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{{Press
| subject = talkpage
| author = Matthew Gault
| title = Misplaced Pages Editors Very Mad About Jimmy Wales' NFT of a Misplaced Pages Edit
| org = ]
| url = https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjbkvm/wikipedia-editors-very-mad-about-jimmy-waless-nft-of-a-wikipedia-edit
| date = 8 December 2021
| quote = The trouble began when Wales posted an announcement about the auction on his user talk page—a kind of message board where users communicate directly with each other.
}}
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==]==
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Happy New Year Jimbo!!! I hope all is well with you and your team.


Could you or your page watchers help me with ]? The draft has been declined and tagged up. It was then deleted years ago. I had it restored today after I came across one of his photos. I think he and his photography are fascinating for capturing aspects of New Zealand's transportation and industrial history. His work is in museum and library collections. At least one of his photographs has been used in a book. He photographed Maori sites.
(Old stuff cleared out.)


], standing beside a collection of Maori carvings, including two fire-screens, carved by her father Albert Percy Godber]]
|
I'm sorry I haven't been able to work the draft up enough to get it admitted to mainspace. It does make me wonder about what we do and don't include, our notability criteria, Articles for Creation (AfC) process, and collaborative ethos. Thanks so much for any help or guidance you can offer! Have a great 2025 and beyond. Thanks again. ] (]) 17:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
:If Godber is not ], which is what the draft reviewers say, then Wikipedians can't fix that. ] (]) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
::] is he "notable" and should we have an entry on him? ] (]) 17:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
:::I dunno, but ] wrote that the draft did not show significant coverage about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject at that point. ] (]) 19:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
]
::::And this a request to revisit his finding. We have a photographer from more than 100 years ago who documented areas of New Zealand's North Island. We have his work in a National Library collection. We have his work discussed as iconic for one of his Maori related photographs. We have his work revisited in a 2018 exhibition. We have descriptions of him related to his photographs, his career, and we have the photos themselves documenting the areas industries, sites, infrastructure from more than 100 years ago. If I was satisfied with the previous conclusions I would not be here. So I ask again, should we have an entry on this subject? Should we just attribute his photos where we use them to an unlinked name with no explanation or discussion of who he was? I think the answer is clear, and I wanted to hear Jimbo's opinion. I am aware of what was previously stated. Years have passed and I believe it's time to reevaluate and consider. I also think it's worth reflecting on our article creations processes more generally and how we apply our conception of "notability". ] (]) 23:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
*Godber's photographs include "views of the ] including large numbers of cars traveling to ], and the ]. Another group of images relate to a holiday at the ] Homestead in ] with scenes of farm life, including ], ] sheep, and farm buildings. During their stay in the South Island Godber also took photographs of Dunedin (including the ], ], ], the ], and the Hillside Railway Workshops); ] (including the Invercargill Railway Workshops); Stewart Island, ], ], ], ] and ]. Various railway stations in Canterbury and Otago, the ], and the Rosslyn Mills. Godber was a volunteer fireman with the Petone Fire Brigade with the album including views of the building, groups of firemen, fire engines and other fire fighting equipment, and a building in Petone damaged by fire. In his work with New Zealand Railways, mainly at the Petone Railway Workshops, he took interior photographs of various buildings, including the Machine Shop and finishing benches, the engine room, lathes, boilers, and fitting shops. He also took photographs of many of the steam engines that were built and worked on at the workshops. One scene shows a group of men watching a fight. Many images show his interest in logging railways, particularly in the ], ], ] area. Scenes of logging camps, various methods of transporting logs including bullock teams, logging trains, and dams created and then tripped to send logs down by river, and timber mills. Other topics covered in Godber's photographs are scenes at Maori ] and meeting houses, with some of the people identified; Maori carving and rafter designs; beekeeping, and gold mining." ] (]) 23:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
*It's hard to choose which photos to share. Historic views areas, industries, bridges, natural features, railways and bridges, crafts. to his photos on Misplaced Pages Commons. Many already illustrate our entries on various subjects. ] (]) 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
:: If you really want to help him, get a couple stories published about him in newspapers. Notability here will follow. ] (]) 01:23, 11 January 2025 (UTC)


== ==
'''Did you come here looking for something fun to do? Ok, now would be a good time to go speedy delete some images from "]" and "]". According to the new speedy deletion criterion (I just changed it), these can be deleted on sight when they have been on the site for at least 7 days.'''


For the interested. ] (]) 10:58, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
== Dershowitz legal threat ==


:Summary: {{tq|This document intends to show the problematic situation in Hebrew Misplaced Pages (hewiki), and provide evidence that it has been overtaken by a group of mostly religious and nationalist editors, who prevent others from achieving higher permissions while promoting their own allies.}} –] <small>(])</small> 22:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Can you confirm that the "very strong complaint" you received was from Alan Dershowitz or his staff? - ] 20:23, 9 December 2005 (UTC)


== Happy new year ==
Even if he doesn't, there's no denying that some dollar-hungry, savvy and perhaps fame-seeking (or -maintaining) attorney is going to eventually figure out that Misplaced Pages is low-hanging fruit with respect to a class-action defamation/libel suit...and ''how many'' Wiki articles are there, again...? (ka-ching!) And all-the-better that there's a constitutionality matter at hand regarding the supposedly legal protection extended to ISPs. Right...I'm sure that's in the Constitution somewhere. Perhaps the ever-useful Article 14...? ;-) --] 20:30, 9 December 2005 (UTC)


Good days, Jimbo. I'd like to say that Chinese Misplaced Pages is introducing ARBCOM System currently, since Arbcom on this project, and in fact all the project is originated from the idea of yours, do you have any opinion for that? Any hints, advice or suggestions? ] 15:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
:In the US, ambulance chasers usually focus on personal injury law, or (more recently) IP law. Defamation hardly even makes the grade. For every actual defamation suit there are ten thousand unfounded threats, which is why most people on the Internet don't take them very seriously. '']'' poses a very high barrier to slander or libel suits by public figures. And the legal protections extended to ISPs are statutory, they have nothing to do with the Constitution. If you're implying there is a constitutional right to sue for libel, you're wrong. In fact, the courts (from ''Times'' onward) have routinely held that libel suits must be restricted in order to avoid a chilling effect on protected expression under the First Amendment. ] 22:54, 9 December 2005 (UTC)


== ==
::Thank you, counselor. But, do you truly think that, today, Herr Dershowitz is convinced of your line of reasoning regarding due process and equal protection? Or the former editorial-page editor & founder of USA Today...? Or members of the Supreme Court of the United States, such as Antonin Scalia (who has specifically spoken against your arguments)...? If you're assessment is wrong, and correspondingly Misplaced Pages does not take action to reel-in some of the over-the-top nonsense, and the courts (eventually) go against them...what then? Platitudes? "Sorry, that was such an unfair ruling."? --] 23:23, 9 December 2005 (UTC)


That doesn't sound good. From '']''. ] (]) 09:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
:Clearly you are a bitter, bitter person. --] 22:01, 9 December 2005 (UTC)


:Being discussed at ]. ] (]) 10:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
::Actually, I am a lighthouse. A fairly compassionate one. One which is steadily, cyclically, unrelentingly warning that there are shoals here that the unwary need to pay attention to, and which if ignored will result in tragic drama. I wish for nothing but succcess for Misplaced Pages, but see serious trouble in the offing. I'd be a bitter, bitter person if I said or did nothing. --] 23:23, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
::Thanks! ] (]) 11:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
::Also discussed at ] and ]. ] (]) 19:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)


Jimbo, could I ask you please to respond to from {{u|Tryptofish}}?
== Question... ==
:... it's not just if you've edited about Israel-Palestine. It could be if you've edited anything about climate and fossil fuels, gender, immigration, vaccines, and of course, American politics. I doubt that they have the bandwidth to actually identify and harass every editor who could possibly be seen as editing information that goes against a MAGA POV, but they will likely find some easily identified targets, whom they will use to "set an example", as a way of instilling fear in our editing community. I fully expect that, in the coming months, {{u|Jimbo Wales}} will be hauled before a hostile and performative Congressional hearing, much in the manner of university presidents. I hope very much that he will be better prepared than ] was.
:Yeah, I know this is grim. But I believe the first step in dealing with this is to go into it with our eyes open, to know what we are dealing with, what motivates it. And, more than harming individual editors, the real objective of Heritage ''et al.'' is to instill fear in the rest of us. If we become too fearful to revert POV edits, they win. In a very real sense, we have to keep doing what we have been doing, and continue to be a reliable resource for NPOV information. --] (]) 18:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
] (]) 05:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC)


