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|date1 = 22 December 2014 |result1 = '''Delete and redirect''' |page1 = Cultural Marxism (2nd nomination) | |date1 = 22 December 2014 |result1 = '''Delete and redirect''' |page1 = Cultural Marxism (2nd nomination) | ||
|date2 = 6 September 2018 |result2 = '''No consensus to overturn''' | link2=https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2018_September_6 | |date2 = 6 September 2018 |result2 = '''No consensus to overturn''' | link2=https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2018_September_6 | ||
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| page3 = Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 September 11#Cultural Marxism | | page3 = Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 September 11#Cultural Marxism | ||
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== Semi-protected edit request on 1 May 2018 == | == Semi-protected edit request on 1 May 2018 == | ||
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::For further discussion, go to ]. See also ] as mentioned above by ]. Samwalton6 left the redirect fully protected, it just goes to a new place, the separate article on ], newly created on 11 September 2020. My guess is that this change of the redirect into an article will not be very controversial. The original problem was that people were trying to make Cultural Marxism into a real thing and not just a bugaboo. It would be helpful if somebody would officially close the discussion at ]. ] (]) 14:26, 11 September 2020 (UTC) | ::For further discussion, go to ]. See also ] as mentioned above by ]. Samwalton6 left the redirect fully protected, it just goes to a new place, the separate article on ], newly created on 11 September 2020. My guess is that this change of the redirect into an article will not be very controversial. The original problem was that people were trying to make Cultural Marxism into a real thing and not just a bugaboo. It would be helpful if somebody would officially close the discussion at ]. ] (]) 14:26, 11 September 2020 (UTC) | ||
:::{{re|EdJohnston}} {{done}} per ]. –<span style="font-family:CG Times">] ]<sup>]</sup></span> 16:03, 11 September 2020 (UTC) | :::{{re|EdJohnston}} {{done}} per ]. –<span style="font-family:CG Times">] ]<sup>]</sup></span> 16:03, 11 September 2020 (UTC) | ||
:Why is there no Cultural Marxism Misplaced Pages entry and why is is being redirected to a Conspiracy Theory page? ] (]) 17:50, 22 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
::"Cultural Marxism" was never the primary name given to the field that Misplaced Pages addresses as ]. The conspiracy theory isn't related to any "real Cultural Marxism", because the conspiracy theory isn't based on anything real, and the field of study you are talking about was never widely known as "Cultural Marxism". | |||
::Perhaps more to the point: repeated, widely participated discussions have consistently reached the consensus that the only encyclopaedic topic referred to as "Cultural Marxism" is the conspiracy theory. ], but there isn't any evidence that it actually has. ] (]) 02:18, 23 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Move discussion in progress == | == Move discussion in progress == | ||
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There is a move discussion in progress on ] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory crosspost --> —] 18:52, 11 September 2020 (UTC) | There is a move discussion in progress on ] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory crosspost --> —] 18:52, 11 September 2020 (UTC) | ||
:and on that page they say to come here? Looks like a Misplaced Pages conspiracy? :) ] (]) 09:41, 23 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
⚫ | == Convert to disambiguation == | ||
::That was back in 2020. People have been kvetching about this for ages and it never gets anybody anywhere. | |||
::There does not seem to be a redirect proposal active at the moment. The correct place to start one would be at ] but please let me save you some time before you go and bother them. The redirect is correct. It is not going to be changed. There is no magical rhetorical formula that you can contrive which will bamboozle us into changing it incorrectly. All you are doing is annoying people and it is time to stop doing that. --] (]) 18:21, 23 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Why is there no Misplaced Pages entry for "Cultural Marxism" and why is the page for Cultural Marxism diverting to a conspiracy Theory entry when Cultural Marxism is NOT a conspiracy theory? ] (]) 20:43, 24 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::2020 or 2010 is irrelevant! Cultural Marxism was an established academic field in the 1980s and 1990s and it is being misdirected to a page which claims Cultural Marxism is and always a far Right conspiracy Theory. How do Misplaced Pages correct this? ] (]) 20:47, 24 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
