Revision as of 04:55, 27 December 2007 editAnythingyouwant (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Template editors91,260 editsm move quotes← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 02:27, 17 January 2025 edit undoRed-tailed hawk (talk | contribs)Edit filter managers, Administrators32,799 edits →Result concerning Luganchanka: ReplyTag: Reply | ||
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==Lemabeta== | |||
=Edit this section for new requests= | |||
{{hat|{{u|Lemabeta}} has acknowledged the warnings here to take more care and stay well clear of articles from which they are restricted from editing. Further violations are very likely to lead to sanctions, up to and including an indefinite block. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 12:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC) }} | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning Lemabeta=== | |||
=== ] <-> ] === | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|EF5}} 20:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
---- | |||
:''This issue was originally posted on ]'' --<small> ]</small> <sup>]</sup> 01:58, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
---- | |||
*{{article|Turkics in Armenia}} <-> {{article|Azerbaijanis in Armenia}} | |||
**] and <s>]</s> seems to want the title "Azerbaijanis in Armenia" | |||
**] and ] seems to want the title "Turkics in Armenia" | |||
*] | |||
*] | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Lemabeta}}<p>{{ds/log|Lemabeta}}</p> | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
A slow paced move war seems to be the case. I do not know the details (did not really looked deep into it) but there seems to be a problem. People may have been violated their revert parole from the linked arbcom case above. In any case an admin review is necesary. | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
I am particularly bothered by VartanM's conduct on ] as he is removing reliable (governmental) sources: | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
--<small> ]</small> <sup>]</sup> 01:31, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> | |||
:Thanks for reporting and notifying. This is a content dispute, which revolves around what sort of material should go into the article. As for ASALA, Turkish governmental sources can not be considered reliable, and neutral since the Turkish government was the primary target of ASALA. And we all know what Turkish government thinks about Armenians. You are welcome to provide neutral sources. I suggest looking in the TKB. ] (]) 00:05, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
# - Made a draft on a European ethnic group, which they are currently barred from doing. | |||
::Content dispute or not, revet parole maybe at work. I'll let an admin or two decide on the verdict. | |||
# - Started a page on a Georgian ethnologist. | |||
::This statement adds to the problem. I find it inflammatory. Governmental sources are well within ]. Obviously the Ugandan government will not cover ASALA attacks... | |||
::--<small> ]</small> <sup>]</sup> 00:18, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::I will always welcome mediators and third opinions in Armenia-Azerbaijan disputes. Judging by the month old diff you brought it up, you can't provide neither. I am still waiting for the explanation in the talkpage of ASALA article. If you want a constructive environment, you shouldn't revert the article to your proffered version and then report the other party to ANI. Back to the | |||
:::Azers/Turkics in Armenia the only outcome I see is having two sapperate articles, one for Azerbaijanis in Armenia, another for Turkics in Armenia. You can not have an article about Turkic tribes, some of whom are distinctly different from Azeris and call the article Azeris in Armenia. If there are any volunteers who are willing to help us divide the article, they can express their views in the talkpage. ] (]) 00:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::"And we all know what Turkish government thinks about Armenians." <- That is racist and inflammatory. | |||
::::It seems like the only problem you have with the Governmental source is that it is Turkish... | |||
::::--<small> ]</small> <sup>]</sup> 01:13, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:I consider racist and inflammatory. It was uncalled for! I am beginning to think someone is gaming the system. | |||
:Judging by the overwhelming number of Azerbaijan-Armenia posts here, I think a 3rd arbcom case is necesary. | |||
:--<small> ]</small> <sup>]</sup> 01:45, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::Good for you, but you are wrong. This is not a secret, it's common knowledge. The Turkish governments attitude towards Armenians in general is not far from the Third Reichs attitude towards the Jews mildly put. Any publication on the Turkish MFA site for example concerning Armenians is vile and racist:. A growing number of Turkish people in Turkey are sick and tired with their government and their position as a result, like them you should condemn the government instead of supporting their sick and deranged propaganda. Weren't you a party of an arbitration case that dealt with this topic as a matter of fact several years ago that got you banned from the Armenian Genocide article? --<big>''' ] '''</font></big><sup><small>]</sup></small> 03:36, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::: I also think that third arbcom is inevitable. POV push and edit warring by a certain group of editors has to stop. ] (]) 05:39, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::I never got banned from any article and even if I had, that still would not justify your conduct here. Who is my government again? I never announced such a thing. You know, I have been ''accused'' of being from so many nationalities it ain't even interesting anymore. I do not believe this will be tolerated any longer. --<small> ]</small> <sup>]</sup> 12:57, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
Eupator, this is not a place for ]. Sufficient to say that up to 100,000 Armenians today reside in Turkey, have their own church and functioning patriarchate, while not a single Turkic soul (apart from 100 people you mentioned) is left in Armenia. And about Third Reich and Jews, if I may - - as recent as yesterday, December 23rd. This is while, Turkey has been a safehaven for Jews fleeing Inquisition in middle ages and Holocaust in 20th century. In any case, what's relevant in Misplaced Pages are specific comments by Misplaced Pages contributors, and hope you come up with facts to support your statements next time. Otherwise, please, assume good faith. Thanks. ] (]) 09:52, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
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*Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above. | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
I likely filed this improperly, but to sum it up they continue to make pages in a scope they were banned from. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 20:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:On the bullet point, I’ve never filed an AE report before, and I wasn’t sure if “block” meant T-ban, p-block, etc., so I just picked whichever one made the most sense. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 21:45, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:(Not sure if I’m allowed to reply here) I’ve never filed an AE report before, and I wasn’t sure if “block” meant T-ban, p-block, etc., so I just picked whichever one made the most sense. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 21:45, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:: <small>Response to Bishonen. Moved from results section. ] (]/]) 21:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
::(RES to Bishonen) That's fair. When starting the AE, it only gave me nine options, none of which seemed to fit right. The third bullet ("Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on DIFF by _____") didn't seem to fit, as the sanction wasn't for verbal conduct. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 22:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
===Discussion concerning Lemabeta=== | |||
:It is always convenient for you to soapbox about this issue and claim it is not the place to soapbox. The only person who soapboxed is you; Eupator explained why the statement is not racist. There have been more anti-Jewish actions in Turkey then there will even be in Armenia multiplied by a factor of few thousands. Three part of a series on The Middle East Media Research Institute. , , . The anti-semitism (not real anti-semitism) in Armenia is directly related to Israel acting as a puppet of Turkey supporting its politics on the Armenian Genocide issue. While the anti-semitism in both Turkey and Azerbaijan are the belief in a Jewish world domination of some sort, the belief of Islamist fanatics. The Ottomans opened their doors to the Jews not to save them but they opened their doors to the Jews to populate them in Greek and Armenian quarters to fight against those minority groups’ economical supremacy. It was also Turkey which installed the Capital Tax against its Jewish, Armenian and Greek population in World War II, near identical to the Reich tax to have them out from Turkey. Had Turkey not been Israel's ally, right now we would have Israeli lawyers or Jewish organizations suing it for the missing worth of hundred of millions of gold which passed by Turkey. Besides, it is scholars like Pierre Vidal-Naquet (Holocaust specialist) who compares the modern Turkish regime position toward the Armenians as the Third Reich and its ambassadors to Himmlers. If notable scholars can make such comparisons, so can Eupator, Vartan etc. - ] (]) 19:07, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by Lemabeta==== | |||
Content dispute. Unless you want an admin to arbitrarily make a decision for you, don't bring these here. Further comparison of Turkey with Nazi Germany is not recommended. ] ] 19:20, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
Yeah, my bad. Didn't realize translation of a page of ethnographic group would count as a violation of my topic ban about "history of the Caucasus and its cultural heritage, broadly construed" I recognize my mistake. --] (]) 20:30, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:How much more will we ''good'' users have to tolerate such nonsense? VartanM, Eupator, Fedayee has such a constant inflammatory tone. The above conduct basically is a test of my patience. You state that such contribution isn't recommended. Shouldn't it be banned? --<small> ]</small> <sup>]</sup> 01:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
VartanM placed on A-A 2's restriction. - ] | <sup>] / ]</sup> 22:53, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:What is A-A 2 restriction. I would welcome so that ignorant masses (that would be me) know precisely what it means. :) --<small> ]</small> <sup>]</sup> 01:29, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::] is also removing sourced content . --<small> ]</small> <sup>]</sup> 01:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::Not content, but biased non-reliable, non-governmental source, which you're pushing. ] (]) 01:43, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::Minister of Culture of Turkey is a governmental source unless you do not consider ] as a country. Turkish government is QUITE reliable. ] of ] (MIPT), a non-profit organization funded by the United States ] is also quite reliable. Have you actually checked the diff? --<small> ]</small> <sup>]</sup> 14:18, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::::White Cat, an admin comment on "reliability" of that Turkish "source" on Armenian Genocide denial and Armenian "terrorism" is added to the article's talk. Pls read it! ] (]) 15:10, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::White Cat: ] is the restriction. - ] | <sup>] / ]</sup> 04:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:Ethnographic groups and cultural heritage are '''related but distinct concepts'''. An ''ethnographic group'' refers to a '''community of people''' defined by shared ancestry, language, traditions, and cultural identity. In contrast, ''cultural heritage'' refers to the *''practices, artifacts, knowledge, and traditions preserved or inherited from the past''. But cultural heritage is indeed a component of ethnographic groups. | |||
I find it truly amazing that no one is seeing anything at all. It's really sad. Eupator gave his time in expanding an article and had it sabotaged, Vartan on the other hand has to deal with Atabek’s provocations by having to deal with someone who compares the Armenian regime with NAZI Germany. We have Ehud, who we all know is Adil. Vartan was the one member without a restriction who had to deal with two members, who were using the fact that they had no restriction by simply reverting and only Vartan could have done anything about it. | |||
:So i don't believe ethnographic group should be considered as either history of the Caucasus or cultural heritage. ] (]) 20:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::In my opinion, cultural heritage (both tangible and intangible) '''emerges from''' ethnographic groups but '''does not define the group itself'''. ] (]) 20:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I think ethnographic groups fall under the category of Ethnography, or even socio-cultural antropology but for sure not cultural heritage. ] (]) 21:09, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::I understand, i already apologized on my talk page for this accident. I will not repeat this mistake again. ] (]) 21:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
Here you have Atabek talking about an event which a few hours later, Ehud adds to an article. | |||
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> | |||
===Result concerning Lemabeta=== | |||
Also, I don't see in any way how the summary of Vartan is offending, if they want to have the article on the Azeris in Armenia, then they should cover only those. I don't think the Turkmen, the Turks, the Tartars etc., would like to be called in mass as Azeri. - ] (]) 08:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
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* I don't see Lemabeta mentioned in the case itself, but they're currently under ] from "the history of the Caucasus and its cultural heritage, broadly construed". ] (] • she/her) 20:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:To be fair, when you click above to add a new enforcement request, the template states:<br><nowiki>;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ]</nowiki><br><nowiki><!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---></nowiki> ] (]/]) 20:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*{{tq| Didn't realize translation of a page of ethnographic group would count as a violation of my topic ban about "history of the Caucasus and its cultural heritage, broadly construed"}} @]: what did you think "the history of the Caucasus and its cultural heritage" meant? I think it's pretty obvious that that an article on an ethnic group from the Caucasus and about an ethnologist who writes about that region is covered by your topic ban. ] (]/]) 20:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:Note that I've deleted ] as a clear G5 violation. I think ] is a bit more of a questionable G5. ] (]/]) 20:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:Your definition of "ethnographic group" includes the phrases "shared ancestry" (i.e., history), and "shared ... traditions" and "shared ... cultural identity" (i.e., cultural heritage). Your attempt to exclude "ethnographic group" from either of the two categories in your topic ban is entirely unpersuasive, particularly since your topic ban is to be "broadly construed". ] (]/]) 21:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:@]: this doesn't seem like a mistake to me, but I'm okay with a logged warning here. ] (]/]) 21:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:@]: This is about violating the TBAN. Per my response to leek, I think the issue is with the AE request template, which is a bit unclear. ] (]/]) 22:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:@]: I don't think a block is needed here, but the next violation, definitely. ] (]/]) 22:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:@]: They were "reviously given ... contentious topic restriction", the topic ban at issue. ] (]/]) 22:09, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* {{re|Lemabeta}} Not every single thing you could write about an ethnic group would fall under cultural history, but that's not really relevant on the Rachvelians page, where the History section was entirely about their cultural history, even containing the words {{tqq| highlighting their ethnographic and cultural identity}}. There's a reason we use the words "]" on most TBANs, and a reason we encourage people to act like they're TBANned from a broader area than they are. (Consider: Would you feel safe driving under a bridge where clearance is exactly the same height as your vehicle? Or would you need a few inches' gap to feel safe doing it?){{pb}}This does seem like a good-faith misunderstanding, so if you will commit to not making it again in the future, I think this can be closed with a clarification/warning. But that's an important "if". If you want to argue semantics, then the message that sends to admins is that you don't intend to comply with the TBAN, in which case the next step would be a siteblock. <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">[]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 21:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*{{u|EF5}}, I don't understand your {{tq|"Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above"}} statement, can you please explain what it refers to? ]? Lemabeta's block log is blank. | |||
:That said, I'm unimpressed by Lemabeta's lawyerly distinctions above, and also by ]. I'll AGF that they ''were'' accidental, but OTOH, they surely ''ought'' to have taken enough care to realize they were violations; compare Voorts' examples. I suggest a block, not sure of what length. A couple of weeks? ] | ] 21:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC). | |||
::{{u|EF5}}, OK, I see. Blocks and bans are ], and the block log only logs blocks. ] | ] 22:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC). | |||
*It seems that the general consensus here is to treat this as a final warning, and Lemabeta has acknowledged it as such. Unless any uninvolved admin objects within the next day or so, I will close as such. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 01:16, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{hab}} | |||
== GokuEltit == | |||
: The one who really expanded this article was Parishan, and Eupator deleted many of his edits. Then together with Vartan they tried to move the article to a new title without any consensus on talk with other involved editors, and in his last edit Vartan deleted plenty of sourced info again. Also, Fedayee, you presented no compelling evidence that Ehud is somehow related to Adil, and checkuser does not support your claims either. You were advised by the admins not to claim that Ehud is Adil unless it is officially proved that he is, but you keep on baiting this user by your baseless allegations. How long is this gonna continue? ] (]) 11:46, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
{{hat|Issues on the Spanish Misplaced Pages will need to be handled there; the English Misplaced Pages has no authority or control over what happens on the Spanish project. This noticeboard is only for requesting enforcement of English Misplaced Pages arbitration decisions. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 22:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC) }} | |||
I was blocked from Misplaced Pages for ignoring the formatting of a table, I edited an article wrong, Bajii banned me for 2 weeks, but it didn't even take 1 and Hasley changed it to permanent, I tried to make an unban request, they deleted it and blocked my talk page. I asked for help on irc, an admin tried to help me make another unblock request, but the admin jem appeared and told me that I was playing the victim and banned me and expelled me from irc. I just want to contribute to the platform ] (]) 20:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:{{ping|GokuEltit}} This is a complaint about Spanish Misplaced Pages - see ], where you have (). Your block affects Spanish-language Misplaced Pages - it does not affect English-language Misplaced Pages.<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:10pt;color:#000000">--] ]</span> 20:27, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:You also had some blocks on Commons, but they have expired.<sup></sup><span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:10pt;color:#000000">--] ]</span> 20:30, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{hab}} | |||
==Boy shekhar== | |||
::Grandmaster, pls look on your edits before asking about others. We need common standards here! Im the only person who really expanded to ] and you deleted many of my edits and moved to ] without any consensus. And do you remember, how without marking any facts you wikistalked me saying Im a sock of user Artaxiad until I was blocked and re-opened just because an admin get sure Im not a sock but a newbie who dont know how to self-defence! Had you any facts that I was a sock of Artaxiad then? ] (]) 12:28, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
{{hat | |||
::: That article eventually got moved by admins to another provisional title, since the one created by you was POV. And I only filed a cu on you, that does not amount to wikistalking and was quite justified considering the amount of sockpuppetry on this topic. I advised Fedayee many times to do the same with regard to Ehud and follow the established procedures to deal with his suspicions. ] (]) 12:58, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
| result = Blocked by Rosguill as a regular administrative action. ] (]) 23:57, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
}} | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning Boy shekhar=== | |||
::::Admin movings (also called by you a POV) is another case I wrote about your unconsensused info deletions and moving. And why wikistalkings by you are justified considering the amount of sockpuppetry on Armenia-Azerbaijan topic, and when Fedayee disputtes Ehud's sockpuppetry, you represent it as an significant point (problem) here? ] (]) 15:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Daniel Quinlan}} 06:34, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Boy shekhar}}<p>{{ds/log|Boy shekhar}}</p> | |||
::Parishan’s contribution on Misplaced Pages overall has been disruptive, we have documented in the previous case that he has edited countless articles to have the term Azerbaijani added when it should not have been done. If another case is opened, we will document how he has created countless articles about individuals which do not pass the test of notability. Parishan’s contribution on Misplaced Pages look to be centered on adding the term Azerbaijani, and adding as many articles (which otherwise will not pass the test of notability) to have that word there. This is more particularly related to events covering periods where the Azerbaijani identity did not exist. You claim that some group of editors’ POV pushing should be covered and another arbitration is necessary. During the two arbitration cases, you have failed to document any POV pushing; we on the other hand during the second arbitration case have loaded the evidence page with POV pushing which was ignored totally. We have dozens of pages documenting POV pushing and I agree on a next arbitration about POV pushing, this is what I wanted during the last one, and I will oppose any new arbitration which would not be centered on that because a new case which would not deal with this would be a waste of time. | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
::And this time the evidence, which had it been available or known by some of us during the first case, would have probably changed the final decision, particularly on Atabek. So yes, I want a third arbitration too but only if this time it is taken more seriously. And yes Ehud is Adil, and evidence points that Elsanturk is behind this Ehud thing too, all that is needed is a new arbitration case with fresh blood… maybe the arbitration this time will be reading the evidence... - ] (]) 18:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
:::Fedayee, - what an incredible waste of community's time... After it's once more clarified that Ehud Lesar and AdilBaguirov are not the same person, I suggest that you apologize to these and all other contributors, with regards to whom you just keep on assuming bad faith. ] (]) 01:39, 27 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
I don't think the inclusion of my name in this report was appropriate. I only moved the article once , almost a week ago, for 2 reasons which I clearly explained on the talk page: | |||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> | |||
*{{diff2|1268704307|This edit}} violates the topic ban because it is in the topic area. It's also based on an unreliable source and the section header includes a derogatory term. | |||
; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any : | |||
* 1. There is no such word as "Turkics" in English vocabulary | |||
<!-- To the extent it may be relevant, link to previous sanctions such as blocks or topic bans.--> | |||
* 2. The article content for 99% deals with the eradicated Azerbaijani community in Armenia | |||
*{{diff2|972891251|Here}} is the topic ban for {{tpq|persistent insertion of ], use of unreliable sources or no sources at all, and ]}}. | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
I don't know to what extent my single page title change with justification is considered edit warring, in light of Eupator or VartanM revert activity, just check . | |||
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*Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on by {{admin|Doug Weller}}. | |||
*Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on (see the system log linked to above). | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
In the rest, if someone wants to expand and use Turkic instead of Azeri to describe the unfortunate fate of Turkic-speakers in Armenia in light of the policies of anti-Turkism and ongoing conflicts, then fine. It seems that some contributors think that by purging out or replacing the name "Azeri" or "Azerbaijani" from articles or their titles is going to add anything encyclopedic. ] (]) 22:46, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
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*I've edited the article so I am involved. ] (]) 06:34, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:{{ping|Vanamonde93}} No, I don't think you're being too harsh. I think you're right. My thinking was that if I was uninvolved, I would have blocked them under ] so I sleepily submitted it here last night instead of ANI, which is what I should have done. ] (]) | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
:::: My goodness, now Elsanturk is Ehud too, or the other way around. Perhaps, Atabek and Grandmaster are Adils too. Who else who's not supported Armenian point of view? Parishan, Aynabend, etc. With this logic, we will all "become socks" soon. I agree with Atabek. I hope Fedayee and others who try so hard to relate me to any other names are demanded an apology when everything becomes clear. (] (]) 03:55, 27 December 2007 (UTC)) | |||
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==]== | |||
===Discussion concerning Boy shekhar=== | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by Boy shekhar==== | |||
{{User|Eupator}} was a party to both and ArbCom cases. According to the remedies imposed on him in these cases, {{User|Eupator}} is subject to supervised editing and "is limited to one revert per page per week, excepting obvious vandalism". | |||
====Statement by Vanamonde==== | |||
However on ] he moved the page to a new title twice without any consensus on talk: , and then deleted large content from the article, which according to ] is also considered a revert: | |||
This user hasn't edited for 4.5 years since they were TBANned, and none of their 31 edits show any ability to follow our PAGs. At the risk of sounding harsh, an extended AE discussion is a waste of time; a passing admin should indef them (I cannot, I am INVOLVED on most of the content they have edited). ] (]) 23:26, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:{{re|Daniel Quinlan}} Apologies if that sounded like a criticism of you, it wasn't intended as such: I'm just advocating for the first uninvolved admin who sees this to block and close. ] (]) 00:14, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
] (]) 09:25, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:Moving the page twice is a violation of revert parole, as far as I can see (though removing the content is not, the policy is just badly phrased) but 3 days after the violation any block would be overly punitive. Eupator can consider himself warned not do so again, if you please. ] <sup> ]</sup> 15:08, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::No it's not. Move # 1 was a regular edit. Move number # 2 was a revert. How on earth is this a violation? This is not a violation, the move was a consequence of my edit not the aim. I expanded the article and included data about tribes and more data regarding population movements which was not specific to the Azerbaijani's, had I created one article, the consequences would have been to request the merging because some information covered what is already in the ''Azeris in Armenia'' article. Others moved my article by leaving my additions there which made no sense and was illogical because I really expanded the article and with the already included content it could not have been considered as ''Azeris in Armenia'', so I made a revert, ONCE. This makes one revert, not two. I don't understand why Grandmaster is even including the deletion, it included what I added myself and also information not specific to the Azeris, I took them out to create another article about the Turkic people in Armenia throughout history. I don't see how this counts as a revert, as a revert of what, what I added myself? Where is the second revert? I modified the article, expanded it to be more general, I was reverted for the renaming not the rest, then I reverted. I had 1 revert, the first not being one..., since some people started to edit war, I removed what I had added. Kindly retract your warning or elaborate.--<big>''' ] '''</font></big><sup><small>]</sup></small> 00:41, 24 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
===Result concerning Boy shekhar=== | |||
Eupator removed large chunks of well-presented, relevant and sourced information from the article and drastically modified its content, along with its title. If he wanted to cover the history of Turkic tribes in Armenia, the ] article did not have to suffer. He should simply have started a new section within the article, or a new article, rather than disturbing the one that took almost a month of intense discussion to reach consensus on earlier in 2007, and remained in that form for the past 6 months. Not to mention multiple reverts on Eupator's part, which I believe contradict the Arbcom ruling. Eupator claims he made only one revert, when in fact deleting another user's contributions (in this case, mine) is in fact considered a revert. He started the edit war on the article by moving the page twice without any consensus with other editors on talk. ] (]) 08:07, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
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*Vanamonde93's assessment is spot on, the edit in question is the kind of gross violation of ] we indef people for on the spot even when it's not a TBAN violation. Blocked as a regular admin action. Although I will say, without knowing how exactly Vanamonde93 is involved here, this is so far beyond the pale that they could have gone ahead and blocked on an "any reasonable admin" basis. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 04:49, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{hab}} | |||
==שלומית ליר== | |||
:There never was any consensus on that article. And the only reason why the article remained that way is because Parishan is acting as if thinks he owns the article. Parishan claims that Eupator has removed large chunks of article… what he does not say is that those were irrelevant. The article is used as a vehicle to rewrite history by claiming an identity which was yet not formed. I and Eupator have agreed on a RFC, now Parishan has yet to agree. - ] (]) 19:19, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning שלומית ליר=== | |||
==]== | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Smallangryplanet}} 17:24, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|שלומית ליר}}<p>{{ds/log|שלומית ליר}}</p> | |||
User ] was a party to both and ArbCom cases. According to the remedies imposed on him in these cases, ] is subject to supervised editing and "is limited to one revert per page per week, excepting obvious vandalism. Further, '''he is required to discuss any content reversions on the page's talk page'''." | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
In the ] article, ] made a revert without discussing it on the talk page. Here is his revert: | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation of ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
ShlomitLir (שלומית ליר) created their account back in 2014. The breakdown of their edits is as follows: | |||
It's a partial revert of the article introduction to a prior version. The prior version can be seen here: | |||
*2014 to 2016: no edits. | |||
In his revert, he basically restored the phrase "''within the borders of Azerbaijan''," which had been previously changed to "''entirely surrounded by Azerbaijan''" in the following edit by me: . | |||
*2017 to 2019: 1 edit per year. None related to PIA. | |||
*2022: 7 edits. Mostly in their userspace. | |||
*2023: 21 edits. Again, mostly in their userspace. Made two edits in the talk page of ] complaining about its content and calling it . | |||
* 2024: Started editing after a 10 month break at the end of October. | |||
**Made 51 edits in October and 81 edits in November (copyedits, adding links, minor edits). | |||
**In December, that number rose up to almost 400, including 116 in December 6 alone and 98 in December 7. Became ECR that day. | |||
**Immediately switched to editing in PIA, namely in the ] article where they with an unclear image with a dubious caption, and without providing a reason why. | |||
**They also edited the ] article, with a caption not supported by the source (replaced by yet with a contextless caption when the previous image was removed) and WP:UNDUE content . | |||
**they also in the second AfD for ] despite never having interacted with that article or its previous AfD. They have barely surpassed 500 edits, but the gaming is obvious, highlighted by the sudden switch to editing in PIA. | |||
More importantly, there's the issue of POV pushing. I came across authored by them on Ynet, once again complaining about what they perceive as an anti Israeli bias on Misplaced Pages. They have also authored a report for the World Jewish Congress covering the same topic. The report can be seen in full . I think that someone with this clear POV agenda shouldn't be near the topic. | |||
Note that partial restorations of text--i.e. partial reverts, are still considered reverts: "''However, in the context of the English Misplaced Pages three revert rule, a revert is defined far more broadly as any change to an article that '''partially''' or completely goes back to any older version of an article.''" (]) | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
Grandmaster failed to accompany his revert on the talk page, as required by the ArbCom decision. | |||
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*Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on and re-iterated on (see the system log linked to above). | |||
*Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on by {{admin|Femke}}. | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
Note that Grandmaster's comment on the talk page () does not satisfy this requirement, since he made that comment only in response to ]'s post on the talk page (), after ] had already reverted Grandmaster's revert () and discussed it on the talk page. | |||
Adding some additional comments on 2025-01-16: On top of POV issues, the user has a number of tweets that appear to be a , , , and . They've also been . If this - combined with the tweets, the forms, the op-ed and the report to the WJC, all under this user's name (that they also use to edit Misplaced Pages - this is ) isn't a clear cut case of canvassing, I don't know what is. ] (]) 20:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
Here are the edit histories for the ] article () and the relevant talk page (). | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
--] (]) 18:48, 22 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
===Discussion concerning שלומית ליר=== | |||
: First of all, it is not a revert, second, I left a comment. Frivolous report. ] (]) 07:56, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by שלומית ליר==== | |||
''If'' that is a revert, ''if'' Grandmaster didn't leave a comment exactly as he should - there's too many ''ifs'' in there, so I'm not really inclined to block for such a technical infraction, particularly in the context of the article just being split off from another and tempers raging rather high at the moment. ] <sup> ]</sup> 15:55, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
I believe contents of this filing to be in clear policy violation and have reached out to the arbitration committee for further clarification before commenting further.] (]) 14:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Thebiguglyalien==== | |||
==] == | |||
This is the first ARBPIA report since the proposed decision ] and it's specifically a matter of POV pushing, responding admins should be aware of the "]" remedy. The committee is discussing whether to implement a remedy stating that admins at AE are "empowered and encouraged to consider a topic ban" purely for biased editing. So far, the argument against is that it's redundant because AE admins are already supposed to do this. ] (]) 05:39, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2024-03-29/Special_report | |||
====Statement by Selfstudier==== | |||
Lately user ] has been openly insulting other users, engaging in trolling, and seriously violating the Misplaced Pages policies requiring ] and ] | |||
To the extent that it is relevant, the WJC report was discussed at ]. ] (]) 11:25, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by starship.paint (2)==== | |||
Just in the past 24 hours ] trolled and insulted several times, '''all on this page'''. Following are the examples. | |||
I would to like to raise at ], where there had been an existing unsourced paragraph ({{tq|On the morning of October 7, a tour minibus...}}) that שלומית ליר added to ( / ) from the ]. '''The reference is relevant, but I believe it may not verify every detail in the Battle of Sderot paragraph''' (e.g. "Netivot", "Holocaust survivors"). The reference contains a short paragraph of text and a video that is 4:21 long. I can't watch the video in the reference, but I believe it is this same video that is 4:20 long which contains the same screenshot as the reference, on the same topic. Most of the video is an interview of the daughter of a dead victim who was on the bus (the daughter had been on the phone with the victim), except for 1:58 to 2:13 which appears to be a quote from the bus driver. The publisher themselves do not have too much reporting in their own voice (on the video), yet this reference was used to cite a paragraph entirely stated in Wikivoice. No attribution was made to the relative or the bus driver, or to the publisher. I can't be totally sure though, due to unfamiliarity with Hebrew. '''] (] / ])''' 13:53, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Here is an obvious act of trolling against another user (]): | |||
====Statement by xDanielx==== | |||
'''''"Keep talking. Maybe this compensates your anger."''''' | |||
{{yo|Arcticocean}} I don't really see how NPOV can be read as requiring edits which support both sides of a controversy. Our content policies don't impose any positive duties; they only tell us what not to do. The text of the policy doesn't support the notion that a ''pattern'' of edits could be in violation, even if no particular edit is in violation. | |||
In principle, such a pattern of edits could violate the , but I don't believe this board has ever enforced it. If it were to be enforced, I think it should be for more serious violations like the double standards that e.g. ] attempted to demonstrate, rather than mere opinion-driven editing which applies to the vast majority of CTOP editors. — ] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>\<sup>]</sup> 03:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Here is again similar offensive remarks and trolling, this time not only against ], but all Armenian users (notice the highly provocative "''do you guys''"): | |||
==== Statement by Hemiauchenia ==== | |||
'''''"Do you guys mass mail each other and decide how to "treat" other users?"''''' | |||
This user has engaged in off-wiki canvassing regarding the IP conflict. Take the following recent tweet from the 12 January | |||
For posterity in case it is deleted it contains the following remarks: {{quote|If you can't handle the facts, just delete them Propaganda on | |||
@Misplaced Pages includes targeting Israel, demonizing it, and erasing inconvenient truths, from falsifying war outcomes to deleting Israeli inventions and attempting to erase the reality of Palestinian suicide bombers.}} | |||
Along with this is a screenshot of the current AfD ]. People are of course allowed to be caustic about Misplaced Pages off-wiki, but calling out a specific AfD with highly charged rhetoric, essentially inciting canvassing seems out of line. ] (]) 02:05, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
: For those concerned that this might be outing, שלומית ליר is very open about their real life identity on their userpage. See (). If you reveal your real identity on Misplaced Pages, your tweets about Misplaced Pages on your Twitter account connected to your real-life identity are fair game to mention. There's also reverse confirmation in this tweet . ] (]) 02:46, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Cdjp1==== | |||
