demetrios.Alexikoua (talk) 16:28, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- We all do know that Serbian uses the Cyrillic script, don't we? Aside from that it would be extraordinary to refer to a Slavic name in an English source. It definitely is a valid argument using his (Albanian) origin. Just because he used Greek in his court due to the large Greek population of his Pashalik. Do you think his Pashalik would have held one week if he selected Albanian as the only official language? What do you think are those 8.300 results refering to? Some invented name? Or an alternate spelling of an alternate (Demotic, ?) name while the most common Demotic form has below 1.000 hits? AlexBachmann (talk) 22:25, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
- A deeper research on the sources you are pointing refer in fact the Greek demotic spelling of the city.Alexikoua (talk) 03:36, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
- For example: ...? AlexBachmann (talk) 21:24, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
- Hmmm is that the link ] you claim that Janina refers to the Albanian name in all works that mention it?Alexikoua (talk) 03:55, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
- That's incorrect. It is this link. As I said, this search exludes the terms "vilayet" and the standard "Ioannina". AlexBachmann (talk) 19:07, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
- I would like to hear if you agree or disagree on this point with me. AlexBachmann (talk) 23:25, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- You really believe that based on those books ] the reference to Janina refers to the Albanian name? In fact it's not. The demotic Greek form also uses the same spelling as several editors are trying to explain to you.Alexikoua (talk) 03:31, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
- I would like to hear if you agree or disagree on this point with me. AlexBachmann (talk) 23:25, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- That's incorrect. It is this link. As I said, this search exludes the terms "vilayet" and the standard "Ioannina". AlexBachmann (talk) 19:07, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
- Hmmm is that the link ] you claim that Janina refers to the Albanian name in all works that mention it?Alexikoua (talk) 03:55, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
- For example: ...? AlexBachmann (talk) 21:24, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
- A deeper research on the sources you are pointing refer in fact the Greek demotic spelling of the city.Alexikoua (talk) 03:36, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
- We all do know that Serbian uses the Cyrillic script, don't we? Aside from that it would be extraordinary to refer to a Slavic name in an English source. It definitely is a valid argument using his (Albanian) origin. Just because he used Greek in his court due to the large Greek population of his Pashalik. Do you think his Pashalik would have held one week if he selected Albanian as the only official language? What do you think are those 8.300 results refering to? Some invented name? Or an alternate spelling of an alternate (Demotic, ?) name while the most common Demotic form has below 1.000 hits? AlexBachmann (talk) 22:25, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
- Excellent presentation Demetrios.Alexikoua (talk) 16:28, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
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