| Revision as of 07:19, 26 April 2005 editFlamekeeper (talk | contribs)297 edits →Two questions: cited source~~~~← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 20:41, 5 December 2024 edit undoJHobson3 (talk | contribs)239 edits →Historical error: ReplyTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Reply | ||
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| == Pope Pius XII Bashing == | |||
| {{controversial}} | |||
| (Actually, Pope Pius XII was a documented Nazi sympathiser, both by historical and photographic account. | |||
| {{Article history | |||
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| He used the Nazis as a method of exterminating the Serbs (of which over one million (1,000,000) were massacred during ]. | |||
| |action2date=17:25, 10 May 2006 | |||
| |action2link=Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Pope Pius XII/archive1 | |||
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| Adolf Hitler, apparently, was a devout Catholic: | |||
| |action3date=23:55, 12 June 2006 | |||
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| “I am completely convinced that I am acting as the agent of God. I am now a Catholic and will always remain so.” | |||
| |action4date=17:04, 28 June 2006 | |||
| |action4link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Pope Pius XII | |||
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| — Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" (Hitler was never excommunicated by the Vatican. | |||
| |action5date=20:09, 2 November 2006 | |||
| Mein Kampf was never banned by The Church.) | |||
| |action5link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Pope Pius XII/archive1 | |||
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| |maindate=July 3, 2006 | |||
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| Reference: | |||
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| |action6link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Pope Pius XII/archive2 | |||
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| == Alleged reference == | |||
| {{Blockquote | |||
| "Hitler’s Pope: | |||
| |text=Pacelli presided as ] over the ] in ], ] in 10–14 October 1934, and in ] in 25–30 May 1938.<ref>Marchione, 2002, p. 22</ref> At this time, ] laws were in the process of being formulated in Hungary. Pacelli made reference to the Jews "whose lips curse and whose hearts reject him even today".<ref>''Christian responses to the Holocaust: moral and ethical issues: Religion, theology, and the Holocaust'', ], p. 92, Syracuse University Press, 2003; {{ISBN|0-8156-3029-8}}</ref><ref>{{cite web}}</ref><ref>{{cite web}}</ref>}} | |||
| The Secret History of Pius XII", by John Cornwell | |||
| Aside the fact that the quote is from what is at least a ternary source (because I assume the quote is faithful), as well as the question whether the pope knew anti-semitic laws were "being formulated" in Hungary at the same time, I don't think that the source proves that that the pope referred to Jews, but it explicitly denies that he made a direct reference, and this much is clear from the quote in the source: | |||
| The Vatican’s Holocaust (online book) by Avro Manhattan | |||
| published by: Ozark Books, Springfield, Missouri, http://www.reformation.org/holocaus.html ) | |||
| {{Blockquote | |||
| : above comment moved from article. | |||
| |text=Jesus conquers! He who so often was the recipient of the rage of his enemies, he who suffered the persecutions of those of whom he was one, he shall be triumphant in the future as well As opposed to the foes of Jesus, who cried out to his face, "Crucify him!"—we sing him hymns of our loyalty and our love. We act in this fashion, not out of bitterness, not out of a sense of superiority, not out of arrogance toward those whose lips curse him and whose hearts reject him even today}} | |||
| : I think the answer is that this is an interesting point of view, and one that should be in the article - attributed to ''named advocates'', such as John Cornwell. ''Misplaced Pages'' cannot call people Nazi sympathisers, but we can ''report'' on accusations made by other people. ] 09:37, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC) | |||
| At the very least, the reference in the article should be reformulated to express doubt. I would prefer it to be expressed as an opinion of the author of the tertiary source unless there are others that independently agree. ] (]) 20:31, 8 April 2022 (UTC) | |||
| (from ]) I removed the section that follows from ] It contains strong POV / unsupported claims that Catholicism and Nazism are strongly intertwined. Anyhow, judge for yourselves and discuss. --] 06:41, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC) | |||
| :Cardinal Pacelli was not the Papal Nuncio to Argentina nor to Budapest. He was the Vatican's equivalent to Secretary of State. He was number two to Pope Pius XI whom the Nazis and Communists didn't want to become Pope. That's why they tried to assassinate him. They even tried to assassinate him when he became Pope Pius XII but the Papal security stopped all such attempts. It is dishonest to claim he was a supporter of the Nazis. ] (]) 02:23, 7 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
| : Unsupported? He gives two references - that's not unsupported. | |||
| : However, comments on a single pope are better placed here than at ]. ] 09:42, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC) | |||
| {{reflist-talk}} | |||
| :: Well, my reading of the quotation from ''Mein Kampf'' was that he was providing evidence in Trollish :). | |||
| == Birthtime of Pope Pius XII == | |||
| :: For anyone who wants to spend some time reading up on the matter, , by a panel of three Catholic and three Jewish academics (no atheists :|), seems like a useful source. Interestingly, the Vatican has not responded to those requests. -- ] 12:43, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC) | |||
| 3:08 AM (02:08 GMT) was a probable birthtime of Pope Pius XII. Birthtimes and deathtimes are important because of the differences of timezones. The standard time of Misplaced Pages is GMT, not including DST. | |||
| :FWIW, to get a proper perspective on Pius XII and his relationships with the several Fascist dictators, you have to trace Vatican politics back at least to the period of the French Revolution and the Italian ''Risorgimento''. Pius XII's chummyness with the Nazis and with Fascist dictators was in fact founded on the traditional politics and policies of the Papacy. This material probably does indeed belong in ], or better yet, in an article on ] separate from ]. -- ] 13:31, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC) | |||
| ] (]) 13:20, 9 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| What was removed and is at the top of the page here is simplistic and one sided and has no place in that form in ''any'' encyclopædia. The issue needs discussing but in a proper, professional NPOV manner. I think it would make more sense to put the issue in a broader narrative perspective as IHCOYC observed, perhaps ]. ] 18:51, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC) | |||
| == Historical error == | |||
| Further to the above: | |||
| "Adolf Hitler was appointed Chancellor on 30 January 1933 and sought to gain international respectability and to remove internal opposition by representatives of the church and the Catholic Centre Party. He sent his vice chancellor Franz von Papen, a Catholic nobleman, to Rome to offer negotiations about a Reichskonkordat. On behalf of Pacelli, Prelate Ludwig Kaas, the outgoing chairman of the Centre Party, negotiated first drafts of the terms with Papen. The concordat was finally signed, by Pacelli for the Vatican and von Papen for Germany, on 20 July and ratified on 10 September 1933. Bishop Preysing cautioned against compromise with the new regime, against those who saw the Nazi persecution of the church as an aberration that Hitler would correct." | |||
| Most of the "Hitler's Views" section is problematic. Observe: | |||