'''''"But please do continue writing. Otherwise it'll get boring."''''' | |||
As we seem to be ok to pull evidence from the statements of the editor in question, they have also commented more recently about () in response to a question of if Misplaced Pages can be "saved". -- ] (]) 23:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
Once again, ] seriously violating ] and ], against Armenian users: | |||
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> | |||
===Result concerning שלומית ליר=== | |||
"''Or, is it better for you that I am not checked so that you keep repeating the same melody over and over? '''I think the latter option suits your interests well and that's why you're inactive.'''''" | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
*Users are allowed to have a POV - it's a rare user indeed who edits a contentious topic without having some strong opinions about it. For conduct to be actionable at AE it needs to be an actual policy violation. The misleading use of images doesn't rise to the level of AE action in my view, and judging whether an addition like is UNDUE is not within AE's purview, as long as it is supported by the source. ] (]) 23:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:The PIA5 remedy hasn't passed yet, and its interpretation is as yet unclear to me: but in my view we are already empowered to deal with biased editing, in the sense of editing that violates NPOV. What I'm not willing to do is sanction on the basis of someone's opinions alone; they have to be shown to have let their opinions get in the way of following our PAGs. ] (]) 07:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::I see some evidence - based on Arcticocean's digging below - that שלומית ליר is using images without sufficient care, but I don't see that rising to the level of a sanction. As to the rest, xDanielx is correct - nowhere do our policies require treating both sides of a conflict equally - indeed our PAGs discourage false balance. Those diffs could be actionable if they individually or collectively violate policy, but I have yet to see evidence of that. ] (]) 03:22, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::The off-wiki canvassing is a problem. It merits a warning at least, I don't know if the formality thereof matters. If there was evidence that שלומית ליר was aware of ] I would consider something more stringent. ] (]) 17:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* While I understand {{u|Vanamonde93}}'s concerns, I think that we are required to assess the totality of the user's contributions. Contentious topic editors are required to uphold NPOV. ] places an obligation to {{xtn|Within contentious topics,… edit carefully and constructively… and… adhere to the ]}}. The linked page provides that {{xtn|Misplaced Pages is written from a neutral point of view… We strive for articles with an impartial tone that document and explain major points of view, giving due weight for their prominence}}. If an editor is ''only'' adding content that significantly favours one or the other side to the conflict, this is incompatible with their contentious topic obligation. That is because an editor making ''only'' one-sided edits will simply not be taking the necessary steps to ensure that the ''whole article'' is written from a neutral point of view. As their number of one-sided edits increases, the likelihood decreases that the editor is ensuring our content is neutral and impartial. Once we reach the point of being sure that they are not attempting to ensure neutrality of content, we can conclude the editor is not meeting their contentious topics obligations and we can issue a sanction. This can only be assessed with hindsight and by looking at the editor's contributions as a whole. ] 20:21, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:: Assessing the topic area contributions of the respondent (שלומית ליר) since they became extended-confirmed {{logid|166341641|at 17:33, 8 December 2024}}, there is cause for concern. I counted 19 edits to the area conflict. Taken together, they significantly skew the articles negatively against the opposing side of the conflict: | |||
::* ]. | |||
::* ]. | |||
::* ] which was perhaps casting doubt on the relevant section, ''Massacre of pensioners'', and ]. | |||
::* ], therefore giving greater weight to the claims, in a context where the claims were already described at considerable length; ]; ]. | |||
::* ], then ], both to the first line of the article. | |||
::* ] and ]. | |||
::* On the talk pages, there has been a ] although I would be prepared to look past that (it was like meeting like). I am skipping a few further and insignificant talk page comments. | |||
::* There are then edits to ]: ]; ]. At ], there is then an expansion, again of the article lead, ] (]). | |||
:: Assessing the edits as a whole, it is difficult not to conclude that the respondent user is failing to meet their contentious topics obligation to edit neutrally in this topic area. As the number of edits is so far limited, if a sanction is imposed, it could justifiably be light-touch. ] 20:34, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::: {{re|xDanielx}} Thanks for commenting. Most of the edits do not have a neutral, encyclopedic POV. There is an effort to influence our articles away from neutrally describing the subject without taking sides, contrary to ]. Even if each edit in isolation is insufficient for sanctioning, taken ''as a whole'' the edits show an inability or unwillingness to edit neutrally. One non-neutral edit shouldn't be sanctioned; twenty is a different story. This is not about the ''percentage'' of biased edits but about the weight or amount of them. Therefore, the assessment wouldn't really change even had the editor made some 'neutral' edits along the way. I'm happy to concede that editors cannot be compelled to balance edits of one bias with edits of another, but I don't think that comes into it. In a nutshell, this is about ]. ] 08:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*The offwiki canvassing is a problem...{{u|שלומית ליר}}, you're fairly inexperienced here. Were you aware ] is not allowed? ] (]) 12:59, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*I take it that per {{u|Barkeep49}}'s brief oversighting of potentially-sensitive content in this report (]), and then restoration of the same (]), concerns of outing have been investigated and the report can proceed on its merits? <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 19:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:That's correct. I got a request, I didn't really feel it was OUTING, but as I indicated in my edit summary OS is a tool of first resort. I consulted with the OS listserv and received some responses quickly agreeing with me and so I unsuppressed and restored the material. ] (]) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
==Luganchanka== | |||
Such behavior is completely unacceptable in Misplaced Pages, and requires some sanctions to ensure it will not happen again.--] (]) 18:06, 22 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning Luganchanka=== | |||
: You're stating above I am '''openly insulting other users, engaging in trolling, and seriously violating teh Misplaced Pages policies''' And where would be anything indicating OPENLY insulting? Please bring some examples, other than those lines above which are NOT indicative of anything. Please also, copy and paste your own remarks about Azerbaijanis, your remarks on Azeri users, etc. That would be interesting to compare my discussion posts with yours. --] (]) 02:56, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Hemiauchenia}} 20:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::So, you admit that you were insulting sneakily. The examples provided above constitute insults and trolling by any reasonable standard.--] (]) 04:42, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::: Tigran, it is written as clear as you can see above that I am asking for some examples which indicate any intention or actual insult against any Armenian, other than '''your''' examples which make no sense. It is understandable that you have no other choice, no other card to use against me and out of desperation, you just try to pull out words from me. Keep trying. --] (]) 05:26, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Luganchanka}}<p>{{ds/log|Luganchanka}}</p> | |||
::::Adil, you see why you are banned now? Even under a new username, you just can't stop disrupting. Here I'll add one more: ''You are so brainwashed by your own ideology, that you don't give yourself a chance to look at the other side of the paper.'' - ] (]) 06:56, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
I think that if there actually is any trolling here, it comes from those users who keep on making baseless accusations of Ehud being a sock of Adil. I would like to specifically draw attention of the admins to the behavior of ], who keeps harassing Ehud, just check his post above mine, where he refers to Ehud as Adil, while he knows perfectly well that those users are unrelated. The comments of Ehud posted here were made in response to such accusations, and he was actually baited to make them and got reported. CU proved that Adil and Ehud are not related: , still harassment of Ehud continues. I would like to ask the admins to put an end to this harassment campaign. ] (]) 08:06, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
Ehud Lesar was baited here, and consequently sunk his teeth in a little. Please stop baiting him; if you believe Ehud Lesar is a banned user, compile your evidence and submit it to be investigated further. Don't make accusations about sock puppetry until it has been proven otherwise you have ]. ] (]) 13:56, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
Agreed. Correct accusations of abusive sockpuppetry are normally fairly easy to prove. I suggest collecting evidence at either ] or ]. Until then, please follow John V's advice. ] <sup> ]</sup> 13:59, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> | |||
# Reversion to version of article where the article says "He is a child sex offender" in the second sentence despite consensus at BLPN discussion that this is problematic because Ritter never actually interacted with a real child. | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
:Sure, here you go . I started adding the evidence, I will be adding more depending on how much you request if this is not enough. I am really amazed that no one sees anything in Adil's game. The reason I don't want to add all the evidences at once is that, from experience, I know it won’t even be read. - ] (]) 02:48, 24 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
BLP CTOP warning given | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
:: Good job. Thank God. I am personally requesting administrators on this page to pay immediate attention to the above "evidence" of user Fedayee. Moreover, I am specifically requesting admins on this page to track everything related to my account and announce for bothered users that I was not in Baku or any other location the provided by Fedayee user names can be associated with. These groundless accussations and attacks on my personality, my ethnic background, and my contribution to Misplaced Pages must end. Thank you (] (]) 08:18, 24 December 2007 (UTC)) | |||
At BLPN, there has been consensus that the version of the article describing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the second sentence of the article is problematic, as he did not actually have sexual contact with a child, only a police officer impersonating one. ]. Luganchanka has been persistently edit warring against this apparent consensus. For which he has been warned by {{Ping|NatGertler}} , which he subequently blanked There has been persistent objection to descrbing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences of the article going back to at least August ], but Luganchanka persistently cites a "consensus" for its inclusion that as far as I can tell does not seem to exist, with Luganchanka aggressively editing to enforce its inclusion. ] (]) 20:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
: Luganchanka's response is disingenuous and misleading. Look at the ] discussion I linked above. Nobody other than Luganchanka thinks that Ritter should be described as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences of the article. The dispute isn't about whether or not the convictions should be mentioned in the lead at all or not, it's specifically about the use of the phrase "child sex offender", and there is no consensus to include that as far as I can tell, despite Luganchanka's vociferous claims to the contrary. ] (]) 20:47, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:: RfC opened ]. ] (]) 16:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
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===Discussion concerning Luganchanka=== | |||
::Add all the convincing evidence you can find and then tell us to come look. What I see now is not a definitive establishment of sock puppetry. So far, you've established that: | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
::*Adil has created fake ethnicities for his socks before. | |||
::*Adil can evade checkuser detection. | |||
::But I want more evidence of behavioral similarity than just making similar reverts. The Geycha and Zangezur stuff does not make sense to me. ] ] 20:11, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::Take another look at his behavior. I think this is a give away: ''You're free to be either obsessed with or '''pretty much obviously impressed by him,''' but please stop dragging me into "being" someone I am not just NOT.'' . Geycha does not make sense? It does when only Adil out of every Azerbaijani users here claimed this and when the claim is contradicted by the official Azerbaijani map covering the disputed territories. It makes this claim exclusively Adil's. It was also only Adil turning articles into subjects covering Armenian fictional destructions. Like this: , . Or this more recently . | |||
====Statement by Luganchanka==== | |||
:::Also, I don't think ''Adil has created fake ethnicities for his socks before'' is all there is to be. Not ponly did he create different ethnicities, but that in three occasions when Ehud left for a considerable lenght of time other socks reappeared and during those occasions sockpuppetry only ceased when Ehud came back. And didn't you find anything suspicious about the fact that Ehud registered hours after Paul August modified the proposed decision of all the members but him and Artaxiad? This coincides with the confirmation that Adil will be banned. | |||
The intro on the ] page had remained largely the same for several months, as you will see on the talkpage it is an intro approved, and reverted to, by multiple senior editors. There has been a recent flurry of activity / edits. While I ], it does look like those edits are attempting to downplay / whitewash Ritter's sexual offence conviction(s). I have not been 'aggressive' at all, rather I have simply referred contentious edits to the talkpage to build consensus, attempting to do my duty as a good Misplaced Pages editor.] (]) 20:40, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::No other person besides Adil lambasted so much about other members being brainwashed by their ideologies like this : ''You are so brainwashed by your own ideology, that you don't give yourself a chance to look at the other side of the paper.'' --<big>''' ] '''</font></big><sup><small>]</sup></small> 23:07, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
Please see the ], where there has been a clear consensus reached, on more than one occasion, and by senior wikipedia editors, that Ritter's sexual offence conviction should be included in the lead to the article. My edits have simply been aimed at ensuring this consensus reached is maintained in the article.] (]) 20:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::: Dear Admins, I will be more than happy to help you with any questions/queries you might have on this case. I have not been editing in Misplaced Pages for several months due to my busy schedule and as soon as I appeared back, obviously my edits (not even edits but my appearance on talk pages) started irritating the above and other involved Armenian users. I see that all the links they have been posting on this and other admin pages are only targeting to relate me to Adil Bagirov just because he is a banned user: for one simple reason - to get me banned. These same users do not have anything else to use against me (violation of any Misplaced Pages rules). | |||
:::: All the claims with my "appearance" on the dates related to one or another banning, warning, edits, socks of any other banned or paroled users are groundless for one simple reason: This is called Misplaced Pages. Any user comes in at any time he's free and available to help expand Misplaced Pages. I am sure the same can be applied to Armenian users whose timing of appearance, edits, reverts coincide. Go figure now if they are socks or not. Maybe they should provide their timing on Misplaced Pages as well. Secondly, the issue of Geycha and Zangezur is NOT exclusive to Adil Bagirov. It is the history of Caucasus available in many libraries in many countries. If a previous user (Adil Bagirov in our case) has provided this specific information on Misplaced Pages first, that doesn't make any of the next Misplaced Pages users ''with the same information'' '''Adil Bagirovs''' or anyone related to him. We all read and write and get sources from somewhere. Let's then connect all Armenian users to the first Armenian who claimed Nagorno-Karabakh to be Armenian on Misplaced Pages, and let's declare the former to be fake users, shall we? Third, it's your own business of being impressed by Adil Bagirov and his trips to other countries, but I have been a Misplaced Pages user from one computer at one location. Admins can easily check that. | |||
:::: Once again, I am ready to provide the administrators with the requested information so that I am cleared from baseless accussations. (] (]) 05:02, 26 December 2007 (UTC)) | |||
: Thank you to @] and @] for your feedback. If you see the ], discussions - {{tq|14 August - Vandalism by removing all reference entirely to Ritter being a "Convicted Sex Offender"}} and {{tq|First sentence}}. The latter discussion ended on 26th September, and resulted in the intro we had until a flurry of edits the other day, trying to move information on Ritter's sexual offence conviction, downplay it, whitewash it etc. My edits were aimed at restoring the edit reached by consensus, which had been in place for several months until the recent raft of edits with the clear aim of moving / downplaying Ritter's sexual offence conviction.] (]) 06:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
==Mediation by Moreschi on Armenia-Azerbaijan related articles== | |||
In thread below, ] kindly proposed to mediate and arbitrate in Armenia-Azerbaijan related articles. I think it's better if other contributors present their thoughts here in support or opposition of the proposal. Thanks. ] (]) 00:25, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:: Thank you for this ], I really do appreciate your feedback and advice here!!] (]) 16:30, 16 January 2025 (UTC) <small>(moved from ] — ] <sub>]</sub> 17:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC))</small> | |||
Atabek's request, and Moreschi's offer (which several users have rejected, considering the existing mediation by Golbez) needs to be considered in its context. The relevant accusations and responses appear on the ANI page (http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Golbez_and_VartanM), and should be read by those considering Atabek's request. Basically, Golbez has been mediating on the Nagorno-Karabakh article. Following extremely disruptive edits and posts by Atabek, Golbez made it known that Atabek's inputs are not welcome, as they are provocative. As I and other users (such as Steelemate) have stated, fulfilling Atabek's request will be tantamount to rewarding a disruptive editor who tries to push away a mediator with whom he disagrees. Therefore, and given Golbez' current mediation, I and other users have respectfully rejected Moreschi's offer. We may welcome him in the future.--] (]) 02:11, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:: As per ]'s comments: | |||
::Tigran, what makes you think that you and Steelmate are not disruptive while I am? Just the fact that Golbez and you are on one side of content dispute and I, along with few other contributors, am on the other does not suffice to call me disruptive. So assume good faith. Also, I believe this thread only asked for points explaining the rejection of Moreschi's kind offer (it's not an easy task to mediate and arbitrate this conflict) endorsed by at least 2 administrators at ]. Thanks. ] (]) 09:17, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
{{tq|"Unfazed by "Emily's" age, Ritter asked "Emily," "you want to see it finish?" Ritter then turned on the webcam and ejaculated in front of the camera for "Emily." Detective Venneman then notified Ritter of his undercover status and the undercover operation and directed Ritter to call the police station."}} | |||
: I agree that Golbez should step down as a mediator on NK and other Armenia - Azerbaijan related articles. So far not a single Azerbaijani contributor agreed to his mediation. I agree that Moreschi or any other third party contributor takes up the role of mediator. ] (]) 08:40, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
https://casetext.com/case/ritter-v-tuttle | |||
:I am dissatisfied with Golbez's mediation. He frequently resorts to spinosity and can get emotional - something mediators should avoid at all costs. I do not have anything against Moreschi taking over as a mediator. ] (]) 09:44, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
] (]) 18:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Is Parishan really dissatisfied of Golbez mediation? I wonder when was the last time he was engaged in any mediation to be dissatisfied? His participation on NK was basically reverting to Grandmasters position and sometimes providing a line or two, when he was criticized that he does not comment. Only after Atabek was singled out did he come to contribute there, and his arguments show that he doesn't even understand what the problem was really about. | |||
====Statement by NatGertler==== | |||
::This mentality of taking sides, Azerbaijani’s on one side and Armenians on the other isn’t helping anyone. If someone has the right to criticize Golbez's mediation, that person has to actually be engaged in the mediation process, those who were there when Francis and Golbez settled the issue before Atabek came and screwed it up. Coming here and claiming that his dissatisfied on a mediation that he wasn't even involved with besides a few comments which were already repeated by another contributor, doesn’t in any way weight in when commenting about Golbez's participation. | |||
Editor's edits today focused on trying to main a negative descriptor of what subject believed, despite it not being in the three sources that were listed (nor in the old version they ultimately reverted to.) Efforts were first trying to simply restate the claim, then trying to source it to an opinion piece (problem) from the Washington Examiner (also a bit of a problem, per ]), then trying to state as a fact what had merely been stated in a non-prime article as an accusation. BLP concern was pointed out repeatedly via edit summary and on Talk page. Removal of unsourced contentious BLP claims and even false claims is not "whitewashing" despite how editor wishes to depict it, it is in accord with our practices. -- ] (]) 21:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
::The point has been made, so why does Parishan continues pulling Golbez's foot? I think administrators should first understand the rational of Atabek's illogical, irrational requests. It won't be the first nether the last time contributors like Atabek pushed members to the extreme. ] (]) 01:49, 22 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
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===Result concerning Luganchanka=== | |||
:::I found Golbez's answer following my comment inadequate and inappropriate, and I did point it out to him . And my response did correspond to the question posed by him. I think that experience was memorable enough to allow me to draw conclusions from this mediation. In any event, I was actually trying to make a fruitful contribution, rather than attributing "bazaar mentality" to ethnicities, whose representatives happen to disagree with me. ] (]) 11:03, 22 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
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:@]: whether you're correct or not, you were edit warring. I believe an indef block from the article and/or a temporary site block would be an appropriate sanction here. ] (]/]) 20:54, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::I've blocked the user for 48h for violating 3RR based on the report at ].--] (]) 23:56, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* @], edit-warring ''to remove'' negative content at a BLP is an exemption to 3RR. I see that NatGertler mentioned this in their edit summaries and at talk. As voorts points out, it doesn't matter whether you're right when you're reverting an edit that is being claimed as an exemption, even if you believe ]whiyou are "ensuring this consensus reached is maintained in the article". The solution is to go to talk, discuss, and get consensus. If you'd like to respond, ping me to your response at your talk and I'll post it here. ] (]) 16:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:@], if you really believe those two sections -- senior editors, indeed, ] was between someone with 13 edits and somcoen who wasn't ECR, for heaven's sake -- somehow prove consensus was strong, and you think that means you can ignore all the later ones -- at one of which you didn't even respond to a ping, where people were objecting -- then this is maybe looking like a ] issue. | |||
*:But even if you ''had'' been somehow editing to support a consensus you believed was settled, you cannot edit-war contentious material into a BLP when others are objecting to it. The solution, always, is to go to talk, discuss, and reconfirm consensus. There is zero urgency to have this information in the article. Including something negative in a BLP is not something you should ''ever'' edit war over. ] (]) 18:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*Luganchanka's reading of the state of consensus on the talk page as supporting their edits is so far off base that it borders on being a CIR issue if it's sincere. Indef block from ] seems appropriate. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 22:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:I see RTH's point about the "First sentence" section in isolation. I'd note that the link to ] isn't really appropriate here, as bringing the discussion to BLP/N was an appropriate action (if it was then brought to NPOVN, NORN, etc., ''that'' would be forumshopping). I'd like to see some actual contrition around the edit warring and frivolous accusations of {{tq|whitewash}} before writing this off as time-served. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 15:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::That's fair; I'll strike the link. My point in including it was that, when conversations fragment, we sometimes get these sorts of chaotic incidents. — ] <sub>]</sub> 15:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::Understood, I think that meaning was clear for us here in the admin section, but I could easily see a new editor misinterpreting it unintentionally. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 15:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::::I am not at all comforted by the fact that Luganchanka has proceeded to make ]. The cited BBC source does not state {{tq| masturbated and ejaculated on camera}}, saying only {{tq|graphic sex act}}. As written, this is essentially another BLP violation, building a case that a ban from this topic is needed. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::Having reviewed the other sources, reliable sources do confirm the masturbation claim (, ) but not ejaculation, which appears to be supported only by ''New York Post'', a generally unreliable source. {{u|Luganchanka}}, in light of this clarification, can you please address your decision to include the claims as you initially wrote them? <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 17:02, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::::::The detail is in the record of ''Ritter v. Tuttle'' (case No. 3:15cv1235 (M.D. Pa. Dec. 14, 2018)), so it isn't completely made up. But I would also like to hear from the user on this point as to whether there was secondary sourcing here. — ] <sub>]</sub> 17:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::::Seeing ] here and ], ] at ], I see no comprehension of the use of primary vs. secondary sources, nor any reflection of their past errors in engaging with this topic. I believe that a block from the page is needed to prevent further BLP violations as they have shown no understanding of the relevant policies even after being given several warnings, reminders and opportunities to revise their position. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 18:47, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::::{{yo|Luganchanka}} | |||
*:::::::] calls upon users to {{tq|{{strong|{{em|not}}}} use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person}}. There are some narrow exceptions (when {{tq|primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it {{em|may}} be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source}}), but adding material to the article not found in reliable secondary sources is... suboptimal ''at best'' under our ]. | |||
*:::::::— ] <sub>]</sub> 02:27, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*{{yo|Luganchanka}} Would you please provide a direct link to the talk page section you are referring to when you say {{tq|there has been a clear consensus reached, on more than one occasion, and by senior wikipedia editors}} regarding the lead? — ] <sub>]</sub> 01:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:{{yo|Luganchanka|Hemiauchenia}} | |||
*:It does seem that the discussion at ] does indicate some support for that language i.e. ({{tq|convicted child sex offender}}) in the lead, with some general lean against putting it in the first sentence. So, while {{tq|There has been persistent objection to descrbing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences}} is true if it means the literal first sentence, I do see a rough consensus to include the material in the lead section in some way in that discussion. | |||
*:That being said, the BLPN discussion had a bit of different tone and tenor from the discussion on the talk page. There was on the article's talk page, but Luganchanka, despite having been pretty vocal about this subject in the past, hadn't participated in that BLPN discussion. They instead grounded their edits in the argument that the article's talk page had consensus for the current content, and nothing on the article's talk page had changed that consensus. And that much was true. In any case, we've got <s>]</s>two different forums with two different answers here, which appears to be what's leading to the whole kerfluffle. | |||
*:Then the analysis comes to whether or not the label is a straightforward BLP violation, requiring us to read the sourcing in the article. , which is cited in the ''body'' of the article (but not the lead), does state that Ritter {{tq|was convicted unlawful contact with minors and other charges}} in the state of PA (the PA statute is ; "unlawful contact with minors" is the verbatim name of the crime). When dealing with a sting operation, PA treats it as {{tq|an offense of the same grade and degree}} as if the criminal had actually contacted a child (unless it's a lesser crime than a third-degree felony, in which case it becomes a third-degree felony). This is an extremely common practice in the United States (there are lots of philosophical questions regarding ''mens rea'' and ''actus reus'' here, but that's not really relevant here). In any case, labeling this to be a child sex offense (or, alternatively, to simply use the name of the crime in the article) does not appear to be straightforward malice/POV-pushing/libel, and a reasonably informed individual might shorten it in this way. Whether or not that is ''wise'' or ''optimal'' to shorten it is the proper subject for content discussion. | |||
*:Aside from the edit warring (which was not acceptable, and was aptly handled by a block), this looks like a content dispute. A heated one involving a living person, sure, but a content dispute nonetheless. I see good-faith—albeit passionate—disagreement. If the editors were to come together and engage in one forum (such as the article's talk page, where this has been discussed a bunch), rather than splitting the discussion over multiple pages, I feel like we might have our best shot at attaining a consensus going forward. | |||
*:In short, it looks like the conversation fragmented, and consensus-building broke down. Edit warring ensued, which was bad, but we've already blocked for that in order to dissuade it going forward. A ] on the article's talk page for what the lead should look like is probably the best way to go forward here. | |||
*:— ] <sub>]</sub> 15:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
==BabbleOnto== | |||
:I'm quite happy with Golbez's mediation. He has solved long running issues and is very well familiar with the conflict and the history of the situation, his neutrality has only been challenged by pov pushers. Switching to another mediator will not be constructive.--<big>''' ] '''</font></big><sup><small>]</sup></small> 10:47, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
::That's not what I proposed. I'm also quite happy with Golbez's mediation. I'm more worried about everywhere else - the locus of dispute is not restricted to just this one article. ] <sup> ]</sup> 10:56, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
===Request concerning BabbleOnto=== | |||
I would also be happy with word "mediation" applied in Golbez case, if someone could explain what mediation actually means, other than what is defined in the ]: "''Mediation, a form of alternative dispute resolution (ADR), '''aims to assist two (or more) disputants''' in reaching an agreement.''". It's clear from his edits and talk page comments, and the whole "raving maniacs" thing, that, with all due respect, he is more a disputant (within definition given above) than a mediator. Can we bring this to some formal board where a decision can be taken on who should actually mediate the articles? Because as of now, a group of users is refusing to contribute to the articles due to Golbez's activity, and when independent arbitrator like Moreschi offers his services, another group rejects for not quite detailed reasons but that . ] (]) 11:22, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|ජපස}} 17:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|BabbleOnto}}<p>{{ds/log|BabbleOnto}}</p> | |||
:Atabek, my comment on Golbeze's page was simply the product of you calling him an pro-Armenian, interested only listening to the Armenians. Same applies to the bazaar comment. I was under the impression that if I really started pushing POV just the way you claim that I do. And if it were anywhere near the level of your own pushed POV maybe then, the mediators would be able to reach a consensus and not be called pro-Armenian. I quickly changed my mind about that theory, for the simple reason that the last thing this project needs is another destructive user. And by destructive, I mean someone who is able to halt any productive discussion by driving the mediator to the point of snapping and then reporting him to ANI . ] (]) 22:31, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
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::And I never rejected Moreschi's offer. The more neutral eyes we have on AA articles the better. Maybe then the compassions of NK to the Nazis will end. Also I didn't see you complaining about Golbez when he protected the Shushi article on a "right version". That wasn't really a pro-Armenian was it? ] (]) 01:27, 22 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
When you behave like a raving maniac, a moderator needs to point that out. He is doing you a favor, so you will step away and not sabotage the efforts of your fellow editors. Sometimes I get short breath just by reading your incessant tirades against your opponents. It's good if someone tells you to calm down and stop screaming.--] (]) 19:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
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; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
: I am in favor of having any impartial mediator. So far, Golbez has not proven to be one. All of the above clearly indicate quite the opposite. I am for Moreschi's help. --] (]) 01:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
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# Sealioning | |||
# Refusal to ] | |||
# Personalizing an argument. | |||
# Railroading the discussion. | |||
This is all after I warned them about ] sanctions, and . Very nearly a ] on the subject. I see no reason to continue tolerating this kind of obstinate ]. Additional diffs available on request from admins, but looking at the user history should suffice to indicate the problem is obvious, I hope. | |||
::Banned members have no say in this. You are banned so you should learn to face it. - ] (]) 03:09, 22 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any : | |||
::: Keep talking. Maybe this compensates your anger. --] (]) 06:44, 22 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
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Regardless of what we say or think, there should be a change or rotation in mediation. One person cannot be mediator for his or her lifetime. If there is a call for change, why not to face it? I think we should follow this simple logic in this given case too. --] (]) 21:48, 22 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
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; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
:As far as I am concerned, you’ve been OK so far, even thought I disagree with you very strongly on many issues. You have not come to discuss with Golbez, you’ve left Vartan with Atabek, which resulted into this. At least in your case you don’t say anything while Grandmaster pushes any misbehavior of Atabek under the carpet and then switches roles. | |||
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This is a ] with respect to the topic and their ] surrounding it has been subject to at least one ] thread that remains active: ]. The hope was that they would ] and move on from this, but it seems they either will not or cannot. ] (]) 17:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
:Didn’t it cross your mind that when Golbez said that he wanted the Azerbaijani position explained by another person other than Atabek, it could have been you? I think the call for change should be justified, what was the problem really?... it was the removal by Atabek of a word and the emblem. Is it really worth it to have another person go through thousands of texts and countless pages of discussion for two problems, one of which was a non-issue at least by the two sides before Atabek created this artificial problem? | |||
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===Discussion concerning BabbleOnto=== | |||
:For an artificial problem created and maintained by Atabek, we have not only one article to work on, but three now; the split and the FORK created by Grandmaster. Where does this lead us to? Logically, it should be Atabek that should be prevented from participating in those articles and you to come there and present your position and I am certain that the issue could be resolved without Atabek’s implication. Just try it, and then say if Golbez is what he was pictured here to be. - ] (]) 23:37, 22 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by BabbleOnto==== | |||
:: Golbez's mediation did not work. It is time to try someone else. I will file a request for mediation soon. ] (]) 08:20, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
I would first like to begin by point out the person filing this complaint . They have frequently left "warnings" which read more like threats on and for people who disagree with them. Nor would I be the . | |||
To be honest I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm being charged with doing. | |||
==VartanM== | |||
] is a party to ArbCom | |||
He has recently pushed the limit, by attacking a whole ethnicity again: : | |||
:*"''Atabek its clear to me that Azeris have a bazar mentality in negotiations. As in you tart with your own ridiculously high price and wait for the Armenian to come up with its own ridiculously low price, go back and forth until a medium is reached then call it a deal. What has happened so far is that Azeris came up with the high price, but we the naive Armenians ask for the medium price right from the start, Azeris get confused and think that the medium is the low price and push for more.''" | |||
I think in general the user is alleging I've been uncivil, unhelpful, and, in their words, obstinate and tendentious. I know when someone disagrees with you it may feel like they're getting in your way and acting in bad-faith, but that's not always true. I've never tried to be disruptive or uncivil. I've , I've that were clarified to be wrong, I've , at times and work together. And when those editors , I didn't provoke any further. | |||
I am not sure how long and how many times will this Arbitration Committee condone VartanM's attacks and the attack by TigranTheGreat like reported below on other contributors along ethnic lines and allow generalizations such as above. These contributors have been warned already at several instances. | |||
I now address the specific edits in the complaint: | |||
No one likes being insulted or attacked for free contributions to 💕 at own time and leisure. I hope Arbitration Committee will take this into consideration. Thanks. ] (]) 18:51, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:Chaps, attacking an ethnicity is only indirectly a violation of Misplaced Pages policy, but it's annoying and not something we want to see too much more of (Misplaced Pages ain't a soapbox either). | |||