::And in case you think that Daniel's assessment is just a single voice, let me assure you that it isn't. --] (]) 20:20, 23 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::It doesn't matter if multiple editirs say Cultural Marxism should not have its own entry in Misplaced Pages and should instyead redirect to a Conspiracy Theory entry if they happen to be WRONG and Cultural Marxism is #NOT a conspiracy theory. How does one get Cultural Marxism to have its own actually factually true and reliable entry and not be misconstrued as a Conspiracy theory? ] (]) 20:46, 24 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::There are many cases where a topic name has multiple meanings and thus multiple articles. When there is a clear ], as in this case, then that is what the article of that name is about. The existence of article(s) about the other topic(s) is identified at the top of the primary article using a ] such as {{tl|other uses}}. So you would need to write an article (or section of an article) about the academic field and then use the hatnote mechanism to highlight it. Does that help? ] (]) 22:53, 24 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::Please note that Misplaced Pages's preferred article title for "Marxist cultural studies"/"the cultural turn in Marxism"/"cultural Marxism" is ]. You could propose to move that article to ], but an overwhelming consensus has concluded on at least five occasions that the main topic of "Cultural Marxism" is the conspiracy theory. ] (]) 00:55, 25 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
⚫ | == Convert to disambiguation == | ||
{{hat|This thread has been dead for more than a year. There is no point in trying to revive it.}} | |||
In the spirit of ], healthy compromise, ease of finding information, and in light of the lack of consensus in both ] and ] as to how the articles should be named, I've changed the page to offer links to both articles. Both articles have links to each other, and one of the few mutual agreements between both sides of the discussion on both of the pages concede that the term "Cultural Marxism" can refer to both the application of Marxist theory to critique of things other than class, or to the alt-right conspiracy theory that uses it as a basis. | In the spirit of ], healthy compromise, ease of finding information, and in light of the lack of consensus in both ] and ] as to how the articles should be named, I've changed the page to offer links to both articles. Both articles have links to each other, and one of the few mutual agreements between both sides of the discussion on both of the pages concede that the term "Cultural Marxism" can refer to both the application of Marxist theory to critique of things other than class, or to the alt-right conspiracy theory that uses it as a basis. | ||
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:::::You're welcome to open a new RFC to attempt to ]. You are not welcome to simply ignore the existing consensus because you ]. Your editing career is likely to be short if you continue edit-warring against established consensus. ] (]) 02:23, 22 December 2021 (UTC) | :::::You're welcome to open a new RFC to attempt to ]. You are not welcome to simply ignore the existing consensus because you ]. Your editing career is likely to be short if you continue edit-warring against established consensus. ] (]) 02:23, 22 December 2021 (UTC) | ||
::::: (e-c) The consensus reached consistently in many, many discussions since the 2014 ] AfD is that the conspiracy theory is the only RS topic with this name. If you are convinced of the contrary, "Redirects for Discussion" is the relevant venue. ] (]) 02:24, 22 December 2021 (UTC) | ::::: (e-c) The consensus reached consistently in many, many discussions since the 2014 ] AfD is that the conspiracy theory is the only RS topic with this name. If you are convinced of the contrary, "Redirects for Discussion" is the relevant venue. ] (]) 02:24, 22 December 2021 (UTC) | ||
::::That isnht true! Cultural Marxism was used decades before the Modern conspiracy Theory! For example Dennis Dworkin. Cultural Marxism in Postwar Britain: History, the New Left, and the Origins of Cultural Studies. (Post-Contemporary Interventions.) Durham, N.C.: Duke University Press. 1997. ] (]) 17:52, 22 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose disambig''': the term "cultural Marxism" refers to the conspiracy theory; they are one and the same. The redirect should stay (and perhaps should be EC protected, or fully protected). --] (]) 19:37, 22 December 2021 (UTC) | *'''Oppose disambig''': the term "cultural Marxism" refers to the conspiracy theory; they are one and the same. The redirect should stay (and perhaps should be EC protected, or fully protected). --] (]) 19:37, 22 December 2021 (UTC) | ||
*:No it doesnt and the talk sectioon of the redirect says that the Conspiracy Throry is a different topic to the previously established field of Cultural Marxism! | |||
