Talk:Psychic surgery: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 19:40, 12 August 2007 editMartinphi (talk \| contribs)12,452 edits →Pseudoscience link, Quackery category ← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 06:24, 14 January 2024 edit undoCewbot (talk \| contribs)Bots7,867,037 editsm Maintain {{WPBS}} and vital articles: 7 WikiProject templates. Keep majority rating "B" in {{WPBS}}. Remove 4 same ratings as {{WPBS}} in {{WikiProject Paranormal}}, {{WikiProject Skepticism}}, {{WikiProject Medicine}}, {{WikiProject Alternative medicine}}.
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	{{~~Rational~~ ~~Skepticism~~\|class=B}}		{{WikiProject banner shell\|collapsed=yes\|class=B\|1=
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	==NPOVness==
			{{WikiProject Spirituality}}
	"Psychic Surgery" is, and always was a sleight-of-hand trick. NPOV does not require equivocation of fact and fraud. -- ]
			{{WikiProject Medicine\|importance=Low}}
	:It is not equivocation. It is simply providing a neutral, disinterested approach that all parties involved can agree to. I have explained the ] position to you at least four times now. ''It is not negotiable.'' If you continue to make the same edits, I'm going to have to get admins involved which may possibly lead to you being banned. I don't want that and neither do you. -- ] <sup>]]</sup> 05:58, May 23, 2005 (UTC)
			{{WikiProject Alternative medicine}}
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			{{WikiProject Psychology}}
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			== Kaufman ==
	], although I agree with that "psychic surgery" is a con game, your edits, which simply assert this on no authority but your own, are not acceptable. Currently, and in its form before your first edit, the article states clearly that "Scientists, traditional medical doctors and stage magicians generally dismiss such practices as mere sleight-of-hand tricks, where the psychic doctor simply produces concealed blood and parts that he had suitably hidden in advance. Notably, debunker and retired magician James Randi has shown an ability to mimic psychic surgery." The ''current'' article contains a paragraph which uses carefully-weaselled language to associate the practice with superstition and fraud. There is no danger at all that anyone would read the article as an endorsement of the reality of psychic surgery.

			I'd say that stating he declared he was cured without a citation should be removed. If he stated it there has to be a source somewhere. If he didn't say it then the statement should be removed. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 05:35, 26 February 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	If you are not happy with the article, you can include additional material on the "anti" side--for example I think that ''in the United States'' there ''have'' been authorities who have taken action against the practice as fraudulent. But they have to be neutral and properly sourced and reference. You must imagine that this article is being reviewed by someone intelligent who believes in psychic surgery, and you must imagine that person saying "I really don't like your putting that in, but I have to acknowledge, grudgingly, that it is factual."

			: ¡Oh yeah! Kaughman has perfect health now. If it would not have worked, he would have died from cancer, but his running and winning marathons all over the world proves that psychic surgery cured him. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 01:03, 24 October 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	Third-party quotations are your friend here. The formula is "X said Y about Z." You can't say "Psychic surgery is a fraud," but if you can find a newspaper article that says "Attorney-General so-and-so denounced psychic surgery as a fraud" you can put in a quotation from the article.

			== External links modified ==
	And if an editor shows up who believes in and is knowledgeable about psychic surgery, you and I have to accept any similar material that they put in the article.

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	Do not simply conduct a revert war with ] or he may file a Request for Comment on your behavior or take other steps. Believe me, you cannot "win" a revert war simply by pitbull tenacity; it doesn't work. You must address the real issues and work with other editors on this. ] ] 10:00, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

			I have just modified {{plural:1\|one external link\|1 external links}} on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	== Unsourced statement removed, pending discussion... ==
			*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.randi.org/encyclopedia/Arigo,%20Jose.html

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' or '''failed''' to let others know (documentation at {{tlx\|Sourcecheck}}).
	:The procedure is practiced predominantly in underdeveloped countries such as the ] and ], where practitioners can arguably take advantage of a ] populace, and where enforcement of anti-fraud statutes is low on government's priorities.

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false}}
	Primarily in Phillippines and Brazil... OK. The rest seems awfully POV. Is Brazil really an "underdeveloped country?" Is there any backing for the statement that "enforcement of anti-fraud statues is low on government's priorities?" ] ] 14:58, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

			Cheers.—]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">]:Online</sub></small> 10:59, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
	I believe that for reasons of perceived political correctness, the person who wrote that was using "underdeveloped" to mean the classification of countries formerly known as Third and Fourth World countries. In fact, the term "lesser-developed nation" was the preferred term in the european economist community in 2002, and I have not become aware of any change; the term in its economic sense would definately apply in a general way to both Brazil and the Phillippines. Of course, I also think the original quote was written and presented in an awfully unprofessional and decidedly un-Wikipedian fashion, and deserves cleanup. That said, neither can be considered a world power at this point, in any arena in which countries are usually compared. I can't speak to the stance of their governments regarding anti-fraud, since I'm not up on their policies, but while I agree that any such statement should be backed up with sources, I don't think it's so suspect as to be taken out without counter-evidence. Trying to be helpful, hope I haven't stepped wrong.

			==Psychic surgery, a pseudoscience constituting medical fraud==
	== FTC action highly relevant ==
			I've been to a psychic surgeon, and he helped me a lot with my back. Helped my wife even more.
			Then, reading the start of this article.. :)
			What to say. ] (]) 19:26, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
			:If you think it's biased you're welcome to modify the start of the article, provided you cite ]. ] (]) 14:06, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

			== External links modified ==
	I'm restoring this paragraph:

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	:The procedure was discredited by the U. S. Federal Trade Commission in 1975. In a unanimous opinion, the commission declared that "'psychic surgery' is nothing but a total hoax." Judge Daniel H. Hanscom, in granting the FTC an injunction against travel agencies promoting psychic surgery tours, said: "Psychic surgery is pure and unmitigated fakery. The 'surgical operations' of psychic surgeons ... with their bare hands are simply phony."

			I have just modified one external link on ]. Please take a moment to review ]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	It's highly relevant, and probably the most important single action taken in the U. S. in regard to psychic surgery. The sources are two New York Times articles cited in the "references" secton. ] ] 09:54, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070202112741/http://www.bccancer.bc.ca/PPI/UnconventionalTherapies/PsychicSurgery.htm to http://www.bccancer.bc.ca/PPI/UnconventionalTherapies/PsychicSurgery.htm

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	== Globe and Mail links? ==

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	Well, I'm baffled. If I the top link is to the Globe and Mail... and when I click on it I get the ''entire'' story.

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 07:00, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
	But if I take that same link and paste it into my browser's URL field... I get a few lines from the article and instructions on how to purchase it.

			== Death ==
	Anyone know how to get a link like Google's that does not require purchase? ] ] 16:43, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

			The actor Peter Sellers died after going to one in the Philippines.
	== Mister Orbito ==
			Should add to article.

	Added 2 links, one to a credulous new age website and one to rickross.com.] 10:53, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

			~~Bill~~ ] (]) 00:04, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
	== Seeking expert eyes on ] ==

	Hi all. I'd like to ask you, as people familiar with topics on or related to paranormal activity, to review the work at ], "the girl with X-ray eyes", which has been undergoing a tug-of-war between a primary source and one of his critics. I've tried to bring it to at least NPOV but apparently I muddled the technicalities and there are still sourcing needs.

	Would appreciate your comments -- the article is currently under protection but I think it can be taken out shortly.

	TIA, - ] ] 21:12, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

	== Pseudoscience link, Quackery category ==

	In the light of findings by the FDA that ""'psychic surgery' is nothing but a total hoax;" by a federal judge that "Psychic surgery is pure and unmitigated fakery;" and by the American Cancer Society that it "found no evidence that 'psychic surgery' results in objective benefit in the treatment of any medical condition," the Quackery category and the Pseudoscience link are appropriate. They are neutral because of the verifiable source citations showing that some authorities find it a hoax, fakery, and valueless.

	''For the same reason,'' the links to ] and its inclusion in the categories Supernatural healing and Parapsychology are '''also''' appropriate and neutral.

	Psychic surgery belongs in the supernatural healing category because it is factually true that a substantial number of people hold it to be supernatural healing.

	Psychic surgery ''also'' belongs in the quackery category because it is factually true that a substantial number of people hold it to be quackery.

	Categories and links are there to help people find related information, not to pass some kind of final judgement on the truth or falsity of something. ] ] 02:08, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

	:It isn't pseudoscience since it doesn't pretend to be scientific for the most part.] 02:09, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

	::Methinks that the "quackery" category tag is appropriate and NPOV. Independently of whether psychic surgery '''is''' quackery or not, it certainly '''is relevant to''' that topic. (Just as (say) "fraud" would be relevant to the topic of "law".) Besides, if classifying as "quackery" were POV, so would be classifying it as "supernatural healing".<br>As for "pseudoscience", many psychic surgeons make physics-sounding claims, with scientific terms like "vibrations", "energy", and the like (check Romero's quote). Many scientists see such declarations as attempts to make the craft seem "scientific". Again, independently of whether that is true or not, psychic surgery is certainly relevant to the topic "pseud-science".<br>All the best, --] 04:29, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

	:::I can't get <nowiki>]</nowiki> to work. –––''']''' <sub>(] Ψ ])</sub> 19:40, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

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Kaufman

I'd say that stating he declared he was cured without a citation should be removed. If he stated it there has to be a source somewhere. If he didn't say it then the statement should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.155.48.112 (talk) 05:35, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

¡Oh yeah! Kaughman has perfect health now. If it would not have worked, he would have died from cancer, but his running and winning marathons all over the world proves that psychic surgery cured him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.233.65 (talk) 01:03, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

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Psychic surgery, a pseudoscience constituting medical fraud

I've been to a psychic surgeon, and he helped me a lot with my back. Helped my wife even more. Then, reading the start of this article.. :) What to say. Gsoler (talk) 19:26, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

If you think it's biased you're welcome to modify the start of the article, provided you cite reliable sources. Uanfala (talk) 14:06, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070202112741/http://www.bccancer.bc.ca/PPI/UnconventionalTherapies/PsychicSurgery.htm to http://www.bccancer.bc.ca/PPI/UnconventionalTherapies/PsychicSurgery.htm

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Death

The actor Peter Sellers died after going to one in the Philippines. Should add to article.

~~Bill~~ 2607:FEA8:4A2:4100:E4D8:1994:2E91:D60 (talk) 00:04, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

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