::And, yes, Vartan, please don't do that. Nobody should. It's not much of a policy violation but it really does ''not'' help with the atmosphere around here, which is quite toxic enough as it is. There'd be no point browbeating an apology out of you, but please restrain from making such similar statements in the future. You're a classier sort of gentleman than that. ] <sup> ]</sup> 19:23, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:Arbitration enforcement is getting stupidly clogged up with your battles. At the moment it ain't all really working, I think you'll both agree. Perhaps we need a new approach. Here's an idea. I'll be full-time mediator and admin-enforcer to the Armenia-Azeri fights for a fortnight. If you accept, fine. If so, however, we're going to have work out a system whereby I get told where the latest fights are breaking out, because I haven't got every single Armenia-Azeri article listed. ] <sup> ]</sup> 19:04, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
1. I don't see how this is sea-lioning. The user misquoted the article. I pointed out the misquotation, then addressed a accusation against me that I was second-guessing the sources (A claim which was never substantiated). I then said any source would have to support that actual claim which was in the article. I don't know what this violates. | |||
Moreschi, I think that would be great if you could dedicate some time to Azeri-Armenian articles. I will be more than glad to cooperate in your efforts. Keep me informed, and I can provide you with a list of all disputed articles. | |||
2. I don't see how this is refusing to get the message (IDHT). The other party is making direct claims alleging I said something. I did not say it. I replied with what I actually said. What part of that interaction is saying "I didn't hear that?" | |||
But for this particular case, I also want to request that VartanM be demanded an apology for insulting an entire ethnicity. It's really inappropriate and every time he makes a violation and is given a green light, just because it's reported by opposite side, he continues similar attacks next time. ] (]) 19:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
3. Admittedly probably the strongest of the four allegations. I'm not pretending I was perfect in all of my comments. I should have kept my criticism strictly to their argument. I ask you to read it in context and keep in mind you're viewing a hand-picked assortment of my worst edits, and this is the worst they could find. Also consider that conversation accused me of , perhaps you can see I lose my cool sometimes too. | |||
::I am sorry to report this also, but VartanM engaged in another attack along ethnic and personal lines against ]. Perhaps, he needs to be explained to calm down. Thanks. ] (]) 19:31, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
4. I'm not even really sure what "railroading the discussion" means. Thus, to keep this section short and to save words, I don't know what I'm being accused of doing wrong here. | |||
Perhaps you need to calm down. Just today you have already alienated one admin (Golbez) with your hyperventilating style of argumentation. Going around and accusing all your opponents in "attacking along national lines" is disruptive and annoying. Vartan made a simple point--User Ehud's behavior strongly suggests that he is a sock of Adil, and as such, he is impersonating someone having a Jewish name. Unless Ehud wants to bring up the issue himself and subject himself to checkuser, you need to move on and stop your disruptive behavior. --] (]) 02:11, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
All of this has stemmed out of arguments over two sources. I have tried to find compromise, I have tried to negotiate, I have tried to build consensus. I've been going through the proper channels, I've been participating in the RfC, I've been discussing it on the ANI, I source every claim I make, for a month now I've been trying to constructively explain my side and defend my argument against challenges. It's incredibly frustrating to now be facing an Arbitration Enforcement on grounds that '''I'm''' not working with others. ] (]) 23:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Tigran, if VartanM is not "attacking along national lines", why is ]'s ethnic background is even a subject of discussion in Misplaced Pages? Does any Misplaced Pages rule proclaim that the user must state his ethnicity or be claimed as a sock otherwise? There is a simple method for proving a contributor is a sock of another - filing a checkuser. Is it really so much harder than assuming so much bad faith? ] (]) 12:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
*:Edited. ] (]) 23:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by ProcrastinatingReader==== | |||
*The diffs of VartanM cited by Atabek are not actionable. ] 02:15, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
I've interacted with BabbleOnto in several threads. There's a few problems, but ultimately, I think they have a certain opinion on what the article should say, and will debate endlessly to get the article changed to their position. I mean, sure, reasonable people disagree on how to interpret sources and apply policy, but I don't think BabbleOnto is actually interested in faithful application of policies to write high quality articles based on good sources. | |||
That's not terribly problematic by itself, but most discussions with BabbleOnto are exhausting. Rather than actually trying to understand someone's argument in good faith, I think BabbleOnto replies to editors by picking out parts of an argument, interpreting it in the most disfavourable way possible, and making a superficially reasonable response ''ad nauseam''. They reply endlessly in this manner. As well as misrepresentation of opponents' arguments, on multiple occassions BabbleOnto has either misrepresented sources or hasn't read their own sources. I can't think of a single thread where BabbleOnto didn't have the last word, or a single thread where it seemed like BabbleOnto was actually trying to understand the arguments of other editors in a charitable way. As such, I think it's very difficult to work collaborately with BabbleOnto on the lab leak theory and related articles. ] (]) 21:07, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:: Here's more, a personal attack on Atabek, accusations of trolling, etc. Quote: ''Atabek is clearly trolling and baiting you to say things that you wouldn't normally say. My advise is to ignore him, but if it continues you can report him to the administrators at ]''. Also, constant accusations of ] being a sock of banned user Adil is another personal attack. VartanM knows very well that ] proved that Ehud and Adil are not related, but keeps attacking Ehud on any occasion. How many warnings can one person be given? I think it is time Vartan stops attacking other users, whom he happened to disagree with. ] (]) 08:52, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Newimpartial==== | |||
:Atabek, you're also a part of ArbCom and how many times you attacked Armenian side with the words like "separatists", "ethnic cleansings" etc (last time 2 days ago at ])? and your last "editions" at ]: after the ] pogroms when the whole Armenian population fled the city its even very hard for you to see the word Armenian there in the article- when a prominent person from Baku was really an Armenian and in some cases was pressed to leave Baku like Armenian-Jewish Kasparov and his family? What about tolerance? Pls try to be more tolerant before asking about other users! ] (]) 13:00, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
As the editor to whom BabbleOnto was responding in the diffs of the filing, I feel compelled to comment now that they have defended (to varying degrees) their first three diffs. I will reply as briefly as I know how to their defense of the diffs, . | |||
1. BabbleOnto is now doubling down on the claim that I {{tq|misquoted the article}}. I didn't "misquote" the article - I didn't quote the article, and I explained what my comment meant in the rest of the (now collapsed) thread that ends . Also, I provided a clear explanation of why I thought they were second-guessing sources later in the thread, but BabbleOnto never responded to that explanation. They are now responding to the accusation of ] with pure ]. | |||
Andranikpasha, since when the words "separatist" and "ethnic cleansing", with listed facts and references in historical debate, are considered an attack? And Kasparov is a prominent person, not because he is from Baku and not because he is Armenian-Jewish, but because he became a chess grandmaster. And by the way, before ] pogroms, Kasparov received education in Baku, elevated and paid for all his chess tournaments up to championship by no one other than the leader of Azerbaijan ]. And by the way, when Armenians were leaving on ships or trains prior to ], Kasparov was chartering a comfortable plain for his family to leave to Moscow, safely, escorted from Baku airport. And by the way, if you look at my edits at ], I removed most Azerbaijani ethnic classification from prominent people listings as well. The article is about the city of Baku and prominent people from the city, not about their ethnic backgrounds. So ]. Thanks. ] (]) 13:16, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
2. On this they say, now, that {{tq|The other party is making direct claims alleging I said something. I did not say it.}} This is repeating a misreading they made in the original thread, where they mistook a statement I made about another editor's comment as if it were about theirs. In this "defense", I see no attempt to read thoughtfully what other editors say in reply to them and revise their understanding accordingly; all I see is zero-sum mentality and ]. | |||
::Thatcher131, may I remind you about few comments for which I was blocked before, : , . Perhaps, you could look at both links and since you don't find anything actionable in VartanM's ''"Azeris have a bazar mentality in negotiations"'' and ''"Atabek is clearly trolling and baiting you to say things that you wouldn't normally say"'', explain me what was "actionable" in what I said then? ] (]) 11:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
3. BabbleOnto is now justifying an edit where they said to me, {{tq|You have a habit of inserting small lies into everything you say}} and {{tq|You're not adding anything constructive. You're just refusing to explain anything and saying conclusory statements, or lying about what you said}} - all this based on a misreading of what I had actually written - because I was going to refer to {{tq|a basic failure in reading comprehension}} '''''two hours later'''''. This seems like a time travel paradox. | |||
:::Different admins have different standards. It is obvious in context that VartanM meant ], not ], and it was a comment on negotiation tactics. I could adopt the view that every talk page comment that said "the people all do this" is a personal attack and ban the whole damn lot of you. Certainly a more aggressive enforcement approach would fall on you as well. ] 14:35, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
4. They don't bother defending themselves on this one, but just to point out the actual issue with the diff, they doubled down on their accusations that I {{tq|said a material lie}}, and that I {{tq|lied when said that quoted the article out of context. Pointing out being caught lying}} and then proceeded to STRAWMAN the rest of my comment to which they were replying. If they had read my prior comment with a reasonable level of attention, they would have understood that there were no "lies", just a misunderstanding or two in each direction. But ] again; even in responding to this filing BabbleOnto is still insisting I did things that I quite obviously didn't do. | |||
:::: The thing is that I don't remember a single instance of any Azerbaijani user making generalizing comments about the Armenian people. I don't remember any Azerbaijani user ever saying "you Armenians are this and that". Previous report was dealing with comments of TigranTheGreat about the modern Azerbaijani people, to whom he referred as "so called Azerbaijanis" "with fictional ethnic identity", etc. It was not a matter of historical dispute, into which some users managed to change the discussion. If such remarks about the whole people are acceptable here, then everyone should feel free to make similar comments without the risk of being sanctioned. It is not even a matter of enforcing the arbcom decisions, it is more about the general atmosphere in talk pages, which keeps on deteriorating. I believe some sort of a general warning should be given to make users refrain from such inflammatory statements. ] (]) 16:45, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
It is exhausting to deal with this kind of quasi-CPUSH (not quite civil, but certainly push) behaviour. The Talk page in question has seen a recent influx of single-purpose or nearly single-purpose POV accounts, and in terms of editor energy, this one certainly seems not to be a net positive for Misplaced Pages as a project. Perhaps if they edited away from Covid and US politics, their track record might improve. ] (]) 03:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::: I agree with Grandmaster. Such statements on a certain ethnicity indicate ethnic harted. I think VartanM should apologize for his unfair remarks about Azerbaijanis. Ethnic hatred should not be tolerated by admins in Misplaced Pages. Furthermore, Tigran should file a checkuser on my account along with people who think alike, if that makes him this worried that I am Adil Bagirov. So, Tigran and others, just stop talking and use your time to file a checkuser instead. Or, is it better for you that I am not checked so that you keep repeating the same melody over and over? I think the latter option suits your interests well and that's why you're inactive. --] (]) 01:46, 22 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Objective3000==== | |||
::::::It has been already demonstrated that your persona is a fake one. We will all treat you as Adil because you are Adil. It was already pointed out that Lesar is Sephardic not Ashkenazi. It is unlikely that any Jew will ever support the claim that a few deaths amount to genocide and even to reply to an objection to the ridiculous comparison between Auschwitz and Khojaly by supporting the one who made such a ridiculous, plain and pathetic comparison. | |||
Just a quick aside to Valereee's aside: {{TQ|Contentious topics are a terrible place to learn....}} ] currently has posts from 19 editors lacking the edits for extended confirmed. ] (]) 20:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:@], this is also a problem at other CTOPs, and is likely to become more problematic. I assume due to off-Wiki forums. ECR might just produce more users gaming EC. I thought it would be useful to put your aside into the CTOP template at the top of CTOP TPs. But that assumes folks read it. Walt Kelly said something along the lines of: “If only I could write, I’d write a letter to the mayor, if only he could read." This discussion is likely better off elsewhere. ] (]) 21:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by JoelleJay==== | |||
::::::No Jew will have any interest at calling Sevan (in the republic of Armenia) by its "Azerbaijani" name, or it being Azerbaijani land... all of which are claims exclusively made by Adil Baguirov. | |||
At the very least, can we get more admin involvement on the lab leak page so trolling like ] doesn't disrupt things even more? ] (]) 07:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by IntrepidContributor==== | |||
::::::We know now that Azizbekov was not a sock of a banned member... he has been banned by the ridiculous accusations brought forward by Grandmaster. But of course, here we have an obvious case of sock puppetry and administrators unsurprisingly remain silent. All the editors implicated (Armenian as much Azeri) have the knowledge to invade checkusers, particularly Adil, and on various occasions it was obvious it was him behind the sock puppetry, even without checkuser confirmation. It is no secret that there is an Atabek and Adil connection, so there should not be any surprise as to why Ehud always appears to give a hand to Atabek, just like when Adil was raining in with sockpuppets to come to Atabek’s defense. - ] (]) 03:29, 22 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
I have been observing BabbleOnto and while there are valid concerns about bludgeoning, I think the proposed sanctions are too much. His engagement in the Covid lab leak topic is driven by commitment to WP:NPOV, which our articles fail to adhere to, and he made the mistake of arguing with editors who were never going to listen (resulting in what looks like sealioning on his part). He's not only editor to raise issues in the topic and engage in good faith discussion, only to find themselves pulled to AN or AE disputes after staying out of the seasoning traps and refusing to capitulate to threats. In a parallel AN case concerning another editor in same topic, I suggest there may be possible off-wiki coordination , but it can also be on-wiki (). | |||
:::::Grandmaster, you sound like you have very short memory. It wasn’t until recently that there were such comments and this happening because there are no consequences for what Atabek has been saying and doing for a very long time. And I witness that again you use the “Armenian and Azerbaijani” editors’ card. I don’t get it, why don’t you stick to reporting and start making less offending comments? You compared Armenia with Saddam’s Iraq, which, unlike the claim of a weak Azerbaijani national identity, is not substantiated. Tell me, how was your comparison any less offending when it was those same analogies, which have grown to become comparisons with the NAZIs, which have finally pushed Tigran into making those comments. If you don’t want others to make comments which you find offending, maybe you should also listen to other editors when they find your comments offending. I have not seen you doing anything when Atabek added his stuff in his user page offending Armenian users, he knew they were offending and only removed them when he wanted to comment in the request for arbitration page because he was probably scared to have his recent contributions analysed. - ] (]) 03:41, 22 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
One need only cross-reference names from , checking those that voted for labeling COVID-19 lab leak as conspiracy, with the names of complainants here. Contrast all these old timers with the steady stream of tens if not hundreds of regular editors complaining that our article fails NPOV, and see that their gentle approach doesn't work . Our chief complainant is already preparing his next case , and this might not be his first. | |||
:::::: ''It has been already demonstrated that your persona is a fake one. We will all treat you as Adil because you are Adil'' Demonstrated? By what? By repetitive sounds of nonsense? And who are you to treat me as Adil or any other user? Who is '''we'''? Do you guys mass mail each other and decide how to "treat" other users? | |||
:::::: Really impressed about your knowledge on Jewish roots and even their views. Really astounding to see how you speak so well on behalf of Jews. It's up to the Admins to decide who's a sock and who's not. I think they are smart enough to determine who's who. But please do continue writing. Otherwise it'll get boring. --] (]) 06:54, 22 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::::: Fedayee, before accusing me of having a short memory you may wish to recall that “Armenian and Azerbaijani” editors’ card has already been played by Vartan (remember his "bazaar mentality" speech?). And I never compared Armenia with anyone, the discussion was about whether or not we can present as official an emblem of the city, introduced by occupational forces, and I reminded of a similar situation in another region of the world. And please stop attacking Ehud, it has never been demonstrated that his persona is fake, on the contrary, it has officially been proven that he has nothing to do with Adil. See this ] once again. I recommend Ehud to take this to ] next time anyone repeats this baseless sockpuppetry accusation, it is harassment and should be dealt with as such. ] (]) 07:49, 22 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
I suggest that administrators consider a 1 to 2 month topic ban for BabbleOnto to provide opportunity for him to correct his approach, while staying alert to the tactics of POV editors trying to draw them into content debates to influence outcomes. | |||
::::::::You know checkusers will not show anything and you know nothing has been demonstrated of that sort. Ehud is Adil, we already confirmed this, so please for your own sake stop claiming it was demonstrated, I will start believing that you know it and defend him. | |||
] (]) 14:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::It isn’t difficult at all to confirm it, here are the same myths which were said by Adil who calls Sevan, Geycha (and the theory about it being Azerbaijani land)… here is the near identical claim again by Adil.. | |||
===Result concerning BabbleOnto=== | |||
::::::::When you search in the talkpages, all the hits excluding one, point either to Adil and Ehud, for Geycha for the way Adil calls it by its “Azerbaijani” name. If you read Adil’s claim, you will see those claims put forward by Adil are identical to the ones put forward by Ehud. Neither you, nor even Atabek have ever made those claims about Sevan, they were exclusively Adil’s thing. | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
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*{{u|BabbleOnto}}, please edit your statement down further to fit within the restriction. This also serves as an opportunity to rephrase your defense, which currently is not convincing at first glance. ProcrastinatingReader's description of the situation seems quite apt, particularly {{tq|BabbleOnto replies to editors by picking out parts of an argument, interpreting it in the most disfavourable way possible}}, which is currently a pretty fitting description of your response to them here, given that you zeroed in on the "superficially reasonable" part and ignored the much more serious parts of the testimony. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:Ok, having read through nearly every edit that BabbleOnto has made, I agree with the complainants that not only does BabbleOnto engage in sealioning, it appears to be almost exclusively what they do. The discussion at ] exhibits perhaps even more concerning argumentation than the diffs provided in the initial report. Throughout these discussions, BabbleOnto tends to demand a standard of stating the obvious (with respect to the context of said sources) that is absurd, and continues to lawyer for such standards even when the situation becomes ]. When criticizing sources' ability to account for basic claims, I can find no examples of BabbleOnto themselves attempting to find sources that would resolve the issues they identify--this is uncollaborative behavior. There is a clear pattern of engaging in this behavior across recent US politics topics consistent with the scope of ]. The only saving grace to BabbleOnto's track record is that none of this has translated into disruptive editing of actual articles, just unproductive engagement on talk pages. I am currently in favor of a topic ban from post-1992 American politics; if they are actually here to build an encyclopedia and not to provide a punching bag for debate club, they can use this opportunity to learn more constructive patterns of editing in topics that they are less personally invested in. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 01:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::{{u|Valereee}} in line with their follow-up response, I take Objective3000's comments as potentially a basis for community discussion rather than a call for protective action on the lab leak talk page right now. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 21:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* I have to agree, this looks like sealioning. {{u|BabbleOnto}}, you're new here, and I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt about your ability to learn to collaborate. WP works on collaboration and consensus, and sometimes consensus goes your way, sometimes it doesn't. You have to be willing to shrug, walk away, and go work on something else when consensus is against you. And you absolutely must not insist everyone else keep answering you until you're satisfied with their answers. I've seen editors at both the Thompson and the lab leak talks tell you they don't actually owe you an answer to your satisfaction. | |||
:Do you think you can learn to do that? Because if you don't think you can, this may not be the right hobby for you. | |||
::::::::There can be no reasonable doubt that it is Adil, the ancestry of that family is Sephardic while Ehud claims otherwise… he calls Sevan, and which is in the republic of Armenia, by an Azerbaijani name, again Adil’s baseless claims, no one brought it up, at least not this way, Atabek calls its “Azerbaijani” name Gokcha not Geycha. | |||
:<small>As an aside, I'm going to recommend what I always recommend to new editors who end up here: Contentious topics are a terrible place to learn. Go edit in noncontentious topics, where other editors are a lot less exhausted and have the energy to be more patient with new editors.</small> ] (]) 18:27, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::The sarcasm too is 100% Adil. Adil has been known to impersonate, Jewish, Armenian and various other ethnicities already and we know he can escape checkusers. So I doubt that you buy the claim that it was demonstrated that it was not Adil, when it is 100% sure that this guy is Adil. As for your comment about ''short memory'', you ignore again all the things which were done for months by Atabek, aimed at provoking members with offending comments and you merely put your finger on a recent event, no comment is even needed for that. - ] (]) 18:39, 22 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::@], hm, yes, and ] also has 37 archives, and even with archiving at 21 days, 20 sections. Do you think an ECR is something that talk page needs? That's not part of the authorized restrictions an individual admin can place...hm, and I'm not sure of the policy w/re most efficiently getting that done and wasting the fewest people's time. @]? ] (]) 21:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I would object to ECPing the talk page. COVID-19 ], though this specific ''article'' is protected. The purpose of protecting the page (in this case) is to push newer users to the talk page, where they can discuss changes they want made (such as by edit requests) and contribute towards consensus-building while not edit warring. Protecting talk pages is truly, ''truly'' a last resort. Ordinary good faith people would be entirely shut out and silenced—we'd not even get edit requests—and I frankly don't see anything near the level of disruption/LTA abuse that would justify jumping straight to ]. — ] <sub>]</sub> 01:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::@], not ECP. ECR: non-EC are restricted from anything but making edit requests. ] (]) 14:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::I see. In any case, ECR is the sort of remedy that should be reserved for more or less when all else fails—it’s still ''super'' restrictive. If new users/inexperienced users are trying to contribute towards consensus-building on the talk page (or even if they’re doing ordinary confused new editor things), and aren’t edit warring, I don’t think we’d actually be ] by enforcing ECR. | |||
:::::Suppose someone in good-faith sees “anyone can edit”, and they want to edit something topical. But then they see that the page that they want to edit is protected. They read the explanation that appears after clicking the “view source” tab. They then read that they can discuss this page with others, click on the first blue link, and then make a section using the “add topic” button in order to start a discussion. | |||
:::::“OK”, the newbie thinks, “maybe I will find someone else who agrees with me, or I’ll at least get some answer as to why the article is this way”. They leave their computer and come back in an hour. They then discover that their question has been removed by some random editor with edit summary “] violation, user not ]; malformed edit request” and find a contentious topics notice on their own user talk page, all because they don’t make a properly formatted edit request (i.e. “please change X to Y”). Or maybe they wont navigate the talk page history and they’ll angrily post that their earlier comment was deleted. Or maybe they just won’t come back. To top it off, nothing at any point in this process was obvious to them that such a requirement existed—there is no edit notice that says so, and so they couldn’t know. | |||
:::::] is ]y. It dissuades new voices from joining conversations, and it makes it somewhat hostile to true newbies. In particular, it dissuades people who, for example: | |||
:::::#Are Not hardcore/insane enough to deal with intense wiki-bureaucracy; | |||
:::::#Are unable to cope with handling unfamiliar wikitext markup when making edit requests for anything that is not a trivial word change, or who have abstract changes in mind more than concrete ones; | |||
:::::#Do not want to spend an hour of their time to figure out how to say the magic words to summon another editor to fix a typo. | |||
:::::The chief way that ECR works is by making LTAs/sockmasters have to put on a lot of effort or make a lot of edits. This raises the (time) cost of socking, and it has the benefit of possibly exposing tells along the way. But that also means that we’re imposing the same thing on good-faith newbies. | |||
:::::When deciding whether or not to impose ECR, we have to balance that it is extremely BITEy to good-faith newbies against its ability to prevent disruption. There are times where we are basically left to throw our hands up because of LTA/sockmaster abuse, and conclude that the tradeoff is worth it; the ArbCom has done this for certain contentious topics. But, the ArbCom had the wisdom to not enable ECR as a page sanction across all contentious topic areas—there is a very real tradeoff that needs to be really carefully considered. And I don’t the tradeoff leans towards embracing ECR ''here''. — <span style="background: linear-gradient(#990000,#660000)">] <sub>]</sub></span> 15:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::I'm don't think we need to have this discussion here and now, but I don't disagree it's bitey and needs to be used only where necessary. I was just asking the question of someone who is working at that article: is this an article talk where it's necessary? ] (]) 17:45, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
==Marlarkey== | |||
::::::::: It is OK to read these theories for me. They bring laughter. I am just kind of puzzled. By being an Armenian, and supposedly not speaking Azeri, what are you trying to prove by stating that one user calls the region ''Gokcha'' and the other one calls it ''Geycha''? For your information, if you open the doors to Azerbaijani articles and try to consider the other side of the story, you would come to know that ''Gokcha'' is transliteration from Russian, and ''Geycha'' from Azerbaijani. If two users are using different transliterations, why would one think the rest of the people belong to one category or another? If you did some real research instead of your "investigation", you would come to come that resources compiled/written based on Azeri sources or transliteration would state the name as "Geycha"; if Russian - then "Gokcha", etc. It's a matter of choice, Mr. fedayee. Atabek chose to use "Gokcha", Adil chose "Geycha". For your information, one of your friends got the name from Russian transliteration, while in Azeri sources it is Azizbayov or Azizbeyov. I see now that, according to your logic, in the few days, weeks, years, you'll be calling the rest of the Azeris, Jews, Georgians, Americans who use one or another way of calling the region, "Adils", "Atabeks" from now on. | |||
{{hat|Marlarkey p-blocked from ] and formally warned to be more mindful of policies, guidelines and best practices when editing CTOPs, particularly PIA <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 19:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
::::::::: Same applies to Adil Bagirov's posts on Zangezur and Geycha you provided links of, which he must have learned from websites, books, articles, and what others haven't learned much about. I, in my turn, have learned the history of both Armenia and Azerbaijan, and am mentioning what I had learned. Geycha and Zangezur, which are the present day Sevan and Syunik, have been a part of Azerbaijan up until they were transferred to Armenia in the beginning of the 20th century. I am not saying they weren't once a part of Armenian Empire. They belonged to both of the nations in various periods of time. The bottom line is that they are a part of independent Republic of Armenia and were recognized as part of Armenia by international community when it got its independence, as much as Karabakh is a part of Azerbaijan Republic and were recognized as part of Azerbaijan by international community; however was a subject to occupation by Armenian armed forced. You may call it a "myth" as much as you like, but it's a recorded history. You are so brainwashed by your own ideology, that you don't give yourself a chance to look at the other side of the paper. --] (]) 02:50, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning Marlarkey=== | |||
::::::::::The only thing you do with your answers is to confirm more and more that you are Adil. I have accumulated evidence that shows that even your intimidations and accusations are identical to Adil Baguirov. I will provide the evidence on ANI. It is also known why it would not have been logical that Adil Baguirov’s IP could have matched with yours, since Adil left for his postdoctoral only after he was banned, you forced me to say why the IP could not match even if he was not to use an open proxy. I will not say anything more on why your justifications are bogus, we'll see it on ANI and you will be free to reply. I will not be filling an Arbitration request, because my trust for the arbitration has reached an all-time low, I will only hope some administrators will use some of their time to go through the evidence. - ] (]) 06:53, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|WeatherWriter}} 23:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::: Fedayee, I strongly encourage you to file a report to ANI, because your harassment of Ehud has to stop. It is about the time admins put an end to this. Let them check all the evidence and results of cu and pass their own judgement. ] (]) 08:18, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Marlarkey}}<p>{{ds/log|Marlarkey}}</p> | |||
::::::::::: Quite clear above, in my posts, that there are no posts involving any sort of intimidation. I am not sure why you choose that kind of words if you understand that it'll be clear to any English speaking person that there are no intimidations on my part, only your continuous harrassment, baseless accusations, negative attitude. I must say that it's rather positive that you're so impressed by Adil Bagirov; so impressed that you happen to follow his life cycle, but I think you should free your mind from the name Ehud Lesar. File a checkuser, provide any kind of evidence on ANI, so that the administrators see, assess and evaluate, and clear out for you once and for all that I am not and never have been another user. Maybe then you'll stop your never ending harrassment. --] (]) 08:22, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
VartanM's choice of words was full of flavour. In light of the prior Arbcom cases this is not ideal, but among the reams of talk on these pages it isn't surprising that we all get frustrated from time to time and wax a bit lyrical about the tactics of others. The correct response at these times is to AGF, which in this case would mean assuming VartanM meant ''bazaar'' :- a jovial call for clarification would have been more effective then bringing this to AN/AE. | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
Fedayee, this thread is about VartanM, not Ehud Lesar. If you have enough proof that Ehud Lesar is someone else, "put up or shut up" until such time as you are ready to put your cards on the table. ] (]) 13:28, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
==TigranTheGreat== | |||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> | |||
{{report top}} | |||
], a party to two ArbCom cases , , has been placed under supervised editing . He has recently violated the remedy by editing the talk page of ] in an offensive manner directed: | |||
* a) against a nationality - with remarks like: "''...Italians and Germans. These two nationalities were '''well developed ethnic groups'''...''" and "''The loss of Nagorno-Karabakh alone presents a very real fear to '''so called "Azerbaijanis"''' about losing their own identity''" | |||
* b) against another contributor - . | |||
'''''' | |||
Thanks. ] (]) 16:34, 12 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
# - Mainspace PIA edit prior to EC status. | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request and acknowledgement of aforementioned edit. | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request. | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request. Accused another editor of vandalism. | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request. Says, "I don't give a stuff about what you or Israel say about the declaration." | |||
# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status. Accused editor of "vandalism" in edit summary. | |||
# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status. Accused editor of "vandalism" in edit summary. | |||
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# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status. | |||
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# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request. | |||
! style="background-color: #ffd8a0;" | {{{1 | Extended Discussion}}} | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request..."''Someone has reverted my removal of Israel - Hamas *AGAIN* so I've taken it out *AGAIN*.''" | |||
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# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status. | |||
| style="text-align:center;" | ''The following is a discussion that has been placed in a collapse box for improved usability.'''</span>'' | |||
# - Self-revert of direct previous mainspace reversion that was prior to EC status. | |||
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# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status...Made while this enforcement request was being typed up. This reversion by Marlarkey is of an edit with the direct edit summary of "Per ]". User is 100% disregarding CT requirements. | |||
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; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any : N/A. No previous blocks or topic bans. | |||
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;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): at 15:29, 21 November 2024. | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
:I'm unsure that saying Azeris weren't a well-developed ethnic group at a certain time is a violation. ] 16:58, 12 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
User has been on Misplaced Pages (on and off) since at least January 2010. It seems there is a ]-related issue on ArbCom PIA/Contentious topics, given the very clear lack of ignorance of the ArbCom Notification and subsequent edit summary arguments. I do not necessarily believe a block will be of use in this case, due to this editor's on-and-off Misplaced Pages editing status (less than 500 edits since January 2010). Either a topic ban and/or a 1,000 EC status requirement (i.e. EC-status requirement is something higher than 500 edits) is being requested. '''The ]''' (] 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*One of the edits by Marlarkey listed above from 13 January 2025 has been by {{u|ScottishFinnishRadish}} for Marlarkey not being ECR logged. '''The ]''' (] 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:*{{ping|Marlarkey}} I want to ], so I wanted to let you know that ] is what we call "broadly constructed". If you read ], it says, "{{tq|These are the current arbitration remedies applicable to any pages and edits that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict.}}" The edit you are attempting to me is ''related'' to the Arab-Israel conflict. The page itself does not have to be entirely about the war to be covered under the restrictions. Any edit that is at least, even slightly related to the conflict is covered under the restrictions. While the page is about declarations of war throughout history, the specific edit is related to whether the Israel-Hamas war was a declaration of war. That is obviously related to the conflict, given it specifically is in regard to the ]. That is why the edits were reverted and why this violation report was filed. Hopefully that makes sense. Also, just a quick side-note, accusing other editors of vandalism is ] and is not really how Misplaced Pages operates. You should always ]. '''The ]''' (] 23:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::*{{ping|Marlarkey}} We are all working together to create a better encyclopedia. No one is against you and we do wish for all to edit Misplaced Pages. The ArbCom restrictions require that you have (1) at least an account of 30 days old and (2) at least 500 edits, to be able to edit content anywhere on Misplaced Pages regarding the Israel-Hamas war. At the time of all the edits linked above, you did not have 500 edits on Misplaced Pages. You were roughly at 490. At the time of this, you now have over 500 edits, which means you could now edit content regarding the Israel-Hamas war. That said, this report was made because of the several edits you made prior to reaching the 500 edit requirement. | |||
:::Please understand this is for the edits that you made which were in clear violation of the policy, which requires you to have 500 edits prior to editing anything even remotely related to the conflict. This report was not that you are incorrect with your removal of the content. Not at all. This report is because you removed the content before you were allowed to (i.e. the 500-edit mark). Please understand we all are on the same-side here and no one is vandalizing anything. Once this is resolved, I would be more than happy to calmly discuss the content changes with you. I hope you can understand that this report is specifically because you made the changes before you were allowed to and not at all regarding the content in those changes. '''The ]''' (] 00:52, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::El C, ethnic groups cannot be well or underdeveloped, saying so maybe considered a racist generalization remark. This is especially emphasized by the subsequent reported sentence calling "so called Azerbaijanis". The nations and countries can be well or underdeveloped but not ethnic groups. Thanks. ] (]) 18:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