*:For example | |||
*:Dennis Dworkin. Cultural Marxism in Postwar Britain: History, the New Left, and the Origins of Cultural Studies. (Post-Contemporary Interventions.) Durham, N.C.: Duke University Press. 1997. | |||
*:So why is this subject entry being redirected to a conspiracy theory? ] (]) 17:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
Bit underhand that Cultural Marxism redirects here, and not to Marxist cultural analysis page. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 16:28, 21 February 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | Bit underhand that Cultural Marxism redirects here, and not to Marxist cultural analysis page. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 16:28, 21 February 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | ||
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:Regarding the 2014 RfC, it says, {{tq|The arguments in favor of deleting the entry were were passionate, but grossly methodologically deficient in appraising what counts as "evidence" for the meaning of any term, or existence of a practice.}} As an editor, I 100% endorse the position of Guan and Cristaudo on this. | :Regarding the 2014 RfC, it says, {{tq|The arguments in favor of deleting the entry were were passionate, but grossly methodologically deficient in appraising what counts as "evidence" for the meaning of any term, or existence of a practice.}} As an editor, I 100% endorse the position of Guan and Cristaudo on this. | ||
] (]) 17:19, 21 February 2023 (UTC) | ] (]) 17:19, 21 February 2023 (UTC) | ||
:You are quoting two non-experts, launching broadsides in the preface to a book which is not about {{tq|Cultural Marxism}} in either of the senses you are discussing. If you actually intend to bring {{tq|the actual consensus of RS to the topic area}} - well, that consensus isn't reflected in these co-authors writing outside their field to defend their choice of book title, and it isn't {{tq|that "cultural Marxism" is a phrase that is also used entirely free of conspiracy connotations to refer to the Frankfurt School or Birmingham School}}. The phrase has been used aleatorically to refer to any number of things, but there isn't any notable or consistent usage outside of the conspiracy theory (and only a minority of recent RS even entertain the question, which you propose to answer, against policy, in {{tq|unambiguous wikivoice}}). ] (]) 17:30, 21 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
::Beibei Guan is a lecturer of European philosophy who did her doctoral thesis on Baudelaire and Benjamin. Wayne Cristaudo is Chair of Politics at Charles Darwin University. ] ] (]) 17:42, 21 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::Exactly my point, though. Neither has any demonstrated expertise in conspiracy theories, or on the Frankfurt School, or on the Birmingham School for that matter. They situate themselves outside of "cultural Marxism" according to every attempt you have made to define it. ] (]) 17:48, 21 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
::::I am not going to ] your personal OR again. Bring sources. ] (]) 17:57, 21 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::Sources for what, though? I can't demonstrate a negative. ] (]) 18:04, 21 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
:You cant use a 2019 Source to propose a field of study is a conspiracy theoryu when BOOKS were published decades before in thaty academioc field! Dennis Dworkin. Cultural Marxism in Postwar Britain: History, the New Left, and the Origins of Cultural Studies. (Post-Contemporary Interventions.) Durham, N.C.: Duke University Press. 1997. | |||
:and thewre are plenty of peer reviewed articles form the 1`990s and 1980s. It does not matter what opinion of someone in 2019 is! There was wide . WORLDWIDE , publication on "Cultural Marxism" in the 1990s and 1980s and before! And they were poublished by marxist and left leaning academics and not by extreme right groups! ] (]) 17:58, 22 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
{{hab}} | |||
== Disambiguation page == | |||
Someone has created ] last week. How do other editors feel about this? ] (]) 23:00, 9 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
:This is a multi-page ] . I suggest moving the discussion to ]. ] (]) 23:27, 9 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
== ] has an ]== | |||
<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">]</div>''']''' has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the ''']'''.<!-- Template:Rfc notice--> Thank you. ] (]) 11:22, 11 November 2024 (UTC) |
Latest revision as of 19:11, 24 December 2024
This is the talk page of a redirect that targets the page: • Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory Because this page is not frequently watched, present and future discussions, edit requests and requested moves should take place at: • Talk:Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory |
This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
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This redirect does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||
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Semi-protected edit request on 1 May 2018
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The redirect is not appropriate and seems to represent a clumsy attempt an censorship. This phrase has entered into fairly common usage now and merits a page of its own. The reference to the frankfurt school can be a link, but that obscure historical usage is at most a footnote. Helper0237621 (talk) 19:38, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:45, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
I am not sure how much can be written about "Cultural Marxism" on its own other than that it's a conspiracy theory, and giving examples of the term being thrown by right-wing celebrities. It hasn't got a rich history like the New World Order, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, or similar ones. Perhaps if someone writes a draft with richer content, it could be considered to be established as an independent article. BeŻet (talk) 10:19, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
Deletion review
In case editors may overlook it, there was a deletion review last September as seen here: Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2018 September 6. It closed with no consensus to overturn but mentioned the possibility of discussion elsewhere. Thanks, Erik (talk | contrib) 18:01, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Redirect is broken
Hi @EdJohnston: or other admins, the redirect is broken because the section from that article has been removed and a separate article has been created Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory. Please could you fix the redirect so it goes there instead?
Thanks
John Cummings (talk) 12:03, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
- Done - looks like there's sufficient consensus at Talk:Frankfurt_School#Split? for a new article. Sam Walton (talk) 12:17, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
- For further discussion, go to Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 September 11#Cultural Marxism. See also Talk:Frankfurt School#Split? as mentioned above by User:Samwalton9. Samwalton6 left the redirect fully protected, it just goes to a new place, the separate article on Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory, newly created on 11 September 2020. My guess is that this change of the redirect into an article will not be very controversial. The original problem was that people were trying to make Cultural Marxism into a real thing and not just a bugaboo. It would be helpful if somebody would officially close the discussion at Talk:Frankfurt School#Split?. EdJohnston (talk) 14:26, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
- @EdJohnston: Done per my request. –MJL ‐Talk‐ 16:03, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
- For further discussion, go to Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 September 11#Cultural Marxism. See also Talk:Frankfurt School#Split? as mentioned above by User:Samwalton9. Samwalton6 left the redirect fully protected, it just goes to a new place, the separate article on Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory, newly created on 11 September 2020. My guess is that this change of the redirect into an article will not be very controversial. The original problem was that people were trying to make Cultural Marxism into a real thing and not just a bugaboo. It would be helpful if somebody would officially close the discussion at Talk:Frankfurt School#Split?. EdJohnston (talk) 14:26, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
- Why is there no Cultural Marxism Misplaced Pages entry and why is is being redirected to a Conspiracy Theory page? Isaw (talk) 17:50, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Cultural Marxism" was never the primary name given to the field that Misplaced Pages addresses as Marxist cultural analysis. The conspiracy theory isn't related to any "real Cultural Marxism", because the conspiracy theory isn't based on anything real, and the field of study you are talking about was never widely known as "Cultural Marxism".
- Perhaps more to the point: repeated, widely participated discussions have consistently reached the consensus that the only encyclopaedic topic referred to as "Cultural Marxism" is the conspiracy theory. WP:CONSENSUSCANCHANGE, but there isn't any evidence that it actually has. Newimpartial (talk) 02:18, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 18:52, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
- and on that page they say to come here? Looks like a Misplaced Pages conspiracy? :) Isaw (talk) 09:41, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- That was back in 2020. People have been kvetching about this for ages and it never gets anybody anywhere.
