Talk:Falun Gong: Difference between revisions

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		⚫	== Bias in the international reception section ==
	== Tiananmen Square Incident needs to be properly referenced ==

		⚫	There is section in the "International Reception" about Adam Frank which straight up says that the isn't a cult and the "cult" definition is due to stigma. Can somebody remove it, because it's quite biased. ] (]) 20:38, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
	Under the media campaign section, in the final paragraph, there's a line which reads "much the same rhetoric employed by the party during Tiananmen in 1989". Since this is referencing the Tiananmen Square protests, please refer to it as such so as not to confuse the incident with the name of the square itself. Please change this line to "much the same rhetoric employed by the party during Tiananmen Protests of 1989". <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 10:48, October 1, 2020 (UTC)</span>

			:@] Denied. These are attributed opinions from academic sources. They do, however, need full citations, which I will add shortly. ] (]) 19:16, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
	== Recent Changes Discussion ==
			::@]@] It's also heavily outdated. Last source is 2007. After they started supporting Trump, media outlets have less motivation to keep a blind eye and have finally been acknowledging how dangerous their teachings are like with a more updated article from ABC. There should be a section that Australian national broadcaster, ABC, criticised them for teaching people that race mixing is an evil alien plot to corrupt man and reports of Australian practioners have died from taking the advice that modern medicine is not in their interests. It's obviously a cult when you brainwashed people to believe the leader can read your mind and has supernatural powers and that has been heavily criticised by Australian national media. ] (]) 04:12, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::@] Again, those are accurately reproduced, attributed quotes from valid sources. Academics tend to talk about these groups differently than you or I do, and usually avoid the word "cult" entirely. See also ]. (That's partly based on the realization that a lot of cult doctrines aren't objectively any "weirder" than those of mainstream religions—Tibetan Buddhists and Catholics both believe that some of their holy men command supernatural powers, for example. But I digress, and this isn't the place for that discussion.) If you come across sources of similar quality that give an opposing view, you can incorporate them. ] (]) 07:42, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Firstly, it's not appropriate to compare Falun Gong to Catholic Christianity or other long-established religions. Falun Gong is a modern movement entirely invented by its founder, who self-claims to possess divine authority and is still alive today, continuing to reap its benefits. (That should be in the lead)
			::::Additionally, it is misleading to treat one lone source as definitive and accurate without considering context. The whole point of talk here is to gain consensus over whether a source is reliable and enough especially since more recent investigations highlight concerns that contradict the notion of Falun Gong not being a cult.
			::::Here are excerpts from the ABC report, and I encourage you to read these critically and tell me, without bias, whether these findings don't align with what we’d typically classify as cult-like behavior?
			::::''In those early years, Anna watched as her mother gradually became absorbed in Falun Gong. She pulled Anna and her sibling out of a Catholic school and quit her job in the family business to take up selling books for Falun Gong. Her time was increasingly spent doing exercises, meditating, and reading the movement’s teachings.''
			::::''“The leader of Falun Gong claims that race mixing in humans is part of an alien plot to drive humanity further from the gods,” says Anna. “He says that when a child is born from an interracial marriage, that child does not have a heavenly kingdom to go to.”''
			::::''As she struggled with her illness, Anna says her mother rejected doctors’ attempts to put her on medication, quoting Falun Gong teachings. “It means you are a bad practitioner. It means you do not fully trust Master Li. If you take any kind of medication or go to a hospital, even.”''
			::::I am not suggesting we remove sources that state Falun Gong is not a cult. However, like articles on ] or the Unification Church, where the leadership’s actions and teachings are critically examined, the same standard should apply here. The ABC joint investigation highlights significant harm caused by Falun Gong’s teachings on medicine, along with troubling ideological beliefs espoused by its leader.
			::::We should include this investigation in the article and others , clearly attributing these findings to the ABC as a reliable source but we don't have to call it a cult. If we cannot reach an agreement, I propose settling the matter through the arbitration process.] (]) 09:32, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Cults can even influence the most trusted individuals, so a single academic research is not enough.
			::::Also, comparing regular religions to cults is ridiculous, since regular religions allow you to leave and do not force you to pay the head of the Church, whilst cults do the opposite.
			::::Moreover, the "weirdness" is not a factor to determine a cult from a regular religion. ] (]) 11:48, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Also, the German wiki does include a lot of bias to Falun Gong, so we need to be careful to make sure this page doesn't have the problems ] (]) 11:52, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

			== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 December 2024 ==
	Hi, recently ] made some big changes to the lead section. I made a revert based on ] and ] but was reverted back. I will share my reasonings below:

			{{edit extended-protected\|Falun Gong\|answered=yes}}
	Augend added "The Falun Gong has also received substantial criticism and heavy scrutiny by observers for its
			Please update the chapter on '''Beliefs and Practices''' under the subchapter '''Extraterrestrials''' to include details about the claim that race mixing is part of an alien plot to drive humanity away from the gods. Additionally, want to clarify that the source from ABC News never stated that some practitioners '''believed''' this claim to be metaphorical. The ABC report only explained that some practitioners '''described''' it as metaphorical. It is both unsourced and original research to say these practitioners were honest in their verbal claims and actually believed them, especially considering the same ABC report quickly included a contradictory statement from a former member who said she was taught this as the literal truth and not metaphorical
	# " extreme founder veneration" and cited Adam Frank's book chapter to justify. The cited work does not appear to support the claim. It says (p.256): {{tq2\|Even before the crackdown, differing degrees of commitment to Li Hongzhi and the manner in which followers publicly demonstrated that commitment sometimes prompted disagreement. Judy, for example, criticized those who worshiped Li Hongzhi too zealously, noting “Master Li said ‘treat me as a human.’” Freddy agreed, pointing out that far from seeking worshipers, Li admonished followers to not “get caught up in the images. Don’t fall into attachments"}} This shows that even among Falun Gong practitioners, opinions differ on founder veneration, and Li himself discourages that.
	# " influence operations to secure United States government contracts, thereby increasing its revenue using US federal funds." Augend cited a 2010 WaPo that says the U.S. government gave funding to firewall circumvention tools developed by Falun Gong practitioners. The article mentioned Hudson Institute fellow Michael Horowitz advocating for Global Internet Freedom Consortium (GIFC) to receive funding, but it did not say that Horowitz was a Falun Gong practitioner. The article does not support the broad claim that "Falun Gong used influence operations to secure government contracts". Also, the funding was provided to GIFC, not to Falun Gong per se.
	# Augend changed "Falun Gong experiences repression in China" to "Falun Gong has been notable in receiving substantial government scrutiny in China", but sources overwhelmingly describe the treatment of Falun Gong practitioners in China as persecution or repression. We can't call well-documented torture and school expulsion due to one's peaceful belief in Falun Gong "government scrutiny". (Source: last article, ''Death Trap'', in this series https://www.pulitzer.org/winners/ian-johnson)
	# Augend changed " criticizes the purportedly self-imposed limits of modern science" to "denying the truthfulness of science". But criticizing science's limitations is not the same as denying its truthfulness.
	# Augend added "involvement with political information operations and disinformation campaigns in the United States and Europe." and cited two media articles about The Epoch Times. But ET says that it does not represent Falun Gong, and these two articles did not generalize ET's coverage to the entire Falun Gong community, whose vast majority of practitioners are in China and have no connections with ET.

			Proposed revision;
	For full explanation, please go to my ] where my reasonings are more detailed but too long to post here. ] (]) 02:33, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
			Replace fourth sentence -