*{{ping|Rosguill}} After my last reply, I realized I went 105 words over the 500-word limit. I would like to request that 105-word extension (so I do not have to reword or remove the last reply I made). I do not plan to reply again as I think everything I needed to say and link to has been said and linked to. '''The ]''' (] 00:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:: But how about referring to modern day Azerbaijanis as "so called Azerbaijanis"? Is it Ok to make such comments about other ethnic groups in Misplaced Pages? ] (]) 17:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::<s>Yes, it's okay.</s> By which I mean, that would be a problem. ] 17:07, 12 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::Sorry, I'm a bit impatient about (seemingly) rhetorical questions. I should not have been the one to respond to this. I'll go do something else now. ] 17:10, 12 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
At any case, I dropped the user a note. ] 17:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
: Thanks. I hope this will resolve the problem. ] (]) 17:43, 12 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
===Discussion concerning Marlarkey=== | |||
Saying that "Azerbaijanis" have underdeveloped national identity is well supported in literature and is quite relevant to the topic. It's an artificial term of purely political origin applied to a non-existent nationality. Now, again, if Grandmaster can refer to the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic as "separatists," "non-existent state," or "illegal entity," we need to be able to state the relevant opinions on "Azerbaijanis."--] (]) 01:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by Marlarkey==== | |||
: I hope the admins will pay attention to the above inflammatory and nationalistic comment (and the one below on the thread about Atabek) by TigranTheGreat. This is not the first instance of him making such comments, but so far he received nothing but a warning. ] (]) 05:21, 13 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
{{userlinks|WeatherWriter}} is repeatedly reverting edits which are removing information outside the scope of the page in question. My edits are validly citated within the scope of the page. {{userlinks|WeatherWriter}} has cited WP:ARBPIA but that is not relevant to THIS article which is not a Palestine-Israel article. This article is not a contentious topic - it is factual. | |||
: And any parallels with my statements about NK are out of place, they are not directed against the Armenian people, and are merely the repetition of the position of the international community, which cannot be anti-Armenian, see these: This is just an attempt to distract attention from his unacceptable remarks about other ethnic groups. ] (]) 05:58, 13 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
My edits are WP:NPOV. This article is about declarations of war - the opening statement states "A declaration of war is a formal act by which one state announces existing or impending war activity against another." | |||
And I merely repeat what other scholars, including well-respected ones in the West, have said about the "Azerbaijanis." Here is, for example, Patricia Carley of the United States Institute of Peace: | |||
1. Hamas is not a nation state - So Israel vs Hamas should not be included in the article | |||
:''The knowledge that they essentially lost that war has led the Azeris to be fearful of the possibility that their nation could disintegrate, beginning with the loss of Karabakh. They thus believe the future of their integrity as a people lies in the favorable resolution of the Nagorno-Karabakh dispute. This feeling is intensified by the Azeris’ '''relatively underdeveloped sense of nationhood'''. Armenians very likely do not appreciate the extent to which '''Azeris believe their very existence to be threatened by the notion of independence for Nagorno-Karabakh'''.'' http://www.usip.org/pubs/peaceworks/pwks25/keypts25.html | |||
2. Hezbollah is not a nation state - So Israel vs Hezbollah should not be included in the article | |||
3. Russia vs Ukraine are both nation states - the question then is whether there has been a declaration of war. | |||
In the case 1 & 2, the removal of these two entries is WP:NPOV and the inclusion or otherwise in this article is in no way a comment on the conflict in question - only whether they constitute a declaration of war by one nation state on another. Which they do not because they are nation states. | |||
The fact that what we refer to as "Azeris" is a group with underdeveloped identity is well known. In fact, it's been suggested that the only thing holding them together as a coherent group is their defeat in the Nagorno-Karabakh war. These statements are quite relevant to the discussion on the "Armenian-Tatar Massacres" article. The discussion is on whether we should call the culprits of massacres "Azeris" or Tatars." Just because Grandmaster disagrees with this opinion and agrees with his own views on Nagorno-Karabakh is irrelevant here--it's a content dispute. | |||
In the case of 3, the inclusion of Russia vs Ukraine only relies on whether there has been a declaration of war. The citation I gave is documented evidence of Russia announcing that a state of war exists between Russia and Ukraine. | |||
If on the other hand, we are to exclude opinions (whether we agree or disagree with them) that some may find offensive, then Grandmaster has to stop making his comments about Nagorno-Karabakh. Some Armenians find such comments offensive, and have requested Grandmaster to stop making them (recently, on the Shusha Talk page ), which he has ignored. If, on the other hand, he wants to continue expressing such opinions, then he cannot complain about others stating the truth that he finds unpleasant.--] (]) 10:57, 13 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
I suggest that by taking the action they have that the complainant is the one acting in a that asserts a political opinion about the conflict | |||
: You said that Azerbaijanis are "non-existent nationality". Is this a scholarly accepted fact or your personal belief? ] (]) 11:31, 13 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
Just as you believe that Nagorno-Karabakh is a non-existent state, I believe that "Azerbaijanis" are a non-existent nationality. It's based on scholarly literature. As I have explained before, "Azerbaijani" is a fictional identity concocted by pan-Turkic and later Soviet ideologists for political reasons. The fact that this particular group has a weak sense of identity, as stated by Western analysts, is a further evidence of this. The real Azerbaijanis are those living in Iran--in fact, they are part of the Iranian cultural environment quite unconnected with the so-called "Azerbaijanis" north of Arax (for example, they are quite friendly with the Armenians, helping NKR overcome the effects of the blockade). My belief is that nationalists and ideologists should leave these people alone and let them determine their own identity. | |||
The reference by Weatherwriter to 21 November 2024 - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Is only a partial quote - what I actually said was "I don't give a stuff about what you or Israel say about the declaration. I care about whether it is in the scope of this page." | |||
Now, if you want us to be sensitive to your feelings, then you need to stop making comments about Nagorno-Karabakh that some find offensive. You can't have it both ways.--] (]) 11:41, 13 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
The key is the final point - the scope of this article and whether the edits are validly cited in accordance with the topic of the article...namely a list of declarations of war. | |||
Weatherwriter reversions of my edits serve to support a political opinion on a page which is about facts. | |||
: Just to note that the opinion of Carley is merely a repetition of the opinion of the Armenian scholar Ronald Suny, which she openly admits: ''A factor involved in this fierce determination to preserve their territorial integrity, suggested Suny, is the weak or underdeveloped sense of nationhood among Azeris''. De-jure non-existence of NK as an independent state is not my opinion, it is the opinion of the international community, while your personal perception of Azerbaijani people as non-existent or whatever is purely a racist remark. ] (]) 12:05, 13 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
'''I'm pretty angry about being accused in this way when MY edits were factually based and neutral point of view, whereas by reverting my edits it does precisely the opposite, allowing contentious and politically biased information to infect the page.''' GRRRRRRrrr | |||
The international community does not say NK is non-existent or illegal, just that it's unrecognized. Your statements on its "non-existence" and "illegality" are your own POV conclusions. Now, whether opinions are supported by international community or individual scholars is irrelevant here--it's a content dispute. If you can state your POV in a discussion, then so can others, even if you find the truth uncomfortable. | |||
] (]) 23:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I am not saying the people of Azerbijan are individually underdeveloped or genetically inferior. I am just saying they, as a whole, are underdeveloped as a national group--a statement which is supported by Patricia Carley. So, it's not racist, it's just the truth. And I wouldn't bring it up unless you didn't claim that "Azerbaijanis and Tatars are the same people." When you make a false claim, I have to be able to challenge it. | |||
By the way, Patricia Carley does not quote Suny (an American scholar, who merely happens to be ethnically Armenian) when stating her opinions on the "Azerbaijani" identity. She makes perfectly clear when she quotes Suny.--] (]) 12:17, 13 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
On another point, following me reviewing the information in this complaint by WeatherWriter... | |||
: The international community does say that NK authorities are illegitimate and refers to them as separatists, see these statements by ] and ]. In particular, PACE says: “''Considerable parts of the territory of Azerbaijan are still occupied by Armenian forces, and separatist forces are still in control of the Nagorno-Karabakh region''”. Whether you like that or not, that’s not my personal opinion, and it is not offensive to the Armenian people in general, and I never heard of either organization being ever accused of anti-Armenian sentiment. Your references to Azerbaijani people in general as “so called” and “non-existent”, etc cannot be compared with the references to separatist movements. They are inflammatory and repeated in defiance of the request by the admin. ] (]) 13:46, 13 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
"If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)" The complainant cites a link to information which I have JUST accessed and have never seen before just now. I was NOT aware of this information so it is false to suggest that this constitutes evidence that I was aware. | |||
Again this makes me angry at the accusations being made against me. If you don't want people editing and contributing to wikipedia then please just say so. GRRR | |||
"does not recognize the legitimacy of elections" doesn't mean "NK is an illegal and non-existent entity." As for "separatists," when you use the term outside quoted texts, then you adopt it. Armenian users have pointed to you that they find your use of the term offensive. You are free to refer to NKR simply as "Nagorno-Karabakh" or "unrecognized state." You chose to use the terms mentioned earlier, which is in defiance of requests made to you. | |||
] (]) 00:35, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:I give up... I'm being accused and being told off for responding to the accusation. I don't know anything about this procedure, have never seen this page before and know nothing about how this works because its new to me. | |||
*:But I get it - I'm not part of the club that decides things... so I'll let you get on with that. ] (]) 00:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::<small>(Moved from WeatherWriter's section</small> I get it - you'd rather call me out by this procedure than have an accurate encyclopaedia article. You've made accusations against me and put me through this over restrictions that I knew nothing about and policies I knew nothing about. I simply came across something inaccurate and followed what I understood to be WP principles and made an objectively accurate edit. | |||
::::So now the end result is that an inaccurate article containing a politically biased assertion is going to stay live. ] (]) 02:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
===Result concerning Marlarkey=== | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
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{{u|Marlarkey}}, you have gone a bit over your 500 word allotment for responses. Please do not comment further unless directly asked to. I will remove an additional reply that was both over your limit and in the wrong section. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 00:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::{{u|Weather Event Writer}}, extension granted as that's essentially what Marlarkey has already taken. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 01:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Discussions on talk pages are meant to contain opinions of the parties. Whether an opinion is supported by the "international community" does not make it any less inflammatory. Nor is such support relevant here--this is not a forum to discuss content disputes. The only issue is whether members find some opinions offensive. If you don't want to read opinions offensive to you, then you either agree to refrain from opinions offensive to others, or you avoid bringing the subject matter into discussion.--] (]) 14:24, 13 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
Ok, having now reviewed ]'s page history, its talk page discussion, and Marlarkey's contributions more generally, I find that: | |||
: Once again, referring to separatist authorities as such is not a racial slur, whether someone likes it or not, unlike your comments, which are directed against all people of certain ethnicity. ] (]) 15:42, 13 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:* Marlarkey has repeatedly violated ] at ] since having received a CTOP notice | |||
:*Irrespective of whether it is correct or not to include the Israel-Hamas war, Israel-Hezbollah war, or wars between states and non-state entities more broadly, WeatherWriter's edits to the page are plainly not ], which has a specific (and serious) meaning on Misplaced Pages | |||
:*It appears to be a long-term status quo to include non-state entities provided that there is a citation to some sort of formal declaration of war, and the page's inclusion of conflicts involving non-states ] and ] do not appear to have been challenged at any point. | |||
:*Marlarkey is incorrect to assert that their edit is {{tq|objectively accurate}}. Whether the edit is accurate is subject to community consensus, and the talk page arguments in favor of inclusion base themselves on RS reporting which is a valid, policy-compliant argument. Marlarkey's arguments that a declaration of war can only occur be between two states do not make any reference to a reliable source stating this; while that text is currently in the lead of the article, it does not have a citation nor is it clear that any citation in the article directly backs this. | |||
:*In light of discussion at ], which at this point shows multiple editors in favor of keeping the Hamas and Hezbollah wars, only Marlarkey firmly for removing them, and one other editor calling for discussion as of December 31st, Marlarkey's edits to unilaterally remove the entries in January amount to slow-motion edit warring | |||
:*Given that Marlarkey has had an account for well over a decade, has edited a wide variety of topics, hit 500 edits while this was happening, does not appear to have otherwise shown interest in Israel/Palestine topics, and that the edits at Declaration of war don't fit into any clear POV-warrior pattern, I don't think that pulling extended-confirmed or issuing a PIA topic ban would help. | |||
I'm thus inclined to suggest an indefinite partial block from ] (but not its talk page) as a regular admin action for edit warring, and a logged warning to be mindful of CTOP standards. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 04:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC | |||
*As Marlarkey stated that they were unaware of CT, I wanted to confirm that I double checked and found that the CT notice was properly left in November. If Marlarkey chose not to read it, well, that's rather on him—we can only leave messages, we can't force people to read them. I would otherwise agree with Rosguill's assessment. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 12:00, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*I entirely endorse Rosguill's reading of this. I am not happy about Marlarkey's approach to our restrictions, but I don't see this as EC gaming, and I can't see how pulling EC rights could be justified at this stage. As such I endorse the proposed page block and logged warning. Marlarkey, you seem to believe that because you are right on the substance you can ignore process and guidelines - that simply isn't true. The arbitration committee has consistently held that ]; you need to be able to edit within the scope of our policies. ] (]) 17:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* Pretty much everything Rosquill said. {{u|Marlarkey}}, it doesn't look like you have a huge amount of experience working in ]s. I'm sorry you're finding this upsetting, but CTOPs are a whole 'nother world, and you're either going to have to learn how to nonproblematically work there, or not work there. ] (]) 18:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:FWIW, the CTOP warning was ]. You've got your archiving set so aggressively that you may be missing a lot of messages, and it's completely plausible that you missed this one, which was only on your talk for two days, and after it was left you didn't edit for a month. However, we do assume that if you've got your archiving set that aggressively, you're keeping on top of anything important by checking your notifications to make sure you didn't miss anything. | |||
*:You can probably prevent this happening in future by having your talk page archive ''no more frequently than you typically go between editing sessions'', leaving maybe the five most recent messages unarchived, and/or being sure to check your notifications when logging back in. Any one of those three and you've have likely seen the notification. ] (]) 18:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{hatb}} | |||
==DanielVizago== | |||
::Tigran, Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, in which you're under supervision not to edit in a manner offensive to other contributors (in this case of Azeri nationality) and in good faith. And it does not matter if you cite Armenian Ronald Grigor Suny to justify your offensive claims, because such citations of yours would be similar to citing Vasili Velichko to judge the genetic makeup and claim the underdevelopment of Armenians, or Adolph Hitler in justifying anti-Semitic views in abstract case. Please, assume good faith. ] (]) 15:44, 13 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning DanielVizago=== | |||
You and Grandmaster are under the same supervision as well. If you express inflammatory opinions about Nagorno-Karabakh, then others are free to express their opinions on the underdeveloped nature of so-called "Azerbaijanis" in a discussion. The discussion is on whether the Tatars can be called Azerbaijanis, and the artificial nature of the Azerbaijani identity is crucial to the debate. It is by no means racist--I am not saying each individual "Azerbaijani" is inferiour--only that the group as a whole is lacking a well-developed identity. This is a well known and quoted fact. The modern descendants of Tatars cannot even decide whether they are Iranian or Turkic, obviously they cannot be assumed to possess a clear national identity. If you find this offensive, then you need to agree not to express opinions offensive to others. --] (]) 16:14, 13 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Schazjmd}} 23:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|DanielVizago}}<p>{{ds/log|DanielVizago}}</p> | |||
By the way, I highly doubt that Patricia Carley, a modern Western analyst working for the United States Institute of Peace, can be compared to Adolf Hitler. Please refrain from making misleading comments, and assume good faith.--] (]) 16:24, 13 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:Atabek, lets to not compare Armenian-American prominent historian with... Hitler. Pls assume good fight and more tolerance to Armenian side! I just want to remind how many times you deleted quotes by foreign scolars and added an Armenian-American historian (Hovhannisian) as a source for Armenian-Azerbaijani topics at ], just cuz it seems to be biased pro-Azeri. Was it ok? ] (]) 17:14, 13 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:: I think at this point it is better to wait for an admin assessment of Tigran's comments. ] (]) 05:38, 14 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
We could also wait for assessment of your continued inflammatory comments. And your defiance of requests made to you to stop them.--] (]) 09:45, 14 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
: I don't remember any admin asking me about that. ] (]) 10:24, 14 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
# Added ] to a BLP, after CTOP notification and several talk page messages notifying DanielVizago that the category is not to be applied to articles about individuals (per category description, {{tq|This category is for issues relating to misandry. It must not include articles about individuals, groups or media that are allegedly misandrist.}}); | |||
# and Removing sourced content from ] that states misandry is not a major an issue as misogyny; | |||
# Changing content in ] to emphasize misandry (reverted by another editor with edit summary {{tq|rv, poorly sourced (sources supplemented by WP:OR and WP:SYNTH), earlier version was better, closer to sources}}); | |||
# Added "bimisandry" to ], citing 4 sources, none of which include that term; | |||
# 14 Jan 2025, weird edits adding ] with piped names to unrelated articles, then those names directly to the category page; | |||
# restored the "bimisandry" edit to ], then a 5th ref that includes the term but is just a blog; I left a 4th-level warning on talk page; | |||
# (after final warning) adds <nowiki>] and ]</nowiki> to ]; those two individuals don't have articles and there is no mention in this article of their charges or convictions, even though the category solely consists of {{tq|articles of female individuals who have been convicted of rape in a court of law.}} | |||
; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any : | |||
You were asked by Armenian users. You showed disregard for fellow Wikipedians. And you continue to do so.--] (]) 14:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
*None | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
:"Separatists" was not the right term from the beginning. "Irredentists" should have been the one. Anyway, but saying that "there is no Nagorno-Karabakh nation" is not the same as saying "there is no such a nation as Azerbaijanis". Current population of Nagorno-Karabakh are ethnically the same Armenians as those in Glendale or Marselle, Yerevan or Beyrut. "Azerbaijanis" often referred by Armenians as "Turks", are not exactly same as those in Turkey. There is a formed nation from 16th century onwards, which had many names throughout the centuries and got the name "Azerbaijanis" or "Azeris" in 20th century. Whether you like it or not, whether you believe in that or not, this is the reality and you have to accept it. They may be divided, half living in the Caucasus, half in Iran, but ethnically they are the same people. I may understand pro-Kasravis and pro-Pahlavis saying "there is no Azerbaijanis", but I really do not understand the logic of Armenians who say "there is no Azerbaijanis" or refer to them as "so called Azerbaijanis" If you deny the existence of force that fought with your people over Nagorno-Karabakh, then whom did you fight with? I am not asking you to write here what you think about them, but you have to accept how they name themselves. It is your business how you call them among yourselves, in your own language, but this is the name how we're "registered" at the U.N., CoE, libraries and univesities, encyclopedias and textbooks, known in English language. You have to use this name to approach us or call us. If I am asked to identify a nation living next to my borders in the English language, I have to say "Armenian", not "ermeni" as I do in my own language. There are Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh. There are no "Nagorno-Karabakhis" in Nagorno-Karabakh. May be in 100 years from now, there will be a new ethnicity formed which will be different from the Armenians living in Yerevan, but until it is accepted by the academic world, I cannot claim or do so - I have to refer to recognised literature for that. --] (]) 18:11, 14 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
*I alerted them on | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
Actually we have no obligation to follow the opinion of the UN, at least not in the discussion pages. We don't require you to use the term Armenian Genocide, as we realize it can be uncomfortable for you. As for the "Azerbaijanis," I hope you know that the so called "Azerbaijani literature," at least prior to 1919, was purely Turkmen in origin. I therefore don't see how we can talk about a "formed nation of Azerbaijanis," especially in the 16th century. The modern remnants of Tatars living in the Republic of Azerbaijan are a conglomerate of Turkic speaking groups with little national identity, and have been so for centuries. Imposing the fictional label "Azerbaijani" doesn't change this fact. And I am not sure what you mean by Nagorno-Karabakh fighting a "force"--NKR merely crushed the Republic of Azerbaijan, so any mention of a "force" here is meaningless and irrelevant. Plus, just because the Baku regime made these unfortunate people go into a disastous war doesn't mean they actually share a single clear national identity. | |||
Above diffs are all edits ''after'' the CTOP notification was provided. Before then, DanielVizago misapplied ] to 46 articles, which is what caught my attention. Their attempts to add "bimisandry" to ] started . On 28 Dec 2024, DanielVizago added a lot of content to ] about misandry, which another editor with edit summary {{tq|remove recently added pro-fringe section and put back the excerpt}}. Most of their 122 edits have been reverted by multiple editors. | |||
Before the level 4 warning, I guiding DanielVizago away from CTOP; they don't engage on their talk page. (They've posted there once, to say "thanks" in response to a warning.) With their refusal to communicate, poor sourcing, and non-NPOV edits, I don't think they should be editing in this topic area. ] ] 23:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
As for the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, you cannot say that your offenses are better and therefore allowed. NK is an Armenian state, it's part of the Armenian homeland, and Armenians hold it dear to heart. Any derogatory comments about that state can be deemed offensive by Armenian users.--] (]) 19:27, 14 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
* | |||
Not "Turkmen", but "Turkman" or "Turkoman" is what you mean. There were other names, such Kizilbash, Qaraqoyunlu, Akkoyunlu. These were the names that this people used to name themselves throughout these centuries. The last name used by this people prior to 19th century was "Moslem". "Tatar" or "Tartar" was the name used by outsiders. It was used simultaneously along with "Azerbaijani Tatars" or just "Azerbaijanis" already in 19th century by the Russian ethnographers, such as M.N. Makarov. There are many nations in the world who have been named differently throughout the centuries and today if you tell a German that the Prussians were not Germans, they will laugh at you. "Armenian Genocide" unlike "Azerbaijanis" is not used or recognized by the U.N. or CoE, OSCE. If it was ever used in their official documents, then we would probably refer to it in this list and recognize it. What I meanby "force" is that the war is not over and there is still a danger that it would start again, according to ICG. NK Army, or Armenian forces, unlike us who had a more promising support from the Russians, was not the winner in the battles. There were times in winter of 1993 and spring of 1994, when NK Army was retreating and leaving behind significant territories. There was a time in 1992, when Azerbaijani Army was standing only 5 kms of Khankendi or Stepanakert. You never know how this situation can change. Therefore, it is always a good tactic in wars to know and respect the enemy, and not use a denial. You perfectly know that in 1905 both sides gave victims and it was a senseless clash, according to the same Armenian sources invoked by the Czarist Russia (See James Henry book from 1905). By saying that the people who fought with Armenians in Baku in 1905 were the descendants of Tatars you are only deceiving yourself. You perfectly know who they were. --] (]) 07:55, 15 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
The abundance of names used for the nomadic Turkic tribes in Caucasus is a further indication that these tribes and their modern Tatar descendants in Azerbaijan have lacked a national identity. I understand that this may be difficult to admit by the "Azerbaijanis," given the fictional theories fed to them by the Baku regime, but we need to call things by their names. As for your account of Azerbaijan's defeat, it's a well known fairy tale invented by the Azerbaijani propaganda machine to cover the country's humiliation. It still does not change the fact that Azerbaijan suffered a devastating defeat at the hands of Nagorno-Karabakh. Russia equally helped both Armenians and the Azeris. In fact, it's a well known fact that the only reason Armenians retreated in 1992 is that they were faced with an overwhelming number of Russian merceneries. Western sources describe the Armenian advances as "armed tourism"--they followed the usual pattern of Armenians advancing and the Azeri army escaping the battlefield. The only reason the Azeris lost is that they were forced to fight for a land that was not their own, coupled with their underdeveloped national identity and unity. So, your attempt to prove the existence of a fictional "Azerbaijani" identity by their "fight" against Armenians is incorrect.--] (]) 10:40, 15 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
===Discussion concerning DanielVizago=== | |||
: Dear Aynabend, there's no need to turn this into ethnographic dispute. The problem here is with Tigran's comments, and those comments being a problem was acknowledged by the admin above. They are clearly based on ethnic prejudice and are offensive to the entire Azerbaijani people. Misplaced Pages is not a place where such behavior is appreciated. I'm still waiting for the admin take on the situation. ] (]) 10:05, 15 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by DanielVizago==== | |||
Actually the problem is that you, Atabek, and now Aynaberd continue making comments that you have been told to be problemating, and that you continue to disregard the concerns of your fellow Wikipedians. Certainly that's not a behavior appreciated in Misplaced Pages. I generally wouldn't bring up the delicate issues surrouding the "Azerbaijani" identity and the NK War, but when you make false claims on talk pages and here regarding Tatars and the war, then I have to point out why they are inaccurate. If you and your fellow Azeri members do not like the subject matter, then you need to stop pursuing them.--] (]) 10:46, 15 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by caeciliusinhorto==== | |||
By the way, calling another user "ethnically prejudiced," as Grandmaster did above, is a blatant personal attack against another user, which is a grave violation of Misplaced Pages policies. It seems Grandmaster's behavior has progressed from making comments offensive to Armenians, to downright attacks against the person of another Misplaced Pages user.--] (]) 12:55, 15 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
Since this report was opened, DanielVizago has continued to make questionable edits adding articles to ]. | |||
* , categorising a living person who has been accused (but not charged, let alone convicted) of sexual assault as a rapist (cf. ]) | |||
: Please don't distort my words. I did not call you ethnically prejudiced. I said that your comments are based on ethnic prejudice. That's a different thing. ] (]) 14:15, 15 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
* adds the category to a disambiguation page on the basis of one of the people listed on that page, who had in fact been convicted not of rape but of | |||
* and edit categorise two sexually-motivated murderers as rapists despite no evidence that they ever raped anyone in the article (cf. ]) | |||
] (]) 10:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
: But then again, Tigran, you just said that the Azerbaijani ethnic identity is "fictional". Do you think that it is OK to make such comments about the entire people? ] (]) 14:17, 15 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
I say nothing that academic sources haven't already said about Azerbaijan's population. Even western sources consider "Azeris" to have an "underdeveloped national identity," which is in a very real danger of disintegration due to loss of Nagorno-Karabakh.. As much as you may find the truth uncomfortable, we can't deny it. And the only reason I have brought it up is to refute your claims about the identity and naming of Tatars in the "Armenian-Tatar conflict" article.--] (]) 16:57, 15 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> | |||
===Result concerning DanielVizago=== | |||
: Is Azerbaijanis being a "fictional identity" supported by academic sources? Even Suny does not say that. ] (]) 20:22, 15 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
*I've p-blocked from article space to see if we can get this editor communicating. ] (]) 12:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Yes, as identities go, it's a weak and unclear one. Scholars agree. Here are a few more, in addition to Patricia Carley: | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
:''"Azerbaijani fear of Armenians was further inflated, ironically, by the relative '''weakness of Azerbaijani identity''' as compared to Armenian One"'' (S.Kaufmann, Modern hatred, Cornell University Press, 2001. See page 58.) | |||
*<!-- | |||
--> | |||
:''"In the case of the third major ethnic group of South Caucus, the Azerbaijanis, the path towards nationhood was strewn with obstacles. First, '''there was uncertainty about Azerbaijani ethnic identity''', which was a result of the influence of Azerbaijani’s many varied Russian conquerers"(''B. Fowkes, "Ethnicity and Ethnic Conflict in the Post-Communist World," Palgrave Macmillan, 2002. See page 68) | |||
:''"Despite these myths, the historical and cultural elements of which the ex-Soviet Azerbaijanis are most proud, such as being the land of Zoroaster and the poet Nizami, have '''distinctly Iranian origins and character'''. Ironically the realization of this fact, rather than bringing the ex-Soviet Azerbaijanis closer to Iran, has had the opposite effect. This is because '''Azerbaijanis feel that the Iranian connection would hamper the development of an independent Azerbaijani identity''' – and , as far as some are concerned, a purely Turkic identity."''(David Menashri, "Central Asia Meets the Middle East," Routledge, 1998. See page 107) | |||
:''"In Contrast with the Armenians, the '''Azerbaijani national identity is very recent'''. In fact, '''the very name "Azerbaijani" was not widely used until the 1930s'''; before that, '''Azerbaijani intellectuals were unsure whether they should call themselves Caucasian Turks, Muslims, Tatars or something else'''."'' (S.Kaufmann, Modern hatred, Cornell University Press, 2001. See page 56.) | |||
--] (]) 20:36, 15 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:: Regarding the last quote and the subject we discuss (who were these Tatars who clashed Armenians in 1905?), '''there is no direct correlation between the changing names of an ethnicity throughout the centuries and existence or non-existence of national identity'''. National identity in the same time does not have a unique and standard formula. Modern Azerbaijanis' identity started to shape in 13 century with Heterodox Shia Islam, was strengthened in 16th century by a state religion and unified state and started to disappear with the wars of 19th century wars and annexation by Russian Empire. In the Soviet era it changed its form or died for 70 years. Current status I agree is unclear. But this does not change the fact that the Turkoman in 13-15 centuries, Tatars in 1905, Caucasian Turks in 20's, or Azerbaijanis in the 20th century were/are the same people, same ethnicity. I think there is no need for further discussions. I am ready to give my consent to link this article to the articles related to modern Tatars of Kazan and Crimea. Let them solve their “old problems”. --] (]) 22:49, 15 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
Tigran, there is a poem of the greatest and perhaps the most renowned Russian poet of XIXth century, Alexander Pushkin, associating in his words the Armenians with thieves and cowards ("Поди ты прочь - ты мне не сын. Ты не чеченец - ты старуха. Ты трус, ты раб, ты армянин."), in fact, here is the link to Roland Grigor Suny's book reciting that same quote . While this is a referenced source, it's still an insult against an ethnicity, and it does not establish basis for any Misplaced Pages contributor to use these words as evidence in articles about Armenians or even further, like yourself, argue for their justification. So, as you have been explained above, assume good faith and stop insulting people's ethnic identity by spending time to look for such sources. ] (]) 05:31, 16 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:Well, then, tell that to Parishan who used a sole source to claim that Azerbaijani is a ], by an Armenophobe author who calls Armenians parasites in the same article. Don't use double standards and delete the Parishan addition yourself. Beside, are you comparing some deluded poet with a position which holds consensus in the academia? ] (]) 06:17, 16 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
VartanM, given your active Wiki involvement recently, have you been removing/editing/disputing the ethnicity insulting edits of TigranTheGreat? Provided not so, I would recommend that you also assume good faith. And I think calling a literary giant like A. S. Pushkin a deluded poet may sound a bit insulting to the history of Russian literature, moreover, comparing him to a far less known R. G. Suny, who was actually citing Pushkin, is also a bit too much. Thanks. ] (]) 07:20, 16 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
: Vartan, don't make claims of consensus without having proper source to support such a claim. The opinion of some is not equal to the opinion of majority. And I did not see a single source calling Azerbaijani ethnic identity fictional, like Tigran did. ] (]) 07:30, 16 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::This is ridiculous. Ulvi/Aynabend, what you're claiming is for sure wrong; I’d be surprised if you'd believe all that as a professional historian. We don't even need to find any direct correlation when both in this case mean about the same thing. Stephen F. Jones writes: ''Azerbaijani identity, as distinct from Muslim identity, was weak even among the intelligentsia, which was predominantly ''secular.'''' (Socialism in Georgian Colors: The European Road to Social Democracy, 1883-1917, Harvard University Press (2005) p. 19) When they cover national identity they incorporate ethnicity in this particular case (and I will develop furthermore on why this is obvious.) | |||
:::You are asking who were these Tatars… this is one of the disagreements and the same author writes: ''In 1897 'Tatars'-which officially included most Muslim groups...'' While Persians, Chechens and Kurds (to a lesser extent though) were separately included, Tatars included various Muslim groups. ''Azerbaijani'' the modern identity represents the product of homogenisation and assimilation, while Tatars included various tribes, nomads etc. | |||
:::Do you really believe that the modern Azerbaijani identity started to shape in the 13th century? The origin of the Azerbaijani ethnic identity started in Persia during the 19th century, mostly with the help of the Ottoman Empire which had a certain policy in the region. And my source on the birth of the identity is none other than Touraj Atabaki (Azerbaijan: Ethnicity and Autonomy in Twentieth-Century Iran, British Academia Press, 1993). Prior to that, it was just a region of Persia (South of Arax). | |||
:::I'm intrigued on something; you do admit that what is called "Azerbaijani literature" was in fact Turkman in origin… what I fail to understand is your persistence in continuing to claim Turkman history as Azerbaijani when it is the other way around even from your indirect admission. Your comparison with the Prussians doesn't make sense either because Prussians are not Germans I don't know where you got all that. Past NAZI propaganda claimed such stuff... even Germans don’t claim such a thing. They were Baltic people speaking a Baltic language prior to the establishment of a German government in Prussia. If you claim they were German then no wonder you think the Azerbaijani identity started forming in the 13th century. | |||