- There does not seem to be a redirect proposal active at the moment. The correct place to start one would be at WP:RfD but please let me save you some time before you go and bother them. The redirect is correct. It is not going to be changed. There is no magical rhetorical formula that you can contrive which will bamboozle us into changing it incorrectly. All you are doing is annoying people and it is time to stop doing that. --DanielRigal (talk) 18:21, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Why is there no Misplaced Pages entry for "Cultural Marxism" and why is the page for Cultural Marxism diverting to a conspiracy Theory entry when Cultural Marxism is NOT a conspiracy theory? Isaw (talk) 20:43, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- 2020 or 2010 is irrelevant! Cultural Marxism was an established academic field in the 1980s and 1990s and it is being misdirected to a page which claims Cultural Marxism is and always a far Right conspiracy Theory. How do Misplaced Pages correct this? Isaw (talk) 20:47, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- And in case you think that Daniel's assessment is just a single voice, let me assure you that it isn't. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 20:20, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter if multiple editirs say Cultural Marxism should not have its own entry in Misplaced Pages and should instyead redirect to a Conspiracy Theory entry if they happen to be WRONG and Cultural Marxism is #NOT a conspiracy theory. How does one get Cultural Marxism to have its own actually factually true and reliable entry and not be misconstrued as a Conspiracy theory? Isaw (talk) 20:46, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- There are many cases where a topic name has multiple meanings and thus multiple articles. When there is a clear WP:primary topic, as in this case, then that is what the article of that name is about. The existence of article(s) about the other topic(s) is identified at the top of the primary article using a WP:hatnote such as {{other uses}}. So you would need to write an article (or section of an article) about the academic field and then use the hatnote mechanism to highlight it. Does that help? 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 22:53, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Please note that Misplaced Pages's preferred article title for "Marxist cultural studies"/"the cultural turn in Marxism"/"cultural Marxism" is Marxist cultural analysis. You could propose to move that article to Cultural Marxism, but an overwhelming consensus has concluded on at least five occasions that the main topic of "Cultural Marxism" is the conspiracy theory. Newimpartial (talk) 00:55, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter if multiple editirs say Cultural Marxism should not have its own entry in Misplaced Pages and should instyead redirect to a Conspiracy Theory entry if they happen to be WRONG and Cultural Marxism is #NOT a conspiracy theory. How does one get Cultural Marxism to have its own actually factually true and reliable entry and not be misconstrued as a Conspiracy theory? Isaw (talk) 20:46, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
Convert to disambiguation
This thread has been dead for more than a year. There is no point in trying to revive it. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
In the spirit of WP:BOLD, healthy compromise, ease of finding information, and in light of the lack of consensus in both Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory and Marxist cultural analysis as to how the articles should be named, I've changed the page to offer links to both articles. Both articles have links to each other, and one of the few mutual agreements between both sides of the discussion on both of the pages concede that the term "Cultural Marxism" can refer to both the application of Marxist theory to critique of things other than class, or to the alt-right conspiracy theory that uses it as a basis. Looking at the relevant Talk pages should be enough to demonstrate the ambiguity of the term on this page and justify offering both to those interested in the subject, and as contentious as the discussions may be, I believe that the simplest solution is to offer readers to look for the meaning they intended to find, rather than favoring one over the other. And again, both pages refer to each other, and both have very well sourced claims that the term "Culutral Marxism" is used to refer to each depending on the context. Nerfdart (talk) 00:50, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
Bit underhand that Cultural Marxism redirects here, and not to Marxist cultural analysis page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Obsteve (talk • contribs) 16:28, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
Sennalen (talk) 17:19, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
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Disambiguation page
Someone has created Cultural Marxism (disambiguation) last week. How do other editors feel about this? Newimpartial (talk) 23:00, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
- This is a multi-page WP:CROSS-POST . I suggest moving the discussion to Talk:Cultural_Marxism_(disambiguation). 87.116.177.103 (talk) 23:27, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
Cultural Marxism (disambiguation) has an RfC
Cultural Marxism (disambiguation) has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. 87.116.177.103 (talk) 11:22, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
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