| is incorrect on several points. The Associated Press reported in 1933 that "Goebells a minister without portfolio" signed the concordant for Germany. Hitler was not in charge of German government and hadn't even picked his staff yet. President Paul Von Hindenburg was in charge and would only agree to appoint Hitler as Chancellor if Hitler accepted the appointment of Von Papen as Vice Chancellor according to the Associated Press. The Associated Press reported that in 1934 when President Paul Von Hindenburg fell ill and was thought to be on his deathbed, Hitler arrested former Chancellors von schleicher and von Papen among other opponents of the Nazi party. The Associated Press articles of 1934 reported Hitler had von schleicher executed and was preparing to have von Papen executed as well when the President Paul von Hindenburg recovered from his illness and pleaded with Hitler to spare the life of von Papen. In 1934, the Associated Press reported that Hitler spared von Papen's life but put him under house arrest. von Papen remained under house arrest for the duration of the war. von Papen was not acting under Hitler's orders when he approached the Vatican about signing a Concordant. He acted under the authority of President Paul von Hindenburg. As Chancellor, Hitler did not have the authority to negotiate with the Vatican. In 1933, that authority was still in von Hindenburg's jurisdiction. The Concordant was not an endorsement of von Hindenburg nor was it an endorsement of Adolf Hitler. Von Papen remained under house arrest and was not convicted for war crimes at the Nuremberg trials because he was Hitler's prisoner not a participant in the government. | |||
| :<i>"Hitler apparently had no problems with Catholicism, however: | |||
| An interesting side note: In 1933 the Associated Press reported when Hitler was appointed Chancellor by von Hindenburg Albert Eistein resigned his Prussian citizenship and was quoted as stating "the Catholic church was the only organization telling the truth about the Nazis." ] (]) 02:43, 11 December 2022 (UTC)<small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. </small> | |||
| :“I am completely convinced that I am acting as the agent of God. I am now a Catholic and will always remain so.” | |||
| :The AP reported in 1933? Do you have copies of the reports, or full citations other than nebulous dates? ] (]) 19:50, 14 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::— Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf</i> | |||
| :If you think that Hitler didn't take immediate and total charge of the German government in 1933, you're the one guilty of historical error ] (]) 20:41, 5 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| yes. 1934 not 1935. Sorry about the mix up. I was putting them all in order yesterday by date. Discovered my memory was off by a year. | |||
| {{ctop|Collectively, these are copyright violations, although individually they are not - hence collapsing rather than redacting. ] (]) 00:47, 17 December 2022 (UTC)}} | |||
| Hitler's opinion of his own Catholicism has nothing to do with Pius XII, does it? (Especially without mentioning that Hitler later reviled Christianity as a "lie" and an "invention of the Jew".) | |||
| :Source 1 The Gainesville Sun (GS) Note - Newspaper printing articles day after AP date recorded here. | |||
| :Source 2 The New York Times (NYT) | |||
| :<i>"Hitler was never excommunicated by the Vatican"</i> | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article November 7, 1932 Headline: "Von Hindenburg Glad Elections Almost History". | |||
| True, but Catholics argue that his actions and words would have incurred automatic (<i>latae sententiae</i>) excommunication. Also Stalin's question "How many divisions has the Pope?" is relevant; excommunicating Hitler would have been effective suicide. | |||
| Subheading: German President Believes Four Years of Stability Ahead; Expresses Keen Interest In Contest In The United States." | |||
| "... One of the outstanding results of the voting was that Adolf Hitler's strength dropped from 37.7 percent of the total ballots to 33 percent, and his National Socialist party delegation in the Reichstag was cut from 230 to 195." | |||
| :<i>"and so remains officially Catholic to this day..."</i> | |||
| "The Communist Reichstag membership jumped from 89 to 100, the Centrists decreased their delegation from 75 to 70, the Nationalists returned 51 against 37 in the old Reichstag, and the Socialists dropped from 133 to 121." | |||
| The Church cannot excommunicate anyone posthumously. It can declare after someone's death that s/he had incurred automatic excommunication -- but that's not quite the same thing. | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article November 17, 1932 Headline: "Von Papen And Ministry Quit Post In Berlin" | |||
| :"<i>In addition, Mein Kampf was never banned by The Church.</i>" | |||
| "Chancellor Franz Von Papen, who has directed the German Government for a little less than six months, resigned today taking his whole cabinet out with him in the face of almost unanimous opposition in the new Reichstag. ..." | |||
| Lots of books were never banned by the Church. Does this mean that the Church endorses those books? No, it does not. | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article November 19, 1932 Headline: "Hitler Presses For Early Appointment Chancellor Germany" | |||
| :"<i>It is not clear what the intentions of the Church were in this particular inaction, but it is unlikely that the merely overlooked such a prominent figure as Hitler..."</i> | |||
| "For the second time in three months, Adolf Hitler, who was a corporal in the World War, applied today to Field Marshal Paul Von Hindenburg, President of Germany, to be made Chancellor of the Reich." | |||
| That's just opinion masquerading as fact. Who says that? What are the other explanations given? | |||
| "This time, in marked contrast to their meeting August 13, Hitler was invited to sit down for an hour and to talk with frank cordiality. As he departed from the president's residence, he was asked to come back for another conference next Tuesday." | |||
| So I'm going to strike out this section. It might be relevant elsewhere (in an examination of Hitler's religious views, perhaps), but it has no place here. | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article November 21, 1932 Headline: "Adolf Hitler Gets Mandate Form Cabinet" | |||
| --] 05:08, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC) | |||
| Subheading 1: "President Von Hindenburg However, Imposes Certain Restrictions That May Prevent Acceptance New Honors." | |||
| Subheading 2: " Limitations Set" | |||
| == Pope Pius XII Compared to Hitler and Stalin == | |||
| Subheading 3: "Must Not Tamper With Reichswehr, Emergency Decrees And Other Safeguards of Law and Order; Nazi Leader Replies." | |||
| The sway that religion has on society makes me sick, to be honest. This entry was justified the same way that defacing Adolf Hitler or Stalin is justified. Any truely objective encyclopaedia would at least detail Pius' 'alleged' involvement with the Nazis... Considering the fact that there are photographs of the Pope meeting with Hitler, however, it's a little difficult to give into the delusion that he didn't at least have some Nazi ties. | |||
| "After nine years of striving, Adolf Hitler today received a mandate to form a cabinet, but it was under conditions which immediately at least, he could not accept. ..." | |||
| If you want to know my honest opinion, I think that unfortunately, because of the Catholic religion, we at wikipedia are being coerced to make Pius XII look better than he actually was. This is the same sort of thing that happened in the Soviet Union to anyone who criticised Stalin even after Kruschev had reversed his plans. Stalin was still regarded as a hero of the RELIGION known as the Soviet Union, people didn't want to give up their delusion that he was a good man, and as a result, to this day, Communist fundamentalists go on about how Stalin was a wonderful leader, as opposed to what he was almost certainly--a brutal and psychopathic dictator responsible either directly or indirectly for the deaths of some 20 million souls. | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article November 22, 1932 Headline: "Hitler Delays" | |||
| == Incorruption == | |||
| "Besieged by two groups of conflicting advisers, Adolf Hitler, leader of the National Socialist, decided today to put off until tomorrow his reply to President Von Hindenburg's reiterated conditional proffer of the chancellorship." | |||