:::I said that I will cover why national identity and ethnic identity is the same in this case and that it is used alternatively by scholars; so here we go. Since the Turkic tribes living there didn't have any clear and defined identity besides Islam, they formed their ethnicity and their identity with the geographic area they were living in. This was Tigran’s point when he said that if Azerbaijan was to be cut to pieces, they will form various different identities because this modern identity has been built recently and is built on the geographic region that they are living in. Basically this is why Artsakh’s independence is a threat to the Azerbaijani identity; without their defined borders they have no history under that identity. This is why all the myths about everything Armenian is Albanian and that Azerbaijanis are the decedents of the Albanians pop up. The intellectuals needed those myths to fabricate a history on their identity and compete with the clearly defined Armenian identity that has been around for centuries before the current era. | |||
:::So in brief, nothing Tigran said is wrong. If you find something offending there, it does not make a difference because most academics support his position. - ] (]) 07:32, 16 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::: See my above post. ] (]) 07:42, 16 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::: This discussion does not belong here. I can easily prove you wrong by citing plenty of reliable sources, but this is not a place for that. What is discussed here is how appropriate is by a member of certain ethnic group to call an ethnic identity of another one "so called", "fictional", etc? Even if we assume that this other ethnic group came into being just a few years ago (which is impossible, but let's assume that), is it appropriate to make such comments here and isn't it a violation of ] and the supervised editing restrictions, imposed on Tigran by the arbcom? I would really be interested in an admin take on this. ] (]) 07:55, 16 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
Even Aynabend admitted above that the Azeri identity, if there was one prior to 1919 (there wasn't, but let's assume), "died in the Soviet era." So, even he admits that the "Azeri identity" has been nonesixtent. I merely repeat what academic sources, and Aynabend, have been saying about the state of the "Azerbaijani identity." The reason this discussion belongs here is that Grandmaster brought in a context dispute in here, which is inappropriate and against the Wiki rules. It is also relevant here that Grandmaster, Atabek, and Aynabend have continued making ethnicicty insulting comments against Armenians in talk pages (about NKR being "a non-existent, illegal state") despite being warned by Armenian users. Such defiance of other Misplaced Pages members, as well as calling them "ethnically prejudiced," is a clear violation of ], and the supervised editing restrictions of these users.--] (]) 12:58, 17 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:Fedayee, I honestly don't know what you are talking about. Instead of wasting your time here, you better start editing ] and ] articles at wiki and let the entire world know that they were "Baltic speaking" people and nation, had nothing to do with the modern Germans... Tigran, please read my posting more carefully, I said the that during Soviet times the identity of Azerbaijanis either "changed its form or died for 70 years". This is in itself a disputable question. Some Armenian ethnographers would try to prove the opposite that, during last 30 years of the Soviets, especially under H. Aliyev Azerbaijanis have united as a nation... If you need names, I can give you in private. | |||
Anyway, coming to the subject. Here is what the witness of those days in 1905, James D. Henry says about the Tatars: | |||
"The census returns of Baku town, Bailov Promontory, White Town, the villages of Kishli and Akhmedli, the oil field region of Bibi-Eibat, the Balakhani-Saboonchi-Ramani fields and Balakhani, Saboonchi Ramani and Zabrat villages put the population at 206,757*. Forty-four nationalities are registered. These include representatives of nearly all European nations, Central Asia, Asia Minor, Persia, Arabia, and even Abyssinia. The chief nationalities number thirteen, and each of these has more than 500 representatives. The first place is occupied by Russians, who number 74,254; '''then follow 53,827 local Tartars''', 34,259 Armenians, 18,572 Persians, 5,859 Jews, 5,025 Germans, '''4,157 Tartars from south-eastern Russia (known as Kazan Tartars)''', 3,857 Lezghins, 2,614 Georgians, 1,548 Poles, 617 Greeks, and 679 Mordovtzis. The other inhabitants - to the number of 1,646 - represent thirty-one nationalities. Eight of these Swedes, Ossetins, Letts, Bohemians, Slovaks, Frenchmen, Lithuanians, Englishmen, and Turks - have each over one hundred representatives. The remaining twenty-three nationalities account for less than 100 each, while seventeen are represented by less than 25 persons" | |||
* Twenty years ago the population of Baku was between 70,000 and 80,000. Source: Henry, J.D. Baku An Eventful History. With Many Illustrations And a Map. London 1905. pages 11-12 | |||
Now as you see, even a British engineer who wrote the world-known book about Baku in those days put a distinction between the local Tartars (or Tatars) and the ones who came from south-eastern Russia and identified them as Kazan Tartars. If in you opinion the Tatars who fought with the Armenians in 1905 were of the mixed ethnic origin of various Turkic people, then why there was a distinction emphasized in the book, two chapters of which refers to 1905 Armenian-Azeri clashes? Please don't tell me that you do not like all the Britts in the world. --] (]) 19:26, 17 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:Ulvi/Aynabend, the Prussians were NOT German. Before it was taken by the Teuronic Knights and the German assimilation of the group, the real Prussians were speaking a distinct language. You see you referred to the Prussians and now are referring to the assimilated German Prussia. | |||
:The comparison is actually more similar to the Armenian Patriarchate of Artsakh with the Albanians, the same way that the Germans declared lordship of Prussia. The Germans already had a distinct identity, just like if you compare the Patriarchate with when he was referring to himself as Albanian. The Armenians had a distinct identity. The German identity was prevailing and clearly defined much before the Ottonian dynasty. The Prussians were not the ancestors of the Germans, neither were they of old Prussia and its inhabitants, Germans. They have been assimilated by a group which already had a clearly defined identity, the Duchy. So again, you failed to explain any similarities between Tatars-Azerbaijanis and Prussian-Germans; both are unrelated in terms of ancestries. While Old Prussian might have had some influence on the Germans living in the area, the Germans were identified already centuries before the Teuronic Knights took over Prussia. | |||
:You see the NAZI abolished Prussia, even though it was symbolic at the time, of the ''Germanic Prussia'', and dismissed its old history and claimed it exclusively as German including the original inhabitants of Prussia, Baltic speaking people. You are using double standards… aren't you also basically overemphasising on the Caucasian Albanians on every Eastern region, including a large area recognized as being in the older Armenian lands? Why don't you use the same standard and consider the Caucasian Albanians as Armenians? Your comparison is not inaccurate, but even if it had been accurate, it does not support your thesis… at worst it contradicts it. | |||
:As for your quote, they were called Tartars, most of the Muslims living there were called Tartars, and I don't see how this supports your argument in any way. - ] (]) 21:36, 17 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
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*This discussion of national identity is fascinating but I don't see anything that is actionable under the terms of the editing restriction. We need to understand that what is "offensive" is often judged from different points of view, but ultimately some sort of "Average person" standard needs to apply. As an interested but uninvolved bystander, I don't find anything offensive in quoting a scholar as saying the Azeri people have a weak sense of national identity, or quoting a historian saying that the Azeri identity is a product of 20th century politics, although I acknowledge those views might anger or offend some Azeris. If we were to take action against every comment that could be interpreted as offensive by the most sensitive editor, all of you would have been banned long ago. Perhaps there is something more serious that I have missed in the above, very lengthy discussion. If so, please make a new, brief report with clear and obvious diffs of the problem. Thank you. ] 01:56, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
{{report bottom}} | |||
== Asgardian == | |||
I think ] violated his ] on the ] article (making two reverts in four days) and on the ] article. --] (]) 04:02, 13 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
: Not true. The user above, however, did make several blind reverts. I have not responded with still another revert, as this will only cause an edit war. Rather, I will explain the changes on his Talk Page and the relevant character Talk page. Thank you. | |||
] (]) 08:45, 13 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
*'''Admin response''' In the future please provide diffs of the alleged reversions so we don't have to hunt them down. On ], and are both reversions in the broad sense of the term, since they discard the majority of changes introduced by other editors and revert to a version that is substantially identical to the previous version in the diff. I'm not finding any reversions (as distinguished from normal collaborative editing) in the Quicksilver article. Many people assume that editors on restriction are allowed to edit an article only once a week, this is not true. A reversion is distinguished from an edit by discarding most or all of the intervening contributions without making an attempt to edit collaboratively. The edits I cite on the Vision article are reversions and this is a violation. Since this is the first reported violation I will issue a '''warning''' only, but it will be logged. ] 03:38, 18 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
* On 22 December 2007, Asgardian made an interim change re-installing "Earth-616" fan-insider jargon and then a second revert to reinstall an image that did not meet superherobox (SHB) criteria, replaced an image that did. The page that his two reverts affected was restored . --] (]) 17:00, 22 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
** '''Comment''' Looking at it, that really falls into Asgariand's ''first'' revert within a week. There should be a bit of leeway for his not being aware, or noting, that there was a different image available when he uploaded a new one. Just my observation though. - ] (]) 17:11, 22 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
**The net result of Asgardian's edits was to revert to the image used by Moshikal. That's only one revert in the last week, so no problem. ] 17:56, 22 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
== Rosencomet and Starwood related articles == | |||
{{report top|The caution is not enforceable. Make a new request to ArbCom to create an enforceable remedy. ] 02:20, 21 December 2007 (UTC)}} | |||
] has been violating the terms of the ]. The ]: "Rosencomet is cautioned to avoid aggressive editing of articles when there is a question of conflict of interest. If edit warring or other conflict arises, it may be best to limit editing to talk pages." | |||
This has actually been an ongoing problem since the end of the arbitration in March 2007. The central articles affected are: | |||
* ] | |||
* ] | |||
* ] | |||
* ] Autobiography concerns, ]. | |||
Rosencomet so he has a ] in editing all three of the non-autobio articles. | |||
:]: A section is marked with a laundry list tag . Rosencomet reverts without addressing the issue. On the talk page, Rosencomet is combatative and aggressively argumentative in his approach to the discussion. (This diff covers several consecutive edits by Rosencomet) | |||
:]: When asked for inline citations and integration of references into the body of the article , Rosencomet responds by adding a link to the Starwood website and removes the citation needed tag. Rosencomet's response on the talk page is again aggressively combatative I'd also like to note that Rosencomet has apparently been using Google's book search to add references to the article. In other words, if a book mentions Starwood in passing, he will put it in the references section. Many of these are clearly trivial mentions and add nothing of substance to the references beyond increasing the numbers. I believe this kind of empty bloating of references should be avoided in favour of refs primarily about the subject of the article. | |||
:]: ] issues are blatantly apparent here since, as noted above, Rosencomet is undoubtedly Mr. Rosenbaum. A look at the will show he has '''extensively''' edited this page. Most recently is this series of edits . Note, among other problems, his insertion of the Starwood website as a reference for information. On the talk page, Rosencomet refers to himself as "the subject" in an attempt to deflect the COI issues. | |||
All of this shows that, despite Arbcom admonitions, he still behaves as if WP core policies are only a matter of opinion and the normal Misplaced Pages rules don't apply to him. Over a year after these issues were brought to his attention in the strongest possible way and he still responds with hostility when policies are pointed out to him. (I also believe he is still creating articles that ] for his festivals and group but this was not specifically ruled on in the Arbcom case.) | |||
I tried to be brief with this but have obviously failed. Because I was the person who brought the arbitration against Rosencomet, I feel my judgment and ability to enforce the arbcom decision is limited. Even bringing the issue here caused me some hesitation but I think my concerns stand independent of my involvement in the Arbcom case. ]] 00:49, 16 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:Yep, he's getting aggressive. I checked in on some of the articles that were mentioned in the Arb, and his contribs, and attempted to address some of the problems. This is some of what {{user|Rosencomet}} did in response: Reversions, insertions of more rosencomet.com links, insertions in his autobio of links to forum posts he's made (calling them "articles") and reverting when they are removed, screaming edit summaries, accusations of stalking and attempts to find another contributor to edit on his behalf: Looking further back, we also see that since the Arbitration he has continued to add mentions of himself and his products (usually tapes he sells) to articles: . I think it is clear that, even after having it explained to him by Arbcom and numerous editors, Rosencomet does not seem to think that WP guidelines apply to him, or to the articles he works on (and he still seems to have trouble telling the difference between the two). After all this time on WP, he still responds to the efforts of other editors to apply basic standards to these articles as some sort of personal attack. - <font face="comic sans ms"><b>]</b> ]<font color="navy">♦</font>]</font> 02:33, 16 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:I decided to look into {{user|Pigman}}'s mention of {{user|Rosencomet}}, continuing to create ''"articles that ] for his festivals and group."'' On his user page, Rosencomet has recently added a list of articles he's created, and which he appears to still be editing. Looking through them I found that ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], and ] all include links to Starwood or Winterstar (the festivals Rosencomet runs), sometimes to his autobio, and usually also to rosencomet.com (which is often the only source cited in these generally unsourced articles). While ArbCom did not rule on the appropriateness of the links, those familiar with the festival, the artists, and the Neopagan milieu did, in this RfC: ]. Of the editors weighing in, the consensus was clearly that the internal and external links to Starwood, Winterstar, and other projects run by Jeff Rosenbaum were "a clear case of linkspam to a commercial site, and that the internal linkspam is as inappropriate as the external linkspam." Looking back over it, it looks like while a couple people were somewhat neutral, the only voice of clear support for Rosencomet's extensive linking to his projects belonged to the ] sock drawer, now indef-blocked by Arbcom. I think we have a definite problem here. And note, I did not go through his complete contribs, which, skimming the list, I know also includes articles with Starwood links. - <font face="comic sans ms"><b>]</b> ]<font color="navy">♦</font>]</font> 04:24, 16 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:: Since this was precisely the problem that got him to arbitration in the first place, I don't see how we can overlook it. Perhaps we need to go back to ArbCom and ask for a restriction, since his entire purpose for being on Misplaced Pages appears to be boosting his own interests. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 09:09, 17 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::The arbitration case was really about disruption and sockpuppetry on the part of a supporter and an opponent of Rosencomet. Rosencomet's own behavior (at the time) was mostly reasonable. Of course, his editing often involves conflicts of interest, but COI editing is not prohibited; editors are warned that COI editing can lead to bad behavior and are advised to listen to the advice of more experienced wikipedians on things like notability, linkspam, and the like. The question I have is, how has Rosencomet behaved when confronted with these points (and hopefully by editors other than Kathryn and Pigman, who have past issues with him)? Does he react abusively to removal of links or deletion nominations? has he attacked other editors who have pointed out problems with his edits? If this is largely a content dispute over the notability of topics he edits that he has an interest in, it seems that the normal content processes should be followed (Third opinion, request for comment, mediation) and only approach arbitration if his behavior in defense of his edits crosses the usual boundaries (incivility, edit warring, etc). ] 17:48, 17 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::Thatcher, I take your point about the central issues of the arb case. However I note that, except for three very minor edits by others, Rosencomet has been the sole maintainer of the ] article since the end of the Arbcom case. I think this is in no small part because people are adverse to enter the situation. The article has a number of obvious problems, from OR to "references" that merely mention Starwood briefly to rather blatant POV/puffery. It irks me to see obvious problems and feel I can't edit the article without being accused of attacking Rosencomet and/or Starwood. Similarly, the ] article is almost entirely maintained by Rosencomet, the subject of the article. I believe much of the reason he has not had conflicts is because he is mostly editing in Misplaced Pages backwaters, where his COI editing passes without notice. If you think that the situation warrants only normal editing and talk page exchanges unless or until a dispute comes up, I'm willing to do that. | |||
::::On his civility, if you look at one of the diffs Kathryn provided above, Rosencomet said Kathryn was "stalking" him. Near the end he says "...nor have I EVER touched anything you have written..." which shows he still has not progressed beyond an attitude of ] of one's contributions to Misplaced Pages. At the end, he says "Please AGF, and find something better to do than to stalk my work and place unconstructive tags." I may be wrong but I don't think Kathryn has been editing any of "his" articles since the arbitration until these very recent few edits. Hardly "stalking" behaviour. Still, perhaps it was premature to bring this here. Anyway, thank you for your input. It does help to gain some perspective. Cheers, ]] 20:34, 17 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::::Well, I am virtually the sole editor of ] and ] but that does not mean I am abusive toward other people who try to edit, it means no one else cares much. The scenario that I am concerned with is that (a) you or Kathryn or some other editor has concerns about the article and edits it to address those concerns, (b) Rosencomet disputes the edits, (c) discussion on the talk page, (d) request for comment or third opinion, (e) Rosencomet edit wars to maintain his version despite consensus of multiple outside editors and/or become uncivil and abusive in defending his preferred version. If you and Kathryn seem to be the only other people interested in Starwood and Rosenbaum, try to engage Rosencomet in discussion on the talk page about your concerns and proposed changes, and use the ] or ] processes to bring in outside views, and see how it goes from there. ] 20:45, 17 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::::Re: sole editorship: precisely. Good faith editing of articles should always be welcomed. Many Wikipedians shepherd and watch articles we are personally interested in but that doesn't mean we attack or are abusive to others who attempt to improve the articles in some way. I think part of the reason I brought this issue here was I envisioned exactly the scenario you outlined above. My frustration is that these articles have all been through this exact process already leading up to the arbitration. I find it rather a pain to think it needs to be repeated since I see little change in Rosencomet's attitude toward "his" articles. It's clear (to me at least) he sees any substantive change or tags to improve certain sections or aspects of the articles as attacks rather than a desire to improve them. I also believe other editors observe how pugnaciously he responds and they back away slowly from the situation as more trouble than it's worth. As I've said in the past, these are only event and organization articles, not issues around Israel-Palestine or abortion; it shouldn't be a massive struggle simply to shape them into good articles with solid sources. Cheers, ]] 22:05, 17 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:Looking at the diffs above there do appear to be problems with reference padding, self-sourcing, and adding links to lecture taps published by his own organization, as well as a failure to assume good faith on the part of his fellow editors (although he has not really been uncivil as such things go; I've seen much worse). As the prior decision was a non-binding "caution", you will need to bring this to the committee again. I suggest beginning with a user conduct RFC, discussing the issues of reference padding, self-sourcing, and adding links to tapes that he may profit from, as the most pressing of the current issues. Let it run for a couple of weeks and try to get more outside input, then once the new members of the Arbitration committee have been installed, you can try bringing a case if the RFC has not been satisfactory. (With the elections over but the new members not appointed, and no prior RFC in place, I do not think a case would be accepted at this time.) ] 04:20, 18 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::I've seen worse, too, but I don't think calling another editor a "stalker" for daring to edit "his" articles is particularly civil. As for RfCs, the issues are essentially the same (or worse) as when these two were done. I referred to the second one above (]) The first one, ]) showed even stronger consensus that he is ] and spamming for his projects. The outside statement in particular, endorsed by fourteen established editors, seven of whom are admins, stated: "''2. All the articles in question have links to ] and its website. Many of these links fall outside of ] Undue Weight, overstating the importance of a performer apperance at the starwood festival. As such these links can be considered a case of ]. The links have all been added by ] who is connect to the event so ] also applies.''" <sup>]</sup> I don't think it gets much clearer than that. | |||
::I'd also note that, while there is no evidence to support sockpuppetry on the part of Rosencomet himself, suddenly today after Rosencomet reverted Guy's removal of uncited lists, and I reinstated Guy's edit, another Ekajati sock showed up to start reverting. Rosencomet has never stopped defending the sockdrawer's actions, and I find it interesting that shortly after he started posting on talk pages calling me a stalker for editing an article in a normal manner, and suggesting Guy was "just looking for fights" and should also stay a away from the articles, the sockpuppets returned. Personally, I don't think it's a coincidence. | |||
::In this diff, Rosencomet states his understanding of the ArbCom decision: "''This is obviously not about the data, but a problem she has with me about such issues as POV and COI, issues that were put to bed long ago (I thought) with the assurance that I was free to edit as long as I did not do so "aggressivly" or edit war''". So, it looks to me like he truly believes the COI issues do not apply to him as long as he doesn't violate 3RR. Or something. I have to wonder if he's ever read any of the policies we have repeatedly pointed out to him. - <font face="comic sans ms"><b>]</b> ]<font color="navy">♦</font>]</font> 05:08, 18 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::Whatever. The caution from the previous case is unenforceable. ] 05:10, 18 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::Ah. Well. I see your point. The caution is relatively nonspecific and doesn't provide penalties. However, I admit disappointment that you're essentially saying the Arbitration was pointless in the end. Sadly, ]] 06:05, 18 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::::I can not find any ] requests for comment. The difference between an article RFC and a user RFC is that an article RFC is used to attract wider attention to a contentious issue, while a User conduct RFC is used to attract wider attention to a users' behavior. Giving several examples of problematic behavior as noted here, and asking for comments from uninvolved editors, may be able to demonstrate to Rosencomet how his editing is sometimes not acceptable; alternatively it may demonstrate to Arbcom that his conduct as a use falls outside Misplaced Pages norms. ] 19:17, 18 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::::: The article RfCs all focused on Rosencomet's self-promotion toa large extent; it may be moot since he's admitted allowing others to use his account. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 23:45, 18 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
=== Very specific COI violations === | |||
I filed a slightly different version of the paragraph below over on ] ] when it seemed unlikely that this discussion would bear fruit. ] suggested keeping discussion together here so I'm reposting it. Please look at the links, particularly the two showing identical pictures of Jeff Rosenbaum, who '''personally''' sells items from the Starwood Store over the phone. This is a succinct and clear statement on the COI issues. There are several new links but I apologize in advance for any redundancies to the discussion here. | |||
* {{article|Jeff Rosenbaum}} | |||
* {{article|Association for Consciousness Exploration}} | |||
* {{article|Starwood Festival}} | |||
* {{article|WinterStar Symposium}} | |||
It is reasonably certain that {{User|Rosencomet}} is Jeff Rosenbaum (see Arbcom finding ]), the Executive Director of the Association for Consciousness Exploration, LLC (ACE). Despite an Arbcom caution (]), he has extensively edited these articles (please see the histories of the articles.) I interpret these extensive revisions as "aggressive" editing as well as an autobio violation on the Jeff Rosenbaum article. Additionally, his editing and lack of posting of a COI notice on his user page mean that '''many''' more articles besides these four are affected. See of his userpage for a sizable (but possibly incomplete) listing. If any doubt exists about his COI, see with Mr. Rosenbaum's photo and compare it to this . Note the caption saying Mr. Rosenbaum sells the items personally. (As an aside, I found the offered on Starwood's Cafe Press store to be ''very'' attractive. And comfortable too.) As to why this hasn't been brought here before: This noticeboard (]) didn't exist when I first brought the Arbcom case against Rosencomet in Dec. 2006 and I was burned out in the aftermath of the relatively toothless "caution" of Rosencomet by Arbcom in March, 2007. These issues have been discussed with Rosencomet '''''extensively''''' over the last 16 months. Read his talk page for a sampling of efforts by a large number of Wikipedians. Cheers, ]] 18:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC) ('''Addendum''': I've just noticed Rosencomet's talk page has been ] so that is a better example of discussions with him. ]] 19:10, 20 December 2007 (UTC)) | |||
{{report bottom}} | |||
== Ferrylodge == | |||
The applicable case is ] and R2.1. The exact ruling is a little confusing, which resulted in ]. The ruling says that Ferrylodge is "restricted", but the clarification said that FL "is not under any general ban". This has caused FL to start editing at the topics mentioned in the ArbCom remedies (abortion and pregnancy). I'm still a little confused on the nature of the ArbCom ruling, but from what I gather, they basically said "FL is unblocked, and unrestricted in his editing, but if he is disruptive on two specific topics (interpreted broadly) uninvolved admins have the added ability to impose an article ban on FL, on an article by article, case by case level." | |||
Moving on, since FL has been back, he has, to my knowledge, been warned twice about civility. Once by ] , and once by ] . Needless to say, someone coming out of a community ban should not need to be warned about civility. Not once, and definitely not twice. | |||
Next, FL has begun editing topics related to abortion, specifically ] and ]. I am currently in a content dispute with FL, and I am here to ask an uninvolved admin to ban him from the article, per the ArbCom ruling. I urge you to please read the talk page starting from ]. I do not believe FL can discuss content, not editors. He has made this discussion personal multiple times. In fact, he posted a personal message to me on the page (see the "Editorializing" heading), which I kindly asked him to move to my talk page (which he refused). I was trying hard to work with FL, really hard. But it is incredibly hard to stay on topic and stick to content, when the other party is making things personal, on an uncivil level. I've reached the point where I do not feel I can discuss this further with FL, and I realized I shouldn't even be in this situation. FL has been uncivil in this talk page discussion. He has been warned twice for civility issues since he has come back. The article in question is on a topic covered by the ArbCom enforcement. So I ask an uninvolved admin to review this case and possibly ban him from Roe v. Wade. | |||
Severa has shown similar concerns that an uninvolved admin may want to considered as well, see . -] </sup>]] 19:20, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:Informational: Applicable text of the remedy reads "''Any uninvolved administrator may ban Ferrylodge from any article which relates to pregnancy or abortion, interpreted broadly, which they disrupt by inappropriate editing.''" | |||
:Question: Is the editing Ferrylodge has done on these topics "inappropriate"? I feel this needs to be shown before any block/article ban takes place. Mahalo. --] 19:37, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::Although I was not informed about this request by Andrew c (or about Severa's comment to which he links), I hope it won't be inappropriate to respond here briefly. | |||
::I hope that people reviewing this matter will keep in mind : | |||
:::'''''"Considering how extremely helpful, patient and civil I found Ferrylodge to be on restoring ] to featured status, and that I couldn't decipher his POV during ], I hope post-ArbCom hounding of Ferrylodge doesn't become an issue."''''' | |||
::Andrew c is correct that we are having a disagreement at a talk page. However, the ArbCom decision <s>involves edits to ''articles'' rather than talk pages: "Any uninvolved administrator may ban Ferrylodge from any article which relates to pregnancy or abortion, interpreted broadly, which they disrupt by inappropriate editing." Nor does it</s> does not involve the articles where Evil Spartan and Luke interacted with me. | |||
::I hope admins and others will feel free to visit the ''Roe v. Wade'' talk page that Andrew c mentions, <s>not to decide whether I should be banned (the ArbCom decision does not authorize banning for talk page comments), but merely</s> to see whether I was uncivil as Andrew c contends. I did not accuse him of "bias," or of "editorializing," or of trying to "jab" me, or of trying to insert "personal opinion" into the article. Those were things he said to me. All I did was deny it.] (]) 19:41, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::Well, the "interpreted broadly" clause might mean that talk pages ''are'' indeed included. But the fact remains that it needs to be shown that you are editing inappropriately. --] 19:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::I suppose that's possible, though that isn't how I read the decision. If the decision does include talk pages as well as articles, then I'd like some clarification on that point. In any event, I was not disruptively editing the talk page in question. Incidentally, although I don't think the article where Luke and I interacted is at all relevant here, he also .] (]) 19:56, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::(ec)Not going to comment on Ferrylodge's recent conduct on the two articles in question, but just noting that part of the reason why Ferrylodge was brought to CSN was because of his conduct on talk pages and it seems that is what is in question here, not his actual article editing. --] <sup>]</sup> 20:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::::Thanks for your comment Bobblehead. The CSN has been abolished, and the complete ban on me that the CSN imposed has been overturned. So, why is the CSN relevant here? Also, KillerChihuahua brought her complaint at the CSN for alleged edit-warring in articles, not in talk pages.] (]) 20:05, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::::Heh. Sorry, should have been clearer and expanded my wording to include the evidence in arbcom. I mentioned CSN because that was the initial place that your conduct was brought up in a manner that requested some sort of "punishment". It should also be pointed out that the evidence that the arbcom chose to use in their Finding of Fact about you having a history of disruptive editing in pregnancy and abortion articles, but productive editing in other areas includes your conduct on the talk pages.--] <sup>]</sup> 20:19, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Neither the findings of fact nor the decision mentioned anything about talk pages.] (]) 20:25, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Geez... I've gone ahead and sought more clarification from the arbitration committee. Drop this until we hear back? --] 20:27, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
To answer the question posed by Ali'i: Yes. On the article '']'', Ferrylodge inserted commentary on a particular opinion poll, which he had previously done on several abortion-related articles beginning in January 2007. The recent pursuit of a fetal illustration at ], while not an example of an edit made to an article itself, shows further that Ferrylodge has not let old matters drop with regard to articles on abortion. Ferrylodge added just such an image to the article Abortion in September, resulting in a lot of complication, as documented . The point is that there are a 2 million articles to edit on Misplaced Pages and just as many edits which could be pursued on those articles related to pregnancy and abortion. But, even after the ArbCom decision, Ferrylodge is still opting to concentrate on the same narrow range of things as before (the Harris poll on ''Roe'' and fetus pictures). It's this fact which I consider worthy of examination. -<font color="006400">S</font><font color="696969">e</font><font color="006400">v</font><font color="696969">e</font><font color="006400">r</font><font color="696969">a</font> (<small>]</small>) 20:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:As far as I can tell, Severa is citing only two recent diffs, and all the others are from before the ArbCom proceedings. is the first of those two recent diffs, in which I updated poll results at the ''Roe v. Wade'' article (presumably Severa does not object to that updating), and in which I mentioned that "the poll question quoted above asked about only 'part' of the decision." That statement is factually correct, and is fully supported by the text of the poll question itself. Nevertheless, Andrew c objected to that factual statement, and the matter is currently under discussion at the ''Roe v. Wade'' talk page. I did not reinsert that factual statement after Andrew c removed it. Severa's second diff is . This is what I said at the ] talk page, that Severa finds so offensive: | |||
::"I hope that some thought will be given to including a non-shock image of a typical fetus ''before'' it is aborted, so that the image is ''not'' a shock image. Susan Faludi, in her book 'The Undeclared War Against American Women' (1991) : 'The antiabortion iconography in the last decade featured the fetus but never the mother.' In contrast, the present article now features iconography of the mother but not of the fetus, and I think this situation needs some balancing." | |||
:Frankly, I do not understand how there is anything inappropriate about what I said at the abortion talk page. Am I to understand that it is forbidden for me to even mention that pictures of a fetus exist?] (]) 20:49, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::I never said I found anything "offensive" about the particularities of what you had said so please refrain from reading that into my comment. What I do find questionable is that you seem to have returned to abortion-related articles just to pick up on old battles instead of letting sleeping dogs lie. And, while we're on the topic, was it really necessary to give to Y? Sometimes the best response is none. -<font color="006400">S</font><font color="696969">e</font><font color="006400">v</font><font color="696969">e</font><font color="006400">r</font><font color="696969">a</font> (<small>]</small>) 21:08, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::Severa, if you did not find my edits to be offensive or disruptive, then please let's discuss them elsewhere. Thanks.] (]) 21:17, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::Your response to my request that you not present my words out of context is to do so to an even greater degree. Above, you stated, "''This is what I said at the abortion talk page, that Severa finds so offensive''," and then provided a quotation. I responded to clarify that I found nothing "offensive" about what you'd said specifically — I don't agree with the fetus picture suggestion, but that doesn't mean I'm offended by it. What I do object to is the apparent effort to reopen disputes over the Harris poll and fetus pictures months after they've closed. I believe that I was quite clear about the nature my objection in the post above so I am not sure from where you have inferred that I "''d not find edits to be...disruptive.''" -<font color="006400">S</font><font color="696969">e</font><font color="006400">v</font><font color="696969">e</font><font color="006400">r</font><font color="696969">a</font> (<small>]</small>) 21:43, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::::Severa, if you found my comment to be disruptive but not offensive, then that's fine. I'm not sure I understand the distinction, but let's not quibble. All I did was mention the issue of photos to some new editors at the abortion article who have never even thought about it before. I didn't argue back and forth, and I didn't edit the abortion article. If you think it's disruptive for me to not let sleeping dogs lie, do you also think it might possibly be disruptive for you to not relent in your criticism of me?] (]) 21:49, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
Clarification that article talk pages are covered by the ArbCom decision in my case, although I may be given "more freedom on talk pages." In any event, as explained above, I was not being disruptive at the talk page in question.] (]) 20:59, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::::It has now become clear that Ferrylodge is editing the '']'' article in an attitude that is having a derogatory and negative effect on the article, and by extension Misplaced Pages as a whole. In my capacity as a neutral, uninvolved administrator, and in accordance with the remedy outlined ], I instigate a ban on Ferrylodge from that article for disruptive editing: he simply is harming this article. ] 21:57, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
Anthony, your notice says: | |||
:"The user specified is on probation and has edited this article inappropriately. The user is not prevented from discussing or proposing changes on this talk page. This ban must be registered on the administrators noticeboard. If you disagree with this ban, please discuss it with the administrator who imposed it or on the noticeboard. At the end of the ban, anyone may remove this notice." | |||