:Well, I fully agree that developments in terms of arguments and actions aimed at destroying trust in knowledge (and of course our specific interest, trust in Misplaced Pages) are extremely worrisome, particularly as I agree that for many who are doing it, the motive does appears to be the undermining of civic norms and democracy. I also agree with Tryptofish in a part that you didn't quote: "In a narrow sense, it's technically true that if you "out" yourself, there's no point in anyone else doing it. But once your identity is known, you become vulnerable to all of the kinds of real-life harassment that doxed people find themselves subjected to. It doesn't matter, in that regard, how they found out your identity." That's a sad balancing act that no Wikipedian should have to face.
I have a question; how come everyone but Jimbo Wales answers most questions? See ]... ] 21:44, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
:As a side note, I don't think that the reliability of the Heritage Foundation as a source is particularly related to these despicable actions. Whether they should be considered a reliable source in some matters is really unrelated to whether they hate us or not.--] (]) 14:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
::Suddenly ] going to court to get user-data seems like the model of gentlemanly behavior. ] (]) 11:51, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
:::{{tq|That's a sad balancing act that no Wikipedian should have to face.}} Unfortunately, the scales have been inexorably slipping out from beneath the foundation's abilities or willingness to protect its volunteers for my entire wiki-career. There's no balancing force at work. The private equity community has made gadflies out of what we used to label reliable local news media; Alphabet and Meta are actively coopting precision, privacy, and the public domain, while attempting to minimize the effectiveness of good faith actors like Internet Archive. Now suddenly en.wikipedians are facing the sort of personal threats long experienced by volunteers at ru.wiki and zh.wiki. The forces now arrayed against free information don't need to be actively coordinating in order to rapidly bring us to 2+2=5 territory. Any established editor could reasonably see Western culture has been under relentless attack for a long time. Here comes the Heritage Foundation's leaks, hot off Heritage's bangup release of Project 2025, leaking articles through partisan outlets apparently intended to make it appear (in one case) the ADL's recent reliability downgrade at RSNP was anyone else's fault but the ADL's own writings and actions. The news of such activity appears to threaten the community members directly and personally. ] (]) 13:26, 11 January 2025 (UTC)


== ] ==
Because Jimbo is lazy! ;-) --] 21:48, 9 December 2005 (UTC)


Hey Mr. Wales, there's a discussion on ] about what image should be used on your Misplaced Pages entry. Figured you may want to chime in with personal opinion about the recent freely-licensed images of you that are presented, as there hasn't been much engagement there at the time of my post. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 21:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
:What has the world come to!!!! ] 22:13, 9 December 2005 (UTC)


== ''The Signpost'': 15 January 2025 ==
::Reminds me of a quote -- ''"In fact, I think Linus's cleverest and most consequential hack was not the construction of the Linux kernel itself, but rather his invention of the Linux development model. When I expressed this opinion in his presence once, he smiled and quietly repeated something he has often said: 'I'm basically a very lazy person who likes to get credit for things other people actually do.' Lazy like a fox. "'' - ], ], http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/ar01s03.html


<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2025-01-15}} </div><!--Volume 21, Issue 1--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 07:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div>
: Start a world tour, and appear on international news networks, and then tell me why you don't answer every question on your user talk page. -- ]
<!-- Message sent by User:JPxG@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Signpost/Subscribe&oldid=1269316164 -->

::Okay.... Wait done that..... Well '''''I''''' manage to reply to everyone.... =) ] 07:54, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

==Regarding Xed==

You may misunderstand my argument... the point is not that Xed is acting in bad faith, but rather that it is an assumption of bad faith on Xed's part to write off concerns with the article on the grounds that the complainer is Dershowitz - particularly when that is not clear. This has been the issue with Xed in both of his arbitration cases - that his default assumption about anyone - particularly anyone who disagrees with him - is that they are acting in bad faith.

Oh, and you shouldn't edit people's evidence sections. ;) ] 22:11, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

::Please move my comment to where it should be, I'm sorry. I'm not very experienced at RfC's actually. --] 00:17, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

:::lol. I'll just file under "Jimbo can do whatever he wants." ] 01:05, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

:As someone has mentioned to me, there is a difference is between "assuming bad faith" and "reasonable suspicion". Snowspinner seems to assume everything I do is in bad faith (bad faith in itself). The bullying has to end. - ] 22:41, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

::Come on, Xed. Give us a break. You aren't being bullied, and you very often show bad faith and you very often do things to be disruptive. No one, least of all Snowspinner, assumes that '''everything''' you do is in bad faith. But enough of it is that we're getting sick of it. --] 00:17, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

::Without taking any position on Xed or his behavior (about which I know little and care less), I think his question is reasonable, and I want to hear the answer. Did Dershowitz threaten us? ] 22:55, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

:::No, Dershowitz did not threaten us. In my opinion, there was a misunderstanding here. But there was no threat.--] 00:18, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
::::He did however contact Jimbo with a "strong complaint". Dershowitz, or his assistant, edited his own article, removing unflattering info and adding flattering info. Then he was banned. Presumably, he then complained to Jimbo, who deleted most of his article and allowed only admins to edit it.

::::Looking thru the history of Alan Dershowitz (note:older edits have been moved to ] for unexplained reasons), you'll see on the 5th, 6th and 7th of December several edits by three users:
::::* ]
::::* ]
::::* ]
::::* ]

::::The IP numbers come from ] - probably Dershowitz or his assistant Mitch Webber. A member of Misplaced Pages has identified "FakeName" as the same person as whoever the IPs are. FakeName has been banned, see his talk page

::::"FakeName" makes a legal threat here:

::::These are a couple of edits that the Harvard vandal makes:

::::* (Lengthy addition of all awards he has received and how wonderful he is)

::::* (removed info on conflict with finkelstein)

::::Other edits from the Harvard vandal include complete or partial blanking of the article

::::-] 00:43, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

:::::There are different kinds of threats. I doubt that Jimbo would react positively to a lawsuit threat. But hypothetically if somebody said, "last year I gave the Misplaced Pages foundation $50,000, and if you don't fix this article I'll stop giving and tell other people to stop giving", that could be more persuasive. I don't know if something remotely like that happened, but it would explain things. ] 11:00, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
::::::I don't think that happened. Dershowitz is a man with powerful friends. He can also muster up a legal argument where none really exists (he did get ] off the hook after all). Jimbo is probably just a bit over-awed. It just means less powerful people can't alter their articles, but if you are powerful - well go ahead and vandalise it and afterwards we'll make sure you like it. I should note that I now have evidence that Dershowitz, or the computer he usually uses, was the source of some of the vandalism. - ] 11:11, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

==A sincere question==
On ] you asked to "''verify very carefully, with documentable sources, every single fact in the article''." Misplaced Pages policy and guidelines were apparently designed to provide rules and guidance so as to ensure content integrity which in turn should be a clear reference point to eliminate or at least minimize unnecessary discussion. However, the reality is that these policies and guidelines are frequently ignored or given their own spin to suit an agenda. Policy isn't worth much if there is no mechanism to enforce it, hence my sincere question is: Why not draw upon the considerable (volunteer) expertise of Wikipedians who have demonstrated the capabilities and an NPOV history, along with any volunteers from those who made the substantial effort to create those policies and guidelines, to form a policy review/referral committee? The formation for such a Committee could be done in the same manner as you proposed at ]. Thank you. - ] 22:22, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

While I'm at it, Mr. Wales, a ] is urgent and essential. Like professional codes, or those required by many corporations and organizations, it must be simple and straightfoward and anyone who serves on the committee must first acknowledge the Code and agree to abide by it. (Note: Since I posted this, someone created the article without my knowledge.) - ] 18:09, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

:This user has been involved in several other activities ], and ]. Most of this involves attempting to impose rather strict standards on other users. In the Onefortyone cases this involved deletion of all information which related to homosexual or bisexual activities of several celebrities regardless of the source cited. In the case of James Dean a google search for "James Dean" and "bisexual" returns over 100,000 hits which probably justifies some mention of rumors. ] 02:00, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