| I've removed the following: '' In Roman Catholic lore, "incorruption", the ] preservation of a body from ], is held to be a confirmation of sanctity; cf. ].'' | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Photo of Adolf Hitler November 23, 1932 Top Caption: "Rejects Proposals" | |||
| That is simply wrong. "Incorruption" ''may'' be read as evidence of sanctity, but its absence does not mean evidence to the contrary. Many reasons may cause incorruption - type of soil in which the corpse is buried, type of coffin used, the use of preservatives on the remains prior to burial, etc. In catholic theological belief (not ''lore'') an ''incorrupt'' body must have no contributing natural or chemical factors that can explain its state. In Pius's case, we simply do know what state it is currently in. All we do know is that a botched job occured when an attempt was made to preserve it prior to the lying-in-state; some form of preservation usage is standard practice with papal corpses given the numbers of people who may want to see the body during its lying-in-state; papal corpses usually are forced to undergo more exposure to air (in particular the hot temperatures of Rome) over a longer period than any other corpse, most of whose lying-in-states (eg, the Queen Mother's, US presidents, etc) take place in sealed coffins. The Vatican was quick to point out that no special meaning should be attached to the preserved state of John XIII's body when it was removed from its coffin prior to his beatification, for it had received a ''light'' wax spray prior to display in 1963 and had been buried in air-tight triple coffins. So taking Pius XII's immediate decomposition as evidence, or implied evidence, of lack of sanctity, is simply mischevious agenda-pushing nonsense. All it indicates is a botched job at preservation and nothing to do which his state of sanctity, whether good, bad or indifferent. ] 18:46, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC) | |||
| Bottom Caption: "Adolf Hitler writes President Paul Von Hindenburg that restrictions placed on proffered chancellorship of Germany are too cramping to insure successful administration of the high office." | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article of Adolf Hitler November 23, 1932 Headline: "Adolf Hitler Unwilling To Accept Post" | |||
| == Unfair Links == | |||
| Subheading 1: "Counter Offer" | |||
| Subheading 2: " Nazi Leader Declares He Cannot Solve German Situation on Purely Parliamentary Basis of Action." | |||
| Expected Nazi Tripe Follows | |||
| Clearly the list of links shows how biased this article is. I think a fair approach would include at least a few of the numerous websites that are critical of Pius XII. There appear to be very few if any of these. | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article of Adolf Hitler November 24, 1932 Headline: "Von Hindenburg Withdraws Offer German Chancellorship To Hitler" | |||
| ''One link should be removed and that is of the "article" by Ian Paisley which is clearly a biased piece of slander and should not be included as it sheds no light on Pius XII.'' --] 05:55, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Subheading:"President of Republic Expresses Lack Confidence In Nazi Leader To Control Reichstag; Now Looking for Another Candidate" | |||
| "President Von Hindenburg, who offered to make Adolf Hitler chancellor of Germany if he could guarantee the support of the Reichstag, withdrew that offer today and called in leaders of the other parties to consider another candidate." | |||
| == Religious Question == | |||
| "At any rate he could not command that support. The National Socialist party is the largest in the Reichstag but it is far short of a majority and Hitler could not swing the Nationalists or the Bavarian party into line." | |||
| ''He consecrated the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in 1942.'' | |||
| "He told the president last night he could not control the Reichstag, but he renewed his proposal that Von Hindenburg make him head of a 'presidential' cabinet to rule without consulting the parliament." | |||
| "The president's refusal today made it plain that he has not sufficient confidence in Hitler to place him at the head of a government like that which Franz Von Papen headed, to rule solely with the presidential authority." | |||
| What does this mean? ] 03:03, May 25, 2004 (UTC) | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article June 25, 1933 Headline: "Bomb Explodes In Vatican City; 4 Injured" | |||
| Follow the Associated Press reporting on the joint investigation by the Italian Police and the Papal gendarmerie. It is interesting and determined the target was Cardinal Pacelli. Unexploded bombs were summer of 1931, and February 13, 1932. | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article June 30, 1934. Headline: "Nazi Revolution Feared; Hitler Maintains Power After Smashing Coup" | |||
| == Complaints == | |||
| Subheading: "Former Chancellor Von Scheicher Is Killed" | |||
| "In a day of summary punishment for those who challenged his authority--the denouncement of the crisis of recent weeks hastened by the disclosure of immoral orgies indulged in by leaders of his own Nazi storm troops -- the chancellor 'liquidated' leaders of a threefold opposition; the reactionary monarchists, the 'Catholic Action" group, and the left wing storm troopers who plotted his end." | |||
| "Heinrich Klausner, leader of the 'Catholic Action' group was shot to death". <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 17:08, 16 December 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. </small> | |||
| I changed the sentence next to | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article July 1, 1934. Headline: "... To Purge Nazi Party" | |||
| Between the German Concordat's signing in 1933 and 1939, Pope Pius XI made three dozen formal complaints to the Nazi government, all of which in reality drafted by Pacelli. | |||
| Paul von Hindenburg gravely ill. Purge begins. von Papen placed under house arrest. | |||
| "When reports of the calling together of physicians reached Berlin the rumor was quickly revived that von Hindenburg had written a 'political will' naming the conservative von Papen as his successor and enjoining the army, always faithful to the president, to help him if necessary". <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 20:19, 15 December 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. </small> | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article July 2, 1934. Headline: "Eye-Witness Tells Of Execution Of Sixty Rebellious Storm Troopers". This is about SA leadership elimination. | |||
| change: | |||
| ''In Duffy's words, their tone was 'anything but cordial.''' with: ''The strongest condemnetion of Hitler's ideology and ecclesiastical policy was the Encyclical ], issued in 1937'' | |||
| because the text of the Encyclical (much more than a diplomatic complain: it was read in all parishes of Germany) proves that the complains were not cordial at all. The complete text of the Encyclical is strongly against Hitler policy. | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article July 3, 1934. Headline: "Hitler Moves To Oust Von Papen In Favor Of Wilhelm Goering" | |||
| == Wrong Reference == | |||
| Notable quotes from the article: | |||
| "With the dead in Germany's 'blood purge' reaching several hundred, according to a reliable source, Chancellor Adolf Hitler today | |||
| moved to strengthen his hold on the Reich by replacing the conservative, non-Nazi vice-Chancellor Franz Von Papen. It was expected that | |||
| before the end of the day Herman Wilhelm Goering, co-purger with Hitler in the ruthless suppression of 'traitors,' would be elevated to | |||
| the vice-chancellorship." | |||
| "President Von Hindenburg's strong protective hand was thrown around Von Papen after the 86 year old executive had congratulated | |||