May I ask what article edit I made that you deem inappropriate? Was it an article edit or a talk page edit? This information would certainly help me to improve. Thanks.] (]) 22:00, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::My main motivation was the entire atmosphere around your editing, over both a recent and long period of time. Despite an Arbitration Committee ruling against you, you seem to have proceeded in pretty much the same manner. edit was in some ways the final straw: you are editing in a negative manner, and I cannot stand by and allow it to happen any more. Ferrylodge, please edit constructively: further patience is unlikely to be sent your way, if this poor standard of editing continues. ] 22:27, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::Anthony, thanks for your explanation. I assume that the ArbCom did not want me banned from any article based on activities predating the ArbCom decision, so I appreciate your providing me with an example of a recent article edit. May I ask, what is it about edit that you find objectionable? Was it the fact that I updated out-of-date poll results? Or was it the fact that I quoted from the poll question? Do you realize that, after I quoted from the poll question, and after that quote was deleted, I did not attempt to reinsert it? There was no edit-warring whatsoever.] (]) 22:32, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:(edit conflict) Request for clarification... how exactly is that edit you provided "editing in a negative manner"? Ferrylodge was trying to update the polls, and clarify the context. How is that negative? You'll have to forgive me if I miss how it is. Mahalo, AGK. --] 22:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:(] mark two) First off, I must admit I'm impressed by the way you are conducting yourself around this: most users who come out of AC cases in this way are rather difficult to deal with. Secondly, I chose that edit as an example: having looked through recent contributions by Ferrylodge in that area, it was and is clear to me that Ferrylodge is not editing there in a positive manner, hence my action. Ferrylodge, are you absolutely positive you can edit constructively in that area? ] 22:37, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::Anthony, I promise I'll do my best. I've only tried to make the article better. It's a contentious topic, so there are bound to be disgreements at the talk page, but I promise I'll not make unconstructive edits to the article.] (]) 22:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::No offense AGK, but if you look at the history of Roe v. Wade, you'd see that Ferrylodge has probably done more to help the article than any other one person. His editing has hardly been "derogatory and negative". Even since his arbitration committee decision, he has contributed positively. I request that you look at the history page of Roe v. Wade and look at more edits that haven't been brought up here. I think Ferrylodge has done exceptional work in this area, and is in the midst of an ever-lasting content dispute (it's a bout abortion... of course there is going to be debate). Mahalo. --] 22:42, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::When I reviewed the history, I picked up exactly the opposite. However, I have been impressed by FL's handling of the situation, so I've reversed the ban ''for the moment''. Having said that, Ferrylodge, I would like to discuss the matter with you, some time; I'm going off-line in a moment, but I'll try and catch up with you tomorrow (talk page, email or IRC?) ] 22:50, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::::Thanks Anthony. I've never used IRC, and don't know how to. Email would be good.] (]) 22:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
First, I have no prior involvement in this case whatsoever, so I'm neutral, but it seems to me that Ferrylodge's continued reinserting of the same material (the poll for example) is a continuation of prior behavior. But it's also true that this Roe v. Wade article is always a hot one. As FL and AGK are going to discuss it, let's hope something works out.<span style="font-family: verdana;"> — ] • ] • </span> 22:54, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:Rlevse, I'll do my best to minimize controversy here, and to work with Anthony, and to make only constructive edits. Regarding "the poll" that you mention, there are two polls involved here: a Harris poll that has been in the article for a very long time and that I have therefore not had any occasion to reinsert, and also an LA Times poll that was included during the featured article review but subsequently removed. At the talk page, I did urge reinsertion of the LA Times poll, but I never actually reinserted it into the article because there was no consensus. The reason why I urged reinsertion is because the article right now has Harris poll results that cover the first trimester, but the article omits poll results for the second trimester, which is not a balanced presentation (the LA Times poll covered the second trimester). Anyway, I hope that kind of explains the polls. I will not reinsert that stuff without consensus to do so. Cheers.] (]) 23:11, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
]]-] </sup>]] 00:12, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:Thanks for your good wishes, Andrew c. Vice versa, of course. Out of sympathy for Thatcher131, I'll let speak for themselves.] (]) 23:36, 20 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:: ]] -<font color="006400">S</font><font color="696969">e</font><font color="006400">v</font><font color="696969">e</font><font color="006400">r</font><font color="696969">a</font> (<small>]</small>) 01:28, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
For what it's worth, the warning I issued at ] was caused by uncivil exchanges entirely unrelated to abortion. In fact, two other users were warned at the same time. I had previously asked if such activity could fall under the language of the ArbCom, but User:Crockspot and others indicated that editing on non-abortion aspects of Romney could not run afoul of his editing restriction. I agree. The restriction is not a topic ban, but is instead a prohibition on: (1) editing disruptively (2) on ''abortion topics''. Neither of the warnings satisfy these conditions, so it should be shown that Ferrylodge is currently editing disruptively on abortion topics. A mere disagreement is not disruptive. ] '']'' 04:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:'''Note from someone being quoted above''' - I, like Luke, did indeed leave a message for FL. However, this message was intended as a means for ''two'' users in a dispute, and banning FL from the article makes little sense. In fact, I have found FL's contributions to the Mitt Romney article to be helpful, and I worry (with all due respect, Andrew c), that banning him from the article is just a way of getting a hand-up in an edit dispute, just as I believe his last ban was. I do not believe that "interpreted broadly" should by any means mean "any politics articles at all". ] (]) 04:59, 22 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
==MartinPhi poisoning the well== | |||
Is it appropriate for MartinPhi to come into a conflict with which he admits he is not involved and ] against me? Here is the relevant diff: . ] (]) 18:54, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:What are the relevant Arbitration cases? ] 19:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::The relevant case is ]. I was involved in that case, so take this for what it's worth: but following ScienceApologist around to various talk pages <s>, by tracking his contrib history,</s> specifically to bring up the Arbitration case seems like borderline Wikistalking and probably violates MartinPhi's restriction against disruptive behavior. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 19:41, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
No, it is well known that Wiki is very, very hard to follow. If ScienceApologist is (to use the current word) poisoning the Misplaced Pages experience for new or newish users, or simply users who are unfamiliar with him, it is quite ok -only ethical- to let them know that he is under sanction probably for doing exactly what he's doing there. They deserve to know that, and how else can they find out? If the sanction does not apply to the case, then it does him no harm. If it does, then the sanction should be applied, because the newish users have a right to defend themselves. Otherwise, they are in the position of being bullied by a highly aggressive and highly experienced user, without recourse. Far from being disruptive, this is merely a step toward ArbCom enforcement. Also, I was not wikistalking- I watch the article, and saw that SA was giving other users a hard time -whether justifiably, I don't know. | |||
In point of fact, one of my first experiences with being attacked on Wiki was by ScienceApologist, when I was just in the position I guess they are- a newish user, unable to find my way around very well at all. Boy, was that a negative experience. I wouldn't want anyone else to have to go through that. They deserve the help. | |||
ScienceApologist admits above that it is in fact a ''conflict'' (rather than a debate, for instance) and says that I am not involved. I'm involved in WP, and made a contribution as an outside party, giving a bit of highly relevant context as a more experienced user. ——''']'''</span> ] Ψ ]<span style="color:#ffffff;">——</span> 21:20, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:Your comments seek to position yourself as an altruistic "outside party" simply "providing context" for a new user. However, the title of the relevant ArbCom case attests to a long-standing conflict between yourself and ScienceApologist. Furthermore, the "newish" user in question has been on-wiki since , predating all of us. It would be advisable not to track ScienceApologist and insert yourself into discussions he's having; doing so is virtually guaranteed to be counterproductive given the deep historical antagonism between the two of you. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 21:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::Perhaps. I will consider your advice. When I see IP users I assume they are new, though that isn't always true. But also consider that it does him absolutely no harm in the case that he is not violating the terms of his probabtion. | |||
::Also, I don't track him. I just watch that article. ——''']'''</span> ] Ψ ]<span style="color:#ffffff;">——</span> 22:09, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::* Per that ruling, Martinphi, you may be banned from any article or talk page you disrupt. That was in my view a disruptive edit, pouring petrol on the flames and in the process bolstering someone who is advancing a fringe view and impeding SA's attempts to help people there understand sourcing, verifiability and neutrality policies. It's hard to see what intent there was other than undermining SA, which is borderline harassment. It may well be that SA's style is brusque, but your intervention has consistently failed to do anything to improve that, and he's never going to accept you asn an honest broker, so I strongly suggest you butt out of that dispute. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 22:16, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
Let's not forget that SA is under restrictions too...These two have been to arbcom already and a quick look makes me think this is just a rehash of old issues.<span style="font-family: verdana;"> — ] • ] • </span> 22:28, 21 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
*Martinphi, you jumped in to a talk page dispute where you have never edited before in order to poke ScienceApologist with a stick. Don't do it again. ScienceApologist is under restriction that he may be banned from a page or pages for being uncivil, making personal attacks, and assuming bad faith about another editor. I don't see that in his discussion with the IP editor. In any case, the proper response, if you see such behavior, is to report it rather than make it worse. I repeat, don't do it again. ] 01:47, 22 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
==SPA and ArbCom== | |||
This user is an SPA for an article which was subject to ArbCom (whose resultant decision prohibited SPA's) ] ] (]) 14:55, 22 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:Single purpose accounts may be banned for making disruptive edits. Please provide diffs of such edits. (There appears to be no restriction on SPAs unless they are disruptive. ] 17:58, 22 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:: Some whitewashing, not a good sign, and frankly I've yet to see an SPA there that was not disruptive. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 21:11, 22 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
None of my edits have been disruptive, feel free to check my history with regard to that article. I have actually recently restored sourced and valid information to the page that was removed by another user in an attempt to whitewash the article (with that user violating the 1RR they were placed under by another admin. for edit waring on that particular article with another editor). Anyway, there is something terribly suspicious regarding the original editor that lodged the request here. They have one edit to their name and it is to this board to complain about other editors? Smells like a sock to me. ] (]) 10:45, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:I think it's also necessary to discuss inappropriate actions that appear to have been taken against editors listed at the bottom of that arbitration page under "Logs of Blocks and Bans". Nearly all of the editors had general, indefinite bans placed on them for being SPA's, while the "Remedies" and "Enforcement" sections of the Request for Arbitration do not allow for that. According to the enforcement section "Page bans shall be enforced by brief blocks of up to a week for repeated violations. After five such blocks, the maximum block length increases to a year." Clearly neither the Remedies (which only discussed bans from the article in question and it's related content '''NOT''' all of Misplaced Pages as what happens with an indefinite, general block) nor the Enforcement criteria were followed in sanctioning those editors. Something really needs to be done about that. ] (]) 11:18, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:: I consider your edits disruptive - in fact, I consider virtually all edits to that article by people with no significant history outside that article to be disruptive. It has been nothing but a battleground for as long as I can remember, and the very last thing we need is more people joining the battle without actually contributing to the encyclopaedia. I don't think much of your calling my edits "vandalism" either. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 11:33, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
I didn't call your edits vandalism, I considered those of the editor that removed sourced and valid information from the article "vandalism" (which can easily been seen in the articles edit history). Your assertion that my edits are "disruptive" is meaningless as I doubt any rational administrator will agree with you. ] (]) 11:40, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
* I am troubled by your edits. Pretty much the most notable thing about that college, the source of most of its UK coverage and the whole source of its discussion in numerous venues, is the fact that the GMC specifically cites it as a cause of their removal of registration from a doctor, and setting up a list of unrecognised institutions. Causing the ] to strike a doctor off and change its practices is a pretty big deal, to the point that it belongs in the lead of this article on the UK entity. Your reaction to this was to revert, and your reaction to edits by another editor is also to revert - you are demonstrating ] problems, and I would say that your edits to that article are therefore disruptive. The solution is pretty simple: leave it alone and edit some other articles. The restriction only applies to ]. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 12:20, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
I am troubled by your edits as well. Your edits show you are obviously trying to push your POV on this article and are refusing to hash it out on the talk page. Just because you feel something is notable does not mean it is so. If you read the article from the GMC closely you will see that the GMC never said they setup the list in response to St. Christopher's, there is your own synthesis and extrapolation of the information in the article. I did no revert the non-redundant information that you included, it was moved to the media section where it belongs. Your decision that my edits are disruptive is inappropriate when you are involved in editing the article yourself and are pushing a particular agenda. A neutral administrator needs to determine if my edits are disruptive. I will not accept your decision in this matter because you have a pre-existing conflict of interest. ] (]) 12:25, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
: ] has been blocked for 24hrs for disruptive behaviour on ]. Note that Arbcom didnt just say '''disruptive edits''' - even good edits by an SPA, when done in a disruptive fashion, are sufficient to result in a block and banning if required. ] (]) 12:39, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:: Thanks for that; as a result I have finally managed to get an unconflicted edit to more fully reference the content. It's not every medical college that can claim to have changed GMC policy, after all. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 12:53, 23 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
==Request for Clarification for ]== | |||
This user, who was known as ] was subject to ]. Although that ruling is old (2004), it has relevance to his current behavior at ] and ]. Here are some specific behavior issues: | |||
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OK, I could go on, and this is a holiday, so I'd rather not be spending hours finding everything just to make a point. What are our choices? ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 17:37, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:It appears that the remedies in the earlier arbitration case expired three years ago (although it may still be relevant as background). Therefore, any problems with this editor should be pursued through usual ] methods, culminating if necessary in a new request for arbitration. You can also take the situation to ] if you believe there is an issue warranting administrator attention. ] (]) 19:20, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::I assume that you know more about the process than I. However, several admins, in private discussions with them, recommended this route, since the ruling does not go "sour" after a certain amount of time. Gohde/Mr. Natural Health, being one in the same person, is returning to their old ways. Does that not mean something? And so we're supposed to waste the community's time in going through the whole long process of ANI, RfC, RfArb, etc. etc. etc. Meanwhile, this vile editor continues along his merry way, screwing up the project. I personally don't get it. We spend more time protecting POV warriors than building the project. People like this game the system, using pseudo-legal methods to stay their executions. It's making me less and less and less and less civil about these types of editors. But thanks for your opinion. I know you mean well, but the bureaucracy of this project is no fun. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 19:27, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::For what it's worth, this was one of the first (if not the very first) arbitration cases ever. Most arbitration remedies nowadays are more open-ended. Leaving this here for other thoughts and comments. ] (]) 19:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::That's telling. Gohde was involved with the very first ruling. It figures. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 19:34, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
An additional issue is whether John Gohde is even allowed to edit at all at the present time. A condition for him to return may remain unfulfilled, IOW he shouldn't have been unbanned in the first place and should be rebanned. | |||
A condition of his ] was : | |||
* 4.1) ] must read and acknowledge he has read ] and ] and write 200 words each on the implications of having custodians on Misplaced Pages and on the implications of allowing personal attacks on Misplaced Pages before being allowed to edit Misplaced Pages again. | |||
I have politely requested that he for fulfillment of this condition, but he has refused and . This is not a good faith action, and definitely not collaborative. | |||
Unless he provides proof of fulfillment, he should immediately be returned to limbo. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 19:38, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:That's a second case that I was not aware of when I wrote my comments above (it is not cited in the original comment from OrangeMarlin). Based on the second case, the "personal attack parole" remains in place at this time. Any alleged violations should be reported to ]. On the other hand, speaking solely for myself, I don't think I would have much of an appetite for enforcing a "write 200 words" type of remedy if I were the administrator at AE. ] (]) 19:51, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::I wish it were easier to find these things. Thank you Fyslee for bringing up the next RfAr. Are there more? ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 20:10, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::] should be a list of all the cases ever decided, and one can do a search for the name of an editor. ] (]) 21:40, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::: Here is his Finding things on him isn't always easy since he constantly engages in revisionism of his editing, and his user page contains hidden comments for his own use. This revisionism even includes improperly changing his article talk page edits, personal attacks, demands, and ownership comments. He simply changes them and thus makes others users' replies seem improper. Instead he should <s>strike them</s> and add a comment so there is no question about what has happened, who did it, and when. Now that he has again been getting in hot water he has begun (one example) he has made. | |||
I have had almost no edit contact with ]. So, I am at a total lost as to what motivated Orangemarlin to revert two of my edits and file this request for a clarafication on Christmas day. I suspect it has something to do with his partisian point of view on CAM. But, I can point out several instances of a behavior issue with this editor: | |||
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-- ] (]) 21:42, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
*'''Response''' Edit warring and incivility at ]. Technically, even if the one-year attack parole at ] only took effect after the one year ban expired, the parole expired on 30 April 2007. And John only has one recent block. However, as a matter of common sense, if an editor is sanctioned for poor behavior twice and continues, taking new action should not require clearing an impossibly high bar. '''Blocked for 48 hours''' and recommend filing a new Request for Arbitration if the behavior continues. ] 22:39, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
**Excellent action. Hopefully, he gets the point, but I don't believe that will happen. I'm preparing the RfAr as we speak. Let me respond to the above attack on me, just in case someone actually reads this in the future. I watch numerous Alternative Medicine articles, so I would invariably run across Gohde. I asked for clarification on christmas, since it's a non-holiday to Jews like myself. But what is completely laughable is his accusation of a personal attack on the third diff above. He asked for why I wanted the tags, and I stated so. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 23:11, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
I was asked to review this request. He has been using "vandalism" in reference to ] edits, together with numerous ] etc. I'm afraid John has shown no insight into his block, compares it to , and is repeating much of his behaviour from 2004 that got him a ban. His main ''bête noire'' from that time (]) has left Misplaced Pages, but in the few weeks John has been back he's managed to make a whole string of enemies. I have not engaged with him at all, but I am merely observing that a 48-hour block may not reform this editor into healthy editing. ] | ] 07:47, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
: If anyone wants to find good examples of John Gohde's personal attacks and other parole violations, just use the links he posts as examples of personal attacks by other users. They inevitably show that he is the attacking party. His own talk page's history makes an interesting study in the deletion of warnings and good advice, even ridiculing admins when they warn him. This is entirely consistent with <u>'''his stated opinion of admins as "mentally ill individual"'''</u>: ''"The only picture that I get of an Admin at Misplaced Pages is that of a mentally ill individual. In my humble opinion, you cannot have a rational conversation or any kind of a rational exchange of ideas with the mentally ill."'' | |||
: Anyone who is in doubt about <u>'''his purpose here'''</u> can read his website description of Misplaced Pages ''"Try to promote any subject matter on Misplaced Pages and you will quickly get the attention of at least one of these mentally ill admins. I promoted Alternative Medicine all too well."'' ''"I actually accomplished what I had originally intended to do at Misplaced Pages, on day one, before I even set up a user name. But, I was so quickly attacked by hordes of Wikipedians so bent on destroying what I had edited that I decided to stick around a whole lot longer. One thing lead to another, and I ended up promoting alternative medicine in general."'' He isn't here to write in an NPOV manner, but to "promote alternative medicine." '''Advocacy''' is forbidden here. It's rather odd that he accuses others of being "partisan", when he himself is probably one of the most "partisan" editors at Misplaced Pages and repeatedly reveals ] sentiments as part of his attacks on other editors. Needless to say an awful lot of diffs will be forthcoming if this ends up in an ArbCom. | |||
: Speaking of an ArbCom, I believe it is unnecessary in this case as there are enough issues already on the table to justify a community ban. An ArbCom will only provide him with an even larger soapbox and will defeat the purpose of dispute resolution, which is to avoid disruption of Misplaced Pages. If this were a doubtful situation, then an ArbCom would be in order, but it's not doubtful at all. It would be an enormous disruption of Misplaced Pages and waste of time to go there. Please just be courageous, act on the evidence, and end this miserable situation in an expeditious manner, IOW short and quick. No one but those who deserve a similar fate will complain. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 08:39, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::OK, comparing himself to a woman who was raped and received lashes is just disgusting. This editor needs to be banned permanently along with his numerous socks. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 17:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
==Request for Clarification for ]== | |||
In ], the following decision was made by the Arbitration committee: | |||
<blockquote>2.1) {{userlinks|Ferrylodge}} is subject to an editing restriction indefinitely. Any uninvolved administrator may ban Ferrylodge from any article which relates to pregnancy or abortion, interpreted broadly, which they disrupt by inappropriate editing. | |||
:''Passed 6 to 1 at 23:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC)</blockquote> | |||
If I might interpret broadly, Ferrylodge is violating this agreement on the article ], which definitely relates to pregnancy and abortion. Here are some of the most abusive edits: | |||
*. These images are not medically oriented, and are used by Pro-Lifers to show the fetus as something more than a collection of cells. (Note well, of all of my edits, you will find no indication of my POV on abortion, since I keep my viewpoint very private.) | |||
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He should be blocked again. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 18:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:I see a pretty basic discussion about the inclusion of images that is progressing in the correct manner. Yes, the edit war would have best been avoided but I wouldn't class this as "disrupt by inappropriate editing" and therefore wouldn't agree with a block. ] ] 18:42, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::Go with the wording, "interpreted broadly". He was disruptive even without interpretation. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 18:56, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::The "interpreted broadly" clause refers to whether an article "relates to pregnancy or abortion", not to the disruption. ] ] 20:04, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::Valid point, but it doesn't mean he should get away with disruptions of articles. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 20:08, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
* The onus is on the editor seeking to include disputed content, to achieve consensus for its inclusion. Ferrylodge, who has an extremely strong POV, long-standing issues with POV-pushing and edit-warring, is aggressively pushing for disputed content that supports his POV. I would say this is pretty unambiguous. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 20:56, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::Guy, if I may ask: where was I pushing to "include disputed content"? I thought I was seeking to restore longstanding content that was removed without consensus, and which has since been . As far as I know, I was not seeking to include any new content at all.] (]) 23:31, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::: In the diffs cited you were edit-warring over disputed content. You are not allowed to do that, per the arbitration restriction. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 23:34, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::As I said, the images have been in the article for many months. Since when is the "onus" on an editor who is seeking to restore stable, well-sourced, longstanding content that was removed without discussion or consensus?] (]) 23:37, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::::{{user|IronAngelAlice}} has a history of POV pushing of her own, for example see and is virtually a SPA on feminist topics. I see no reason why Alice should be able to remove those images with an entirely spurious reason (''These images are not medically oriented, and are used by Pro-Lifers to show the fetus as something more than a collection of cells.'') but FL should be restricted from replacing images which had sat comfortably in the article for 4 months. ] 23:45, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::::Incidentally, I agreed with IronAgeAlice. , "If these drawings are not medically accurate then they should be removed." But she produced no evidence of inaccuracy at all.] (]) 23:53, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::::: I was the one who restored the images to the article. I don't know a whole lot about the background on this Ferrylodge business, but the images at the Fetus article were medically accurate. I checked with other medical sites and with sonograms to make sure. When I found that they were conclusively accurate and brought a greater dimension to the article, I restored them. Like Ferrylodge stated these pictures were in the article for months, and were deleted by an editor that I warned for repeated POV edits and vandalism. If you take a look at this list of edits made by IronAngelAlice you will see a consistent pattern. I don't throw the vandal and POV warning out a lot. I work hard to develop consensus in my contributions. I am currently doing so on another page. In this instance, I don't see destructive POV from Ferrylodge as it relates to those images. The images were not from an anti-abortion site, nor were they placed there to invoke anti-abortion sentiments. Instead, they help illustrate the development of a Fetus. My biology textbook from college had very similar drawings and photographs. ] (]) 04:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57 | |||
*I have a problem with the characterization of FerryLodge's conduct as disruptive. A lot of that depends on context and on the point of view of the other editors. Taking a look at the cited examples: | |||
:: characterized as "''These images are not medically oriented, and are used by Pro-Lifers to show the fetus as something more than a collection of cells.''" This comment strikes me as odd. Isn't it essentially correct that the embryo is defined as a fetus when it has developed to a certain point? () These drawings do not come from a partisan pro-life web site but from a commercial site for expectant mothers that seels advertising. (As such, the links should perhaps be removed, however). Is there a question about there accuracy, and in that case, has anyone tried to find images from medical or scientific sources? The rationale for complaining about these images seems extremely suspect, and the idea that an article on ] will describe but not illustrate the stages of fetal development seems to be an extreme point of view of its own. | |||
:: Described as a POV edit; without a citation it appears to be original research (a conclusion drawn from other facts) but it appears a statement reasonably founded in the text of the article itself (). As a conclusion, it should be sourced to reliable non-partisan source (medical textbook, etc) but calling it a "POV edit" only applies I think if you have a very different POV. | |||
:: Again, why is it POV to cite factual information about the various stages of fetal development? It would be better to cite the relevant mainstream medical literature, and not a controversial figure such as Peter Singer, but if the relevant medical literature supports this statement, why not include it in a list of fetal milestones? | |||
::Regarding , also labeled "POV pushing", talk page discussion by partisans on both sides of an issue is part of the process of arriving at NPOV middle ground and consensus. Talk page disruption is behavior that prevents other editors from working together; that does not seem to be the case here, and the point FL raised (abortion is a procedure performed on a mother and a fetus) seems as least reasonable to raise for discussion. | |||
:With respect to Guy, FerryLodge may be aggressively seeking to include disputed content (the brainstem activity, drawings of different stages of fetal development) to serve an agenda, but it seems to me that aggressively seeking to remove such content serves the opposite agenda, and if one is not to be tolerated than neither is the other. Again, I can not see how the article on ] can not have drawings of different stages of development (assuming they are accurate) and I do not understand why is is ''not'' objectionable to state "At nine weeks, the fetus is able to bend fingers around an object; in response to a touch on the foot, the fetus will bend the legs or curl the toes to move away from the object." but it ''is'' objectionable to state "Brain stem activity has been detected as early as 54 days after conception." | |||
:Regarding the enforcement request, I do not see sufficient evidence of disruptive behavior to emplace an article ban at this time. ] 23:38, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::''Any uninvolved administrator may ban Ferrylodge from any article which relates to pregnancy or abortion, interpreted broadly, which they disrupt by inappropriate editing.'' Sounds like it says he may be banned from an article, which discussion should be held here. It says nothing about blocking. ] (]) 23:43, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::Blocking is used to enforce article bans. The specific enforcement clause seems to have been left out of this case, but that is the usual practice and there is no reason to ignore it here on a technicality. ] 23:49, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::It is not a technicality. ''Should we agree that this is necessary'', we say "Ferrylodge, stop editing the article". Simple as that. Of course, blocks are used to enforce bans; but no ban is put in place. ] (]) 23:58, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::::You should read up on some other Arbitration cases. In many many cases, admins are authorized to place discretionary topic bans. Violation of such bans are enforced by blocking. In this case, FL may be banned from any abortion-related article he disrupts by any uninvolved administrator, for a set period of time or indefinitely. If a ban is posted to his talk page and logged appropriately, and he then continues to edit in violation of the ban, he may be blocked. Usually, the blocking language says something like "''Should any user subject to an editing restriction in this case violate that restriction, that user may be briefly blocked, up to a week in the event of repeated violations. After 5 blocks, the maximum block shall increase to one year.''" In this case, Arbcom neglected to pass such an enforcement clause, but I would have no hesitation in issuing blocks if necessary, because otherwise the ban is meaningless. At this time, no article bans have been imposed, see ]. ] 00:31, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::::Thatcher, I'm sorry to bother you with this on Xmas, but are you saying that I will be completely banned from Misplaced Pages if it is decided that I should be banned from a particular article related to abortion or pregnancy? My impression was that I would simply stop editing that particular article, rather than being completely banned from Misplaced Pages. I was unblocked for the entire, miserable ArbCom proceeding in my case, and yet I did not edit a single article, because I was instructed not to do so. If I'm authoritatively ordered in the future to not edit a particular article, then of course I wouldn't edit that article, even if I think the order is rubbish.] (]) 00:24, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::::No, see above. ] 00:31, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Thx. Incidentally, I stumbled on this discussion by accident. Isn't there some rule or custom that the subject of the discussion ought to be made aware of it?] (]) 00:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::::::When the original complaint was made at ], you should have been notified of the discussion, ideally by the complaintant. I later moved it here, and by the time I had finished looking it over you had responded. For any editor named in an Arbitration remedy, this is probably a page you should watchlist. ] 01:29, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::Thatcher, I don't disagree in respect of content, but in respect of Ferrylodge, it is clearly the case that a militant promoter of an agenda, under an arbitration restriction, is absolutely the wrong person to be fighting that particular battle. He needs to take it to talk, not edit war. That is, to my reading, the whole point. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 00:03, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::Guy, if you're going to characterize me as a "militant promoter of an agenda" then I would appreciate if you would cite a diff, preferably a recent one. I deny it. Restoring longstanding, sourced images of a fetus in an article titled "]" is militant promotion of an agenda? Come on. That was not the least bit "inappropriate" on my part.] (]) 00:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::OK, guys. I have a proposal. It is not radical, it makes sense, I would hope that people would be willing to abide by it. I worry, however, that people will be more interested in simply blocking Ferrylodge than agreeing to a solution. Ferrylodge is limited to one revert per day at Fetus for a period of 12 months. Ferrylodge may not make any more reverts on Fetus for a period of one week from now. Any admin who wishes to enforce this may. Unfortunately, as I said, I worry people will not think this is enough. ] (]) 00:38, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::::Frankly, I'd rather just be banned from the article. I did nothing wrong there. I restored material that had been there for many months and that was properly sourced. I didn't violate 3RR. I tried to engage in discussion at the talk page. After I was unsuccessful at restoring the images, I let it go, rather than be disruptive. Another user restored the images, not me.] (]) 00:42, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::::Understandably. You made some changes and let it go, and the same people whose own views are as extreme as your own on the opposite end of the spectrum are hounding to see you blocked. So is it official then? <s>Would an admin just pronounce the words "Ferrylodge is banned from the article ] for a period of (6 months|1 year|indefinitely)"</s> so we can close this thread and get it over with? <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 00:50, 26 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
::::::::Thatcher and Violetriga already indicated above that I have done nothing to warrant a ban here. Why do you disagree, Evil Spartan? All of the stuff I did at ] recently was '''''restoring''''' longstanding, well-sourced material that was being deleted without consensus.] (]) 00:53, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Good point. This was not at all "disrupt by inappropriate editing", as arbcom said must happen. It is simply one user's frustration that Ferrylodge is editing the same article as himself. Restoring content is not disruptive, except to people who want to see it removed in the first place. ] (]) 01:03, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
*In response to both Guy and Evil Spartan, yes there will likely be problems whenever FerryLodge gets involved in situations like this. It would be better for FerryLodge to find someone who does not carry the same baggage to deal with situations such as the removal of the fetus illustrations, either be contacting a friend or through a content RFC or request for third opinion. However, that was not ''required'' by the decision. It would be a good idea for FerryLodge to observe a voluntary 1 revert limit on all the articles he edits, and look for assistance if more than one revert is needed to deal with the dispute. However, that was also not mandated. What is left is that FerryLodge is free to edit until an uninvolved admin decides he has been disruptive and lodges an article ban. Bear in mind that admins have different standards of "disruption", so it would be an excellent defense to be able to point out that one had observed a voluntary 1RR limit and it was the ''other'' editor who was disruptive. ] 01:27, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:Thatcher, are you volunteering as "someone who does not carry the same baggage"? :-) | |||