			'' Li purported that in general extraterrestrials disguise themselves as human in order to corrupt and manipulate humanity, but some practitioners claimed that to be only metaphorical]''.
	:@] Thank you for your commentary. I am traveling in the near term so I will make my comments brief. I agree with you on points 1 & 3; perhaps the language can be revised to be more neutral, but I do not believe omission altogether of these important facets is the best treatment. 2 & 5 are both involving organizations that sources describe as substantially connected to the movement's organization & leadership and I believe they should be treated as such. 4 is a matter of semantics. However it is my opinion that reliable sources are more consistent with the notion that the movement denies the faculty of science rather than merely questioning it. <span style="color:navy"><span style="font-variant:small-caps">'']''</span></span> (]) 05:15, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
	::@Augend, there are a number of issues with your edits to the lede, and @Thomas Meng has a well reasoned summary of why he reverted it, which I largely agree with.
	::@Augend, some of the sources that you were trying to add, such as the Washington Post article, New York Times one, New Yorker one, and Adam Frank's 2004 book chapter, are already on the page. So this isn't a question of omitting material, but putting it in the proper place on the page. This is an article about a minority religious group indigenous to China that is facing severe, well documented persecution. It should be treated as such. This does not mean that it should avoid criticism, but the criticisms of a group are not what define it.
	::Your version diminishes the religious aspects of falungong and frames the practice from a very American point of view. The businesses, organizations, and affiliations in the United States are part of the group's public profile (and are certainly important because Li Hongzhi lives in America), but this current introduction is very unbalanced in my opinion. Even the version @Thomas Meng is trying to revert to needs work in my opinion. Furthermore, per ], "Apart from basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article." The lede is supposed to summarize the most important points of the article, thus we need to be selective what to include in the lead.
	::Moving on from the tone, I think you misrepresented a number of the sources you cited. @Thomas Meng detailed these in your discussion, and I concur with his points on there. If you'd like me to detail my own assessment, I can do that as well. There are multiple points where you went beyond paraphrasing what the original sources say to attribute your own opinions to those authors. This is a significant issue that you need to avoid when editing articles.
	::I suggest we go back to the previous stable version for now, and move forward with edits in a more consensus-seeking way. —'''Zujine\|]''' 04:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

			With this;
	== Lead suggestions ==

			''Li Hongzhi alleged that extraterrestrials disguise themselves as humans to corrupt and manipulate humanity, a claim some practitioners have downplayed as metaphorical. Li also claims that racial mixing among humans is part of the "alien plot" to hurt and distance humanity further away from the gods.''
	There has been some discussion regarding this page's lead recently. The current lead seems to be a moderate size and covers a wealth of info. However, after taking a closer look, I realized that it might be missing some key info fully elaborated in later sections. Currently, the lead mainly talks about Falun Gong's headquarters and organizations in the U.S., their beliefs that have been criticized by some media, and how they face discrimination in China. However, based on the rest of the article, I believe the lead is missing key info like: what the practice actually looks like and is about; its history and developments inside China; how they're being persecuted and what led to it, etc. I think these would provide a more complete picture of this topic, especially considering that not every religion is persecuted in China. Happy to discuss and reach consensus. ] (]) 14:22, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

			] (]) 11:20, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
	:@] This information had been in the lede for years and only recently was taken out. I agree that it should be added back in. It's important that this section be an introduction to the full article and give a complete picture of what falungong is. —'''Zujine\|]''' 14:29, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
	::I see. If no other objections, I will add some of this info to the lead. I will be mindful of the length and try to be concise. ] (]) 19:09, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::We're not burying that the org is centered on Li Hongzhi and is very active via its various orgs. And we're certainly not going to try to obscure this with the usual persecution narrative the org would prefer we highlight instead. ] (]) 02:14, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
	::::Hello @]. What I added was simply a short summary of topics that were discussed extensively in the article itself. Nothing was buried or highlighted, especially considering that the first paragraph says Falun Gong was founded by Li. The new additions were at most proportionate to the topics elaborated in the article itself. Much more could be added based on the article but I only selected what was clearly missing. ] (]) 12:23, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
	::::::The group's history is nowhere near as notable as its current activities and the group has always been centered around Li Hongzhi. I suggest you review the history of this article before inserting a paragraph on top of this core information about the group. ] (]) 04:09, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
	::::@] if you think someone's edit was missing something, you can try adding the information and not reverting the editor summarily. @]'s edit didn't bury any information. The edits were an overall improvement in multiple ways. You seem to be committed to a specific narrative about this group based a few recent articles in the highly politicised American media landscape. Your views and the views of these articles are not representative of academic and religious studies of falungong over the past 25 years. The articles you rely on (though rarely cite accurately) are important and should be included on this page, so please don't suggest that I'm trying to bury information. However, you are under the false impression that the priority of information on this page should be determined by you and you alone. —'''Zujine\|]''' 13:07, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
	:::::You're well aware of the history of this article, where we even have scholars writing about the Falun Gong's attempts at influencing it. As a result, you're also well aware that the tolerance for anything that can be read as in-step with the group's preferred presentation is unacceptable here and will be swiftly escalated and exposed yet again. Stick to ] and save your complaints about this (extremely politically active) new religious movement's media reception for some other forum. ] (]) 04:09, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
	:Thank you ] for the suggestion. Following your advice, I took a look at the page’s history over the past 10 years. Back in , , , and , the lead all had info about the Falun Gong’s history in China, the appeal to the gov by 10,000 people, what led to the persecution, as well as the scope of the persecution. I saw that you removed 3 paragraphs of such info from the lead on , without offering a clear justification other than stating that the lead was too long.
	:I’ve read the latest archive of talk page discussions during that time. There were lots of heated debates. But among them, there was a reasonable and objective by ]: “In many of these cases dating the statement might be more appropriate than removing it.” And it seemed that ] also it a viable compromise. The history part that I added to the lead was no more than half of the size of what used to be there, and all events were dated.
	:If the lead is only focused on recent events, wouldn’t that be a violation of ], when it has {{tq\|an inflated or imbalanced focus on recent events}} and its {{tq\|writing without an aim toward a long-term, historical view?}} Moreover, most of the media articles and scholarly works about Falun Gong ''itself'' that I have seen so far all include a large amount of info about its history and the persecution. How can a religious movement’s history be not notable enough to be in the lead of the movement, especially if it’s closely related to the practice’s developments over time? ] (]) 00:16, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
	::Yes, I've removed a lot from this article and added a lot. A lot more needs to go and much more needs to be added.
	::There's no acceptable reason to attempt to bump down Li Hongzhi's total centrality to this topic and, given the Falun Gong's role in attempting to influence this and related articles, any attempts at doing so will naturally be highly suspicious. As Misplaced Pages ]-acceptable sources make absolutely clear, the group's entire is centered on Li Hongzhi. ] (]) 10:11, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
	:::It is not reasonable or appropriate to say that edits unaligned with with your POV are "highly suspicious." Nor did ]'s edits bump down Li Hongzhi's role in falungong. I want to stress this that ] (] was given to during the last conflict: "All editors in the Falun Gong topic area, and Bloodofox in particular, are warned to not speculate about other editors' religious views, nor to attempt to disqualify others' comments based on actual or perceived religious views." Also, when it comes to stressing the importance of Li Hongzhi, I'd like to draw a comparison to the page on ], and look at how much attention is given to the pope in the lede section. Obviously the papacy is the undisputed high leader of the church, but this article gives a detailed description of the church overall rather than focusing on the pope. Again, I'm not suggesting that mentions of Li Hongzhi as the leader of falungong and his influence be removed or diminished from this article, I'm just suggesting that it be given appropriate weight, and I think that ]'s edits were accurate and well sourced. They do not warrant this type of accusation and refusal to collaborate. —'''Zujine\|]''' 16:29, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
	::::That comparison seems misleading... The pope is not the founder of catholiscism, Li Hongzhi created Falun Gong. He is both pope and Jesus in that comparison if we're talking due weight. ] (]) 16:35, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

			:Which practitioners? Without a direct quote or citation of them, the sentence reads like ] imo ] 10:29, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
	::::You're wasting your time. We're obviously not going to go back to your preferred earlier version, where the article went to pains to downplay the centrality of Li Hongzhi. Our ] make it crystal clear that the Falun Gong is ''whatever Li Hongzhi says it is'' and that this has ''always'' been the case. Your pope comparison is funny but an ''appropriate'' comparison would instead be your pick of new religious movements from the last half century founded on the words and whims of a single charismastic figure. If we're comparing the Falun Gong to the Catholic church, Li Hongzhi would be Jesus, deity, pope, and Bible all in one.
			::It's in the mentioned ABC source. What other source could I possibly even mean? ABC never wrote that they believed that. This is original research that's '''unsourced and should be removed'''. What ABC wrote was that they "claimed" it was hypothetical, without making any judgement that they were telling the truth or not. Though the ABC source hints they are flat out lying because they quickly follow up by saying a confirmed ex member contradicted them and said that she learnt it as the literal truth. Hence I request that the sentence should be more closer to what ABC actually said and remove the unsourced Weasel wording. ] (]) 03:21, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
	::::Meanwhile, the Falun Gong consistently seeks to downplay or obscure his role, just like this article used to, because they understand that the reality of Falun Gong = really just an org based around whatever Li Hongzhi wants or says makes the organization immediately unpalatable to many. In turn, it is obviously a major red flag whenever someone suggests that we follow the Falun Gong's lead instead of ], especially on an article that has a documented, even scholar-discussed history of attempted Falun Gong influence.
			:::Sorry if I came across as rude. I'm working on the article now. ] 03:53, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
	::::Finally, you might also want to stress the "warning" that you highlight above . ] (]) 19:00, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
			::Here is the ABC source: .
	:::::Thanks for everyone’s participation. @], it seems like your primary concern is the lead looking like Li Hongzhi isn’t the central figure of Falun Gong. I didn’t realize my edit would be perceived this way, as I thought that was already clear in the article since the first paragraph already stated so, and also that based on other NRM pages I've done, it’s common for NRMs to be centered around the founder (on top of existing religious ideas or new religious dogma by the founder). I assume you were referring to my moving up a paragraph about the persecution, which I did because that would make the lead chronological. However, based on your concern, I would be willing to agree to not moving that paragraph up and also moving my other edits about the history inside China down. ] (]) 05:44, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
			::The article states: ''"Some practitioners have explained Master Li’s teachings as metaphorical, such as his claims that aliens walk the Earth and disguise themselves as people to corrupt mankind. But Anna learned it as literal truth."''
	::::::The lead should be a summary of the article's contents and that include's the group's history, so concise coverage of the NRM's history is a given. However, this is a highly sensitive article under constant assault by its subject and it is a good idea to be particularly cautious and sensitive given that reality. ] (]) 01:56, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
			::The current Misplaced Pages edit wrongfully writes practitioners "believe" this as "metaphorical", but the ABC article provides no such consensus and instead ''highlights'' Anna's contradictory account to suggest the honesty of their claims are questionable.
	:::::::Yes it is definitely important to be cautious and make sure things are done right. If you don’t have any other objections, I’ll add back my other edits about the history and keep them and the paragraph about the persecution at the end of the lead. ] (]) 02:38, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

			I request that the completely UNSOURCED claim of (some practioners believed) be removed or replaced with this more accurate reflection of the ABC source without distortion:
⚫	== Bias in the international reception section ==

			''Li Hongzhi alleged that extraterrestrials disguise themselves as humans to corrupt and manipulate humanity. According to an ABC investigation, while some practioners downplayed this as metaphorical, a former member, Anna, said she was taught it as literal truth ''
⚫	There is section in the "International Reception" about Adam Frank which straight up says that the isn't a cult and the "cult" definition is due to stigma. Can somebody remove it, because it's quite biased. ] (]) 20:38, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

			(https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-21/inside-falun-gong-master-li-hongzhi-the-mountain-dragon-springs/12442518)] (]) 03:44, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

			:{{Done}}. I moved it to a new paragraph as I felt like it didn't fit in the middle of the current one. ] 04:02, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
			::Thank you and also no offense taken. I am just glad someone finally replied and answered the request. Thanks again. ] (]) 04:05, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

			== Add in quotes from Times interview and ABC report ==

			Li's interview is very revealing. He claims not just aliens but that there are things that modern science cannot understand. And that the only person in the entire world who understands how to save humanity is himself. He self claims himself as a saviour who learned supernatural powers and known many people who can literally levitate. None of this information is in the article despite this is major stuff. It should be included as it's well sourced by Times Magazine. ''At the beginning you asked why I did such things. I only tell practitioners, but not the public because they cannot comprehend it. I am trying to save those people who can return to a high level and to a high moral level. Modern science does not understand this, so governments can do nothing. The only person in the entire world who knows this is myself alone.'' ] (]) 00:47, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
			:To be clear, article should mention in a chapter about FG teachings; the main facts from that interview, that he is preaching that not only does he have supernatural abilities but is telling people that modern medicine / science and governments cannot help them in the future challenges. And rather in his own words, that the only person in the entire world they should trust is him. I also read this article(https://www.abc.net.au/religion/the-abc-is-right-that-falun-gong-teachings-are-dangerous/12538058) and it reveals that practioners have died because they believed in his advice that modern medicine was pointless for them. And that his followers find it hard to not see the leader Li as just a man but instead as some omniscient deity that is always watching them as; ''they believed that Li could read their minds, and that his fashen or “law bodies” — basically, copies of himself that exist in a spiritual dimension — were always next to them and watching their every move and thought.''
			:So there should be a minimum mention in the lead that the leader Li Hongzhi claims to be a saviour of man and has attained supernatural abilities since his youth. And also in the article somewhere, that there's been credible reports of practioners who have died, believing too much in his controversial claims about modern medicine.] (]) 01:49, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Is there nobody replying on this page? It's been a week and nobody has replied to the thread. It's a stark difference to getting a response within only minutes initially. However I like to stress and emphasize that what should be included is that the religion teaches people that their leader can read their minds and have supernatural abilities. There's no reason to not mention this when it's true and supported by a national broadcaster who has the integrity and courage to address. Below is an excerpt that supports those facts -

			''Anna waited. A few minutes later, Master entered the room. He spoke first to the woman and then to Anna’s mother. Then he looked at Anna, looked right into her eyes. He raised his arms, waving them in the air, then he was chanting something she couldn’t understand. Anna as a young girl. “By then it was pretty clear what this was supposed to be,” says Anna, now 25. “This was supposed to be an exorcism.” She was face to face with the man reckoned a God-like figure among his followers at The Mountain, who Anna had grown up believing could read her mind and listen to her dangerous thoughts. But now the spell was broken.
			“I remember looking into his eyes and thinking, ‘you are just another regular, pathetic man’,” she says.''

			The point is people who follow Li, believe he can read their minds and always observe them. That he is extremely powerful in a supernatural way. That kind of information definitely deserves to be in the article too. And hope I don't need to wait for long for someone with editing rights, to add it in.] (]) 04:33, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
	== Is there any chance of getting an honest article about falun gong ? ==

			== Recent news Regarding Falun Gong ==
	This article is mostly garbage, a giant truckload of deceitful anti-China propaganda with a few facts inserted by brave and hardy people, probably at great cost to themselves. Mostly it's trash, filth, outright lies but I'd bet a month's salary that any work done to correct it on a factual basis would bring down hordes of NSA-financed misinformation drones, so seems like not worth the effort ? Possibly just delete the entire subject, as there is no way we're ever going to get truth on this subject with the US State Department lined up on the other side ? ] (]) 15:54, 8 August 2024 (UTC)


	Addition - as expected, the Blob immediately removed my topic. It's NOT "unproductive". The FACT is that this topic is so buried in lies and psyops propaganda that for the sake of truth and editorial accuracy, it should be decimated and redone or simply removed. Amid all this talk worldwide about "election interference" and "misinformation", the warmongering Establishment seems to get a pass. Well, I've seen this garbage for seventy years now and NO, it does not get a pass. Yes, I'll edit war this to the death.

			] (]) 04:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
	This article is pure bovine expulsions, out the posterior end. It does not deserve to live. Removing it form the face of the earth would be a giant advance for humanity. ] (])

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Bias in the international reception section

There is section in the "International Reception" about Adam Frank which straight up says that the isn't a cult and the "cult" definition is due to stigma. Can somebody remove it, because it's quite biased. Yippt (talk) 20:38, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

@Yippt Denied. These are attributed opinions from academic sources. They do, however, need full citations, which I will add shortly. Nicknimh (talk) 19:16, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@Nicknimh@Yippt It's also heavily outdated. Last source is 2007. After they started supporting Trump, media outlets have less motivation to keep a blind eye and have finally been acknowledging how dangerous their teachings are like with a more updated article from ABC. There should be a section that Australian national broadcaster, ABC, criticised them for teaching people that race mixing is an evil alien plot to corrupt man and reports of Australian practioners have died from taking the advice that modern medicine is not in their interests. It's obviously a cult when you brainwashed people to believe the leader can read your mind and has supernatural powers and that has been heavily criticised by Australian national media. 49.186.112.179 (talk) 04:12, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

@49.186.112.179 Again, those are accurately reproduced, attributed quotes from valid sources. Academics tend to talk about these groups differently than you or I do, and usually avoid the word "cult" entirely. See also MOS:CULT. (That's partly based on the realization that a lot of cult doctrines aren't objectively any "weirder" than those of mainstream religions—Tibetan Buddhists and Catholics both believe that some of their holy men command supernatural powers, for example. But I digress, and this isn't the place for that discussion.) If you come across sources of similar quality that give an opposing view, you can incorporate them. Nicknimh (talk) 07:42, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Firstly, it's not appropriate to compare Falun Gong to Catholic Christianity or other long-established religions. Falun Gong is a modern movement entirely invented by its founder, who self-claims to possess divine authority and is still alive today, continuing to reap its benefits. (That should be in the lead)

Additionally, it is misleading to treat one lone source as definitive and accurate without considering context. The whole point of talk here is to gain consensus over whether a source is reliable and enough especially since more recent investigations highlight concerns that contradict the notion of Falun Gong not being a cult.

Here are excerpts from the ABC report, and I encourage you to read these critically and tell me, without bias, whether these findings don't align with what we’d typically classify as cult-like behavior?

In those early years, Anna watched as her mother gradually became absorbed in Falun Gong. She pulled Anna and her sibling out of a Catholic school and quit her job in the family business to take up selling books for Falun Gong. Her time was increasingly spent doing exercises, meditating, and reading the movement’s teachings.

“The leader of Falun Gong claims that race mixing in humans is part of an alien plot to drive humanity further from the gods,” says Anna. “He says that when a child is born from an interracial marriage, that child does not have a heavenly kingdom to go to.”

As she struggled with her illness, Anna says her mother rejected doctors’ attempts to put her on medication, quoting Falun Gong teachings. “It means you are a bad practitioner. It means you do not fully trust Master Li. If you take any kind of medication or go to a hospital, even.”

I am not suggesting we remove sources that state Falun Gong is not a cult. However, like articles on Scientology or the Unification Church, where the leadership’s actions and teachings are critically examined, the same standard should apply here. The ABC joint investigation highlights significant harm caused by Falun Gong’s teachings on medicine, along with troubling ideological beliefs espoused by its leader.

We should include this investigation in the article and others , clearly attributing these findings to the ABC as a reliable source but we don't have to call it a cult. If we cannot reach an agreement, I propose settling the matter through the arbitration process.49.186.112.179 (talk) 09:32, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Cults can even influence the most trusted individuals, so a single academic research is not enough.

Also, comparing regular religions to cults is ridiculous, since regular religions allow you to leave and do not force you to pay the head of the Church, whilst cults do the opposite.

Moreover, the "weirdness" is not a factor to determine a cult from a regular religion. Yippt (talk) 11:48, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Also, the German wiki does include a lot of bias to Falun Gong, so we need to be careful to make sure this page doesn't have the problems Yippt (talk) 11:52, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 December 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please update the chapter on Beliefs and Practices under the subchapter Extraterrestrials to include details about the claim that race mixing is part of an alien plot to drive humanity away from the gods. Additionally, want to clarify that the source from ABC News never stated that some practitioners believed this claim to be metaphorical. The ABC report only explained that some practitioners described it as metaphorical. It is both unsourced and original research to say these practitioners were honest in their verbal claims and actually believed them, especially considering the same ABC report quickly included a contradictory statement from a former member who said she was taught this as the literal truth and not metaphorical

Proposed revision; Replace fourth sentence -

Li purported that in general extraterrestrials disguise themselves as human in order to corrupt and manipulate humanity, but some practitioners claimed that to be only metaphorical].

With this;

Li Hongzhi alleged that extraterrestrials disguise themselves as humans to corrupt and manipulate humanity, a claim some practitioners have downplayed as metaphorical. Li also claims that racial mixing among humans is part of the "alien plot" to hurt and distance humanity further away from the gods.

49.181.65.24 (talk) 11:20, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Which practitioners? Without a direct quote or citation of them, the sentence reads like MOS:WEASEL imo Cmrc23 ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ 10:29, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

It's in the mentioned ABC source. What other source could I possibly even mean? ABC never wrote that they believed that. This is original research that's unsourced and should be removed. What ABC wrote was that they "claimed" it was hypothetical, without making any judgement that they were telling the truth or not. Though the ABC source hints they are flat out lying because they quickly follow up by saying a confirmed ex member contradicted them and said that she learnt it as the literal truth. Hence I request that the sentence should be more closer to what ABC actually said and remove the unsourced Weasel wording. 49.180.253.95 (talk) 03:21, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Sorry if I came across as rude. I'm working on the article now. Cmrc23 ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ 03:53, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Here is the ABC source: .

The article states: "Some practitioners have explained Master Li’s teachings as metaphorical, such as his claims that aliens walk the Earth and disguise themselves as people to corrupt mankind. But Anna learned it as literal truth."

The current Misplaced Pages edit wrongfully writes practitioners "believe" this as "metaphorical", but the ABC article provides no such consensus and instead highlights Anna's contradictory account to suggest the honesty of their claims are questionable.

I request that the completely UNSOURCED claim of (some practioners believed) be removed or replaced with this more accurate reflection of the ABC source without distortion:

Li Hongzhi alleged that extraterrestrials disguise themselves as humans to corrupt and manipulate humanity. According to an ABC investigation, while some practioners downplayed this as metaphorical, a former member, Anna, said she was taught it as literal truth

(https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-21/inside-falun-gong-master-li-hongzhi-the-mountain-dragon-springs/12442518)49.180.253.95 (talk) 03:44, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Done. I moved it to a new paragraph as I felt like it didn't fit in the middle of the current one. Cmrc23 ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ 04:02, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you and also no offense taken. I am just glad someone finally replied and answered the request. Thanks again. 49.180.253.95 (talk) 04:05, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Add in quotes from Times interview and ABC report

Li's interview is very revealing. He claims not just aliens but that there are things that modern science cannot understand. And that the only person in the entire world who understands how to save humanity is himself. He self claims himself as a saviour who learned supernatural powers and known many people who can literally levitate. None of this information is in the article despite this is major stuff. It should be included as it's well sourced by Times Magazine. At the beginning you asked why I did such things. I only tell practitioners, but not the public because they cannot comprehend it. I am trying to save those people who can return to a high level and to a high moral level. Modern science does not understand this, so governments can do nothing. The only person in the entire world who knows this is myself alone. 49.180.244.73 (talk) 00:47, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, article should mention in a chapter about FG teachings; the main facts from that interview, that he is preaching that not only does he have supernatural abilities but is telling people that modern medicine / science and governments cannot help them in the future challenges. And rather in his own words, that the only person in the entire world they should trust is him. I also read this article(https://www.abc.net.au/religion/the-abc-is-right-that-falun-gong-teachings-are-dangerous/12538058) and it reveals that practioners have died because they believed in his advice that modern medicine was pointless for them. And that his followers find it hard to not see the leader Li as just a man but instead as some omniscient deity that is always watching them as; they believed that Li could read their minds, and that his fashen or “law bodies” — basically, copies of himself that exist in a spiritual dimension — were always next to them and watching their every move and thought.

So there should be a minimum mention in the lead that the leader Li Hongzhi claims to be a saviour of man and has attained supernatural abilities since his youth. And also in the article somewhere, that there's been credible reports of practioners who have died, believing too much in his controversial claims about modern medicine.49.180.244.73 (talk) 01:49, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Is there nobody replying on this page? It's been a week and nobody has replied to the thread. It's a stark difference to getting a response within only minutes initially. However I like to stress and emphasize that what should be included is that the religion teaches people that their leader can read their minds and have supernatural abilities. There's no reason to not mention this when it's true and supported by a national broadcaster who has the integrity and courage to address. Below is an excerpt that supports those facts -

Anna waited. A few minutes later, Master entered the room. He spoke first to the woman and then to Anna’s mother. Then he looked at Anna, looked right into her eyes. He raised his arms, waving them in the air, then he was chanting something she couldn’t understand. Anna as a young girl. “By then it was pretty clear what this was supposed to be,” says Anna, now 25. “This was supposed to be an exorcism.” She was face to face with the man reckoned a God-like figure among his followers at The Mountain, who Anna had grown up believing could read her mind and listen to her dangerous thoughts. But now the spell was broken. “I remember looking into his eyes and thinking, ‘you are just another regular, pathetic man’,” she says.

The point is people who follow Li, believe he can read their minds and always observe them. That he is extremely powerful in a supernatural way. That kind of information definitely deserves to be in the article too. And hope I don't need to wait for long for someone with editing rights, to add it in.49.186.112.179 (talk) 04:33, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Recent news Regarding Falun Gong

Money laundering charges shake up The Epoch Times management : NPR

How Shen Yun Tapped Religious Fervor to Make $266 Million - The New York Times Bobby fletcher (talk) 04:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

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