| The reference to ''Blessed John XXIII'' in the list of predecessors and successors is simply wrong. This is a list of popes, not blesseds. Most people do not refer to him as Blessed John XXIII. Even most Roman Catholics do not refer to him that way. It is questionable to use that designation at the start of the article but it is patently wrong to use it in links. About the only other title besides 'pope' that could be validly used in that list is 'saint'. But Venerable, Blessed, etc have no place on that list. ] 18:45, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Hitler and Goering on their "liquidation" with bullets of conservative and radical rebels against Hitlerism." | |||
| "But when Von Hindenburg spoke Hitler took steps to protect von Papen whose criticism of radical Nazis two weeks ago was the first | |||
| public sign of rumblings preceeding the 'bloody Saturday' of suppression." | |||
| "Major Mueldner von Muelhmheim, for many years adjutant to the former Crown Prince Friedrich Wilhelm, was arrested because of his | |||
| == Dispute : The Concordat == | |||
| friendship for General Kurt von Schleicher, killed with his wife while 'resisting arrest' Saturday." | |||
| "The remarkable vitality of Von Hindenburg, hero of the army and the people, was demonstrated forcibly in his actions today." | |||
| "Yesterday his condition was so alarming that a "'major medical council' was called at his estate. Today he was able to walk in this | |||
| garden and to speak vigorously on matters vitally affecting the beloved Germany which he has served in war and peace for more than | |||
| half a century." | |||
| :GS - Associated Press Article July 4, 1934. Headline: "Future Of Germany Is Contained In Decision On Fate Of Von Papen" | |||
| The anonymous edit of 23.15 hrs 01 April 05 was not minor and seriously affected the historical facts in this matter to do with '''Cardinal Pacelli''' . Of all the dates and meetings and communications removed , only the 1932 reference to Pacelli is anecdotal and refers to page 209 from the journalist Edgar Ansel Mowrer's ] , when Mowrer interrogates his assistant Otto Brok about the Secretary of State in Rome's letter read out by Monsignor ] as party leader to the ] or ] leadership . Mowrer introduces this by saying that the ] gains in the May 1932 elections to the ] , only set the stage for a further betrayal, this time of the Catholics . Alleged or anecdotal ,it was | |||
| SubHeading: | |||
| reported as a secret meeting and Mowrer was ( and is ) respected worldwide by all (except Hitler) . This present editing , along with the complex and detailed timeline removed by the anonymous , removes from this encyclopedia the actual movements and meetings and communications undertaken as matters of historical fact . Their removal is not justified and their ''protection'' is . This becomes a case of ] and the wikipedia can no more ignore this than can the Church . Adjudication is required , and there are many historians on these pages , for what is a most crucially important political matter . It constitutes the ''abdication'' of ] by itself , - or its death by conspiracy , and it is the turning point around which all modern history revolves . This famous and mysterious abdication in the face of evil , as referred to in the late ]'s recent book ] is the weak brick in the foundations of our time and we can permit ourselves no amount of obfuscatory self-exculpation( ie hiding) . Until is is accepted , it remains a dispute but it is not an allegation : it is a denial of ''inconvenient truth'' which makes a mockery of all that ''is'' good and true .Tolerance of un-truth is poison and this particular poison is in need of clearance and purgation . We cannot understand our world and why we come to this present if we hide the past which led to ] , the ] ,the ], the ], ] , the ], the ] and the present evolving world order where balance of power and all our technologies have evolved from the wartime results of this arrangement of the Concordat .] | |||
| "Status Is Uncertain" | |||
| "Vice-Chancellor Said Appointed By Chief Executive as Check Against Extremists." | |||
| Notable quotes from the article: | |||
| "Out of a momentous night conference between Chancellor Adolf Hitler and President Paul Von Hindeburg at the latter's country estate, | |||
| Germany looked today for an answer to the big question mark arising from the 'second Nazi revolution'-the political fate of Vice Chancellor | |||
| Franz Von Papen, staunch friend of von Hindenburg." | |||
| "The future of von Papen was acknowledged to be of paramount importance to the nation, and, in turn, the world, for if he remained in the government Hitler would be hindered in his reported scheme for tightening the Nazi reins and if he went out a sweeping cabinet shakeup was forseen." | |||
| "Reliable sources pointed out that under the terms by which Hindenburg accepted the Hitler regime early in 1933, Von Papen was to be the President's confidante and informant, a check and balance." | |||
| :It also mentions that von Papen is a prisoner in his own home, but protected by the regular army. von Hindenburg prevented his removal temporarily, but it would only last until the death of von Hindenburg. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 15:19, 15 December 2022 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Xsign --><small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. </small> | |||
| {{cbot}} | |||
| :*Contemporaneous press accounts are no substitute for citations from reliable secondary sources by reputable historians. What appears to be the case at the time may not be an accurate reflection of reality. Do you have citations from secondary sources? ] (]) 21:09, 15 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| : Flamekeeper, it's hard for me to understand what you are saying. | |||
| :*:A reputable historian will never call himself a secondary source for events that happened nearly a century ago. ] (]) 21:47, 15 December 2022 (UTC)<small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. </small> | |||
| : | |||
| :*:Contemporaneous press accounts are either primary sources or secondary sources. A historian's opinion is not a source. ] (]) 19:10, 16 December 2022 (UTC)<small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. </small> | |||
| : First of all, you aren't clear about what edit you are objecting to. Each Misplaced Pages viewer sees the times on the History page in their own time zone, so when you refer to "the anonymous edit of 23.15 hrs 01 April 05" I suspect you must mean the the second-from-the-bottom edit by 24.91.137.38 on that date, since this is the only edit that I see where the timestamp ends in :15. (Here in Seattle it shows as 15:15, 1 Apr 2005." I ran a diff of this and he changed "Nazi's" to "Nazis and". I agree that the meaning is changed, but since the old version was grammatically incorrect I feel this is not a big deal. | |||
| :::*That is not correct. The opinions of experts are '''''always''''' considered to be reliable sources, although they should be presented as their opinions. ] (]) 00:43, 17 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::Actually - most of the time people are refering to the UTC time which is what will display unless you go into your ] click "Time Zone" and put in an offset - I am guessing that one of you has done this - thus the time matching is off - may I suggest that you both not have an offset so that it is easier to communicate {{User:Trödel/sig}} 13:28, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
| : But it occurs to me that you might be objecting to the combination of all ''four'' of 24.91.137.38's edits on that date. These do include some substantial changes. | |||
| : | |||
| : In summary: The first half of your paragraph above makes no sense to me, because I cannot identify the specific edit you are disputing. The second half of your paragraph is a rant that doesn't address the point of a dispute. You can't dispute a page because it makes you angry; you can only dispute it because you believe it is factually incorrect, or because it distorts history by overemphasizing or underemphasizing key points. | |||
| : | |||
| : ] 10:51, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :'''<redacted copyright violations>''' <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 19:31, 16 December 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--><small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. </small> | |||
| I claim that many of the edits made since I tried to fill in the historical facts of meetings result in a distortion of history . Therefore I have shortened the interpolation of those outstanding facts and equally simplified the distortionate assertions since included . I feel this to have been even-handed as the facts are already for some time accepted on the main nazi party page , (which should be but isn't called the nazi party page but the national socialist party of germany, thus confusing modern readers ), I have given lengthy notice for my disputation of the intervening Pius XII page , I have provided sufficient info on the ] | |||
| ] page , and all in all tried to allow the world a glimpse of its own history . You are quite correct that the time and particular edit I referred to was incorrect . I don't know how this can be resolved . Has one to simply list all the myriad books which have never quite understood this explosive connection in order to show that not only was it insufficiently understood or recognised but also carefully obfuscated by clearly interested parties ? Do I need to list all the urls to sites revealing the clear criticism of this history, mostly relevant to acts of murder we term the holocaust ? I said some time ago that historians should intervene and I am not comfortable in assuming any such mantle . I can only hope that this present move will indeed lead to a complete resolution of this dispute such that the history becomes clear and un-disputed . I cannot however accept that it is simply obfuscated -can I or can you ? Flamekeeper | |||
| :Look you need to stop with the ]. You are quoting far too much and we're going into copyright territory here. You are welcome to make specific improvements to the article or to suggest them, but you're playing around far too generally here and introducing wide swaths of facts that are strictly ] for a bio of this Pope. This pertains to one aspect of his reign, albeit major, but we need to keep it in perspective. ] (]) 22:18, 16 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :No need to provide URLs. Can you state, very briefly, what facts are in dispute? Or if you prefer, can you tell me which claims on the Pius XII page are things you disagree with? | |||
| ::@], I've begun reverting your additions. Please do not add any more copyrighted material to this page. This is a talk page for discussion of article improvement, not a dumping ground for arbitrary data. ] (]) 22:34, 16 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| : | |||
| :You're not getting it. You are '''''not allowed''''' to post copyrighted material '''''anywhere on Misplaced Pages''''', except for '''''short excerpts'''''. Please see ] and ], and stop posting copyright violations. ] (]) 00:43, 17 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :You say that these facts are "already for some time accepted on the main nazi party page". But it would take me a while to read that entire page and the entire Pius XII page and look for contradictions. It's easier if you tell me. | |||
| ::Copyright expired on these articles. I was providing excerpts for your convenience. ] (]) 23:31, 19 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| : | |||
| == "]" listed at ] == | |||
| :I'm not asking you to ''defend'' your view: just say what it is. | |||
| ] | |||
| : | |||
| The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 3#Pope Pius XII: Illness and death}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> ] (]) 03:23, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Thanks! ] 04:59, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
| == "]" listed at ] == | |||
| ] | |||
| The "'''urban legend'''" for Papal involvement with the Nazis is expanded upon the ] (Zentrum)page where references and facts are provided sufficient to warrant the case . ] 21:33, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
| The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 3#Pope Pius XII: illness and death}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> ] (]) 03:25, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == Relations with Mussolini == | |||
| The bulk of this write up focuses on his relationship with Germany during WWII. What of Mussolini and Italian Fascists? There is only one reference to Mussolini in the article and The Vatican is, after all, surrounded by Italy. Can someone with the knowledge fill this in? --] 14:29, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| == Why was this page locked? == | |||
| "Flamekeeper" locked this page on 13 April and said it was because of a dispute, "see the talk page". | |||
| This Talk page has had no new entries since 8 April. How are we to know which of the many disputes on the Talk page need to be resolved before the page will be unlocked? | |||
| ] 10:41, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :If it were in fact Flamekeeper who locked this page, this would appear to be a violation of ], where it is written: | |||
| ::''Admins should not protect pages which they have been involved with (involvement includes making substantive edits to the page or expressing opinions about the article on the talk page).'' | |||
| :Since Flamekeeper has added comments to the talk page and been involved in editing the page, he should not have locked it if it were in fact him; he should have requested that some other admin review the situation and lock the page. I would suggest calling attention to this on the talk pages of the policy article. -- ] 14:41, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::Sorry for the mistake in Etiquette - I wish to make no mockery . I was trying to help by calling your attention to this . As I have remarked in the past , the wikipedia is at times syndicating complete falsehood which is thereby re-inforced . Everyone will be most re-assured if the administration can decide even in this one case what needs to be protected . I certainly will have caused much harm if my etiquette distracts from the essential dispute -which remains to be addressed . Flamekeeper | |||
| :Why not unlock the page then - and clearly identify what portions you object to on the talk page so they can be discussed. It's been locked for 5 hours for no reason {{User:Trödel/sig}} 15:44, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :'''The page is editable''' I just noticed that the ''Edit this page'' link was active at the top instead of the ''View Source'' of a normal protected page - looks like ] is having fun - I removed the false protected notice at the top - so edit away. {{User:Trödel/sig}} 16:00, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::None of this subject is funny . I clearly labelled the dispute as being with the concordat .History and goodwill objects to all of the Concordat and to that which is a carefully crouched repair of my earlier corrections. I earnestly ask ''someone'' to protect this page in the absence of discussion and resolution . I think it was quite clear what I was trying to protect - the history and consequences of the Concordat and the Church's relationship with the Nazi party . Evidently no one else shares my indignation , which becomes a question in itself .Flamekeeper | |||
| :The proper page for requesting protection is: ]. However, I don't think protection is necessary - this page does not have the type of revert war going on that usually warants protection. The controversy re Nazi Germany seems to be covered - though the language could probalby be tightened some - there is no reason to protect the page. see the ] for more info {{User:Trödel/sig}} 18:10, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Thank you, Trödel, for your intervention here. | |||
| Flamekeeper, I think you need to be more clear in your edits. I am a fairly well educated native speaker of English, and I find your prose very hard to read. You wrote above, "I clearly labelled the dispute as being with the concordat". Sorry, but you didn't. When you added the "protected" label, all that appeared on the history page was the following text: | |||
| <tt>02:27, 13 Apr 2005 Flamekeeper (protected<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>)</tt> | |||
| The four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) appeared literally in your comment, which might indicate you didn't realize that this sign is not expanded in edit summaries. | |||
| Also, in talk pages like this one it's best to use colons (:) to indent your comments so that each user's comments line up correctly. I added colons to your comments above to make this section more readable. | |||
| Just some constructive advice, because I think your frustration is due to the fact that you think people are ignoring you, when in reality they might just find your writing difficult to read. Taking a bit more time will make it easier for all of us! Because in the end, all of us share your hope that "the history becomes clear and un-disputed". | |||
| ] 04:55, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yes! The page is quite balanced at this point-but can we avoid another editing war? I should have reverted and I can't agree with Trodl so easily-surely you all see the requirements of the situation ? The language I use tries to communicate the maximum to those who are actively concerned . If this issue were not prohibited from discussion-if the documents were released , if it didn't lead where it lead then it wouldn't instill indignation . As it is I am re-assured by your presences which might frustrate future propagandising and I'll happily leave it to you to revert as it is required . I don't want to be the one constantly casting the stone , but the wikipedia needs to keep in step with reality and the reality is that there is a lot of indignation out there . The other reality is that the relevant bodies do not seem at all to wish to confront their 'evolution' but rather happily consider that they can revise history to suit their case . If I am historically incorrect I serve no virtuous purpose but revisionism erupts constantly . The logic of the situation following WW II is that our world is heading for a 'truth and reconciliation' scenario which will come with a future UN-type universal body . The culpability extends far from this page and into the realms of globalised capital , but the reconciliation will have to be cognisant of all the factors including this page and extend from the 1st World unto the bottom . The apparent victory of Capital as opposed to Ideology will be short-lived and the body in question here will play its part by recognising the 3rd World in its own way now . Only a 3rd world Pontiff will possesss the sufficient distance from such a severely tainted history to survive the scrutiny that ''will'' come .I humbly suggest that the new Ideology wil be simply ''human'' and incorporate all our extending bio-chemical knowledge . The economic side will however require fundamental change and such mental change will require the con-version of all beneficial social organisation into a unity .This page is vitally important for an understanding of this future . Flamekeeper | |||
| == Memoria e Identidad title and relevance == | |||
| This book has now been published in English as ''Memory and Identity''. Any particular reason why it's preferred to name the book in Spanish? (Not Italian; "identity" there is ''identità''; though I'm not sure why this has ''e'' instead of ''y'', which is the usual Spanish for "and".) -- ] 19:30, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::The main relevance of the book to this article is that this use of the Enabling Act by way of an example in it shows the continuing lack of understanding of the shattering consequences of Pacelli's involvement . Separately, in the secret annexe to the Concordat, padres may perhaps include religious or monks rather than just priests -in which case it could be more accurate to stick with that term . As well as this it is a fact ( upon which Hochhuth based his play) that the Holy See invested heavily in German Industry following its settlement(by sale) of the Papal Lands ''outside'' the Vatican . It would be logical to believe that Pacelli was just partly blinded (as were so , so many other investors ) by these interests . It would be reasonable overall in fact to conclude that Pacelli mistook the size of the Devil with whom he supped and that his spoon was too short, and that he spent all his following years in greatest regret .It is undoubtedly true that the Church was desirous throughout the centuries of formal recognition by the german states .However it appears from all sides that hitherto there is no willingness to confront this Concordat ( and its dependant Holocaust) issue , but only a continuation of Cardinal Pacelli's silence . Of course infallibility when wrong and un-sustainable needs a solution that is not available within that self-same creed of infallibility . It is truly an impossible position as movement forward contradicts the teaching , and movement backward in time is unavailable . Hitherto the option has been to side-step and divert but now what ? Lastly it is reasonable to note that there has been a change in the wikipages relevant to the Church , and it is reasonable to presume that this might follow upon the recent Vatican conference rapidly held to analyse the new media means for dissemination .That which is empowering and democratising in the wikipedia represents a great challenge and , on this page, a danger but it also provides the means for concerted action by groups . This present page is now a ''litmus test'' on several strategic levels .Flamekeeper | |||
| :::I understand its relevance. What I want to know is why the title is given in another language on the English language Misplaced Pages when the book has an official English title. If there's some technical reason to do so, by all means go ahead. Perhaps "the religious", which can mean "members of religious communities" in English, might be a more formal fit than "padres" BTW. -- ] 18:58, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
| This was the title used first by the ] TV channel which provided a report of the contested ''attack'' by Pope John Paul II on democracy is the reason . Perhaps they had some cause or it is a confusion of tongues .] 21:38, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ==Page Protection== | |||
| Following the repeated anon whitewashing of the complicity described within the article , page Protection has been sought .Intervening recent edits have been minor in comparison .] 07:29, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ==Two questions== | |||
| One, in this paragraph: "The questions arising from the Concordat have re-surfaced of late because of the moves toward canonisation for Pope Pius XII, and recent reference to the Enabling act in the book Memoria e Identidad by Pope John Paul II, who cites it as an example of the dangers associated with Liberal Parliamentary Democracy. However the Concordat represents most clearly the opposite dangers to a Democracy from a Church." Isn't the final sentence far too declarative for Misplaced Pages? It seems to me it's taking a position as though Misplaced Pages is saying "this is what the Concordat represents". Anyone agree/disagree? Can I remove it, or should it be rephrased....and if so, how? | |||
| Two, should phrases like "Disputed" and "Disputed - see below" really be placed in the middle of paragraphs? I removed one, but now am noticing that there are several. Is this unilateral action, or the results of compromise and consensus? Help, anyone? ] 21:43, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Go to the Centre Party Germany page and decide. Maybe the wikipedia can't be relied on to help us I agree about disruption of paragraphs . It seems necessary to end each paragraph with its own references and page numbers to avoid futile argument about POV.] 15:13, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
| The source for the Kaas movements is ''The Catholic Church and Germany'' by Guenter Lewy , from OUP . I remove disputed as suggested ] 07:19, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
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Alleged reference
Pacelli presided as Papal Legate over the International Eucharistic Congress in Buenos Aires, Argentina in 10–14 October 1934, and in Budapest in 25–30 May 1938. At this time, anti-semitic laws were in the process of being formulated in Hungary. Pacelli made reference to the Jews "whose lips curse and whose hearts reject him even today".
Aside the fact that the quote is from what is at least a ternary source (because I assume the quote is faithful), as well as the question whether the pope knew anti-semitic laws were "being formulated" in Hungary at the same time, I don't think that the source proves that that the pope referred to Jews, but it explicitly denies that he made a direct reference, and this much is clear from the quote in the source:
Jesus conquers! He who so often was the recipient of the rage of his enemies, he who suffered the persecutions of those of whom he was one, he shall be triumphant in the future as well As opposed to the foes of Jesus, who cried out to his face, "Crucify him!"—we sing him hymns of our loyalty and our love. We act in this fashion, not out of bitterness, not out of a sense of superiority, not out of arrogance toward those whose lips curse him and whose hearts reject him even today
At the very least, the reference in the article should be reformulated to express doubt. I would prefer it to be expressed as an opinion of the author of the tertiary source unless there are others that independently agree. Paxcoder (talk) 20:31, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
- Cardinal Pacelli was not the Papal Nuncio to Argentina nor to Budapest. He was the Vatican's equivalent to Secretary of State. He was number two to Pope Pius XI whom the Nazis and Communists didn't want to become Pope. That's why they tried to assassinate him. They even tried to assassinate him when he became Pope Pius XII but the Papal security stopped all such attempts. It is dishonest to claim he was a supporter of the Nazis. 2603:9000:6213:3A00:C9F4:22A6:3346:1180 (talk) 02:23, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
References
- Marchione, 2002, p. 22
- Christian responses to the Holocaust: moral and ethical issues: Religion, theology, and the Holocaust, Donald J. Dietrich, p. 92, Syracuse University Press, 2003; ISBN 0-8156-3029-8
-
{{cite web}}: Empty citation (help) -
{{cite web}}: Empty citation (help)
Birthtime of Pope Pius XII
3:08 AM (02:08 GMT) was a probable birthtime of Pope Pius XII. Birthtimes and deathtimes are important because of the differences of timezones. The standard time of Misplaced Pages is GMT, not including DST.
189.98.244.242 (talk) 13:20, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Historical error
"Adolf Hitler was appointed Chancellor on 30 January 1933 and sought to gain international respectability and to remove internal opposition by representatives of the church and the Catholic Centre Party. He sent his vice chancellor Franz von Papen, a Catholic nobleman, to Rome to offer negotiations about a Reichskonkordat. On behalf of Pacelli, Prelate Ludwig Kaas, the outgoing chairman of the Centre Party, negotiated first drafts of the terms with Papen. The concordat was finally signed, by Pacelli for the Vatican and von Papen for Germany, on 20 July and ratified on 10 September 1933. Bishop Preysing cautioned against compromise with the new regime, against those who saw the Nazi persecution of the church as an aberration that Hitler would correct."
is incorrect on several points. The Associated Press reported in 1933 that "Goebells a minister without portfolio" signed the concordant for Germany. Hitler was not in charge of German government and hadn't even picked his staff yet. President Paul Von Hindenburg was in charge and would only agree to appoint Hitler as Chancellor if Hitler accepted the appointment of Von Papen as Vice Chancellor according to the Associated Press. The Associated Press reported that in 1934 when President Paul Von Hindenburg fell ill and was thought to be on his deathbed, Hitler arrested former Chancellors von schleicher and von Papen among other opponents of the Nazi party. The Associated Press articles of 1934 reported Hitler had von schleicher executed and was preparing to have von Papen executed as well when the President Paul von Hindenburg recovered from his illness and pleaded with Hitler to spare the life of von Papen. In 1934, the Associated Press reported that Hitler spared von Papen's life but put him under house arrest. von Papen remained under house arrest for the duration of the war. von Papen was not acting under Hitler's orders when he approached the Vatican about signing a Concordant. He acted under the authority of President Paul von Hindenburg. As Chancellor, Hitler did not have the authority to negotiate with the Vatican. In 1933, that authority was still in von Hindenburg's jurisdiction. The Concordant was not an endorsement of von Hindenburg nor was it an endorsement of Adolf Hitler. Von Papen remained under house arrest and was not convicted for war crimes at the Nuremberg trials because he was Hitler's prisoner not a participant in the government.
An interesting side note: In 1933 the Associated Press reported when Hitler was appointed Chancellor by von Hindenburg Albert Eistein resigned his Prussian citizenship and was quoted as stating "the Catholic church was the only organization telling the truth about the Nazis." HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk) 02:43, 11 December 2022 (UTC)— HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- The AP reported in 1933? Do you have copies of the reports, or full citations other than nebulous dates? Elizium23 (talk) 19:50, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
- If you think that Hitler didn't take immediate and total charge of the German government in 1933, you're the one guilty of historical error JHobson3 (talk) 20:41, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
yes. 1934 not 1935. Sorry about the mix up. I was putting them all in order yesterday by date. Discovered my memory was off by a year.
| Collectively, these are copyright violations, although individually they are not - hence collapsing rather than redacting. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:47, 17 December 2022 (UTC) |
|---|
Subheading: German President Believes Four Years of Stability Ahead; Expresses Keen Interest In Contest In The United States." "... One of the outstanding results of the voting was that Adolf Hitler's strength dropped from 37.7 percent of the total ballots to 33 percent, and his National Socialist party delegation in the Reichstag was cut from 230 to 195." "The Communist Reichstag membership jumped from 89 to 100, the Centrists decreased their delegation from 75 to 70, the Nationalists returned 51 against 37 in the old Reichstag, and the Socialists dropped from 133 to 121."
"Chancellor Franz Von Papen, who has directed the German Government for a little less than six months, resigned today taking his whole cabinet out with him in the face of almost unanimous opposition in the new Reichstag. ..."
"For the second time in three months, Adolf Hitler, who was a corporal in the World War, applied today to Field Marshal Paul Von Hindenburg, President of Germany, to be made Chancellor of the Reich." "This time, in marked contrast to their meeting August 13, Hitler was invited to sit down for an hour and to talk with frank cordiality. As he departed from the president's residence, he was asked to come back for another conference next Tuesday."
Subheading 1: "President Von Hindenburg However, Imposes Certain Restrictions That May Prevent Acceptance New Honors." Subheading 2: " Limitations Set" Subheading 3: "Must Not Tamper With Reichswehr, Emergency Decrees And Other Safeguards of Law and Order; Nazi Leader Replies." "After nine years of striving, Adolf Hitler today received a mandate to form a cabinet, but it was under conditions which immediately at least, he could not accept. ..."
"Besieged by two groups of conflicting advisers, Adolf Hitler, leader of the National Socialist, decided today to put off until tomorrow his reply to President Von Hindenburg's reiterated conditional proffer of the chancellorship."
Bottom Caption: "Adolf Hitler writes President Paul Von Hindenburg that restrictions placed on proffered chancellorship of Germany are too cramping to insure successful administration of the high office."
Subheading 1: "Counter Offer" Subheading 2: " Nazi Leader Declares He Cannot Solve German Situation on Purely Parliamentary Basis of Action." Expected Nazi Tripe Follows
Subheading:"President of Republic Expresses Lack Confidence In Nazi Leader To Control Reichstag; Now Looking for Another Candidate" "President Von Hindenburg, who offered to make Adolf Hitler chancellor of Germany if he could guarantee the support of the Reichstag, withdrew that offer today and called in leaders of the other parties to consider another candidate." "At any rate he could not command that support. The National Socialist party is the largest in the Reichstag but it is far short of a majority and Hitler could not swing the Nationalists or the Bavarian party into line." "He told the president last night he could not control the Reichstag, but he renewed his proposal that Von Hindenburg make him head of a 'presidential' cabinet to rule without consulting the parliament." "The president's refusal today made it plain that he has not sufficient confidence in Hitler to place him at the head of a government like that which Franz Von Papen headed, to rule solely with the presidential authority."
Follow the Associated Press reporting on the joint investigation by the Italian Police and the Papal gendarmerie. It is interesting and determined the target was Cardinal Pacelli. Unexploded bombs were summer of 1931, and February 13, 1932.
Subheading: "Former Chancellor Von Scheicher Is Killed" "In a day of summary punishment for those who challenged his authority--the denouncement of the crisis of recent weeks hastened by the disclosure of immoral orgies indulged in by leaders of his own Nazi storm troops -- the chancellor 'liquidated' leaders of a threefold opposition; the reactionary monarchists, the 'Catholic Action" group, and the left wing storm troopers who plotted his end." "Heinrich Klausner, leader of the 'Catholic Action' group was shot to death". — Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) 17:08, 16 December 2022 (UTC) — HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Paul von Hindenburg gravely ill. Purge begins. von Papen placed under house arrest. "When reports of the calling together of physicians reached Berlin the rumor was quickly revived that von Hindenburg had written a 'political will' naming the conservative von Papen as his successor and enjoining the army, always faithful to the president, to help him if necessary". — Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) 20:19, 15 December 2022 (UTC) — HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Notable quotes from the article: "With the dead in Germany's 'blood purge' reaching several hundred, according to a reliable source, Chancellor Adolf Hitler today moved to strengthen his hold on the Reich by replacing the conservative, non-Nazi vice-Chancellor Franz Von Papen. It was expected that before the end of the day Herman Wilhelm Goering, co-purger with Hitler in the ruthless suppression of 'traitors,' would be elevated to the vice-chancellorship." "President Von Hindenburg's strong protective hand was thrown around Von Papen after the 86 year old executive had congratulated Hitler and Goering on their "liquidation" with bullets of conservative and radical rebels against Hitlerism." "But when Von Hindenburg spoke Hitler took steps to protect von Papen whose criticism of radical Nazis two weeks ago was the first public sign of rumblings preceeding the 'bloody Saturday' of suppression." "Major Mueldner von Muelhmheim, for many years adjutant to the former Crown Prince Friedrich Wilhelm, was arrested because of his friendship for General Kurt von Schleicher, killed with his wife while 'resisting arrest' Saturday." "The remarkable vitality of Von Hindenburg, hero of the army and the people, was demonstrated forcibly in his actions today." "Yesterday his condition was so alarming that a "'major medical council' was called at his estate. Today he was able to walk in this garden and to speak vigorously on matters vitally affecting the beloved Germany which he has served in war and peace for more than half a century."
SubHeading: "Status Is Uncertain" "Vice-Chancellor Said Appointed By Chief Executive as Check Against Extremists." Notable quotes from the article: "Out of a momentous night conference between Chancellor Adolf Hitler and President Paul Von Hindeburg at the latter's country estate, Germany looked today for an answer to the big question mark arising from the 'second Nazi revolution'-the political fate of Vice Chancellor Franz Von Papen, staunch friend of von Hindenburg." "The future of von Papen was acknowledged to be of paramount importance to the nation, and, in turn, the world, for if he remained in the government Hitler would be hindered in his reported scheme for tightening the Nazi reins and if he went out a sweeping cabinet shakeup was forseen." "Reliable sources pointed out that under the terms by which Hindenburg accepted the Hitler regime early in 1933, Von Papen was to be the President's confidante and informant, a check and balance."
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- Contemporaneous press accounts are no substitute for citations from reliable secondary sources by reputable historians. What appears to be the case at the time may not be an accurate reflection of reality. Do you have citations from secondary sources? Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:09, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
- A reputable historian will never call himself a secondary source for events that happened nearly a century ago. HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk) 21:47, 15 December 2022 (UTC)— HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Contemporaneous press accounts are either primary sources or secondary sources. A historian's opinion is not a source. HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk) 19:10, 16 December 2022 (UTC)— HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- That is not correct. The opinions of experts are always considered to be reliable sources, although they should be presented as their opinions. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:43, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Contemporaneous press accounts are no substitute for citations from reliable secondary sources by reputable historians. What appears to be the case at the time may not be an accurate reflection of reality. Do you have citations from secondary sources? Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:09, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
- <redacted copyright violations> — Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) 19:31, 16 December 2022 (UTC) — HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Look you need to stop with the WP:WALLOFTEXT. You are quoting far too much and we're going into copyright territory here. You are welcome to make specific improvements to the article or to suggest them, but you're playing around far too generally here and introducing wide swaths of facts that are strictly WP:UNDUE for a bio of this Pope. This pertains to one aspect of his reign, albeit major, but we need to keep it in perspective. Elizium23 (talk) 22:18, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- @HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst, I've begun reverting your additions. Please do not add any more copyrighted material to this page. This is a talk page for discussion of article improvement, not a dumping ground for arbitrary data. Elizium23 (talk) 22:34, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- You're not getting it. You are not allowed to post copyrighted material anywhere on Misplaced Pages, except for short excerpts. Please see WP:Copyright violations and WP:NFCC, and stop posting copyright violations. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:43, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Copyright expired on these articles. I was providing excerpts for your convenience. HistoryAndPoliticalAnalyst (talk) 23:31, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
"Pope Pius XII: Illness and death" listed at Redirects for discussion
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"Pope Pius XII: illness and death" listed at Redirects for discussion
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