::'''No.''' ] 01:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:Believe me, I would like nothing better than to dump these contentious situations in someone else's lap. The main obstacle, I suppose, is the Misplaced Pages policy against canvassing; I'm not supposed to go looking for people to back me up, right? I certainly would not be inclined to do a voluntary 1RR on articles that are not even pertinent to my ArbCom restriction. Regarding articles that ''are'' pertinent to the ArbCom restriction, I'm kind of ambivalent. This particular thread, for example, seems kind of frivolous, and yet there does not seem to be any penalty or other drawback for people who seek to bring frivolous complaints against me. If there were such a penalty or drawback, then I doubt there would be any reason for us to even be talking about a voluntary 1RR.] (]) 01:34, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::There is a difference (sometimes subtle) between asking people for help and canvassing. ] 01:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::Your bold font is noted. I don't want to create another mess here, that leads to people accusing me of disruptive and inapproriate canvassing. As you say, the distinction between canvassing and asking for help is sometimes subtle. In contrast, there is no subtlety about the propriety of restoring longstanding and well-sourced material that has been deleted without consensus, and yet look at the hot water I'm in right now. Sheesh. Does every frivolous complaint against me have to result in some "compromise" that further whittles away what I can do at Misplaced Pages? I'd be glad to make some good-faith inquiries regarding "someone who does not carry the same baggage" as I do, but I do not expect the inquiries to be met with any enthusiasm, given the spectre of canvassing. Isn't it enough that you can permanently ban me from any abortion/pregnancy article if I violate 3RR, and even if I don't violate 3RR but edit in an inappropriately disruptive way?] (]) 01:53, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::The bold font was merely a personal expression. I strongly dislike editing articles that are targets of partisan bickering on any side. As to your situation, it is one that many editors find themselves in after Arbitration. Some do well enough that they are able to successfully petition for early release, so to speak. Others do not. The Arbitration case is ''intended'' to put a damper on your previous behavior, but not to make you a target for baseless complaints. Ultimately how you edit and how you respond to these situations is up to you. Eventually, stronger action could be taken against a serial bad faith complaintant, but it is much too early for that here. ] 02:02, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::::I hope to continue Wikipeding appropriately, and the prospect of early release is certainly an incentive. I'm sorry if using all the tools legitimately available to me results in more complaints against me. Even if I never reverted anyone, I'm sure the complaints would continue. (Believe it or not, I too don't much like editing articles that are targets of partisan bickering.) ANYhow, Happy Holidays and New Year. :-)] (]) 02:13, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:: Thatcher, I absolutely agree. A voluntary 1RR restriction would be a big step forward, and Ferrylodge should recognise that simply by being the person making the edit he is going to cause a certain amount of friction at the moment, so if the edit is as uncontentious as he clearly believes it to be then he really should take it to talk where I am sure it will achieve consensus one way or the other almost immediately, given the number of interested editors, thus removing the problem. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 11:15, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::I'm not quite sure why Ferrylodge should have to limit himself to 1RR after doing nothing wrong for common sense reverts simply because a user who is even more POV-pushy and uncivil than he makes a report in order to get a one-up in an edit dispute. I'm not sure we shouldn't just shut the thread and ask OrangeMarlin to stop asking for a block every time Ferrylodge has the chutzpah to undo one of his edits. ] (]) 11:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::::Right. Ferrylodge is on probation. Not me. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 17:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::::Oh, a little more here. I know you're capable of reading, so maybe you should take a look at the ArbCom conversation about Ferrylodge. Or how about his nice little RfC about Bishonen which got the support of one person, and the antagonism of probably 50 other editors, although we did enjoy the food commentary. Or how bout the 20 people wrote against him. And as for your personal attack, thanks. I always like saving personal attacks for future reference when necessary. You see, I use the system to stop POV-warriors. Oh, BTW, Ferrylodge, being a christian pov-pusher, would never have Chutzpah. I, being a good Jew, get to use that word. No more anti-semitism from you. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 17:23, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::::OrangeMarlin, your accusations of anti-semitism against Evil Spartan are completely baseless, but nevertheless are typical fare for you. Moreover, I am not a Christian, and I am not pro-life. Of course, I'll probably be thrown in solitary confinement for daring to correct you.] (]) 17:29, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::He doesn't ''have'' to. However, multiple reverting is not an accepted method of editing (see ]), and a voluntary 1RR would make it less likely that FerryLodge would get caught up in future enforcement action. ] 15:17, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::: Exactly. It's a prudent piece of self-discipline for an editor under a restriction of this sort. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 15:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::::So, if IronAngelAlice reverts longstanding, well-sourced content against consensus, and refuses to provide any plausible explanation, then you are suggesting that I not revert more than once, and when she reverts me back, I should do nothing. I do not have time to go through infinite dispute resolution procedures. Can't anyone say, "Thank you Ferrylodge, for restoring longstanding sourced content that was reverted without consensus by an editor who refused to provide a plausible explanation?" I was standing up to a bully here, without violating any Misplaced Pages policies.] (]) 16:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Well, IronAngelAlice hasn't been put on probation for edit-warring, personal attacks, and whatever else you've done (including attacking admins like Bishonen). So I guess you're going to have to live with your dirty deeds. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 17:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::::::IronAngelAlice does have a note on his/her user page that notes that the account is a sockpuppet and that the user has used one or more accounts abusively. Doesn't that count for something? ] (]) 17:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57 | |||
:::::::::Then haver the user blocked. My point was that IAA is not the subject of this enforcement, only Ferrylodge. So no, it has no value. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 19:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::This is a frivolous request, OrangeMarlin.] (]) 19:16, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::So there we go, we're in agreement. But you on the other hand, should be blocked. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 19:27, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:Could someone point to diffs showing where FL violated even a 1RR much less came close to a 3RR? I've looked through the revision history of ] in the last month. I see a total of 5 edits (single edits or a consecutive group of edits) by FL. The first was to restore images that (by all accounts) had long been part of the article. Then he restored a sentence while adding a reference. He restored a completely different sentence that was already sourced. He inserted a comment in a different place. And finally he added a ref and fixed a missing ref in yet a different paragraph. Sorry, I just don't see the beef. ] (]) 00:54, 27 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
===Part III=== | |||
I believe FL again has made uncivil comments on talk pages. And this is particularly notable because they occurred while similar concerns were being brought up here. FL is not trying hard to avoid the personal attacks, even when there is this scrutiny over his editing. I bring up two cases: and . The first, FL says "I'm sure if Romney robbed banks with his father, then Qworty would be supporting as much detail as possible." There is no reason to speculate on what another editor would or would not support, especially when it is a hypothetical situation that involves disparaging a public figure. The comment would have been fine if that entire sentence was simply not there. Again, there is no reason to make accusatory statements about other editors on talk pages. The second example should be read completely (or even ]). He links to an inflamatory statement another user said about Odd nature 3 months ago. This is similar to when FL brought up another editor's political party affiliation by linking to off-site content (). These are all uncivil things, and should never have occurred on article talk pages. I'm writing this because I know FL will read it, and hopefully he will take it to heart and attempt to change. As I've said over and over this past month. Comment on content, not on users. I apologize that this isn't exactly related to the ArbCom enforcement (I will also note that the comments to Odd nature that happened today were in relation to Roe v. Wade, which is clearly related to abortion, although the article itself is ]), but incivility is still a blockable offense, that I ask to be considered by an uninvolved admin. -] </sup>]] 22:18, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:I object to Andrew c bringing up these insubstantial matters. Already on December 20 at this page, Andrew c “an uninvolved admin to review this case and possibly ban him from Roe v. Wade.” That request was rejected. Now Andrew c is back on December 26 with more. | |||
:Andrew c now raises three cases, which all occurred at the talk page of the article about ], and two of which have absolutely nothing whatseoever to do with abortion or pregnancy (which is the only type of issue addressed by the ArbCom decision in my case).... | |||
:First, was completely unrelated to abortion or pregnancy. Andrew c also takes that comment out of context. I said, “I'm sure if Romney robbed banks with his father, then Qworty would be supporting as much detail as possible. :-)” Note the smiley face at the end. No one complained or objected about this humorous comment then, nor during the time period from then until now. The person who I made the comment to (Qworty) had --- with no prompting from me --- that he is not a Republican, and Qworty had also argued at great length that we should insert detail into the Mitt Romney article about Romney's alleged Mormon underwear. My brief comment about robbing banks ought to be viewed in that context. It was a humorous remark completely unrelated to abortion or pregnancy, and so I do not understand why Andrew c is bringing it up here. | |||
:Second, Andrew c brings up which ''was'' tangentially related to abortion and pregnancy. . Andrew c objects to the fact that I linked “to an inflamatory statement another user said about Odd nature 3 months ago.” The was an appropriate warning to Odd nature for . I do not know why Odd nature showed up at the Mitt Romney article today to revert me, but I felt it would be appropriate to mention to Odd nature that “I hope we can have an unusually productive discussion here” in view of our past difficulties. There was nothing uncivil at all. It is ironic that one of the people accusing me here today can make wild accusations of antisemitism without the slightest repercussion, and yet Andrew c objects to me even suggesting the possibility that a user (Odd nature) may have previously behaved inappropriately toward me, which he most certainly did. | |||
:Third, Andrew c brings up in which I referred to another editor's political party affiliation by linking to off-site content. And again, this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with pregnancy or abortion, so Andrew c has no reason to bring it up here, unless his purpose is to rewrite the ArbCom decision. Please note that the other editor’s user page prominently has a link to the off-site content in question, calling it “my brush with fame.” So, I was not revealing any secrets. All I did was to Qworty that the other editor is not a Republican, because I thought Qworty might find that interesting, seeing as how Qworty had that he himself is not a Republican. There was nothing uncivil, and I explained the same thing .] (]) 23:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::I will address the last item as it involved me: I do not accept this explanation. There were 3 days and ''over 160 edits'' to that talk page in between ''about himself'' that he is not a Republican, and about what the Washington Post article (that he was also featured in) said about my being a Democrat. It is hardly believable that he thought at that point in time out of the blue that it would be "interesting" to mention my nominal political affiliation (the article also said that I had not decided who I am supporting in this election) in a comment in which he also characterized my editing. I was not a party to the discussion in that section of the talk page, and Qworty wasn't talking about not being a Republican then or there, yet Ferrylodge brought me into it saying this: | |||
:::''"If we're going to keep this religion section, it ought to go at the end. Other candidates don't have such a section, and this material is not the most important stuff about him. But Tvoz insisted that it be up front, and accused me of trying to bury it (Tvoz is a by the way)." '' | |||
::In what universe is it believable that this was said just to provide an interesting side comment about my voter registration status? I believe it was a personal attack - it seems clear that it was an insinuation that my so-called "insisting" and "accusation" about the location of this material was politically motivated. The point was incorrect to boot - I was only one of the people who thought that placement made the most sense in the context of the article - indeed, it was a compromise solution that I helped create and which we ''reached consensus on'' to have the religious background section appear as the second section of the article, which broke the logjam and allowed the full protection of the page to be lifted. This is explained . This is not the first time that Ferrylodge has made irrelevant and gratuitous personal comments about me, and it is disturbing that this also went on during and now after the arbitration proceeding. Despite the fact that ArbCom chose to focus only on his tendentious editing of reproduction-related articles rather than also cautioning him about his similarly tendentious editing of political articles, I think it is impossible that they were giving him carte blanche to behave in an uncivil manner on ''any'' article or talk page, and personal attacks, no matter how one tries to backpedal from them, are uncivil. <strong>] </strong>|<small>]</small> 03:08, 27 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::Tvoz, no one is supposed to have carte blanche to make uncivil attacks. I deny that I have been uncivil to you, but if you wish to lodge a complaint in that regard, this is not the correct place. The incident you mention had nothing whatsoever to do with abortion or pregnancy, as specified in the ArbCom decision. | |||
:::Moreover, I hardly think that parenthetically mentioning your party affiliation is a heinous insult. I did not mean to imply that you have any conflict of interest, and I'm sorry that you took offense. | |||
:::Please keep in mind also that you have used the Mitt Romney discussion thread to that I am engaging in a "campaign" for Romney, and to me of attempting to "bury" material about Romney. Hardly AGF. | |||
:::And it's also ironic that the person who started this section (OrangeMarlin) has a nasty habit of viciously attacking anyone who says a word in my defense, without penalty. He told User B that he couldn't wait to watch User B being fucked, and more recently accused User Evil Spartan of antisemitism. In what universe is it believable that parenthetically mentioning your party affiliation is even remotely comparable to the type of language used by OrangeMarlin (who incidentally also me of being a Christian). | |||
:::I am growing weary of these frivolous requests for ArbCom enforcement. Can we start the new year in a more cordial manner, please?] (]) 03:26, 27 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
==Request for Clarification for ]== | |||
{{report top|''Cautions'' handed out by Arbcom are merely advisory and are not enforceable. A further request for arbitration would have to be filed so that the Committee can examine the situation again and consider additional enforceable remedies. ] 01:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)}} | |||
This user, ] was subject to a recent (ie, March 2007). Fyslee has gone out of his way to harass, threaten, as well as try very hard to goad me into making personal attacks against him/her. Here are some specific behavior issues: | |||
#Yet, another instance of Fyslee's non-stop harassment, and goading is shown in his/reply below. Fyslee is always trying to force his/her partisan point of view into everything. | |||
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#* Without a doubt the very first personal attack was made by Fyslee. -- ] (]) 20:12, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
The only reason I am bringing this up at all is because of the request for clarification made by ] below. But now that I have been shown how to make a complaint against Fyslee, I am freely doing so. For the last 1 and 3/4 years I have been editing articles in peace on Misplaced Pages, minding my own business. But fairly recently, a group of skeptics have been trying very hard to goad me into making personal attacks against them. In my opinion, it was mostly due to ] trying to force his/her partisan point of view on several articles related to alternative medicine. -- ] (]) 19:29, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
: I must say this is an interesting type of ] violation - creating this section to attack me, as a response to the RfC below (which was raised by another user!). As a violation of ] and obvious bad faith contribution, please remove this whole section as this is a classic '']'' ] only intended to divert attention from the real issues raised below. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 19:00, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::And, of course, we're ignoring the ruling with respect to Fyslee: | |||
<blockquote>3.1) Fyslee is cautioned to use reliable sources and to edit from a ]. He is reminded that editors with a known partisan point of view should be careful to seek consensus on the talk page of articles to avoid the appearance of a COI if other editors question their edits. | |||
''passed 7-0 at 12:31, 27 March 2007 (UTC)''</blockquote> | |||
::He was cautioned, not put on probation like John Gohde, and has worked for consensus. This Clarification for User is bogus and should be eliminated. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 19:15, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::Fyslee should be permanently banned from editing any article related to alternative medicine becuase he/she has tried to block collaboration every step of the way. Fyslee has been talking constantly about personal attacks while I have been successfully editing articles, bothering absolutely nobody. And, here Orangemarlin for absolutely no reason reverted two of my edits today because of a ruling in 2004!!! And, filed a request for Clarification on Christmas day, just to goad me into making a personal attack. -- ] (]) 19:46, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
::::Sorry? What's Christmas? If you're so easy to goad into making a personal attack, should you be here? ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 20:08, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
:::::Most of the diffs cited by ] at the top of this complaint show Fyslee being reasonably civil. At least one (the last diff, which John Gohde has helpfully '''bolded''') shows John Gohde himself in a worse light than Fyslee ("science trolls"?) But then, I suppose I'm not uninvolved, as I've previously been unimpressed with John Gohde's canvassing and advice to other users on how to game Misplaced Pages's policies (, , , , etc). ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 22:27, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
If anyone wants to find good examples of John Gohde's personal attacks and other parole violations, just use the links he posts as examples of personal attacks by other users. They inevitably show that he is the attacking party. His own talk page's history makes an interesting study in the deletion of warnings and good advice, even ridiculing admins when they warn him. This is entirely consistent with <u>'''his stated opinion of admins as "mentally ill individual"'''</u>: ''"The only picture that I get of an Admin at Misplaced Pages is that of a mentally ill individual. In my humble opinion, you cannot have a rational conversation or any kind of a rational exchange of ideas with the mentally ill."'' | |||
Anyone who is in doubt about <u>'''his purpose here'''</u> can read his website description of Misplaced Pages ''"Try to promote any subject matter on Misplaced Pages and you will quickly get the attention of at least one of these mentally ill admins. I promoted Alternative Medicine all too well."'' ''"I actually accomplished what I had originally intended to do at Misplaced Pages, on day one, before I even set up a user name. But, I was so quickly attacked by hordes of Wikipedians so bent on destroying what I had edited that I decided to stick around a whole lot longer. One thing lead to another, and I ended up promoting alternative medicine in general."'' He isn't here to write in an NPOV manner, but to "promote alternative medicine." '''Advocacy''' is forbidden here. It's rather odd that he accuses others of being "partisan", when he himself is probably one of the most "partisan" editors at Misplaced Pages. | |||
Since this RfC (based on his own stated reason) is an obvious violation of ], a bad faith action, and an '']'' ] only intended to divert attention from the real issues raised below (which have now led to his blocking for 48 hrs.), what more is needed to get this deleted? Misuse of this board for personal attacks and soapboxing is disruptive and should not be rewarded. Please delete this. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 23:44, 25 December 2007 (UTC) | |||
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For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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Lemabeta
Lemabeta has acknowledged the warnings here to take more care and stay well clear of articles from which they are restricted from editing. Further violations are very likely to lead to sanctions, up to and including an indefinite block. Seraphimblade 12:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Lemabeta
I likely filed this improperly, but to sum it up they continue to make pages in a scope they were banned from. EF 20:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Discussion concerning LemabetaStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by LemabetaYeah, my bad. Didn't realize translation of a page of ethnographic group would count as a violation of my topic ban about "history of the Caucasus and its cultural heritage, broadly construed" I recognize my mistake. --Lemabeta (talk) 20:30, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning Lemabeta
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GokuEltit
Issues on the Spanish Misplaced Pages will need to be handled there; the English Misplaced Pages has no authority or control over what happens on the Spanish project. This noticeboard is only for requesting enforcement of English Misplaced Pages arbitration decisions. Seraphimblade 22:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I was blocked from Misplaced Pages for ignoring the formatting of a table, I edited an article wrong, Bajii banned me for 2 weeks, but it didn't even take 1 and Hasley changed it to permanent, I tried to make an unban request, they deleted it and blocked my talk page. I asked for help on irc, an admin tried to help me make another unblock request, but the admin jem appeared and told me that I was playing the victim and banned me and expelled me from irc. I just want to contribute to the platform GokuJuan (talk) 20:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
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Boy shekhar
Blocked by Rosguill as a regular administrative action. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 23:57, 12 January 2025 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Boy shekhar
Discussion concerning Boy shekharStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Boy shekharStatement by VanamondeThis user hasn't edited for 4.5 years since they were TBANned, and none of their 31 edits show any ability to follow our PAGs. At the risk of sounding harsh, an extended AE discussion is a waste of time; a passing admin should indef them (I cannot, I am INVOLVED on most of the content they have edited). Vanamonde93 (talk) 23:26, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Result concerning Boy shekhar
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שלומית ליר
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning שלומית ליר
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Smallangryplanet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:24, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- שלומית ליר (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBPIA
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation of how these edits violate it
ShlomitLir (שלומית ליר) created their account back in 2014. The breakdown of their edits is as follows:
- 2014 to 2016: no edits.
- 2017 to 2019: 1 edit per year. None related to PIA.
- 2022: 7 edits. Mostly in their userspace.
- 2023: 21 edits. Again, mostly in their userspace. Made two edits in the talk page of Palestinian genocide accusation complaining about its content and calling it “blatant pro-Hamas propaganda”.
- 2024: Started editing after a 10 month break at the end of October.
- Made 51 edits in October and 81 edits in November (copyedits, adding links, minor edits).
- In December, that number rose up to almost 400, including 116 in December 6 alone and 98 in December 7. Became ECR that day.
- Immediately switched to editing in PIA, namely in the Battle of Sderot article where they changed the infobox picture with an unclear image with a dubious caption, and removed a template without providing a reason why.
- They also edited the Use of human shields by Hamas article, adding another image with a caption not supported by the source (replaced by yet another image with a contextless caption when the previous image was removed) and WP:UNDUE content in the lead.
- they also voted in the second AfD for Calls for the destruction of Israel despite never having interacted with that article or its previous AfD. They have barely surpassed 500 edits, but the gaming is obvious, highlighted by the sudden switch to editing in PIA.
More importantly, there's the issue of POV pushing. I came across this article authored by them on Ynet, once again complaining about what they perceive as an anti Israeli bias on Misplaced Pages. They have also authored a report for the World Jewish Congress covering the same topic. The report can be seen in full here. I think that someone with this clear POV agenda shouldn't be near the topic.
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 2023-04-05 and re-iterated on 2024-11-25 (see the system log linked to above).
- Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on 2024-12-18 by Femke (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Adding some additional comments on 2025-01-16: On top of POV issues, the user has a number of tweets that appear to be a clear admission of gaming, implicit canvassing, creating and sharing lists of potential "most biased articles", and clearly calling for specific edits. They've also been cited as coordinating an off-wiki coordination hub for editing Misplaced Pages. If this - combined with the tweets, the forms, the op-ed and the report to the WJC, all under this user's name (that they also use to edit Misplaced Pages - this is not outing) isn't a clear cut case of canvassing, I don't know what is. Smallangryplanet (talk) 20:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- Notification diff
Discussion concerning שלומית ליר
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by שלומית ליר
I believe contents of this filing to be in clear policy violation and have reached out to the arbitration committee for further clarification before commenting further.שלומית ליר (talk) 14:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Thebiguglyalien
This is the first ARBPIA report since the proposed decision was posted at ARBPIA5 and it's specifically a matter of POV pushing, responding admins should be aware of the "AE topic bans" remedy. The committee is discussing whether to implement a remedy stating that admins at AE are "empowered and encouraged to consider a topic ban" purely for biased editing. So far, the argument against is that it's redundant because AE admins are already supposed to do this. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 05:39, 12 January 2025 (UTC) https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2024-03-29/Special_report
Statement by Selfstudier
To the extent that it is relevant, the WJC report was discussed at Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-03-29/Special report. Selfstudier (talk) 11:25, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by starship.paint (2)
I would to like to raise this 9 December 2024 edit at Battle of Sderot, where there had been an existing unsourced paragraph (On the morning of October 7, a tour minibus...
) that שלומית ליר added a reference to (archive 1 / archive 2) from the Israeli Public Broadcasting Corporation. The reference is relevant, but I believe it may not verify every detail in the Battle of Sderot paragraph (e.g. "Netivot", "Holocaust survivors"). The reference contains a short paragraph of text and a video that is 4:21 long. I can't watch the video in the reference, but I believe it is this same YouTube video that is 4:20 long which contains the same screenshot as the reference, on the same topic. Most of the video is an interview of the daughter of a dead victim who was on the bus (the daughter had been on the phone with the victim), except for 1:58 to 2:13 which appears to be a quote from the bus driver. The publisher themselves do not have too much reporting in their own voice (on the video), yet this reference was used to cite a paragraph entirely stated in Wikivoice. No attribution was made to the relative or the bus driver, or to the publisher. I can't be totally sure though, due to unfamiliarity with Hebrew. starship.paint (talk / cont) 13:53, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by xDanielx
@Arcticocean: I don't really see how NPOV can be read as requiring edits which support both sides of a controversy. Our content policies don't impose any positive duties; they only tell us what not to do. The text of the policy doesn't support the notion that a pattern of edits could be in violation, even if no particular edit is in violation.
In principle, such a pattern of edits could violate the UCoC policy, but I don't believe this board has ever enforced it. If it were to be enforced, I think it should be for more serious violations like the double standards that e.g. this attempted to demonstrate, rather than mere opinion-driven editing which applies to the vast majority of CTOP editors. — xDanielx /C\ 03:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Hemiauchenia
This user has engaged in off-wiki canvassing regarding the IP conflict. Take the following recent tweet from the 12 January permanent archive
For posterity in case it is deleted it contains the following remarks:
If you can't handle the facts, just delete them Propaganda on @Misplaced Pages includes targeting Israel, demonizing it, and erasing inconvenient truths, from falsifying war outcomes to deleting Israeli inventions and attempting to erase the reality of Palestinian suicide bombers.
Along with this is a screenshot of the current AfD Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Palestinian suicide attacks. People are of course allowed to be caustic about Misplaced Pages off-wiki, but calling out a specific AfD with highly charged rhetoric, essentially inciting canvassing seems out of line. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:05, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- For those concerned that this might be outing, שלומית ליר is very open about their real life identity on their userpage. See (archived). If you reveal your real identity on Misplaced Pages, your tweets about Misplaced Pages on your Twitter account connected to your real-life identity are fair game to mention. There's also reverse confirmation in this tweet . Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:46, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Cdjp1
As we seem to be ok to pull evidence from the statements of the editor in question, they have also commented more recently about running interference on Misplaced Pages (archive) in response to a question of if Misplaced Pages can be "saved". -- Cdjp1 (talk) 23:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning שלומית ליר
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Users are allowed to have a POV - it's a rare user indeed who edits a contentious topic without having some strong opinions about it. For conduct to be actionable at AE it needs to be an actual policy violation. The misleading use of images doesn't rise to the level of AE action in my view, and judging whether an addition like this is UNDUE is not within AE's purview, as long as it is supported by the source. Vanamonde93 (talk) 23:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- The PIA5 remedy hasn't passed yet, and its interpretation is as yet unclear to me: but in my view we are already empowered to deal with biased editing, in the sense of editing that violates NPOV. What I'm not willing to do is sanction on the basis of someone's opinions alone; they have to be shown to have let their opinions get in the way of following our PAGs. Vanamonde93 (talk) 07:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see some evidence - based on Arcticocean's digging below - that שלומית ליר is using images without sufficient care, but I don't see that rising to the level of a sanction. As to the rest, xDanielx is correct - nowhere do our policies require treating both sides of a conflict equally - indeed our PAGs discourage false balance. Those diffs could be actionable if they individually or collectively violate policy, but I have yet to see evidence of that. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:22, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- The off-wiki canvassing is a problem. It merits a warning at least, I don't know if the formality thereof matters. If there was evidence that שלומית ליר was aware of WP:CANVAS I would consider something more stringent. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see some evidence - based on Arcticocean's digging below - that שלומית ליר is using images without sufficient care, but I don't see that rising to the level of a sanction. As to the rest, xDanielx is correct - nowhere do our policies require treating both sides of a conflict equally - indeed our PAGs discourage false balance. Those diffs could be actionable if they individually or collectively violate policy, but I have yet to see evidence of that. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:22, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- The PIA5 remedy hasn't passed yet, and its interpretation is as yet unclear to me: but in my view we are already empowered to deal with biased editing, in the sense of editing that violates NPOV. What I'm not willing to do is sanction on the basis of someone's opinions alone; they have to be shown to have let their opinions get in the way of following our PAGs. Vanamonde93 (talk) 07:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- While I understand Vanamonde93's concerns, I think that we are required to assess the totality of the user's contributions. Contentious topic editors are required to uphold NPOV. Misplaced Pages:Contentious topics#Guidance for editors places an obligation to Within contentious topics,… edit carefully and constructively… and… adhere to the purposes of Misplaced Pages. The linked page provides that Misplaced Pages is written from a neutral point of view… We strive for articles with an impartial tone that document and explain major points of view, giving due weight for their prominence. If an editor is only adding content that significantly favours one or the other side to the conflict, this is incompatible with their contentious topic obligation. That is because an editor making only one-sided edits will simply not be taking the necessary steps to ensure that the whole article is written from a neutral point of view. As their number of one-sided edits increases, the likelihood decreases that the editor is ensuring our content is neutral and impartial. Once we reach the point of being sure that they are not attempting to ensure neutrality of content, we can conclude the editor is not meeting their contentious topics obligations and we can issue a sanction. This can only be assessed with hindsight and by looking at the editor's contributions as a whole. arcticocean ■ 20:21, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Assessing the topic area contributions of the respondent (שלומית ליר) since they became extended-confirmed at 17:33, 8 December 2024, there is cause for concern. I counted 19 edits to the area conflict. Taken together, they significantly skew the articles negatively against the opposing side of the conflict:
- Adding a citation for a claim that Hamas terrorists shot dead a group of Israeli tourists.
- Replacing map with a photograph of victims of violence.
- Removing an outdated maintenance tag which was perhaps casting doubt on the relevant section, Massacre of pensioners, and again.
- Adding specification to claims of the use of human shield (specifying who has made the claims), therefore giving greater weight to the claims, in a context where the claims were already described at considerable length; adding another reference to that claim; and adding another.
- Adding an image contentiously captioned 'Weapons Found in a Mosque', then again Rockets hidden at a house, both to the first line of the article.
- Adding, without sufficient context, an assertion that a philosopher has determined that one side of the conflict is culpable and expanding other coverage of culpability of that side.
- On the talk pages, there has been a tinge of failure to AGF although I would be prepared to look past that (it was like meeting like). I am skipping a few further and insignificant talk page comments.
- There are then edits to LGBTQ rights in the State of Palestine: inserting a reference to execution into the first sentence of the lead; adding more references to news coverage of executions of LGBT+ people by the other side of the conflict. At Houthi movement, there is then an expansion, again of the article lead, to add references to terrorist attacks (with follow-up).
- Assessing the edits as a whole, it is difficult not to conclude that the respondent user is failing to meet their contentious topics obligation to edit neutrally in this topic area. As the number of edits is so far limited, if a sanction is imposed, it could justifiably be light-touch. arcticocean ■ 20:34, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- @XDanielx: Thanks for commenting. Most of the edits do not have a neutral, encyclopedic POV. There is an effort to influence our articles away from neutrally describing the subject without taking sides, contrary to WP:NPOV. Even if each edit in isolation is insufficient for sanctioning, taken as a whole the edits show an inability or unwillingness to edit neutrally. One non-neutral edit shouldn't be sanctioned; twenty is a different story. This is not about the percentage of biased edits but about the weight or amount of them. Therefore, the assessment wouldn't really change even had the editor made some 'neutral' edits along the way. I'm happy to concede that editors cannot be compelled to balance edits of one bias with edits of another, but I don't think that comes into it. In a nutshell, this is about Misplaced Pages:Advocacy. arcticocean ■ 08:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Assessing the topic area contributions of the respondent (שלומית ליר) since they became extended-confirmed at 17:33, 8 December 2024, there is cause for concern. I counted 19 edits to the area conflict. Taken together, they significantly skew the articles negatively against the opposing side of the conflict:
- The offwiki canvassing is a problem...שלומית ליר, you're fairly inexperienced here. Were you aware WP:canvassing is not allowed? Valereee (talk) 12:59, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I take it that per Barkeep49's brief oversighting of potentially-sensitive content in this report (Special:Diff/1269845558), and then restoration of the same (Special:Diff/1269848988), concerns of outing have been investigated and the report can proceed on its merits? signed, Rosguill 19:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's correct. I got a request, I didn't really feel it was OUTING, but as I indicated in my edit summary OS is a tool of first resort. I consulted with the OS listserv and received some responses quickly agreeing with me and so I unsuppressed and restored the material. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Luganchanka
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Luganchanka
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Hemiauchenia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Luganchanka (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Editing of Biographies of Living Persons
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 19:55, 12 January 2025 Reversion to version of article where the article says "He is a child sex offender" in the second sentence despite consensus at BLPN discussion that this is problematic because Ritter never actually interacted with a real child.