:In my opinion, User ] now tries to create a diversion from the fact that he is constantly deleting well-sourced contributions by others simply because he doesn't agree with them. Ted Wilkes has been harrassing me for months. He repeatedly deleted edits which were well sourced (see , , , , , , , , ) and aggressively attacked users and even administrators and members of the arbitration committee if their opinions were not in line with his personal view. It should also be noted that Ted Wilkes repeatedly violated the 3RR in the past and was blocked for doing so. See, for instance, . There is much evidence that Ted Wilkes is identical with multiple hardbanned ] alias ]. This is of much importance. Both users have very similar editing interests and the same aggressive attitudes. He repeatedly called me a vandal, a liar, etc. and falsely claimed that my edits are fabricated, unfounded, or unwarranted and therefore must be removed. For a summary of the facts, see . What makes me so sure that Ted Wilkes is identical with ] alias ]?
*On '''7 November 2003''', ], another alias of DW and obviously an Elvis Presley fan like Ted Wilkes, deleted a passage relating to a claim by David Bret that Elvis may have had a sexual relationship with actor ], a claim also supported by some other sources. See . The same user added some denigrating remarks on Bret's book to the related discussion page, which were similar to those later written by Ted Wilkes. See .
:In November 2003, NightCrawler was hardbanned. See . But NightCrawler reappeared as ] creating a new, denigrating article on biographer David Bret. See . This biased article was rewritten by me on 4 April 2004. See . In the meantime, JillandJack was hardbanned.
*On '''20 April 2005''', some different comment concerning author David Bret and his book was added. See . This was repeatedly deleted by IP 66.61.69.65. See, for instance, , , . Administrator ] was forced to restore this comment. See .
*Since '''May 2005''' there was an edit war between Ted Wilkes and me concerning the article on ] and particularly his book, ''Elvis: The Hollywood Years'', presumably because of Bret's claim that Elvis may have had homosexual leanings - a claim Ted Wilkes didn't like from the beginning. See .
:On 5 May, Ted Wilkes reinstated, without further commentary, the biased version by JillandJack thereby deleting a link to a positive ''Guardian'' review of a book written by Bret. See . Significantly, Ted Wilkes repeatedly reverted the article to the version he preferred, i.e., exactly the version JillandJack had created, accusing me of distortions, fabrications, being a vandal, etc. See , , , , , , , , , , etc.
*Further, both Ted Wilkes and JillandJack contributed to many articles on American singers and entertainers such as ] (see ), ] (see ), ] (see ), ] (see ), ] (see ), ] (see ), ] (see ), ] (see ), ] (see ) and ] (see ). They also contributed to very specific articles such as ], ] and ] (see , and ).
*Both Ted Wilkes and JillandJack seem to be interested in horse racing and contributed to the article, ] (see ).
*For much experience with the aggressive behavior of ] alias ], you may ask administrator ]. ] 06:44, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

::It is difficult to definitely verify Onefortyone's contention that Ted Wilkes represents the same person as DW. DW has not edited for a very long time. He logged in from Canada and was especially interested in French and Quebec subjects. Ted Wilkes does not seem to share this interest but checkuser shows he does log in from Canada. I'm not sure I trust the chain of users Onefortyone puts forth as proof. ] 14:03, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

:::It should be noted that DW used different nicknames to write about different subjects. For his contributions on celebrities, he especially used the nicknames of "NightCrawler" and "JillandJack". Just a question. Are the IPs 66.186.250.106 and 66.61.69.65, which have deleted some of my contributions and denigrated my sources, also logging in from Canada? See , , , and . ] 13:03, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

::My thought is that the concern he raises is important and should be taken seriously, but not to the extent he has carried it in his struggles with Onefortyone, who I should point out is currently on ] due to advancing information which was either original research or back by unreliable sources. ] 14:03, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Mr. Bauder - Your committees unanimous conviction of Onefortyone has nothing to do with my suggestion. I'm saying that such a Committee is badly needed so as to institute the kind of measures essential to restore Misplaced Pages's rapidly declining reputation. In my suggestion on this page to Mr. Wales, I never mentioned "views." Such a Committee would be there to enforce/rule upon existing policies and guidlines - not, mine, not yours, or not anyone who uses Misplaced Pages for ]. Look at those policies, some very sincere contributors went to a lot of work creating them, but they are repeatedly being ignored and are meaningless. It needs thought, planning etc, but this Committee might also elaborate/modify policies as required or consider new, articulated proposals -- all designed to create Misplaced Pages articles of integrity. - ] 17:23, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

He just needs to be on notice regarding your history. ] 19:24, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

: Why can't his idea stand on its own merits? (] 05:01, 11 December 2005 (UTC))

==Defamatory page histories==
Jimmy, please look at ]. ] 02:22, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

== Emergency! ==
Jimbo! Thank god you're all right! I rushed over here as fast as my megabytes would carry me! On your userpage, you say edit your page to get it to look as good as ]. Nonsense, Mr. Jimbo! Your page should look like mine and Cool Cats! Now, ''those'' are perfect userpages. Carefully crafted and sculpted to the upmost quality...Full of beautiful info boxes...and most important, have a sense of humor and attiditude! Please reconsider that statement and join the <s>dark</s> better side of userpage designs. :) -] 19:04, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

==Account Deleation==
I would like my account deleated pleas. My account is ]. Thank you.

== Wikinews Germany ==

Dear Jimbo Wales, as I first heard of your wiki-projects I thought for myself: That's kinda good thing! Really! But after I worked for 4 month at the German Wikinews I was told, that '''there are no rules, that have to be followed'''. Even if the community itself decides its own rules by discussion and by election, they have never to be followed by all users. I'm sure, that not all users want to follow rules, but that should never end up with a unwritten law in a wiki, that every user may edit every page as he wants to without having to respect the rules the community set up. If a user has a problem with one or another rule, he should try to discuss it with the other users and should try to change the rule by discussion and election. If he does not and just ignores the rules, he should be stopped by Administration Force. I told the folks at the German Wikinews my view, but they always said: "We are a wiki. Everybody may change what he feels like". That's something I can't believe. It means, that nobody can be stopped violating pages, because he is free to do, what he wants. With best regards --] 13:39, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

== Rule Idea ==

Hey jimmy just an idea, and maybe this rule is already in place but why not require registered users to caegorize or at least link there articles in some, way, shape or form. this way bum articles might stand a better chance of bieng picked up.] 20:26, 11 December 2005 (UTC)]] 20:26, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

*Agreed. --<small>''']''']</small> 20:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

== We should have forums! ==

Jimbo, I think that Wiki should have an official forum where people could discuss different topics - including off-topic discussions. I believe this would benefit our community, because:

# The community would get closer and grow as members would learn to know each other better;
# Discussions would be posted in a chronological matter, instead as we have now on the talk pages, where everyone can add their comment anywhere in the discussion;
# The forums would serve some of our needs to socialize and relax; and not just discuss article-related topics or things that only relate to Wiki;
# Since we unite many of the members into one compact place, we would have better resources at our hands; members could organize themselves better and agree on Wiki content. I did this by starting a ], and, in less than one week, we had 25 members contributing and helping each other out. A forum would intergrate all kind of members into one single portal!

If you worry about bandwith, then you should choose a free forum, but let it be a decent one. What do you think? --] 21:10, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
:That's what IRC is for. ] 21:11, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
::: IRC is a chat software that I do not like. Isn't it Applet, or something? Besides, in a forum, you can keep track of things that have been said. You can post your thoughts in an organized matter; and you can post a lot of info at once. In a chat, it's more about personal interaction between members. Everything is spontaneous. IRC is fine, but it can't replace the forum. --] 21:45, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
::I would not mind if talk pages were replaced in forum formatt for ease of reading and NO EDIT CONFLICTS...yay!!!:)''']'''</font><sup>]|]|]</font></sup> 21:23, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
:::But you never get edit conflicts if you do "add section" instead of "edit". Forums aren't usually more flexible than "add section". &mdash; ] 21:28, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*And that's what we have '''talk pages'' for. -] 21:24, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
::Generally, we stay on topic for a while and indent, instead of created hordes of big ugly titles for each posts. That is were the edit conflicts come in. Having the forum option to make a post that anyone can edit would be useful for vote tallies though.''']'''</font><sup>]|]|]</font></sup> 21:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

There are various portals (see ]) and (no offense but) I think this talk page has evolved into the most watched noticeboard. ] <small>]</small> 22:00, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
:: Okay, so where's the forum? Where are the discussions? That page is only to advertise for projects, etc. In my opinion, it would be good for the members to have a place where they can debate anything. --] 22:04, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
:::There are many portals and noticeboards related to various topics, but ]. ] <small>]</small> 23:04, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
:::: Well, I knew that already. Forums would have a different role in the interaction between members. A forum is more flexible to these things, instead as we're having it now; a whole big mess spread everywhere. --] 23:21, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Getting a professional ] or ] would be a great idea, Misplaced Pages is not so suited towards debates and discussions because of the fact that talk pages are well, not very organised definitely not as much as forums with easy to read different threads and forum subsections, and the fact that people can edit other peoples' posts

I think it would be a really good idea too and would encourage a lot more debate and contributions/growth to Misplaced Pages --] 22:43, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

== ATTN: Non-encyclopedic content ==

] contains many articles that are not inherently encyclopedic. I think this is obvious. Just bringing it to your attention. ] 21:43, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
:May I kindly ask why..? It is incorrect conjecture to think Jimbo will edit the articles or anything to that affect. Why not talk to members who participate in the constuction of articles such as this..? I would be glad to discuss the issue with you; I am working on that situation right now. I don't think this is the right place to discuss something like that.-] 21:58, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
::Wales recently deleted a large portion of a certain Misplaced Pages project due to non-encyclopedic content. Moreover, many people visit this talk page, and so Wales' Talk page is more like a bulletin board than a Talk page. ] 06:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
:::Adraeus, I'm not sure what you are talking about. I haven't recently deleted a large portion of anything anywhere. Perhaps you were told wrongly?--] 22:56, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

:::You still didn't answer my question though...what will Jimbo do to remedy the situation..? This is not an area of paticular interest (or expertise) for him, and this is something you should ''really'' bring to someone's attention who dabbles in the construction of these paticular articles. This may have "transmogrified" into a "bulliten board", but that doesn;t mean its meant to address every little thing that comes to mind.-] 07:04, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
::::What Wales does is up to him, wouldn't you agree? By the way, I've found that editors of primarily entertainment articles aren't oriented towards developing the encyclopedia. Most are simply not qualified to add content to Misplaced Pages. Since most of these editors do not pay attention to editing standards, this Talk page is effective for reaching the right people. And I'd say that the issue of Misplaced Pages turning into an FAQs archive for every little piece of data regardless of notability is of great importance to the founder. ] 07:13, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

*Yes, I do, but not ''everyone'' is "un-qualified" as you put it, and some of us really do try to check sources, evaluate thesis, write proper conjecture, etc. I am only saying Jimbo will most likely not address this- look at all the new mail aon this page; some of the above haven't even been answered by him yet. I just think this is the incorrect place to post if you want something done about your situation. On the other hand, I will be glad to work on those articles when I goet the time.-] 07:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
*:It's not a matter of adding to articles. It's a matter of removing articles that are non-notable. This means going through a lot of red tape, courtesy of the Misplaced Pages bureaucracy. ] 07:21, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

*Then this is the wrong place entirely. For that, go ].- ] 07:23, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
*:I really have neither the time nor the patience to go through the red tape; hence, this message to Wales. ] 07:27, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

*I don't quite understand. If you have nethier the time or the patience to deal with a problem like this, then you shoudn't have brought it up. I'm not trying to be offensive or anything, mind you, but if you can't do something about it, why make a thesis..? Make an effort first, then ask for help. Also, if you're interested, I would be glad in helping you put them up for deletion- there are thousands of people on wikipedia, and Jimbo is not the only one who can help with a situation like this.-] 07:32, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

::Well, I am concerned about such articles to an extent, mostly on the grounds of worrying about whether they can be adequately verifiable, but I'm of course not about to mass delete anything just because I'm personally not sure I would vote 'keep'.--] 22:56, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

== Making the internet not suck ==

]

What do you think? I made it to appeal to the ] crowd and such. I'm not sure if it should go into ]. --]]]] 22:08, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
: Wow, that's a lot of different fonts :-) It's a great idea. Could you also try one with just one or two "boring" fonts? Counterintuitively, if you do it just right, it might actually look even cooler. ] 07:44, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

== Talk to me? ==

People (] ( and ] () have kept saying that I should talk to you. I'm not convinved that you should get involved, but they know better than me. About , , but mainly . Yeah, well that was all a rather bad idea. I guess lots of editting takes it toll after a while. So I make things lite-hearted, with little jokes to fool my fellow editors, testing the system and all that. Yeah it's immature, sure. I obviously don't take Wiki as serious as others, but that was all I editted for anyway, was to curb boredom. To be honest, I wasn't treating it like you were, as the future of encyclopedias or anything. Just as a bit of (intellectual) fun. Maybe I should take another wikibreak for a few weeks again? That did the trick for a while last time, and when I came back I had new projects to do (). So I guess I'll be back in the new year. And will try to resist the temptation of making new sockpuppets (which, to be honest, I could do quite easily, I got a "roaming" (at least i think that's what it's called) IP adress AND a university owned one which has other learned users sharing it, which they've been unwilling to keep blocked.

:I copied this from Meta for Wonderfool. --] 22:46, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

== Wikinews Interview, re: language versions other than Enlish ==

From the :
{{cquote|
; I'm a contributor mostly on the Swedish projects. You don't speak Swedish, so I'm wondering if you ever look at non-English projects? Do you even notice us?

: :)

: I am learning to speak German, so I do try to read German Misplaced Pages. And I do look at other languages, although of course I can't read anything there.

: What I do to try to be useful to other languages is communicate with people as much as I can, visit people in person as much as I can, and monitor the statistics pages to see what is going on.}}

I would imagine that every language version has someone who can represent it in discussions about issues that affect it, and all of Wikimedia. You saw what happened what happened with Seigenthaler. What if a similar issue were to arise on the Japanese version of Misplaced Pages. Could someone from the Japanese wiki go on ] and defend the wiki much like you just did on CNN? Like you said, "it's just news", and gives us more publicity, but still, projecting a professional image to the media will only encourage people to be more intrigued by Misplaced Pages, and other Wikimedia projects. ] 23:25, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

== Class action prep against Misplaced Pages ==
This Class action preparation is outrageous, can someone please stop it.
It even has a logo abuse. ] 23:51, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
:www.wikipediaclassaction.org redirects to some newswire, albeit one with the Seigenthaler scandal high on the list. No doubt Willy on Wheels would join that thing. <nowiki></nowiki> &mdash; ] | ] 00:06, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
:: Stop what? How could anyone stop that and why should it be stopped? They have the right to criticize Wiki. --] 00:10, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
:Is this your web site? ] 00:27, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
::: Are you talking to me or to Ricky? --] 00:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
:::: As indicated by the indentation level, I was talking to ]. ] 01:01, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

:Personally, I only take seriously class action lawsuits from people who can use commas properly. ] 08:25, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

::It wouldn't make sense for Seigenthaler to write the site, as he said he wasn't gonna sue Chase, so why would he sue Misplaced Pages? Brandt could be the author, and if he is, who cares? Not to bait him or anything, but he's a guy who runs an organization for internet privacy and then he tracks down editors to find their name and location. I doubt he has much leverage. ]]] (]) ] 08:44, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

:Also discussed at ]. This looks like hot air to me, and I can see that the website has since been removed. ] | ] 11:35, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
::It's still up as of my timestamp. ] 15:29, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
:::You are correct, it is up again after having been down. ] | ] 21:21, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

picked up by Google News, from ZDNet, on this.--] <sup><font color="green">]</font></sup> 23:07, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

<font size="5">NOTICE:</font>
This class action lawsuit is by the scammers at BAOU Trust the people behind the fake indonesia quake charity ]. Per whois:
:Registrant Name:Jennifer Monroe
:Name Server:DNS1.BAOU.COM
:Name Server:DNS2.BAOU.COM
:Name Server:DNS3.BAOU.COM
The reason this is popping up everywhere is because they run their own "newswire" which is carried by Google's News service. We at wikipedia are a target because we exposed them for the fraud they are. &nbsp;]]] 00:02, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

:Even if it weren't authored by scammers, there'd be no credible threat of a class action here. A class action is appropriate when the putative class has a large number of members and, in the adjudication of those individual claims, common questions of law or fact will predominate. I don't think that the number of people bringing defamation claims would be large enough to meet the numerosity requirement. Even if they were, defamation claims are obviously ones in which individual questions predominate. The issues include: What statements were made about Siegenthaler (or Ellison, or Sollog, or whoever); were the statements about this particular plaintiff true; and to what extent was this particular plaintiff damaged by any false statements that were published. The only rationale for slinging around the term "class action" is that it might get the threat more attention. (Although I haven't researched this particular issue and this comment isn't an opinion letter, I'm a lawyer who's been on both sides of class actions -- trying to get a class certified, and trying to block certification. In this hypothetical lawsuit, I would ''much'' rather be opposing certification.) ] 00:44, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
::::I was merely indicating WHY we are their target... not that they have a valid claim! &nbsp;]]] 17:02, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

::Just ''what'' would be the actual defined class for the suit? Normally, in class actions, it's something that's clearly, objectively defined, such as "Persons who purchased between ", and it is alleged that they all suffered similar harm as a result of the defendant's actions. But what would it be here? "People who have been defamed on Misplaced Pages"? But it's up to a judge and jury to decide if something is defamation in each individual case; there's no grounds to presuppose it in advance to build a class action. Or is it "People who have been ''mentioned'' on Misplaced Pages"? But most of these people haven't suffered any harm, or have any actionable claim; many are actually happy that they are mentioned in this site, as it strokes their ego; many others don't care one way or the other. I can't see any judge accepting any such class. Nor can I see any judge doing what the site in question wants them to do, that is imposing prior restraint on future speech by Misplaced Pages editors through court-mandated changes in Misplaced Pages policy. That would be struck down as unconstitutional by the appeals courts if they did it. ] 02:30, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
:::Just a comment, not on class action, but personal action. If a person in, say, New Zealand is defamed on Wiki, and the contributor used his own genuine name in his sig, then the contributor who is living in NZ can be personally sued for defamation in NZ. No? ] 03:01, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
::::Read ] before doing anything else. Then see if you have a friend or colleague - perhaps at work - who is somewhat knowledgable about local defamation law, who can tell you if it's worth an initial consultation with a lawyer.-] 05:15, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

:::::I agree with gadfium's implication that the answer to Moriori's question would depend on New Zealand law. I should have specified that my comment above was based on U.S. law, specifically on class actions under the ] and the analogous state rules. ] 06:43, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

==myopinion==
Jimbo et al, in an ideal world wikipedia would be ideal. However, the world sucks and is populated by idiots and a$$holes. You need to get something working on this site so that only authorities can publish articles. I dunno, maybe a universal student number or letter of verification that an editor is indeed someone in the academic or research community.. whatever... But like I said, in an ideal world.....

== Czech Misplaced Pages ==

Hi Jimbo. On Saturday I was on Wikimedia Poland plenary assembly and one of polish colleague told me, you recently told, you have no contact to czech community and asked for contact to anybody on czech Misplaced Pages. Well I was quite surprised, because I visit #wikimedia every once in a while. Maybe you just didn't know, where I am from.

So, I am sysop of cs.wiki and I am also ambassador of czech Misplaced Pages for polish and english language users. Feel free to contact me anytime you want; preferably on my ]. Live long & prosper --] 09:00, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

== Communism ==
Hi! One thing I wondered about for a while: you have the Che Guevara image on your user page. Are you a communist or something? --] 14:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
:I think Che was more better known as a revolutionist than just a communist. Pic's cool nontheless. :) --] <sup>] | ] ]</sup> 15:06, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
:Err, it's just a joke. At least, I think it is. :P --](<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 15:08, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
:I certainly ''hope'' it is :) Still, I would say that Che is well-known as a communist revolutionist. --] 16:37, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
::Jimbo is a man of the Right. A "gun rights" supporter, capitalist and Ayn Rand fan. He certainly aint no Che. &mdash; ] 16:52, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

== Arbcom Election ==
Um, hey. What's going on with that? ] 17:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
*I'm worried that waiting any longer may result in a strong selection bias for however the election goes, unless it is moved to 2006. A number of students end up going home around this time of year, with limited internet access, and a number of adults are going to be paying more attention to the holidays and turning of the year than wikipedia. I suggest you either close the poll and get the ball rolling, or announce that the elections will occur in January. --] 19:44, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
** Agreed. Time is running out... ]]<sup>(] - ])</sup> 21:29, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
** With all the recent bad publicity, can't decide if you want the same old gang of troll coddlers re-elected, eh Mr Wales? :) ] 21:36, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Jimbo, in all seriousness, there is no realistic way to do this on a proper timetable unless we use the old process. We can discuss changes in the process all through next year. ] 04:47, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

:Hello! I disagree with EK that last year's process is ''precisely'' the way to go, but we need to decide this quickly, clarify, devise a process, and implement. That is, if this is gonna happen this year.

:I'm willing to assist with whatever mode is chosen and to help organise: ] ... this took a couple months in total, so ...

:What say you? :) ] 18:07, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

== Communication and site changes ==

I agree that people need to try and assume good faith more often with you and the changes you make on the site. However, I think that a lot of people may be reacting with hostility because they perceive the user base as hearing about major changes through the news media before they hear about it from you/from wikipedia. Maybe there is some way this could be improved on, such as a feature similar to the new message notification which alerts all editors to new announcements, and you could then use that announcement channel to notify us about new features (hopefully before the media does :)? ] 20:03, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

== Hasenjagd ==
*Have fun with this special kind of new (or old?) German bolshewik humour:

http://de.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Vandalensperrung&diff=prev&oldid=11367727#Unscheinbar
''Version vom 01:23, 6. Dez 2005 Jesusfreund (Diskussion | Beiträge) PRUUUST - verschoben ins Humorarchiv, Überschrift "der ganz normale Wahnsinn im Adminalltag". Selten so gelacht...''

cu 17:04, 6 December 2005 (UTC)


* And now an anti bolshewik joke:

::::''Ich sehe das nicht so, denn Hans Bugs Kritik hat eine wichtige Funktion. Sie stört einzelne, aber für das Wohlergehen des Projekts ist sie wichtig. -- ] 15:46, 7. Dez 2005 (CET)
:::::''Ahja? Also mir hat seine "Kritik" bei der Erstellung einer Enzyklopaedie noch nie geholfen... --] 15:47, 7. Dez 2005 (CET)
::::::''dito. --]] 15:48, 7. Dez 2005 (CET)
::::::: ''Nicht überraschend. Die Funktion ist die eines Kammerjägers. Ungemütlich für das Ungeziefer. --] 16:26, 7. Dez 2005 (CET)

Source: http://de.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_Diskussion:Benutzersperrung/Hans_Bug&oldid=11421707#Meinungsfreiheit

Have fun 19:35, 7 December 2005 (UTC)


* And now a real big bundle of German bolshewik humour. Follow the first link and have fun. '''Great!''' 14:12, 8 December 2005 (UTC)


: Entadminisierungsanträge sind seit neuestem nicht mehr zulässig. (Vergleiche die Versionsliste der entsprechenden Seite). ] 13:38, 8. Dez 2005 (CET) =

Source:


* Oops, a problem. ] ] has started with communism in de, but bourgeois people like Hans Bug has caught him ] and call that "copyright violation".

"What to do?"(Lenin).

] and ] have a '''classic de-idea''':

No Hans Bug - no problems .

A reason? (sorry, that´s a silly bourgeois question!) .

Live show: http://de.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Benutzersperrung/Hans_Bug&oldid=11470758

btw.: Some commies name reasons: "Hans Bug nervt" or "he´s boring".

Have fun 11:41, 9 December 2005 (UTC)



*Trying ''to get prominent for 15 minutes'' (]).

:Admin Anneke Wolf (aka "Rosa" or '']'' ) doesn´t like '''this''' current result:

:'''Der unheimlich starke Abgang der ]:'''

:http://de.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Administratoren/Probleme&oldid=11561304

:http://de.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_Diskussion:Administratoren/Probleme&oldid=11562262#Wieso_gibts_nicht_schon_l.C3.A4ngst_einen_Sperrantrag_gegen_Benutzer:Anneke_Wolf.3F

:Have fun 13:42, 12 December 2005 (UTC)


* 5 hours - new German bolshewik humour
:7:50 , 14. Dez 2005 (CET)
:http://de.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Benutzersperrung/Hans_Bug&oldid=11626536#Abstimmung (finished)
:The votes: PRO banning : 69 | CONTRA banning: 50 (and some more)

:13:36, 14. Dez 2005 (CET) - 5 hours later
:http://de.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Vandalensperrung&oldid=11626941#.C3.9Cble_Nachrede

:Have fun 13:18, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

==Wankers, fiddlers, fools and trolls==

Even as the Seigenthaler scandal was breaking in hundreds of news reports across the world, arbcomm member and suspended (in effect, apparently disbarred) lawyer Fred Bauder voted to endorse the statement that my sourcing standards were "unrealistic," as in, "Why bother for accuracy? Any tabloid crud will do!" Over at the village pump, Zoe accused me of "whining."

Here's what the has to say today about Misplaced Pages's sourcing standards and credibility:

:Calls for responsibility, we learn, in that unique strangulated prose style that is truly Misplaced Pages's legacy to the world -

:'''"... often form a pejorative means of attacking political opponents. This habit of demanding behaviour aligned to one's own desires also occurs in other arenas: one expects "responsibility" from children, parents, spouses, colleagues and employees, meaning they should change their attitudes to suit the speaker."'''

:From which the only thing missing is:

:'''".... booooo big bad teecher - I'm not going to skool today. fuck you!!"'''

:Which is terrific stuff.

:Now a picture of the body behind the "Hive Mind" of "collective intelligence" begins to take shape.

:He's 14, he's got acne, he's got a lot of problems with authority ... and he's got an encyclopedia on dar interweb.

Yep. Misplaced Pages's vaunted ''Hive mind'' happens to behave like a clueless, irresponsible 14 year old boy. Wankers, fiddlers, fools and trolls. Also from that article:

:Involvement in Misplaced Pages has taken its toll on a significant number of decent, fair minded people who with the most honorable intentions, have tried to alert the project to its social responsibilities and failed. Such voices could be heard on the Misplaced Pages mailing list, speaking up for quality. Misplaced Pages is losing good editors at an alarming rate, but who can blame them for leaving?

Hint: It's not all the bad publicity. ] 20:42, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
:I wouldn't bother complaining. All criticism of Misplaced Pages is now regarded as shrill hyperbole by the faithful. The worst thing is that the 14 year old with acne has not got trouble with authority — on Misplaced Pages in many cases he IS the authority. And recent criticism shows, the quality suffers as a result. - ] 21:27, 12 December 2005 (UTC)


Kudos to Jimbo for providing Misplaced Pages to those eager to learn! Angel

== My Brilliant Idea ==
Here's my idea -- give ''every'' unemployed person a computer with an Internet connection and teach them how to use Misplaced Pages. At least they'll have something to do, something to keep them busy...imagine the possibilities!

There's a lot of intelligent, educated, and otherwise bored people right now -- smells like civil-unrest to me! In this respect Misplaced Pages is a genius-idea! (if the French or German goverment happens to be reading this right now, implement this brilliant program NOW and gimme some CASH for my idea!)

Have a Digitally Enhanced Good Day!

] 12:10, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

== Message from Ta bu shi da yu ==

Jimbo, I'm having some issues editing Misplaced Pages from home (can't submit pages), but can you please email me in regards to . I am not a pedophile and never have been. I need advise on how to deal with this. This is serious. - ] 13:40, 13 December 2005 (UTC) <small>(posted by ] on user's behalf due to ongoing technical problems preventing Australian Optus subscribers editing articles)</small>

:Well, that article doesn't actually say that he's a pedophile, just that he "commended" another contributor who was one. But that's an interesting link... the attacks on Misplaced Pages just keep coming from all directions now, and now we're apparently being accused of being a gathering spot for pedophiles. ] 18:10, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
:Furthermore, that anti-Misplaced Pages article commits the common error of getting our URL wrong... it says '''wikipedia.com''' rather than '''wikipedia.org'''. Do they think we're a commercial site? ] 19:28, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
::We have sorted out the issue now... Linuxbeak spoke to them and posted a ''brilliant'' response. - ] 03:57, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

== WikiFuture...or WikiNot? ==

Constructive criticism & suggestion for the day:

Someday, perhaps soon, ] Print and its controversial Google Print Library Project initiative are going to be settled. And my guess is that they will go forward, either such as they were originally conceived or in a fashion similar to how ] music has come to be legally ubiquitous (provided freely on a selected basis as determined by the author), but in any case a commonly accepted practice and a profound knowledge-tool.

When this happens, "whither Misplaced Pages?"

The quality differential alone will crush Misplaced Pages in terms of relative interest & traffic, making it more exclusively a haven for the disenfranchised-14-year-old mindset. Users new (or old) to Misplaced Pages would do well to read ] regarding the many-fold problems with Misplaced Pages that continue to go unaddressed or otherwise evaded with respect to ''effective'' corrective measures.

Google's corporate motto alone, ], is fairly clearly indicative of where all this needs to head. Granted, Misplaced Pages is today a non-profit entity, and may remain as much despite the ] initiative, but turning over the reins to Google management...either in whole or part...would no-doubt result in the much-needed, dramatic course change that Misplaced Pages is in need of before it lands crushingly on the rocks of its own ego and becomes crab food.

Constructive suggestion: either 'sell' Misplaced Pages to Google outright -- an option of today's Misplaced Pages board -- or can the board outright and bring in Google's management team to restructure the content-creation processes to make them truth- & quality-driven rather than traffic-driven, thereby enabling a real future for Misplaced Pages.

"Or not."

--] 18:02, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

::I wouldn't worry. Unless Google Print allows editing, it'll always be inferior in terms of coverage. It takes at least a year for books to start covering something new, and usually at least a decade for encyclopedias. We can start covering something as soon as major media cover it enough to provide us with sources. --] 20:03, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

::I believe that WikiCities goes out of their way not to allow wikis that would compete with Wikimedia's wikis. So that, at least, shouldn't be a concern. Also Google Print isn't creating original content (to be sure, they're publishing conteet by others, just like any number of print publishers, and Project Gutenberg, do). -- ]] 20:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

==John Siegenthaler==

Hi. Can you tell me his email address? Thanks. ] 19:54, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

== Are personal attacks now acceptable? ==

Suppose I were to send a hoax email to the subject of a Misplaced Pages article, and then write up the results (haha! got him!) on the talk page and in the article. The subject of the Misplaced Pages article also happens to be a Wikipedian.

Would that be:
(a) good traditional encyclopedia research, or
(b) an egregious personal attack?

I say (b), but the Misplaced Pages community (including several admins) says (a).

Oh, and the article subject/Wikipedia user happens to be very unpopular (in fact has been blocked from Misplaced Pages). Does the answer depend on that? Should it?

See ] for details. ] 22:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

No it is completely unacceptable behavior. Very disappointing. We are Wikipedians and for me that means something.--] 19:10, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

==Siegenthaler case==

Is this statement correct? "On December 6, 2005, the two were interviewed on National Public Radio's Talk of the Nation radio program. There Wales described a new policy he implemented '''preventing unregistered users from creating new articles on the English-language Misplaced Pages''', though they continued to be able to edit existing articles as before." If so, it is the best news about Misplaced Pages I have heard since I first became involved. I congratulate Mr Wales on finally taking the first step to making Misplaced Pages a real encyclopeadia rather than an adventure playground for cranks and (as has now been demonstrated) slanderers. But it is only a first step. The next step must be banning anonymous people from editing at all, requiring all editors to have verifiable contact details, and protecting completed articles from random editing. (See ] for more on this). ] 02:02, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
:Yes, then after that we should have mandatory ] identification, and psychological purity exams. Special NPOV chips could be embedded inside the brains of would-be editors :) ] 02:10, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
::Worth looking into. ] 02:17, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
:::I think it would be simpler, and best, if ] would take care of whatever Misplaced Pages editing is left to be done; the rest of us could use a vacation. ;-) Really, though, I treasure my complete Misplaced Pages <s>anonymity</s> pseudonymity; eliminating it by requiring "contact details" would be one of the few changes around here that would drive me off. &mdash;] (]) 02:32, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
:Define a ''completed'' article. - ] 03:59, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

*I am aware that the changes I favour would drive some people aware from Misplaced Pages. But the object of this exercise is to write an encyclopaedia, not to keep the entire computer-owning population of the world amused. As the Siegenthaler case (among many other things) demonstrates, our present structure is not optimal for achieving that objective. Therefore it must be changed.
* A completed article is an article which says what needs to be said about a given topic, comprehensively, accurately and impartially, as determined by those knowledgeable on the subject and working on the article.
*I still want to know if the above statement attributed to Mr Wales is correct.
] 04:15, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
*: Anon page creation? ]. ]]<sup>(] - ])</sup> 04:18, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

So when will this change come into effect? ] 04:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
* It already did. See ]. ]]<sup>(] - ])</sup> 04:23, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

==Appeal==
Once again I want to appeal my arbitration ruling. You seem to be deliberately ignoring me, and apparently you deleted my old requests from this page, so I figure I need to request again. ] 05:28, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

:Not ignoring you, just swamped. I will get to it soon, I promise.--] 15:59, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

==Page creation restrictions==
I think we should reinstate the ability of anonymous users to create talk pages, so they can comments about articles, ask questions, explain their edits, etc. ] 12:35, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

== Systematic bias in Misplaced Pages biographies ==

One thing I've noticed about biographies on Misplaced Pages is that they tend to be heavy on negative opinion. There is often a section titled "Criticism" which can be quite large. There is rarely (I've never seen it) a "Praise" section that documents positive opinions. Anything positive gets filtered out as "POV", while negative opinions stay.

I'm not saying that criticism should be balanced by praise. My preference is to keep opinions out as much as possible.

Interestingly, there is no "Criticism" in ]. If a bio can be written about the most criticized man in history without a "Criticism" section, why not for others? ] 13:57, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

:This seems to be a question for the community, not Jimbo. Why don't you post it to the ]? ] | ]] 15:58, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

==israel wikipedia freedom under terror attack==

in the israeli wikimedia their are person that is one of the responsible is nickname is "gilgmsh" he blocks every body their
he do not give to many pepole that give an important informastion and equal to the wikipedia in english,
this person block me when I want to transfer what he did to me when I scription the artical on the "celts"
(currntly it's fit to children)
when I want to past what he did to the other responsibles
the problem is that even in the forum all of them know each other
this is gilgamsh the responsible domain http://he.wikipedia.org/search/?title=%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%97%D7%94:%D7%92%D7%99%D7%9C%D7%92%D7%9E%D7%A9&action=edit
and this is the responsible domain of the israeli wikipediahttp://he.wikipedia.org/search/?title=%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%97%D7%AA_%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%AA%D7%9E%D7%A9:%D7%93%D7%95%D7%93_%D7%A9%D7%99&action=edit
this is the reason I passing to you
thankes on the listening
"splendor"

:There isn't an "Israeli Misplaced Pages" any more than there's an "American Misplaced Pages"; editions are by language, not country. What you're talking about is the Hebrew Misplaced Pages. This is an important distinction, as it prevents people from claiming that a particular edition is supposed to represent or be controlled by one country (e.g., if the People's Republic of China were to demand control of the Chinese Misplaced Pages). ] 15:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

== ArbCom elections ==

I think deciding the election procedure based on a straw poll, which is designed to get people's feedbacks on a range of available options, with around 40-50 people participating in total (which isn't significantly larger than the number of people standing for the Arbitration Committee) is a inherently bad idea. It's not like there was a significant majority in favour of any one of the proposals, either.

The result of a straw poll is not to use the procedure with the most support, it is to find out why other people didn't like that proposal, and work on improving it so that people who didn't support the original idea will support an improved version (or at least, not oppose as much). ] (] | ] | ]) 15:25, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but we need to move forward. We do have the luxury of ongoing investigations as we move forward, and flexibility to analyze what works well and doesn't, for next time around. --] 15:58, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

== A serious suggestion to Mr. Wales ==



An article in wikipdia is like any other piece of software. It needs to reach stability, pass some Beta test before it can be "published" or exported to the world at large.

Here is a simple suggestion:

Each article will include two versions:

:: 1. The public, "published" version.

:: 2. The internal "under development" version.

Edits, as we know them today, will take place on the internal version. Vandalism (even a sophisticated one) will be removed. Facts checked. All without the public at large exposed to that ever changing version of the article. In software lingo will be the <i>non stable nightly build </i>.

Only after an article stabilized (frequent edits stopped) Versification of facts by team of experts who would certify the article th article will be published and that is the version that will be available to the public and mirrored all over the net and would remain this way until the next stable revision of the article (could be few month or weeks)

It is suggested the members of each articles' "Verification team" will be people who will use their real name and real identity hopefully experts on the subject matter - as much of the abuse allowed on wikipedia comes from the anonymity (even of resisted users as you surly know).

This verification process should not be hard. If Misplaced Pages policies are followed all the material should be sourced (99% over the net anyhow) and no Original research is used.

I am sure you will get objections to this policy. Mostly from people who are using "gangs" to PUSH a certain POV into articles. I have ran into such a gang lately and see how Misplaced Pages policies (when not enforced) leads to very poor encyclopedia articles. I am sure that articles in which Misplaced Pages policies have been followed will be easy to verify and certify. Also the fact that the internal version of the article is only available to few thousands volunteers (instead of to millions) would reduce <b> significantly </b> the use that some groups today are making in Misplaced Pages is spreading their propaganda on a daily basis. ] 15:54, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

*This is already being developed. &mdash; <small><sub>]</sub><sup><span style="position: relative; left:-24px; margin-right:-24px;">]</span></sup> &bull; 2005-12-14 15:55</small>

:: Please explain and give details, cause i am tired fighting with all the POV pushers. I want to work on an encyclopedia not to fight those who use Misplaced Pages to spread propeganda. ] 15:59, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

:::I'll believe it when I see it. Academic editing standards are likely not conducive to high mega-mega traffic consisting largely of bickering fools and trolls donating time and money to an open, Google-visible site pointing to the misleading text and keywords they insert into thousdands of articles. ] 17:13, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

::::It's not "all about the money", even if you've seemed to convince yourself of the contrary. The inertia is attributable to three things: the fact that Misplaced Pages isn't failing, but just not working as well as it could or should; the fact that pushing Misplaced Pages one way means pushing the developers (few in number) and the community (anything but); and the fact that a novel construct like Misplaced Pages faces novel problems requiring novel solutions.
::::Of course, we can also believe Jimbo and the board are just evil. Eventually pictures of them eating babies would leak to the public, though, and then Misplaced Pages will fork. ] · ] 17:36, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
:::::See ]. ]]<sup>(] - ])</sup> 19:20, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


==Polygamy "Decision" was a "Summary Judgment & Execution" made without ever hearing all the facts==
On 02:52, 15 November 2005, the ] "decision" was made to push out a rare proven topic expert on ], while giving free reign to a hostile proven anti-polygamy editor to misinform Misplaced Pages readers with propaganda POV. Unfortunately, their anti-expert "Decision" was made completely without any consideraton of the facts or fairness whatsoever. Truly, the evidence testifies (to any honest observer) against the making of this "Summary Judgment and Execution" where considering the facts had never been allowed or performed.
Could you please take a look?
::Sure, I'll take a look sometime in the next 3 weeks. I deleted the rest of what you posted here, but I'll read that too. --] 16:53, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

::: Thank you. Today is three weeks later since you made that last post. Coming back today to see if you've had the time yet to fix this anti-expert railroading problem, I unfortunately discovered that someone else had completely removed this section of mine from your TALK page. So, for your review, I put this back back and I ask for your urgent assistance still.

::: At 18:36, 16 November 2005, I posted that as follows:

::::*
::::**
::::**
::::**
::::**
::::**
::::**
::::**
::::**
::::**

::: At 16:53, November 23, 2005, you

::: At 02:04, 14 December 2005, that entire section was then removed by ] on

::: Anyway, I really do hope you will fix this problem. Pushing out proven content-experts on rare topics by unknowledgeable biased wiki-process-experts leaves Misplaced Pages misleading the marketplace when it calls itself an "encyclopedia." I know you're busy, but I do hope you will solve this horrendous "Summary Judgement and Execution." After all, I was the one who asked for the Arbitration. Yet never once, not a single time, did any one consider any part of any of MY evidence in any way whatsoever. They gave me no mercy, nothing. They went straight to user-execution, without considering the overwhelming quantity of abuse I had received. It was the pure definition of ]. From the beginning, it was clear that the head arbitrator's demonstrated bias against the topic should have caused them to recuse themselves. Instead, a pure ] ensued, designed only to push a rare, proven content-expert of a rare topic out of Misplaced Pages altogether. It was a complete railroading.

::: I have believed Misplaced Pages was better than that, so I am hopeful that you <i><b>will</i></b> rectify this as soon you can. (The is intended to help you on that.) When you do fix this, you will truly be helping the readers of Misplaced Pages find actually correct, accurate, and NPOV information about the rare and little-understood ] related topics. That, itself, will then help Misplaced Pages to not lose its credibility as a hope-to-be "encyclopedia," by recognizing that proven content-experts do have a value in preventing misinformation. I am hopeful for goood things about Misplaced Pages, so I am hopeful you will fix this tragedy soon. Thank you. - ] 19:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 17:05, 16 January 2025

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    Albert Percy Godber

    Albert Percy Godber at his brass finishing lathe in the Petone railway workshops. A sign before him reads: `This is my busy day'
    "Looking down over a settlement with houses set amongst trees. The arm of a lake or harbour lies beyond, with a mountainous range on the far side. Photograph taken by Albert Percy Godber. Probably taken at Queenstown, Godber having visited Lake Wakatipu and Queenstown in 1926"

    Happy New Year Jimbo!!! I hope all is well with you and your team.

    Could you or your page watchers help me with Draft:Albert Percy Godber? The draft has been declined and tagged up. It was then deleted years ago. I had it restored today after I came across one of his photos. I think he and his photography are fascinating for capturing aspects of New Zealand's transportation and industrial history. His work is in museum and library collections. At least one of his photographs has been used in a book. He photographed Maori sites.

    "Phyllis Mary Godber wearing a Maori cloak, holding a taiaha, standing beside a collection of Maori carvings, including two fire-screens, carved by her father Albert Percy Godber

    I'm sorry I haven't been able to work the draft up enough to get it admitted to mainspace. It does make me wonder about what we do and don't include, our notability criteria, Articles for Creation (AfC) process, and collaborative ethos. Thanks so much for any help or guidance you can offer! Have a great 2025 and beyond. Thanks again. FloridaArmy (talk) 17:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

    If Godber is not WP:NOTABLE, which is what the draft reviewers say, then Wikipedians can't fix that. Polygnotus (talk) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
    user:Polygnotus is he "notable" and should we have an entry on him? FloridaArmy (talk) 17:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
    I dunno, but User:Sulfurboy wrote that the draft did not show significant coverage about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject at that point. Polygnotus (talk) 19:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
    "Godber family outside their house 'Railway Whare' at 23 Bay Street, Petone, circa 1906. From left to right: Albert Percy Godber, Mary Ann Godber, Laura Godber, Phyllis and William. Photograph taken by Albert Percy Godber"
    And this a request to revisit his finding. We have a photographer from more than 100 years ago who documented areas of New Zealand's North Island. We have his work in a National Library collection. We have his work discussed as iconic for one of his Maori related photographs. We have his work revisited in a 2018 exhibition. We have descriptions of him related to his photographs, his career, and we have the photos themselves documenting the areas industries, sites, infrastructure from more than 100 years ago. If I was satisfied with the previous conclusions I would not be here. So I ask again, should we have an entry on this subject? Should we just attribute his photos where we use them to an unlinked name with no explanation or discussion of who he was? I think the answer is clear, and I wanted to hear Jimbo's opinion. I am aware of what was previously stated. Years have passed and I believe it's time to reevaluate and consider. I also think it's worth reflecting on our article creations processes more generally and how we apply our conception of "notability". FloridaArmy (talk) 23:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Godber's photographs include "views of the Hutt Valley including large numbers of cars traveling to Trentham Racecourse, and the Hutt River. Another group of images relate to a holiday at the Mendip Hills Homestead in Canterbury, New Zealand with scenes of farm life, including haymaking, merino sheep, and farm buildings. During their stay in the South Island Godber also took photographs of Dunedin (including the Ross Reservoir, Otago Boys' High School, Seacliff Mental Hospital, the 1926 Dunedin Exhibition, and the Hillside Railway Workshops); Invercargill (including the Invercargill Railway Workshops); Stewart Island, Moeraki, Tuatapere, Waiau River, Oamaru and Port Chalmers. Various railway stations in Canterbury and Otago, the Burnside Iron Mills, and the Rosslyn Mills. Godber was a volunteer fireman with the Petone Fire Brigade with the album including views of the building, groups of firemen, fire engines and other fire fighting equipment, and a building in Petone damaged by fire. In his work with New Zealand Railways, mainly at the Petone Railway Workshops, he took interior photographs of various buildings, including the Machine Shop and finishing benches, the engine room, lathes, boilers, and fitting shops. He also took photographs of many of the steam engines that were built and worked on at the workshops. One scene shows a group of men watching a fight. Many images show his interest in logging railways, particularly in the Piha, Karekare, Anawhata area. Scenes of logging camps, various methods of transporting logs including bullock teams, logging trains, and dams created and then tripped to send logs down by river, and timber mills. Other topics covered in Godber's photographs are scenes at Maori marae and meeting houses, with some of the people identified; Maori carving and rafter designs; beekeeping, and gold mining." FloridaArmy (talk) 23:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
    • It's hard to choose which photos to share. Historic views areas, industries, bridges, natural features, railways and bridges, crafts. Here's a link to his photos on Misplaced Pages Commons. Many already illustrate our entries on various subjects. FloridaArmy (talk) 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
    If you really want to help him, get a couple stories published about him in newspapers. Notability here will follow. Carrite (talk) 01:23, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

    Requests for comment/Severe Problems in hewiki

    For the interested. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:58, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

    Summary: This document intends to show the problematic situation in Hebrew Misplaced Pages (hewiki), and provide evidence that it has been overtaken by a group of mostly religious and nationalist editors, who prevent others from achieving higher permissions while promoting their own allies. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

    Happy new year

    Good days, Jimbo. I'd like to say that Chinese Misplaced Pages is introducing ARBCOM System currently, since Arbcom on this project, and in fact all the project is originated from the idea of yours, do you have any opinion for that? Any hints, advice or suggestions? -Lemonaka 15:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

    Scoop: Heritage Foundation plans to ‘identify and target’ Misplaced Pages editors

    That doesn't sound good. From The Forward. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

    Being discussed at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Heritage Foundation intending to "identify and target" editors. CMD (talk) 10:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
    Thanks! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
    Also discussed at Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_5/Evidence#Edit_request and Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Heritage_Foundation_planning_to_dox_Wikipedia_editors. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

    Jimbo, could I ask you please to respond to these concerns from Tryptofish?

    ... it's not just if you've edited about Israel-Palestine. It could be if you've edited anything about climate and fossil fuels, gender, immigration, vaccines, and of course, American politics. I doubt that they have the bandwidth to actually identify and harass every editor who could possibly be seen as editing information that goes against a MAGA POV, but they will likely find some easily identified targets, whom they will use to "set an example", as a way of instilling fear in our editing community. I fully expect that, in the coming months, Jimbo Wales will be hauled before a hostile and performative Congressional hearing, much in the manner of university presidents. I hope very much that he will be better prepared than Claudine Gay was.
    Yeah, I know this is grim. But I believe the first step in dealing with this is to go into it with our eyes open, to know what we are dealing with, what motivates it. And, more than harming individual editors, the real objective of Heritage et al. is to instill fear in the rest of us. If we become too fearful to revert POV edits, they win. In a very real sense, we have to keep doing what we have been doing, and continue to be a reliable resource for NPOV information. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

    Sita Bose (talk) 05:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    Well, I fully agree that developments in terms of arguments and actions aimed at destroying trust in knowledge (and of course our specific interest, trust in Misplaced Pages) are extremely worrisome, particularly as I agree that for many who are doing it, the motive does appears to be the undermining of civic norms and democracy. I also agree with Tryptofish in a part that you didn't quote: "In a narrow sense, it's technically true that if you "out" yourself, there's no point in anyone else doing it. But once your identity is known, you become vulnerable to all of the kinds of real-life harassment that doxed people find themselves subjected to. It doesn't matter, in that regard, how they found out your identity." That's a sad balancing act that no Wikipedian should have to face.
    As a side note, I don't think that the reliability of the Heritage Foundation as a source is particularly related to these despicable actions. Whether they should be considered a reliable source in some matters is really unrelated to whether they hate us or not.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
    Suddenly ANI going to court to get user-data seems like the model of gentlemanly behavior. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:51, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
    That's a sad balancing act that no Wikipedian should have to face. Unfortunately, the scales have been inexorably slipping out from beneath the foundation's abilities or willingness to protect its volunteers for my entire wiki-career. There's no balancing force at work. The private equity community has made gadflies out of what we used to label reliable local news media; Alphabet and Meta are actively coopting precision, privacy, and the public domain, while attempting to minimize the effectiveness of good faith actors like Internet Archive. Now suddenly en.wikipedians are facing the sort of personal threats long experienced by volunteers at ru.wiki and zh.wiki. The forces now arrayed against free information don't need to be actively coordinating in order to rapidly bring us to 2+2=5 territory. Any established editor could reasonably see Western culture has been under relentless attack for a long time. Here comes the Heritage Foundation's leaks, hot off Heritage's bangup release of Project 2025, leaking articles through partisan outlets apparently intended to make it appear (in one case) the ADL's recent reliability downgrade at RSNP was anyone else's fault but the ADL's own writings and actions. The news of such activity appears to threaten the community members directly and personally. BusterD (talk) 13:26, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

    Talk:Jimmy_Wales#Newer_2024_image?

    Hey Mr. Wales, there's a discussion on Talk:Jimmy_Wales#Newer_2024_image? about what image should be used on your Misplaced Pages entry. Figured you may want to chime in with personal opinion about the recent freely-licensed images of you that are presented, as there hasn't been much engagement there at the time of my post. BarntToust 21:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

    The Signpost: 15 January 2025

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