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
18:28, 12 January 2025 BLP CTOP warning given
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
At BLPN, there has been consensus that the version of the article describing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the second sentence of the article is problematic, as he did not actually have sexual contact with a child, only a police officer impersonating one. Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Scott_Ritter_Biography_-_Noncompliance_with_MOS_and_BLP_Guidelines. Luganchanka has been persistently edit warring against this apparent consensus. For which he has been warned by @NatGertler: , which he subequently blanked There has been persistent objection to descrbing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences of the article going back to at least August Talk:Scott_Ritter#First_sentence, but Luganchanka persistently cites a "consensus" for its inclusion that as far as I can tell does not seem to exist, with Luganchanka aggressively editing to enforce its inclusion. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Luganchanka's response is disingenuous and misleading. Look at the Talk:Scott_Ritter#First_sentence discussion I linked above. Nobody other than Luganchanka thinks that Ritter should be described as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences of the article. The dispute isn't about whether or not the convictions should be mentioned in the lead at all or not, it's specifically about the use of the phrase "child sex offender", and there is no consensus to include that as far as I can tell, despite Luganchanka's vociferous claims to the contrary. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:47, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Luganchanka
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Luganchanka
The intro on the Scott Ritter page had remained largely the same for several months, as you will see on the talkpage it is an intro approved, and reverted to, by multiple senior editors. There has been a recent flurry of activity / edits. While I WP: assume good faith, it does look like those edits are attempting to downplay / whitewash Ritter's sexual offence conviction(s). I have not been 'aggressive' at all, rather I have simply referred contentious edits to the talkpage to build consensus, attempting to do my duty as a good Misplaced Pages editor.Luganchanka (talk) 20:40, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Please see the Talk:Scott_Ritter, where there has been a clear consensus reached, on more than one occasion, and by senior wikipedia editors, that Ritter's sexual offence conviction should be included in the lead to the article. My edits have simply been aimed at ensuring this consensus reached is maintained in the article.Luganchanka (talk) 20:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you to @Valereee and @Red-tailed hawk for your feedback. If you see the Talk:Scott_Ritter, discussions -
14 August - Vandalism by removing all reference entirely to Ritter being a "Convicted Sex Offender"
andFirst sentence
. The latter discussion ended on 26th September, and resulted in the intro we had until a flurry of edits the other day, trying to move information on Ritter's sexual offence conviction, downplay it, whitewash it etc. My edits were aimed at restoring the edit reached by consensus, which had been in place for several months until the recent raft of edits with the clear aim of moving / downplaying Ritter's sexual offence conviction.Luganchanka (talk) 06:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for this (nest), I really do appreciate your feedback and advice here!!Luganchanka (talk) 16:30, 16 January 2025 (UTC) (moved from admin-only section — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC))
- As per Rosguill's comments:
"Unfazed by "Emily's" age, Ritter asked "Emily," "you want to see it finish?" Ritter then turned on the webcam and ejaculated in front of the camera for "Emily." Detective Venneman then notified Ritter of his undercover status and the undercover operation and directed Ritter to call the police station."
https://casetext.com/case/ritter-v-tuttle
Luganchanka (talk) 18:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by NatGertler
Editor's edits today focused on trying to main a negative descriptor of what subject believed, despite it not being in the three sources that were listed (nor in the old version they ultimately reverted to.) Efforts were first trying to simply restate the claim, then trying to source it to an opinion piece (problem) from the Washington Examiner (also a bit of a problem, per WP:RSP), then trying to state as a fact what had merely been stated in a non-prime article as an accusation. BLP concern was pointed out repeatedly via edit summary and on Talk page. Removal of unsourced contentious BLP claims and even false claims is not "whitewashing" despite how editor wishes to depict it, it is in accord with our practices. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 21:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Luganchanka
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- @Luganchanka: whether you're correct or not, you were edit warring. I believe an indef block from the article and/or a temporary site block would be an appropriate sanction here. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:54, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've blocked the user for 48h for violating 3RR based on the report at WP:AN3.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:56, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Luganchanka, edit-warring to remove negative content at a BLP is an exemption to 3RR. I see that NatGertler mentioned this in their edit summaries and at talk. As voorts points out, it doesn't matter whether you're right when you're reverting an edit that is being claimed as an exemption, even if you believe Rosguillwhiyou are "ensuring this consensus reached is maintained in the article". The solution is to go to talk, discuss, and get consensus. If you'd like to respond, ping me to your response at your talk and I'll post it here. Valereee (talk) 16:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Luganchanka, if you really believe those two sections -- senior editors, indeed, this one was between someone with 13 edits and somcoen who wasn't ECR, for heaven's sake -- somehow prove consensus was strong, and you think that means you can ignore all the later ones -- at one of which you didn't even respond to a ping, where people were objecting -- then this is maybe looking like a WP:CIR issue.
- But even if you had been somehow editing to support a consensus you believed was settled, you cannot edit-war contentious material into a BLP when others are objecting to it. The solution, always, is to go to talk, discuss, and reconfirm consensus. There is zero urgency to have this information in the article. Including something negative in a BLP is not something you should ever edit war over. Valereee (talk) 18:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Luganchanka's reading of the state of consensus on the talk page as supporting their edits is so far off base that it borders on being a CIR issue if it's sincere. Indef block from Scott Ritter seems appropriate. signed, Rosguill 22:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see RTH's point about the "First sentence" section in isolation. I'd note that the link to WP:FORUMSHOP isn't really appropriate here, as bringing the discussion to BLP/N was an appropriate action (if it was then brought to NPOVN, NORN, etc., that would be forumshopping). I'd like to see some actual contrition around the edit warring and frivolous accusations of
whitewash
before writing this off as time-served. signed, Rosguill 15:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)- That's fair; I'll strike the link. My point in including it was that, when conversations fragment, we sometimes get these sorts of chaotic incidents. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 15:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Understood, I think that meaning was clear for us here in the admin section, but I could easily see a new editor misinterpreting it unintentionally. signed, Rosguill 15:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am not at all comforted by the fact that Luganchanka has proceeded to make Special:Diff/1269831044. The cited BBC source does not state
masturbated and ejaculated on camera
, saying onlygraphic sex act
. As written, this is essentially another BLP violation, building a case that a ban from this topic is needed. signed, Rosguill 16:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)- Having reviewed the other sources, reliable sources do confirm the masturbation claim (, ) but not ejaculation, which appears to be supported only by New York Post, a generally unreliable source. Luganchanka, in light of this clarification, can you please address your decision to include the claims as you initially wrote them? signed, Rosguill 17:02, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- The detail is in the record of Ritter v. Tuttle (case No. 3:15cv1235 (M.D. Pa. Dec. 14, 2018)), so it isn't completely made up. But I would also like to hear from the user on this point as to whether there was secondary sourcing here. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Seeing Special:Diff/1269853673 here and Special:Diff/1269853955, Special:Diff/1269845272 at Talk:Scott Ritter, I see no comprehension of the use of primary vs. secondary sources, nor any reflection of their past errors in engaging with this topic. I believe that a block from the page is needed to prevent further BLP violations as they have shown no understanding of the relevant policies even after being given several warnings, reminders and opportunities to revise their position. signed, Rosguill 18:47, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Luganchanka:
- WP:BLPPRIMARY calls upon users to
not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person
. There are some narrow exceptions (whenprimary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source
), but adding material to the article not found in reliable secondary sources is... suboptimal at best under our biographies of living persons policy. - — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 02:27, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- The detail is in the record of Ritter v. Tuttle (case No. 3:15cv1235 (M.D. Pa. Dec. 14, 2018)), so it isn't completely made up. But I would also like to hear from the user on this point as to whether there was secondary sourcing here. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Having reviewed the other sources, reliable sources do confirm the masturbation claim (, ) but not ejaculation, which appears to be supported only by New York Post, a generally unreliable source. Luganchanka, in light of this clarification, can you please address your decision to include the claims as you initially wrote them? signed, Rosguill 17:02, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am not at all comforted by the fact that Luganchanka has proceeded to make Special:Diff/1269831044. The cited BBC source does not state
- Understood, I think that meaning was clear for us here in the admin section, but I could easily see a new editor misinterpreting it unintentionally. signed, Rosguill 15:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's fair; I'll strike the link. My point in including it was that, when conversations fragment, we sometimes get these sorts of chaotic incidents. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 15:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see RTH's point about the "First sentence" section in isolation. I'd note that the link to WP:FORUMSHOP isn't really appropriate here, as bringing the discussion to BLP/N was an appropriate action (if it was then brought to NPOVN, NORN, etc., that would be forumshopping). I'd like to see some actual contrition around the edit warring and frivolous accusations of
- @Luganchanka: Would you please provide a direct link to the talk page section you are referring to when you say
there has been a clear consensus reached, on more than one occasion, and by senior wikipedia editors
regarding the lead? — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 01:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC)- @Luganchanka and Hemiauchenia:
- It does seem that the discussion at Talk:Scott Ritter#First sentence does indicate some support for that language i.e. (
convicted child sex offender
) in the lead, with some general lean against putting it in the first sentence. So, whileThere has been persistent objection to descrbing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences
is true if it means the literal first sentence, I do see a rough consensus to include the material in the lead section in some way in that discussion. - That being said, the BLPN discussion had a bit of different tone and tenor from the discussion on the talk page. There was notification about a BLPN discussion on the article's talk page, but Luganchanka, despite having been pretty vocal about this subject in the past, hadn't participated in that BLPN discussion. They instead grounded their edits in the argument that the article's talk page had consensus for the current content, and nothing on the article's talk page had changed that consensus. And that much was true. In any case, we've got
two different forums with two different answerstwo different forums with two different answers here, which appears to be what's leading to the whole kerfluffle. - Then the analysis comes to whether or not the label is a straightforward BLP violation, requiring us to read the sourcing in the article. This NY Times piece, which is cited in the body of the article (but not the lead), does state that Ritter
was convicted unlawful contact with minors and other charges
in the state of PA (the PA statute is here; "unlawful contact with minors" is the verbatim name of the crime). When dealing with a sting operation, PA treats it asan offense of the same grade and degree
as if the criminal had actually contacted a child (unless it's a lesser crime than a third-degree felony, in which case it becomes a third-degree felony). This is an extremely common practice in the United States (there are lots of philosophical questions regarding mens rea and actus reus here, but that's not really relevant here). In any case, labeling this to be a child sex offense (or, alternatively, to simply use the name of the crime in the article) does not appear to be straightforward malice/POV-pushing/libel, and a reasonably informed individual might shorten it in this way. Whether or not that is wise or optimal to shorten it is the proper subject for content discussion. - Aside from the edit warring (which was not acceptable, and was aptly handled by a block), this looks like a content dispute. A heated one involving a living person, sure, but a content dispute nonetheless. I see good-faith—albeit passionate—disagreement. If the editors were to come together and engage in one forum (such as the article's talk page, where this has been discussed a bunch), rather than splitting the discussion over multiple pages, I feel like we might have our best shot at attaining a consensus going forward.
- In short, it looks like the conversation fragmented, and consensus-building broke down. Edit warring ensued, which was bad, but we've already blocked for that in order to dissuade it going forward. A Request for Comment on the article's talk page for what the lead should look like is probably the best way to go forward here.
- — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 15:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
BabbleOnto
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning BabbleOnto
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- ජපස (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- BabbleOnto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/COVID-19#Contentious_topic_designation
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 11 January 2025 Sealioning
- 11 January 2025 Refusal to get the message
- 11 January 2025 Personalizing an argument.
- 11 January 2025 Railroading the discussion.
This is all after I warned them about WP:AE sanctions, and they dismissed my warning out of hand. Very nearly a WP:SPA on the subject. I see no reason to continue tolerating this kind of obstinate tendetiousness. Additional diffs available on request from admins, but looking at the user history should suffice to indicate the problem is obvious, I hope.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 9 Dec 2024 (see the system log linked to above).
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
This is a WP:SPA with respect to the topic and their disruption surrounding it has been subject to at least one WP:FTN thread that remains active: Misplaced Pages:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Gain_of_function_research. The hope was that they would WP:DROPTHESTICK and move on from this, but it seems they either will not or cannot. jps (talk) 17:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning BabbleOnto
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by BabbleOnto
I would first like to begin by point out the person filing this complaint is involved in the content disputes at issue. They have frequently left "warnings" which read more like threats on my talk page and others' talk pages for people who disagree with them. Nor would I be the first person who would they would get banned from this topic for disagreeing with them.
To be honest I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm being charged with doing.
I think in general the user is alleging I've been uncivil, unhelpful, and, in their words, obstinate and tendentious. I know when someone disagrees with you it may feel like they're getting in your way and acting in bad-faith, but that's not always true. I've never tried to be disruptive or uncivil. I've admitted when I was wrong, I've dropped arguments that were clarified to be wrong, I've tried to find compromise, at times begging people to provide their sources and work together. And when those editors refused to, I didn't provoke any further.
I now address the specific edits in the complaint:
1. I don't see how this is sea-lioning. The user misquoted the article. I pointed out the misquotation, then addressed a accusation against me that I was second-guessing the sources (A claim which was never substantiated). I then said any source would have to support that actual claim which was in the article. I don't know what this violates.
2. I don't see how this is refusing to get the message (IDHT). The other party is making direct claims alleging I said something. I did not say it. I replied with what I actually said. What part of that interaction is saying "I didn't hear that?"
3. Admittedly probably the strongest of the four allegations. I'm not pretending I was perfect in all of my comments. I should have kept my criticism strictly to their argument. I ask you to read it in context and keep in mind you're viewing a hand-picked assortment of my worst edits, and this is the worst they could find. Also consider that conversation accused me of having a basic reading comprehension problem, perhaps you can see I lose my cool sometimes too.
4. I'm not even really sure what "railroading the discussion" means. Thus, to keep this section short and to save words, I don't know what I'm being accused of doing wrong here.
All of this has stemmed out of arguments over two sources. I have tried to find compromise, I have tried to negotiate, I have tried to build consensus. I've been going through the proper channels, I've been participating in the RfC, I've been discussing it on the ANI, I source every claim I make, for a month now I've been trying to constructively explain my side and defend my argument against challenges. It's incredibly frustrating to now be facing an Arbitration Enforcement on grounds that I'm not working with others. BabbleOnto (talk) 23:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Edited. BabbleOnto (talk) 23:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by ProcrastinatingReader
I've interacted with BabbleOnto in several threads. There's a few problems, but ultimately, I think they have a certain opinion on what the article should say, and will debate endlessly to get the article changed to their position. I mean, sure, reasonable people disagree on how to interpret sources and apply policy, but I don't think BabbleOnto is actually interested in faithful application of policies to write high quality articles based on good sources.
That's not terribly problematic by itself, but most discussions with BabbleOnto are exhausting. Rather than actually trying to understand someone's argument in good faith, I think BabbleOnto replies to editors by picking out parts of an argument, interpreting it in the most disfavourable way possible, and making a superficially reasonable response ad nauseam. They reply endlessly in this manner. As well as misrepresentation of opponents' arguments, on multiple occassions BabbleOnto has either misrepresented sources or hasn't read their own sources. I can't think of a single thread where BabbleOnto didn't have the last word, or a single thread where it seemed like BabbleOnto was actually trying to understand the arguments of other editors in a charitable way. As such, I think it's very difficult to work collaborately with BabbleOnto on the lab leak theory and related articles. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:07, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Newimpartial
As the editor to whom BabbleOnto was responding in the diffs of the filing, I feel compelled to comment now that they have defended (to varying degrees) their first three diffs. I will reply as briefly as I know how to their defense of the diffs, as revised.
1. BabbleOnto is now doubling down on the claim that I misquoted the article
. I didn't "misquote" the article - I didn't quote the article, and I explained what my comment meant in the rest of the (now collapsed) thread that ends here. Also, I provided a clear explanation of why I thought they were second-guessing sources later in the thread, but BabbleOnto never responded to that explanation. They are now responding to the accusation of WP:CPUSH with pure WP:IDONTHEARTHAT.
2. On this they say, now, that The other party is making direct claims alleging I said something. I did not say it.
This is repeating a misreading they made in the original thread, where they mistook a statement I made about another editor's comment as if it were about theirs. In this "defense", I see no attempt to read thoughtfully what other editors say in reply to them and revise their understanding accordingly; all I see is zero-sum mentality and WP:IDHT.
3. BabbleOnto is now justifying an edit where they said to me, You have a habit of inserting small lies into everything you say
and You're not adding anything constructive. You're just refusing to explain anything and saying conclusory statements, or lying about what you said
- all this based on a misreading of what I had actually written - because I was going to refer to a basic failure in reading comprehension
two hours later. This seems like a time travel paradox.
4. They don't bother defending themselves on this one, but just to point out the actual issue with the diff, they doubled down on their accusations that I said a material lie
, and that I lied when said that quoted the article out of context. Pointing out being caught lying
and then proceeded to STRAWMAN the rest of my comment to which they were replying. If they had read my prior comment with a reasonable level of attention, they would have understood that there were no "lies", just a misunderstanding or two in each direction. But WP:IDHT again; even in responding to this filing BabbleOnto is still insisting I did things that I quite obviously didn't do.
It is exhausting to deal with this kind of quasi-CPUSH (not quite civil, but certainly push) behaviour. The Talk page in question has seen a recent influx of single-purpose or nearly single-purpose POV accounts, and in terms of editor energy, this one certainly seems not to be a net positive for Misplaced Pages as a project. Perhaps if they edited away from Covid and US politics, their track record might improve. Newimpartial (talk) 03:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Objective3000
Just a quick aside to Valereee's aside: Contentious topics are a terrible place to learn....
Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory currently has posts from 19 editors lacking the edits for extended confirmed. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Valereee, this is also a problem at other CTOPs, and is likely to become more problematic. I assume due to off-Wiki forums. ECR might just produce more users gaming EC. I thought it would be useful to put your aside into the CTOP template at the top of CTOP TPs. But that assumes folks read it. Walt Kelly said something along the lines of: “If only I could write, I’d write a letter to the mayor, if only he could read." This discussion is likely better off elsewhere. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by JoelleJay
At the very least, can we get more admin involvement on the lab leak page so trolling like this doesn't disrupt things even more? JoelleJay (talk) 07:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by IntrepidContributor
I have been observing BabbleOnto and while there are valid concerns about bludgeoning, I think the proposed sanctions are too much. His engagement in the Covid lab leak topic is driven by commitment to WP:NPOV, which our articles fail to adhere to, and he made the mistake of arguing with editors who were never going to listen (resulting in what looks like sealioning on his part). He's not only editor to raise issues in the topic and engage in good faith discussion, only to find themselves pulled to AN or AE disputes after staying out of the seasoning traps and refusing to capitulate to threats. In a parallel AN case concerning another editor in same topic, I suggest there may be possible off-wiki coordination , but it can also be on-wiki ().
One need only cross-reference names from Feb 2021 RfC, checking those that voted for labeling COVID-19 lab leak as conspiracy, with the names of complainants here. Contrast all these old timers with the steady stream of tens if not hundreds of regular editors complaining that our article fails NPOV, and see that their gentle approach doesn't work . Our chief complainant is already preparing his next case , and this might not be his first.
I suggest that administrators consider a 1 to 2 month topic ban for BabbleOnto to provide opportunity for him to correct his approach, while staying alert to the tactics of POV editors trying to draw them into content debates to influence outcomes.
IntrepidContributor (talk) 14:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
Result concerning BabbleOnto
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- BabbleOnto, please edit your statement down further to fit within the restriction. This also serves as an opportunity to rephrase your defense, which currently is not convincing at first glance. ProcrastinatingReader's description of the situation seems quite apt, particularly
BabbleOnto replies to editors by picking out parts of an argument, interpreting it in the most disfavourable way possible
, which is currently a pretty fitting description of your response to them here, given that you zeroed in on the "superficially reasonable" part and ignored the much more serious parts of the testimony. signed, Rosguill 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)- Ok, having read through nearly every edit that BabbleOnto has made, I agree with the complainants that not only does BabbleOnto engage in sealioning, it appears to be almost exclusively what they do. The discussion at Talk:Brian Thompson (businessman)/Archive 2 exhibits perhaps even more concerning argumentation than the diffs provided in the initial report. Throughout these discussions, BabbleOnto tends to demand a standard of stating the obvious (with respect to the context of said sources) that is absurd, and continues to lawyer for such standards even when the situation becomes WP:1AM. When criticizing sources' ability to account for basic claims, I can find no examples of BabbleOnto themselves attempting to find sources that would resolve the issues they identify--this is uncollaborative behavior. There is a clear pattern of engaging in this behavior across recent US politics topics consistent with the scope of Misplaced Pages:Contentious topics/American politics. The only saving grace to BabbleOnto's track record is that none of this has translated into disruptive editing of actual articles, just unproductive engagement on talk pages. I am currently in favor of a topic ban from post-1992 American politics; if they are actually here to build an encyclopedia and not to provide a punching bag for debate club, they can use this opportunity to learn more constructive patterns of editing in topics that they are less personally invested in. signed, Rosguill 01:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Valereee in line with their follow-up response, I take Objective3000's comments as potentially a basis for community discussion rather than a call for protective action on the lab leak talk page right now. signed, Rosguill 21:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ok, having read through nearly every edit that BabbleOnto has made, I agree with the complainants that not only does BabbleOnto engage in sealioning, it appears to be almost exclusively what they do. The discussion at Talk:Brian Thompson (businessman)/Archive 2 exhibits perhaps even more concerning argumentation than the diffs provided in the initial report. Throughout these discussions, BabbleOnto tends to demand a standard of stating the obvious (with respect to the context of said sources) that is absurd, and continues to lawyer for such standards even when the situation becomes WP:1AM. When criticizing sources' ability to account for basic claims, I can find no examples of BabbleOnto themselves attempting to find sources that would resolve the issues they identify--this is uncollaborative behavior. There is a clear pattern of engaging in this behavior across recent US politics topics consistent with the scope of Misplaced Pages:Contentious topics/American politics. The only saving grace to BabbleOnto's track record is that none of this has translated into disruptive editing of actual articles, just unproductive engagement on talk pages. I am currently in favor of a topic ban from post-1992 American politics; if they are actually here to build an encyclopedia and not to provide a punching bag for debate club, they can use this opportunity to learn more constructive patterns of editing in topics that they are less personally invested in. signed, Rosguill 01:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have to agree, this looks like sealioning. BabbleOnto, you're new here, and I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt about your ability to learn to collaborate. WP works on collaboration and consensus, and sometimes consensus goes your way, sometimes it doesn't. You have to be willing to shrug, walk away, and go work on something else when consensus is against you. And you absolutely must not insist everyone else keep answering you until you're satisfied with their answers. I've seen editors at both the Thompson and the lab leak talks tell you they don't actually owe you an answer to your satisfaction.
- Do you think you can learn to do that? Because if you don't think you can, this may not be the right hobby for you.
- As an aside, I'm going to recommend what I always recommend to new editors who end up here: Contentious topics are a terrible place to learn. Go edit in noncontentious topics, where other editors are a lot less exhausted and have the energy to be more patient with new editors. Valereee (talk) 18:27, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Objective3000, hm, yes, and Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory also has 37 archives, and even with archiving at 21 days, 20 sections. Do you think an ECR is something that talk page needs? That's not part of the authorized restrictions an individual admin can place...hm, and I'm not sure of the policy w/re most efficiently getting that done and wasting the fewest people's time. @Rosguill? Valereee (talk) 21:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would object to ECPing the talk page. COVID-19 isn't subject to ARBECR generally, though this specific article is protected. The purpose of protecting the page (in this case) is to push newer users to the talk page, where they can discuss changes they want made (such as by edit requests) and contribute towards consensus-building while not edit warring. Protecting talk pages is truly, truly a last resort. Ordinary good faith people would be entirely shut out and silenced—we'd not even get edit requests—and I frankly don't see anything near the level of disruption/LTA abuse that would justify jumping straight to WP:ECP. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 01:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Red-tailed hawk, not ECP. ECR: non-EC are restricted from anything but making edit requests. Valereee (talk) 14:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see. In any case, ECR is the sort of remedy that should be reserved for more or less when all else fails—it’s still super restrictive. If new users/inexperienced users are trying to contribute towards consensus-building on the talk page (or even if they’re doing ordinary confused new editor things), and aren’t edit warring, I don’t think we’d actually be preventing disruptive edits by enforcing ECR.
- Suppose someone in good-faith sees “anyone can edit”, and they want to edit something topical. But then they see that the page that they want to edit is protected. They read the explanation that appears after clicking the “view source” tab. They then read that they can discuss this page with others, click on the first blue link, and then make a section using the “add topic” button in order to start a discussion.
- “OK”, the newbie thinks, “maybe I will find someone else who agrees with me, or I’ll at least get some answer as to why the article is this way”. They leave their computer and come back in an hour. They then discover that their question has been removed by some random editor with edit summary “WP:ARBECR violation, user not WP:XC; malformed edit request” and find a contentious topics notice on their own user talk page, all because they don’t make a properly formatted edit request (i.e. “please change X to Y”). Or maybe they wont navigate the talk page history and they’ll angrily post that their earlier comment was deleted. Or maybe they just won’t come back. To top it off, nothing at any point in this process was obvious to them that such a requirement existed—there is no edit notice that says so, and so they couldn’t know.
- WP:ECR is WP:BITEy. It dissuades new voices from joining conversations, and it makes it somewhat hostile to true newbies. In particular, it dissuades people who, for example:
- Are Not hardcore/insane enough to deal with intense wiki-bureaucracy;
- Are unable to cope with handling unfamiliar wikitext markup when making edit requests for anything that is not a trivial word change, or who have abstract changes in mind more than concrete ones;
- Do not want to spend an hour of their time to figure out how to say the magic words to summon another editor to fix a typo.
- The chief way that ECR works is by making LTAs/sockmasters have to put on a lot of effort or make a lot of edits. This raises the (time) cost of socking, and it has the benefit of possibly exposing tells along the way. But that also means that we’re imposing the same thing on good-faith newbies.
- When deciding whether or not to impose ECR, we have to balance that it is extremely BITEy to good-faith newbies against its ability to prevent disruption. There are times where we are basically left to throw our hands up because of LTA/sockmaster abuse, and conclude that the tradeoff is worth it; the ArbCom has done this for certain contentious topics. But, the ArbCom had the wisdom to not enable ECR as a page sanction across all contentious topic areas—there is a very real tradeoff that needs to be really carefully considered. And I don’t the tradeoff leans towards embracing ECR here. — Red-tailed sock (Red-tailed hawk's nest) 15:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm don't think we need to have this discussion here and now, but I don't disagree it's bitey and needs to be used only where necessary. I was just asking the question of someone who is working at that article: is this an article talk where it's necessary? Valereee (talk) 17:45, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Red-tailed hawk, not ECP. ECR: non-EC are restricted from anything but making edit requests. Valereee (talk) 14:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would object to ECPing the talk page. COVID-19 isn't subject to ARBECR generally, though this specific article is protected. The purpose of protecting the page (in this case) is to push newer users to the talk page, where they can discuss changes they want made (such as by edit requests) and contribute towards consensus-building while not edit warring. Protecting talk pages is truly, truly a last resort. Ordinary good faith people would be entirely shut out and silenced—we'd not even get edit requests—and I frankly don't see anything near the level of disruption/LTA abuse that would justify jumping straight to WP:ECP. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 01:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Objective3000, hm, yes, and Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory also has 37 archives, and even with archiving at 21 days, 20 sections. Do you think an ECR is something that talk page needs? That's not part of the authorized restrictions an individual admin can place...hm, and I'm not sure of the policy w/re most efficiently getting that done and wasting the fewest people's time. @Rosguill? Valereee (talk) 21:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
Marlarkey
Marlarkey p-blocked from Declaration of war and formally warned to be more mindful of policies, guidelines and best practices when editing CTOPs, particularly PIA signed, Rosguill 19:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Marlarkey
User has been on Misplaced Pages (on and off) since at least January 2010. It seems there is a WP:CIR-related issue on ArbCom PIA/Contentious topics, given the very clear lack of ignorance of the ArbCom Notification and subsequent edit summary arguments. I do not necessarily believe a block will be of use in this case, due to this editor's on-and-off Misplaced Pages editing status (less than 500 edits since January 2010). Either a topic ban and/or a 1,000 EC status requirement (i.e. EC-status requirement is something higher than 500 edits) is being requested. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Discussion concerning MarlarkeyStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by MarlarkeyWeatherWriter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is repeatedly reverting edits which are removing information outside the scope of the page in question. My edits are validly citated within the scope of the page. WeatherWriter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has cited WP:ARBPIA but that is not relevant to THIS article which is not a Palestine-Israel article. This article is not a contentious topic - it is factual. My edits are WP:NPOV. This article is about declarations of war - the opening statement states "A declaration of war is a formal act by which one state announces existing or impending war activity against another." 1. Hamas is not a nation state - So Israel vs Hamas should not be included in the article 2. Hezbollah is not a nation state - So Israel vs Hezbollah should not be included in the article 3. Russia vs Ukraine are both nation states - the question then is whether there has been a declaration of war. In the case 1 & 2, the removal of these two entries is WP:NPOV and the inclusion or otherwise in this article is in no way a comment on the conflict in question - only whether they constitute a declaration of war by one nation state on another. Which they do not because they are nation states. In the case of 3, the inclusion of Russia vs Ukraine only relies on whether there has been a declaration of war. The citation I gave is documented evidence of Russia announcing that a state of war exists between Russia and Ukraine. I suggest that by taking the action they have that the complainant is the one acting in a that asserts a political opinion about the conflict
Weatherwriter reversions of my edits serve to support a political opinion on a page which is about facts. I'm pretty angry about being accused in this way when MY edits were factually based and neutral point of view, whereas by reverting my edits it does precisely the opposite, allowing contentious and politically biased information to infect the page. GRRRRRRrrr Marlarkey (talk) 23:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Again this makes me angry at the accusations being made against me. If you don't want people editing and contributing to wikipedia then please just say so. GRRR Marlarkey (talk) 00:35, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
Result concerning Marlarkey
Marlarkey, you have gone a bit over your 500 word allotment for responses. Please do not comment further unless directly asked to. I will remove an additional reply that was both over your limit and in the wrong section. signed, Rosguill 00:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
I'm thus inclined to suggest an indefinite partial block from Declaration of war (but not its talk page) as a regular admin action for edit warring, and a logged warning to be mindful of CTOP standards. signed, Rosguill 04:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC
|
DanielVizago
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning DanielVizago
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Schazjmd (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- DanielVizago (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender_and_sexuality#Final_decision
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 29 Dec 2024 Added Category:Misandry to a BLP, after CTOP notification and several talk page messages notifying DanielVizago that the category is not to be applied to articles about individuals (per category description,
This category is for issues relating to misandry. It must not include articles about individuals, groups or media that are allegedly misandrist.
); - 4 Jan 2025 and 5 Jan 2025 Removing sourced content from Misogyny that states misandry is not a major an issue as misogyny;
- 5 Jan 2025 Changing content in Male privilege to emphasize misandry (reverted by another editor with edit summary
rv, poorly sourced (sources supplemented by WP:OR and WP:SYNTH), earlier version was better, closer to sources
); - 13 Jan 2025 Added "bimisandry" to Biphobia, citing 4 sources, none of which include that term;
- 14 Jan 2025, weird edits adding Category:Female rapists with piped names to unrelated articles, then added those names directly to the category page;
- 14 Jan 2025 restored the "bimisandry" edit to Biphobia, then added a 5th ref that includes the term but is just a blog; I left a 4th-level warning on talk page;
- 14 Jan 2025 (after final warning) adds ] and ] to Hurtcore; those two individuals don't have articles and there is no mention in this article of their charges or convictions, even though the category solely consists of
articles of female individuals who have been convicted of rape in a court of law.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- None
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- I alerted them on 28 Dec 2024
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Above diffs are all edits after the CTOP notification was provided. Before then, DanielVizago misapplied Category:Misandry to 46 articles, which is what caught my attention. Their attempts to add "bimisandry" to Biphobia started 16 Dec 2024. On 28 Dec 2024, DanielVizago added a lot of content to Supremacism about misandry, which another editor reverted with edit summary remove recently added pro-fringe section and put back the excerpt
. Most of their 122 edits have been reverted by multiple editors.
Before the level 4 warning, I tried guiding DanielVizago away from CTOP; they don't engage on their talk page. (They've posted there once, to say "thanks" in response to a warning.) With their refusal to communicate, poor sourcing, and non-NPOV edits, I don't think they should be editing in this topic area. Schazjmd (talk) 23:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning DanielVizago
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by DanielVizago
Statement by caeciliusinhorto
Since this report was opened, DanielVizago has continued to make questionable edits adding articles to Category:Female rapists.
- Possibly the worst edit, categorising a living person who has been accused (but not charged, let alone convicted) of sexual assault as a rapist (cf. WP:BLPCRIMINAL)
- This edit adds the category to a disambiguation page on the basis of one of the people listed on that page, who had in fact been convicted not of rape but of sexual activity with a minor
- this and this edit categorise two sexually-motivated murderers as rapists despite no evidence that they ever raped anyone in the article (cf. WP:CATV)
Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 10:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning DanielVizago
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I've p-blocked from article space to see if we can get this editor communicating. Valereee (talk) 12:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC)