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	{{info|If you are an admin and are here about a block I have made, feel free to lift or amend if the situation has changed, miscreant has repented, consensus is now against block etc. Please let me know you have done so. Thanks.'''}}		{{info|If you are an admin and are here about a block I have made, feel free to lift or amend if the situation has changed, miscreant has repented, consensus is now against block etc. Please let me know you have done so. Thanks.'''}}
	{{Usertalkback}}{{Archive box|] * ] *] *]}}		{{Usertalkback}}{{Archive box|] * ] * ] * ] * ] * ] * ] * ] * ]}}
			== Just found what impressed us ==
			Hi, This is an old talk, I know :http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Turkish_Van however your logic about the Van and the Angora cats (in Turkey) being the same breed is unusual to see, however you are right! Warm regards from Turkey, from a member of The Angora Cat Association.--Ankara Kedisi 07:12, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
	== WQA ==
			== I wonder if anyone got your reference.... ==
	Hello, {{BASEPAGENAME}}. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at ] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. {{#if:|The thread is ]. }}{{#if:|The discussion is about the topic ].}} <!--Template:WQA-notice--> Thank you. &mdash; ]\<sup>]</sup> 20:22, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
	:It's no problem. Honestly I don't see anything to be upset at you about but maybe I'm missing something. &mdash; ]\<sup>]</sup> 21:37, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
	::I second that. ] (]) 10:34, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
			You're the second person I know of who's read the Lensman series. ] (]) 22:30, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
	== Request ==
			:] is another. --] (]) 23:05, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
	* On a separate matter, as you are an editor who had participated ], could you please state/explain your level of "involvement" (if any)? I'd appreciate it if you could provide a response (or a copy of it) ]. Thank you, ] (]) 10:34, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
			::And I of course am a third. They were pretty dire. '']&nbsp;]'', <small>20:10, 11 December 2012 (UTC).</small><br />
	==Thanks for your work with Gavin==
			== And the answer is ==
	{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
			mainspace edits. <small>]</small> 22:51, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
	|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | ]
			:Your post made me curious, so I went and looked myself up. I seem to have 7954 mainspace edits. I had no idea I had made that many. ]<small><sup>]</sup></small> 22:58, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
	|rowspan="2" |
	|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Guidance Barnstar'''
	|-
	|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | He's a difficult case with great upside potential. Your mentoring is appreciated. ] (]) 00:42, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
	|}
			Just a quick thanks for quick Oversighting. --] (]) 03:59, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
	== Language questions ==
			== Infobox dispute ==
	Since you ] to help, I will ask you a few questions, I hope you don't mind.
			You once mediated a similar infobox dispute. Can you be objective at ] as to whether the infobox is a distraction to the reader, or is helpful to the reader? Both arguments are valid and really more an issue of aesthetics, so a third opinion ... well, a fourth in this case, would be helpful. --] (]) 22:00, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
	1. ], do you think "is fitting out" is OK in the following sentence? Or should it be "is being fitted out"?
	:''The latest nuclear submarine produced at the shipyard is the nuclear powered attack submarine Severodvinsk, which was launched in 2010 and is currently fitting out''
			== ''The Signpost'': 05 November 2012 ==
	2. ], I'm looking for a better way to say "is seen as too expensive". I think it doesn't sound good because "see" is too concrete. "Has been identified as too expensive" is not good either, because "identified" is too specific. I cannot think of a good alternative.
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	3. ], I'm looking for a better way to say stuff like "growth of production for military products". I'm not sure which of the following words is a good synonyme for "military products": weapons, arms, or armaments. For example, a transport helicopter is not really "a weapon", but still a military product. Would it be OK to use "arms" in place of the general expression "military products" or "defense industry products"?
			{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2012-11-05}}
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			* ''']'''
			* ]
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			* ] (]) 23:29, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
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			== Mail call ==
	4. I'm not entirely sure what the word "procurement" means, although I've read the . I understand it as follow: a company produces weapons, but when the state buys new weapons, then it "procures" them. But what exactly does "Russian defense procurement" mean? Does it mean the total production of weapons in the country or just the government's weapons purchases?
			I've dropped you a line. ]<sup>TT</sup>(]) 16:07, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
	Thanks a lot for your time. ] (]) 19:13, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
			== More MMA Socks ==
	:No problem at all, delighted to help.
			Just to let you know some more MMA SPA's have shown up, for example {{userlinks|Nurple is the New Purple}} and {{userlinks|Noahco}} along with {{userlinks|Jfgsloeditor}} for which there is an open WP:ANI ]. ]]] 17:18, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
	1. The UK English expression would be 'is being fitted out', as we tend to prefer reflexive tenses.
			:Got 'em all three, and Noahco's kid brother ]. Nurple and Jfgsloeditor are BStudent0 socks, Noahco is editing on proxies now blocked. --] (]) 22:32, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
			::''Nest of 'em''?? Us socks come in ''drawers'', not "nests"! ] 22:37, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
			:: Thanks, I will suggest at the ANI that the 3 pages he created should be ]'ed in line with ], I can't believe any of the other !voters will object. ]]] 23:01, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
			== Male call ==
	2. 'is seen as too expensive' doesn't really mean the same as 'is identified as too expensive", so I agree with you there. 'Is perceived as too expensive' or 'is regarded as too expensive' would be much better.
			{{You've got mail}} <small>]</small> 02:46, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
			== Edit war ==
	3. 'Armaments' is the correct alternative, I would say. 'Growth in production of armaments' or 'growth in military production' would both do.
			You showed interest in the discussion at ] the other day. As an admin, could you look at this again? Mr. Norton is currently starting an edit war over the infobox, claiming consensus, although the discussion on the talk page IMO shows that there is none. ] (]) 01:07, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
	4. 'Procurement' means to obtain something. 'Procure' can be used in a domestic setting, especially if the object of the procurement is a bit odd - 'she went to the butcher to procure a pig's head' or if method is by some other means than retail purchase - 'he traded several dahlias with his neighbour in order to procure a horseradish root.'
			== First track off The Poison ==
	In a business sense, 'procurement' refers to the whole process of obtaining goods and services. It may require a 'specification', describing the goods or services required, a 'tender' submitted by companies who wish to supply, a 'selection process' where a supplier is chosen, and a 'contract' with the supplying company, which will include such things as quantity, price, timescale, after-sales service, penalties for failure to supply, guarantees or warranties. (I procure goods for my company - the largest procurement I did was for £250,000).
			Hello! I've noticed that the name of the first song off the album ] is wrong. The real name is "Intro", not "Intro ... My Lifestyle". I tried to change it, but there are two users who do not stop reverting my edits without consulting. So I've been involved in an edit war. An unregistered user changed back the name several times and he added a reference from Last.fm, but I think that is not a reliable source. Moreover, I have added some references to the ] such as the official BFMV website, itunes, BBC and even a picture of the album.
	So when your source talks of 'Russian defence procurement', it is referring to all the goods and services which have been bought/contracted for by the Russian government as part of its defence spending. This will include spending on military hardware (rockets, helicopters etc), military computer systems (eg fire control systems), but may also include spending on laptops, printer paper, toilet paper, uniforms, food, vodka (well, they are Russians), cleaning staff, the phone contract, the contract with their internet service provider etc etc. If it only means spending on military hardware, the source should make this clear.] (]) 20:57, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
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			This is so frustrating! I have that CD in my house (I bought it a few years ago because I was a big fan of Bullet For My Valentine) and I can read clearly that the name of the song is just "Intro". So I want to ask you to end this discussion. Thank you. ] (]) 13:49, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
			:No point telling me - I'm not going to edit the article. I'm just trying to stop you getting blocked for edit warring, because no-one seems to agree with you at the moment, which puts you in the wrong Wikipolicy-wise. If you can't get them to communicate on the talkpage, try going to ] for more eyes on the question. --] (]) 13:53, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
			== Blocked from editing The Poison? ==
	:Thank you! This is exactly what I needed. ] (]) 17:16, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
			I already agreed to stop editing the track names, and even added more reviews to the reception section since the disbute ended. I have talked with the user on his and my talk page, and I haven't edited anything regarding the tracks since I told them I would stop. I wasn't even warned about an edit war, and I only reverted twice meaning I in no way violated the 3RR. I am requesting that you unblock me from editing The Poison as I did not violate any rules. ] (]) 14:04, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
	::I'm curious about : is correct to say "M. E. Sharpe ''are'' an academic publisher"? I've seen "are" used with football teams in England, but not with companies. I think other WP articles about companies (even about British companies) always use "is" instead of "are", but football team articles like ] use "are". ] (]) 23:48, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
			:I haven't blocked you. I have locked the article so no-one can edit it (see ]), because it kept changing every few hours, and that's no good for our readers. Decide amongst yourselves what is going to go in the article - if necessary go to ] to get some of the dispute resolution people to help you work it out. --] (]) 15:05, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::Actually, both can be used, it's a kind of custom and practice thing in the UK. So "F.Warne & Co" is a publishing firm or 'is a publisher' (singular). However, more colloquially F.Warne & Co can also be abbreviated to Warne's (as in Warne's firm of publishers I presume), giving 'Warne's are publishing my book'. Confusingly, 'Warne are publishing my book' can also legitimately be used. Whether the extra 's' is added seems to depend on whether the name of the firm is the name of the founder - ] always has it, ] never does, because the name was made up by someone in Pearson Longman (] though always used to be referred to as Longman's). So one should say 'Penguin Books Ltd is the UK division of Penguin Group'.
			I'm fine with that; I figured after I posted this that it might be just locked, but wasn't sure as I don't ever log off Misplaced Pages. As I said, I'm done with the track name argument, and have been for a while. I agree with you about the constant updates. Thank you for addressing my concern.] (]) 16:02, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
			:That's cool. You should have no difficulties editing anywhere else, my locking the article does not reflect upon yourself. --] (]) 16:17, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
			== Urgent intervention on ] ==
	:::I suppose it's a kind of ] - only the locals get it right. Football teams are always plural - conceptually, the team is the 11 players, not the business, so it is 'Manchester United are...' even when obviously talking about the business (...are raising capital to build a new stand) and not the guys on the pitch (Manchester United are playing terribly this season).
			Dear "Elen of the Roads"
	:::Firms of partners, such as lawyers, should properly be refered to in the plural, so 'George Allen & Unwin' are a publishing firm, or 'are publishers' (plural); 'Sue, Grabbit & Run are a firm of solicitors in Glasgow' ; 'Hobson and Holland are reliable roofing contractors'. Going back to M E Sharpe, I'd tend towards 'is', because there is only one name, so 'M E Sharpe is an academic publisher'; but it is likely that in colloquial English one would say 'Sharpe's are academic publishers'.
	:::Clear as mud, I'm sure.] (]) 00:28, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
			I can't take this user's abuse anymore.
	:::: Convention is that companies/organizational entities are plural in British English and singular in American English, so one should follow the convention for the rest of the article, e.g. "George Allen & Unwin are planning to publish..." = British, "George Allen & Unwin is planning to publish..." = American. ]<small> ►]</small> 14:14, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::: Thanks for that. I hear both versions used these days in British English, wasn't aware that the singular form is the norm in the US. ] (]) 15:01, 11 October 2010 (UTC)		If well intentioned editors can get harassed like this, I don't want to continue at Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 13:57, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
			:There have been some further developments. Which are on ]. I'm seeing if the user and I can call a truce and ignore/avoid each other in future. ] (]) 21:48, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
	==Gavin and Lists==
	ER - As you can see, List policy is one area where I believe Gavin is trying impose what he thinks policy ought to say and not what it really says or how current policy is practiced. There is pretty strong consensus against him in terms of the list policy he wants to impose but he refuses to see that. When we point out that the current 57K+ lists in WP have been created under current guidelines and policies and that his view of what policy ought to be would render 99% of those lists in violation of policy, he refuses to understand or care about the impact. It is this intractability that has caused so much turmoil. Please press him on the need to understand consensus on current policy and not to interpret that policy in the way he wants the WP list world to be. Again, thanks for your help with Gavin.--] (]) 13:50, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
	:I'll do what I can. I have a little sympathy - some lists are just accumulations of cruft, usually because the nature of the list wasn't defined well enough to start with, and Milhist did have a problem with some joker wanting to include anything that was called "War on..." in a tabloid headline. Lists need to be clearly scoped, but that's not the same as what Gavin is saying.--] (]) 14:18, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
	:: Indeed, there is a lot of poor lists created (just like poor articles) because editors do not understand or follow policy. But that is not a reason for decimating 57K+ good lists by advocating draconian policy or gross misapplication of existing policy. Bad lists should be deleted or improved according to the consensus of existing policy. That's what Gavin needs to learn. Thanks. --] (]) 14:23, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
			::He's a "reformed" socker who continued to indulge in uncivil disruptive editing with other editors (including an admin) even after being unblocked. In the past 5 months the only 2 articles he has worked on are those in which I reverted controversial BLP or poorly sourced/copyrighted material. Can you advise me on how to proceed because I want all this to stop. ] (]) 05:57, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
	== AFD on Shakespeare doubters ==
			== RFAR ==
	The list has been transformed into an article about the Declaration. Can i suggest you take a look and see if you'd want to withdraw your AFD? ] (]) 16:53, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
	:I'll take a look. Who made the change I wonder? --] (]) 20:29, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
			Could you explain more specifically why you struck out your vote?--] (]) 15:42, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
	== Plagiarism accusations ==
			:Yeah, no problem. I went back to the basic principles, and came up with a line of reasoning that looks like this:-
			The following policies/customs/practice apply here
	Ebanony continues to make plagerism accusations. He currently is claiming Rjensen is making plagiarism links on George Washington. Ebanony has rarely made any contributions to articles and seems to just criticize rather then make the article better. ] (]) 06:18, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
			* If two or more editors are going at it hammer and tongs in a legit content dispute and will not stop, they can all be ibanned or tbanned to damp it down
	:Let me take a look. --] (]) 17:54, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
			* If two or more editors spend their time following each other around the project sniping, they can be ibanned
			* If one editor follows another editor around persistently, for a long time, sniping, that is disruptive
			* If editors are editing in a disruptive manner in an area, they can be sanctioned with tbans, blocks and bans
			* If editors are trolling, they shoud be blocked
			* If someone is being trolled by socks, the socks should be blocked
			* If someone supports the trolling from the sock, they should be blocked
	==Apologies for getting involved in the Gavin issue==
	ER - Sorry for weighing in on the Gavin Behavioral issues. He's just got a disruptive way of sucking us into these useless debates. In no way do I think a statement saying that I or we disagree with his position is a personal attack, but I guess as long as he feels that way, we should lay off and let you and KWW do your magic. You were right to call a stop to the bickering. Good Luck. --] (]) 15:22, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
	:I can understand why people do it, but it was turning into a cat fight, and Bus Stop turning up didn't help either. --] (]) 17:55, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
			Let's leave out the two sockmasters for the moment. Focus on the editors who have legitimate accounts.
	== Doodle Jump ==
			IIf the users with legitimate accounts were doing nothing wrong, they shouldn't have been ibanned.
	I declined because I didn't understand the explanation of why they were copyvios, so they weren't blatant in my eyes. Since you've given a detailed explanation, I now understand, so I've deleted all three of them. ] (]) 12:12, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			If Mathsci is equally bad in how he interacts with the legitimate accounts, a normal (two way) iban would have been the right remedy
	== Your advice please ==
	As regards ] you placed the following message:
	:If he persists in copying the text of one article into another to create the second article, without proper accreditation, he will be blocked from editing. If he had different content for the two articles that showed that they were different entities - then there would not have been a problem. --] (]) 15:44, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			If Mathsci was behaving well but the other editors included in the iban were engaged in following Mathsci around sniping, the other editors should have been blocked or tbanned for being disruptive.
	This is my problem: In July 2008 I created a page entitled "Narkomfin" (See the creation page of ]). In December 2008 ] moved the page to "People's Commissariat of Finance". Fair enough I thought. I made a number of other edits in 2009. Then in June 2010 ] moved the page to "Ministry of Finance (Soviet Union)". I edited a completely different page, and because the Soviet Union did not exist at the time of the foundation of the "People's Commissariat of Finance" it is inappropriate to put amalgamate the two pages. I wish to return my edits to the correct page and would certainly like to see the proper edit history restored as well before ] introduced all the confusion. At the moment the edit record makes me look stupid, if not downright deceitful. As things stand my contribution is being misrepresented and i wish to correct this. Presumably you would have no issue if I persist in moving my own edits back onto the correct page, as they will still be properly accredited. But I am not sure this adequately fixes the problem.] (]) 00:11, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:The issue was copypasting without accreditation, which breaches the licence by which copy is released to Misplaced Pages. If you say in the paste article "copied from X article" that's sufficient. As to the rest, you have some good advice on your talkpage about getting consensus if you wish to undo TIAYN's moves of the articles, or split them into two. If there is consensus for a split, an admin will be able to help with the history problem. I recommend against edit warring to move "your" content (which is of course not yours, as you have released it for other editors to do what they like with) without gaining consensus, as this is unlikely to end well. --] (]) 00:38, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::They are the same freaking articles, If you really want to create an article for the ] than create an article for the People's Commissariat for the RSFSR.. okay? Is it that hard? You can't have two articles on two different topics, It is gonna confuse the reader. --] (]) 04:14, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::Please refrain from bringing your content dispute onto my talkpage. I have no opinion as to whether there should be one, two or no articles on the subject. My advice is strictly on how to discuss and obtain consensus for any action.] (]) 10:35, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:thank you for your advice.] (]) 12:21, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
			If the other editors were trolling, they should have been blocked for trolling.
	== RFA? ==
			If they were supporting the trolling socks, they should have been blocked for that.
	I been seeing you alot lately in AN/I, etc, and checking your contributions you do some adminstative work already, are you interested in a ]. Thanks ] <sup>]</sup> 22:00, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
	:That's a very kind thought, but I'm not convinced anyone would !vote for me. I don't create loads of FAs (never created an article as far as I can recall), which would mean instant opposes from many of those who take an interest in such things. I actually think it takes a different skillset - particularly when it involves sorting out edit wars, non-communicative editors, pov pushers etc - but what do I know. I only ran the complaints department for a city for ten years :) --] (]) 22:50, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
			At the end of the day, a one way interaction ban would appear to be the wrong remedy, but I don't have enough processed data to decide what the right remedy is, so I struck my vote. It seems to me that the issue of trolling socks, and the issue of the behaviour of the legitimate editors, is getting conflated, but the remedies proposed are not dealing with that. What should have happened if Arbcom was not going to support the original AE sanction was an examination of the behaviour of all parties against the checklist above, to determine where all the behaviours fall. Since everything on Misplaced Pages becomes stale so quickly, I don't know if there is still the opportunity to do this. ] (]) 17:41, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
	All the recent candidates who passed didn't have a load of FAs, and there were several with plenty of FAs who failed RFA, your name is known in AN/I and copyrights, and you did do some article work. You should pass. ] <sup>]</sup> 23:08, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
			:My initial statement included evidence of the inciting incident for the AE case that led to this sanction. I had not interacted with Mathsci for weeks when he suddenly accused me of tag-teaming and meatpuppetry without any evidence on an unrelated AE case. There is nothing in my reaction that I think was inappropriate. All I can really say is that I probably should have just ignored the comment about me so as to not allow any room for hostility, one-sided though it may have been, but I can't say for certain that it would have changed anything.--] (]) 18:37, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
	:Tell you what, if you can find a seconder (I know technically it doesn't need one, but...), I'll <s>be very surprised</s> give it serious consideration. --] (]) 23:50, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Tell you what, if you are serious, I would be honored to be your second... I just came here because I just noticed that Secret had mentioned your name at WT:RFA... you are a person who I thought for sure was an admin. I would have zero problem nominating you because, in my opinion, the EotR that is not an admin would not be too different from the EotR that is an admin. E.g. you act like one and have people defer to you as if you already were... they seek your advice and input and when you comment on subjects you get the respect of a person who has seen the ropes and is able to act in an adminly manner. That's what ultimately matters (and would be the premise of a co-nom.)---''']''' '']'' 02:37, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::^That. I need both hands to count the times I've been into your user rights log because (even though I vaguely remembered checking), I think I must be confused and that you're an admin. (Oh, and one time I was actually there to flip a switch, but who's counting?) I passed RFA this May with no more than a single FL to my credit. No ten FA's, not even one. (Not even once having sulled the carpet over at FAC). I mean, the stars are nice and all, but they're neither necessary '''or''' sufficient to pass RFA. ] 06:15, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
	*'''Strong support''': "I thought they were already an admin." Also per {{diff2|365408667|this}} and other past-interactions: editor is level-headed and has massive reserves of good-faith, helpfulness and clue. ] 14:44, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Hell, I'd vote for you. ] (]) 15:04, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
			:Things on Misplaced Pages become stale quickly, but is there any reason to assume that has happened here? In his comments in his user talk and on the request page, SilkTork mentions that if Arbcomm were to examine the questions you asked, what it needs to examine would date back at least to 2009. Having waited a few weeks shouldn't matter when examining an issue spanning three years. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:18, 10 November 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	I'll admit, I did have a concern that no bugger would vote for me (oh G-d! Not that madwoman!). If you guys are serious, I suppose I could give it a shot. Tell you what, I'll do the answers to the questions on the template, you can tell me if they make any sense.] (]) 16:43, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
	:You'd get my vote - I like mad women :-) -- ] (]) 17:24, 19 October 2010 (UTC)		::78.108.63.44 is a tor node. ] (]) 21:44, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::While we are on these historical matters, perhaps you could clear up something that has been puzzling us for some time. Mathsci is insistant that banned ] is identical with ], the link being a ]. He as the source of this information. I believe he is referring to the incident in December 2010 when Mathsci got ] coomunity banned for disruption at AN/I and then decided later that he was wrong? Anyway, perhaps you could comment on some related issues. (1) Should Mathsci be disclosing this sort of information at all? (2) Are you satisfied that you are being correctly quoted? (3) Has ArcComm indeed determined that A.K.Nole is indeed Echigo Mole? (4) Are you and ArbComm satisfied that the other users accused by Mathsci, such as ], ] and ] are equally guilty? If so, why has none of them also been banned? If not, then why is Mathsci permitted to make these frequently repeated allegations? I do hope you can clarify matters. ] (]) 22:40, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::: Hello Mr Nole (I presume it is you, and not just one of your party). I'm afraid I was just the messenger back then - it was ] who as I recall actually handled the Checkuser stuff when I joined. However, I am interested in your side of the story. Do you feel you were hard done by, and why did you decide to respond by starting this sock party, which is surely a drain on your time and energy? What do you hope to achieve by it? ] (]) 23:35, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
			:Elen, since you state that you didn't have enough data, why didn't you guys advocate opening a full case after striking your vote? In fact, after Silk Tork did some investigating on his own, you had ''more'' data than you had when you first voted. If you needed more, then wouldn't further investigation have been appropriate? ] (]) 23:50, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
			::Largely because there was a bit of a convo going on between a couple of us over what was the best thing to do, and various other folks were hopping up and down like this, and on Misplaced Pages anything over 24 hours old is stale in some people's eyes (they should try working for the Revenue - six years isn't long enough to write off a debt). In the end, it's all been archived...until the next time, which I'm sure won't be long in coming. ] (]) 00:00, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
			::::Well, since I don't feel that being one-way interaction banned just for having an argument in an AE thread is very justified, I guess you can expect an amendment motion soon. And, as obsessive as the editor at the center of all this is, I think you can expect more from that quarter, without my involvement. You guys really should have ended it now, instead of tabling it for later. ] (]) 05:03, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::::If you wish to appeal your ban, then arbitrators have already indicated that ] is the place to do that. Here's the template: ]. The remarks you are making about the "other editor at the center of all this" are not permissible until you make that appeal and your sanctions are lifted. The editor that started off the whole chain of problems was Zeromus1. I alerted Amalthea as checkuser in private on 9 September. Only in November did it become evident who was operating the account. ] (]) 05:26, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
			::::::''sigh'' * sips whiskey * <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
			:::Ah yes the next time ... ] (]) 04:50, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
			== Call of Duty template ==
	Ok creating the RFA now. ] <sup>]</sup> 17:30, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
			One more thing; users at the ] article keep reverting my work claiming they "don't need sources". They state the game '']'' is a part of the '']'' series, when in actuality although it is in the same universe, it is not in the same series. I've looked into this as well, and no sources support this claim. Nor have I ever heard COD1,2 and 3 reffered to as the "Original Trilogy". The way I see it without a source, these claims of WaW being in the Black Ops series are inaccurate. ] (]) 22:23, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
	] ] <sup>]</sup> 17:46, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Co-nom added.---''']''' '']'' 18:02, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
	Honestly, I go out to get dinner, and look what happens :) :). Thanks guys. ] (]) 18:35, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
	:I'll enthusiastically support you too! --] (]) 20:30, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Thanks! ] (]) 19:00, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
			== Replied ==
	: Your answers are good so far. ] <sup>]</sup> 17:41, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
			{{ygm}} <small>]</small> 23:06, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
	::Thanks. They will need a bit of tightening up, but I find it easier if I get everything down then edit it. ] (]) 18:59, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
	:: Added it, good luck ] <sup>]</sup> 00:32, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::Thank you. Realised I hadn't filled in the bit where I accept the nom (wack wack oops!) but have dashed over and done it now. ] (]) 00:44, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
	::: I don't recommend notifying other people about your RFA though, as that is Canvassing. Thanks ] <sup>]</sup> 01:24, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::The only folks I've done it to are Cyn and Davey, who had already posted their comments here, but I know 'em both, and they'd get totally enmeshed in some Latin thing and miss it. I certainly wouldn't do it to anyone who hadn't already discussed the whole thing, but I have precedent that you are allowed to notify the folks you've chewed it over with when the thing actually posts. ] (]) 01:34, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::''(Drives off antique haze obscuring view with an impatient wave of hand.)'' I had already watchlisted the RfA because I'd been here when it was discussed, and was about to leave a link for Davey anyway. This is a perfect example of what I said elsewhere about WP being like a monastic order with its own arcane rules, and not like a Republic of Letters: in what universe does a candidate not get to campaign for votes? So unnatural. I shall now go sup in silence. ] (]) 13:24, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
	::: Ok I understand, but it may look like canvassing to some people. ] <sup>]</sup> 01:41, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::Not if it is only two people and in the open and with reason. It's when people contact numerous people that they get ancy. BTW, it's been a while since I've nominated somebody, but I generally don't add my support until the candidate has broken 100 votes or is on their last day of candidacy---heck, I've had 3 noms that I never got around to supporting! It doesn't mean that I don't support, it's just my way of saying, "I think this candidate is so strong, that I don't need to rush in and !vote."---''']''' '']'' 02:47, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::: That was my take. Cyn and Davey aren't RfA regulars - they spend virtually all their time creating content. Interesting view on the adding support thing - I thought the nominators were counted anyway and didn't need to repeat themselves, so I wasn't surprised not to see you. ] (]) 11:26, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
	:: It seems like it's on its way to ] ] <sup>]</sup> 03:05, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Wow, I think that was the quickest 50 I've seen! -- ] (]) 09:36, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
	::There are candidates that I don't really know, that I'll need to study in some depth before !voting. Then there are candidates like Elen, where I'm going to support "as soon" as the RfA is transcluded. I did support as quickly as possible - and there were ''47'' supports ahead of me. "No bugger would vote for me"? ]! ] 09:45, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::ROFL! I'm still waiting for the 12 opposes on the grounds that I couldn't fix the parser function on the transcluded template :) ] (]) 11:28, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::Hello Elen of the Roads, I've seen you around and I've just noticed your RfA. I commented. All the best with it. :) ] (]) 23:50, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::Thank you ] (]) 23:53, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
	::: Your RFA is on pace to reach ], not acheived in a year, and that was a borderline RFA of a former admin which got desysopped a few months later, before that three years. And 200 supports is impressive considering that we are losing editors more than we gaining them. Though ] is cured only Newyorkbrad is still an active sysop. ] <sup>]</sup> 22:05, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::: He is the only one left, isn't he. that's quite remarkable. I'm not convinced this will reach 200 - I think probably everyone who would vote has voted by now, but whatever happens, I think you can take a great deal of credit for seeing more clearly than I that an RfA had a chance of success. ] (]) 22:55, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
	== dreary question ==		== Another one ==
			Think there is a new one ..... {{userlinks|65 Edits Per Hour}}. ]]<sup>]</sup> 18:47, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
	Amusingly (in light of the preceding section), I've come here, O font of procedural knowledge, to ask you a question. (Can I put a big campaign sign in my virtual yard? I'm sure that's against the rules.) Anyway.
			:You got it...:) This guy is getting to be a pain in the posterior. --] (]) 18:53, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
			:: Thanks. ]]<sup>]</sup> 19:12, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
			== Block expungement policy ==
	I ] at 20:04, 17 October. The suspected user has responded, but there's been nothing from any outside party. Could you give me some sense of the timeframe for theilluminti se things? ] (]) 14:32, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Officially no... you cannot "canvass" votes by putting virtual signs out. But it happens all the time by people going to other people's pages and posting messages "About your !vote/comment in the {blank} RfA/AFD/XFD/RFC/Village Pump." It's one of the reasons why people are cynical about the rules related to Canvassing. Canvass still happens, people just have figured out how to work the letters not the spirit of the guideline. as for the SPI question... I'll leave that to Elen.---''']''' '']'' 14:43, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
			I don't yet know when or if I will get to it, but I wanted you to know I added a comment of yours to my ]. In short, I'd like to see a procedure enabled to expunge a block from a block list, where the parties agree that the original block was in error. While some cases, such as your example, are clear-cut, the boundaries are tricky, so I'm not ready to propose until I'm ready to spend some time on it.--]] 21:22, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
	::The rules against canvassing always seem fishy to me. Rather like the "civility" rules. They seem to keep people from functioning in normally social or political ways, and encourage passive-aggressive behavior and all sorts of soul-destroying tactics, as you point out. (And surely the ] is meant to be a satire?) Both "rules" require me to accept restrictions on freedoms of speech and association that I would rebel against IRL. There's a difference between calling someone a name and saying "you can't possibly believe that load of rubbish." The former is ''ad hominem'', the latter not. Not being allowed to post a message on the talk pages of editors I respect saying "Hey, here's an admin candidate whose wisdom I praise" shows what a bizarre "community" this is, much more akin to a monastic order than a Republic of Letters.] (]) 15:13, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
			:That's the tricky thing. Where do you draw the line beyond the situation where the admin immediately says 'oh dear, wrong dude' or equivalent. --] (]) 22:30, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
			::Would this review any blocks made back in the "old days" (say, 2006) that were questionable? I have one of those, a "I blocked myself" block, and a "Oops, my bad" block, plus associated annotation. --''']]]''' 22:32, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
			::: That would be for the community to decide. My alternate account ] was blocked because someone thought it was an impersonator, which amuses me no end, but it does seem unfair generally that a block that all sides agree was totally based on some mistake, cannot be properly deleted. --] (]) 23:03, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
			::::It's technically enabled - I tried blocking my bot and testing it, but of course the consensus isn't here to use it. --''']]]''' 23:04, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
			::::: I thought all you can do is revdel it, and that still leaves a record in the block log. I did't think you can oversight it....???? --] (]) 23:16, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
			::::::It's only revdel. I don't have OS, so I can't comment on if it can be done that way. --''']]]''' 23:20, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
			::::::: It should leave a struck through line, so anyone can see that this editor was blocked, but not the reason. ] (]) 23:41, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
			::::::::Oh, okay. I did my test a while ago, so I remember it did something, but didn't remember exactly what. :) --''']]]''' 23:45, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::::::::Actually may be wrong. I forget - I have oversight, so I can always see where an edit has been revision deleted
			- it shows that a block happened at a specific time but everything else is blocked out, at least for me. If I look at the revision specifically, I can see everything as an admin. (Don't worry, I'll undo this :) ) --''']]]''' 00:04, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
	::::) :) Re SPI - I have created userpages for ], ] and ]. I have no idea why he couldn't do same, took me all of 30 seconds although he may not care for the results. If he would replace those templates with a message about legitimate socks, and stop editing logged out, this would solve one problem at a stroke. As it is, SPI cases do tend to hang about a bit. --] (]) 16:35, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
			:Don't worry, there isn't a problem with testing (I've got a load of revdels of move logs, testing something for someone last week). Do you think it's worse to see a block with no reason? Or a block with a reason followed by an apologetic unblock. I wonder if you can oversight the block log. Half a mo.....] (]) 00:12, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::Thanks for your help. I'm aware that this may sound disingenuous, but I really didn't think there was an intention to deceive — just lack of awareness of proper procedure. That's why I tried to keep other issues separate, except to show why I thought they were all the same user (continuity of voice) and to point toward the potential for masking problems under multiple identities. As for mechanics, you may recall earlier issues with the talk page of the ] — repeated entries, insistence that stuff had been deleted or reverted that wasn't, and so on. ] (]) 17:28, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::I gathered your issue wasn't to do with deception, that's why I thought this might work as a remedy. At least if he is clear that they are all him, you can be sure who it is you might have the problem with. I do think he has a bit of a competence issue - he doesn't seem to get along well with the MediaWiki interface at all.] (]) 18:34, 19 October 2010 (UTC)		::What do you see now - I've oversighted it. ] (]) 00:14, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::It's completely gone. There's one block and 2 unblocks. --''']]]''' 00:26, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::He has a profound command of the subject matter, but doesn't seem able to see that concerns expressed about his material have to do with how it's presented. ] (]) 19:12, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
			:::: Yay. So if there was a policy, an admin could ask an oversighter to oversight his snafu. And if there was a different policy, some community decision making process could ask an oversighter to remove a bad block (an error of judgement, not a complete foul up). Could you check your own admin log, to see if it has disappeared from there as well. ] (]) 00:30, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::::The block has, but the revdel is still visible (though I suppose it could be OS'ed as well). However, clicking on the associated link results in "The action you have requested is limited to users in one of the groups: Oversighters, afttest-hide." --''']]]''' 00:34, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::::<small>Peanut gallery notes</small> You'd wanna disappear the unblock, too. (Us peons can count) <small>]</small> 00:38, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
			{{od}}FTR, I don't want it completely disappeared. I would like it if there were some record, somewhere, that includes all the blocks, even the inadvertent ones, to help make sure the system isn't gamed. But make it so that the block log easily viewable would contain only those that were in the oopsie category. I don't even want to remove those where many admins would say they wouldn't block in those circumstances, and the original blocking admin agrees it was a little overzealous. Leave that one there. I want to remove only those like the "Oops I thought it was an impersonator, don't I feel foolish", or "oh yeah, that comment was directed at you, not by you". Some of this is personal. I have a clean block log, plan to keep it that way, and would be royally pissed if someone accidentally blocked me. If I'm skating near the edge, and someone blocks me, even if many wouldn't that's on me. But if someone misreads a diff, or clicks the wrong button, I'd sure like it if that could be removed from the main block log, and I'd be happy that it remains in the longer record. I want to be able to say "I have a clean block log". I don't want to have to say, well, when you look at my block log, here's what you need to know..."--]] 01:01, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
			:Of course there should be a method to remove a mistaken block from the main log (although I agree there should be a publicy viewable audit trail somewhere). Another point is that sometimes a misguided admin blocks a user, then unblocks them a few hours later when an ANI discussion shows they were mistaken. The problem is that I have seen a couple of cases where the unblock was dripping with a "you got away with it this time" attitude in the unblock edit summary, when the summary should have said "community consensus is that the block was totally wrong, sorry". Any new scheme needs a way for another admin to annotate the record with the correct summary, however, firm guidelines would be needed to reduce the amount of wasted time in considering "review my block log" requests from the usual suspects. ] (]) 02:22, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
			:: To my mind in the second instance, you would want an audit trail of the admin's bad block and subsequent conduct (in case he made a habit of it). Another admin could revdel the unblock summary, but without a technical change they wouldn't be able to amend it. You could do a hack by reblocking and unblocking with a better summary, then having the original block and the reblock oversighted, but I don't think that's at all a good solution.] (]) 12:48, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
			*As the first part of the process, I'd like to suggest a change to the Oversight policy to allow suppression of a block/unblock entry in the block log where the following conditions are met:
			::# The block resulted from a factual error(admin has blocked the wrong user) not from an error of judgement on the part of the admin (admin intended to block the user, but block is not supported by policy/consensus).
			::# The admin who made the block is the one requesting suppression
			::# The user has already been unblocked and advised that suppression will be requested
			::Technically, Arbcom isn't supposed to make policy (before anyone makes that point), but I'm just proposing this as an admin who has made a screw up. I think it would be preferable to separate this out from developing a policy on errors of judgement, as this is much more clear cut and should be less contentious. Thoughts anyone? ] (]) 13:06, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::So I assume this would include admin blocking self. {{smiley}} --''']]]''' 20:13, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
			::::No, that would definitely be excluded {{smiley|devil}} ] (]) 22:26, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
			All block log entries should be expunged automatically by the software 6 months after the unblock, if the person isn't reblocked in that interval. There is entirely too much drama and long term conflict from people getting pissy about block logs. Giano was a mostly-sane editor until he melted down over a block, similarly Mbz1, Malleus, etc. If someone does something bad enough that it needs to be remembered longer than 6 months, then people will remember it, there will be discussion threads to point at, etc. What we have now is a moronic combination of kindergarten and Orwell: ''"this is going on your permanent record!!!"'' The book ''Delete: The Virtue of Forgetting in the Digital Age'' ({{ISBN|0691150362}}) looks very interesting. We do not need to memorialize all this stuff, just because we have enough computers to each be our own little FBI Records Division. ] (]) 00:23, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			This discussion has been mentioned at ]. --] (]) 09:40, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
	::Re canvassing - you can alert other users to the presence of an RfA/AfD or whatever TlA is on today. The idea is that once there, they will see your position on the discussion. It's kind of logical. ] (]) 16:37, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
	== SPI ==		== ANI response ==
			I wroting the response your complaint on ANI. --] (]) 01:05, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
	Thank you for fixing the userpages. However I cannot acknowledge the accounts Aldrasto and Zanzan1 as I forgot the passsword and as you can see they are no longer active. I understand that I have to write on Zanzan32 page: this is a legitimate account of Aldrasto11, have not I?] (]) 11:11, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
			== and another ? ==
	== ] ==
			what about {{userlinks|Keep UFC Articles}} ? ]]<sup>]</sup> 19:20, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
	Sorry for the accusations. I've switched to support. I hope we can have a more friendly relationship in the future. ] (]) 12:27, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
	:I hope so too. You have my utmost respect. --] (]) 13:55, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
	Amusingly, I had no idea this was going on until I saw an edit summary on Malleus' page. :-) Good luck! --] (]) 14:03, 22 October 2010 (UTC)		.....and another one gone, and another one gone...another one bites the dust! (although Black Kite was the one that got him) --] (]) 22:32, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
	:Malleus supports me and you still voted for me? XDXDXD --] (]) 14:05, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
			==WP:RFAR==
	BTW, I thought your answer to Keeps (#6) was one of the best RfA answers I've ever seen.---''']''' '']'' 21:47, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
			You might take notice of my discussion at ]. I appreciate your open-minded and thoughtful consideration during what was/is obviously an uncomfortable situation. Of course, the decision is still entirely within the domain of ArbCom, but I felt the information may be of use to you. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 20:20, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
	:Thanks, it was fun. I wonder does Keeps ever get anyone tell him to bugger off though. SandyGeorgia's is the tricky one though, particularly as Wehwalt has somehow interpreted a personal remark I made to Malleus that I wouldn't block him (or indeed others) if he sounded off at me, because I'm used to filtering out that stuff, into a statement that I don't believe in civility. Me! Ah well. --] (]) 21:59, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Well, be careful with your responses to Weh, they are sounding a little... I dunno... defensive or aggressive? I suspect/hope that it is more a matter of you two communicating past each other, but...---''']''' '']'' 03:57, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::I think somehow we are. He needs to evaluate my response to Sandy (when I finally post it - it's turned into a 1000 word essay, so I need to cut it back), then we may be able to communicate further.] (]) 09:59, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::Ah, the ]! Should have linked it. I doubt if any civil servant would want that on their CV; "blind passion for cause kills it stone dead". Your essay (see above) bears witness to your insight; so does every response you've made at your RfA. Very heartening, and I'll be following developments. Any comments I make on the latter will (I hope) be less obscure. Well, maybe. ] (]) 16:24, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::Ah, that debacle. I was thinking you didn't seem the kind of chap to be referring to the ]. ] (]) 16:43, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
			== ''The Signpost'': 12 November 2012 ==
	==Could you take a look?==
	After the AFD you raised at a related article, I was wondering if you could take a look at this - ]? It seems to suffer from the same problems you raised here ]. I particularly liked your cocktail party line, and after reading this list, thought the same thing. It seems most of this list is more like trivia. There have never been more than a handful of candidates that received serious attention from anyone. Thanks. ] (]) 13:42, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
	:I'll take a look over the weekend. I need to read the sources. --] (]) 14:22, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Sorry to further ruin your weekend, Elen, but you might find some relevant stuff on also. I know it's long. :-( Perhaps says it all in small compass. ] | ] 14:54, 22 October 2010 (UTC).
	:::Well, it's mixing apples and oranges. I suppose you should also note that Bishonen is an involved editor who has advocated deleting all authorship articles from Misplaced Pages ''completely''. You might note my comment here as well ]. ] (]) 15:27, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::Absolutely, do note those things! What a good idea! ] | ] 15:39, 22 October 2010 (UTC).
	::As I said, I am aware of the background, and do not wish to say anything serious (as opposed to jokes about Darwinfish) until I have had a chance to review the lot. --] (]) 15:52, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
	==Talkback==
	{{talkback|Special Cases|October 2010|ts=08:27, 23 October 2010 (UTC)}}
			<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
	== Cookie ==
			{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2012-11-12}}
			</div><!--Volume 8, Issue 46-->
			<div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">
			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 12:08, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
			</div>
			<!-- EdwardsBot 0400 -->
			== Help with upset editor ==
	<div style="border-style:solid; border-color:blue; background-color:AliceBlue; border-width:1px; text-align:left; padding:8px;" class="plainlinks">]
			Hi Elen of the Roads. I am involved in an AFD discussion that has gone strange. User:Qworty has struck my text and accused me of being the blocked paid editor Morning277. I see from the investigation that you have recently been involved, so I was hoping you could assist. I'm a new editor and have made less than 20 edits to discussions. I've never edited an article. I'm happy to turn over my account for a user investigation. Can you please help? ] (]) 04:46, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
	Special Cases has given you a ]! Cookies promote ] and hopefully this one has made your day better. You can Spread the "WikiLove" by giving someone else a cookie, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. <br />
			:I have asked Qworty to file a request for a check in the appropriate place, as that is the correct operating procedure. Making allegations in the middle of a deletion discussion is not the way to go. However, if you are a new editor, I'm a duck, so would you care to advise me as to any previous editing you have done. You can do so privately by email if you prefer. --] (]) 12:47, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
			::I just wanted to note that several editors have commented about several aspects of Qworty's conduct and editing practices and they seem very resistent. Many can be seen be reading through the users talk page and checking out the contribs. It might be time for an intervention. ] (]) 14:21, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::Ok. I'm happy to discuss here. I've been a member since Sep. 25 but I made my first real edit on Nov. 9, although I did make one small edit to an article from my IP address before I created an account. That was probably a year ago and I assume it will show in the check user. My primary interest is in policy, so I've done quite a bit of reading in the Misplaced Pages space but haven't made any contributions in that regard. Out of boredom I have spent several hours watching discussions on the Misplaced Pages IRC help channel. That's my full Wiki bio ] (]) 17:09, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
			::::] seems to go against ]. My interest in Qworty started with ] where in his zeal to combat COI he assumed that a drama student somewhat incompetently editing an article about a drama specialist (for a coursework assignment) was a ] showing ] and added an incorrect and confusing banner without any prior enquiry or discussion, in an apparent lack of ] and in contravention of the guidelines at ] ("First approach...", "If you are sure..."). ]] 17:53, 15 November 2012 (UTC) amended 18:17, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
			== I would like to encourage you... ==
	To spread the goodness of cookies, you can add {{tls|Cookie}} to someone's talk page with a friendly message, or eat this cookie on the giver's talk page with {{tls|munch}}!
			to run for ArbCom again. It's a thankless task, and I'm certain it's a terrible timesink, but I'd feel better if you were running. ] (]) 09:29, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
	{{clear}}
			:Hear hear ]<sup>TT</sup>(]) 09:33, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
			*I'll be honest, I had been very much in two minds about running anyway - I have been very brassed off by certain events. Then, it looks like "civility woo-woo" is going to form a key issue for this election, and while I have no concern about anyone asking my position (see ] where I've been working up thoughts I initially expressed at my RfA), I have a real concern about how the debate might be conducted. It is (in my opinion, I'm sure all politicians everywhere would disagree) low politics to pick on individuals to highlight the issues of the day, creating victims or bogeymen usually without the consent of the individuals concerned. Certain parties have indicated that they intend to ask ''why did you not sanction ] for this statement or that phrase'' relating to certain contentious discussions on sanctions from the recent past. This has the potential to turn into a rerun of the original request to sanction, which is simply not fair to any third party being picked on for the next ] when he never wanted to be ] in the first place.
			*I appreciate that this is a bit of a convoluted statement, probably makes no sense to anyone else, and I'm probably worrying about nothing. The community by and large has good sense and would probably see through this kind of behaviour if anyone was to try it. And the other community issue - the role and structure of Arbcom itself - is an excellent topic for discussion, ranging from ''replace it with a couple of WMF staffers'' to ''triple the size and create "lower courts"''. --] (]) 13:20, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
			:* It makes sense to one who hangs out in the unsavory gutters of Misplaced Pages. If you're willing to continue to serve, that'd be great; reading ], it's certainly understandable if you choose not to. As regards to any "why did (didn't) you..." questions, I'd suggest approximately ''Because based on the information available to me it was in the best interests of Misplaced Pages. I explained my reasoning to the best of my ability at the time of closing; further discussion at this point is simply not fair to to the parties involved in the case.'' Make template, subst as required... Sure, you might lose some of the ArbCom-make-policy-by-fiat crowd, but I'm confident (hopeful?) the grown-up vote will prevail. <small>]</small> 13:49, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
			:*I had not seen that essay before, Elen. I'm glad you linked it. It is good to see we share many common ideas. I had already decided to support if you were to make another run, but those words help solidify my support. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 13:53, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
			* Please run again. You do this difficult job very well. --] (]) 04:21, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
			* '''+1''' I agree with all those above. I was going to try and write something profound to encourage you - but then I found out most of what I would have said is already said better, ]. <span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#000;">]&thinsp;]</span> 04:38, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
			::I did not vote for you when you were elected. I would like the opportunity to remedy that.--] (]) 16:17, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::Thank you. I never thought of it, but I suppose if I had, I would probably not have expected you to vote for me, as you had expressed concerns at my RfA. I'm pleased you don't think I've made a complete hash of it - it often feels ''as an Arb'' as if one is reduced to picking the least worst option. ] (]) 00:37, 18 November 2012 (UTC) (inserted italics - realised that sentence could be read two ways ] (]) 10:33, 18 November 2012 (UTC))
			* I don't suppose you know me from Adam, but I came here to say that I voted for you in 2010 and hope to have the opportunity to do so again. I may not agree with you all the time, but I see yours as a consistent voice of reason and I believe you care deeply about the project. Fwiw. ] (]) 06:39, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
			*I notice you have yet to add your name to the pile, so I assume you are mulling it over. No one could blame you, it is generally a thankless job. While I sometimes grump at the Committee (a favorite pass-time of many Wikipedians), and freely admit I should grump a bit less, the committee is better because of you. I guess you have to ask if you are better because of it. Whatever you decide, thanks for what you have done. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 16:22, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
			*Voice of reason. I hope you will consider running again. (] (]) 17:32, 19 November 2012 (UTC))
			]
			**Good to hear. Hope it didn't take too many pints to talk yourself into another two years of bludgeoning. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 01:43, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
			== ANI ==
			I was looking to see the denouement of the Kraxler ANI at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents, but it is gone, I do not see it in the archives either. Can you find it for me? --] (]) 14:59, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
			*{{tps}} Using the search feature, it should be one of these: ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 15:03, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
			:] <small>]</small> 15:22, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
			==Thank You==
			I wanted to thank you for your comment to Qworty regarding the level of hostility in his/her interactions with me. You are quite right; there have been no real conflicts between me and other editors in the past 2-3 years. This recent attack on over 30 articles I've created and/or edited has been quite a shock, and I've bit my lip and tried not to react in kind. Whole reference sections and properly-constructed bibliographies have been deleted as "unsourced", then the articles have been nominated for deletion as "non-notable". I welcome any attention you can give to the issue (understanding that your comment did not mean you were taking sides or anything).] (]) 19:47, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
			:Elen, could you perhaps have a look at the recent history of ]? I've acted boldly. ]] 07:21, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
			::While the notability of the subject is a little marginal, that merge discussion was closed five years ago at the time Rosencomet's editing was being examined by Arbcom. Popping up now and announcing that the consensus is to merge is just plain disruptive. --] (]) 13:34, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::I would like to thank you for looking into this matter, and for your actions. I would ask you to look at ]s Qworty edits as well. I would also like to point out that Qworty's Starwood crusade, as another editor called it, has affected over thirty articles. Three have already been deleted as non-notable; at least ten more have been nominated. In several cases it has included wholesale deletion of entire reference sections and bibliographies as "unsourced", and other IMO questionable practices. There have been many tags for non-notability on prominent authors such as ] and ], and musicians/bands like ] and ]. The COI tags are also problematic; they all seem to be assumptions that an appearance at the ], even twenty or thirty years ago, means I should not be allowed to edit the article, although the arbcom decided no such thing. Also, some of the articles are of people that have NEVER appeared there, like ] and ]. This has every indication, IMO, of an attack by someone I have locked horns with in the past editing under a new name. You'll find a list on my talk page.] (]) 17:09, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::: Yes, I wondered if he had a previous incarnation. Not a problem obviously, as long as the other account is retired and not blocked. Don't get me wrong - I'm no fan of spam - but there isn't a problem if an article started a bit spammy, and got improved over time. And tagging Monaghan and Buckland for non-notability is just nonsense. I've been thinking his edits warrant a closer look. --] (]) 20:07, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
			::::: Further check shows the account was created in 2007 under this username, so maybe you've had a run-in with him before. I've restored Raymond Buckland and am adding references - Google Books is a great source in this area. Should you have a copy of any of the varied "encyclopaedias of witchcraft" I believe they will be evidence of Buckland's status within the community. I'll see if I can track down some publishers stats as well. A lot of the others you list I know almost nothing about. --] (]) 21:23, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
			::::::I greatly appreciate your efforts. As to his/her identity, there are a few possibilities, some of them blocked. I was never convinced, for instance, that we tracked down all of Mattisse's sockpuppets. (She was the one who caused much of my problem in 2006, first demanding citations of non-controversial material, then accusing me of link-farming when I supplied them.)
			::::::I guess the ones actually nominated for deletion are the most critical. Of those, ], ], ], ], ] and the South African band ] are probably the most ridiculous to call non-notable. A look at the pre-Qworty versions will demonstrate that easily. Which is not to say that the sourcing doesn't merit more work, just to be fair.] (]) 16:23, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::::::: Someone would have noticed if he was Mattisse, believe me. And he seems to have taken my advice and moved on to bringing some old articles up to snuff. Only Donald Michael Kraig and Kenny Klein are actually up for deletion - I've never heard of either, but it won't hurt to look for sources. I'll finish Buckland over the weekend - I'm surprised it was in such a poor state, there are a lot of sources about Buckland and Gardner particularly. ] (]) 18:07, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
			::::::::: Sorry; some have had their deletion nominations removed. Here is an updated list of articles Qworty has nominated for deletion that still have the tag. Of course, you might not agree that none of these should be so tagged; frankly, I have already said as much about Brushwood. I don't intend to sway you, just to ask you to review their pre-Qworty versions and see what you think. Thanks again.:
			], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ] and ].
			:OK. I've taken a look at them all. There's nothing to stop you contributing in the AfDs by the way, particularly if you have any more sources, and from replacing deleted content if you have a ]. From the top of the list
			* ] AfD is heading for keep, meets ]
			* ] not at AfD and I am working on it
			* ] snow kept at AfD (I think Qworty is unfamiliar with the world music scene, to be fair)
			* ] I have removed the tags - you removed the suspect coi editing (someone kept replacing the article with the content of her website) and there are reviews in world music publications
			* ] I have removed COI tag but left the notability tag, as I think notability is not well evidenced and another couple of sources supporting notability wouldn't hurt
			* ] I have opined on the AfD that I think he meets ] based on the ] reference in the Encyclopedia of Wicca and Witchcraft
			* ] Removed four tags, article could do with more content but subject has demonstrated notability from the outset
			* ] I have removed the COI tag but left the notability tag as there is not much in the article. You can help by finding some sources that demonstrate notability. If you find a source, you can restore some of the deleted content, otherwise someone else may nominate him at AfD (in fact, somebody has)
			* ] I have removed the refimprove tag as the small amount of content is cited. Subject is definitely notable. The long list of references seems excessive for the two lines of content, so I presume it sources some removed content. If you want to add back any removed content, include an inline citation.
			* ] Is he better known for his music? I can find very little that suggests the wider world has noticed him
			* ] AfD is debating either creating an article for the book he co-authored or redirecting to the article on ]
			* ] at AfD. Doesn't look as if anyone can find evidence of notability
			* ] at Afd, should be kept. You should opine there
			* ] At AfD. If I were closing (which I'm definitely not) I would keep
			* ] At AfD and likely to be deleted. Another editor has decided to improve it, and seems to have made things rather worse
			* ] no comments at AfD. Really doubt this chap is notable in Misplaced Pages definition
			* ] you've already said yourself that notability is pretty marginal
			* ] At Afd - Steve with his Highbeam account has turned up that she was interviewed by the Chicago-Sun-Times in 2005 and her column in New Witch magazine got a mention in the Washington Post in 2003. I have opined that the CST article should take her over the bar.
			* ] At AfD - doesn't look like this guy is notable in Misplaced Pages terms
			::The David Jay Brown article has been deleted. I thought it ended a bit early since the "vote" (I know it isn't really) was tied, and the editor who closed it referred to Brown as part of the "Crackpot Fringe". Hopefully someone without my perceived COI will recreate it one day. Oh well.
			::In the meantime, there are a few of Qworty's deletion nominations that really should, IMO, be closed: ], ], ], ] and ] have overwhelmingly "Keep" comments. Could you or someone else please consider closing these? Thank you.] (]) 20:09, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::Just FYI - ], ] and ] have already closed. The decision on each was Keep. ] (which was extended) and ] are still open. ] (]) 14:58, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
			== ] ==
			Given the latest {{userlinks|MtPrincess}}, is there a range block that might help out ? ]]<sup>]</sup> 20:05, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
			: one other question any link between this and ] or ] ]]<sup>]</sup> 20:14, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
			:: CUs who knew A Nobody better than I say they do not believe either Temporary for Bonaparte or BStudent0 is him. I've been blocking IPs sequentially - at this rate I could end up blocking every campus in Ohio. --] (]) 22:29, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
			== Followup ==
			Did you get to this ? <small>]</small> 00:36, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
			:Haven't had time yet. If someone else wants to pick it up, feel free. --] (]) 01:00, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
			::No worries. You get to when you get to it. Ents famously prefer not to be hasty. Was mostly checking to make sure nothing was stuck in a spam filter somewhere. <small>]</small> 01:04, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
			==]==
			I promised to not post again on his talk page and I won't. But these two edits are concerning. I don't think he understands the message you posted two weeks ago that he cannot edit while he's blocked. Or maybe he thought he could legitimately edit with his old ] account.
			Contrary to what some people may think, I don't necessarily want Bull-Doser to stay blocked for eternity. It would be great to see Bull-Doser becoming a positive contributor someday. I think he has the potential to bring a lot to Misplaced Pages if only he would listen to others for a change instead of living in his world. But edits such as these two recent ones coupled with his lack of interaction with others makes me think that he's not ready yet to be back. ] (]) 04:02, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
			*I've been following this one since day one, and I tend to agree that there appears to be an incapacity to comprehend. It isn't about willingness, it is about ability. Sutble, but real. I had declined an earlier request for different reasons, but the exchanges all over the talk page speak for themselves. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 04:10, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
			*The Take Me Higher account is blocked so he can't use it. He just seems very clueless, and so far he's not particularly listening to some of the explanations. --] (]) 11:03, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
			== A brownie for you! ==
			{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
			|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ]
			|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Just because. ]] (]) 06:07, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
			|}
			:Thank you so kindly :) And virtual brownies contain no sugar! Its all good. --] (]) 11:05, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
			== Yay! ==
			I was worried it wasn't going to happen. --] (]) 01:26, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
			:There was some concern here also. This will be an "interesting" election, with certain tactical considerations to voting. ] (]) 05:15, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
			*I've hit something of a timing snag. I wasn't intending to run, and because of that arranged to go on holiday for four days from tomorrow (hubby and I are going to Edinburgh for a late birthday treat). I then allowed myself to be talked into running (you know who you are, damn you!) at a point where outside activities have eaten up my time (if I say I'm heading up a project that involves building work and a deadline and a health and safety course with a written exam....). So I'm not going to get all the questions - most of the questions even - answered. Just have to see how that goes; lacking the ability to clone myself, there's not much else I can do. --] (]) 11:37, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
			::It doesn't bother me; I don't have any questions. --] (]) 12:05, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
			::Well, as Otter told Flounder in ] 'You fucked up .... you trusted us.' {{or}} I suggest posting a note on your candidate page saying you'll be offline on <nowiki>{{ engvar | default=holiday | en-us=vacation }}</nowiki> during the question period. <small>]</small> 13:00, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::I'll see what I can get done and post that note this evening. ] (]) 14:17, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
			::::For the record, the tree shaping case is nothing personal; I didn't even realize that it was the case you drafted. --''']]]''' 22:08, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
			== ''The Signpost'': 19 November 2012 ==
			<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
			{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2012-11-19}}
			</div><!--Volume 8, Issue 47-->
			<div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">
			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 01:27, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
	</div>		</div>
			<!-- EdwardsBot 0403
	]</em> <em style="font-family:Jokerman;color:red">]</em> <sup>]</sup> 12:00, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
			# RECIPIENTS (CATEGORY) -->
	==RfA==
			==Enjoy Yourself==
	If I hadn't already supported I'd've put "support per Wehwalt". ] <sup><small>]</small></sup>] 17:57, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Oh dear.... :) --] (]) 18:04, 23 October 2010 (UTC)		Just wanted to take a moment to wish you a Happy Thanksgiving!] (]) 12:42, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
	{{tb|Sven Manguard}}
	You'll want to read this one. And I believe everything I said. <span style="text-shadow:#2f4f4f 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span> 19:26, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
	:You realize I am going to have to do everything I can think of to torpedo your RfA considering that with several days left you are only 5 votes shy of my total as per ], right? Did you ever by any chance pose for some questionable photos I can plaster hither and yon? ] (]) 00:00, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Yes, but unfortunately what's questionable is my taste in frocks (ew, mum! put it back on the rail! that wouldn't even look good on a couch!). Perhaps I should sing - yes, that's it. I can't hold a note in a pail, so if I sing all my edits from now on, that should do it nicely. --] (]) 00:04, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
			== Notification of statement ==
	== Civility ==
			This is to notify you that you have been named in a ] issued by the arbitrators not running for re-election, regarding the recent leaks from arbcom-l. If you have comments regarding the statement, please post them to the Arbitration Committee's Noticeboard talk page at ]. For the Arbitration Committee, ] <sup>(]/]/])</sup> 05:32, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	Hi Elen! I think that your answers to questions #9 and #10 in your RfA could form the basis of a rewrite of ]. I have thought as you have for sometime now. I also think that a lot of other Wikipedians feel the same. It would be nice to see a pragmatic civility policy take root here (#9), ''and'' to not see wheel-warring blocking and unblocking (#10). Thanks! — ''']]''' 19:41, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
			:Elen, who did you leak the private emails to? ] (]) 07:05, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			:Also, are you the butler in the ]? :) ''']''' 08:27, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			::Lol. But seriously, I haven't been forwarding emails anonymously to anyone. The actual words (now I believe on JClemens userpage) were not what made me mad, it was the intent to carry out what appeared to me to be an attack on another editor as part of his election campaign. I discussed his stated approach in depth with someone in a private chat, then I put the note you will see above on my talkpage a week ago. The worrying thing is that someone else is allegedly sending emails to people (or Coren at least). --] (]) 13:18, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	'''P.S.''' I also liked your answer vis-à-vis forum shopping at AN/I. — ''']]''' 19:42, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
			== Please resign ==
	:I agree. At the very least, your answer to question 9 will make an excellent essay for the community to mull over.
	:When your RfA is over you might want to take your answer to questions 9 and 10, plus any other wisdom in your arsenal, and take it to RfC or somewhere similar. This might just be the best shot Misplaced Pages has had in months at making WP:CIVIL into something useful. It's a crumbling pillar, and has been for the longest time.<small> I do recommend that you wait until after the RfA though, as taking this to RfC will demand careful shepherding and lots of time spent on making it work. Even clear and coherent concepts and well formulated ideas tend to be misunderstood and deliberately distorted occasionally.</small> <span style="text-shadow:#FFA500 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span> 20:09, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Thanks Spike, Sven... Yeah, need to get this over, then see if something less rambling (and this is the cut down version) can be extracted and worked on by the community. --] (]) 20:23, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::Thanks for the talkback template; that wasn't really necessary as I am watching your RfA anyway. You asked me to clarify if I was supporting or neutral. I could only support if you further clarified your stance on ]; it isn't clear from , for example, that you really understand the difference yet between incivility and profanity. I struck my oppose because I saw evidence in your answers that you were prepared to think about the problem of enforcement; I would need to see more to support. The arguments raised in Wehwalt's oppose still concern me, just not enough to oppose. Consider me a neutral for now; it looks like you will comfortably pass without my support anyway. Good luck. --] (]) 18:50, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::I've been doing the talkback thing as a courtesy for everyone. Your observation makes me smile: I have 25 years in customer service - I've seen pretty much every definition of 'incivility' going. My whole point is that there isn't a definition of it that everyone would agree with - sometimes people even define civility differently depending on whether it relates to how they treat others or how others treat them. The question was only a procedural one - you have struck !votes in two categories - did you intend to !vote in the third category or were you effectively withdrawing. Whichever - it is up to you. I hope if our paths cross in the future, we can continue to have civil exchanges whatever happens at this RfA. ] (]) 19:21, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::You're right that there are a lot of different interpretations of civility and incivility on the project. I'd like you to think specifically of two questions. I haven't added these to your RfA for good reason. Q1; where does WP:CIVIL end and WP:NPA begin? Q2; where does a campaign to reform a rule become a WP:POINT violation? Best wishes, --] (]) 14:25, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::::I would say that the problem in Q1 is that so very much of it is in the perception of the hearer. In some societies, failure to use the correct form of address (inferior to superior) is considered a huge insult, in others, insisting on the correct form of address is considered a put down. So Academician Foo will be quite accepting of a joshing "that's rubbish and you know it Foo" from a respected superior, but "please remember to use an edit summary" from an inferior is just completely out of it. And yet, it cannot be left wholly to the perception of the recipient, otherwise the speaker will never know where the line is. One must give the speaker some clear minimum line, so he is not hostage to the unknown sensibilities of the hearer; and yet at the same time provide that once he knows the sensibilities of the hearer, he does not play on them. And on the third hand (OK, I'm ]), it is possible to deliver a wholly civil personal attack. Just watch any chick flick set in a school - you'll see experts at work.
			Elen, please resign from the Arbcom and your adminship, effectively immediately. ] (]) 07:49, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::To me - and this is not a list, it's some off the cuff musings - a personal attack might be insulting someone's intelligence - but that would include the 'this is a foolish statement' kind of phrasing, where it is likely to be read as 'this is the statement of a fool'. It might be insulting their motives - and here a defense of truth really is twisting the knife. "You are a nationalist bigot" "That's a personal attack" "No, it's a statement of the truth" (and I have heard a respected admin make that argument). Sustained sniping and cattiness (not you again? did anyone hear a noise? I think we can ignore X) are intended to undermine self esteem, and so constitute attacks even if they are not ad hominem tirades.
			::Please use your main account, ]. ] &#124; ] 17:48, 26 November 2012 (UTC).
			:Hej IP! Your statement is in violation of my copyright, which was asserted 2 years ago! Misplaced Pages takes copyright violations very seriously, you should know! <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 13:04, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			Hi Elen!
	::::::::As to the other - in the real world, campaigns for what is perceived as justice or reform can form a view that it is legitimate to use disruption - or even violence - to achieve their ends. In a Misplaced Pages setting there should theoretically be no need for disruption, as the governance is intended to allow anyone to raise any issue at any time and ask the community to decide on it. Where, generally speaking, disruption arises is where the party raising the issue either feel they are being ignored, or where they do not care for the general consensus, so they take more extreme actions which others view as disruptive. Since I have no doubt that you are intending this question in respect of the civility issue however, I would say that it is quite clear that the great majority of editors do not want to try to work in a bearpit, and that editors do leave because people are rude and nasty. And let us be honest here, it is not abstract 'incivility', it is downright rudeness and nastiness - I was one of the people who made submissions to Ottava Rima's arbcom case. Huge contributor, very intelligent, but it was impossible to edit with the man - he bullied, browbeat, belitled and insulted everyone he came across. And yet, our civility policy did him a huge disservice, because right up to the end, he never thought he had crossed its lines, and he thought Arbcom would uphold him. Coming back to disruption, I would say that attempting to elevate the profile of the issue by being rude to people is singularly unproductive, but continuing to raise it in a more discursive manner is not disruptive, as the matter of what exactly the policy should say is still open to discussion.] (]) 15:15, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
			Please just take it easy for a day. I trust that you had good reasons. My guess is that you wanted to warn the possible victims of leaks, having learned from previous leaking scandals the damages that can occur.
	{{od}} Ok, thank you, that's good enough for me to support. --] (]) 15:25, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Thank you for your confidence in me.] (]) 16:45, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
	::No, thank you for giving such brilliant and thoughtful answers, which more than reassured me. I think the key to the problem may be in your quote ''sometimes people even define civility differently depending on whether it relates to how they treat others or how others treat them''; an old colleague once said to me ''"You should judge yourself by the outcomes of your actions, and judge others by their intentions. It's regrettable that most people do it the other way around"'' and that's become my expression of the insight that you have there. <small>This is just conversation now btw; I'm definitely not going to change my !vote a 4th time over this former concern whatever you reply.</small> --] (]) 03:07, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::Yes, I've heard that saying as well, and I think it's a good one. Hopefully there can be more useful conversations on this subject in the future. ] (]) 00:32, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
			Sincerely, <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 13:08, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	== Not Spanish ==
	WHUT the hell I have no idea how to speak fluent Spanish... I am fluent with english and chinese. --'''] ] ] ]''' 00:25, 25 October 2010 (UTC)		If you resign over what is essentially fallout from the worst behaviour by an arbitrator I have ever seen, attempting to deflect attention from his own indefensible statements and actions, then I'll retire. Difference is - lots of people would miss you, and your enormous contribution. <span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#000;">]&thinsp;]</span> 13:26, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:Oh dear! I apologise. For some reason I thought you were spanish. I must be mixing you up with someone... Hell, yes I am. The guy who posted the barnstar on your talkpage is a Spanish speaker. Cheez, how to feel a fool. Just scrub the comment on your talkpage with the edit summary "mad woman thinks I'm spanish". --] (]) 00:30, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
	1.30 in the morning here. "Time for bed" said Zebedee. ] (]) 00:34, 25 October 2010 (UTC)		:Please do not resign, and let the community decide on your continued service. Some of the candidates scare me.--] (]) 13:37, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:Boing! -- ] (]) 08:03, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
	::"Good Morning," said Florence. ] (]) 08:11, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
	::: "Hellooo dears" said Ermintrude. ] (])
	:::: "Far out, man," said Dylan. --] (]) 11:35, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
	== Striking numbered votes properly ==
			*All this talk of resigning is premature and serves no purpose. Elen has earned enough trust over the years that it would be best to reserve judgement until the facts are out. Like most dramah at Misplaced Pages, the reality of the situation is likely quite different than the rhetoric that is flying around. Everyone would do themselves a favor by stepping back and just taking a deep breath for a day or two. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 13:38, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	. I knew I could find out exactly how to do it if I trawled through the source code, as there were some crossed-out votes above, but I was too lazy. ] (]) 11:25, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
			:{{ec}}Per Wehwalt. You know you're doing something right when certain people oppose you. ] (]) 13:41, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	:No worries. After numerous foul ups on my own RfA, I figured out how to do it properly. You need to indent using : after the #, and to strike from after the # not before, as the counter depends on seeing a # at the start of every paragraph in a numbered list. If it sees a different character, it treats it as the end of list. --] (]) 11:33, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Thanks. I'll remember that for the future. ] (]) 13:38, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
			I'm at work at the moment. Give me till this evening to post a statement - the Arb statement (which I only saw an hour or so ago) isn't the full tale. ] (]) 13:46, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	== Travelling ==
			*I'm afraid I must disagree with Dennis in respect of the "trust" Elen has gained. She went on record flatly denying that arbcom held a secret page on me - brusquely dismissing my claims out of hand. A few days later a fellow arbitrator emailed me to confirm the page did indeed exist. Oops. Naturally I won't be voting for Elen at the fortcoming election. <s>However - neither am I calling for her resignation over this issue (and certainly not her admin tools, which would seem unrelated). So as someone who honestly thinks ARBCOM would be far better off without Elen of The Roads, but as someone who thinks Elen should certainly be an admin I have to disagree with the IP's knee-jerk request.</s> <small><span style="border:1px solid #0000ff;padding:1px;">] : ] </span></small> 20:29, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			**Struck latter half. More stuff falls out and SandyGeorgia has made some fine points. I note the motion below. Good. If Elen thinks she should remain an admin is up to her, I guess. If she thinks she should remain a contributor to Misplaced Pages is also up to her as well. <small><span style="border:1px solid #0000ff;padding:1px;">] : ] </span></small> 21:08, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::Pedro, there never was a seekrit Arbcom page. The Arbitrator who contacted you was the only one who had any idea what you were talking about, which wasn't a seekrit Arbcom page at all. Still, why spoil a good story. ] (]) 21:24, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::::As I have an email with a subject line of "The Secret Page - it exists" it rather looks like you're wrong. I'll not go further. Evidently disclosing private e-mails is your expertise not mine. <small><span style="border:1px solid #0000ff;padding:1px;">] : ] </span></small>
			:::::: Not saying the page didn't exist. Just that it was something only one person remembered the existence of, not a page where Arbcom were actively plotting to throw you off the project, which was what you thought at the time. Which was a bit confusing, since no-one was fortunately. But you know that - you've got that email which explains it. ] (]) 21:54, 26 November 2012 (UTC) That sounds snarky, and Pedro really was genuinely worried at the time that he was the subject of some Arbcom campaign to get rid of him, because of this page filed away somewhere that should have been deleted ages before it eventually was.
			*With respect to Pedro (as I'm sure he knows, real respect, not ] respect), I think we'd be better off with you (Elen) remaining on ArbCom for 2013-15. Per Wehwalt above, there are candidates that I find worrying. ''You'' might not be better off, but I'm a selfish bastard so I don't care. WRT to everything else, I agree with a comment you've made in your statement below: the one thing that concerns me is your lack of transparency when ArbCom asked what happened. That was a mistake, but assuming you're human, you get to make those occasionally, and it doesn't rise to the level of negating the good work you do, and the benefit of having you on AC. It's a hallmark of dysfunctional organizations that they react to small mistakes with firings, so I'm not sure what the future holds, but if you choose to continue to run, I'm still supporting your candidacy. --] (]) 22:06, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	I'll be travelling tomorrow, so I won't be able to comment when your RFA passes, so I wish to do so now. Congrats.---''']''' '']'' 06:58, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Thank you so much for everything :) I wouldn't have started without your help and support (and Secret, and Cyn and Davey). --] (]) 13:09, 27 October 2010 (UTC)		::To be honest Floq, the mistake was dragging some poor third party into it at all. I should have just posted on my talkpage to start with and not involved anyone else. But I needed someone to talk to, and then I was trying to avoid shit getting thrown at him. ] (]) 23:06, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::Well, I was trying to imagine what I would have done in your position. It seems pretty... "lonely", I guess I'll say... maybe "insular" is a better word... not to be able to bounce ideas about non-private information off of someone unless they're already on the AC. If this was someone's private information, of course, you can't go sharing that, and having to deal with that kind of thing alone is, I guess, why you Arbs make the big money. But discussing, with a non-arb, the content of the JClemens email I see posted on his talk page doesn't seem wrong; I might have done the same thing if it troubled me. Much of the reaction I've seen so far seems draconian.
	::Are we there? Are we there yet? Are we nearly there?? ] (]) 00:15, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::Nearly there dear. :) --] (]) 00:17, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
			:::I guess I can think of several things that might improve the situation in the future. But since they don't involve putting JClemens' head or your head on pikes, or overthrowing ArbCom, or assigning blame, I don't imagine people are interested in hearing them right now. --] (]) 23:23, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	== Can user delete content? ==
			::::Depends - I might be interested if it involves getting ].--v/r - ]] 23:44, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			::::No heads on spikes? Then I'm not interested either. ] ] 01:50, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
	Hi! Is this kind of user page content deletion allowed: ? ] (]) 13:00, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
			:::Might have been better to discuss it with another arbitrator, or a former arb who is still on the mailing list (unless they got rid of that). Is it established that your confidant/e spilled the email? Anyway I see an error of judgment on Elen's part, but not a fatal one based on what's known so far. Even the CIA director can't keep email private, so the rest of us have no hope. I'm comfortable with Elen staying on arbcom, just be more careful next time. ] (]) 01:10, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	:Yes, users may delete warnings from their talkpages. It is assumed that if they do, they have read them. In Md iet's case he does read them - he's been involved in fixing some of his copyvios, as it was a misunderstanding rather than bad faith. --] (]) 13:07, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
			:::: They got rid of the having old arbs stay subscribed forever thing. It would have been better to discuss it with another Arb. That was poor judgement. ] (]) 02:49, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	==Sourcing BLPs==
	Thanks for sourcing that tagged unsourced BLP. Don't worry, I'm not about to tag a huge load of them--yet. Please see the discussion I started a few minutes ago at ] (). --] 13:59, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
	:No worries. I figured we'd both gone to the list, picked the first one, and edit conflicted. --] (]) 14:04, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
	== yup ==		== FYI ==
			. ] 20:59, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
	. ] <sup>]</sup> 00:06, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Thank you! --] (]) 00:09, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
			== View from this bridge ==
	== Beat-the-crat congrats... ==
	{{adminshirt}}
			Can I first of all confirm that I have at no time ever disclosed any of the sensitive personal information that has been sent to the arbcom mailing list. The mailing list software distributes email sent to the list (it's not webmail). When I cease to be an arbitrator, I will dump that part of my email archive. There is no requirement for ex-arbs to do this, but any UK organisation that permitted ex-employees to retain sensitive personal data after they left would suffer legal consequences, so I believe it is the correct thing to do.
	On your new adminship! ]&nbsp;<sup></font>]]</sup> 00:07, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Gah! There's still time for 150 opposes! Actually, I got 40 minutes extra because of the problems with the template parser. Looie just took the time when he hacked it, not the time Secret transcluded it, so it should really have expired at 00:00 UTC --] (]) 00:11, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
	::There's always one who jumps the gun... I'll be number two and wade in with a T shirt :-) ''']'''<sup>]</sup> 00:16, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::Gee...er...thanks :) --] (]) 00:18, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::{{diff2|391669038|Oh ye of little faith}}! Congratulations! ] 00:20, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::Yeah, and you too. I'd never have done it if you hadn't given me that massive kick up the backside :) --] (]) 00:25, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
			Second, can I confirm that I am not the person sending anonymous emails. If I particularly wanted Coren to see that piece of text, I would just have sent it to him. I don't know who is behind that.
	{{admingrats}} <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 00:46, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
			What JClemens had said about what he would do when he ran for Arbcom was said as part of a rambling conversation between a number of committee members, which got round to Hobbes Leviathan at one point. It moved on to civility, and views from the recent case were rehashed. Following this, JClemens sent the email on his talkpage, indicating that he was going to ask candidates whether a particular statement by Malleus Fatuorum should have resulted in a ban and, if not, why not. As has been alluded to elsewhere, several Arbs indicated that it was not appropriate to send it to the list, it belonged off list.
	:Rlevse, I think we need to talk Mr Zman into writing an RFA closing script so you don't keep getting beat to the candidate's talk page by the riff raff :) --] (]) 00:57, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
			What I did do is discuss it with a third party, in a private chat. I was worried that Malleus would react to the question with one of his anglo saxon epithets, and another request for a ban would ensue. People were asking me if I would stand again, I did not want to get involved in this, but I did not know what to do for the best. Yes, I was angry and used some unparliamentary language. And yes, I did reproduce the words as part of the discussion. To say 'at the upcoming election I am going to stand on this platform and ask this question'- it simply did not seem to me to be something that had been said under the seal of the confessional (an absolute guarantee of non-disclosure).
	Congratulations!!!! --<font color='#66dd44'>]]</font> 00:47, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
	# Congrats ] <sup>]</sup> 00:53, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
			Eventually I concluded that I was over-reacting, and the community would reach it's own verdict, so I just put the note you can see higher up this talkpage.
	:Congrats Elen of the Roads!!!! Well deserved!!! Best, Rob <small>] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></small> 03:21, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Congrats, Elen! ] (]) 01:48, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
			The next thing I knew, people were apparently getting anonymous emails with the text on JClemens talkpage. Where I do consider I made a substantial error of judgement is not at that point reporting back to Arbcom immediately everything I had said. This was because the person I had confided in assured me they were not sending random emails (and I have no reason to think they were) and I did not want them to be subjected to the hassle they were eventually subjected to.
	:::Congrats Elen! Good luck with the tools and ] :) although I'm sure you won't! ;) Regards, —<span style="font-family:Tahoma;">''']</span> • <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;font-variant:small-caps;">] • 5:24pm •'''</span> 06:24, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
			So that's what happened.
	== RfA thankspam - cupcakes ==
			I understand the view of those who say that everything ever said on that list must be under the seal of the confessional. My view is that ultimately a closed list creates an 'us and them' mindset because you can't discuss things with anyone else, and there's no requirement for propriety. I've seen it on a lot of forums, and would prefer to see much better confidentiality for personal data, and less exclusivity in discussion. That said, this was not an attempt to dismantle the list.
	]Thank you to everyone who supported my RfA. I couldn't have done it without you guys. Help yourselves to a cupcake. --] (]) 00:46, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
	:*'''OMNOMNOM''' - Yummy! Congratulations :) - ] <small>was here!</small> ] 01:02, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Well done - I'm glad my oppose #1 didn't turn out to look silly.--] (]) 01:03, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
	*Congratulations, I'm sure you will make a fine admin. Your cabal leader will be by later to give you keys to the admins lounge and show you the secret handshake. ] (]) 01:45, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
	*Delicious. *burp* --] (]) 02:11, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
	*Those are too pretty to eat. Congrats! <font face="Lucida Calligraphy">] <sup>]</sup></font> 03:05, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
	]*Many congrats, and welcome to the cabal. --] (]) 03:34, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
	*Wow, 15th place in the ] - nice :-) -- ] (]) 08:20, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
	*Use it well! Still fell sorry for ] though. ]</em> <em style="font-family:Matisse ITC;color:red">]</em> <sup>]</sup> 08:25, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Yeah, he would have had a good use for the thing. ] (]) 19:54, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
	<div style="border-style:solid; border-color:blue; background-color:AliceBlue; border-width:1px; text-align:left; padding:8px;" class="plainlinks">]
			I also understand the view of those who don't think it was the sin that cannot be forgiven, but still think it was a huge error of judgement and I'm a complete incompetent.
	Special Cases has given you a ]! Cookies promote ] and hopefully this one has made your day better. You can Spread the "WikiLove" by giving someone else a cookie, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. <br />
			I also understand the view of those who don't think there is a huge problem, but wouldn't trust me
	To spread the goodness of cookies, you can add {{tls|Cookie}} to someone's talk page with a friendly message, or eat this cookie on the giver's talk page with {{tls|munch}}!
			I refute wild speculation about how I'm going to go mad and publish loads of personal data.
	{{clear}}
			I'll accept whatever happens next. ] (]) 21:16, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			:Could you kindly clarify what you mean by "What I did do is discuss it with a third party, in a private chat.", did this involve the release of email or snippets of emails, including the email Jclemens sent and that was later received by Coren and NW? <i><b>] <sup><small>]</small></sup></b></i> 21:23, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			:Also got a quick question: You shared the content of JClemens' mail in private with someone, and then right after that someone else sent the content of that mail around anonymously to various user, but that someone else was neither you nor the person you shared the content of the mail with? --]|] 21:29, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			::Hi Snowolf, Conti. Going to answer you both. Sorry, I thought I made it clear it included I think probably all of what's on JC's talkpage, plus the wording of the question he said he was going to ask. Incidentally, under the 'seal of the confessional' rules, just discussing it is as bad an offence as repeating what was actually said. I now know that the person who emailed NW was the person I discussed it with - I didn't discover this until recently. He used his own name and must have anticipated that NW would just refer it back to the committee, which makes me even more convinced he's not behind the anonymous email to Coren. ] (]) 21:43, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			:I think that's an honest comment, Elen, although it is vague as Snowolf has pointed out. I'm one of the folks who thinks you made a bad judgement call and you should step down from Arbcom. That said, Elen, I've always had immense respect for you and I still hold you in a high regard. I'm disappointed is all. Good luck.--v/r - ]] 21:35, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			::Thanks. I appreciate that. See note above re vagueness ] (]) 21:43, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			::I take the completely opposite view, and wish that there were more disclosures about the unsavoury goings on in these secret email lists. Bollocks to the "rules", we need a damn sight more honesty and integrity. But it may be of course that Elen and I have a shared Anglo-Saxon legacy, just that she tones hers down a notch or two. (In the interests of full disclosure it's more likely that my ancestors were Normans, but hey, that was a long time ago now, let's forgive and forget.) ] ] 21:46, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			::: Pretty certain my English ancestors were of saxon stock, but we'll let bygones be bygones. It is the problem with any closed list, forum (Delphi moderator forums were often terrible for it) or chat room. If noodling, laundry lists and personal attacks are all under the same seal of the confessional, nothing gets challenged, and it can create a hothouse atmosphere. ] (]) 22:04, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			::::To be clear, I don't think the leak was a bad judgement call. Whistle-blowers are necessary to the health of any society. I think not taking ownership early was a bad judgement call. The rest of my comment still applies.--v/r - ]] 22:06, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::::Anyone who sees something bad happening has a duty to speak out, so I'm wondering why the other sitting arbitrators just sat on their hands rather than exposing Jclemens' bully-boy tactics. ] ] 22:14, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			::::::--v/r - ]] 22:23, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::::::It seems that we do, except for the small matter of Elen stepping down from ArbCom. I hope that she's re-elected with a resounding majority for taking an ethical stand against Jclemens, someone who should never have been elected to ArbCom in the first place. ] ] 22:31, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
			::::::::With respect to Elen, I am not sure how these particular actions can be viewed as ethical. She secretly intimated confidential matters to a group of special friends and then lied to the Committee for weeks. While I am sure her actions in other cases are quite ethical, this situation was handled in one of the worst ways possible. ''']''' 00:21, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			::::::::: What is confidential about an election statement? Just curious. What makes the statemet "at the elections I am going to publically do this" confidential? ] (]) 00:26, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::::::::: First, I should say that you are handling a difficult situation with poise, and I thank you for responding kindly despite the fact that I was criticizing an action of yours. Now since you ask, I understand the view that all material should be public except that which directly involves personally-identifiable data or the like. However, that is not the policy at this time. You surely are more aware than anyone that arbitrators have an expectation of privacy for all list communication. If you wanted to change that, it doesn't seem quite right to just go ahead - that creates a sense of betrayal. Rather, you might have posted a motion to end secret mailing lists. The fact that you disclosed an email that the writer expected to be confidential seems unethical. It has been the case for years that the permission of the sender has been needed to post emails. Maybe that should change - but just suddenly going ahead with disclosure seems a bit off. But others may not agree. ''']''' 00:34, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::::::::: In short: If you had told the other arbitrators when you were elected that you intended to disclose their emails, that would have been one thing. But you evidently let them think their communications were private, and then went ahead and disclosed them. That seems a bit underhanded somehow. ''']''' 00:37, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			::::::::::: Point taken, and a very valid one if I may say. I don't believe JC was aware of my views, although the committee remaining from the previous year would have been aware of previously expressed opinions, as it had come up in discussion before. ] (]) 01:29, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			:I'm disappointed that you were less than forthright with your fellow committee members in promptly revealing exactly to what information had been released; I fear this may make things more difficult for your future work on the Committee. At the end of the day, what is most important to me is the quality of decisions from the Committee, not occasional lapses of judgement from its individual members. It's fairly obvious to me that we are better off with you on the committee than off of it, so I will be voting for you shortly. <small>]</small> 00:30, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			::Yes, foolish attempt to deflect the committee's attention from the person I had discussed it with (so they wouldn't blame him for the anonymous malarkey), not realising that he had in consternation bundled everything up and in effect sent it back to the committee. The mistake was dragging a third party into it at all. ] (]) 01:34, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::I have a rather short attention span, and consequently find discussions such as this one difficult to follow without falling asleep. Who is this mysterious third party? ] ] 03:39, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			Confiding in one trusted person, on an issue that is apparently going public anyway, that involves no private data, is something I can't condemn you for. Trying to get my head around this.
			<s>If your confidante didn't share the full text of Jclemens's now-public post with anyone, and neither your confidante nor you sent the anonymous Gmails, then someone else with access to the arbcom list did. That was either another arb who coincidentally decided to widely publicise Jclemens's intentions - which is possible but improbable - or more likely another arb who learned that you had disclosed the email to a confidante and decided to make a scandal out of it.</s>
			Are you aware of this being discussed anywhere other than here and
			*]
			*]
			*]
			*]?
			] (]) 04:21, 27 November 2012 (UTC) <small>Strike my unhelpful speculation. 06:46, 28 November 2012 (UTC) </small>
			:Isn't this quite consistent with last year's leaking scandal? Who's been on the committee long enough to be implicated in both leaks? ] ] 04:25, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			::No. The only common thread so far is that both involve disclosure of arbcom l posts. <s>This case is targetted at EotR with a very specific and immediate petty political purpose, the former was some kind of grand statement about/assault on arbcom itself.</s> --] (]) 04:32, 27 November 2012 (UTC) <small>Strike my unhelpful speculation. 06:46, 28 November 2012 (UTC) </small>
			:::The last leaks were targeted at me, no "grand statement" that I could see. And this current leak also centres on me. Coincidence? ] ] 04:54, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			::::Quite likely. <s>I think the target of the anonymous Gmails was Elen not you.</s> --] (]) 05:42, 27 November 2012 (UTC) <small>Strike my unhelpful speculation. 06:46, 28 November 2012 (UTC) </small>
			I would like to ask Elen a question. Roger Davies has indicated that there is a sliding greyscale in email communications with arbcom and between arbitrators. That evidently does not apply to sensitive personal data. There is no doubt in my mind that Elen can be completely trusted with that kind of sensitive and confidential data. The matters under discussion here, however, did not involve personal data, but an inappropriate use of arbcom-l as part of an election campaign. I have assumed that prior to the email addressed to Risker published on his talk page, Jclemens had sent a previous shorter email, also concerning ACE2012 and Malleus Fatuorum, to arbcom-l. If so, without mentioning names, had any arbitrators already objected to that previous email as being off-topic or inappropriate for the list ''before'' Jclemens sent the second email? ] (]) 04:42, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			*I think Elen had a tough choice here - whether to stick to the letter of the rules and abide by the non-publication of a communication that she thought unethical, or to follow a moral course of action in exposing what looks to me like a malicious and bullying misuse of secret ArbCom communications channels and so putting herself at risk. In the event, it looks to me like she went for morality, and tried sounding out a third party - and that led to the whole thing coming out. While I could not recommend the routine publication of private ArbCom communications (because some really do need to be kept confidential), I support Elen's outing of this latest example of Jclemens' arrogant bully-boy tactics - and Mathsci makes a good point that this was not the kind of confidential information that ArbCom often holds about third parties and which really must be kept secret. I sincerely hope Elen's action does not significantly damage her support in the election, and I can only reiterate my own support. I have already cast my Support vote for Elen and my Oppose vote against Jclemens - and I do confess that in each case I clicked the button harder than I would otherwise have done. -- ] (]) 16:15, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			:*Yes, I agree with Boing! And, yes, the votes are in. I trust you, I always have, and I see no reason to change. In fact, the morality of this tale adds to my sense of trust. But there is someone within ArbCom who is really, really playing politics here. I know who I think it is but in any event the field narrows with each election. Keep well, and keep doing what you do. - ] (]) 00:33, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			::*Elen, I know we have had our troubles and I was both surprised and sorry to see this chain of events. I think we both know I know all too well how things can spiral downhill from one bad decision. I just wanted to let you know that I think that you are handling it very well and I hope that this doesn't affect your participation in the project. As others I agree that Arbcom had to do something (and I posted a brief comment about that at the Arbcom page) based on the seriousness of the events and I think they acted pretty fairly, even though it may not seem like it. I doubt it will affect your election so in a month you'll have access to all the tools again and things will be back to normal. ] (]) 03:53, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			== A cup of coffee for you! ==
			{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
			|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ]
			|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Thought you could use one of these!! ♦ ] 19:00, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			|}
			Thanks. Certainly could. --] (]) 23:43, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			== A kitten for you! ==
			]
			Just noticed all the crap your getting, maybe a cute kitten will cheer you up, if not you can always eat it. You got my vote BTW, I have always been of the opinion you are one of the better admins around here. Cheers.
			] (]) 19:12, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
			<br style="clear: both;"/>
			Yum, kitten. Thanks. ] (]) 23:44, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			== Disclosure about leak ==
			Would you be willing or able to post the responses you gave to the Arbs on November 13th and November 25th respectively regarding the leak? I presume these are the dates where you acknowledged revealing details from the mailing list and I think it would be helpful to know what you specifically told the other Arbs regarding your communications with non-Arbs.--] (]) 00:48, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			: I would be interested in seeing that as well. In the meantime, I have posted my thoughts on the matter at ]. --]]] 18:20, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			== ''The Signpost'': 26 November 2012 ==
			<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
			{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2012-11-26}}
			</div><!--Volume 8, Issue 48-->
			<div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">
			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 10:26, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
	</div>		</div>
			<!-- EdwardsBot 0405
	{|cellpadding="10" cellspacing="0" style="border:1px solid black; background-color:#e6e9ff; margin-bottom:.5em" width=100%
	|style="text-align:center;"| '''Congratulations'''. Here are what pass for words of wisdom from the puppy:
			# RECIPIENTS (CATEGORY) -->
			==A personal view==
			Elen: I wrote you a note above suggesting that you run again for arbitrator, and I have no regret now for having done so. When this recent brouhaha arose, I considered whether it would be best to vote for you or not in the current election, not because I have any doubt whatsoever about your discretion &ndash; which I do not &ndash; but simply because I wondered if your re-election might create a new ArbCom that was unable to be effective, given the actions taken by other arbs. In the end, I decided that it was best for the community that you be on the Committee, and that Jclemens not be, and I voted that way. We will see if other Wikipedians see things the way I have or not, but regardless of the outcome of the election, please know that at least one Wikipedian appreciates that you placed the good of the community above all else, and were willing to put yourself on the line. Best of luck to you, in the election and in all else. 10:31, 28 November 2012 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
			:I wholeheartedly endorse that sentiment. -- ] (]) 11:05, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			:Thanks to you both, whatever happens. At the end of the day, it's only dispute resolution (and the pay is lousy) :) --] (]) 23:45, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			== Sorry for hiatus ==
			Apologies for absence - had the most humongous migraine and been unable to look at a computer screen for two days.
			To answer a few points:-
			@Anthonycole - the party I talked to bundled up what I said and passed it to Nuclear Warfare, who promptly forwarded it to Sir Fozzie, who had it by the 13th and was asking about it. According to those who have seen it, what was sent to Coren was slightly different, and I have no idea who sent it. I would not like to speculate that it was another arbitrator, but the request to Coren to verify it by returning it to Arbcom suggests that it was not intended as a tip of but for other reasons.
			@Mathsci - Risker and a couple of others had already attempted to shut the discussion down at an earlier stage, as it was in their opinion running completely off the rails. However, another member of the committee argued that there was no precedent for shutting down a discussion as Arbitrators could basically post however they felt led. One problem with this setup, where everything is as sacred as everything else, is that Arbitrators are free to post personal attacks or outrageous statements and there really is not a lot one can do about it.
			@TDA and Elonka - it would make about a dozen emails but I will totally put my hands up and say that on the 13th I named the person I had spoken to. I had asked the person I had spoken to, and they said they had not sent any text to anyone, so I tried to protect them by saying (several times) that they did not have any verbatim text, but they did have all the details. This was plumb stupid, and I fully accept all condemnation for being plumb stupid.
			I didn't send anything to Arbcom on the 25th. I sent the following message to SilkTork, saying I was going to put it on my talkpage when I got back home (I had no access to a pc at that point), and he forwarded it to Arbcom. I gather Arbcom got the details of what I had discussed with a third party by subjecting him to the "third degree" at some point prior to this.
			''As I referred to publically above, a couple of weeks ago another member of the committee posted what appeared to me to be an election manifesto to the main arbcom mailing list. As you can see above I disagreed with what he said In fact, I was bloody angry. I viewed it as low politics and was particularly concerned that it would have a very bad impact on a third party who hadn't signed up to be part of it. As such, mentioned it to a couple of people and discussed it in more detail with a friend (ranted at him about it would be nearer to mark, to be honest. I wouldn't score any civility points).''
			''The situation is being compounded because someone else (I have honestly no idea who) is apparently sending the text of what I referred to as the election manifesto to some of the candidates using throwaway email accounts. No idea what the point of that is, it seems very childish to me. If I'd intended to advertise it, I'd have posted it on my talkpage. All it said (in several paragraphs - it was a political speech) is that he was disappointed that the current committee did not back his stance on civility, he wants to see a future Arbcom that backs his concept of civility, he intends to make that his platform, and he feels very strongly that the community supports him on this.''
			''] says that Arbitrators should <u>preserve in appropriate confidence the contents of private correspondence sent to the Committee and the Committee's internal discussions and deliberations</u> and <u>the Committee treats as private all communications sent to it, or sent by a Committee member in the performance of their duties.</u> However, ] states that <u>Arbitrators usually seek to treat your communications, including emails, as private when possible. We however cannot guarantee against public disclosure for a number of reasons, including potential security limitations. Accordingly, you should not disclose sensitive personal information in your communications with us. Once received, your communications may be shared with committee members and, in some limited cases, with third parties to assist in resolving issues or other purposes. Your communications may be kept for an undetermined period of time for archival or other reasons.</u> So if you are an individual, you don't actually have a guarantee of privacy.''
			''It is the view of some members of the Committee that everything an Arbitrator ever sends to that email address - bad jokes, gossip, laundry lists - is under the seal of the confessional and can never be repeated or referred to elsewhere. I do accept that some people will feel quite strongly that what is said in confidence should remain in confidence. Some will feel that what I did (talking it over with someone) was entirely beyond the pale and means I can never be trusted again. Personally, I think that far stricter confidentiality than that email list is required where personal data is being handled, but by and large the deliberations of the committee should be in public unless there is a privacy issue. Where this leaves election manifestos, bad jokes, gossip and laundry lists is anyone's guess.''
			As to why I haven't resigned. Well, some of what I said above is actually important. Arbcom have already acknowledged that their mailing list system is not suitable for sensitive personal information, but continue to use it for that purpose. It sends your personal information to third party email inboxes, over which it has no control. Data can be kept forever by persons who no longer have any affiliation with the organization. There isn't even a requirement to delete your email archive when your term of office ends. There's a reason English local councillors all have official email accounts - so the Council can make sure the archive gets deleted when the councillor's term of office ends.
			And did you know that if Arbcom sends you an email, you can't share it with anyone. That's part of what "Sent by a committee member in the performance of their duties" means, and there have been fireworks repeatedly when someone has posted an email that an Arbitrator sent to them.
			And a closed list where members can say what they like without fear of consequence because nobody can say anything elsewhere is ultimately corrosive. There is no reason to extend protection to every petty comment, every off the wall statement, every personal attack. Because that's what is being protected. Not sensitive personal data. Not state secrets. For goodness sake, this isn't ], it's dispute resolution. Why do we have this institution in the first place, this sooper seekrit list that people are terrified of. Let's get the personal information somewhere other than fired into random mailboxes, and get the discussion out in the open. ] (]) 23:42, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
			:"get the discussion out in the open" should have been done a long time ago. There's no need for any secrecy in the proceedings of the Committee in the most situations. But what's bothering me, Elen, is that you came up with this "fresh" idea only now, when you yourself are getting scrutinized for leaking some emails.] (]) 02:32, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
			::It has come up several times before - the committee at one point during the past two years even agreed to set up an open access mailing list, but never did because it was technically impossible with the kit available. At the very start of my tenure I had a blazing row with Risker over this business of emails sent by the committee to a third party being confidential (ie the third party was forbidden from publishing them). Came up in the Rodhullandemu case - the email in question ended up on wiki anyway. PDs always used to be drafted on the arbwiki without any preliminary workshopping - after Monty Hall, I said I'd never do that again. ] (]) 02:46, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
			:Thank you for this bit of disclosure.--] (]) 16:25, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
			== Pony! ==
			{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
			|rowspan="2" | ]
			|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''Pony!'''
	|-		|-
			|Hugs! For your patience and professionalism with the current situation, exhibiting grace under fire, you have received a ]! Ponies are cute, intelligent, friendly (most of the time, though with notable exceptions), promote good will, encourage patience, and enjoy carrots. Treat your pony with respect and he will be your faithful friend! ]<sup>]</sup> 01:14, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	|style="text-align:left;"|
	# Remember you will always protect the ].
	# Remember you must always follow the ], except for when you ] them. You will always pick the wrong one to do. (See #5)
	# Remember to ] and not ]. Remember that when you are applying these principles most diligently, you are probably dealing with a ].
	# Use the ] ability sparingly. Enjoy the insults you receive when you do block.
	# Remember when you make these errors, someone will be more than happy to point them out to you in ] and ].
	# and finally, Remember to contact me if you ever need assistance, and I will do what I am able.
	:: ]<sup>]</sup>
	|-
	|style="text-align:center;"|<small>DISCLAIMER: This humor does not reflect the official humor of Misplaced Pages, the Wikimedia Foundation, or Jimbo Wales. All rights released under GFDL.
	|}		|}
			Awww. I always wanted a pony. No danger of speeding on a pony:) --] (]) 01:08, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	:Has this all been a terrible mistake?? Naughty, naughty admin... ] (]) 15:55, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
	::LOL. And I was even offering to write an article for him... ] (]) 19:55, 28 October 2010 (UTC)		:I dunno, those ] can go pretty fast! ]<sup>]</sup> 01:16, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
			== Dispute resolution volunteer survey ==
	I seem to be late to the desert table, but heartfelt congratulations from me too! --] (]) 20:06, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
			{| style="background-color: #CCFFFF; border: 4px solid #3399cc; width:100%" cellpadding="5"
			| ]
			<big>'''Dispute Resolution – ''Volunteer Survey Invite'''''</big>
			----
			Hello {{BASEPAGENAME}}. To follow up on ], I am conducting a second survey to learn more about dispute resolution volunteers - their motivations for resolving disputes, the experiences they've had, and their ideas for the future. I would appreciate your thoughts. I hope that with the results of this survey, we will learn how to increase the amount of active, engaged volunteers, and further improve dispute resolution processes. The survey takes around five to ten minutes, and the information you provide will not be shared with third parties other than to assist in analyzing the results of the survey. No personally identifiable information will be released.
			'''Please click to participate.'''<br>
			Many thanks in advance for your comments and thoughts.
			----
			<small>You are receiving this invitation because you have either listed yourself as a volunteer at a dispute resolution forum, or are a member of a dispute resolution committee. For more information, please see the page that describes my fellowship work ]. ] (]) 02:46, 29 November 2012 (UTC)</small>
			|}
			== Survivor award ==
	{| style="border: 3px solid #4A98F2; background-color: #A9D2FF;padding:0.5em"
	|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | ]
			{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
	|rowspan="2" |
			|rowspan="3" valign="middle" | ]
	|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''Sunshine!'''
			|rowspan="3" |
			|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;text-align: center" | '''The Survivor Award'''
			|-
			|style="text-align: center;"|Escaping ] ]
	|-		|-
			|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | <small>]</small> 16:48, 29 November 2012 (UTC)}
	|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid #4A98F2;" | Hello Elen of the Roads! ~<span style="border:2px solid blue;background:beige;font-family:Mistral">''']]]'''</span> has given you a bit of ] to brighten your day! Sunshine promotes ] and hopefully it has made your day better. Spread the sunshine by adding <tt>{{<nowiki>subst:</nowiki>]}}</tt> to someone else's talk page, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. In addition, you can spread the sunshine to anyone who visits your userpage and/or talk page by adding {{tlu|User:Meaghan/Sunshine icon}}. Happy editing! ~<span style="border:2px solid blue;background:beige;font-family:Mistral">''']]]'''</span> 20:08, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
	|}		|}
	Congratulations! ~<span style="border:2px solid blue;background:beige;font-family:Mistral">''']]]'''</span> 20:08, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
			I have to admit that at first glance that thing looked like some particularly old-fashioned kind of toilet. At least it isn't the ]. --] (]) 22:17, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	:Congrats. <span class="plainlinks">—'''<font color="#9370DB">]</font> <small><font color="#4169E1">(]•]•]•)</font></small>'''</span> 04:25, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
			== Arbitration motion ==
	:Congratulations on your RfA! <span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #F4A460"><font color="#FFFF00"><B>]</B></font><font color="#FF33FF"><B>]</B></font></span> 18:15, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
			The arbitration motion regarding you has been as not passing. For the Arbitration Committee --] (]) 17:03, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	== User:Ronz on AN/I ==
			== Moral support ==
	Elen, thank you for your early comments to this discussion. Do you mind revisiting it? ] is lobbying for the closure and archiving of the discussion because no more admins are commenting. He appears to also not have realized that you provided some early admin input on this issue. See here - ]. Thanks.] (]) 13:29, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
			Hi Elen.
	== Busy first day... ==
			It looks to me like somebody used a private list inappropriately (which bothered you), you discussed it with a friend (which is what friends are for), your friend spread it around without your intent or consent (aargh!), and your hobby suddenly became a lot less fun (at least for the present).
			If that's what happened, you absolutely have my sympathy and moral support. I also commend your cool-headedness thus far in response to it! --]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;<sup>]</sup>✌ 21:52, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
			:That's about it, although in fairness to the other guy I don't think he intended anything like the drama it caused. A lesson all round, mostly for me. --] (]) 22:23, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
	|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | {{#if: {{ifequal|{{{2}}}|alt}}|]|]}}
			::Sadly it's far too easy on WP to cause drama with no intention of doing so ;-)... the hiccups happen when you don't keep that in mind. --]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;<sup>]</sup>✌ 22:37, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::Typical ArbCom drama. I don't think ArbCom should have anything private. You have my support as well. ~~]]~~ → <small><span class="nowrap">]</span></small> 02:08, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
			== If Re-elected... ==
			Hi Elen, I'm still trying to decide whether to support you in the ArbCom election, and wonder if I might ask a couple of questions...
			# If you are re-elected, what action(s) do you plan to take on the issue of inappropriate use of the mailing list by arbitrators?
			# What changes will you advocate for arbitration policy relating to mailing list misuse, confidentiality, and disclosure?
			# In the (admittedly unlikely) event that both you and JClemens are re-elected, how will you go about working together?
			# Suppose another situation occurred in which an arbitrator posted inappropriately to the list on a topic where the community arguably has a right to know. I refer to a post where disclosure would not violate the privacy of any editor and where the comments made are inconsistent with an arbitrator carrying out her or his duties. How would you handle this situation?
			# Relating to your recent actions, I am much more disturbed by your misleading your colleagues when asked about the leak than I am about seeking the counsel of a friend. Voting for an arbitrator involves trusting in his or her judgment and whilst I accept that you would not have disclosed personal confidential information, I am concerned that you were unwilling to be fully open about your actions. Please explain to me why I should vote in support of you continuing to serve on ArbCom.
			Thanks for taking the time to respond. ] (]) 02:35, 30 November 2012 (UTC) <small>I am the editor who posted the questions above; I have removed the IP address from which they were posted. ] (]) 07:26, 30 November 2012 (UTC)</small>
			:What's much more concerning to me is that you choose to post from an IP address rather than from your registered account. It's difficult to find the right word to describe that sort of behaviour, but cowardice comes close. ] ] 03:39, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
			::<s>Well, if '''you''' can't find the right word, MF, then I hesitate to try, but maybe '''' has the right kind of ring to it? <span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#000;">]&thinsp;]</span> 03:51, 30 November 2012 (UTC)</s> I apologise for my bad faith assumption. I offer no excuse for it. <span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#000;">]&thinsp;]</span> 07:35, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::I have many words to describe this sort of stupidity, but most of those who object to the honesty and integrity that Elen has displayed wouldn't understand them. If I'd confided in someone I'd believed to be a friend who subsequently decided to stitch me up I'd be more than a little bit peeved. Not that I have any friends of course, so my reply is entirely hypothetical. ] ] 04:34, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
			::::It would be better if the contributor had signed in, I agree. Perhaps he or she forgot? It has happened to me. In any event, as someone who wholeheartedly supports Elen's bid for reelection, I think the questions are fair ones. ] (]) 05:35, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::::Thanks, Rivertorch. I appreciate your comments. For the record, I have not logged in to Misplaced Pages for quite a while, I left at a time I was grieving when I couldn't cope with everything that was upsetting me - which included some of the actions of ArbCom. I have watched Misplaced Pages from time to time since then, made a few IP edits, and wondered if I would come back and / or whether I'd vote in the ArbCom election. Malleus, I have been angered at your mistreatment by ArbCom and their collective failure to respond appropriately to Jclemens' "not a Wikipedian" behaviour was one of the low points in ArbCom history. Elen's response to Jclemens has actually made my voting (including for her) substantially more likely, and I wanted to ask some questions to help make my decision, so I posted them; I did not stop to consider whether to log in. You are all correct that I should have logged in, which I have now done to claim my questions. It was disrespectful to ask any candidate a question without logging in, and I apologise to Elen for that - Elen, I hope you will accept that my action in posting questions from an IP address was thoughtless rather than deliberately deceptive. Malleus and Begoon, I am not a coward nor am I gutless, I have no problem admitting the questions are mine, I hope you will accept that I was at worst foolish. I agree with Malleus that I would be "more than a little bit peeved" with my friend if I were Elen - which I suppose raises questions about her judgment - but I feel it is not appropriate for me to ask about that; Elen's mistake in this regard was a human one, as she has recognised, and the idea of an ArbCom whose members believe themselves incapable of human error is frightening. ArbCom is already far too reluctant to admit to error, and that is one of its flaws. If this whole incident leads to a greater openness and to a willingness to admit to error then something valuable will have been gained. ] (]) 07:26, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
			:::::: Hello EdChem. I fear you caught a whiplash here because both Malleus and myself (and several other editors) have been plagued by trolling in times of trouble from what I can really only describe as anonymous cowards. I hope that time has helped to heal your real life grief, and you can return to this project and find pleasure in editing. I have answered your questions below, to the best of my ability.
			''If you are re-elected, what action(s) do you plan to take on the issue of inappropriate use of the mailing list by arbitrators?''
			:: Shut the damn mailing list down as soon as ever it's possible. It is totally unsuitable as a medium for holding sensitive personal information, as was made clear two years ago when sensitive personal information ended up on Misplaced Pages Review. There are comments on some technical work done in this area over at ] Having got the truly confidential into a safer place, the list can carry the other traffic (voting calls, availability etc) without having the burden that the need to preserve everything as confidential carries.
			''What changes will you advocate for arbitration policy relating to mailing list misuse, confidentiality, and disclosure?''
			* Firstly, require all outgoing Arbitrators to clear their email archives of any list traffic once unsubscribed from the lists (there are 3) because they no longer have a reason to possess it. One could request that ex-Arbs from past times do likewise if they have not already done so. No means of enforcing it of course, because all the emails go to private inboxes, but one can at least ask.
			* Secondly, as said above, separate out the sensitive information. This may need some agreed definitions - existing legal definitions such as the UK data protection act start from the position that the information allows you to identify the person, the same criterion as used in the WMF Privacy statement. However, I would rather think that the community would want a definition starting with information that would identify the editor on Misplaced Pages, given the amount of traffic from editors who do not wish to be identified with the information they want to provide us with.
			* Thirdly, make clear what you can expect to happen to your information. The current policy (]) says that everything is confidential and treated as 'appropriate'. However, at ] it tells editors that the committee might share your information with whoever it sees fit with or without informing you, and not to send it confidential information anyway, as confidentiality cannot be guaranteed. Not helpful
			* Rather, any policy should make clear that for example, personally identifying data is covered by the , and a breach of this policy involving any WMF system (eg checkuser tool or this new crm if it comes off) will result in immediate loss of access to any WMF system containing p.i.d. The community will probably want information which identifies you as an editor, and which the committee has decided to accept as part of a private hearing, to be kept confidential with similar protections. On the other hand, allegations that the committee decides should not be dealt with by private hearing should be deleted off the system, not kept forever to haunt an editor who is completely unaware that ], with whom she was in a content dispute, wrote to Arbcom saying that she was secretly employed by the FromVenus organisation to edit with multiple sock accounts. This is a basic privacy principle (or should be) - if Arbcom has told the reporting user to go file an SPI and they don't, it should delete it's record within a few months, not keep unsubstantiated allegations hanging around like the proverbial fart in a phonebox.
			*As to correspondence between committee members - assuming that confidential information about other people has been got into a safer environment, any mailing list may still contain confidential information about it's members included in conversation (birthdays, family details, phone number, new job or whatever). In fact, the safest thing might be to say the mailing list is only for that kind of stuff. Discussing cases should be in a separate location, arguing with each other or making the kind of statements that led to this in the first place should be onwiki or by personal email.
			* At the same time, most of the discussion on cases and motions should not have an expectation of privacy at all. Even if not held onwiki (the genuine difficulty here is that everyone and their dog chimes in and swamps the discussion), there should be an expectation that it can be disclosed upon request.
			''In the (admittedly unlikely) event that both you and JClemens are re-elected, how will you go about working together?''
			:We would just have to, in the sure and certain knowledge that we completely disagree on several things. The committee can work with differing opinions - although part of the scope of discussion on cases and motions is to find a format which will achieve majority support, it is perfectly clear that it makes its decisions by majority vote, not consensus. I think it would be a mistake to expect it to be like a government with a ].
			''Suppose another situation occurred in which an arbitrator posted inappropriately to the list on a topic where the community arguably has a right to know. I refer to a post where disclosure would not violate the privacy of any editor and where the comments made are inconsistent with an arbitrator carrying out her or his duties. How would you handle this situation?''
			: I'll be honest, right now I'd probably just shut up about it :) In the future, there should not be a reason to put that kind of post on a list (or on a wiki, which seems to be one solution being discussed as I mentioned above) where most of the traffic consists of or is discussing personal information that should be treated as confidential. If a person did so, and another member of the committee was disturbed by it, they should be free to raise it with the person by personal email or onwiki without anyone yelling 'Leak!' or simply to ask for disclosure (see note above about discussion on cases and motions) It's what is in the information that makes it confidential, not where it was posted.
			''Relating to your recent actions, I am much more disturbed by your misleading your colleagues when asked about the leak than I am about seeking the counsel of a friend. Voting for an arbitrator involves trusting in his or her judgment and whilst I accept that you would not have disclosed personal confidential information, I am concerned that you were unwilling to be fully open about your actions. Please explain to me why I should vote in support of you continuing to serve on ArbCom.''
			:Indeed, while I have said that I was trying to protect my confidante (who had assured me he had not sent the text of anything to anyone - and who I still think was only trying to do what he thought was best), I would anticipate a lot of voters deciding that my judgement is so completely shot to shit that I'm not fit to be an Arb. All I can say is it was the same motivation that has led many to criticise me for being way too lenient and over emotional. There are people behind these usernames, and a lot of the time they are trying to do what they think is best, it just doesn't work out. Arbcom is not the government. It's not there to make policy, rule on content, or 'guide the project' (which is what I do believe is what JClemens wanted to see - an Arbcom that would guide the project on civility). It is just there as the last stage of dispute resolution, to sort out those wrangles that have spilled over into intractable bad behaviour, deal with the odd private matter (mostly alleged paedophiles and stalkers) and to manage parts of the tool permission process on behalf of the WMF. I think I've done that fairly, and fairly well, and would do it fairly well again. There's a balance in many cases between protecting the editing community, who just want a quiet environment and would often favour a 'block the lot of 'em' policy, and being fair to editors who are not always the mendacious, pov pushing trolls the other side (who are always incivil, lying edit warriors) make them out to be.
			:In the end, it's up to the voter's conscience, opinion, or whatever one chooses to call it. There are a number of good candidates who would do a good job. I'd say pick the ones who take the job seriously as a means of helping good editors to keep editing. ] (]) 13:40, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
			Elen, I'd like to thank you for your thoughtful and informative responses. I would like to ask one follow up, if I may. In response to my first question, you advocate closing down the present mailing list as it is unsuited to handling genuinely confidential information - which I think is an excellent idea, but it wasn't the intent of my question. So, suppose the truly confidential material is moved to a secure storage medium. I presume there would still need to be some off-wiki communication channel for arbitrators. How would you like policy to handle the issue of inappropriate use of that channel by arbitrators? ] (]) 05:01, 1 December 2012 (UTC) PS: If you like, I'd be willing to copy and paste my questions and your answers over to your candidate questions page.
			:Ah right. I would expect at that point that it wouldn't matter so much what they posted, because the expectation would be that anything that isn't personally identifying (schedule, job or family details etc) could be referred to elsewhere or requested for disclosure. Misuse is a problem where someone cannnot be called to any account because of list confidentiality. If something said on the list can be referred to elewhere, it both removes the kind of issue that came up here, and might make members less likely to post things that they are not prepared to say openly.
			::I think it would be a good idea to transfer it over to the candidate question page, so please go ahead. ] (]) 19:22, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
			:::{{done}} ] (]) 06:20, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
			{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
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	|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Admin's Barnstar'''		|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Original Barnstar'''
	|-		|-
			|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | "For bringing such preposterous behavior to light..." I just finished saying my piece on Jimmy Wales' user page and it occurred to me that I was right! Anonymity is only necessary on wiki to protect people physically or financially — it is not meant to provide carte blanche for threats and backstage bullying. In your next term, actively work to end the veil of secrecy around ArbCom deliberations. ] (]) 16:57, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
	|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Good Block ] (]) 19:49, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
	|}		|}
			Thank you. If elected I will work for better protection for the information handled by Arbcom that can affect people in real life, and greater transparency in the decision making processes. ] (]) 19:54, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
			== Hi ==
	Thank you. It just happened I was the only one in the shop when Bugs started shouting, and I've kept my eye on it as I kind of had that feeling....... ] (]) 19:52, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
			* <- that's a really cheap barnstar.
	:So you have already blocked someone :) I am so proud of you. I am working on some lessons in page protection in case I fight some vandals after supper. Good luck! Thanks for the yummy cupcakes you left on your page. --] <sup>(])</sup> 22:29, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
			Hi Elen.
			:I can only recall once that I've ever spoken to you directly, but I did want to drop by and say hi. Perhaps I don't have the best of reputations on wiki, but regardless of what others think I wanted to express my own personal thanks to you. I know that you've recently gone through some very trying times, and I truly admire the way you've handled it all. Regardless of the end results, I wanted to say it outright that I very much appreciate all you have given to our project. The time, the dedication, the thought, the insight, and in many ways the very heart of who you are as a person. I don't always "get it" when you use phrases that are germane to your own culture, but I see a kind and intelligent person behind your efforts. That means a lot to me.
			It seems that the older I get, the more I'm reminded on a daily basis how precious our time is in this reality. I think it is so sad that so much time is expended in railing against other people; and often people we will never have the chance to meet in real life. I hope you'll forgive me this rant on your talk page, but it's something of a cathartic exercise for me. I truly admire your honesty, your integrity, and your kindness. You are a good person. You have a good heart. I wanted to tell you that. I wish I would have told others that when I had the chance. You're good people Elen of the Roads, and I'm a better person for having read the things you've said. All my best to you and all you hold dear. — <small><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding:1px;"><b>]</b> : ]</span></small> 09:01, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
	::Yeah, suddenly all these extra bells and whistles start sprouting on your page. The gadget toolbar is now offering me 20 more options, and I have no idea what most of 'em do. I'm terrified of blocking myself or deleting the mainpage or something :) And of course I couldn't just get the gobby ones you can tell to shut up - I helped write the child protection policy, so I know damn fine what it says. Glad you enjoyed the cupcakes :) ] (]) 22:48, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
			:Ched, thank you so much for taking the time to write this. I have always found you to be a very thoughtful person (I don't go much on wiki reputations anyway), and I value your kind thoughts here. At the end of the day, I am convinced that the world goes round more smoothly if we try to understand each other and remember there are real people behind the typed words, even if we never get to know them. ] (]) 13:33, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
	==Cake defacer==
	WikiLove..? ] ] 21:56, 28 October 2010 (UTC).
	== Thanks ==		== PMA? ==
	I'll take it. There is too much teacher in me for my own good; I want people to understand why what they are saying is plausible or not. But you are right: that is not relevant to WP policies, and I think I should step away before things start getting to me. ] (]) 23:05, 28 October 2010 (UTC)		Elen, would you mind taking a look at ]? In for blocking PMA/JCS back in February, you included as one of the hints the use of semicolons in edit summaries. Having stumbled upon ], I personally don't have the slightest shadow of a doubt over who {{user|Wtshymanski}} is. --] (]) 12:00, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
			:I believe Wtshymanski probably has a similar secondary educational background to PMA/JCS - his use of language suggests someone who has been taught formal grammar, syntax, punctuation etc. However, PMA majored in humanities, while Wtshymanski almost exclusively edits articles in the science/technology arena (the move request concerns a German chemist). shows only 14 article overlaps in over 100,000 edits between them. PMA might well have advanced the same arguments about the use of ss rather than the German character, but I can't imagine PMA editing articles on or . --] (]) 14:17, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
	:No worries. I've been involved in a few cases now where people have some new scientific theory, and in my experience arguing from first principles only encourages them to believe that this is the right process.--] (]) 23:14, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
			:: There are hundreds of thousands of registered editors and I must be the same person as this other person because I've used semicolons in an edit summary? And because I like the English alphabet to be used in English language text? Get PMA to say he's not me - that's as believable as me saying I'm not PMA. --] (]) 14:39, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
	::Me too. But for whatever reason, I still do. I think that this is it for that approach, though :) ] (]) 23:25, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
			::: Like I said on your talkpage, while the IP editor asked the question in good faith, I think the answer is that there's no chance you're PMA. I just thought you should be aware of the suggestion. --] (]) 15:21, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
			:::Although I have been ] of Wtshymanski, (as have , I have never seen even the slightest hint of anything underhanded or dishonest in any of his actions, and a deceptive practice like sockpuppetry flies in the face of everything I have observed about his behavior. If they are smart (and Wtshymanski certainly is), sockmasters ''avoid'' calling attention to themselves with incivility. --] (]) 15:43, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
	== tks ==
			::::Ahh, but if they are smarter than you, they'd delibrately be rude so as to relieve suspicion that they are a sockmaster. After all, we're willing to posit individuals who spend every waking or amphetamine-supported moment on Misplaced Pages obsessively carrying out their incredibly subtle schemes. Thank Jimbo we've got people willing to bring their own Maglites and thermoses to the mall to expose these monsters. --] (]) 16:23, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
			:::::But if they're really smarter, they'll know that we would know that appearing to be deliberately rude as ruse is obviously a ruse, so they would be not rude cause we'd expect a smart sock to be rude. <small>But it really doesn't matter cause there's ] in both goblets</small> <small>]</small> 16:43, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
			:::::: That only works if we're as smart as the hidden sockmaster, but I've postulated that HS is much smarter than we are, so we are not able to discern his (or her) subtle ploy as in fact a ploy at all. --] (]) 17:45, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
			:::::::Yes, but if they're smarter than themselves, then... wait. Um. Well, ]. But that's what you wanted all along, isn't it, Mr. Hidden Sockmaster! <small>(I concede that NEE's comment is better than mine, because it's written in the fine print somewhere that a Princess Bride reference automatically trumps a South Park reference.)</small> --] (]) 18:03, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
			:::::::: By "we" I should have clearly said "all of the in-play editors who aren't aliases of HS". This might be a very small number, of course...for all I know, you're *all* tentacles of some malevolent polymath. --] (]) 19:39, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
			:::::::::Hey, I use semi-colons in edit summaries sometimes, too! And no, Im not ... ;P ] (]) 23:07, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
			:::::::::: Indeed. All it shows is that you went to a school where they taught punctuation. Or at least, that's what the Hidden Sockmaster would have us all believe. ] (]) 23:17, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
			== ] ==
	* Thanks for your kind words on my talk page. I was trying not to answer 'cause I didn't wanna start a lot of side-bar discussion, but then Malleus said something I had to answer. Thanks! &bull;&nbsp;]&nbsp;(]) 23:53, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
			You might like to be aware: that Wtshymanski does not approve of IP editors being able to edit Misplaced Pages. He also has a looong history of seldom crediting any other editor of acting in ] and ''never'' an IP editor.
	== So, you're an admin now. ==
			::"Most editors are here to hurt the encyclopedia, not to help it."
	Excellent. This is all going according to plan. Now I can move my timetable for complete and utter world domination up by 27 minutes and 4 seconds (it's meticulously detailed, you see...)
			::::::::::::::::''- Wtshymanski on his own talk page.''
			You may also care to read . A second RfU is apparently in draft as I type. ] (]) 14:09, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
	]
			:None of which makes him a sock of PMAnderson, which was the question asked. ] (]) 14:15, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
			::Maybe we shoud be checking to see if 86.145.244.183 is another tendril of the PMA conspiracy? All I know for sure is that there's me and all those other guys...who might be me typing in my sleep. --] (]) 14:26, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
			::Er no! The first point that I saw raised was you pointing out that an IP editor may have edited in ] (). That makes my point apposite. I had responded on Wtshymanski's talk page, but added it here because I figured (correctly) that the comment would be deleted quickly because Wtshymanski does not like his talk page showing what a tendentious editor he really is. ] (]) 16:29, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
	In all seriousness though, congradulations. You deserve the mop. <span style="text-shadow:#CC1100 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span> 01:20, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
			{{outdent}} Months later: how long does something like this have to hang around? Every few weeks the spinner lands on my name and I get threatened with some kind of "partly constructed RFC/U" gobbletygook. I'm baffled as to what triggered this latest go around. Since you've been helpful in the past, I'm appealing to you to explain to me what's going on. I don't understand any of these people. --] (]) 14:03, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
	==Ask an Expert==
			:Your inability to "understand any of these people" might be related to your steadfast refusal to have a substantive conversation about your behavior. I'm just saying.
	Hi there. Could you weigh in at ]? I figured you, being an Egyptologist, might be able to clear it up for us. <span style="text-shadow:#458B00 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span> 05:07, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
			:As has been ], such pages ] We even have a ] for marking them.
	== Blurb on you ==
			:That being said, this one seems to have stalled. Wtshymanski, would you like me to ask DieSwartzPunkt to either move ahead with it or delete it? --] (]) 16:44, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
	Hi, I really made some wild guesses. Could you please check and edit if necessary? ]. Thanks and congrats. ] ] 12:08, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Few things I'd like to correct - I'm English, and I'm a local government officer by trade, and have been the Complaints Officer for a city - hence my rather anal interest in policy. Egyptology is strictly an amateur interest although I'm fine with you reporting it, as it's probably vastly more interesting to most people :).--] (]) 12:40, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
	::I have corrected. --] (]) 12:50, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
			== ''The Signpost'': 03 December 2012 ==
	== Pondering ==
			<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
	Congratulations, by the way. :)
			{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2012-12-03}}
			</div><!--Volume 8, Issue 49-->
			<div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">
			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 19:42, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
			</div>
			<!-- EdwardsBot 0413 -->
			== ] (MMA SPA) ==
	I wasn't sure if it was appropriate to post this on the RFC/U talk page, but I have wondered for some time now if there isn't some involvement of the Autism/Aspergers spectrum influencing the way he thinks and behaves. I don't mean that as any sort of personal attack on him, just an honest question, as it would explain a lot. ] (]) 14:50, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
	:I don't want to speculate as to cause, particularly given the modern theory that the Autism spectrum extends from normal behaviour (so at the extreme, you can label practically any male behaviour as autistic!!). There's nothing more unusual showing up than this very rigid approach, so I doubt there's anything more to it. It could be as much due to insecurity without rules, or a belief in sticking to one's guns, both of which are at least as much down to upbringing as to anything else. The issue is how to deal with it, particularly as there is a level on which he can see what we are saying, and another level on which he cannot work out how to modify his response. --] (]) 15:09, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
	::I got you - I wouldn't really want to advance that as an opinion; like I say, just pondering. And in case it looks bad, I want to say I had nothing to do with the IP who did just post that to the talk page. :| ] (]) 18:07, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
			Please review the very short history this user has had at ] and determine if Administrative intervention is appropriate. I have tried to explain to the user the policies, yet they do not wish to debate in Misplaced Pages's rules. ] (]) 19:51, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
	== <big>#</big> ==
			:Hasteur has claimed in his nomination that the first time in world history that an openly gay person and a woman will compete for a championship in mixed-martial arts in a globally televised event put on by the world's largest MMA league and which is already being covered in mainstream newspapers such as USA Today and the Detroit Free Press is neither notable nor verifiable. That claim is not just false, but frankly insulting. Anyone with a computer can verify this information and to suggest that the first ever openly gay person and also first ever woman, who is an olympian to boot, competing for a world title on an event televised around the world is not historic is so bizarre that it does not deserve to be responded to with anything that gives it any ounce of legitimatcy, because objectively Hasteur either did not research the subject, is flat out lying, or is being both sexist and homophobic. THAT is the kind of behavior that any freedom loving person would find unacceptable! One need to be a femnist or gay rights advocate to be insulted by this level of ignorance. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 20:18, 8 December 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			::Oh look, it's a sock. What a surprise. --] (]) 23:04, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
			::: You might also want to look at {{Userlinks|10.0.0.x}} and the IP {{IPuser|173.76.160.22}}. ]]<sup>]</sup> 08:12, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
			:::: Dennis Brown got the named account. I've not seen anyone socking on a Verizon range before - which is not of course to say that it isn't BStudent0 or similar at his auntie's house. I've given the IP 48 hrs off for harassment - let me know if he reappears. ] (]) 14:03, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
			==Miscellany for deletion==
	I've actually never understood why it is called the pound sign. As far as I know it had never been used to represent either the currency or the or the unit of measurement. The only use this symbol has in American English other than being a key on a telephone keypad is as the symbol for the word "number." Strange thing this language of ours. Here's something else odd I just discovered: if you type it into the search bar instead of leading to the article on the symbol you get the main page. ] (]) 17:38, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
			Mmm... yeah. I may have got a little carried away, but basically I meant what I said. I expect it's time to move db's RFA to her userspace, or what do you think? Incidentally, you might like to check out ] of the main page on a certain date a couple of centuries ago. Ah, fame. ] &#124; ] 00:23, 9 December 2012 (UTC).
			: Bloody thing wouldn't be so bad if it was obviously entirely made up, as it is it's a BLP violation (says he went out with some woman off the tv - while this may well be an 'in your dreams' scenario, it's also a BLP violation). Come on, he's had this thing deleted twice before. 'He's fixing it up' really isn't going to fly - both he and you should have realised that posting it as it was (with the addition of tv lady) is just going to get it deleted again. If he wants to 'fix it up' he can do it elsewhere. As for db...has anyone had the temerity to complain? And lived? --] (]) 01:28, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
	==Hey==		== talkback ==
	Erm, I would like you to review my unblock on ] because there appears to be no admin about doing unblocking at the moment, so I would like you to do it. (somehow...I've not been autoblocked...)] (]) 18:26, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
			I did reply this morning (USA - Eastern time). Again - sorry for being such a grump. I know you've been through a lot, and I shouldn't have added to it. — <small><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding:1px;"><b>]</b> : ]</span></small> 01:55, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
	==Better late than never==
			:K... ttyl — <small><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding:1px;"><b>]</b> : ]</span></small> 01:31, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
	Congratulations on your new t-shirt! ] (]) 16:01, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
			==<s>Still</s>No time to withdraw==
	== Special Invite ==
			I am surprised you are standing again for arbcom after your recent record. I refer to the following instances, which are just those I know about and come to mind:
			# Your ill judged reference to "Obsessive compulsive anal retentive on the autism spectrum"
	{| style="border: 1px solid {{{border|black}}}; background-color: {{{color|#CCFFBD}}};"
			# Your blocking of an account you were involved in an arbcom case with as a party
	|rowspan="2" |] You have been invited to comment in a special ''']''' page. I am looking for areas in which I can improve. I have identified you as both an experienced and trusted Wikipedian, and as someone that has had sufficient contact with me to able to recognize areas in which I can improve.
			# Your blocking of an editor for posting a cartoon
			# Your blocking of an editor who had behaved after a warning form another administrator
			# Your saying an editor "could edit if he changed his ISP"
			# Your lack of understanding of technical issues, yet running many many checkusers
			# Your blocks of a user for editing on another Wiki, together with unfounded accusations of socking.
			There have been worse abuses by other arbitrators, but I think that is enough to suggest that you should not be standing.
	Please feel free to visit and post any comments or criticism you have. At a certain point, I cannot improve if no one tells me what I need to work on. Thanks in advance, <span style="text-shadow:#91219E 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span> 00:29, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
	|}
	== Copyright ==
			I urge you to withdraw.
	Hello. I'm sorry, but I didn't know where the templates for copyright violation are. ] (]) 22:36, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
	:] Also explains what to do if someone keeps inserting copyright material. Ping me if he does it again and I haven't already blocked him for it. --] (]) 22:41, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
	::He's done it again & thanks for the info. ] (]) 23:47, 31 October 2010 (UTC)		'']&nbsp;]'', <small>20:01, 11 December 2012 (UTC).</small><br />
	:::Again a couple more times as well.] (]) 00:10, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
	::::I'd gone to bed, but I see Dabomb got him. --] (]) 10:17, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
	:::::He did, but thanks for the help any way. ] (]) 14:17, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
			:Isn't the community the best judge of these things? Let's see what happened.--] (]) 20:09, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
	== The mystery sentence ==
			::Quite. And if Elen were to withdraw it would simply leave one more position available to the crazies, which is perhaps Rich Farmbrough's intention. ] ] 20:12, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
	I'll search for the source of the and when I catch the culprit I'll hand them over to you. ;) ] (]) 23:37, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
	:LOL :) Sometimes I think the two halves of my brain are edit-warring --] (]) 23:48, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
	::If it had continued I was going to report one half for 3RR. Don't know how that would have worked though. :) I could fill a book with the posts I've had to correct. ] (]) 00:12, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
			:::Crazies - on Arbcom? Some mistake, surely. '']&nbsp;]'', <small>20:15, 11 December 2012 (UTC).</small><br />
	== AN/I ==
			::::I don't think so. There are quite a few of them, and we surely don't need any more. ] ] 20:17, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
	Dear Elen: I'm so sorry for being so out of touch with how things are done these days. I do think we were more brazen once! There used to be a piece of Arbitration Committee precedent -- which incidentally I don't seem to be able to find anymore -- that used to say something to the effect of: "Users who exhaust the community's patience sufficiently to be blocked indefinitely, and no Misplaced Pages administrator sees fit to unblock them, are considered permanently banned from Misplaced Pages by community consensus." People used to quote it, but I note they don't any more and ] looks considerably different from what it did. Thanks so much for your help in explaining how it's evolved to me. --] &#124; ] 00:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
	:As I say, no worries. These changes happen, and it's hard to immediately catch up. I do remember it saying that when I started, so the change is probably around 18 months ago. I have the advantage that I've just recently run for admin, so I had to learn all this stuff. I do think the community was more given to just timing people out, but we seem to have seen more ex-users who won't stop popping up. We've also come up with ], so that people who have 'exhausted the community's patience' get sent away to edit Wikinews or something for six months, and can then ask to be let back in.--] (]) 00:09, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
	:: *laughs* It sounds a bit like the British Empire penchant for deporting people off to ]! But nevertheless, Wikinews or Commons might be a kind of therapy for their editing fixation, since the interaction space will be cooler in temperature on almost every other Wikimedia wiki (except some of the WP languages) than English Misplaced Pages. And, as for adminship, well done for making it. I should add that in my day, I got made an admin with only 600-odd edits and three months' experience. We did things differently then! --] &#124; ] 00:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
	::: Hmm....Wikinews=Botany Bay. Anyway, it works sometimes. ] is a success story for that policy. And thanks on the admin thing - yeah, it's hard these days if you don't have 10 FAs to your name (which I don't!). It must have been interesting in the days when more people knew each other and the whole project was smaller. More of a sense of common purpose, but perhaps less of a definition of it. These days it seems to be much more afflicted with ] - that well known trans-uranic heavy element.] (]) 00:42, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
			:::::Incompetence and defensiveness may be worse than craziness. '']&nbsp;]'', <small>20:37, 11 December 2012 (UTC).</small><br />
	== ''The Signpost'': 1 November 2010 ==
			::No Elen would be quite within her rights to withdraw. '']&nbsp;]'', <small>20:15, 11 December 2012 (UTC).</small><br />
			:::Which is to miss Wehwalt's point big time. ] ] 20:17, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
			::::Some people are more talented at missing the point than others. ] (]) 20:24, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
			:::::Indeed they are. ] ] 20:33, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
			:Ah the elections are done? Shame. '']&nbsp;]'', <small>20:35, 11 December 2012 (UTC).</small><br />
			::Rich, please stop. This is beneath you. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 21:10, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
			:::Sorry I am not active on WP these days and was under the impression the elections were still running (even looked for the place to vote). I would have removed/re-written the section if not for the comments from others. '']&nbsp;]'', <small>21:15, 11 December 2012 (UTC).</small><br />
			::::You would have been better advised not to make your comments in the first place. ] ] 22:11, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
			==Apologies and qualified support/sympathy for recent actions==
			For the above, Elen I was under the impression that there was still a little time left to run on the elections. I would still urge you to stand down if elected.
			Having just seen the tip of the iceberg of the recent imbroglio, I can see you were in a cleft stick, and it appears that your actions were not completely at odds with good whistle-blowing ethics. Having been on the receiving end of the apparatchiks actions, as you know, I can sympathise with what you have been going through. I have been concerned with the abuse of the email list for some time, particularly as the committee has failed in it's legal and ethical obligations regarding this data, and the historical leaked emails show the committee in a bad light, regarding anyone with a good grasp of English as "pompous" for example.
			Chin up and get editing. '']&nbsp;]'', <small>21:12, 11 December 2012 (UTC).</small><br />
			:What a very strange exchange above. I really don't know how to respond to it other than to deny the rumours about myself and Helpful Pixie Bot and insist that we were just good friends.
			:I'm sorry you didn't get the chance to vote me out. If elected (which I'm not at all sure is likely, only time will tell) I would feel honour bound to take my seat on the assumption that the community at the very least viewed me as the least worst option :)
			:I share your concerns about data protection (if Arbcom were a UK organisation subject to our data protection legislation, it would have been fined out of existence by now and all the Arbs would be in jail) but am hopeful that the proposed crm will provide a superior technical solution which limits the prospect of misuse of personal data. I'm also hopeful that some form of FOI policy can be agreed on, so discussions not featuring personal data can be at the very least released on demand after the case or whatever is over. ] (]) 00:51, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
			::I understand that the Wikimedia foundation once seriously considered moving the servers to Britain, but dropped the idea when they realised that they would have to purge a huge amount of content to comply with British law. My information is that copyright law was the main issue, but I wouldn't be surprised if data protection issues were involved too. ] (]) 09:03, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
			::Interestingly I filed a request for information that followed the DPA protocol with all then sitting arbitrators, and the committee, some months ago. It was ignored totally including by those members who are based in the UK. There are implications here because the transfer of personal information into and out of the EU is subject to additional restrictions relating to handling those data with the appropriate safeguards, corresponding more or less to the DPA, which is something that has been totally failed in so far.
			::
			::The committee's motto should be "Nothing so important it can't be ignored, nothing so trivial we can't ban someone."
			::
			:::'']&nbsp;]'', <small>21:11, 13 December 2012 (UTC).</small><br />
			::::Richard, could you pursue such complaints at the ArbCom pages? Elen has been subjected to a lot, and deserves a bit of rest. You are no doubt right to be upset, because nobody can be just all the time. Even Jesus couldn't keep all his disciples happy. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 21:21, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
			:::::I'm having a conversation here, it is useful to see that we are of the same opinion about this, as many other things. '']&nbsp;]'', <small>22:43, 13 December 2012 (UTC).</small><br />
			== ''The Signpost'': 10 December 2012 ==
	<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">		<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
	{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2010-11-01}}		{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2012-12-10}}
	</div><!--Volume 6, Issue 44-->		</div><!--Volume 8, Issue 50-->
	<div style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">''']''' &middot; ] &middot; ] &middot; ] (]) 03:40, 2 November 2010 (UTC)</div>		<div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">
			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 20:51, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
			</div>
	<!-- EdwardsBot 0085 -->		<!-- EdwardsBot 0415 -->
			== Precious ==
	== ] ==
			<div style="margin: auto; max-width: 60em; box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba( 192, 192, 192, 0.75 ); border-radius: 1em; border: 1px solid #a7d7f9; margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0.5em 1em 1em; color: black;" class="ui-helper-clearfix">
	] could perhaps use your sagacity. If you are interested, the discussion starts ''']'''. It spreads over three talkpage headings:
			<div>
	#];
			<div style="float: right; margin-left: 1em; background-color: #ddd; border: 5px solid #ddd; box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); border-radius: 0.5em;">]</div>
	#]; and
			'''civility'''<br />
	#]
			Thank you for your answers to my questions about our ], for your with "", for a ], - repeating: you are an ] (22 November 2009)!
	You might want to first read where I was first engaged by one of the involved editors on my talk page ''']'''. Thanks! — ''']]''' 16:48, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
			--] (]) 08:36, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
	:Thanks! — ''']]''' 04:30, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
			</div></div>
	== TerraCognita ==		== Muffins ==
			===English muffins===
			Hello. I wouldn't normally ask a personal-experience-type question of another editor, but I was so excited by your edit that I have cast caution aside: are you actually British or British-resident or British-visiting <small>(OtherNationalitiesAndLocalitiesMayApplyNoConclusionIsHereinImpliedYourMileageMayVaryAlwaysReadTheInstructions)</small>, and have personally consumed muffins in their BrE non-cakey variety and in the AmE "English muffin" species? If so I think I might faint with pure joy. :) That article is depressing me far beyond what should be possible in writing about small breadlike objects... Best wishes ] (]) 09:22, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
			: I am indeed an Englishwoman, and have eaten and made Lancashire oven-bottom muffins (which are believed at least in Lancashire to be the originals), I have frequently eaten the things sold in supermarkets as muffins (which have a dusting of cornmeal on the outside) and more occasionally American "English muffins" (which must be made with a lot of yeast as they have a texture a bit like ciabatta) and I have both eaten and baked the things with choc chips, blueberries etc that you bake in twists of paper in muffin pans. I also have sources, as I have an interest in historical recipes.--] (]) 21:14, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
			===French fries===
			:: We Americans are weird that way -- we eat "French" fries and "French" toast that an exchange student from France years ago assured us were not French. And we call our language "English" every tho it's obviously not the same thing you folks use over there. (Took a break in the ] this past weekend and some Brit sounding folks wanted to come back at night with ]! Seem ungrateful to want to bring fire into our little park.) <small>]</small> 22:04, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
			::: Presumably you are aware that French fires are so called because the potatoes are "Frenched" - cut into thin strips, before being fried. In English English, of course "being Frenched" has a totally different osculatory meaning. '']&nbsp;]'', <small>21:29, 13 December 2012 (UTC).</small><br />
			===French toast===
	As a frequent ANI visitor, I figured you would know. It looks like another incarnation of Schwyz or whatever it is. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 21:18, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
	:As it was, I only had about 20 minutes spare, so didn't have time to go looking on ANI. Is this the same chap as Terra Novus...or whatever his name was? --] (]) 22:49, 2 November 2010 (UTC)		:: French fries are Belgian :) The french do make something called pain perdu which is supposed to be the original of 'french toast', but I don't get the impression it's much like American french toast. --] (]) 22:57, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
			:::Nothing like our "eggy bread" really, which isn't at all sweet. That article on ] is disgrace; wouldn't it be nice to have more than just a few decent articles on food and drink? I keep dipping in and out of ], a drink I still enjoy, but always end up being drawn towards a brewery instead. <small>No need for any speculation on why that might be.</small> ] ] 23:10, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
	::I don't think so. It was calling itself Tigre Tigre, or something like that; and then various versions of TT-something. After I posted the original comment above, the user in question was indef'd as an obvious sock, and the SPI on Schwyz was re-opened yet again. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 01:45, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
			:::I often think that Misplaced Pages would be as well served by the removal of much of its material as it would by the addition of more, and in that spirit I've made some changes to that ] article. I would defy anyone to make a credible case that my version isn't a substantial improvement on the original. ] ] 00:18, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
	==It's raining thanks spam!==
			:::: A definite improvement I would say. ] (]) 01:01, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
	* Please pardon the intrusion. This tin of thanks spam is offered to everyone who commented or !voted (Support, Oppose or Neutral) on my recent RfA. I appreciate the fact that you care enough about the encyclopedia and its community to participate in this forum.
			::::: Improved? Obviously. Complete without the vanilla??? I don't think so. <small>]</small> 01:11, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
	* There are a host of processes that further need community support, including content review (], ], ], and ]). You can also consider becoming a ]. If you have the requisite experience and knowledge, consider running for ] yourself!
			:::Difficulty with "American" food is once you get beyond ]s you end up with lots of regional variation; Southern "French Toast" is likely to be much sweeter than that in the North. <small>]</small> 01:11, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
	* If you have any further comments, input or questions, please do feel free to drop a line to me on my talk page. I am open to all discussion. Thanks &bull;&nbsp;]&nbsp;(]) 02:20, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
			::::Difficulty is all the uncited "In Pakistan, French toast is called Scratch my Arse, and is made only with the milk of virgin cows". You get my my drift I'm sure. Last time I looked Misplaced Pages wasn't a cookery book. ] ] 01:19, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
	* Tks for your kind words on my talk page. Cheers!&bull;&nbsp;]&nbsp;(]) 08:16, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
			:::::In Sweden, a ] (Fattiga_riddare) is fried bread first soaked in milk, and a "]" is fried bread first soaked in milk ''and egg''---according to Smalanders. In Ukraine, bread is soaked in milk on one side, and then fried. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 10:30, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
	== Re: Gavin ==		===Reliable sources for food===
			::::{{tps}}I have weird feelings about most of our food articles. On the one hand, I use WP all the time as a ''reader'' when I want to learn more about dishes, particularly those from regions away from myself. The problem is, most of the time I look at one, the editor in me wants to delete at least half of the article, since it's unsourced. But what sources should we use for food? Would citing a recipe book work? But that would only give one idiosyncratic version of the dish. And while I don't doubt that these foods exist, are they all notable? I've never heard of an article on a dish being taken to AfD...so do they have default notability? And how do we deal with the problem that Malleus points out, wherein much of the article consists of alleged local variations on trans-ethnic/national dishes? ] says we should remove all of that info...but somehow it just pains me to do so. I find that often all I can do is to glance at the article as quickly as possible to get the info I need, then rapidly close it so that my fingers don't start reaching for the "edit" button. ] (]) 02:53, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
			:::::The sources we use for food articles should be as reliable as those we use for any other articles. Whether individual recipe books would qualify as reliable sources depends on for what and who wrote them. The overwhelming problem with food articles is the "my granny always used clarified butter, but many nowadays recommend ghee, known in Pakistan as ghoo" rubbish. There's probably a Wiki recipe book project somewhere, but this isn't it. ] ] 04:37, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
			::::::Try ]. Not sure how much is going on with it these days, but in the early days of Wikibooks it was one of the largest projects. --]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;<sup>]</sup>✌ 12:33, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
			:::::Ah, it's not that bad... ], ], ], ] and ] all turned out alright ;) ]<sup>TT</sup>(]) 12:36, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
			::: I agree that your average coffee table cookbook is no use as a source. ] is invaluable when confronted with an animal or vegetable you have never tackled before, but Misplaced Pages is not a cookbook. There are however authors with an interest in the history, geography, enthnography or what have you of cooking, whose works can form the equivalent of academic sources for dishes and cooking, so it's not impossible.--] (]) 21:34, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
			::::Aren't most of the food articles we have here because of some cultural significance? Like Worm's example ] (gag...). I would think a ''reputable and well known'' cookbook would be fine for providing some facts such as ingredients, just not enough to establish the notability, which would require sources more independent from the subject matter. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 23:51, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
			::::: ] newspaper features a weekly column by Felicity Cloake - how to make the perfect....whatever . The one thing it shows is that no two cooks ever agree, meaning that no recipe book can be considered a definitive source. The one time it could is if a famous restaurant or chef publishes their signature recipe - like the notorious ] chocolate cake that no-one can make, or ]'s original ]. ] (]) 00:02, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
			::::::Agreed there is no definitive recipe for....anything. But what if I provided three different but similar recipes and all were sourced back to reputable sources, like the Guardian, Betty Crocker and Rachel Ray's cookbooks? Wouldn't this be encyclopedic as showing the varieties that are still considered the same dish? One small paragraph might cover all three varieties, listing only the differences? Seems to be the most neutral way to present the information, obviously depending on the article. Just a thought, I'm better at eating the food than ]. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 00:12, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
			::::::: That would be ]. You could quote Felicity Cloake or ] comparing recipes, but you can't do it yourself. Quite apart from queries like who died and made Betty Crocker a reliable source for anything to do with baked goods :) ] (]) 00:18, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
			::::::::] I think we did ;-) And I wouldn't compare them, just document that multiple recipes exist. But again, just curious, not proclaiming policy. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 00:44, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
			::::::::: Backfired joke. In the UK, the name Betty Crocker is synonymous with packet 'just add water' cake mixes and ready made frosting that seems to contain the entire output of a chemistry lab. If you want the absolute rock solid reliable source for baking, it's the little book available from ] flour when you send in a label and a few bob. ] (]) 00:58, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
			::::::::Not necessarily -- ] So if we say ''the majority of sources do not include vanilla in French Toast, but a notable minority, including ] do'' we're just following policy. And isn't a difference a simple ]? <small>]</small> 01:12, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
			::::::::: It would be if there were a finite number of cookbooks. But their numbers are as the stars in heaven, or the sand on the seashore, for lo, . ] (]) 01:21, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
			:::::::::{{ec}} That assumes you have found all the sources, so that might be OR. If you said "Recipes vary, where some such as Betty Crocker Cookbook uses beef(), The Guardian recommends only using pork()" then you aren't giving an opinion except that they vary, and you have backed it up with sources. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 01:23, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
			===Muffins and Crumpets===
	:''I can't decide if Gavin tells fibs, or if he just processes and stores information very differently to most people.''
			:::::Qwyrxian, I could have written what you wrote, almost down to the last letter. I've had several food articles on my watchlist for ages, and I admit I'm a lot more liberal about letting questionable changes stand than I am with articles on any other topic. When 90% of an article is unsourced to begin with, it's really hard to demand sources for new additions unless they're wildly implausible or off-topic. And there are ''so many'' regional variations—even among standard restaurant fare, let alone dishes one would prepare at home—that it's sometimes very hard to judge: what may seem sky-is-blue, duh! obvious to me may be completely unheard of a mere 500 miles away, and vice versa, never mind on a different continent. There's a dearth of online sources that I'd consider reliable, so it's frustrating. (Btw, this thread reminds me: could anyone here explain the precise difference between a ] and a crumpet? Our articles don't make it clear, and I've read endlessly confusing things off-wiki.) ] (]) 07:57, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
			::::::Please do not use the C-word in a discussion of muffins. That way lies death and madness. I have spoken. :) Best wishes ] (]) 08:09, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
			::Elen, thank you very much for the reply. (Sorry I've been unable to respond quickly.) I would be very happy to see you show up at the article with some sources. At the moment, as Malleus and other wise people say above, the trouble is that the debate is all very much of the ''"I have seen and eaten these so they exist/No, I have not seen and eaten these, so they do not exist/or the claimed Am/Br difference does not exist" ''type. It's very depressing and I am guilty of it as much as anyone - except that I do find it difficult to know what else to do when it is just a game of assertion and counter-assertion and I do feel it necessary to at least make the effort to contradict, based on what I have personally ]-eaten! Of course I should not be doing this but it's a bit like watching people who only know Baroque music claim that rap does not and cannot exist, or vice versa. If you have heard both then it's hard to see people claim that one does not exist, or that there is no difference! We will never really move it on without some decent sources but I quail at the thought of what these might be; and I guess I have to accept the risk that I won't ''like ''them - that is, what if someone produces a credible-but-wrong US source which clearly states "The product sold in the US as 'English muffin' is exactly the same as the product sold in England as an 'Unamerican non-cakoid muffin' or whateverthehell whateverthehell"? If that happens, I'm screwed aren't I (not in a good way) and there's then a battle on to find a better source that contradicts this. I have no doubt that my example is plausible, for all the reasons that people say above - food is such a personally and locally accented business that even the knowledgeable will produce what is little more than folklore. However, even references that were debatable would be better than none - they'd at least be a platform for further development and an improvement on the current shouting match. I'm probably wasting too much time on this so I feel guilty encouraging others but do please come and help kick it into shape a bit. And, as someone said, "This talk page is amazing, surely a Misplaced Pages classic." - it's probably worth reading for a laugh, given the modest admission charge. And yes, it is part of a broader pattern of much-loved, ''I-know-what-I-know'' subjects where there's a lot of information but few references and not much sign of, er, encyclopaediaism. (-ness. -dom. -igkeit.) Thanks and best wishes ] (]) 08:07, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
			:I don't know what part of England Elen is from, though from what she says above Lancashire seems likely. However, I have lived in England for over 60 years, starting in the Midlands and subsequently spending time in East Anglia, the South East, the South West, the North East, and the North West. Until I moved to the North West I had never known the word "muffin" to be used for anything remotely like what Elen calls "Lancashire oven-bottom muffins". In much of Yorkshire those things are called "bread cakes", and in most of the rest of England they are pretty well unknown, under any name. I hate to say it, but what I grew up knowing as "muffins" (and what in my experience were what the word usually meant in most of England before American "muffins" were introduced) were indistinguishable from what Americans call "English muffins". My mother in law, an American, is convinced that "English muffin" is one of those things like "French toast", "Brussels sprout" (which originated in England), and "cor anglais", and is a purely American invention, but she ain't right. Of course, my experience may not be typical, and I can't swear that I actually came across muffins in every one of the places where I have lived, but what Americans call "English muffins" do actually have a well-established history of being the "muffins" eaten in at least substantial parts of England.
	The latter. I looked into this a while ago and did not find any evidence that he was deliberately lying. ] (]) 21:09, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
			:Unfortunately, seeing this discussion led me to look at the article ]. I was horrified. However, I will resist the temptation to spend my time trying to do anything about it. I long ago learned that it is a futile waste of time trying to do anything with most of these food articles. Whatever improvements one makes, it is not long before someone whose grandmother made the definitive version comes back and messes it up again. ] (]) 09:36, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
	:I am inclined to think you are right. It feels more like the experiences I have had of people who do process information using different algorithms to the rest of us. One of my daughters is dyslexic, and while not at all suggesting that Gavin is the same, she processes info in a radically different way to "normal" people. Interestingly, it makes her very good at finding things - something noted of dyslexics generally. "Normals" look for lost items in places they expect to have put them - but if they had put them there, they would have found them in minutes. A dyslexic person has no hesitation in searching for your car keys in the fridge, because their answer to "why on earth would I have put them in there" is "why not?" --] (]) 21:30, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
			::James: I think this might be the last time I say this, or perhaps not, but I ''absolutely promise you,'' on my honour as <nowiki></nowiki> that if you go to Sainsbury's round the corner here in London EC1 and buy a pack of ordinary plain muffins and then go to the supermarket in Manhattan, Kansas, and do the same with English muffins, you will have ''two absolutely distinct products.'' I promise you. Really. I have done it. The texture is ''markedly ''different. I know I am just doing the same thing again that I have decried, the assertion and counter-assertion, but I am stuck until we get some credible references into the article. I have ''never'' seen the AmE English muffin on sale here and would be very interested to see this. But I really should stop this now - I think it is close to affecting my mental health, or perhaps more than close. In passing I note that I missed an opportunity for a gag somewhere in ''"counter-assertion"'' (it would have been a bit'' half-baked,'' mind you) and also that'' "Proposal to split" ''in the English muffin talk page is possibly the best section header I have ever seen, anywhere - whether it was deliberate or not. With best wishes to all, ] (]) 10:53, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
	::I think he has a lot to offer, but unless he can demonstrate it, perhaps by working on articles in his user space, I'm not sure what else we can do. His attack on Mike Cline mentions the idea of "mutual respect", but it isn't clear what Gavin means. Mike, who has impressed me on almost every level (as an admin and an editor) has shown great respect for Gavin throughout this process. I do wonder, and I am curious, is there anyone who can communicate with Gavin or who has in the past? He has had editors who have agreed with him on various discussions. I know, ], but I tried and failed to work with him. ] (]) 23:30, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
			:::This thread has gone stale. Time to ] (]) 15:57, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
	==]==
	A7 not valid! Have you seen how many times that spam has been deleted? ] (]) 21:44, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
	:In which case you need to tell me. Nevertheless, in the opinion of the admin (ie me) it does not qualify for A7. Take it to AfD, and you can G4 every further instance. I'll even salt it for you. --] (]) 21:47, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
	::Yet you fail to explain why? ] (]) 21:53, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
	:::The threshold for A7 is very low. ] would get to pass A7. It really does have to be at the level of "My mate Norbert plays in a band at school" to fail A7. --] (]) 22:01, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
	::::I think you'll find that is a view held by a small minority of admins. ] (]) 22:06, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
	:::::If your interpretation were applied universally then AfD would be swamped, thank goodness most admins have more common sense. ] (]) 22:10, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
	:::::: I think you'll find that I know what A7 says. Can I advise that you stop digging and we leave it as an agreement to differ. As you'll see from my comment at AfD, he certainly isn't a complete unknown. The guy does get about and clearly has some dedicated fans, even if he does turn out not pass ]. --] (]) 22:19, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
	:::::::The A7 bar seems to move up and down depending on the admin. You still have yet to say what in the article indicated importance or significance. ] (]) 22:23, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
	::::::::I believe it does vary somewhat - also Orangemike has a low tolerance threshold for spam :) To my mind, saying he had cut a couple of records (hence Pearl the singer) that were turning up on numerous download sites, and was known on the Christian circuit (which he evidently is from the blog hits in Google) was enough to take it over the bar, as its very low. I don't just read the article, I do have a quick look to see if anyone else on teh interwebz has ever heard of the guy. --] (]) 22:36, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
	::::::::::Actually, the last delete was a G7 - author requests deletion, not an A7. ] (]) 22:40, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
	:::::::::::The prospect of an AfD obviously didn't appeal to them. ] was its previous incarnation and I'm certain it'll turn up again in the not to distant future. Sorry for the snippy tone earlier. ] (]) 23:00, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
	::::::::::::No worries. I'll keep an eye out to see if it appears again. ] (]) 23:11, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
	== page deleted ==		==You've got mail!==
			{{you've got mail|subject=|ts=09:55, 12 December 2012 (UTC)}}
			]]<sup>]</sup> 09:55, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
			==MMA Event Notability==
	(] (]) 09:26, 5 November 2010 (UTC)) Hello Elen, I wanted to ask why was the page that I created deleted Twisted Tribe ? I saw that there was a speedy deletion in process and I contested it, trying to explain why I made it. Then I didn't receive any feedback, I just saw this morning that the page is deleted, with no explanation to my contest. I would like to know what I did wrong, so next time it won't happen. Kind regards.
			] You are invited to join the discussion at ]. {{#if:|{{{more}}}}} ] (]) 18:46, 13 December 2012 (UTC)<!--Template:Please see-->
			:I'm reading it thanks. Looks like a good discussion going on. --] (]) 17:25, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
			==Thanks==
	:Hello. I deleted the page because the company is not yet notable in wikipedia definition (see ] for the requirements to appear in Misplaced Pages). The product and the developer both have more coverage and pass the requirements at ], but Twisted Tribe itself isn't getting the kind of coverage required to pass the notability test. If you have sources of the kind required by ] then I can put the deleted material on your userpage for you to work with, but you said it was an "up and coming" company, so I suspect that kind of coverage isn't out there yet. --] (]) 10:12, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
			Hi, thank you for letting me know about the botched edit. When I hit "save page", I bet there were a few others working on their own and thus it wiped out theirs. I decided to let my outdated comment go and latch onto the current discussion. Thanks again. (] (]) 03:23, 14 December 2012 (UTC))
			== PD socking ==
	::Hello. Thank you for your answer, I appreciate it. It would be nice if you could put the deleted material on my userpage, so when more information will be available I will add it. And I will ask somebody if there is enough material to post it. Thanks again. (] (]) 15:28, 8 November 2010 (UTC))
			] (]) 17:56, 23 March 2013 (UTC)]]
			Elen, over a year ago you courtesy blanked and protected the pages of PD, and deleted the sockpuppet categories. This was done with the understanding that he would stop all socking. See e.g. , where you promised that " The person behind all the accounts has agreed to stop entirely all attempts to edit Misplaced Pages - if he doesn't I'll put the main pages back myself, with added vim." He has since socked quite a few times, the latest one apparently being ]. Could you please unblank / undelete all his pages and the sock cats, so that the inevitable future unban discussions get the full picture instead of the courtesy blanked one? Thanks! ] (]) 11:01, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
			: I was alerted to Hestiae as you posted this. I'm considering whether to restore the deleted pages immediately or, as you say, when there is an unban request, but if anyone at SPI need's 'em now, they can have them. --] (]) 14:39, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
			::Considering that even today he was socking (]), I have undeleted and unblanked all relevant pages and recreated the sock cats. Feel free to "add vim" wherever you see fit. ] (]) 16:01, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
	:::{{tps}}{{spaces|1}}Manwith1plan, it would probably be best if Elen ] the article for you rather than putting it on your userpage. The ] policy doesn’t really permit articles on userpages. The preferred solution is ], perhaps with <code><nowiki>__NOINDEX__</nowiki></code> and a {{tl|Userspace draft}} template at the top. Thanks! — ''']]''' 19:15, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
	:::: Now at ]. Userpage was a typo for userspace. "Festina lente, as we say to each other litely at brake" (Molesworth) --] (]) 21:07, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
	::::: Thanks a lot! (] (]) 12:02, 9 November 2010 (UTC))
			== Ombudsman commission ==
	== Irrelevant thread at ] ==
			Hi, I contact you as you took part in the discussion on Penyulap's talk page concerning the Ombudsman committee matter. I've started some proposals and discussion on meta about how best to reform the OC to fix the issues it currently has and I would be very grateful if you could drop by and voice your opinion at ]. <i><b>] <sup><small>]</small></sup></b></i> 12:19, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
	Just felt I should let you know I removed the thread at ] dealing with a content dispute as it's irrelevant to the page, and didn't belong on AN or ANI either. Ordinarily I'd move it to a more suitable venue, but in this case I think the user probably needs to rephrase it and discuss it on the article's talk page. I thought I'd let you know as removing the thread also meant removing your reply; if you can think of a suitable venue for the thread I have no objection to it being restored elsewhere. <span id="sig" style="background:#FFFFC0">''']''' </font>]]</span> 16:03, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
	:No worries. Back to the talkpage was the only place I could think of, and they don't want him back there anyway. Chap has a severe case of selective deafness. --] (]) 16:09, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
	== Just a note ==		== A barnstar for you! ==
			{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
	I laid out everything at the start. Beyond that "an invalid claim of fair use constitutes copyright infringement." Period. Very simple and very clear. F9 is about copyright violations. At this stage if everyone really knew/understood the source policies the discussion would not be taking place at all. ] (]) 19:50, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
			|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ]
	:No, as I've explained, while an invalid claim of fair use under US law would be a copyright infringement, a faulty FUR is not necessarily a copyright infringement as Misplaced Pages standards are a great deal higher than US law, and use of the image may well be perfectly acceptable in US law. --] (]) 19:59, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
			|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The Special Barnstar'''
	::Than you are misreading/misunderstanding Wikiepdia Policy. I will ask you directly - what part of ''Unauthorized use of copyrighted material under an invalid claim of fair use constitutes copyright infringement and is illegal. Media which are mistagged as fair use or are a flagrant copyright violation can be removed on sight.'' is not clear to you? (EDIT) Or the clarifier for material taken form commercial content providers "must only be used in a transformative nature"? They go hand in hand. ] (]) 20:03, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
			|-
	:::Soundvisions, Misplaced Pages policy does not trump US law. US law says
			|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Dear Elen, I just want to say Thank you for being there to help people and being one of the best Arb's ever! Your Positive dedication and Priceless contributions are a big part of what makes Misplaced Pages more enjoyable and easy to use for all ~ For now, all I can say is "Keep It Up" :-) ''] ]'' 19:17, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
	§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use40
			|}
			<font color="Fuchsia">blushes</font> --] (]) 00:49, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
			:'''Support''' the barnstar, all of it. Thank you, Elen for the blushing colour! I could have used it twice, and ] ;) --] (]) 07:08, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
			== Category Freemasons Proposed Deletions ==
	Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —
			Hi, as you were a contributor to a ] on the Freemasons category there is ]. ] (]) 16:55, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
	(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
			== Sorry to see... ==
	(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
			Sorry that you're not there, Elen, as I certainly voted for you. You have always talked a lot of sense. Who will keep the "big boys" in check now, I wonder? But enjoy your break from all the grief. Regards. ] (]) 19:59, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
	(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
			*Sad for us, happy for you, Elen. --] (]) 20:17, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
			Yeah, I might even get to y'know...edit some articles :) ] (]) 20:53, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
			<div style="border-style:solid; border-color:#000066; background-color:#DDEEFF; border-width:1px; text-align:left; padding:8px;" class="plainlinks">]
			<div style="float: right; margin-left: 1em; width: 132px;">
			] Wikipedians also recommend ] with tea.
			</div>
			] (]) has given you ]. Tea promotes ] and hopefully this has made your day ever so slightly better. ]
	(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
			Spread the WikiLove by giving someone else a tea, especially if it is someone you have had disagreements with in the past or someone putting up with some stick at this time. Enjoy! <br />
	The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.
			Spread the lovely, warm, refreshing goodness of tea by adding {{tls|wikitea}} to their talk page with a friendly message.
	As you can see, it is a lot less specific that Misplaced Pages's NFCC. Failing to meet all the NFCC requirements may constitute a copyright infringement, but then again it may not. It's way less clear cut than claiming that I took that publicity shot of Britney.] (]) 20:27, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
			{{-}}
			</div><!-- Template:wikitea -->
			Most welcome, thank you :) ] (]) 20:53, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
			I try as much as possible to avoid the underside of Wiki (drama boards and such), but I did appreciate your willingness to stand up for what you thought was right regarding the whole mailing list issue. You had my vote...guess it wasn't enough, though. ]] 21:24, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
	:Elen, I did not ask you to quote US Copyright law or summarize it. (<= Joking) Go back and read what I have said, and I am extremely well informed about the US copyright law and no where did I say that Misplaced Pages trumps the law. In fact it backs up what I said *and* backs up Misplaced Pages policy. For commercial content of *any kind* the key section that relates is "the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work." How that translates to Misplaced Pages is ] - "Respect for commercial opportunities." In the section of the discussion that you complained about that I removed I has a link to: . It contains some plain English wordings that are important such as: "When it is impracticable to obtain permission, use of copyrighted material should be avoided unless the doctrine of fair use would clearly apply to the situation." Translate that to ] and than further to ]. And that is overlooked at Misplaced Pages as it relates to the types of visual material being discussed. (As I did pointed out in my removed comments - text does not seems to have nearly the amount of fair use discussions) We are discussing a type of image that is "narrow in scope" and it already fairly well defined at Misplaced Pages - over and over again. On Misplaced Pages does use of an image from a commercial content provider meet all 10 of the criteria for fair use as defined by Misplaced Pages? Unless it is being used in a transformative nature than it does not. It fits into the copyright violation wording because of the policy that originally existed, which was based on copyright law. ] (]) 21:08, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
	::Actually I agree with what you say - and apologies again for being so crabby earlier. I've put a new suggestion at CSD talk for what to go in F7, feel free to refactor as you see fit. ] (]) 22:00, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
	:::I put up the suggestions in a new header/sub section. See what you think. ] (]) 22:57, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
			:I echo the sentiments of the above. Still, bravely done under trying circumstances.--] (]) 21:30, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
	== "Final Warning"?????? ==
			::Hugs to you; I'd give you another Pony, but for most people, one is enough! ]<sup>]</sup> 21:40, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
	I supposed that means that there were supposed to be others?
			== Goodness ==
	And that you are asserting without cause that something violates this policy? Everything I've put in has been sourced. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 22:25, 5 November 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
	== Thank you ==
			|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ]
	I am very far behind on many thanks, but much appreciated. ] (]) 23:49, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
			|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''Barnstar of phronesis'''
	:You are welcome. I could not believe it when I saw that he had done it again. Even if he reverted himself, the question has to be why he even thought about doing it in the first place. --] (]) 23:52, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
			|-
			|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Thanking your for your wisdom, decisiveness, and kindness. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 20:34, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
			|}
			I am truly honoured. ] (]) 20:58, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
	== ] ==
			== I don't care ==
	Hiyas Elen,
			You know, you could've just not run instead of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory with the arbcom-l screwup? Regardless, my respect for the hard work, insight and good judgement you've added to the committee the past couple years remains unchanged. <small>]</small> 20:41, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
	I just blocked the above user on the basis of it being a suspected impersonation attempt. Still, i was wondering if the account might be made by you, for editing on insecure networks or something alike (The name could be read as a joke for that purpose). If the account was actually you, do feel free to unblock the account, and accept my apologies for the incorrect block. ]</font><sup> (],])</sup> 15:50, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
			:Oh I don't know. I think it's started some interesting threads. Be interesting to see what comes from it. --] (]) 21:00, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
	:Soon to be followed by ]. Or is that too long? ]] 20:04, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
	::ROFL! I feel that one needs an animated gif :) --] (]) 20:10, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
	::: Good to see it is actually you - when the name popped up i couldn't help but smile at it, since the purpose of the account could be a funny pun on your regular name (And frankly, it would have been a waste if a troll would have come up with it). Still, i didn't want to risk it being a troll and figured that if it was you i could always unblock you later on. Good to see you already took care of that part, and i'm glad that you don't mind the block. Either way, happy editing, but mind the cars! :) ]</font><sup> (],])</sup> 20:46, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
	:::: Yeah, no worries at all :) --] (]) 21:00, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
			== Re: Congratulations ==
	Have a look at {{user|SandySucks}} !! Isn't Wiki fun :) Not to worry-- I realize many won't read evidence, pile on old grudges, grind axes ... typical DR on Wiki. But we have higher venues for admin abuse of tools in the event RFC/U isn't useful; I sure hope we don't have to end up there over such a silly thing. Best, ] (]) 20:40, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
			I should be doing the congratulations, depending on how you look at it :) It has been a pleasure serving with you; hopefully we'll see
	== Re. ] comment ==
			Each other on wiki in less fraught circumstances. ]<sup><small>(])</small></sup> 21:05, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
			:I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you for your two years of service as an arbitrator, not to mention all your other service, and your various forms of future service. Regards, ] (]) 21:35, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
			:Regardless of what may have happened since November, you dedicated two years to the most thankless and shitty job there is for Misplaced Pages's sake. That deserves sincere thanks and accolades. &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 22:11, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
			==Thanks==
	With the unblock request for Kalajan, you commented on my CU note. I don't particualirlly get what you were trying to say. On the posts he had made with his talkpage, yes, it would give an IP address, and a CU could check that to see if there are any accounts that directly match his IP/range and user agent. But that doesn't include other user agents/IP ranges that would be stale now. Especially if the user has moved. At original, I forgot about the UserTP, my bad. It is possible to find socks, just might not be hitting all the ranges (or proxies) and since such little socking was found originally, we could add a little ] to the situation. -- ]]]</font></font></font> 18:31, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
	:You got what I meant - if anyone was bothered, a CU could determine whether he was making any other edits from his current IP. --] (]) 19:57, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
			Thanks for your good work on ArbCom. Losing elections sucks, but you can take solace that you received the 4th most "For" votes of that big slate. Good luck with your future endeavors on WP now that you're free at last... ] (]) 21:33, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
	== Thank you ==
			:I'd like to thank you too Elen. I hope you can be free now, and dedicate yourself to other endeavours :) — ]] 21:34, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
			:I'm sorry to see you weren't reelected. I respect your great ability to cut through to the heart of things. Frankly, I feel the chaos and attacks that that developed in regards to both your and Jclemens actions and which may have influenced this election to be a disappointing sign in Misplaced Pages's progress or lack of it. Thank you for all of your hard work and best wishes.(] (]) 23:10, 18 December 2012 (UTC))
	Thank you for the sentiments you expressed on the administrators noticeboard about the on-going controversy surrounding plagiarism issues. I don't want to personalize the discussion, but I do feel this needs a ''thorough'' airing so that the community feels comfortable. Best, ] (]) 03:00, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
	:Thanks. I do think it's a shame the person concerned left, but (on no evidence except that it otherwise seems a terrible overreaction) I guess there may have been other stuff going off at the same time. But it has been repeatedly said that he was prone to plagiarism, and plagiarism is an issue for the whole project. Some of the reactions on all sides have been just ridiculous. --] (]) 21:13, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
	::I completely agree, and that's why I've tried to stay clear of the scrum, save one posting on the (since deleted) user page of the individual who left. At the same time, this discussion goes to the heart of this project, and the fact that such an important discussion has now become a political football is unfortunate. But just as in journalism, the moment the public begins to feel that plagiarism is common here, the minute wikipedia loses all credibility. There must be a zero-tolerance policy for it, as I can see you agree. Thanks again for your comments on the board, and if there's anything I can do to be of service, please don't hesitate to let me know. (I do tend to stay away from heated discussions involving personalities, but this issue is paramount.) ] (]) 23:45, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
	:::Oh, and congratulations on your recent election. :-) ] (]) 23:48, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
	:::: Thank you. Yes, I usually try to stay out of the scrums as well (I don't mind editors arguing over whether to include something in an article, but the political stuff.....) but as you say, this is important. --] (]) 00:00, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
	::::: Me too, I generally steer clear of the political scrums. But the future of this enterprise depends on folks understanding sourcing and copyright issues. While new editors might need education along these lines, it's imperative that the top ranks of this place, including administrators and crats, have a firm grasp on these issues. That's what's so worrisome about this latest episode. I'm not calling for some sort of public execution, as some folks seem to be doing. But I would like a ''thorough'' airing of this episode in ''full public view'', and with some measures put in place to prevent a reprise. The behind-the-scenes scrambling over the latest episode, worthy of some Watergate shenanigans, is an embarrassment to wikipedia. Surely we can, and must, do better. ] (]) 04:08, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
			*It's no secret that I supported you, and will continue to do so in any way I can. Since you finally have an opportunity to work in a drama free environment, consider visiting (or joining us) at ]. It is a very laid back group that just tries to find non-contentious ways to make the place a little better. It's nice to just help people or bounce around ideas with optimistic people every now and then. ] - ] ] <small><b>]</b></small> 03:28, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
	== Question on Userspace Drafts ==
			*My support was evident, and it's too bad you lost. Well, try again next year. I guess the ArbCom mailing list ordeal made you have less support. ~~]]~~ → <small><span class="nowrap">]</span></small> 22:17, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
			*You had a good run. I'm happy you didn't resign and withdraw your application for these elections though, even though there were people wanting you to. The funny thing about being an arb though, is that the majority of WP doesn't know the comittee exists, except for the minority, who are usually those who participate in the WP namespace a bunch. For the rest of them, they just want Misplaced Pages to keep functioning. And I think during your time as Arb, you've done a great job at that. Best and maybe we can work on some getting some pages up to FA status in the future? --]] 23:59, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
	Hi Elen of/on the Roads who's hopefully keeping an eye out for passing trucks, ;-)
	I was wondering if you could take a look at this for me. It '''was''' an article on a notable company (possibly starting on the missing IBM Printing Systems Division article) that was turned into an advert during/after Ricoh's completed buyout (dunno by who). It "failed" AfD and I had it userfied so I can fix it (Yay! Finally an area and article I've got some expertise on to write about!).
			* Thanks indeed. Appropriate to see so many people lining up to entice you towards new projects. <span style="padding:2px;background-color:white;color:#666;">&ndash;&nbsp;]]</span> 02:42, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
	So, my question is, should/could I remove the advert tag? It will be a while before I can dig up all the relevant history and technological innovations, especially as (a) IBM has been purging a lot of stuff lately (and a lot of related news items seem to be dead links), (b) I'm having difficulty in a few areas such as finding the linkages between IBM and Xerox (a portion of the Xerox DocuPrint line are, or are based on the IBM/now Ricoh InfoPrint line - in areas that were industry firsts for IBM/InfoPrint/Ricoh). Thus, my fear is, with a lot of work ahead of me, that with the tag in place, it's going to be AfD'd or speedied before I get around to finishing it.
			== Please accept this ==
	I have taken the initiative of tagging it <nowiki>{{Userspace draft}} and {{underconstruction}}</nowiki> (with comment), but wasn't sure if leaving the advert tag left it on some list someplace thus causing people added work of going to it and realizing it should be left for now. Your insight would be appreciated. Best, Robert <small>] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></small> 03:58, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
	:Tags and cats should be removed in userspace, also any fair-use images. I've removed tags and cats could you check if the logo is PD or fair use and remove temporarily if fair use.--] (]) 11:36, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
	::Thanks for the assist with that. And no, the image is not PD - I actually uploaded it. So, if I am understanding correctly, I should remove it (and get it deleted as there is no "Fair Use" if there's no use at all), finish the article, and then re-upload when it's back in articlespace?
	::Thanks again! -Rob <small>] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></small> 15:52, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
	:::Just ship it out of the article. If someone deletes it as an orphan then you'll have to reupload it. ] (]) 18:43, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
	::::Ooops... already Speedied it (Criteria: F5). I'm pretty picky on copyvio/fair use things, so I decided to err on the side of caution. Thanks, Rob <small>] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></small> 18:54, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
	::::: no worries. Its the right thing to do ] (]) 21:13, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
			{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
	== ''The Signpost'': 8 November 2010 ==
			|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | ]
			|rowspan="2" |
			|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''Home-Made Barnstar'''
			|-
			|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | You showed honour and integrity in how you dealt with the whole "civility" shitburst. Just as my confidence in Arbcom reached an all-time low, you were there to shore it up. I am sorry you are leaving the ] but perhaps you are better off out of it. Best wishes, and thanks for being you. ] (]) 21:50, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
			|}
			== Thanks ==
			{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
			|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ]
			|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''Thanks'''
			|-
			|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Thanks for all your hard work, ] (]) 23:39, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
			|}
			== Been expecting something like this ==
			- although it's an odd one to pick, as there's a massive discussion between myself and Rich that follows the link, and it's clear it's not a personal attack, even though I'll hold my hands up and say for the umpteenth time it was thoughtlessly offensive to people with OCD.
			Ex Arbs are normally allowed to retain the checkuser bit - I'm waiting for her to start demanding that be removed as well, plus I expect my admin tools, and a siteban as a final outcome :) Ah, happy days. --] (]) 13:54, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
			:Be the ]. Be like ] (movie version) -- ]. <small>]</small> 14:05, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
			:Elen, it (what you said) is clearly not a personal attack to you (I.e. in your view), because you wrote it (and know what you meant to convey). As a (probably) non-ASD person who knows you reasonably well I know you didn't mean ill by it. But to an outside observer it can be interpreted in no other way, unless as a serious face-value comment which would be bad for other reasons.
			:But Sandy is not attacking you, despite the fact that you understandably may feel attacked. She is saying, "this is a thing Arbs should not do, yet one did and nothing was done - can we handle this type of thing better? why was nothing done? should there be a policy on this?" and so forth.
			:Had she said "a random arbitrator said..." it might have felt less personal. I really doubt that she is "after your checkuser bit" - even though I have had issues with some of the cases you have checkusered, I think that it is a role you perform well and are well suited to, and I don't hear anyone saying to the contrary. '']&nbsp;]'', <small>16:32, 19 December 2012 (UTC).</small><br />
			:: Rich, I meant - it wasn't intended as a personal attack on you. SandyGeorgia has been clear all along in her personal feelings about me, hence I said I was expecting something like this. She has already been among those asking for removal of the Checkuser bit. I was under no illusion that this was going to go away after the election.
			::: I understood what you said, I've added a parenthetical or three to my previous posting to clarify it. I am though, confused by your second point. If she has already asked for your CU bit to be removed, I don't see how you are "waiting for her to demand". As to things "going away" I have been pursued by more or less the same handful of people for over two years now, with occasional help from outsiders, either well meaning, like yourself, or with a long running dispute over something they ]. Such things never truly go away once they have gone past a certain point. There is no way I can "legally" edit on Misplaced Pages at the moment, I have even broken Arbcom restrictions writing this. But <meh> I am not going to abandon those who need me, even if I am substantively retired from en: - and effectively have been for many months. I expect that regardless of any such outcome you will continue to do your best to contribute to the project, and I would wholeheartedly recommend the Editor retention programme Dennis mentions, as a real key initiative, potentially, which requires more application of brainpower and experience than it is getting at the moment. '']&nbsp;]'', <small>17:26, 19 December 2012 (UTC).</small><br />
			::::Based on support votes alone, it looks as if Elen would have come in 4th. Negative voting is a ]. Systems that effectively give some users (who use negative votes) many times the number of votes that others (who use only positive votes) get, are generally considered unconstitutional. ] (]) 18:01, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
			:::::Well, Elen, ya shoulda been elected, but now that I've gotten myself on Sandy's Shit List too, I guess at least I'm in good company! ]<sup>]</sup> 18:58, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
			::::::<small> I'd guess that likely puts us in a majority here on wiki. — <small><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding:1px;"><b>]</b> : ]</span></small> 21:12, 19 December 2012 (UTC) </small>
			:::::Unconstitutional? Strange word to use, perhaps you mean unfair. If so then you should bear in mind that "not using negative votes" is a choice, just as is "only voting for the same number as there are vacancies". All eligible voters have the same votes available, so, as far as that goes, I see no unfairness. And while "controversial figures" are the lifeblood of the community, there is good reason not to appoint them to certain posts where the decisions require the confidence of the community. If, however, you wish to change the voting system I suggest you start an RFC for 2013 now. Doubtless a good case could be made for some form of improvement. '']&nbsp;]'', <small>19:39, 19 December 2012 (UTC).</small><br />
			I apologise to all for this bit of a grizzle. Rich and others are right, there are more constructive things to be going at :)] (]) 21:02, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
			:You are more gracious than I would be, Elen. But then, maybe you are tasting the sweetness of freedom from Arbcom, where once again someone is trying to ban Malleus... ]<sup>]</sup> 22:53, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
			== ''The Signpost'': 17 December 2012 ==
	<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">		<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
	{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2010-11-08}}		{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2012-12-17}}
	</div><!--Volume 6, Issue 45-->		</div><!--Volume 8, Issue 51-->
	<div style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">''']''' &middot; ] &middot; ] &middot; ] (]) 16:26, 9 November 2010 (UTC)</div>		<div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">
			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 23:09, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
			</div>
	<!-- EdwardsBot 0086 -->		<!-- EdwardsBot 0421 -->
	==Talkback==
	{{talkback|Triwbe|ts=21:33, 9 November 2010 (UTC)}}
	== ] ==		== Talk page discussions ==
			I'd like to restore ]'s talk page access so they can participate in the active discussion there about the ombudsman commission, currently a game of telephone. May I take it from your earlier comments there you'd be fine with that? Regards, <span style="padding:2px;background-color:white;color:#666;">&ndash;&nbsp;]]</span> 02:45, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
			:Why is the discussion not taking place on Meta? That is, after all, where the Ombudsman commission is headquartered. With SUL, the account is already "created" there. In fact, I'll go further. Why is the Ombudsman commission looking to discuss the use of privacy-related tools in a public forum? ] (]) 04:01, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
			::As to your second question, Penyulap has admirably posted the request openly, and equally admirably requested an open response. '']&nbsp;]'', <small>13:52, 20 December 2012 (UTC).</small><br />
			:It actually is: ] --''']]]''' 04:14, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
			::] has an account with the same name on Meta, which has been active there and is not blocked. They are already participating in a discussion about the Ombudsman commission at ]. ] (]) 04:41, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
			:Hi SJ. As others have said, Penyulap can take part in that discussion as they are not blocked on meta, and it (not their talkpage) is where the discussion needs to take place to have any impact (I doubt if even FloNight has Peny's talkpage on her watchlist). ] (]) 11:38, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
			{{collapse top|collapse=no|sorry Rich, I do this rarely, but I'm getting sick of your continuous barracking on behalf of Penyulap}}
			::FloNight did, I believe, respond on Penyulaps's talk page, that, however, is an irrelevance wrapped in misdirection within in a red herring.
			::The talk page access,was last blocked by Courcelles, the checkuser that Pen had complained about, ''after''he had made the complaint. As such the talk page block should not be allowed to stand.
			::Were the talk page block clearly justified - say Pen had persistently posted frivolous unblock requests, then ''at the very least'' another admin should have reblocked - and ''at the very least'' courcelles, if not pre-empted should have unblocked. As far as I can see the response is:
			::
			::* Courcelles does not respond, merely deleting or archiving any posts to his talk page
			::* The Arbitration committee, who I emailed over this matter have failed to respond (and it took Elen to actually forward the email, the clerks had ignored it) to my email, even to say they are doing nothing. (Again I asked for a response even if it was "we are not acting", and Elen urged them to respond.)
			::* Committee members seem to "circle the wagons" to support Courcelles.
			::* Elen refuses to say whether she felt "trolled" on Penyulap's talk page or not. Clearly this is difficult for her, because she was dishing out far worse than she was receiving, so saying yes makes her look bad, and promotes the question "Why did she not simply walk away?" , whereas saying no, to some extent lands Courcelles in it.
			::To me the biggest mystery is why Courcelles did not simply say, as he can even now "My bad" and self revert. No-one wishes to make a bigger thing of this than it is, which is why I tried to get ArbCom to explain to Courcelles what he seems to have trouble seeing (and when I met him he seemed very intelligent and generous hearted fellow, making it all the stranger).
	Thank you! <small><span style="border:1px solid #0000ff;padding:1px;">] : ] </span></small> 22:31, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
	::Thank you both... great example set by you both. <small>] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></small> 22:50, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
	::Thank you both. ] (]) 11:28, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
			::Let me make it clear, the above simply covers the abusive block that followed the checkuser complaint, not the checkuser action in itself, and the block that followed that, which are far more amenable to explanation as mistake.
	== "Needs to write a Featured Article" ==
			::I would urge any uninvolved admin to restore Penyulap's talk page access. If Elen feels she was trolled she is quite capable of either removing the talk page from her watchlist like a grown-up.
	Re , there is not a single person anywhere in that discussion suggesting that he "needs to write a Featured Article", and the last time I'm aware of anyone ''ever'' suggesting it was a throwaway comment by ]. In 2007. Please don't feed the "people who are concerned about a lack of content contributions insist on a Featured Article" strawman, which the Hugglers have recently been trying to make up as "proof" of how unreasonable the opposers at RFA are, unless you can actually find any evidence of anyone having made that demand in the last three years.&nbsp;–&nbsp;] 17:51, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
	: And we don't want them showing up at FAC in droves with ill-prepared nominations-- that's what we got back in the Mailer Diablo day, and it just increases the reviewer load. And some of the RFA candidates I've seen lately shouldn't be trying to write FAs anyway :) Best, ] (]) 17:54, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
	Iridescent, do you really want me to provide the diffs. Because I will, quite cheerfully. And I agree with Sandy, it really is foolish advice whenever someone gives it. --] (]) 17:58, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
			::'']&nbsp;]'', <small>13:52, 20 December 2012 (UTC).</small><br />
	:Go for it; if you can find a credible "oppose, no Featured Articles". To get you started, .&nbsp;–&nbsp;] 18:04, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
			{{Collapse bottom}}
	::Where did I ever say I could source that exact phrase. And who was talking about credibility. I note that even you referred to the "must have 10 FAs" school in Thing's RfA. Are you going to go away and find sources to back up your statement :). Or would it be better to leave it as an armwave response to this kind of opinion which was made at my RfA (perfectly valid opinion, not criticising it, but he does mention involvement with GA/FA), and concur with Sandy that actually we don't want to make people believe they have to contribute at that level if they can't do it, but we do want to encourage them to contribute to the content of the encyclopaedia as they feel comfortable - even if it's only finding proper online sources for 'popular culture' type topics. --] (]) 18:17, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
			*Follow up for SJ - I don't personally have a problem what you do with Peny's talkpage, but I'm not the one who removed access. Penyulap is very difficult to understand sometimes. I think this does come across to some people as trolling. You can see the whole conversation - at the start I did think Peny was being deliberately obtuse about creating other accounts because of the way he said it. It was only as the conversation went on that it occurred to me that maybe we were looking at a 'feature' of the mediawiki interface, and Peny wasn't being deliberately obtuse at all, just upset.] (]) 14:43, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
	:::That part of my cut-and-paste boilerplate about "the 10 FAs school" was written back when was still with us (and you're right, does need updating to reflect its deletion). I'm looking for one example of someone, more recently than 2007, saying "I won't support unless you've written a Featured Article", or any form of words to that effect. If you're alleging that someone is saying "needs to write a Featured Article", when there's no evidence I can see of anyone ever saying that, the onus is on you to demonstrate it. David Fuchs's "audited content" piece is expressly not about FAs, and says as much—he's talking about any process which involves other people looking over what you've written, be it DYK, peer review, GAN, FAC, even such esoterica as Featured Portals or Valued Pictures, and is looking expressly for evidence of collaboration and cooperation with other users.&nbsp;–&nbsp;] 18:27, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
			*:: Thank you for the followup. I have restored his talkpage access. I have the same impression of his method of communicating.
	::::No, honestly pet. I made a throwaway remark , and you've somehow read it as me making some very specific allegation. All this 2007 stuff is added by you - it's all very well you saying it was 'cut and paste boilerplate', but you added it to someone's RfA two weeks ago, not two years ago. David's not necessarily meaning that admins need to write FAs, just that they need to be involved in the FA creation process, but people are reading it as 'must create GAs', 'must create FAs'. What this gives the poor young editors (they do seem to me to be young as well as new) applying for adminship is a feeling that you have to have 10FAs - exactly as you said. Look above - I said I wouldn't run for admin because people would say I hadn't written 10FAs. It's the sort of thing people feel that people are saying. Look at what happened with ] - of course the silly girl shouldn't have created content by pasting in chunks of copyright material, but it was in response to her perception that she needed to have quality content.] (]) 21:56, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
			*:: To the other comments above: yes, the thread about how to fix the Ombudsman Commission belongs on Meta. And others who do not frequent meta are having a discussion on his talkpage that relates to en:wp, which is normal. Meta is not meant as a substitute for homewiki talkpage access (even if sometimes used that way!). <span style="padding:2px;background-color:white;color:#666;">&ndash;&nbsp;]]</span> 22:43, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
			** SJ already asked Courcelles. Sadly no cooperation was forthcoming. And you are doubtless right that supporting Penyulap is a very bad idea, especially against Arbitrators who I may one day wish to appeal to. Nonetheless I made it clear in my retirement posting that I would continue to attempt to right this particular wrong, and I am not in the habit of going back on my word. Courcelles and Arbcom were both given opportunities to sort this out previously, Courcelles deleted my posts, Arbcom (despite you good offices, for which thanks) never had the courtesy to reply to me. Hardly reassuring behaviour. '']&nbsp;]'', <small>17:52, 20 December 2012 (UTC).</small><br />
			{{you've got mail}}
	== attack accusation ==
			== Merry Christmas! ==
	*yes im attacking those editors but they are also attacking me. especially literalka. why didnt he get a warning? if you read youll see he taunts others too. this is a lie and he accuses me of lieing a lot he wont admit he remove my text from page here it all start because he vandal my page here with no explanation until i ask ] (]) 00:31, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
			<div style="border-style:solid; border-color:red; background-color:fff; border-width:2px; text-align:left; padding:8px;" class="plainlinks">]
	**more accusation and also ask me to repeat sexual material that vandal post to my web page ] (]) 00:34, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
	*michaeldsuarez was ask to stay away me and me stay away from him and i didnt mention him after this but he follow me onto tnxman page and still follow my edits and talk about me ] (]) 00:31, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
			— ]] is wishing you a ] ]! This greeting (and season) promotes ] and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a ], whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Happy New Year! <br />
	*ill stay away but i think its unfair because im new and they experience and picking on me because i nominate redirect to their article for deletion. they even canvas. i think probably after threat i stay away from wikipedia totally ] (]) 00:31, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
			<i>Spread the cheer by adding {{tls|Xmas2}} to their talk page with a friendly message.</i>
	:Because it is possible that this problem all arises from English not being your first language, I will say this one last time.
			</div> — ]] 05:46, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
	# LiteralKa has not done anything that warrants a warning. He is entirely entitled to use the language that you object to - it is not directed at you.
	# Neither Michaeldsuarez nor LiteralKa posted that IP message on your talkpage. If you keep on saying that they did, you are the one that will get into trouble for making false allegations.
	# Nor are they stalking you or hounding you. You keep posting about them, that is why they are monitoring your posts, as they are entitled to do.
			==Christmas wham! crunch! urkk!==
	I recommend you go and edit in a different part of the encyclopaedia for a while. If you stop saying anything about them, they will not have any reason to keep watching your edits. ] (]) 00:42, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
			]
			Bringing giftwrapped for little nominator, omnomnom! Careful you don't get in the way of my cool santa hat morning star, seasonal replacement for biting! Just to keep everybody on their toes! ] '']'' 23:30, 23 December 2012 (UTC).
			{{-}}
			== Merry Christmas! ==
	* sorry not directed at me? but i dont want more threat and i cant stop it so yes i stop editing. ] (]) 01:07, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
			<div style="border-style:solid; border-color:red; background-color:fff; border-width:2px; text-align:left; padding:8px;" class="plainlinks">]
	== sorry ==
	i want to get outside people to delete discussion nonpartisan how do i do it thanks ] (]) 01:15, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
	:There are plenty of people involved in the discussion. It is not partisan. It just does not support your view that the redirect should be deleted. You will have to accept this - it is how consensus on Misplaced Pages works.--] (]) 01:22, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
	::everyone in discussion was invited by michaeldsuarez . not everyone who vote but everyone in discuss ] (]) 01:24, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
			''] ]'' is wishing you a ] ]! This greeting (and season) promotes ] and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a ], whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Happy New Year! <br />
	==Mynamismik==
	This is the second time you have turned down my vandalism report against Mynamismik. I see you have turned down other vandalism reports too. If you don't want to do the job, please just turn in the bit. We don't need more admins sweeping the trolls under the rug until they become another Grawp. Mynamismik is troll, plain and simple. He isn't here to edit constructively if you look at his edits. I wouldn't be posting him to AIV if I didn't think there was a problem. So....could we ''please'' get this taken care of? - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 02:44, 12 November 2010 (UTC)</small>
	:If you still think he is here for good, look at and maybe that will show you he isn't. Read them all and you will get the idea. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 03:06, 12 November 2010 (UTC)</small>
	::...and if that isn't enough. He went on a vandalism spree tonight, blanking pages, purposely adding content to others (like my userpages) and other vandalism. MuZemike blocked him for a week. This should show this guy is not here for constructive purposes. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 03:33, 12 November 2010 (UTC)</small>
	I can only go on what I can see when I pick up the report. At that point, his last half dozen edits to articles were not vandalism (I checked!!), and mussing up the hidden formating on your text page could have been the sort of markup fail I'm often guilty of. The other report I turned down, the reported IP had not edited since 24 September, so what am I going to block for? --] (]) 14:00, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
	:<nowiki>*pat on the back*</nowiki> No worries. We all want to believe that all users can be good, I even took a chance at being nice to that user, but it didn't work. It's OK, you made the right move and went with AGF. Last night I was mad, cause I didn't see the editor being blocked, but you were going by the rules and ''that'' ''is'' a good quality for an admin, especially one that extends AGF to all. Hopefully you don't lose that. We need more like you and Acroterion around here to give 110% of AGF to all. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 23:40, 12 November 2010 (UTC)</small>
			''Spread the cheer by adding {{tls|Xmas2}} to their talk page with a friendly message.''
	==Your help with that CCI...==
			</div>
	...is very much appreciated. :) FWIW, I've found which suggests that the NYT may be exaggerating their copyright renewal, but not by much. --] <sup>]</sup> 23:34, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
			Hey Elen! Wishing you a very Happy Merry Christmas :) ''] ]'' 12:26, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
	:Not by much indeed - I would suspect that the 1923-28 renewal is in the archive somewhere but has been missed, as they seem to have renewed everything else. I'll drop that onto RAN's page (if you haven't). --] (]) 23:42, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
			== Happy holidays ==
	== ''The Signpost'': 15 November 2010 ==
			<div style="border-style:solid; border-color:blue; background-color:AliceBlue; border-width:1px; text-align:left; padding:8px;" class="plainlinks">]
			Some Christmas traditions are very difficult to explain. Kind of like Misplaced Pages policies. </br></br>
			Wishing you and yours a joyous holiday season, and happiness, health and hopefulness in 2013. I trust you'll enjoy this little token, a favourite performance of , for your holiday amusement. For those of a more traditional inclination, I offer this rendition of my favourite . </br> Best, ] (]) 15:31, 25 December 2012 (UTC) </br></br></br></div>
			== ''The Signpost'': 24 December 2012 ==
	<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">		<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
	{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2010-11-15}}		{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2012-12-24}}
	</div><!--Volume 6, Issue 46-->		</div><!--Volume 8, Issue 52-->
	<div style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">''']''' &middot; ] &middot; ] &middot; ] (]) 00:17, 16 November 2010 (UTC)</div>		<div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">
			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 06:20, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
			</div>
	<!-- EdwardsBot 0087 -->		<!-- EdwardsBot 0424 -->
			== Early greetings for the new year ==
	== Curious ==
			<center>
	Your comment there brings up much the same concerns as the ANI comment I mentioned. Do you really not see, even in hindsight, how your comment on ANI was less than ideal? ] (]) 04:08, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
			{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
	:I'm curious also. I do genuinely believe your behaviour on the ani thread did have an aspect that was problematic - you got locked into some strange cycle in which you thought you had already said things, and you kept insisting that you'd fixed something that other people were saying was broken. The honest truth appears to be that you maintain a different view of what happened to that held by a number of the other participants, including myself. It used to be a frequent issue when responding to complainants that their view of what was going on failed to match that of others, or match the record, and one was always searching for ways to say that (as a previous head of revenues once wrote "mrs x complains that she made an arrangement in March to pay £60 per month, yet we have still issued a notice. what she has overlooked is that she never made any of the payments." Try to find a tactful way to say that!)
			|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ]
			|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | '''Best Wishes for a Happy New Year!'''<br>May 2013 bring you rewarding experiences and an abundance of everything you most treasure.<br>] (]) 16:57, 28 December 2012 (UTC)<br>
			<br><small>''], ], ], and ]'' (1532–34) by ]</small>
			|}
			</center>
			Strange how someone I consider a font of humane jollity could poll so divisively—a result that in no way reflects how helpful you are to this community. ] (]) 16:57, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
	:At the end of the day it doesn't much matter in this case, the key thing - the table formatting - got fixed in a way that works. However, I do understand that it has left you with a residual sense that somehow you were treated badly, which in these circumstances you do not really have an avenue to address. If you were making a complaint against my council, you'd get the opportunity to request that the matter was independently reviewed, but the Misplaced Pages community is not terribly tolerant of what it terms 'rehashing,' so there is no mechanism for that if the substance of the complaint is a one-off.
			== What would YOU call this one? ==
	:If it is any consolation (probably not) the speculation about "Netscape 2.0 on a 286" was not intended to be an insult - just in case you took it as such.--] (]) 16:29, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
	:: Elen, here I'm referring to ''your'' comment, which was condescending. I had already been through enough condescension from a user who not only insisted I was completely wrong, but even demanded I apologize. Ultimately, was your comment really helpful? What did it add to the discussion? If you didn't know the situation, rather than make an absurd assumption about an "old box", you might have asked. Did you? Did you even consider that there might be a problem, let alone AGF that a long-term user might be right? And I was correct on the technical issue. Sometimes, the majority is wrong; good leadership would have been to swim against that flow and correct the errors of the majority. And to your query about the head of revenues - sometimes the head of revenues should really be saying that "according to the current state of our records, we do not have a record of payments from mrs x being credited to the account of mrs x", because mrs x did pay but the payments were misapplied. I imagine that it would be frustrating for mrs x to try to deal with a system that can't conceive of that possibility, even as mrs x holds the cancelled cheques. ] (]) 10:54, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
	::: I understand that you continue to feel hard done by, but I'm not sure what you are looking for as an outcome here. I am sorry that the statement upset you as it has done, indeed, the whole incident clearly upset you, and you found it very difficult to participate in the dialogue. I do agree that practically everybody did express their exasperation towards you at some point, and you undoubtedly felt as if you were having to defend yourself rather than being able to explain the problem. However, if you look through that whole thread, it's fairly clear that you started out in good faith to try to fix a problem, but unfortunately <s>you 'fixed' it so it worked in your browser and ignored anyone who told you it wasn't working in other browsers</s>your fix was to strip out the functionality because you couldn't get it to work for you, you edit warred to keep your version, you issued civility warnings to those who disagreed with you - you even threatened to block one of them. Even if you can't see that as problematic behaviour, the other 10 or so people in the discussion all did, and I am not sure that anyone looking at that thread would see you as a victim. What would you see as a way forward? -- ] (]) 14:19, 18 November 2010 (UTC) (PS: In Mrs x's case, she really hadn't made any payments - misreceipts are always the first thing you look for, and I've searched enough suspense accounts in my time, but in her case she agreed immediately that she hadn't actually made any payments.)
	:::: "but unfortunately you 'fixed' it so it worked in your browser and ignored anyone who told you it wasn't working in other browsers" - That's incorrect. If you still don't get that point, which is rather central to the underlying dispute, it illustrates my point rather well. I also think you are somewhat mistaken on the behaviour issues, since you omit mentioning any misbehaviour by any other editor. What do I want out of this? I want you to recognize some ways your response was inappropriate, and try to avoid that in the future. ] (]) 14:31, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
	::::: OK, so in your opinion was it inappropriate because it was overly flippant (which is what I've been thinking) or because it was actually wrong, and if so, in what way. I would stand by the gist - a user's problems with a less used browser would not entitle them to unilaterally remove something that worked for everyone else (incidentally, I have refactored above, you are correct in that the action that caused everything to kick off was stripping out functionality that worked for everybody else, which caused RexxS to revert you, which was what you brought to ANI) but I do understand that during the course of the entire thing you felt that your position was not being understood, and I accept that this statement probably contributed to that feeling.] (]) 14:54, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
	:::::: No, my fix made the sorting work in Safari without apparently changing it for any other browser. (At least, I've not seen where anybody has said that it broke sorting in any other browser.) What "caused everything to kick off" was certain editors' removal of the fix and denials that there even might be a problem, coupled with condescending insults and demands. You could have said my removal of the sorting at that point was a "pointy" way to try to get them to see there was an issue. When I first brought up your diff on SG's page, you could have just said something to the effect "I'm sorry, I could see it was hurtful"; avoid calling people "pet", and maybe say you didn't examine the issue carefully before the ANI posting, and you would have had a stellar response to smooth over that ANI statement. From my perspective, the root of this is are edits in violation of various guidelines (centrally WP:CITE), which I opposed, and ended up indef blocked without talkpage access. I'm sure there are others who view this situation differently, but from my perspective, the administrator response has been somewhat inadequate and misplaced. ] (]) 15:12, 18 November 2010 (UTC) P.S., I have an experience with payments somewhat like your Mrs X case, except I did have the cancelled cheques. ] (]) 15:47, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
	::::::: OK, I can see how that incident pissed you off (incidentally, I've had the same thing happen to me, but with way more justification, see ]. Still annoying when you know there was a reason for it)- it would piss off even the most reasonable editor to have an account that had been editing away for ages called into question like that. And has coloured your view of things since - it seems to me as if you are taking things as slights that are not intended as such, and are assuming people know about this past history when they do not. I think in that light you are fated to get your corns trodden on from time to time - this is not a good thing, but I wouldn't know what to suggest as a way forward. ] (]) 16:04, 18 November 2010 (UTC) PS We had one chap who refused to put his a/c reference on the cheques, refused to send payment slips etc, and then complained every single time his payment ended up in suspense. What can you do?
	:::::::: Yep, that's it, some incident has just coloured my view, and it's all my mistake, like some chap who can't put an account reference on a cheque. You really want to be an arbitrator, eh? ] (]) 03:35, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
			Is ] called ], not ], ], ], no ] or ] or ]? Read down to the bottom and follow a few links to see how this volatile editor is being wound up. Find some excuse and try to ignore it! Yeah, I may be an IPSockpuppet (see your Wtshymanski complaint above, what was your first fucking clue?) but you're such a bitch and I still love you! Self indeffing now :) ] (]) 05:08, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
	==Darwinbish getting aggravated==
	]Jehochman is starting to get on my ]. Is little 'shonen becoming invisible or something? You want I send Darwinbish on another visit? ] | ] 00:10, 18 November 2010 (UTC).
	:Elen apologises to little 'shonen. Offers Darwinbish (ow! geddoff!) tasty treat - Hochman's leg perhaps? --] (]) 00:19, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
	::Seen Tex's new name for me? Little Ankle Biter, hehehe! Made handsome sig meself! Best coder in family! Only bishsig with contribs! ] ] ] 00:28, 18 November 2010 (UTC). (PS More cake! ''And'' Jehochman's leg!)
	::: Very nice sig. Darwinbish very clever to include contribs. Hope you enjoy red velvet cake breasticles.] (]) 00:41, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
	::::Those look delicious! I hope you clicked on the tits (a much vandalised article). Speaking of nice, get a load of , lol ! Poor little IPs trying to get their bearings... Made Bunchofgrapes laugh anyway. ] | ] 00:54, 18 November 2010 (UTC).
	::::: ROFL! And yes, I did have a look at the article - I have great tits (naturally....no, try again...) I have great tits living in my garden, although sadly I cannot put up a bird table due to having four cats of my own, and three visiting cats from nearby, who all sit at my windows and rattle their teeth when they see the garden birds. --] (]) 01:00, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
	::::::Well, if Darwinbish isn't too busy preparing the ground for her projected arbcom candidature, I can send her over to your house for a short visit. Those cats will never bother anybody again; they'll shiver and slink off if the birds so much as look at them. Hmmm — I wonder if ] could nominate the twins as a kind of double feature? They do sort of complement each other. But the true beauty would lie in Pod running under his artist name Little Stupid... ] | ] 02:28, 18 November 2010 (UTC).
	:::::::Ah, those were the days. But why don't you run - would it drive you too barkingly insane? ] (]) 23:13, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
	::::::::I will not identify to the Foundation, and I will not work that hard. Or, well, at all, if it comes to that. Those newborn socks just don't know what they'd be getting themselves into. But why don't ''you'' run, or are you going to stand on that chair for the rest of your wikilife? ] | ] 00:46, 19 November 2010 (UTC).
	::::::::: Gah! Last week I was a humble editor. What have I done.!! ] (]) 00:53, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
	== Email ==		== 2013 ==
			{| style="border: 2px solid red; background-color: #FFFAF0;"
	ping. -''']''' <sup><small>]</small></sup> 05:43, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
			|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | ]
			|rowspan="2" |
			|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" |'''Have an enjoyable ]!'''
			|-
			|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 2px solid green;" | '''Hello Elen of the Roads: Thanks for all of your contributions to Misplaced Pages, and have a happy and enjoyable ]!''' Cheers, <small><span style="font-family:arial;">]<sup>]</sup></span></small> 19:31, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
			<br><br>
			:<small>Send New Year cheer by adding {{tls|Happy New Year 2013}} to people's talk pages with a friendly message.</small>
			|}</div>{{-}}
			== Request assistance with Anonymous Editor ==
	{{YGM}}
			has been making a string of non-constructive edits to the project. After adding a non-notable uniquely named individual to various "People from ..." pages, edits were made to pages about a religion. First links to pages of things for sale from the uniquely named individual were added; after those edits were reverted, blanked the resources sections that contained links to books about the religion which appear on Amazon and WorldCat. Whatever you can do will be most gratefully appreciated. ] (]) 07:57, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
	== canvassing complaint ==
			== Edit stalking/repeated false vandalism accusations by User:Greaymarshess ==
	I object to your closing the complaint against DavidOaks. You asked me to provide a response in the complaint and then closed it before I could respond. No complaint was being made against the editors who were canvassed, only DavidOaks.
			Basically, the whole discussion is here ] now.] (]) 08:19, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
			== ''The Signpost'': 31 December 2012 ==
	Since no comments were made to my prior complaint, how was I to know what opinion was held or what information was wanted by the admins?
			<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
	The unacceptable implication of closing the report is that it would be perfectly fine for me to privately canvass linguistics editors to have them affect consensus on the talk page.
			{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2012-12-31}}
			</div><!--Volume 8, Issue 01-->
			<div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">
			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 05:43, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
			</div>
			<!-- EdwardsBot 0430 -->
			I assume you are the "Elen" User:Rich Farmbrough is referring to on my talk page @ ]. Any assistance would be appreciated. --'']] ]'' 02:46, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
	I request that you reopen it and allow other admins to comment. ] (]) 23:03, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
	:Do feel free to revert me - I'm not precious about it. The community will ultimately decide whether it wants to take any notice. I think it would actually be good if you posted a similar message on the talkpage of a few linguists - there are clearly two separate concepts packed up in here, and I wouldn't begin to speculate on how to pick 'em apart.--] (]) 23:11, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
	::BTW, it wasn't me that collapsed it. Looks like the community may have expressed its lack of interest. I can see it is frustrating for you, and honestly, I don't think there would be a problem asking for input on the linguistics side. --] (]) 23:17, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
			== Belated Happy New Year with a Toast! ==
			{|align="left" cellspacing="4" cellpadding="4" style="border: 2px solid #aaa; font-size: 90%; padding: 4px; margin: 0 1em; margin-center:0; background-color: #f9f9f9;clear:left;"
	:::Please understand that I find this extremely tedious. No accusation was being made against the people whom DavidOaks canvassed, and they were not notified since they were not discussed, only his diffs on their talkpages were posted by number and not by editor. I am not expecting any decision on ''content'' by admins. This is solely a matter of DavidOaks' behaviour, which I think is a rather clear cut violation of votestacking in intent, whether or not it has worked out in his favor.
			|-
			|'']
			|style="font-weight:bold; text-align:center;"|
			Here's a ] to the ]<br />
			Of those who edit ] near and far,<br />
			To a friend we send a message, "keep the data ]".<br />
			We drink to those who ],<br />
			And then they ] a vandal several dozen blows.<br />
			A toast to the host of those who boast, the ]!<br />
			- From {{subst:TheGeneralUser}}
			|-
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			|}
			{{clear}} {{WikiScotch|~'''''] ]'''''}} <div style="border-style:solid; border-color:gold; background-color:white; font color:gray; border-width:2px; text-align:left; padding:8px;" class="plainlinks">]
	:::I find ResidentAnthropolgist's accusation of gaming the system on my talk page disturbing, especially since he seems to feel targetted since he was one of the people who were canvassed. (He is the one who collapsed the discussion.) Do you believe I am required to notify these editors when no accusation against them is being made?
			~'''''] ]''''' — is wishing you a Happy New Year! This greeting (and season) promotes ] and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Happy New Year! <br />
	:::I request that you please restore the ANI discussion so I am not accused of wrongdoing and allow me to post the response to your question which I was composing when you closed the discussion. I will be quite happy to abide by the decision made by due process once I have been able to respond. ] (]) 23:39, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
	:::: As I said, I didn't collapse it. ] (]) 23:49, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
	:::: Oh and yes, you did need to notify all the editors you listed. ] (]) 23:51, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
			Spread the New Year cheer by adding {{tls|New Year 1}} to their talk page with a friendly message.
	:::::I am not asking you to uncollapse it. ResidentAnthropologist did that. But he advised that you marked it as resolved. I am asking that you reopen it. I'll be satisfied with whatever happens after I can answer your last question to me. ] (]) 00:14, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
	:::::: As I said, you are welcome to reopen it. It's only my take on the situation - ANI doesn't have a formal clerking process. If you think it warrants further discussion, you go ahead and reopen it. ] (]) 00:18, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
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	I am sorry to keep bothering you. Let me clarify. ResidentAnthropologist has already all but accused me of gaming the system on my talk page. I do not wish to open a third complaint - I want a chance to answer the question you posed me before you the last one. How would it look if I undid the edit you made myself? I am simply asking you to undo it yourself so there is no appearance of impropriety.] (]) 00:28, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
			A Very Happy (belated) New Year to you Elen! Enjoy the Whisky {{Smiley|shade}} ~'''''] ]''''' 05:24, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
	:I have reopened it, and again apologies about my caution. I did not intend it to come off as any sort of veiled threat] (]) 01:32, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
	::I have not at all felt threatened. ] (]) 05:00, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
			== Happy New Hot Cross Egg ==
	Elen, I have not mentioned anyone new, I don't think, but please let me know if you think I should notify anyone else of the canvassing complaint.] (]) 05:00, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
			Thanks everyone for the good wishes, chocolate, fish, whisky (particularly appreciated) and all else. I've not been around due to a combination of rushing around, determined relaxing, , and a slow wave of lurgie passing through the family. Also, this place seems to have got at the cooking sherry and gone mad on Boxing Day, and I'm not sure it's recovered yet :). Still, I hope all of you had excellent holidays, whatever and however you celebrate them. --] (]) 23:52, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
	== Advice? ==
			== AN ==
	Hi Elen; i'm wondering if you can offer a little advice. I was looking through a conflict i was, regrettably, involved in about a year ago, and i notice that the talk page of the article has been ], maybe to hide the disagreements that happened; i have no issue with that. What does surprise me, however, is that the page was edited at some point prior to being archived, so that it no longer is a correct record of what happened. To be specific, i can easily point to at least one of my comments that was completely removed , and that isn't the only pruning done. My question is, do i ignore this? reinsert the missing comments silently? reinsert them and add a note at the beginning of the archive? put a note at the top indicating that the archive is incomplete? I don't know, so i turn for your opinion. Cheers, ''']'''<sup>]</sup> 05:58, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
	:If someone else refactored your comments (other than for admin reasons) then you can make a note of that in the archive. Add a diff to the refactored comment, showing what it looked like when you made it. You can do this because other folks shouldn't be rewriting your comments. If other folks changed their own comments after you left the discussion and prior to archiving, you will just have to live with it. If someone has wholesale altered the archive at some point after archiving, that would need to be fixed by an admin. Hope this helps.--] (]) 10:09, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
	::Thanks; your advice/instruction is close to what i had calculated. Would you mind just taking a quick gander at what i did & see if it is appropriate? . Thanks again, Cheers, ''']'''<sup>]</sup> 07:20, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
			Your name was mentioned . I'm not involved at all, just happened to notice that you weren't notified.&mdash; ] (]) 14:17, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
	== FactStraight Talkpage edits ==
			:Thanks. It's pretty much a troll - enough admins in the Troubles area know who MoAinm was previously. --] (]) 18:01, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
			==Letter k topic ban ==
	Hi Elen of the Roads, I was just wondering what is going on with ]'s talkpage edits that you keep undoing (like this one ). It just seems so odd. Is there some type of error? Thanks, ] (]) 17:34, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
			Hi, and happy new year. As a recent Arbcom member I was wondering if you could take a quick look at ] and suggest whether from what you know about Arbcom an appeal is warranted. It is "only" 25,000 words, so I do not recommend spending more than 5 minutes. Basically there is a keyboard character that I can not mention that I am banned from using, and in editing documents I have already found multiple noncontroversial ways it would be helpful. The question, in a nutshell, is an editor being tenacious or tendentious? For example, there are other editors who have agreed that certain words might be spelled better with a k, or some other character, and I have recommended not bringing this up at all this year, other than in one or two RMs, each of which last only a week, and actually discuss the issue instead of parroting that it is disruptive to ask the question. Should any come up over the next six months, the deck is stacked, by eliminating one of the editors known to recommend the letter k, or other character. Secondly, I have characterized the RFC/U and the AN action as simply a result of the incivility at the MOS, which has not abated. Any thoughts? ] (]) 18:06, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
	:Factstraight plastered the same message across 50 talkpages. Since the other editor he is complaining about is readily identified, that constitutes a significant personal attack. Hence I have removed them all, although I have not blocked FactStraight. If people are having problems with the other editor, the way you do it is to start a ], where everyone can weigh in with their take in one central place, and hopefully a resolution can be worked out. --] (]) 17:38, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
	::Ah, I see. I will keep an eye on the user in question (as I know which user FactStraight has been keeping a fixed eye on). Thanks again, ] (]) 18:38, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
	:::] plastered the same message across 50 talkpages because the same argument concerns these 50 (or whatever number) articles. Reverting FactStraight and threatening to block him amounts to firing the editor of a publishing house for doing too good a job. I support his action 100 percent & my only regret is not having the time right now to clean up these articles & get FactStraight off the hook or share his fate.
	:::The user he is referring to has been blocked several times lately for disruptive editing, and now it is FactStraight who gets it! Unbelievable! Is Misplaced Pages an encyclopedic venture or the publishing house for cheap novels?
	:::--] (]) 21:14, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
	:::: Frania, you'll note perhaps that I did NOT block FactStraight. All I did was revert his edits. As I have said above, there is a procedure for dealing with a problematic editor, and that was not it. You are all welcome to start a ]. If the evidence is that he is disruptive and unwilling to change, you then have all the evidence you need to ask for him to be banned either from this topic or from the site. Misplaced Pages won't work any better than the average city centre one way system if people won't go the right way round. ] (]) 22:01, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
	:::::Elen, I know that you did not block FactStraight, but you threatened to and, since I am quite aware of what has been going on for months, I simply had to speak my mind. While FactStraight was blocked once recently for ignoring the the 3RR, the other person has been blocked three or four times within a few days, not for ignoring that rule, but for disruptive editing where he has moved pages ignoring the process to follow, thus deleting whole history of articles. Over months, he has done this to so many articles that it is impossible to correct them all. Then, there is the trivia. I am personally trying to correct a few of his articles, but cannot find the time because the whole prose has to be overhauled & every detail checked for accuracy, and there is also life outside of Misplaced Pages.
	:::::If FactStraight has done something wrong by "plastering" (quoting you :) the same comment on 50 pages, is this stalking someone? Then what is called doing what the other editor has been doing for months, "plastering" the same trivia to same number of articles. What else could FactStraight do? Sure, the other contributor has also done good editing, but that does not give him the privilege to pad articles with cheap novel material, and moving articles not following procedure, thus destroying the work done by others. And, please, do not tell me that FactStraight should have reported him for that, because it has been done several times by other editors who have had it up to here with that person's attitude.
	:::::Following what FactStraight had done today, I fell upon a comment at one of the talk pages, left over a year ago by a well-known historian expert on the Guise & Orléans families, who was pointing out some of the trivia & inexactitudes in one article in particular (sorry, I can't remember which one), which she had removed. Well, I checked & noticed that, at some time in the span of over a year, the stuff had been added back. Now, if Misplaced Pages prefers to keep unsourced material in spite of the suggestion of a professional historian who took the time to intervene, that's really too bad. And when someone puts a tag on 50 articles because they all have some of the same inexactitudes and trivia, let's ban that someone too. I simply do not agree.
	:::::''Cordialement,'' --] (]) 22:58, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
			== ''The Signpost'': 07 January 2013 ==
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	Elen, I left a msg addressed to you at FactStraight's talk page
			{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2013-01-07}}
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			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 12:27, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
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			<!-- EdwardsBot 0434 -->
			== Quoted in arb case ==
	--] (]) 23:16, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
			Hey, Elen. I just realized I should have told you that I {{diff|Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case|531908968|531898532|quoted you}} in the Arb case I recently requested. Sorry for the delay!--] 19:46, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
	== Welcome to the elections! ==
			:No worries. I'd have added something about the time I blocked him for 3 months, but it looks like its a snowball accept. --] (]) 23:41, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
			== Anonymous nonsenser ==
	Dear Elen of the Roads, thank you for nominating yourself as a candidate in the ]. On behalf of the coordinators, allow me to welcome you to the election and make a few suggestions to help you get set up. By now, you ought to have written your ]{{#ifexist:Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2010/Candidates/Elen of the Roads/Statement|<!-- exists -->|&nbsp;()}}, which should be no more than 400 words and declare any alternate or former user accounts you have contributed under (or, in the case of privacy concerns, a declaration that you have disclosed them to the Arbitration Committee). Although there are no fixed guidelines for how to write a statement, note that many candidates treat this as an opportunity, in their own way, to put a cogent case as to why editors should vote for them—highlighting the strengths they would bring to the job, and convincing the community they would cope with the workload and responsibilities of being an arbitrator.
			Anonymous user ] is persistently messing with a wide variety of articles. Any assistance would be most gratefully appreciated. ] (]) 16:56, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
	You should at this point have your own ]{{#ifexist:Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2010/Candidates/Elen of the Roads/Questions|<!-- exists -->|&nbsp;()}}; feel free to begin answering the questions as you please. Together, the nomination statement and questions subpage should be transcluded to ], whose ]{{#ifexist:Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2010/Candidates/Elen of the Roads|<!-- exists -->|&nbsp;()}} will serve as the central location for discussion of your candidacy. If you experience any difficulty setting up these pages, please follow the links in the footer below. If you need assistance, on this or any other matter (including objectionable questions or commentary by others on your candidate pages), please notify the coordinators at ]. If you have followed these instructions correctly, congratulations, you are now officially a candidate for the Arbitration Committee. Good luck! ] 02:55, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
			:Done --] (]) 17:18, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
	{{ACEcan|Elen of the Roads}}
			== Friendly notification regarding this week's ''Signpost'' ==
	===Request===
	Elen, if you wouldn't mind adding language to your nomination statement to the effect of "I have never edited Misplaced Pages with an account other than those listed here", or whatever is appropriate to your situation? I am asking all the candidates to make sure their account disclosure is full and categorical. Thanks, ] 12:19, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
	:Done --] (]) 12:23, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
			Hello. This is an automated message to tell you that, as it stands, you are set to be mentioned in this week's Arbitration Report (]). The report aims to inform readers of ''The Signpost'' about the proceedings of the Arbitration Committee in a non-partisan manner. Please review the draft article, and, if you have any concerns, feel free to leave them on the talkpage (transcluded in the Comments section directly below the main body of text), where they will be read by a member of the editorial team. Please only edit the article yourself in the case of ''grievous'' factual errors (making sure to note such changes in the comments section). Thank you. On behalf of ''The Signpost''{{'}}s editorial team, ] (]) 00:00, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
	== Questions from Lar ==
			== ''The Signpost'': 14 January 2013 ==
	Hi. Best of luck in your upcoming trial by fire. As in ] ] I have a ] I ask candidates. This year there are restrictions on the length and number of questions on the "official" page for questions, restrictions which I do not agree with, but which I will abide by. I nevertheless think my questions are important and relevant (and I am not the only person to think so, in previous years they have drawn favorable comment from many, including in at least one case indepth analysis of candidates answers to them by third parties). You are invited to answer them if you so choose. I suggest that the talk page of your questions page is a good place to put them and I will do so with your acquiescence (for example, SirFozzie's ] already has them as do the majority of other candidates). Your answers, (or non-answers should you decide not to answer them), that will be a factor in ] of your candidacy. Please let me know as soon as practical what your wish is. Thanks and best of luck. (please answer here, I'll see it, and it keeps things together better) ++]: ]/] 04:13, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
	:Hi Lar. Please post them, some are very interesting and at least one has made me realise that my view has changed somewhat. I may not get thru them all, but I'll do my best. --] (]) 12:53, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
	::Excellent, thanks. Done. ++]: ]/] 18:14, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
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	== ] ==
			{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2013-01-14}}
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			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 13:53, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
			</div>
			<!-- EdwardsBot 0440 -->
			== Tartanator ==
	It wasn't clear why you reverted and your edit summary didn't explain either. It didn't seem to be so obviously objectionable as to come under ]. ] (]) 17:15, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
	:See , also ] both for why, and for recommendations if there is a problem with the editing of these articles. --] (]) 17:18, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
	::Ah, I see, thanks. It so happened that I only had this one on my watch list, hence wasn't aware of the wider picture. ] (]) 17:33, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
	::: No worries. If there's a general issue with the quality of these articles (not with a particular editor, which was the impression I first got) then stirring up the relevant Wikiproject might be a good idea. It's at least a good forum for people having a discussion about a wider set of articles. --] (]) 17:36, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
	== Google Books ==
	* ]
	] now exists. ] (]) 01:11, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
	:I like that. ] and ] should both link to it. I always use book cites for Google books, but a lot of people just cite the URL. And even people who do cite don't always realise that the url is just the search results, and not everyone will see the same stuff. --] (]) 15:31, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
			]. I'm having issues with him in his present username "Guerrila of the Renmin" where he has taken ownership of not one but three disambiguation pages when I discovered one of them was using CJK characters (now at AFD), one he redirected to the first, and a third he kept because the items listed are written with different CJK characters than the first. What should be the next course of action with this guy because .—] (]) 11:29, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
	== User:Para.leaf ==
			:You have got to be kidding me. I only (remove content/redirect and) revert you once on each DAB page (which I will not do until the AFD closes as a certain "Keep"), and you jump to conclusions that I will "attempt to clean start again" and scramble for administrative assistance. Give it a break. ''GotR'' <sup>]</sup> 16:00, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
			::You threaten to have my "other rights taken away" because I reverted your removals of places named "Pine Mountain" on ]. How is this not an issue?—] (]) 04:09, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
			:::You were abusing rollback for what was clearly not vandalism or otherwise intentionally disruptive editing. Yes, my edit summary was blunt, but you must bear the full brunt of responsibility for this; we both know very well that I alone cannot have your "other rights taken away", and that if you continue using rollback in such a manner, the community will not look kindly upon you. You need to start breaking out of your present mentality.
			:::Oh, and more than 24 hours have passed since you came here whining; I have fulfiled my promises of not removing from/redirecting each DAB, so you have no right whatsoever to continue complaining (with not an iota of evidence, too) about OWNership. ''GotR'' <sup>]</sup> 21:05, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
			== Hey ==
	Hey Elen. Awhile back I posted on ANI about ] and this user not responding to my pleading for them to talk on the talk page. You actually left them a note reminding them to do the same. Anyway, the edit recently came back and once again added in non-notable awards and removed others that actually were notable, and did so without an edit summary and without a comment on the talk page. If you could take a look at this issue again, that'd be great. Thanks! — ] <sup>]</sup> 21:31, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
	:Sorry, haven't had a chance to really look at this yet. Both of you need to be discussing why the Kerrang readers awards are (or are not) notable, as I can't really make any comment on that (some things that the public vote for are notable, I know nothing about this one). ] (]) 10:07, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
			I see that your edit level has severely declined. I hope you're not planning to retire :( — ]] 21:20, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
	== ''The Signpost'': 22 November 2010 ==
			: Not so much retire as leave before I'm forced out I'm afraid. I am advised (by a member of Arbcom, so I'm not at all sure whether I'm meant to keep this seekrit) that they are holding a seekrit discussion about removing my oversight and checkuser right (because of course the inhabitants of this place don't trust me). Of course I don't get to see or take part in the discussion, and when they've finished the seekrit discussion (they have kindly told me) they will give me a chance to disappear quietly.
			:Amusingly, Coren announced on being elected that he had 're-activated' all his archives, confirming my previously stated concern that the system fires your personal information into the mailboxes of third parties who can then retain it whether they are still authorised or not.
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	<div style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">''']''' &middot; ] &middot; ] &middot; ] (]) 00:23, 23 November 2010 (UTC)</div>
	<!-- EdwardsBot 0088 -->
			:To deflect attention from this painful fact, the Committee seem to have decided that the world will be safer without me, as I'm obviously so much of a risk to your sensitive personal data that I'm employed in a Data Compliance role in the UK (which has some of the strictest laws protecting sensitive personal data). So I guess I'll not be around much - I'm sure the removal of CU and OS will be followed in a few months by some grounds or other for a desysop, or perhaps I'll just be blocked for saying this.
	== ] ==
			:I never met such a crazy setup. An open wiki with a lead organisation that is persecuting an ex member basically for not covering up the crazy behaviour of another member is mad enough. But to then say that person cannot be trusted with actual personal data, while happily maintaining a setup that guarantees that any personal data you send them gets immediately fired all over the internet, is just, well, mad.
	Is this the page you were referring to on Uncle G's talk? Two things; I {{diff|Heroninos Archive|398395444|398393351|fixed}} the refs to properly link to the cite book instances. Click a ref in the ''notes'' section and you're taken to the corresponding bulleted cite book in the ''refs'' section. This was broken, before. By using {{tl|sfn}}, we no longer have to manually connect multiple refs to the same page by making up a name such as <code>name="Merridew2004p123"</code>; the collation is now automatic. The prose is much clearer, too. The second thing is ]; I know Gavin from several years ago but missed most of what has gone on in the last few years, including the stuff over the last few months that you seem to be dealing with. I'm most surprised about the copyvio aspect and would appreciate your filling me in. Cheers, ] 06:39, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
			So its so long and thanks for all the fish, I guess. I might stop by occasionally and see whether the account is still unblocked. --] (]) 23:23, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
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	<p style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 1em;">'''Dr. Stockmann:''' Answer me this! Please, one more moment! A platoon of soldiers is walking down a road toward the enemy. Every one of them is convinced he is on the right road, the safe road. But two miles ahead stands one lonely man, the outpost. He sees that this road is dangerous, that his comrades are walking into a trap. He runs back, he finds the platoon. Isn’t it clear that this man must have the right to warn the majority, to argue with the majority, to fight with the majority if he believes he has the truth? Before many can know something, one must know it! ''His passion has silenced the crowd.'' It’s always the same. Rights are sacred until it hurts for somebody to use them.</p>
			:I'm sorry about that, Elen. I see how utterly unproductive those who tear down others here are.--] (]) 23:25, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
	<p align="right" >—&nbsp;From <em style="font-size: 120%; text-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.2em rgba(0,0,0,0.25);">]</em>, by ]</p>
			:: Well, no worries. I never was much of an editor. Although maybe I'll get the chance to fix that ] article some time. ] (]) 23:31, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
			:::Editors are not determined by statistics. It's about what you are here for.--] (]) 23:36, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
			:::Wow. This is just really unexpected and very sad. I still don't understand how a trusted member of the community like you could have been overkilled, but I think that this is just a maximized version of what happened to me some time ago (''a bigger fish, a bigger weapon''). I am starting to think that ArbCom was the worst thing that happened to you. — ]] 23:34, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
			*I'm sorry (and, stupid, stupid me, surprised) to hear this, Elen. I don't always agree with you, but I've always felt you had a large reservoir of ''clue'', which is more valuable than people who agree with me all the time. When I've saved up my pennies and created Grownupedia, I'll ping you. <small>Of course, we won't need checkusers and oversighters because we'll all be grownups...</small> Still, it will be a point of pride if the Grownupedia's ] article is better than WP's. --] (]) 00:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
			**Perhaps, Elen, you should make public the email you were ''actually'' sent rather than the one you seem to have invented? (Given that your description of it doesn't seem to resemble the former in the slightest).<p>Oh, and while you're at it, you might want to mention that my data retention policy you seem so stunned with now was detailed over a year ago to both the Committee and the foundation general counsel and that you didn't have any objections ''then''. &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 04:26, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
			::: Hi Coren. Tackling that last one first, you're clearly not doing anything wrong in US law according to counsel. I mentioned you only because I got the sense that people did not believe me that Arbitrators could retain these archives, and you handily confirmed that they did. In UK law, an organization would have been fined out of existence for the way that mailing list worked. Both countries have a completely different definition of private information and the expectations pertaining thereto, and it's not up to me to decide whether the current approach is kosher or not, although I would counsel anyone in the UK never to send sensitive personal data to Arbcom as were they an organisation which fell under the UK Data Protection legislation (which clearly they are not) their data security is lousy.
			::: As to the email, I don't mean to sound cranky, but as you sent it from the mailing list and copied it to Arbcom, I believe I am unable to repeat it here as it is of course top secret (I have pointed out previously that the mailing list policies prohibit anyone who has received an email from Arbcom from circulating it or posting it). I do concede that it contains the line "Any response you send will be circulated and considered before taking a decision" - I do not consider either the email or that line to be the equivalent of hearing and being able to respond to my accusers, and I prefer not to take part in show trials if you don't mind.
			::: I appreciate that your intention in sending it was to 'do the right thing'. Can I ask why is this being done by private motion and not onwiki? Probably not. I do think Arbcom in general ought to have the courage to place their opinions of me onwiki, not still be hiding behind a cloak of private discussion, with the sop of getting an individual to send me an email that the Committee know perfectly well I am prohibited from sharing with others.
			====Response to motion====
			I do not believe I can be prohibited from replying to the motion onwiki, and so that is what I intend to do. Should any other Arbs communicate their concerns to me, I will respond here.
			To respond to the issue that Coren posed, which was along the lines that he did not trust that I would not suddenly decide that some other piece of information should not be kept private. I have a very clear understanding about the need to protect personally revealing information provided by or on individuals. Following UK law, such data must not be shared with individuals who are not authorised to see it (and numerous large fines show the vigour with which this is followed up). The WMF privacy policy relating to OS and CU data covers the same types of data and has the same restrictions (I wonder if it is modeled on European law, which is stricter, to give it the widest possible applicability). It contains more than adequate provision to cover the exceedingly rare situation where a CU or OS might find themselves in possession of information that urgently needs to be lawfully passed to a third party (eg the Feds), and it is clear that the WMF takes an active role in managing that, through their emergency mail system.
			That (to my mind) is quite a different situation to revealing outrageous statements made by Misplaced Pages Arbitrators which, in the opinion already given by several lawyers who perused the situation, could never have had an expectation of privacy in the first place. What must I think be in Coren's mind is that an oversighter can see an allegation about a third party that warranted oversight. Some allegations might be explosive and have very serious consequences (claiming someone is a paedophile or an undercover cop could endanger their lives), others less so, but the key thing is that it must be personally revealing information to be oversighted under the the WMF policy. If the text does not fall into that class, then it should not be oversighted (handily allowing any administrator to delete gross insults that reveal no personal data). If it is oversighted, then it is covered by the policy and can only be revealed to a third party under the constraints imposed by that policy. That's a bright line.
			In the case of Checkuser data, it is a little more complicated. The WMF will only provide it to a third party on being presented with the right order from the right court. Consequently, a checkuser should theoretically never be discussing CU data with non CUs. It sometimes happens on the Functionaries list, which has non-CU functionaries subscribed, but all are agreed on that list that it shouldn't happen, and it certainly must not happen anywhere else. At the same time, it is sometimes necessary to put information into SPIs, particularly when dealing with persistent vandals and diligent sockfarmers - and paid editing rings that are socking from each other's locations. There's more of a balancing act here - the minimum necessary information to the smallest number of people, being aware that "editing thru a proxy in China" conveys no identifying information, "editing on a RoadRunner range" just says they are in the US while some Verizon ranges practically give you a street address, "range 212.xxx.xxx.xxx/24" will tell anyone who does a lookup that the editor is in the North of England, "IP is assigned to FooCorp" means you've just revealed where the guy works even if you haven't posted the IP address, and "always edits from FooCorp IP between 23.00 and 06.00 means that FooCorp can finger him as the night watchman. ] (]) 11:42, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
			:I have, of course, no objection to discussing the matter here if you so prefer. That email was sent to ''you'', and you can dispose of it as you will; the ''Committee'' would not have disclosed it without your permission, but you are free to do so.
			:I don't think anyone has any doubt that you are well aware of the constraints of the law (certainly nobody on the Committee does), and indeed even the more exacting standards of European law, and that you would follow that religiously. The problem lies in that our rules (the Committee's and the Foundation's) do not align with those laws: some things European law covers that US law does not, and some things our policy protects that the law does not. No arbitrator is allowed to simply pick and choose by fiat what should or should not have been covered by our rules, yet this is exactly what you did. Had you constrained yourself at expressing concerns (publicly or not) that you were being bullied by Jclemens, it would have been okay. Demand that the ''Committee'' release the email? Kosher. Hell, seek help from the ''Foundation'' if you felt ArbCom wasn't doing enough to protect you? Also fine. (Incidentally, I do agree that the Committee had handled Jclemens's behaviour poorly but, given the proximity to the election and the sudden worries around a new leak that just sprung up...)
			:What you did, instead, is decide unilaterally that it was okay for you to leak ''that'' email (and part of another) to a buddy of yours. You ''knew'' it was against our rules to do so, but decided that you were justified in ignoring them because they didn't match some ''other'' set of rules you preferred. In short, I don't have a worry that you might discard our confidentiality rules when you don't find them agreeable &ndash; I observe that you ''already have''.
			:And then you lied and obfuscated to hide what you did. You claim, post-fact, that this was done to protect the person you sent to email ''to'', but that rings hollow: they had nothing to be protected ''from''; all they did is pass along an email that they never were under any obligation to keep confidential to begin with.
			:And lastly, come the claims of whistleblowing. You started claiming, ''long after'' it was determined you were not being truthful, to have done so out of a desire to expose (or, in your words, "not cover up") misbehaviour by another arbitrator. Funnily(!) enough, I ''agree'' that Jclemens's behaviour was bad enough, probably, for outright expulsion from the committee and that &ndash; if the Committee failed to act &ndash; making that behaviour known publicly so that the community could act (if only with their voting ballots) might have been entirely defensible.
			:But that's not what you did. A whistleblower makes a matter public or brings it to the authorities, then owns up to their action. ''If'' a rule had to be broken in order to do so, then they accept the consequences and take their lumps. What ''you'' did is ''gossip'' to at least one friend, then lie and cover it up when the breach of the rule became apparent. You didn't step forward to make a great wrong public, you desperately tried to cover up when your gossip leaked beyond your control. You didn't own up to your action as ethically justified or necessary, you lied and misdirected to conceal your involvement as long as you could.
			:So, no, I do not trust you. &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 13:35, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
			Hi Elen. I'm leaving this note here to suggest a way forward and to give a bit more background. As you know, ArbCom tends to have a lot of things on its plate at the same time. This was one matter which was being discussed, and then brought to a head by Coren's e-mail to you. That e-mail was not from the committee, but from him with the committee copied in (though I for one hadn't seen that e-mail before it was sent). As you correctly surmise, that e-mail prompted more discussion. At some point in that, I checked when you had last edited and noticed that it was sometime previously (10 days or so) - Coren can probably clarify whether he had noticed your absence or not. That would have been a good point to send a follow-up e-mail asking for a brief response from you when you got back as to whether you wanted this discussed in public or dealt with by e-mail. You are right that you should have been brought in on this much earlier, and that a public discussion is in some ways easier than e-mail and certainly more transparent, but we are where we are now. I hope we can wind this back a bit and start again. I have suggested to the rest of ArbCom that we move this discussion to a public fora (somewhere better suited for this than your talk page), but it is quite possible that the decision may be that most of the discussion needs to remain internal, though I am happy to state on-wiki my views on the matter. It may take us a while to sort this out, but let me know what you think and how you would like this dealt with. Thanks. ] (]) 01:39, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
			: Thanks Carcharoth. I don't myself see there being particularly a privacy issue with this - it's surely down to individual Arbs views which would, to my mind, be better expressed in public. It's also likely to spark a more general discussion - Coren refers to 'the rules' above, as if they are a monolith, but the whole thing showed that there are actually at least three 'rules': the WMF privacy policy (which appears to be bound by law in various countries and is therefore a bright line, as well as being nice and clear in its application), that part of the Arb Policy which relates to privacy and confidentiality (which is approved by the community and subject to change only by approved procedure, but which from the opinions offered by several lawyers at the time is clearly not as restrictive as Coren for example believes that it is), and finally the custom and practice of Arbcom not appearing in any written policy, which is that its mailing list is under the seal of the confessional, and verbatim text from it can never be quoted.
			: I can understand a concern that any onwiki discussion will just spiral off. A more managed venue than my talkpage would definitely be good. I will await further communication. ] (]) 10:44, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
			::Thanks, Elen. It may not be until after the weekend now, but I (or another arbitrator) will update you when we have decided where to go from here. Will you be around on-wiki this weekend if there are any questions that arise relating to this? What I think may happen (certainly the way I would approach this) is for each arbitrator who has concerns to state them on-wiki (much like Coren did above), likely in the context of a motion designed to resolve this, and for you to respond individually or collectively, and then a decision taken. My own concern is that I don't want to take a decision until I've heard what you have to say, but I think I'm right in saying that you don't want to respond until you have the assurance of a public venue (partly to air your concerns as you have above)? Would that be about right? ] (]) 20:41, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
			::: I think you've summed it up well. Given the amount of snow coming down outside, I don't expect I'm going anywhere outside walking distance, so I'll check in anywhere you want over the weekend. ] (]) 22:18, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
			====A brief update====
			Just to tell you where things are now and not leave you hanging: we're currently hashing out the details of a proposed motion that will be posted publicly for voting (I expect /Motions is the most likely venue), and where you will have have an opportunity to respond. That motion will not propose removal of your permissions; that alternative has been robustly discussed (to say the least) and it would have passed or failed by the barest of margins depending on an abstention and an inactive arbitrator &ndash; and nobody feels that a decision that marginal on such a delicate issue is advantageous to anyone ''or'' the project.<p>So that you are not taken by surprise, the proposed motion will consist of a strong admonition and a reminder; I expect it should be ready for public discussion in a day or two. &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 16:07, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
			: Thank you for the update Coren. I shall await further announcement. --] (]) 16:12, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
			::I'm thinking per ] I shouldn't update ] to include ], right? <small>]</small> 17:21, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
			:::I should say that ] is the one you are thinking of, or perhaps ]? I mean, after all, ''exactly'' like the Star Chamber court we didn't inform Elen of charges... oh. Well, we certainly didn't give her the opportunity to comment or... oh. Well, we certainly used it as a political cover for a pre-ordained conclusion that couldn't possible change... oh. &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 18:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
			::::Those of us not privy to the <s>star chamber</s> secret tribunal may not be entirely comfortable with seeing Elen's character and community spirit impugned at vague length on this page, followed by a threat of "strong admonition and a reminder" in a day or two that's stretched to a week. I had been hoping to learn more about ArbCom's standard of ethics. I'm fine with saying it's nobody's business, if Elen is satisfied with how the matter has been resolved. But while I've never been interested in exercising any powers other than reason on Misplaced Pages, I do like to be a concerned citizen of the community, aware of its norms, procedures, and codes of behavior. I suppose I'd like to hear either "it's been resolved privately, nothing to see here, move along," or a clearer articulation of the issues we should be aware of as a community. ] (]) 21:40, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
			====Non-arb and arb commentary====
			:Welcome to the masses; you're treatment is not uncommon for us grunts. Indeed, you were on the Arbcom that decided I was too untrustworthy to have the CU (or OS I forget exactly) bit because of a comment I made about publicly logging IRC... despite managing to be a perfectly OK OTRS agent, and a RL digital forensic analyst (yep, I iz in ur computers!). So.. I do have sympathy. Chin up and sock it to the secrecy :) Perhaps consider it a learning experience ready for a new Arbcom stint in a few years. --''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 12:00, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
			:: ;\ I remember that. The plain truth is that except for the odd candidate that no-one would trust further than they could throw them for some very obvious reason, it just comes down to personal view/like/dislike. Never seemed very satisfactory, but when secret ballots were held, I gather nobody voted. Before that, I believe and RfA type process was used, which was replaced with the secret ballots . That wasn't felt to be very satisfactory either (but I could be wrong about that - it's before my time). Not sure I'd stand for Arb again - too much like ] rolling the rock up the hill. --] (]) 22:43, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
			::: Yeh, I know - the only thing that annoyed me was that it was dressed up with an excuse. I can't stand that sort of dishonesty. I guess what you're feeling now is what a lot of people dragged before Arbcom feel - so I think you ''should'' think about standing back up there. It's like... how politicians are so disconnected from the populace, but every so often one falls to disgrace and comes back "changed". I dunno, I might have drunk too much good claret :) Anways; I think in this situation you were placed between a rock and a hard place, and although I voted Nay for you (because I believe it is worth changing arbcom membership as much as possible), you have my support for what you did. All this faux secrecy hides a lot of bad stuff (TM) and in exposing just a small portion of it I think you've upheld the core of our communities ideals. My advice? I find walking away for a bit, or narrowly focusing on a non-contentious topic that interests you, is like a balm. And eventually people will forget you are a BAD person(TM) leaving you in peace. Tools 'r' not the be all an end all. Are you interested in WW2 history? I have a whole topic area that desperately needs some lurving... :D --''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 23:29, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
			Elen, Coren has an interest in keeping alleged Arbitator misbehaviour under the super secret seal of the mailing list archives, the fallout from the his block of Giano makes it clear that his own actions have been and are being concealled from the community by the policy on list secrecy. Any former Arbitrator who has misused the list has reason to fear disclosure and the idea that you are unable to distinguish between genuinely sensitive personally identifying information and material that should have been addressed on-wiki is a fiction &ndash; in reality, it is precisely because you are capable of understanding the distinction that you are feared. I am surprised and disappointed that you are being targetted but not at all surprised that Coren would be leading the charge. Unlike you, however, I have great difficulty assuming that the motivation is about potential misuse of the tools or the information to which you have access; that is merely a pretext for action, and I hope that there are enough members of the current Committee who recognise this. ] (]) 12:30, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
			:I see this as the unending hounding that eventually loses us another worthy contributor who happens to be politically disfavoured.--] (]) 15:01, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
			::Elen, you should not be denied a public hearing. Elen, nobody should not be denied a public hearing, and nobody should be denied an opportunity to defend himself publicly. The only thing I cannot understand why while being an arbitrator or . I guess what goes around comes around, and now you've found yourself on the receiving end of the Arbitration Committee. ] (]) 17:03, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
			:::I believe that she did so because it was what she was entitled to do; it was ''part'' of her job as an Arbitrator to ''behave'' like that. Otherwise, she would have been removed way before. I, as a member of a family surrounded by politics, understand how this works. If you are good enough, you will be removed by your peers. If you are bad enough, you will be ''killed'' by community. Then, the only choice you have is to balance both. Of course, you can weigh in for one side (e.g. to be as good as possible, or as bad as possible) without breaching the red line and being shown the door, and this will become the textbook that the whole community will read when assessing your contributions to the project. — ]] 20:50, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
			::::The thing is that sometimes "balancing" is not an option because as I said before what goes around comes around, and besides there's also ]. ] (]) 22:32, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
			::::: I always feel that conversations have reached a low ebb on this project when someone is quoting that poem. Although I do sometimes feel that Misplaced Pages has reached the point where ] is suppressing the ]. However, in both of the cases you quote, silence was the only answer, in that no evidence could be presented because there was none to present. --] (]) 10:49, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
			Isn't it interesting that chose to add a "Kibitzers" sub-heading. According to the ] article offers "(often unwanted) advice or commentary" and I have no doubt that Coren would prefer no advice or commentary on this issue. More interestingly, however, ] is a chess term referring to a spectator or spectators "making comments on a chess game that can be heard by the players. Kibitzing on a serious game while it is in progress (rather than during a post-mortem) is a serious breach of chess etiquette." Consequently, I feel the need to point out:
			#ArbCom contemplating sanctions on an editor is not akin to a game, no matter how much any arbitrator might wish to see editors as pawns to be controlled at will.
			#ArbCom do not rule the community, and commenting on proposed ArbCom actions is not a breach of etiquette. Further, the community are not supposed to be spectators who have no role in contributing to ArbCom proceedings.
			#Coren may view himself as manoeuvring to win a contest and defeat Elen and thus that pointing out to Elen other potential motivations is unfair, but all that illustrates is his bias and demonstrates how inappropriate is his approach here.
			#I note from Carcharoth's post that he felt the need to inform Elen directly that Coren's "e-mail was not from the committee, but from him with the committee copied in (though I for one hadn't seen that e-mail before it was sent)." Coren's on-wiki comments to date did sound (to me) like he was representing himself as spokesperson for a Committee-agreed position (though I haven't seen the email, of course). Three weeks into a new term as arbitrator, Coren is apparently already pursuing unilateral authority, and Carcharoth's comments indicate a desire to set aside this behaviour to instead focus on a more appropriate discussion of Elen's situation ("... but we are where we are now. I hope we can wind this back a bit and start again"). Inappropriate arbitrator behaviour will continue to go unaddressed, I fear.
			:] (]) 07:00, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
			::(''Note, just so as not to wrongfoot EdChem's comment above: I'm disappointed that Coren created a section with the condescending header "Kibitzers" for the non-arb commentary here. Really, Coren..! Separating these posts from Olympus up above may be convenient, indeed, and I'm not removing the separate header; but I'm changing it to "non-arb commentary", which seems appropriately dull and neutral. ] &#124; ] 21:20, 25 January 2013 (UTC).'')
			::: Thanks Bish. As you say, a dull and neutral header seems preferrable here, where the opinion of the community does appear to me to have quite a bit of relevance, and not be kibitzing at all. --] (]) 00:49, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
			::::<small>I wish formally to state that I am not here kibitzing but (broadly defined) ]. I do hope that this helps. Best wishes ] (]) 11:27, 26 January 2013 (UTC) </small>
			I am dismayed to see Elen considering stepping back from Misplaced Pages and more than dismayed to see efforts to push her to a situation where she can't use the abilities she has to Misplaced Pages's best interests. The election shows Elen has a lot of community support and had her situation been heard with out the drama that stalks some of Wkipedia's pages she'd probably have more. I have always had concerns about unilateral power-too many editors damaged by deliberate biased actions. And I have equal concern with the power generated on talk pages to create chaos, and emotional upsurges that have little meaning in terms of logic and reality. This is a collaborative community which means we can use a community in both healthy and unhealthy ways. I 'm not saying Coren is doing anything beyond voicing a concern, but the impact could be as has happened in the past to create a volatile situation that impacts unfairly another person. I sure do wish Misplaced Pages had a visible-to-the-community-page where something could be explained and where the general community could not come in and pile on, colouring and perhaps twisting what has been said and done. Another fine mess.(] (]) 17:46, 24 January 2013 (UTC))
			* Coren may not have thought through the implications of his unhappy turn of phrase. If he did, his thinking was not representative of the view of this arb, nor (I'd guess) that of a majority of my colleagues. ] ]] 11:37, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
			:* Also, Elen, I see above that you are under the impression we are out for your head. This is wrong. Nobody intends to ever propose any action other than the revocation of your advanced permissions. I certainly do not think your sysop rights have been questioned, nor that a siteban is being proposed. ] ]] 11:42, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
			::: I think Wehwalt's comments about Charlie Brown and the football probably explains the reaction - although I fully accept your assurances as to your own motivations. I think everyone is aware that there are at least three prominent editors who would be happy to see me sitebanned for insufficient application in the ] department, so I think it's not a wholly fantastical theory on my part. Still, what will be will be. --] (]) 15:01, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
			::*The move to expel Elen from ArbCom was extraordinary as there was no complaining party; a ''second'' such procedure doesn't exactly give assurance for the future, AGK. At some point, Charlie Brown quite rightly concludes it's irrelevant which way the wind is blowing as he runs up to kick the football that Lucy is holding. There's also something about sticks and the present state of equines that I would urge upon the Committee.--] (]) 11:55, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
			:::* @ Wehwalt. As you (and we've) seen in the past, a bully never likes to be challenged, so it's not surprising when they call in their friends and markers. @Elen. You still have my full, complete, and unadulterated trust. Just the view from one peon. — <small><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding:1px;"><b>]</b> : ]</span></small> 14:45, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
			:::*Elen, just a lurker weighing in that you are on the side of the angels. If The "Queen of Hearts" ("off with her head!") contingent is targeting you, and they are, don't let them run you off, we need you and those like you - too many good, solid contributors are being run off for, at most, momentary brain farts - and said momentary brain farts were often filled with good intentions with the goal of improving "teh wiki" ;) . There are some seriously problematic people on-wiki, but the ones I am thinking of are not you, but some (not all) of those in positions of power and influence. I feel sad that they have you in the beam of their magnifying glass, but don't let 'em fry you! ]<sup>]</sup> 00:32, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
			::::: Thanks. Oddly, the effect has been probably the opposite of that intended - I had been busy elsewhere and taking a bit of a break, but it's brought me back here. I'll just have to wait and see what comes next. ] (]) 14:28, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
			*For the record, I used "Kibitzers" in its "A back-and-forth conversation outside the main issue, where the people having the conversation are not directly participating" sense (which I had believed the be the primary, if not sole, meaning). I did not mean to imply that the commentary was particularly unwanted, only that it was from uninvolved parties and the separation was only meant to allow dialogue about the substantive matter to flow without interruption. &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 00:30, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
			:*Where the heck did you get that definition? ] and ] are pretty clear the word means the key element of the word is ''unwanted''. <small>]</small> 03:41, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
			:::I always thought a kibitzer was the guy two stools along at the bar, offering unsolicited advice on your choice of drink/date/spouse/job/car etc. The sort of guy the barman has to rescue you from. ] (]) 14:35, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
			::::To me, kibiters bring to mind the image of ], which is hardly anywhere that pejorative (and considerably more amusing). The choice of word was brought on by levity, and not out of any intent to insult; I am sorry if I've offended anyone by using it. &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 15:09, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
			:::::I did not take it as an insult, because "kibitzer" is a term which is usually used slightly tongue-in-cheek. The problem more generally I have with the situation being brought up by you now is that the conduct of Elen was considered, and as far as I am concerned, settled, by ArbCom during a term for which you sought to be a member, and the community told you no, as you were not re-elected in 2011. Coming back now and saying "by the way, there were some things ArbCom did when I was gone that I don't agree with and I'd like to redo" is somewhat problematical, as it was by the community's wish that you were not a part of the decision in December 2012. Of course, you may have campaigned on the platform that you would go and reconsider 2012 decisions in 2013, including with specificity the Elen situation, if you did you can give me a link and, if so, you will be heartily within your rights.--] (]) 15:30, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
			::::::Well, we could get into an interesting debate about ''ongoing'' committee responsibilities, but the simpler matter is simply that the matter was not settled by the end of the year &ndash; it had simply ''stalled'' for a number of reasons.<p>You are correct that I have not campaigned on such a platform &ndash; not counting the fact that it would have been ''extraordinarily'' inappropriate to do so during the election (the closest I've ever gotten to something like that was opine on the propriety of Jclemens's "not a Wikipedian" comment as an answer to a direct question) &ndash; I could not possibly claim to have enough information to pronounce myself on that incident at the time.<p>That said, advanced permission review is part of the normal scope of the sitting ArbCom, and there is nothing exceptional about the incoming committee making that evaluation as part of settling in (to wit what happened around FT2 in 2009). &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 17:46, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
			::::::::Then let me suggest that it is a poor idea to establish precedents that can bite you in the ].--] (]) 18:54, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
			While I'm not sure exactly what brought on the above, it's reminding me forcibly about when I closed a discussion after having asked a single question, and was reverted for being ] by an admin who had been an active participant in the discussion. I gave up my bit for a couple of months in disgust, but came back later. Hope to see you at full throttle again soon, Elen! --] 07:42, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
			:I am astonished anyone in this day and age thinks an email has any hope of being private. Reminds me of the woman in 1881 who was upset because the contents of her singing telegram became known to others! For at least the last century, electronic or post correspondence is the property of the recipient, hence the high auction prices for historic letters which go to the owner of the letter or telegram, not the sender's descendants. For someone to get upset about electronic mail shared by the recipient to the point of reams of commentary and redefining the English language, shows me that emotion has become involved because logic and reason are discarded unused. As a retired college professor with years of graduate student spat-solving, I read the entire foregoing text and find it obvious where the fault lays. I also introduce ] into the discussion with a reminder that the project is what is important here not "winning" or "scoring points." Yes, be bold, but don't forget the politeness. That said, let me add my voice to the chorus crying "Elen, please don't leave!" Us little people in the trenches need you. PS to anyone who wants to take a bite out of me for my opinion... you'll show your truest colors when you do, so have at. ] (]) 18:45, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
			:::::So with Coren states Elen is ''deceitful, a gossip, untrustworthy, a liar and unethical'' ... and adds a section header for "levity" because he's thinking about ]? <small>]</small> 15:02, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
			:::::::Well, I did ask him to give his honest opinion. At least he didn't hold back. ] (]) 15:54, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
			::::::::"Liar and gossip" imply the other insults.
			::::::::I had thought this year's ArbCom would a relative safe haven from the decadence of WP. What has WTT gotten himself into?
			::::::::The best last all conviction, etc. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 12:22, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
			:::::::::Tell me about it... I swear I'm sprouting grey hairs... can't believe it's only just been a month... ]<sup>TT</sup>(]) 12:42, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
			Just another morlock stopping by to say "Don't let the bastards grind you down." So, uh, don't let the bastards grind you down. Life is short, the world is large, and almost no one gets what they deserve. But I like the pseudo-person that appears here as "you", and wish you well. - ] (]) 12:04, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
			== ] ==
			I wonder if I must nominate this page for deletion. It consists of mere songs that were used in the show. There is nothing encyclopedic about this, as it may violate ]. --] (]) 02:41, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
			:Indeed. As Elen won't be very active, I nominated the list. You are welcome to post your vote there if you wish. Regards. — ]] 03:02, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
			== ''The Signpost'': 21 January 2013 ==
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			* ''']'''
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			* ] (]) 22:35, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
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			== Collis P. Huntington VS. the Anonymous Editor, round 30 ==
	:The copyvio thing was a surprise to a lot of people, but it did explain some of Gavin's approach to original research. You can read his talkpage for reams of the stuff, and see for the gory details. Virtually every addition of content to an article has been a copyvio. What seems to have happened is described - Gavin had an interaction with another editor (]) and come away concluding that he had been accused of OR because he hadn't quoted a source verbatim. In fact, Peter was saying it was OR because he hadn't cited enough sources. It's a wierd conversation - it's almost as if Gavin has a circuit missing, or an option not turned on. Anyway, from that he came away under the impression that Misplaced Pages policy was that as far as possible you had to quote verbatim. He has said himself that he finds it impossible to summarise as he can't put things into his own words.
			Hello again... ] has been changed several times recently by a pair of anonymous users & . The edit summaries look quite educated, but if you look at the actual edits on the page, they're very ignorant. Any help you or other admins can give to this page, which for some reason seems to attract odd vandals (or perhaps just the same one over & over). ] (]) 23:53, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
	:Anyway, thanks for straightening up Heroninos. I can see how it's done now. I couldn't find anything to inform me how to do this kind of cite - I don't know if I was looking in the wrong place.] (]) 01:52, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
			:The same problem is also to be found at and . ] (]) 23:56, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
			::{{tps}} comment - not sure why you mention 71.246.62.88 here since their only contribution seems to be fixing ]. Agree that the other "editing" is a real problem though. :( ] (]) 11:42, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
			*Materialscientist blocked the 67 IP for a month (sorry I wasn't quicker off the mark) - agree with 82.45 that the other IP was only trying to fix the mess. Don't know why poor Collis Potter Huntington seems to attract vandals. I can understand juvies vandalising ] or ] - they have one of the first category, and probably...well, you can guess the interaction with the second. But how would you even find Collis Potter Huntington if you didn't already know he existed. ] (]) 14:24, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
			::Thanks for a stop to the anonymous editing! @anon-TalkPageStalker... I mentioned both 71 & 67 because I couldn't figure out what was going on, and rather than make a bad situation worse, I pointed to both IPs and asked for help. @Elen... My guess is that C.P. was found on some kind of "Potter" search at some point and has been attractive to mess with ever since. The other page in constant vandalism state that I watch is ] who is apparently, in his spare time from the Food Network, also the ]. It gets changed, we change it back, it gets changed... I wish these people put as much effort into working on the project for real as they do on trying to mess it up! ] (]) 18:18, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
			::: That's hilarious! Although I gather he's in competition with ] for the antichrist tag . And did you know, ] discovered the elixir of life, and added it to the KFC recipe (I can't find the vandalism for that unfortunately - someone wrote a whole spoof article about how Harlan Sanders is still alive and eating KFC (if you can find the shop that sells the right version) will make you live forever, but I can't recall the exact title. ] (]) 19:01, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
			==Muffins, English==
	:: I'll go look; I ''had'' found the gory details page and see that this was the largest load of bricks to fall on him. I'm thinking he needs time intent on another project, such as Wikisource, which worked for me. It's different; a library, and verbatim is the goal. I need to spend more time there myself, before they get annoyed at my absence. Gavin's obstinacy is the other shoe, but that's really only an issue to the far end of the spectrum. I agree with a lot of what he does, at least in regard to things like our notability criteria.
			Elen, please ] ... and the ] article is still patiently awaiting your visit. Really. Politics is poo but editing is good. Best wishes ] (]) 11:19, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
	:: There are an awful lot of good example pages about; WhatLinksHere is your friend; just find a template and then find usages. Go meet ]; he's quite good with this stuff. Cheers, ] 05:44, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
			:<small>'''PS''' Yes I am not logged in but don't worry, no drama, no conspiracy, I'm just on a break ... not someone you know well or anyone interesting or important. Just would hate to see you stop editing here, that's all. Cheers ] (]) 11:22, 26 January 2013 (UTC) </small>
			::No worries. I agree, the best thing is to ditch the politics and get some editing in :) And don't worry about logging out here to avoid drama - it's only the ones who log out to leave insults that get bit by ] (usually) --] (]) 16:45, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
			::Love that song, BTW. Always been a fan of both of them, so put them together and boom! --] (]) 16:46, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
			:::Thanks - yes, great song, great combination of artists. And I really wasn't logged out here to avoid drama, but merely because I was on a self-imposed break so actually ''couldn't'' log in at that time! :) Cheers ] (]) 12:27, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
			== 90.202.58.225 ==
	::: Thanks, I'll follow that one up. Re Gavin, I certainly came to the conclusion that he has a problem with something which prevents him from tailoring his arguments to audience, or following any strategy to extract a compromise. You get so far in what you think is a productive discussion, then he keeps jumping back to the beginning. Unfortunately for him, I think a consensus formed in the outer tiers that he was a troll - Vyvyan deciding he couldn't support my arb candidacy because I was too lenient with Gavin is evidence of that. I don't know what to recommend for that. He's an intelligent chap, he could probably learn how to do some of this stuff if he was minded, but at the moment I don't think he can see that this - not his views - is what is the problem that got him banned.] (]) 02:26, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
			I begin to think that the user, ]&nbsp;{{#iferror:{{#expr:90.202.58.225 round 0}}
	:::: I left Gavin a further reply on my commons talk, recommending time at Wikisource. I believe he means well, but he does not know when to let things go. I've sympathy for him because we share views on some things; know Miller? Gavin simply believes he's ahead of the platoon. But I have seen more recent stuff that's concerning, so I'm afraid I can't make much of a case to bring him back absent time off and elsewhere.
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	:::: You must know ]; it has a huge piece missing: it encourages people to simply wait-out bans. I routinely oppose unbans where they've simply sat on the bench. I was en:banned for eight months; I didn't go away, I went UP; to the wider WMF-plane. I worked on other projects, notably id:wp, jv:wp, and s: and now I'm home. If Gavin shows interest in Wikisource, I'll show him the ropes. I've not ever thought of Gavin as a troll. He's analytical, sees how various policies and guidelines interact, and is adamant in his convictions. But you can't work with others from the extremes of things. I've let a lot go in my time here; I see it as needing to wait for the project to mature, which it has, over time. It's got a lot more cluing-up to do, though.
			|1=]
	:::: These annual drama-fest are always a mess, and falling at the end of the year really isn't helpful. You sure you want to be an arb? Think of 200 emails a day, of wading into oceans of bickering about things you've never heard of. I don't know what your areas of interest are (although I just glossed ] (I had geckos living in my roof for years;)), but I can assure you that arbtown will expose you to all sorts of new stuff.
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	:::: Off to read your answers; best of luck. ] 05:45, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
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			}} may be {{user-multi
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			|User=Anthony Weights
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			}}. Look at {{la|Cheers (season 4)}} What shall I do? --] (]) 16:27, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
			:No he's not. You can relax. 90.202.58.225 used ] to create the article. Anthony Weights works at AFC approving new articles and moving them into article space. Check his user contributions - you can see him doing the same with lots of articles. ] (]) 16:52, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
			== ''The Signpost'': 28 January 2013 ==
	::::: Not read much Miller - the Crucible is my favourite. I don't think Gavin is a troll, but I do think he needs to accept that he needs a new strategy, because the platoon has just marched straight over his head :( I agree about OFFER - I need to see some evidence that the person can work with other people, even if its just editing the Duran Duran wiki. Wikisource doesn't have the OR issues, so may be a much easier place for him. ] (]) 01:24, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
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	:::::: I used to live near Miller; Sondheim, too. I've a serious theatre background. I never did ''Crucible'', but like it. The Wiki-platoon is known for their hobnailed boots when they're pissed about something. I've not heard back from Gavin on my commons talk, so that's adrift. See the tail-end of ]; precis is a user en:banned for disruptive editing of soap opera articles (mostly bad image uploads) and peck of socking. I'm trying the Wikisource route with her, and she's said 'hi' on my talk, there. I see your account is active there but you've not made any edits. Drop by for a tour of the ropes, if you like. Cheers, ] 01:53, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
			{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2013-01-28}}
			</div><!--Volume 9, Issue 05-->
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			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 17:32, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
			</div>
			<!-- EdwardsBot 0452 -->
	== candidate statement ==		== Checkuser question ==
			Elen,
	Hi Elen, sorry to be a bore, but could you trim your candidate statement back just a little. A few words over and we can cope, but it's 411 in display mode, by my counting. Thanks in advance. ] ] 00:58, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
			I know you're not terribly active, but on the other hand, I probably know you better than other active checkusers, so I'll bug you first. Do I understand correctly that a CU can tell whether or not one account sent another account an email thru the WP interface? Not the contents, but the fact that the email was or was not sent. In a case where one user says another user sent them a harassing email, and the other user denies sending any emails at all, would a CU be ''willing'' to check this? Not asking for the check yet; still hoping the one not telling the truth comes clean without the check. But I'm inclined to block the liar indefinitely if he doesn't come clean, whichever one it turns out to be. --] (]) 23:37, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
	:It was 400 bang on until Skomorokh asked me to include that sentence about never having edited with another account :). It should be down to 391 now by my count - let me know if you have anything different. --] (]) 01:18, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
			:I don't think CheckUser can see the recipient of the emails. They can only see that the email was sent and the IP address from which it was sent.--] ] 23:40, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
	::For it is foretold in the prophecy, to become an Arbitrator you must first survive the nineteen trials of the coordinators... ] 01:22, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
			::Oh, well, rats. If that's the case, I guess CU could still conclusively disprove one of the claims, but not the other. --] (]) 23:51, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
			::Actually, it would still work; the other user says they have not sent any emails thru the WP interface in over a month, so a check could be used to substantiate one side or the other's claim. --] (]) 23:58, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
			:::The checkuser tool shows if the user sent an email through the interface, but only shows who it was sent to as as a hash code. I suspect that somewhere there is a lookup table, but it's only available to a developer. However, if the user is insisting that they never sent email thru the interface, that can be demonstrated with the tool. --] (]) 00:06, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
			::::If someone doesn't come clean, is this something you'd be willing to check? --] (]) 00:08, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
			:::::Please, just go on with it now. This is getting really annoying, like a bug that won't stop flying by your ear and you can never hit it in time. <font face="Arial" size="2em">&nbsp;—&nbsp;]&nbsp;(], ])</font> 00:10, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
			::::: Well, if your user is alleging that they have received harrassing emails from User:Foo, they need to forward the emails, ideally with all the headers - it would then be possible to compare that fairly definitively with the return from the checkuser tool. Even without the full header, the tool could compare timestamps. I wouldn't be happy to do it without confirmation that the email exists. --] (]) 00:14, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
			::::::I've sent you an email, Elen (if you doubt it, you can use CU to verify! :) ) --] (]) 00:20, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
			:::::::I'll just leave you guys to it. {{smiley}} <font face="Arial" size="2em">&nbsp;—&nbsp;]&nbsp;(], ])</font> 00:21, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
			{{resolved|With an indef block, no CU needed after all. The accusation against Status is false. Thanks for your time. --] (]) 21:06, 4 February 2013 (UTC)}}
			:: No worries. This guy sounds like a piece of work. ] (]) 22:45, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
			== ''The Signpost'': 04 February 2013 ==
	== Gibralter ==
			<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
	You linked to "Gibralter". You meant "Gibraltar". ] (]) 02:03, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
			{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2013-02-04}}
	:Thanks --] (]) 02:10, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
			</div><!--Volume 9, Issue 06-->
	:In fact, the RfAR was spelled 'Gibralter', so if you check, it's still spelled wrong in the link. I have spelled it correctly in the pipe now though. --] (]) 02:13, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
			<div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">
	::The issue is that your link didn't work and still doesn't. You want . ] (]) 02:16, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
			* ''']'''
	::Your gastropods link also doesn't work and shows up as a redlink in your comment (try ]). This stuff is making you look a little bit careless. ] (]) 02:20, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
			* ]
	::: Thanks, I've got them both. Hands up, I'm checking the prose but not the links on these answers and you're right, it does look careless. I've read over both sets of questions, can't see any others. Red Queen is deliberately linked to Red Queen hypothesis rather than more generically. --] (]) 03:01, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
			* ]
	::::Thanks. ] (]) 04:25, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
			* ] (]) 01:10, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
			</div>
			<!-- EdwardsBot 0456 -->
	== Help with the LGF revision ==		== Your recent activity on the Castle topic ==
			You deleted some sourcing that I did on this topic and you claimed that my sources were "poor"-a National database of paranormal research? Also you closed the topic to anyone but admin. for one week. Wow-I'm not impressed. Over-use of power and for a completely power-abuse reason. That is not what admin. status is for you know? ] (]) 02:47, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
	Greetings to one of the Tuatha Dé Danann.
			:You are mistaken. I made no edits to the article, I just protected it as there was a content dispute resulting in multiple rapid changes. Please discuss any changes you want to make with other editors on the talk page - if there is consensus on what to put in the article, the protection can be removed. --] (]) 11:00, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
			:: I note there's already a couple of edit requests up on the talkpage. Do you want to comment on their suitability, and maybe add an edit request of your own for others to discuss? --] (]) 13:21, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
			:::Just as well it was protected in the state it's currently in. , which 24.0.133.234 restored three times in the course of his edit-warring is a blatant copyright violation. See ]. Best, ] (]) 17:04, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
			:::: Nice catch. ] (]) 22:17, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
			== Subject: Elen of the Roads, Misplaced Pages administrator ==
	I'm trying to rewrite the Little Green Footballs Wiki entry in the wake of the edit war. I'm trying to bring it up to a better standard, make it in line with entries on other blogs, and update the information contained there.
			Elen, I am happy to see that your edit count is gradually climbing again. Without getting into the merits of your recent Arbcom controversy, I must say that I have always known you to be a circumspect and conscientious administrator, and Misplaced Pages would be a poorer organization if you were to abruptly lay down your tools, vanish, or fade into semi-retirement. There is a place for you and role for you to fill, and I hope you continue to do so. Cheers. ] (]) 18:02, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
	This is my first attempt at a Wiki edit, so I'd really appreciate an experienced person looking over what I wrote and giving any and all criticism that you can. I attempted to write the entry from a neutral tone, though I am a poster there and do 'like' the site. I edited out a lot of stuff I felt was soap-opera-ish and entirely unsourced.
			:Thanks. As I said above, that's the odd thing. Without Coren emailing me to say that Arbcom were going to do whatever it is they haven't done yet, it might have been a while before I got back to editing, other things having sprung out of the woodwork to take up the time (well OK, not woodwork. Rather, I had set about compiling all the cuttings of recipes I'd acquired over the years).--] (]) 22:16, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
			*Thanks to everyone else who has said kind things about me. I hope I can continue to be at least somewhat useful. --] (]) 22:16, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
	One of the larger problems I'm having is determining how much and in what way some information needs to be sourced. LGF has changed a lot since the election, and I wanted to cover that topic in that entry; LGF is run by Charles Johnson, who went from being a McCain/Palin supporter to a strong critic of the right-wing. I detailed some areas where he's changed over time, but didn't know how to source that exactly, since it's more of a gradual change thingy. I provided links to firm statements by him where I could.
			:*Sounds like a new userbox is needed. "This editor is ''somewhat useful'' despite..." --] (]) 22:36, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
			::*I don't use those boxes, but feel free to join my ], and "ban complaining" (see my user, actually from Bach's '']'') --] (]) 23:00, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
			==You've got mail!==
	Thank you for any help that you can give.
			{{you've got mail|subject=|ts=21:54, 7 February 2013 (UTC)}}
			— ]] 21:54, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
			== Dry glue ==
	Oh, and the page is here.
			So after the whole fiasco I was asked to go edit elsewhere. I looked at your profile and saw ]. I noticed the first sentence is written in an odd way, and the revision history says you wrote it. So I figured your opinion was the best on the subject. It originally read
	http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Obdicut/Little_Green_Footballs
			*'''Dry glue''' is a method of adhesion based upon the naturally occurring adaptations of the feet of ]s, which allow them to climb sheer surfaces, and even glass walls.
	] (]) 13:10, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
			I changed it to
	:I'll put comments on the talkpage there - I do think it's got some OR still in there, but it's definitely better than it was. --] (]) 15:06, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
			*'''Dry glue''' is a method of ] based upon the naturally occurring ] ]s that allow ]s to climb sheer surfaces and even glass walls.
			alternatively, you could even write the same sentence as
			*'''Dry glue''' is a method of ] based upon the naturally occurring ]s that allow ] ] to climb sheer surfaces and even glass walls.
			It kind of becomes potatoe potato at that point. I personally think keeping the words ''foot'' and ''adaptation'' next to each other is a better idea, because the adhesive is specifically developed from the foot adaptations and not general gecko adaptations (such as a knee adaptation that assists in climbing.) Also, if we are being completely pedantic, the entire gecko climbs the wall, not just their feet. So my first sentence ''should be'' the better of the two. But between the last two, it's a horse a piece and not even worth debating.
	== I need a mentor ==
			First I questioned whether the sentence should use ''which'' or ''that''. If you don't know the difference, it's pretty clearly explained here. http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/which-versus-that.aspx I switched from ''which'' to ''that'', to make the second half of the sentence a restrictive clause instead of a nonrestrictive clause. This was to reduce the chance of reading the sentence in a nonsensical way. Nonrestrictive clauses can be removed without changing the meaning of the sentence, restrictive clauses cannot. Removing the phrase ''"which allow them to climb sheer surfaces"'' drastically changes the meaning of the sentence. ''That'' is more appropriate than ''which''. It makes the sentence more clear and easier to read (even in a subliminal way, few people would ever consciously notice.)
	Looking for someone to answer questions about how to do references in a power manner (slick and fast). Move pages. Other technical things that come up. Can you point me to someone good and willing? ] (]) 03:45, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
	: Looking at your block log, it would seem that what you actually need a mentor for is how to behave in a reasonable way around other editors. If you want advice on how to format references, see the conversation between myself and ] further up the page. --] (]) 01:00, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
	:: Slick(?) reference tool http://toolserver.org/~magnus/makeref.php Regards, ] <sup>(])</sup> 01:08, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
	::: Ah, that explains some of the column formatted references in an article I'm working on with Nuujinn - he must use that tool. I use ], but was having difficulty with an article that required Harvard referencing in the conversation above. TCO, both of these tools enable you to create references more easily. I think RefToolbar doesn't work if you use Internet Xploda (half the tools on wikipedia don't work if you use GatesGoo), but the one SunCreator suggests runs on the toolserver and will work. --] (]) 01:17, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
			Then I removed the oxford comma after ''surfaces'' for the exact same reason ''which'' becomes ''that''. With the comma ''"and even glass walls"'' could apply to the earlier clause, causing the reader to accidentally read the sentence as ''"Dry glue is a method of adhesion based upon the naturally occurring adaptations of geckos feet and even glass walls."'' By removing the oxford comma ''"and even glass walls"'' only applies to the phrase ''"climbing sheer surfaces"''. A native English speaker might be unlikely to get confused, but to others, the sentence can easily be read to mean that dry glue is based on the adhesion properties of glass walls. Glass is not an adhesive. Removing the comma makes the sentence more clear and less ambiguous. As a bonus, by removing the oxford comma and swapping ''which'' to ''that'', it allows us to remove the first comma too. The entire sentence can be constructed with no commas. Yay!
	==Congrats==
	Hi, Elen, congratulations on achieving an "Oppose" in Elonka's voter guide. That'll surely help people make an informed choice. And you couldn't wish for a more enlightening edit summary than , could you? ] | ] 00:21, 28 November 2010 (UTC).
	: I'm sure it's just a coincidence `o. --] (]) 00:38, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
	:: I can {{diff|User:Lar/ACE2010|399188423|399182351|top}} that ( winks at Ms 'Shonen ;)
	:: Cheers, ] 01:57, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
			Then I noticed ''"adaptations of the feet of ]s which allow them to."'' 10 word, 3 prepositions, 3 nouns, 2 pronouns, 1 article, and 1 verb. It creates all sorts of odd possible interpretations. Does ''"them"'' refer to the geckos feet or adaptations themselves? Is there a difference? Sort of. I tried to reconstruct the phrase to remove any ambiguous interpretations. Thus, ''"adaptations of the feet of geckos that allow them to"'' became ''"foot adaptations that allow geckos to".'' The change removes one of two pronouns and two of three prepositions completely. In my opinion, the changes create a sentence with only one interpretation. The phrase now has 3 nouns, 1 pronoun, 1 verb, and 1 preposition, and it definitively makes sense. Much better, right?
	=="I wish I could find the diff"==
	... on vested contributors. diff? :-) ] '']'' 01:41, 28 November 2010 (UTC).
	:Hi 'zilla. Not the one I was thinking of, but very good one. A vested contributor in the meatball definition is someone who actually holds an unpaid office or recognized position (fundraising organiser, sunday school superintendent, club secretary etc) in a voluntary organisation, and believes that having held this office for z years means that the rules don't quite apply to them. The tireless contributors to volorgs, who make endless rounds of tea and cakes, stuff envelopes, distribute flyers, man tombola stalls etc almost never fall into the category of rule abusing vested contributors. They do occasionally fly off the handle when the churchwarden complains at them for some pettifogging incident to do with teacups.
	The diff I was thinking of was a ludicrous discussion that I have banished from my mind other than this diff, where someone genuinely said that wikipedia editors should only edit articles that they knew nothing about. Probably if you searched by edit summaries for something like "most bloody ludicrous thing I've ever heard" you'd find it, as I seem to recall that was my response. --] (]) 02:09, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
			Since you are the person who initially wrote the sentence, I defer judgement to you. Do you think, after hearing why I changed the sentence, it is more, or less, clear? I really didn't want to stick around, but enough people politely said to give it a try. I figured I would listen to the experts for once. I made a small edit on an unrelated page. The editor I had a conflict with is now following me around and reverted the changes I made, on completely unrelated pages. The only reason I even found the page was because of your userpage. I don't like having every decision I make undermined and undone, especially as some part of an ill conceived revenge plan. If this keeps happening, there is no way I can keep contributing. Who in their right mind has enough time to continually justify even the most mundane actions? There is no question in my mind the revert occurred as a prejudice against me, because in my eyes the change is absolutely an improvement. Is his second guessing of everything I do just a way to derive pleasure from torturing me? Is creating a new account to escape stalking the best course of action? I can't even reintroduce my improvements without starting an edit war. No dialogue between us has been very constructive. Both of us are at fault for that one. Clearly he didn't put as much thought into the sentence as I did because ALL my changes were reverted, sans two links he put back. At the very least the oxford comma should be removed, and ''which'' changed to ''that''. But, my removal of the other comma, a pronoun and prepositions, is what I see as an obvious improvement. ''"Of <small>the feet</small> of <small>geckos</small> which"'' has 2 prepositions and a pronoun in six words and a third preposition three words later. It has 2 pronouns in three words (''which allow them''.) Doing those kinds of things make sentences hard to read. It causes the reader to have to go back and read the sentence a second time. Back when I was a kid we were taught to cut the clutter. Reduce sentences to their basic elements. I will admit, maybe I overlinked one word, feet. That seems like a judgement call. If we are talking about the evolution of gecko feet, I would think a link to feet is handy. I still think I was right to link it, but if someone else didn't, I would have no problem with the link being reverted. I even put what I thought were really good explanations in the comment box describing why I made the changes. Is this guy going to follow me around wikipedia and revert everything I do. Is participating anywhere at all futile? Why bother? My entire reason for treating this as a cup half empty situation was because no matter how small of a chance you make, it gets reverted and you have to write a paragraph justifying your thoughts. And when you do justify your thoughts, they fall on deaf ears because people prefer ] to actual communication. We are becoming a place where anything more than a sentence or two is glossed over and ignored. I am more than glad to fix oddly constructed sentences here and there, but I don't want to constantly justify every little comma and pronoun change. I can't believe I just wrote this much about a 29 word sentence. Normally I would put this on the talk page, but a) you wrote the sentence, asking for your thoughts directly is best b) Rob self admittedly wont read walls of text anyway and c) it's more of an issue with the aforementioned user than the constituent construction itself. If you think any of my ''improvements'' are justified would you look into reinstating some or all of them? Or at least us my observations to construct a more coherent sentence? This is way above me caring about gecko feet. I just want to be left alone to edit in peace. (If you can't tell, my stream of consciousness probably violates all the editing tips I suggest. You can't win them all.) ] (]) 14:09, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
	== Time for ice cream! ==
			*You ever come across a guy called ]? He did a wonderful sketch which consisted of repeating the words "Ethel called. She has got the tickets to John's concert on Saturday" with the emphasis on a different word each time, followed by an amusing gloss on what the speaker actually meant. For example, '''Ethel''' called.... was glossed with "Ethel called. Why did Ethel call. Does my son John not want to speak to his mother any more" And Ethel '''called '''.... was glossed with "Ethel called. She called. On the telephone. You'd think she could spare the time to come talk to her mother in person, but no." And so on.
	{| style="border: 3px solid #4A98F2; background-color: #A9D2FF;padding:0.5em"
	|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | ]
	|rowspan="2" |
	|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''Ice Cream!'''
	|-
	|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid #4A98F2;" | Hello Elen of the Roads! Dianna has given you this lovely ice cream dessert to brighten your day! Ice cream promotes ] and hopefully it has made your day better. A seriously yummy dessert will help you fortify yourself for the elections. Cheers! --] <sup>(])</sup> 20:10, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
	|}
			*Anyway, I saw your original edit, and I thought it was a great improvement (although I do think Ent's is better now I see it). I didn't see the other chap's revert - from his edit summary, I think he thought the worst of you, then revised his opinion when he saw what you've posted here. I do think he will be less suspicious in future. You're certainly welcome to improve the English in any article I've edited. I hope you found the talkpage discussion which followed you posting here more in line with the ideal as well.] (]) 23:11, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
	== Lorynote ==
			*:You lost me with the sketch. What does glossed me? "victor børge ethel" brings me nothing useful on google? To change the subject a little.. I typed some thoughts to you earlier in the day, and figured they might register with you specifically. Feel free to not read any of it............... I found your ] essay enlightening. You are a very smart person. A lot of problems do come from cultural differences and interpreting other peoples comments through our own internal lenses. What one person intends as genuine can be perceived as snarky and disingenuous by the other party. When the whole situation began I though my minor contribution should have been the least controversial thing since sliced bread. The context of the situation I had entered, failed to register. I now see everyone was already on edge and probably pissed off about the comic. They didn't want the attention. I didn't understand why I was being met with such forceful rejection. Being rejected just made me try harder and harder until it snowballed into mania. I'm not saying I'm not to blame. I am. I kept getting pushed ever so slowly towards the edge. I wanted to keep screaming "it's him not me" repeatedly, but did not, knowing full well it would make the situation worse. In the resulting chaos I mistakenly vilified Scjessey. That was bad because it gave me an enemy I didn't need. He was blocking everything I was proposing, but he had legitimate concerns. He even called me out on it, saying I was being stupid for painting him as the bad guy, and I didn't listen. As the brick wall I was fighting got stronger and more adamant I started punching harder. I was being misrepresented on the talk page. I was being misrepresented in the incident report. (Again, perspective.) I didn't understand the incident report wasn't a court and tried to defend my self. Baaad idea. That didn't help. I don't get how they expect new people to understand what all these similarly named things are. I got blocked and tried to cool down, but I kept getting pushed. When an adult sits around harassing a kid over and over until the kid commits suicide, the adult can get charged for homicide. But in American Football, it is always the person reciprocating who gets a flag thrown. It's the punch in retaliation that gets you in trouble. Misplaced Pages is more like football than murder. It's the rebuttal that gets you in trouble. What ticked me off to no end is how I end up being the one indefinitely banned from discussing Star Trek, but no one else involved. Yea, I was increasingly argumentative. That didn't mean that everything I said needed to be addressed. The smart thing to do would have been ignore me. The elders should have known better and be held to a higher standard. In fact, an admin even told him to "stop rising to it." The fact that established editors get the benefit of the doubt, and newbies get the doubt is what makes this place inaccessible to a fresher generation of users. (Further complicating the issue is the inability to quickly denote an authority figure. SarekOfVulcan warned me and I completely ignored him because I had no idea who he was or that he was an admin.) It seems like any enforcement of civility and disruption only addresses the problem itself, and not its root causes. It's like treating AIDS with painkillers instead of antiretroviral drugs. As I keep reading ], it sounds like your worldviews match up with mine. I just got to the sentence that reads "To my mind, and this is a personal opinion, bullying and browbeating an editor away from a topic is the issue we ought to be dealing with. Good editors will leave a war zone - how often have we heard it said 'I stopped editing there because of X's attitude.' " This is exactly why Misplaced Pages loses otherwise willing participants. "Reverting every edit in article space, rubbishing or ignored everything someone says, ignored any consensus that forms around them, jumping on any and everything (however little) said against their edit by someone else, regardless of the overall opinion of other editors, is as damaging to the project as the type of edit that will get you a civility block, but it is much harder to get it dealt with." I was guilty of a lot of that too. Now, I just keep coming back to "The principle Ignorantia juris non excusat (Latin for: "ignorance of the law does not excuse") is incompatible with the guidelines of "do not bite" and "assume good faith"." I was the one who didn't know better. I want to lash out and proclaim "it's not fair" but no one was interested in listening anymore. '''I wish your essay had been published somewhere more visible before I got involved in this mess.''' I also wish the inclusion of slightly controversial material, thereby allowing a wide audience of non-wikipedia-regulars to weigh its worth, was the status quo instead of gridlock. Everything about the process seems so backwards. By playing it safe, and doing nothing, everybody loses and emotions stay tense. It creates a destructive, not productive, work environment. The one thing I disagree with in your essay is " Having said that, if I ask someone to modify an aggressive approach, I expect them to stop, and I think one key thing in improving the editing atmosphere would be the approach to enforcement." I think empathy instead of authority is the best way to calm people down. Telling a person who is caught up in the heat of the moment to chill (or worse, take a chill pill) almost always makes things worse. When you get told to chill out, what does it make you want to do? ] (]) 01:44, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
	See ], I see you found the RSN thread. ] (]) 13:55, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
	:Ah. I'll let the checkusers get her then. Sources are slim to vanishing point - this is a subject where you really only want scholarly sources, as there's so much New age crap out there on the web. --] (]) 14:00, 28 November 2010 (UTC)		:::No, I can't find a video of the sketch either. Perhaps I'm remembering the names wrong or something. I only mentioned it because it rather reminded me of him, the way you (and others) were deconstructing to death this sentence about gecko feet. I'm glad you found my essay helpful. I'm convinced that a lot of disputes are down to mismatched expectations of what should happen, rather than one of the participants being Dr. Evil. ] (]) 01:29, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
			::::'''Stigmergic Accumulation''' - the process of building upon existing work bit by bit. I learned that phrase from the Misplaced Pages Signpost: '']'' section on the 4th. I still content "browbeating an editor away from a topic is the issue" coupled with a fresh bloods eager desire not to be subdued by the loudest objectors, but that point is moot. My drive to succeed was classic ]. ''The Robust Public Debate Principle'' (which feeds back into the ]) of free speech champion Justice William Brennan (who also happened to wrote the Majority for the landmark '']'' case) applies -- The robust debate principle recognizes that ''sometimes in a crowd of speakers it is necessary to turn down the volume of certain loud and clamorous speakers'' in order to give others a chance to speak. Even the most influential Justice of the 20th century, a defender of free speech, understood that sometime free speech means restricting speech. Did you know moot means nearly the opposite of moot? How could you possibly know which one I mean? The "issue that is open for debate" vs "the issue that has been rendered irrelevant." ] (]) 17:15, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
	==Talkback==
			::*xkcd, it doesn't matter whether I'm an "authority figure" or not. When someone warns you that your editing is becoming disruptive, that's the time to sit back and say "ok, what am I doing, and what have the results of this kind of editing been in the past?". --] 17:34, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
	{{talkback|NerdyScienceDude|Dodgy usernames|ts=00:31, 29 November 2010 (UTC)}}
			::::ok. You have to understand that when someone who opposes my contribution asks me to stop, it sounds remarkably like someone trying to get me to give up so they win. It's a matter of perspective. The tone you were using with me was not exactly welcoming. "What part of WP:SUBJECT isn't sinking in here? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:03, 2 February 2013 (UTC)" "And that last major addition of yours, clearly against consensus, crossed the line. If you continue to waste other editors' time on this subject, I will be requesting a block on the administrators' noticeboard. Switch topics for a while, edit some other articles (preferably not Trek-related), and maybe come back to the topic later. Much later. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:41, 5 February 2013 (UTC)" From my perspective you were actively trying to prevent my case from being heard. The "sinking in" and "much much later" quips were kind of mean. Why would YOU take advice from someone who is insulting and belittling you? The feedback I gathered after every draft shaped the proposal. I found it insulting that you would call collaborative editing a waste of time. ] (]) 17:52, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
	~<span style="border:2px solid blue;background:beige;font-family:Mistral">''']]]'''</span> 00:31, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
			::::: I can see both sides here. Yes, I agree that the way things were put to you were more likely to make you mad than to make you understand. But at the same time, the way you kept on going at it was more likely to make everyone else mad than to persuade them to your point of view. In those situations, a sanction of some kind for the person who has no or less Misplaced Pages policy in their arguments is always a potential outcome, so there is an extent to which the other parties were intending a generic warning that persistence will likely cause the hammer to fall, rather than a direct threat that they wanted to silence you. So the lesson for someone like Sarek might be to try other phrasing, to see if that has a better uptake. And the lesson for you might be that if a lot of people are giving you the same message, it might be worth trying to unpick their beef with them, rather than ploughing on regardless. ] (]) 13:21, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
			:::::: What does this sentence mean? "A sanction of some kind for the person who has no or less Misplaced Pages policy in their arguments is always a potential outcome." I got sanctioned for talking too much. ] (]) 18:26, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
			::::::: Precisely - talking too much with no wikipedia policy in your arguments, or less wikipedia policy than your opponents in your arguments is frequently seen as "tendentious editing" and tends to get you a sanction. Whereas determinedly resisting attempts to insert a ] violation, or a copyright violation, where you have policy clearly on your site, gets you plaudits. ] (]) 18:32, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
			:::::::: Oh, I still maintain they were incorrectly applying policies with ulterior motives in play. Most of my comments addressed policy criticisms head on. Pfhorrest shared a similar sentiment and said "the arguments being provided against it look like they are clamoring for anything to throw just to shut down the matter of title-related issues here." Betty Logan said to open an RFC to see if their argument held water. Then I confused the Incident Report for a court and aired my opinions of Rob, thus earning a ban. So now I can't file an RFC and we will never know who was right. I'm still confident a RFC would have vindicated me. The conversation reduced itself to Nuh uh. Uh huh. I think to even call it a conversation is a stretch. I could show you the exact sentence that was causing all the fuss, and maybe you could explain to me if I have a warped interpretation of WP:SUBJECT. ] (]) 23:05, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
			== Talkback ==
	== ''The Signpost'': 29 November 2010 ==
			{{talkback|Cenedlaetholwr Cymreig}} --<span style="background:#DCDCDC; border:3px solid green; width:200px; height:16px;">]&nbsp;]&nbsp;<small><small>]</small></small></span>&nbsp; 15:51, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
			== ''The Signpost'': 11 February 2013 ==
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	{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2010-11-29}}		{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2013-02-11}}
	</div><!--Volume 6, Issue 48-->		</div><!--Volume 9, Issue 07-->
	<div style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">''']''' &middot; ] &middot; ] &middot; ] (]) 20:56, 29 November 2010 (UTC)</div>		<div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">
			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 07:25, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
			</div>
	<!-- EdwardsBot 0089 -->		<!-- EdwardsBot 0461 -->
	==Books?==		== Owning up.... ==
	Hello Elen, as far as now I´ve only mentioned books from Google Books, even Amazon.com was there. Thanks anyway. ] (]) 15:41, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
			Hi Elen,
	== I agree ==
			You were right the first time, HackneyHound was an account I created many moons ago. And yes it was operated on a vodafone network. Gravyring was not a sock of mine but my housemate, who I roped in, not sure if thats meat puppetry as we shared a bathroom at the time. So all of the sock cases against Hackneyhound are all different users, potentially innocent or just those using their phone or 3g tablet to avoid a block as I did. But Hackneyhound, I have not used since blocking so any of those blocked related to my account should be revised maybe.] (]) 11:43, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
			:And we are supposed to believe you, because...you say so? , - - 7 month after (as you ''now'' say) ? ] (]) 13:33, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
			::Just so were clear, Rashers is struggling with the time between the edits. First 2 Factocop edits are 17months '''before''' Hackneyhound creation, not 7 months after as Rashers has stated. Trying to twist facts....] (]) 15:45, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
	I noted your comments and have followed it up with . I accept your concerns, but having seen unblocked, despite this latest unblock seems to be nothing new. That unblock was a election time also?--<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 08:24, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
			:::Factocop is struggling with the English language. Your brazen denials of having used other accounts came 7 months after you say you registered Hackneyhound. ] (]) 16:28, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
			::::Rashers, I'm confused, you have now presented 3 diffs from 2010. Hackneyhound was created in 2012. What are you on about?] (]) 16:35, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
	== Deleting an article ==
			:::::My mistake. I guess I was confused by the fact that you were blocked for socking, then unblocked for not socking and now you confess to socking, but it's somehow OK. ] (]) 16:49, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
			::::::I just didnt appreciate you twisting facts. I've explained a ton of times but Factocop was indef. blocked initially I think for being CU confirmed as The Maiden City. Factocop was my first account. When I received the indef. block I felt an injustice and starting socking, only because I should never have been blocked in the first place. as a sock I continued in the same vain as before, I was quickly found out and was barely able to edit with constantly being getting blocked. I was then able to present evidence to ShellKinney that Factocop was my 1st account and that TMC was not me. So I was unblocked, but then blocked for close to 2 years because I had edited/socked in the interim. Scoking doesnt pay as no one takes you seriously. At least now as single user Factocop I can edit again, but I was getting fed up with every user in troubles related pages being linked to me just because we had a shared pov, which is not uncommon in this topic on both sides. And I'm pretty sure I was not the only user socking as so many accounts in the troubles topics seem to exist purely to support each others edits. ] (]) 16:59, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
	Elen, I have an article I think should be discussed for deletion. The process baffles me; I think I've only had an article deleted once, an unsourced stub for which I could find no sources (within an area I'm familiar with) and which seemed not to exist. It nevertheless took forever. The article in question seems to me to be OR and an unwarranted content fork. Usually I'm on the side of keeping content that is criticized mainly on these grounds, as you may know. I haven't tagged it, and I've asked for views from the Greece & Rome Project. I don't want to put its author through some hideous process if I'm mistaken. I hope it isn't some violation to ask whether you might also have a look-see, since you've participated in more deletion discussions than I. The article is ]. ] (]) 13:33, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
	:If you want to discuss an article for deletion ] is the process to follow. I agree it is a content fork and seems to be mostly OR, so I will tag it for you, as I have twinkle and it makes it slightly easier. --] (]) 13:41, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
			::Factocop account was my first account. Just being honest here, didnt have to be, as it was no one has mentioned me in relation to HackneyHound in a long time. Just thought given the number of people who have been accused of being my old hackneyhound account, didnt think it was fair to them, thats all. My hackneyhound account seems to be the go to account when people are editing at any british isles/troubles related pages.] (]) 14:25, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
	:Deletion discussion is at ]. You might want to notify the relevant project. I think this is some guy's undergrad thesis and Jannot is his lecturer - alternatively its Jannot who has written it. The article cites nothing published by Jannot, everything is primary sources or secondary sources on only one of the two subjects - classic OR. --] (]) 13:49, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
			::: Well it clears up one mystery - a lot of people thought Hackneyhound was you. But I'm not inclined to think that there are legions of editors on that Vodaphone range, all with your exact pov and way of expressing it. --] (]) 14:39, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
			:::::I'm not sure how the vodafone ip address operates over a 3g network but I just assumed that carnival_fred(of the top of my head) was maybe one of them as he was pretty strongly viewed. All I can do is confirm that I was the only HackneyHound account and there is no other account associated with. Perhaps If you want I should email arbcom with my previous accounts if you wish....or post here, though I can't remember all my accounts so may need help with that.] (]) 14:55, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
			::::::To qoute you above, with emphisis bud, "''All I can do is confirm that I was the only HackneyHound''" and then contradict it with "''If you want I should email arbcom with my previous accounts''". So which version is it? Only Factocop and HackneyHound? Or are there previous? Or maybe sleepers? Which ever way, one of the terms of your unblock was edit only while logged into Factocop, no IP editing and no socking, as you have admitted to being HackneyHound and there is a clear checkuser for a sock of his, I would say that its not looking good at the moment. ] (]) 15:09, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
			:::Factocop was my first account! So there were no previous accounts before that. I created hackneyhound account while factocop was blocked. I'm just saying all of the account linked to HackneyHound are not me. Aside from this Murry, I am here to discuss with Elen. I havent broken any of my terms of unblock, if I had, I would not be owning up to this now. Just tired of seeing old blocked accounts being linked to every anon ip. without any real proof for the most part.] (]) 15:25, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
			::::Hmmmmm.... so here's a simple question. Did you ever have a run-in with me on any British Isles related stuff? And if so, what account? --] (]) 15:45, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
			::::So lets have your other accounts. ] (]) 15:47, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
			@HK, don't think so. My main focus was troubles esque such as Londonderry, City of Derry Airport, Giants Causeway, Carlingford Lough etc.
	== Signing posts ==
			I have nothing to gain from this and I have not breached my sanctions, just so were clear
	] Hello. In case you didn't know, when you add content to ] and Misplaced Pages pages that have open discussion, you must ] by typing four ]s ( &#126;&#126;&#126;&#126; ) at the end of your comment. You may also click on the signature button ] located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you. <!-- Template:uw-tilde --> <small class="ad-sig" style="background:#800;border:1px solid black;color:white;">''']&nbsp;]</small> 03:54, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
			Other accounts not in timely order:
	:Grrr! I'll swear wikEd eats my sigs :) Mind you, I was v. tired last night so prolly just forgot. I know Xeno was following me up as well. --] (]) 15:19, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
			HackneyHound
			Afterlife10
			NI4Life
			Homebirdni
			CodSa
			DameEdnaUK
			AttackZack (I'm a saved by the bell fan)
			Pilgrimsquest
	== Lorynote (revisited) ==
			...a few more but can't remember off top of my head.] (]) 15:58, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
	Hi Elen, in view of , I thought you might be interested in . There is no such template as {{tl|uw-unsourced}}, so I created something. I hope it was appropriate. Cheers - ] (]) 23:31, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
			::Take your time. It's important, if we are to get to the bottom of this. ] (]) 16:59, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
	:There's a template {{tl|uw-unsourced1}} that uw-unsourced redirects to: it's on the Twinkle tool. I've noted further problems with Lorynot - have provided her with a good mathematics source for the calculus article - the witch of agnessi is certainly notable - we even have an article on it, and I would think it was of general interest that a woman mathematician of the 18th century discovered it. Lorynote has to stop inserting stuff sourced to nothing, new age crap or the catholic encyclopaedia though! I would have blocked her again, and will if she puts the reverted edit back. --] (]) 23:44, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
			Thats all I can remember, but feel free to point out any...] (]) 17:08, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
	==Thanks again!==
	Thank you very much for taking your time and indicate these reliable sources. I´m gonna use it!! ] (]) 23:46, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
	:Good. That's the kind of source you need. If you have good sources people will help you out with the content. --] (]) 23:54, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
	::Well, there´someone complaining about these ones too. ] (]) 10:28, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
	:: is this a good source? ] (]) 12:38, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
	:: you provided mentions Agnesi´s comprehensive book as ''one of the'' first; for me it´s ok (don´t need to be THE first to have her as major player in the history of maths and calculus (although there are to sustain that); so we could change ''THE'' first for ''one of the'' and the source also says that it become a major reference for students: "Maria's great contribution to mathematics with this book was that it brought the works of various mathematicians together in a very systematic way with her own interpretations. The book became a model of clarity, it was widely translated and used as a textbook". . ] (]) 13:36, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
	:::Lory, belili is a truly dreadful source - unless you are writing about a history of the New Age belief that there was once a universal matriarchal society filled with goddess worshipping feminist devotees of the Universal Mother who lived in peace with gentle nature loving men (oh except for the Amazons - they didn't get on with men so good) etc etc. Basically, any source that involves an author who is published by ] - even if the reference you want to used is not published by Llewellyn - is useless for any subject where there is also a serious academic debate going on.
			:Afterlife10? ] (]) 16:04, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
	:::I was a student of archaeology when ] was the expert on the Old European neolithic and bronze age, and ''Bronze Age cultures in Central and Eastern Europe'' was required reading (I've probably still got a copy of it up in the attic somewhere). But Fleming's ''The Myth of the Mother Goddess'' which came out in 1969 was only the first of a raft of criticism. Gimbutas went down the same route as ] - although she didn't actually found a religion unlike Murray (] has its roots in Murray's later work) she was taken up by ] and others, and this has damaged her reputation somewhat.
			:]? --] (]) 18:42, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
			*I've looked at a lot of the history, perhaps CU did mess up with the original sock, perhaps it didn't. Regardless, there's never an excuse to start a socking spree, which you've admitted to here. Indef block for socking anyone? ] (]) 19:25, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
			**No. But we need to know the other accounts, all of them. Enough time has been wasted at SPIs because Factocop didn't 'fess up before. How his block was lifted without 'full disclosure', I've no idea. ] (]) 19:59, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
			@highking, no not levenboy. Don't think we've collaborated on anything either.
			@Luke, youre late to the party. I already served 2 yrs for socking and was allowed to edit under sanctions.] (]) 19:32, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
			:Well no, you didn't. You socked at least as recently as a year ago, by your own admission. ] (]) 21:04, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
			::'well no, you didnt' what? I have been open about my past accounts when I didnt have to be. And with the law of averages, I'm pretty sure you Rashers have committed a sin or two. Maybe next time you disagree with a user, don't get involved in their SPI case, just to discredit their argument or remove them altogether. You recently leapt to the defence of HK at ANI. Some would say that is suspicious....anyway this isnt about you. I've admitted all my accounts. thats more than enough.] (]) 23:21, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
	:::If you want to edit articles on historical subjects in this area, you must use academic resources. You must show that modern mainstream academics believe that x society was matriarchal or whatever. The modern view is that Goddess worship and a matriarchal priesthood does not provide any support for a matriarchal society - ie who made the laws, who ran the country, what rights did women have in law,in marriage, in society etc. For example - Rome had a matriarchal priesthood in the ], but Roman women were restricted from full participation in society, and were excluded from political office. The primary deity of Athens was the goddess ], but the Athenian regime towards women was similar to the Taliban - only permitted outdoors wearing the burka and accompanied by a male relative, no access to the law, no say in marriage etc. ] on the other hand considered itself descended from ], but women and girls could not only go about as they pleased, but girls were formally educated and encouraged to sporting prowess, and women largely ran the country.
			:::Well no you haven't been entirely honest. If your implication is that I have also used sock puppets, then you are entirely wrong. Not everyone with an opinion (on whatever) feels the need. ] (]) 23:50, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
			::::if you say so. i think we are done.] (]) 23:54, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
	:::I believe you have an honest interest in the subject, and a desire to improve articles, but you need to think hard when introducing information like this. "Is it missing from the article", "do I have sources that are as good as the other sources", "am I putting the right information in the right place in the article" are the sort of things you need to think about. It's not easy - as I said to someone else , there are a lot of chaps out there whose opposition to females is quite irrational (I was involved in the Movement for the Ordination of Women in the late 1970s, and some of the really crude things that opposition clerics came out with stunned their compatriots). You do need to be spot on with sourcing, and persuade those of a neutral frame of mind that this is an academic issue, not go charging in with the aim of upholding 'wymyms rites' or you'll just end up blocked for edit warring again. ] (]) 17:18, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
			:::::No, you still have to disclose all your past accounts. Your failure to do so up till now has screwed up several SPIs. Make good or don't expect a warm community embrace. ] (]) 00:11, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
			:::::::I have disclosed all my past accounts.] (]) 00:20, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
			::::::::Are you are ''absolutely'' certain...] (]) 00:30, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
			:::::::::as sure as i can be, though the important thing is that i only have one account now. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 00:33, 14 February 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	==]==
	] -- Please retract the descriptive phrase "totally bogus" at ]. The phrase implies fraud or deception or some kind of trickster behaviour -- none of which are applicable in this image from a non-controversial article about a non-controversial subject. Based solely on the information available for me to read, the sentences in the "fair use rationale" were reasonable, conventional, appropriate -- wrong, as it turns out, but surely straightforward.<p>In a collaborative editing context, you need to recall that not everyone has had your specific range of experience. If I had known better, I would not have re-written the description in a different way. How else am I to learn if not by asking questions when a problem is pointed out? If Future Perfect had responded to my repeated requests for an explanation, this would have developed differently; but it did not.<p> My uploading of this file and my effort to comply with all rules and procedures does not deserve derision nor contempt. It does deserve an investment of time in explaining so that I can do better in the future -- especially when, as here, I ask in a reasonable manner for that explanation.<p>Who's kidding who? Think about it.<p>This is not an instance in which anyone needs to <u>assume good faith</u> -- rather, my good faith is demonstrated, specific, noteworthy.
			::::::::::And that's "owning up"? Your problem, you fix it! ] (]) 00:46, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
	On the other hand, this sentence was welcome and helpful.
	:::"It's a public parade - I can see people in the crowd taking pictures."
	This comment about a single sentence tells me that looking for people with cameras in a crowd is a factor to be considered. I will bear this question in mind in future. Do you see the difference? Maybe this particular sentence was intended as sarcasm or something else, but I only have the words to read. I construed the sentence in terms of what I can guess about what I don't know. Thank you for the helpful sentence. --] (]) 02:41, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
	:It is totally bogus - in terms of wikipedia policy, the idea that we would use a non-free image because it has the tv company logo has no value, ie it is bogus. It does not imply either fraud or deception. It does imply that you, who write in very good English, do not appear to have taken time to read any of our policies on non-free images, as you have zero comprehension of them, and are giving reasons that have no value, ie are bogus. ] (]) 02:46, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
			People, take some advice from an old Wikipedian - ''NEVER'' trust a sock-master & keep ''all'' of his suspected socks blocked. ] (]) 03:30, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
	::Yes, your follow-up is clear.
			:This stuff about the housemate being "roped in" with the shared bathroom - ] Hackneyhound completely denied being even linked to Gravyring at all,{{diff|User talk:Hackneyhound|485060184}} and now ''Factocop'' comes in and clears the air? Lies beget more lies - do not trust those who lie. Y'all are getting jerked around. ] ] 07:49, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
	::*I reiterate my thanks for the comments which help improve my appreciation for how things work in this Misplaced Pages venue.
			:*Hence my call for an indef. ] (]) 09:41, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
	::*I can not thank you for sentences which are merely critical without a constructive aspect. A forward-looking purpose is missing.
			::Rasher's diff above seals it for me.{{diff|User talk:Factocop|387318232}} Factocop is a proven sockmaster - and a proven liar. How they are still here is amazing. I don't trust this user at all, or his claims about who he is or is not. Ridiculous. ] ] 09:50, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
	::This becomes another of the ] --] (]) 03:00, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
			:::I have explained that the diffs were a mistake on my part. Just don't want opinion swayed on that point alone. That is not to say that all is fine and dandy and Factocop doesn't have some serious confidence building to do. The onus is on him. ] (]) 10:01, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
			::::Well I think I have certainly learned not to edit war, but I do now tend to discuss the hell out of things. But I say this, any user who is falsely accused of socking and then is indef blocked would more than likely sock aswell. Anyone who says they wouldnt is a liar. Trust me. Nothing more frustrating than being blocked for an offence you didnt commit. Socking isnt right but at the time I did know the appeal system or another way to continue editing other than socking. I was released from my block by arbcom, despite my socking history so I don't see why I should be blocked again as I am still editing under sanctions and for the most part sticking to them to the best I can. But I can imagine alot of the accounts that were originally blocked for being linked to hackneyhound in the first spi have probably socked because they have been falsely accused.] (]) 10:13, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
			:::::By your own admission above you edited as Afterlife10. People should ponder ] to get a flavour of how your level of trust on the project is to be judged. How can you expect anything you say to be taken at face value? ] (]) 11:47, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
			::::::At this point I can't say anymore. As afterlife10 I was blocked for socking as Factocop. True. All you have shown is that when I was Afterlife I tried everything I could do continue editing. You would do the same. Though some of my comments then seemed to link HighKing and NorthernCounties. I probably raised an SPI but they were never looked into as I was subsequently blocked for being a sock, alas. Look, you don't have to trust me if you don't want to, and given your edit history we obviously have a different POV so you are never likely to trust me or my motives anyway.] (]) 12:11, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
	:::See your talk page ] (]) 11:42, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
			:::::::I don't distrust you because of your POV. I distrust you because your idea of 'truth' is whatever seems convenient to you at a given time. ] (]) 12:16, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
			::What were all the CU results for the confirmed Hackneyhound socks based on? Dynamic Vodaphone IPs? ] ] 10:23, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
			::: Yes, same Vodaphone range, apparently same or similar device (but then it probably would be as it's a mobile range). Those IPs rotate every 24hrs or so. That and the marked similarities in editing. Occams Razor suggests that if it was Factocop the first time, it's Factocop all the other times. CU could never prove it, because Factocop does most of his editing apparently while at work (or apparently on a work VPN). ] (]) 12:33, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
			*If I got an indef block I felt was completely incorrect, I would first coherently and accurately (as well as I could) state my case, then if that didn't work, probably get very annoyed and storm off. I would not, however, create a whole truckload of socks to carry on editing. That's not a smart idea at all. I also wouldn't constantly tell different stories at different times - you seem to be making several different claims here, and elsewhere (pages and time wise). ] (]) 20:14, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
			:::Well Luke, He who has never sinned may cast the first stone...given your interest here, I can only assume that your behaviour and contrubution on wikipedia must be flawless. Yesterday you made 23 edits spread across the entire day. If you were ever blocked, I would guess that you would struggle to kick the habit that is wikipedia. To say you would simply walk away from wikipedia is pure bu((ock$. Wise up!] (]) 11:16, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
			:::*Considering I'm sensible enough NOT to break any rules, then it wouldn't be an issue. I take a very dim view of sockpuppetry, hence my "interest here". 1 sock, OK, but as many as you've had? Also, I made 23 edits yesterday, yes - but about 10 to one article (at least) ] (]) 12:00, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
			:::I'm just saying its a hard habit to kick, and I just don't think you would stop editing if blocked. Thats all I say on the matter.] (]) 12:21, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
			::::So you will be socking again the next time you're blocked? You appear to be saying socking is 'wrong' but it is 'reasonable', if you think the block is wrong. ] (]) 12:53, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
			::::::No, because I don't intend on getting blocked again, but if I did get blocked, I am far more aware of the appeals process.I'm done now. Can't say anything more.] (]) 17:20, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
			:::::::I am just curious why you are doing it now. As I have interacted with your socks and various IP's over the last year, and since your unblock ''you'', I am curious why now? AGF and all that, but I am still curious. Why would someone who has socked extensively (and heavily denied it) and been blocked appeal to Arbcom, get back on here and then confess? ] (]) 17:51, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
			::::::::I'm more concerned with the back at ], labelling everyone as "Nationalists", and then the serial reverting of my edits which were made in line with IMOS. As he well knows. This is exactly the behaviour that got him banned in the first place, resulting in his sock abuse. This was followed by a weak canvassing attempt to if the original edits were OK (of course, asked after he'd already reverted 9 articles). Based on this behaviour and his history, I see no reason why the community believes he might be a net asset to the project. --] (]) 19:14, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
			::::::::::@HighKing, those edits seem more in line with the IP range you have qouted at the SPI than other edits he has made recently. Again another curious piece of this puzzle. ] (]) 19:27, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Seriously Murry, any fool can read the ANI where Highking was recently accused by sock IP of removing 'British Isles' term. I checked Highkings edits, using the 'user contribution' tool and found that this does seem to be true. Highking is going page to page applying his version of IMOS. Here are 8 edits alone where he has replaced ] with ] despite ] being used in the body of the text...,
			,
			,
			,
			,
			,
			,
			.] (]) 10:13, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
			:::::::::::I have to agree, especially given that Factocop (above) says he has never had a run in with me previously, and suddenly he's stalking my edits like that Voda IP editor - which we already know he also uses.... --] (]) 19:41, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
	==Deleted file==
			::::::::::::::Like I said, I am only using one account - Factocop so stop throwing socking slurs at me.10:13, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
	Yeah it was the wrong file i uploaded! --] 06:17, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
	:No probs. If you make an updated version of the file - if the structure changes as these things do- you should just note on the file documentation that it's an updated version of the one on commons. That'll deal with any accreditation issues. --] (]) 10:06, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::Elen, can you look at this new issue. Rashers and Highking seem to be in cahoots , this edit goes against IMOS. How is it that in an article where ] is mention 21 times, is it correct to use ]. Complete joke.] (]) 10:19, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
	== ''The Signpost'': 6 December 2010 ==
			::::::::::::::::I gave my explanation at the IMOS TP, which has been . Sysop attention is long overdue here. ] (]) 10:39, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::I removed your post as I don't think it had any relation to the content of WP:IMOS. so it was me who 'misinterpreted' IMOS?! ok gotcha. Thanks Rashers, you really are a bastion of wikipedia. So just so were clear, When NI is mentioned 21 times in a body of text, it is IMOS to use ]?okkie dokkie mr boss man, sir.] (]) 11:06, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
			*Can't Factocop just be indeffed already? They're lying about not socking, they're violating several other rules, and just generally showing a ] type of attitude. ] (]) 13:01, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
			::lying about not socking? have you read this thread at all? violating several other rules? which ones?] (]) 11:54, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
			:*Is ] you? It would be a remarkable coincidence for two prolific sockpuppeters to be unrelated with such similar names and Vodafone IPs that have been named in both Hackneyhound and DeFacto SPIs... and I don't believe in coincidences. I know you've been pulled up for different issues, but DeFacto's edits have also centered around MOS and British things, which seems oddly familiar. ] ] 11:38, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
			::def. not me. I have listed all of my past accounts already. ] (]) 11:54, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
			:::Once a sock-master, always a sockmaster. You'll never be trusted by the community again. ] (]) 20:52, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
			::::Misplaced Pages can't really be considered a community with so much POV pushing. really?............and again all of the accounts listed above are ALL the accounts I have held EVER. So Highking, please refrain from linking me to further accounts as you have here . The witch hunt is over.] (]) 23:31, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
			**It certainly is over. After lengthy consideration and some further checking, I have indefblocked Factocop on the simple basis that Hackneyhound is still socking, and he has admitted to being Hackneyhound. He also seems to be madly reverting, which I'm sure is in breach of his unblock conditions also. ] (]) 00:27, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
			***Well done Elen, wish I hadn't been goaded into wasting time on exchanges with this individual. ] (]) 00:40, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
			:::*I'm convinced DeFacto is also Factocop, being disruptive in similar but slightly different areas, but there's no real evidence I have to prove this, other than cynicism and a gut feeling, so there's not much I can do about it. ] ] 15:08, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
			::::Whether they are or not, this is exactly the harm that socking causes to the project; it creates an atmosphere of distrust which undermines collaboration. Ellen is to be commended for patience and decisiveness on this long-term problem. ] (]) 21:32, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
			== ''The Signpost'': 18 February 2013 ==
	<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">		<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
	{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2010-12-06}}		{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2013-02-18}}
	</div><!--Volume 6, Issue 49-->		</div><!--Volume 9, Issue 7-->
	<div style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">''']''' &middot; ] &middot; ] &middot; ] (]) 03:06, 7 December 2010 (UTC)</div>		<div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">
			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 18:19, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
			</div>
	<!-- EdwardsBot 0090 -->		<!-- EdwardsBot 0465 -->
			==Possible sockpuppetry of Bull-Doser==
			It appears that Bull-Doser has created today a new account that inserted the same content that got him blocked in October. .
	== Turkish Van ==
			Right now, I'm about to leave the house out and don't have time to fill SPI. I'll deal with that later. But in the mean time, you can just have a quick look at it even if you decide to not take actions. Bye. ] (]) 20:55, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
	Hi, today the article about Turkish Van received the nomination of good article in Russian Misplaced Pages.
			:Give him another couple of edits. This guy seems more able to string two sentences together, and is talking about a change in early 2013 whereas Bull-Doser was making the change back in June 2012. Do you want to try just asking him if he has a source for that, and seeing how he answers? --] (]) 21:29, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
	We had discussed the corresponding article in English Misplaced Pages, and I would like to know your opinion, if the article may be improved and offered for the nomination in English Misplaced Pages. Thanks in advance for your reply, ] (]) 19:16, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
			::''whereas Bull-Doser was making the change back in June 2012''. You mean in October 2012. To be honest, I already know it is Bull-Doser just by the way he writes coupled with the timing this account was created (right after a community ban proposal and some concern from Bull-Doser on his talkpage regarding this). But sure, I'll give him more edits. Thanks. ] (]) 06:17, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
	:Gosh, that's a while ago. I'll have a look. --] (]) 21:22, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
	::My congratulations, Elen! I just read the following post. Great, we had a good experience together, so, if I may be helpful, please, contact without hesitations, though I am not a native speaker, I'll do my best to suport any reasonable project ;) ] (]) 12:08, 9 December 2010 (UTC)		::: Nah, I've found edits in June changing the station output to Hot Adult Rock (or whatever). Guy is nothing if not persistent. I have restored an earlier version and left a note - let's see what he does. Also, let me know if any other favourite topics suddenly pop up an editor from nowhere. ] (]) 13:21, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
			::::I just noticed that Scotmail marked its biggest contribution as a minor edit. Bull-Doser is the only user I know that randomly marks as minor edits that aren't even minor.. It seems that Bull-Doser has taken a break from the Wikimedia Foundation because neither the Scotmail acount here nor his Bull-Doser account on Commons have been used in recent days. I agree with you that there's no neccessity to take actions against Scotmail if he doesn't make more edits than those 3 edits, although this situation could always be brought to the attention of the new reviewing administrator should Bull-Doser decide to make a new unblock request. ] (]) 02:11, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
	:::Thank you. That's very kind. I'll try to get a look at the Van cat article today. --] (]) 11:54, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
			::::: Well, I felt the lack of response was somewhat telling, so I ran a usercheck. The tool hasn't 100% nailed it, but it's pretty close. I'm happy to block Scotmail as a sock of Bull-Doser, and I'll make a note on Bull-Doser's SPI record.
	::::I have posted some notes on the talkpage. There's just a couple of picky bits. ] (]) 23:12, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
	:::::Hi, Elen, thank you for your comments. I did not manage to complete the planned works in Russian Wiki articles, the discussion is still going on. When one of them will be completed, I will enter the canges that I will be able in TUV article here. Thanks again, --] (]) 00:04, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
			== Who killed ''Aaron Schwartz'' (and why)? ==
	== Congratulations ==
			At ]:
	] ] 22:33, 9 December 2010 (UTC)]]
			: '''1 Odd'''
	] ] (]) 01:05, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
	:It's all over but the announcement. That'll teach you to step forward, huh? :-) Welcome! &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 01:10, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
	What have I done (facepalm) :) --] (]) 01:31, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
			: “Check out . I wonder when the article for this Aaron Schwartz was deleted, and why? ] (]) 22:45, 21 February 2013 (UTC)”
	:Well, right about now you're probably realizing that light at the end of the tunnel was the proverbial train. ;-)
	:On a slightly more serious note, let me add my congratulations to the pile. I look forward to working with you in the coming year! ]&nbsp;<sup>]]&nbsp;]]</sup> 01:35, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
	::Right! Thank you for your kind thoughts :) --] (]) 02:02, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
			Is there a way to find out? --] (]) 04:41, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
	I am especially happy to see you elected onto the committee. You have my undying gratitude! ] 03:45, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
	:Thank you. That's very kind of you. --] (]) 09:49, 9 December 2010 (UTC)		:Very odd. I cannot find a trace of a deleted article with that name. I can only think that your IP created a redlink in that edit. --] (]) 21:56, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
			== Proof positive ==
	Congratulations, Elen! I too look forward to working with you. There's an email en route to you. ] (]) 04:55, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
	:Seen it and replied --] (]) 09:48, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
	*Congrats and best wishes for your tenure.] ] 10:25, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
	:Thanks. I hope it all goes OK ] (]) 12:04, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
			This should prove that GabeMc is getting harrassed. Will this give him full rights to rid WP of all content dispute editors against him forever?. I am providing the means for him to accompish this, right here.
	Congratulations on your apparent election to the committee. I was glad to see that you put yourself forward as a candidate. ] (]) 10:28, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
	:Thanks. Of course, Jimbo might still turn me down if he ever got to see my passport photo. Not sure zombies can serve as arbitrators :) ] (]) 12:06, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
			You are a bitch but we still love you!
	Congratulations! ] ] 11:05, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
	:Thanks. ] (]) 12:06, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
			BTW: When that POS WER section of domineering crap learns that banning everybody will stop editors from quitting they will have learnt something. Dennis should know better. Is running WP into the ground by design or happenstance? Most of its members have the attitude.
	My sympathies. :-) --] (]) 15:57, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
	From RFA directly to ArbCom, congrats. ] <sup>]</sup> 17:26, 9 December 2010 (UTC)		Have a good one!! ] (]) 22:22, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
	:Further Congrats... well deserved, and may your work go well. Thanks for serving. ] 00:10, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
	*Adding my voice to the chorus -- congratulations.--] (]) 06:32, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
			== ] ==
	Thank you, thank you, thank you - all of you. I hope I live up (or down) to your expectations. ] (]) 23:10, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
			I created a request of editor review on me. Just to let you know. --] (]) 23:13, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
	: Congratulations, ]!&nbsp;] 14:56, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
	:: Hey, I thought ''I'' was her fellow sockpuppet! --] (]) 15:20, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
	::: Ah those were the days. But wait! Should I turn myself in to Jimbo as a sockpuppet of someone else :) ] (]) 15:25, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
	::::Congrats! ] (]) 21:26, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
	::::: Thanks. BTW, you weren't one of the guys I was grumping at over at ] were you? About that wretched mole? Apologies if so.] (]) 23:12, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
	::::::Yeah, that was me. (But I take criticism just fine, so that doesn't matter that much ;> .) ] (]) 00:25, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
	:::::::Well...tell you what, I'll do you a nice Darwinbish and chips to make up for it :) Have you met the twins yet?--] (]) 00:29, 14 December 2010 (UTC) ]
	:::::: So much wikilove! Accept my congratulations too, nice lady! ]. 23:12, 13 December 2010 (UTC).
	:::::::I know! It's disgusting! ] throws up.''] ] '']'' 23:12, 13 December 2010 (UTC).
	::::::Why thank you, you sweet little fish. Darwinbish! Have you been eating cephalopod and patisserie again. I ought to make you clean that up! ] (]) 23:17, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
	::::: Oh, just put on yer wellies! You cantankerous old arb! ] '']'' 23:31, 13 December 2010 (UTC).
	:::::: You be quiet, you cheeky young fishersnapper. ] (]) 23:56, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
	::::::: Mop'n bucket? Is this an offer to nominate me for adminship? I accept! It's time for another bish! Remember when Bishzilla was admin? Good times! OK, start it up, little Elen of the Rooftops! ] '']'' 10:02, 14 December 2010 (UTC).
	:::::::: Ah, those were the days, when mighty 'zilla roamed the earth. Anyway, here you go ] ] (]) 00:13, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
	== Congratulations ==		== Did you get it? ==
			I sent you an e-mail last week ... did you ever get it? (]''']''']) 00:28, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
	Congratulations from me as well. I look forward to working with you during the next two years. Regards, ] (]) 01:19, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
	:And I with you. Thank you, and congratulations yourself. --] (]) 23:11, 11 December 2010 (UTC)		:Yes, and I thought I replied as well...let me go look. --] (]) 22:47, 28 February 2013 (UTC) <----sent you a reply on same day. Have re-sent it. --] (]) 22:53, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
			:: Odd ... still not coming through. Are you in my spam filter? LOL Ah, I found out why - that one, rare word was one that I added to my spam filter - could you re-send once more, as I have removed it (sorry!) (]''']''']) 22:01, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
			== Blocked proxy - or is it? ==
	== ] ==
			Hi Elen, just a quick heads-up to let you know that I've listed ] at ], since they're contesting the proxyblock you actioned in November. Cheers, ]&nbsp;]‍] 08:06, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
	In hindsight, I can see that my UAA report wasn't particularly clear; I should have mentioned that ] had made a (now deleted) article on that school's radio station. I've only had two UAA reports that I can think of get shot down, but I don't take comments such as yours as anything but constructive criticism. I don't get offended by people telling me I've made a mistake (IRL, I have a very caustic sense of humor); in this case, I can see what the confusion was. ] (]) 03:13, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
			:And the result is... . So I'm back here again; it seems that the IP doesn't show up as a proxy to Sailsbystars, but since the block is a bit unorthodox, he suggests I double-check with you for extenuating circumstances. Could you drop me a line when you've got a minute and let me know if there's any non-obvious reason for keeping the block in place? Cheers, ]&nbsp;]&zwj;] 08:31, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
	:Ah, that explains it. I saw he had a deleted article on Cheadle radio, but didn't realise it was the school radio, so still couldn't see the link to the school. Even so, I probably wouldn't have blocked. It's not the username that's the problem really, and the possibility that its a sixth former who might turn into a wikipedia editor is always there. I hope I didn't come over grumpy - apologies if I did. I do think we need to make a distinction between someone who misguidedly makes an article on 'my school radio', 'my mates who are going to be a famous band one day'- who might be persuaded to become good editors, and ] writing the article on the Acme Mining Corp. After all, the reason I started editing Misplaced Pages in earnest was a new editor asked me how to create an article (]) because I'd said I'd been to the festival. So that was a COI of sorts.--] (]) 11:52, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
			:: I do know why I blocked it - ] was used by one of the MMA sockers (see ]) and 245.6 must have shown up somewhere. I cannot recall why I thought it was a proxy though, it looks more like someone editing on the company dime. As long as your editor doesn't want to edit MMA articles, it should be OK to unblock. --] (]) 22:42, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
	::No, you didn't sound grumpy at all, at least to me. Reasonable people can have different viewpoints, and I see where you're coming from. After doing NPP for a while, everyone looks like a spammer ;). In all seriousness, though, I've come across a ''lot'' of spammers (I remember one guy literally posted his resume on ''nine'' different pages), and I probably looked a little too far into the username. Duly noted for the future, thanks. ] (]) 18:45, 11 December 2010 (UTC) <small>By the way, if you didn't know already, I'm the one who had the pleasure of tagging ] the first time. That is still ''the'' funniest thing I've come across doing NPP.</small>
			:::Cool; I'll take that on board. I think an unblock is reasonable at this point, but I'll add a caveat about the MMA thing. ]&nbsp;]&zwj;] 22:54, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
			== ''The Signpost'': 25 February 2013 ==
	== Blurb on you ==
			<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
	Hi Elen, I wonder whether you'd mind reviewing ] on you at ''The Signpost's'' "Election report", which is due for publication in not much more than 24 hours. I cobbled together the information from your RfA, your userpage, and wherever else I could, hoping it's not a plain repetition of the information about you that was part of the election process. Some of it might be a little out-of-date, and please check for balance, inclusion, tone, etc. We are happy if you edit it yourself, if necessary. Thanks. ] ] 17:01, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
			{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2013-02-25}}
	:Hi, blurb is fine, assuming Jimbo doesn't decide to disqualify me for being a pain in the ass. --] (]) 17:38, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
			</div><!--Volume 9, Issue 8-->
			<div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">
			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 04:54, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
			</div>
			<!-- EdwardsBot 0474 -->
	== Can you just delete? ==		== WikiCup 2013 February newsletter ==
			Round 1 is now over. The top 64 scorers have progressed to round 2, where they have been randomly split into eight pools of eight. At the end of April, the top two from each pool, as well as the 16 highest scorers from those remaining, will progress to round 3. Commiserations to those eliminated; if you're interested in still being involved in the WikiCup, able and willing reviewers will always be needed, and if you're interested in getting involved with other collaborative projects, take a look at the WikiWomen's Month discussed below.
	Hello,
			Round 1 saw 21 competitors with over 100 points, which is fantastic; that suggests that this year's competition is going to be highly competative. Our lower scores indicate this, too: A score of 19 was required to reach round 2, which was significantly higher than the 11 points required in 2012 and 8 points required in 2011. The score needed to reach round 3 will be higher, and may depend on pool groupings. In 2011, 41 points secured a round 3 place, while in 2012, 65 was needed. Our top three scorers in round 1 were:
	You recently blocked ]; can we dispense with the formalities and just delete all his pages? Nothing was of any value, and none of the pages have interest to anyone except this editor. {{watching}}
			#{{Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Participant4|Sturmvogel_66}}, primarily for an array of warship GAs.
	:I've got the translation essay as a copyvio. Does he have anything else currently existing? --] (]) 14:04, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
			#{{Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Participant4|Miyagawa}}, primarily for an array of did you knows and good articles, some of which were awarded bonus points.
			#{{Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Participant4|Casliber}}, due in no small part to ], a featured article awarded a total of 340 points. A joint submission with {{Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Participant4|Keilana}}, this is the highest scoring single article yet submitted in this year's competition.
			Other contributors of note include:
	:The book stub seems ok (all one sentence of it). The author of the book has an article which even names the book as one of his better known works, which doesn't appear to have been edited by Rungkan --] (]) 14:09, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
			*{{Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Participant4|Sven Manguard}}, whose ] is the first featured portal this year. The featured portal process is one of the less well-known featured processes, and featured portals have traditionally had little impact on WikiCup scores.
			*{{Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Participant4|Sasata}}, whose '']'' was the first featured article this year.
			*{{Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Participant4|Muboshgu}} and {{Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Participant4|Wizardman}}, who both claimed points for articles in the ] topic, the first topic points in the competition.
			*{{Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Participant4|Toa Nidhiki05}}, who claimed for the first full good topic with the ] topic.
			Featured topics have still played no part in this year's competition, but once again, a ] has been offered by {{Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Participant4|The C of E}}: did you know that there is a ] in Shropshire? With April Fools' Day during the next round, there will probably be a good chance of more unusual articles...
	== AE query ==
			March sees the ], a series of collaborative efforts to aid the ] to coincide with ] and ]. A number of WikiCup participants have already started to take part. The project has a ] of articles needing work on the topic of women's history. Those interested in helping out with the project can find articles in need of attention there, or, alternatively, add articles to the list. Those interested in collaborating on articles on women's history are also welcome to use the WikiCup talk page to find others willing to lend a helping hand. Another collaboration currently running is an ] to coordinate a number of Easter-themed did you know articles. Contributions are welcome!
	I see you have posted recently as an admin at AE. Perhaps you could have a look at ]? {{user|Jayen466}} (who previously has a history of making almost his entire evidence presentation in the ''Scientology'' arbcom case be an attack against me) is attempting to use my report against {{user|Delicious carbuncle}} as a desperate tactic to railroad in yet another irrelevant attack against me. Thoughts? Thank you for your time, -- ''']''' (]) 15:20, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
	: I will have a look when I get a mo. --] (]) 15:27, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
	::Thank you very much. It is quite disturbing the focus {{user|Jayen466}} has on me and on attacking me, his failed evidence presentation at ], is but one example. Please note the comments I cited by multiple admins in the AE thread about {{user|Delicious carbuncle}} from this recent incident. Thank you, -- ''']''' (]) 15:28, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
	Elen of the Roads , any thoughts? ;) -- ''']''' (]) 17:28, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
	:I agree that DC needs sanctioning, but I don't think this is quite the right sanction. If he appeals, I'll put more comment in. And I think you need to be a bit careful in posting requests like this on admin talkpages. You are in danger of making it look as if you are soliciting support, and this could be a potential problem if someone with more credibility than DC has a go at you. --] (]) 23:21, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
			A few final administrative issues. From now on, submission pages will need only a link to the article and a link to the nomination page, or, in the case of good article reviews, a link to the review ''only''. See your submissions' page for details. This will hopefully make updating submission pages a little less tedious. If you are concerned that your nomination—whether it is at good article candidates, a featured process, or anywhere else—will not receive the necessary reviews, please list it on ]. Questions are welcome on ], and the judges are reachable on their talk pages or by email. Good luck! <small>If you wish to start or stop receiving this newsletter, please feel free to add or remove yourself from ].</small> ] (] • ]) and ] (] • ]) ] (]) 01:28, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
	As the ANI thread has been hatted, I'll reply here. I am left to wonder how many admins Cirt wrote to. (Disclosure: I mailed Jimbo about this.) First, I don't "have it in" for Cirt. Cirt is a net positive, including the Scientology topic area, does a good job catching Shutterbug socks, and has learned to write neutrally about Scientology topics, although it is still sometimes ] getting Cirt to backtrack when she's gotten carried away. But I and other editors at times perceive a very tangible ] problem with Cirt, and a mode of dispute resolution focused on reporting opposing editors that are otherwise in good standing at admin boards. {{Userlinks|Njsustain}}, who nominated the ] puff piece for deletion, ended up at ANI, so did the person who nominated the ] puff piece IIRC; so did {{Userlinks|THF}} who opposed Cirt at ]. Going back a bit, {{User|Mattisse}} was accused of "hounding" Cirt and ended up at arbitration when she disagreed with Cirt at a GAR review of one of Cirt's articles, {{Userlinks|Pieter Kuiper}} ended up topic-banned at AE, {{Userlinks|PelleSmith}} was harassed into retirement, and now it's Delicious Carbuncle's turn. Admins are now saying editors are forbidden from criticising Cirt's editing. This would be fine if Cirt didn't at times do things like , or insist on listing celebrities like Gloria Gaynor and Chaka Khan as Scientologists because they'd taken a Scientology course at one point in their lives, or write pieces like ] in support of . The Misplaced Pages system is consensus and collaboration, not giving any one editor carte blanche. I am always happy to work with Cirt, whom I respect tremendously as an editor, who has many admirable qualities, and has taught me a lot; but I am consistently appalled by her prickliness and heavy-handed approach on articles she has an investment in. That's all. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 23:39, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
			<!-- EdwardsBot 0475 -->
	:I know virtually nothing about the Scientology kerfuffle, outside the fact that there were some problems with CoS trying to control the show. My advice above is meant in good faith - asking people to take a look in this way has the potential to blow up in Cirt's face. And I'm not convinced the DC sanction was the right one, but I'll wait for an appeal on that. ] (]) 23:53, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
			== Mentioned ==
	{{ec}} In addition to yourself, Cirt ] (at least) the following admins, using what would appear to me to be non-neutral messages: , , . --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 23:59, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
	:And that was just the AE round, while it was at ANI , , , and all got tapped with neutral, non-campaigning notifications. <i style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">]]]</i> 23:10, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
			on your Meta talk page from November, 2012 was mentioned. Thanks, ] (]) 18:33, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
	== Need to update ] ==
			:(But it had little enough to do with you.) ] &#124; ] 19:07, 1 March 2013 (UTC).
			== Why is the other editor guilty of editwarring when GabeMc made one more revert? ==
	Hi Elen. Congratulations on your election! On a more mundane note, you should update ] to record that you shortened Martintg's block based on his appeal at AE. Thanks, ] (]) 17:28, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
	:Will do. I got interrupted. Will do it shortly.--] (]) 18:43, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
			Again, absolutely nothing will be done against this tenditious editor!]
	== ''The Signpost'': 13 December 2010 ==
			It appears donating money to WP will allow an editor unlimited rights above everybody else like a paid for, God mode.
			How far will WP go to support itself, in its failing venture, even if it means losing ALL it's up and coming new editors due to unfair, nonsensical, disciplinary practices?
			Block me. IP's are cheap and ruining WP anyway (sarc). Soon only IPs will edit here.
			RipWikipedia? No ] (]) 22:47, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
			== Has Jhawkinson contributed to ''Swartz'' article as both editor and primary source? ==
			A ''Daily Mail Online'' article, “ is cited as a secondary source at
			<blockquote>Another reported that … the first public alert did not go out until 8:47am; ‘Not so timely,’ he observed.<sup></sup></blockquote>
			The ''Mail'' article gives the reporting person’s name: “John Hawkinson.”
			<blockquote>Another Twitter user John Hawkinson wrote that … the first public alert did not go out until 8.47am.&nbsp; ‘Not so timely,’ he wrote.</blockquote>
			A ] is listed as a frequent contributor to the ] article in WP.
			<blockquote>487 edits on article: ].&nbsp; Frequent users: ]; ]; …; ]; …</blockquote>
			Are ] and the same person? --] (]) 07:16, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
			:Could you, umm, clarify your thinking, regarding your raising of this issue? -- ] (]) 09:15, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
			::User ''A'' and user ''B'' contribute frequently to article ''C''.&nbsp; ''A'' quotes ''B'' in ''C''.&nbsp; Should the quote stay or go? --] (]) 00:04, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
			:::That would be a content dispute, right? Where do you think the first place to discuss it is? Where do you think the ''second'' place is? --] (]) 01:07, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
			::::The first place:&nbsp; Talk page (see ]).
			::::The second place:&nbsp; Don’t know.&nbsp; New at this.
			::::Also, there could be more than just a content dispute going on.
			::::<blockquote>I hope she's incorrect.&nbsp; Because if she is, outing an editor calls for a ban.</blockquote>
			::::Maybe he meant to say, “Because if she ''isn’t'' …”? --] (]) 01:33, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
			:::::<small>Double negatives. Don't you not unhate them? I know I don't ... or something. ] (]) 08:35, 6 March 2013 (UTC)</small>
			Happy ending. --] (]) 01:05, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
			== Please (urgently) check your e-mail ==
			Hi Elen. Hope you're well. Are you still subscribed to Oversight-l? If so, please urgently search your inbox for messages with the subject line beginning <code> </code>. The first message was sent on 2 March, and at the time of my writing this the newest message in the thread was also sent later on 2 March. All that's needed from you is one signature on the OTRS wiki, and the sooner the better. If you aren't subscribed to Oversight-l, please e-mail ArbCom or one of the more active oversighters (Beeblebrox or Fluffernutter might be a good choice) to find out what we need you to do. Thanks very much, ] ]] 20:57, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
			: Thanks AGK. I'd seen this a when it first came up, didn't deal with it immediately and then haven't been around for the last few weeks. I have now signed - and left a note on the OTRS admins page. Hope I'm not too late. I currently can't get onto OTRS itself, but that seems to be because the software I use to save passwords has flushed the password (and others - not a help). I'll have to get Keegan or someone to send me a replacement. --] (]) 01:33, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
			== Be my mentor still ==
			In the past years, I had very little interest in improving Misplaced Pages. In fact, I've hurt people more than I did not intend, and I was a fanatic deletionist. However, since I was unblocked with mentorship agreements, I thought I could do anything I want, but then I realize there is more to helping the cause than just stand there and do nothing except nominating for deletion. In fact, I have to reluctantly agree with terms, and so far I have interests in improving pages about topics more than just deleting material. Lately, I have requested renaming of ], and I created season pages, like ], and improved '']''.
			However, I haven't used ] for half a year (or something like that) because I no longer have interest in ] requesting deletion on things that need a lot of improvement. Neverthless, I think that ] must go. Lately, I've not been receiving replies. I would hope that the page is in your watchlist, isn't it? I wonder if you want to continue as my mentor. If not, then surely I can find your replacement if necessary.
			'''Note: This post is intended for only active and semi-active people.''' --] (]) 06:00, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
			:Yes it is on my watchlist George, and I apologise if I've missed anything I should have responded to. I've been very busy at work these past three months, and not very active on Misplaced Pages. But you've been doing so well, getting the balance right in your various suggestions, and working so well with other editors in the area, that I thought you probably didn't need a mentor most of the time.
			:I'm still here if you need me. Post your questions on this page, if you have anything you want to run by me. I will respond to them, or maybe one of my talk page watchers will respond (although not the rude IP I hope). But I think most of your suggestions are sound, and you are much more confident if other people have different opinions, so by and large I would say to just be bold and go with what you think.
			:I do agree with you about ]. Misplaced Pages is not a repository for every bit of trivia scraped off the back of dvd boxsets. ] (]) 23:30, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
			==You've got mail!==
			{{you've got mail|subject=|ts=15:33, 7 March 2013 (UTC)}}
			~''] ]'' 15:33, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
			== ''The Signpost'': 04 March 2013 ==
	<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">		<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
	{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2010-12-13}}		{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2013-03-04}}
	</div><!--Volume 6, Issue 50-->		</div><!--Volume 9, Issue 9-->
	<div style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">''']''' &middot; ] &middot; ] &middot; ] (]) 00:42, 14 December 2010 (UTC)</div>		<div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">
			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 20:32, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
			</div>
	<!-- EdwardsBot 0091 -->		<!-- EdwardsBot 0479 -->
			== ''The Signpost'': 11 March 2013 ==
	== Email ==
			<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
	{{you've got mail}}
			{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2013-03-11}}
			</div><!--Volume 9, Issue 10-->
			<div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">
			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 07:32, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
			</div>
			<!-- EdwardsBot 0480 -->
			==You've got mail!==
	It's not urgent. Feel free to read and reply whenever you get the time. Best, '''<font color="navy">]</font>''' ''(<font color="green">]</font>)'' 06:42, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
			{{you've got mail|subject=|ts=07:18, 18 March 2013 (UTC)}}
			''']]]''' 07:18, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
			== Paul Bedson ==
	:Ditto (might be unrelated to NW's though). ] (])
			You probably recall this editor. Last March you unblocked him and later blocked him. When you unblocked him he was denying sock puppetry. Looks like he was lying. See ] - he started his Nasorean sock in February. I hate it when I AGF and get bitten, don't you? ] (]) 22:02, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
	Replied to both ] (]) 11:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
			:That's a pain in the patoot! --] (]) 22:02, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
			== ''The Signpost'': 18 March 2013 ==
	== Talkback ==
			<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
	{{talkback|Barts1a}}
			{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2013-03-18}}
			</div><!--Volume 9, Issue 11-->
			<div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">
			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 07:10, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
			</div>
			<!-- EdwardsBot 0484 -->
			==I mentioned you..==
	Again. ] ] ] Merry Christmas to all! 11:35, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
			... in , as Fram has reverted ] back to the "scarlet letter" state. ] &#124; ] 11:26, 23 March 2013 (UTC).
			:...which I had already said to Elen (look for "Fram" higher on this talk page). ] (]) 12:30, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
			::The thing here is that everywhere else on the internet (never mind the real world) the basic difference between "socking" (which implies deceit and attempts to post falsely as someone else) and "posting while banned" (which is not complying with a particular restriction but is not necessarily deceitful) is widely acknowledged. The former can be a subset of the latter but not necessarily so. At some point, essentially because of how the whole sockpuppeting policy on Misplaced Pages developed historically, Misplaced Pages missed that distinction. But that's the usual inertia of inadequacy on Misplaced Pages not how things actually are, i.e. usual Misplaced Pages stupidity. In other words, this isn't really sock puppeting. It's "I'm banned, but I'll post anyway, letting everyone know who this is".
			::The surreal thing about it is that calling this sock puppeting and taking actions to "punish" the user, somehow flips things on their head by assuming that a particular online/Wikipedia account is *more real* than the actual person behind it. It's sort of crazy and it creeps me out frankly. I'm gonna undo these bad faithed retaliatory actions.<span style="color:Blue">]</span><span style="color:Orange">]</span> 02:46, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
			:::Actually, he ''didn't'' let everyone know who he was. I, for example, didn't know that the IP was a banned editor until quite some time later. --] (]) 02:57, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
	== Glaucus ==
			::::Demiurge, will you just please FUCK OFF. Please. Really.<span style="color:Blue">]</span><span style="color:Orange">]</span> 04:54, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
	{{Talkback|Glaucus}}
			:::::Cause that's not incivil or a personal attack or blockable at all Marek... I'd think you watch ANI or related boards closely enough to know that is a blockable comment, if not by itself, when combined with your previous uses of such style. ]<span style="position:absolute"><sup>]</sup></span><sub>]</sub> 05:02, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
	== WP:ANI ==
	There is a discussion about your conduct at ]. &mdash; <small>]<span style="font-weight:bold;">&nbsp;·</span>&#32; ]</small> 17:19, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
	:Hi Elen. How did I miss this? I believe you took a brilliant call. On the negative side, Timneu22 has had a background of biting newcomers and speedy'ing articles on lack of notability claim despite the claims being very evident. ] and ] have been instances where I've evidenced Timneu's ] and faulty CSD and AfD nominations. He did call me an while replying once to my message when I informed him that I was declining his speedy; I noticed he had also used terms like , , and while replying to other administrators and editors when he was notified about not re-adding prod templates that are removed. Some weeks ago, I had to give him a single-block warning for calling ] . On the positive side, Timneu22 does relentlessly tag new pages and I hope that with experience, Timneu gains clue about which articles not to tag and why new editors should never be bitten. Overall, I singularly have had quite a handful of net negative experiences from him. I do hope other editors don't have such experiences; and so really appreciate your pointing out his mistake. Sorry for this elongated message, but as I voted for you, I believed it was important for you to know.] ] 06:41, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
	::Thanks for the vote of confidence :) I have encountered this chap before - on the one hand, I do want to encourage the NPPers, on the other he is way too aggressive. The world will not end - really, it won't, if Misplaced Pages has a few badly written articles for a few days. If he pulls a stunt like this again, I will have to do something, but hopefully he has learned his lesson, albeit with a bad grace. --] (]) 11:58, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
			::Hmm, I guess I won't, since the page(s) were fully protected. Why exactly is that? I could understand semi-protection so new usernames - who might be Peter Damian - couldn't undo it. But why prevent Wikipedians in good standing to disagree and undo these actions? That's seems like a heavy handed abuse of admin tools right there.<span style="color:Blue">]</span><span style="color:Orange">]</span> 02:49, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
	== Muhammad (the pedophile) ==
			:::Not only were the IPs not straightforward about who they were, ] wasn't either, which resulted in a rather upset and disappointed ] who had worked with him. As for the protection (which wasn't done by me), I guess that it is there to prevent "editors in good standing" from e.g. removing valid sockpuppet tags. ] (]) 07:42, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
	why you guys are so much interested to show that Muhammad was a great man. Don't you have any idea what happens to the women in Islamic countries? Read either the Shariah laws or watch the news.
			::::Scarlet letter tag now removed by ]. ] &#124; ] 14:48, 25 March 2013 (UTC).
	Because of sufficient reliable evidence that Muhammad did bad to women, I think *he was bad to women* should me mentioned in his main page ;)
	--] (]) 17:27, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
	:Ah Kira. But Mohammed lived 1400 years ago. The article is about him. It's not about modern day Islam. See my note on the talkpage of the article, and take it from there. --] (]) 17:36, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
	== Hello ==		==WP:AN discussion==
			A discussion which relates to actions or comments made by you can be found at ]. ] (]) 15:54, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
			== ''The Signpost'': 25 March 2013 ==
	No problem at all. --]</sup>]] 16:37, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
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	== ''The Signpost'': 20 December 2010 ==
			{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2013-03-25}}
			</div><!--Volume 9, Issue 12-->
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			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 22:51, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
			</div>
			<!-- EdwardsBot 0488 -->
			== ''The Signpost'': 01 April 2013 ==
	<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">		<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
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	</div><!--Volume 6, Issue 51-->		</div><!--Volume 9, Issue 13-->
	<div style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">''']''' &middot; ] &middot; ] &middot; ] (]) 01:47, 21 December 2010 (UTC)</div>		<div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">
			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 13:19, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
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			== FWIW ==
	== Well that was the problem. ==
			regarding and , please see . ] <sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 23:20, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
	{{trout}}
	Apparently because of , you broke access by the HBC AIV helperbots to the UAA/BOT page. The way to do it is by changing {{tlx|adminbacklog}} to {{tlx|noadminbacklog}}. That's what the bots do.
			== ''The Signpost'': 08 April 2013 ==
	Apologies if you find the "trout" message offensive. It's just meant as a joke. ]]] 22:51, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
			<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
	:By the way, I moved the section upwards to ensure it doesn't get in the way when Christmas is here. ]]] 23:03, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
			{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2013-04-08}}
			</div><!--Volume 9, Issue 14-->
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			* ''']'''
			* ]
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			* ] (]) 07:14, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
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	== The Fat Man ==		== Elucidate ==
			You elucidated me on Check User, and I quoted it ]. Also: I miss you! --] (]) 11:08, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
	Matthew (tfm) was traveling today and did post that message on his talk page from the airplane. Kindly revert your deletion of kablammo's message, which was not disruptive in any way.--] (]) 23:26, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
			== I hope you are still with us ==
	:As mentioned on my talk page, I have received an e-mail from TFMWNCB confirming that the posts were his. ] (]) 00:44, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
			I see you have not edited in over three weeks. I hope that the fact that the community made appalling mistakes in the past election has not caused you to abandon us.--] (]) 17:31, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
	:: EotR, coming here to say same ... many uninformed folks have been spreading many uninformed stories about TFM and the nature of his participation on the Wiki (and many of us folks who ''do'' work on content are less willing to do so considering how one of our own has been treated by the admin corp ... just sayin' :) ] (]) 00:47, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
			:"Ndovu wawili wakipigana, ziumiazo na nyasi." (Swahili: ''When the elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers.'') I really appreciate the calm yet firm way that Elen of the Roads deals with situations where some of those involved are doing everything they can to disrupt the process. I am really hoping that this will end up just being a well-deserved break. --] (]) 18:37, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
	:::TFM has been blocked and had the ability to edit his talk page removed. If one accepts that the anon posting to TFM’s page from the air — and to this page and ] once on the ground — was indeed TFM, then to edit from an IP address not caught up in the block is to ] that block. Posting his greeting was ] and was appropriately removed. — ''']]''' 06:13, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
			== French copyright law concerning 1890 poster / Reporting data on unsigned, undated American poster circa 1890-1911 ==
	::::"are less willing to do so considering how one of our own has been treated by the admin corp" Huh? Unless there is suddenly a ''grand union and league of content creators'' that somehow has absolutely no intersection whatever with "the admin corps", then this implied threat of downing tools unless the rules are bent for "one of our own", is pretty ridiculous. --] (]) 13:11, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
			Dear Elen,
	== I appreciate the links ==
			You were able to help me with a copyright question about three years ago (thank you very much), so I turn to you again with two other questions. First: I would like to upload to Wiki Commons a photo of a poster by ] for the pantomime ''L'Enfant prodigue'' by Michel Carré ''fils'' (1890). Unfortunately, Willette's date of death was February 4, 1926, which seems to prohibit free use of the image. But does it make a difference that the poster was reproduced in Ernest Maindron's ''Les Affiches illustr&eacute;es (1886-1895)'' in Paris in the year 1896 (this would be my photographic source)?
	Elen, I removed part of your comment because you haven't read all the discussion in the page history that I had just removed. I appreciated the links.—] (]) 11:33, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
	:OK, I deleted both your comments per your request. Please take me off your watchlist. Thanks.—] (]) 14:22, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
			My second question concerns a theater poster: I acquired a photo of it from the New York Public Library at Lincoln Center. The poster is undated and unsigned (though it seems to bear the name "J. Morgan & Co., U.S.A." in faint script bottom-right). It advertises a pantomime, ''Superba'', by the ], that played only in North America from October 1, 1890, to April 22, 1911. I'm fairly certain I have free use of the image--but how do I go about dealing with questions about its authorship, date, and so on?
	== Christmas Card==
	]
	{{clear}}
	<center><span style="color: red; font-weight:bold">Merry Christmas</span></center>
	<center>At this festive time, I would like to say a very special thank you to my fellow editors, and take the time to wish you and your loved ones a very Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year. And, in case you can't wait until the big day, I've left you each three special presents, click to unwrap :) ] (]) 10:10, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
	]{{Clear}}
	]{{Clear}}
	]{{Clear}}</center>
	<div style="border-style:solid; border-color:green; background-color:red; border-width:2px; text-align:left; padding:8px;" class="plainlinks">]
			I'm very grateful for whatever help you can give me. ] 10:42, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
	] <sup>(])</sup> has given you a Christmas tree! Christmas trees promote ] and are a great way to spread holiday cheer. Merry Christmas!
			:Elen's on wikibreak we hope right now, so let me take a shot at answering it. For the French image, I would use the copyright tags from Commons:<nowiki>{{PD-old-80}} and {{PD-1923}}</nowiki>. I've also been to that library, it is quite good except you get items at a very slow pace! As far as I'm concerned, posters are published when they are posted, especially since it is traditionally fairly easy to obtain such things when the show closes. I think <nowiki>{{PD-US}} </nowiki> is fine and I would, in the author field say while it is unknown, there is writing (or printing) on the image, and mention the Morgan thing. The authorship is irrelevant to the copyright if we accept that it was published before 1923. As for the date, post the info you have on when it ran, mentioning the source of the information and a link if available. If there is any question raised, come talk to me and I'll weigh in. I doubt there will be.--] (]) 21:51, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
	Spread the WikiLove by adding <nowiki>{{subst:User:The Utahraptor/Christmas tree}}</nowiki> to any editor's talk page with a friendly message. <br />
			== A polite request ==
			Hello Elen of the Roads! I have found that you have oversight tools. I would like to ask you to oversight , because it is constantly used by others to attack, denigrate, harass and provoke wikipedian Russavia, like . --] (]) 11:23, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
			: {{tps}} That doesn't seem to meet the formal requirements for oversight. Russavia is responsible for any comments they make - hiding them and pretending they didn't exist certainly is not to the benefit of the project (]<span style="font-family:Forte;color:black">]</span>]) 11:26, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
			::What benefit do the project have from this comment? Will we get more editors? No. Honestly, I don't see any benefits, only disadvantages. --] (]) 11:56, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
			:::For a shiney new user you get around a bit. ] (]) 12:00, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
			::::It is quite useless to act on this request because there are other statements that I am sure russavia wants to oversight, for instance this one: . ] (]) 15:21, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
			== ''The Signpost'': 15 April 2013 ==
			<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
			{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2013-04-15}}
			</div><!--Volume 9, Issue 15-->
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			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 20:20, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
	</div>		</div>
			<!-- EdwardsBot 0503 -->
			== ] ==
	{{Talkback|mrwho00tm}}
			A matter you helped resolve, for a time, is heating up again. Would you please review ] and see if you think I'm out of line? Or if anyone else is. I think it's someone else, but a review of my edits is probably necessary as well. Thanks. ] (]) 22:18, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
	== Thank you! ==
			== ''The Signpost'': 22 April 2013 ==
	Hi Elen of the Roads, Thank you for . I have always known you'd make a great arbitrator, and I voted for you. Best wishes.--] (]) 22:30, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
	:Well, we seem to give a lot of chances to incivil trolls, it annoyed me that people weren't prepared to find a way with an editor that contributed so much and where the problems were connected to something close to the heart. Glad to see you back. I hope things work out well from now on - I hope these restrictions just allow you to get on with the project, but if you feel anyone is starting trying to game it, do contact me or another admin, rather than risk more trouble. --] (]) 10:50, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
	{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
	|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | {{#ifeq:{{{2}}}|alt|]|]}}
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			</div><!--Volume 9, Issue 16-->
			<div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">
			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 12:40, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
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			<!-- EdwardsBot 0505 -->
			== ''The Signpost'': 29 April 2013 ==
			<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
	|rowspan="2" |
			{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2013-04-29}}
	|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar'''
			</div><!--Volume 9, Issue 17-->
	|-
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	|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Thank you,Elen! ] (]) 21:03, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
			* ''']'''
	|}
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 06:17, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
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	== ''The Signpost'': 27 December 2010 ==		== ''The Signpost'': 06 May 2013 ==
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	</div><!--Volume 6, Issue 52-->		</div><!--Volume 9, Issue 18-->
	<div style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">''']''' &middot; ] &middot; ] &middot; ] (]) 12:30, 28 December 2010 (UTC)</div>		<div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">
			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 18:20, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
			</div>
	<!-- EdwardsBot 0095 -->		<!-- EdwardsBot 0518 -->
	==Thanks==		==G5 deletion==
	At least you warned him, unlike your esteemed colleague CMLITC who blustered and then said nothing. Too bad LHvU's reaction was essentially "FOAD, I'll say what I like." Thanks for stepping in. ] (]) 17:01, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
	:Hopefully he doesn't say anything quite so...unhelpful...again. I've said before that I can't normally see the point in blocking where two people have got stuck into each other on a talkpage, and it's now hours later - but admins on noticeboards where a civility block is being discussed ought to behave better, and there needs to be consequences for bad behaviour.--] (]) 17:58, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
			I have nominated the article G5 (Universities) for deletion, but I am not sure whether I have completed all the steps, and wondered if you may be able to help as an admin/experienced user. thanks] (]) 00:58, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
	== Barnstar ==
			== ''The Signpost'': 13 May 2013 ==
	{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #ffffff;"
	|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | ]
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	|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Cleanup Barnstar'''
	|-
	|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | For your assistance in cleaning out ]. ] &#124; ] 04:28, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
	|}
			<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
	:Oh, and a very happy new year! ] &#124; ] 04:28, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
			{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2013-05-13}}
			</div><!--Volume 9, Issue 19-->
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			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 02:14, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
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			<!-- EdwardsBot 0520 -->
			== ''The Signpost'': 20 May 2013 ==
	== Hogmanay greeting ==
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	{| style="background-color: #e7efef; border: dashed 2px lightblue;"
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	| ]
			</div><!--Volume 9, Issue 20-->
	| Thank you very much for working with me in 2010 to make the encyclopedia a better place. Regardless of any disagreements we may have had, I want to wish you all the very best for 2011. I look forward to working with you, and I hope for health and happiness to you and your family in the year to come. I therefore send you this ], so you can celebrate, whether it is ] or ] where you are. Warmest regards, --] (]) 04:58, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
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	|}
			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 07:40, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
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			<!-- EdwardsBot 0525 -->
			== Hoax Region ==
	== A little advice on a possible hoax? ==
			I have found a hoax region "Upstate California" with which the creating ] seems to be emotionally and personally involved. I am unable to verify that the economic entity on that page is real. I have lived in this area since 2001, I have never heard the term used for any part of California except by the "Upstate Economic Development" group which is being promoted on this wiki page even though it is not one of the legally constituted Economic Development groups in the region. I am unable to find that the term is in any form of wide-spread use other that for the mentions given on that page. I have read several of the documents from end to end and I still don't find this to be of much importance, other than to the people who are promoting it - and promoting themselves. A simple Google search turns up 3 things: Wiki page, Forum of "whoever heard of Upstate California" and the website of the UED, which has very little on it. I don't think many pages link to this page, mostly because it's not a real entity in this part of ] which is usually referred to as the "Northstate" region as correctly stated on the Northern California wikipage. Looking forward to any assistance you can render with this person and their self-promotion. With best wishes, ] (]) 17:25, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
	Hi.
			:{{tps}} Elen's been offline since March (I don't know why) so you may need to seek assistance elsewhere. <small>]</small> 23:55, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
			== ''The Signpost'': 27 May 2013 ==
	As a relative noob, I'm not quite sure of the best way to handle this, so I thought I'd ask advice from someone more experienced. Browsing randomly through 'recent changes' I came across this: ]. Now normally, I'd not be overly interested in what goes on in random User space, but I took a peek. Over the last couple of weeks, Smith20111 has created what looks like a competent enough article about a musical talent show, which he/she describes as "the biggest viewing reality tv show in the United States with over 20 million views in every week". Now as a Brit (and someone not overly interested in 'realty TV') it's possible I was unaware of this, but it somehow didn't ring true. Having checked the links, they either seem to go nowhere, or actually link to Misplaced Pages itself. Google doesn't seem to show much either, other than this , which seems to be an unrelated online video competition.
			<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
	I suppose there may be a perfectly reasonable explanation for this - perhaps the editor is practising his/her editing skills, or perhaps I'm merely being paranoid, stupid, or both, but it looks to me like a hoax in the making. I was wondering if you could take an informal look, and then perhaps advise on the best course of action? ] (]) 02:22, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
			{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2013-05-27}}
	:Check this user's userspace. There is an entire walled garden of hoaxes in there, including hoax images. Keep watching for the next five minutes or so. --] (]) 02:40, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
			</div><!--Volume 9, Issue 21-->
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			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 07:36, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
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			<!-- EdwardsBot 0535 -->
			== ''The Signpost'': 05 June 2013 ==
	::(TPS comment)... It could be ]. I deleted a boatload of hoaxes he created a couple weeks ago and blocked some sockpuppets. These new ones are better-developed and better stylistically but he may be improving his hoaxing style; at any rate, the subject matter is closely related. ] ] 02:46, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
			<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
	::For example, compare with and tell me what you think. ] ] 02:48, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
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			</div><!--Volume 9, Issue 23-->
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			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 22:40, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
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			<!-- EdwardsBot 0542 -->
			== ''The Signpost'': 12 June 2013 ==
			<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
			{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2013-06-12}}
			</div><!--Volume 9, Issue 24-->
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			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 06:44, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
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			<!-- EdwardsBot 0547 -->
			== Email ==
			{{umbox
	:::So I'm either not paranoid, or I am, but just not this time. ;-) I'd not seen the 'All pages with prefix' tool: useful. Regarding what to do about it, there is actually something to be said for waiting until any of this gets moved out of user space before pouncing: the more work they've put in, the more it will hurt - especially if we tell them that they've been watched for some time... ] (]) 03:05, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
			| image = {{#if:|Tweet-new.png|Mail-message-new.svg}}
	:::: Nah. They've spent two weeks, all over christmas on this lot. And I believe it definitely is Jake Picasso, based on a fairly rudimentary application of the Checkuser tool. ] (]) 03:07, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
			| text = Hello{{#ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}|User talk|, {{#titleparts:{{PAGENAME}}|1}}}}. {{#if:|Check your Twitter—you've got a tweet!|Please check your e-mail &ndash; you've got mail!}} {{#if:|The subject is {{{subject}}}.}}<br /><span class="plainlinks" style="font-size: 88%; font-weight: normal;">{{#if:|Message added {{{ts}}}.}} It may take a few minutes from the time the e-mail is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can at any time by removing the {{tl|You've got mail}} or {{tl|YGM}} template.</span> &mdash; ] ''(])'' 14:19, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
			}}
	== ''The Signpost'': 3 January 2011 ==		== ''The Signpost'': 19 June 2013 ==
	<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">		<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
	{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2011-01-03}}		{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2013-06-19}}
	</div><!--Volume 7, Issue 1-->		</div><!--Volume 9, Issue 25-->
	<div style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">''']''' &middot; ] &middot; ] &middot; ] (]) 00:25, 4 January 2011 (UTC)</div>		<div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">
			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 21:31, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
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	<!-- EdwardsBot 0099 -->		<!-- EdwardsBot 0553 -->
	== Ho hum. Here's another odd one... ==		== ''The Signpost'': 26 June 2013 ==
			<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
	Given your rapid disentanglement of the imaginary singer Heather Vasey (etc, etc,...) hoax yesterday, I hope you don't mind me asking you to take a quick look at this ], and this: ], its author. Been around for some time, but rather lacking in links to the outside world (other than Misplaced Pages mirrors), I suspect. Once again, a second opinion might be wise before I commit myself to anything drastic. Actually, I'd suspect delusions of grandeur rather than hoax this time...<p>(P.S. feel free to pass this on elsewhere if you think I'm being a pain. Or tell me to sort it out myself...) ] (]) 03:46, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
			{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2013-06-26}}
			</div><!--Volume 9, Issue 25-->
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			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 20:33, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
			</div>
			<!-- EdwardsBot 0557 -->
			== United States editor dispute ==
	:<span class="plainlinks">Would it be legitimated by the fact that it is for sale at both the ] (see ''''''), at ] (see ''''''), and Amazon U.K. (see '''''')? Also, its Belgian publisher — the aforementioned ] — also maintains a homepage for it ''''''.<p>Finally, of ] at '''' that is not a mirror of Misplaced Pages, although it is . Hope this helps!</span> — ''']]''' 09:48, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
			Hello Elen of the Roads
	::Interestingly, though the ''Encyclopedia'' article seems almost certainly written by an involved party, it doesn't entirely shy away from self-awareness:<blockquote>There has been several reviews of the Encyclopedia. One of the harshest criticisms came from the American Library Association in 1987: "The board considers the ''Encyclopedia of World Problems and Human Potential'' a problematic monument to idiosyncrasy, confusion, and obfuscation that certainly is not worth purchasing at any price."</blockquote>…Just as well we give Misplaced Pages away for free, eh? ] (]) 01:13, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
			:A certain VictorD7 editor has deleted good faith edits that used Alan Taylor (2001), ''American Colonies'', as references. The current article ] in the ''Settlements'' section has no references in the first paragraph. VictorD7 is currently not allowing me to make any edits in the United States article in the ''Settlements'' section. I believe this is article ownership in violation of wikipedia policy. You can check the History record of the United States article to verify my statements. Thanks. ] (]) 02:14, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
			:A reading of the US talk page will show that the above accusation is garbage. Cmguy777 tried to make a significant edit that included deleting an entire paragraph of basic, undisputed info (without warning) that had been in the article for a long time, and I reverted him, asking him to discuss it first on the Talk Page. That's all. So far his edit has zero support and has already been criticized by another editor. This is a non-issue. ] (]) 06:19, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
	:::<span class="plainlinks">I don’t see how the quotation from the wikiarticle provided is indicative of self-awareness or writing by an involved party. Moreover, it is a direct quote with citation given.<p>Not all such articles are written by involved persons, persons with ]. Often a wikiarticle is created, or later expanded, by a Wikipedian who has an interest in a particular topic, or who comes across the wikiarticle, finds it interesting, and goes to work bettering it. In this particular instance, a review of the shows that the article was created in April 2005 as a stub and expanded bit-by-bit to a larger stub up to November 2008. Then, beginning in November 2010 and up to the present, the article has been expanded to a full wikiarticle, no longer a stub. Yes, most if not all of that work since November has been performed by one Wikipedian. But, again, that does not mean an involved party. One should expect that if an editor is drawn to a topic for personal reasons, and those reasons are positive in nature, then the resultant work is also going to be positive in nature. This is especially the case when an editor feels a personal (albeit disinterested) connection to the subject matter.<p>When one follows the links on the userpage of the editor who has, in ], expanded the article, one discovers the source of his interest in the subject matter:<blockquote>In September 1977, I find the '''', a monumental work of the . At last, here is a large-scale inventory of what goes wrong and of what can be done. This is the first significant reinforcement that I find for my ideas and projects. Thanks to heaven, I am not alone. However, after two years of surveys, it is clear to me that the specific idea of a global approach concerning suffering has never been realized yet.</blockquote>Is it any wonder that a person for whom the subject holds so much personal importance would, again in ], write an article that, ''prima facie'', might seem to have been written by someone connected to the subject?<p>If another editor, later coming across the article, thinks that it is too positive and not sufficiently balanced, then it is up to that other editor to roll up his sleeves, dust off his keyboard, perform a literature search, and get writing, providing the balance to the article that he finds lacking. Thanks! — ''']]''' 03:32, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
			::Again VictorD7, your response is evidence of your continued manipulation and obsession of any edits I make in the article. Kindly let Elen of the Roads make the decision if this is a non issue. ] (]) 15:50, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
	== If you have a moment ==
			:::Regretfully, she seems to have left us, or more precisely, was driven off by that whole thing last year. There are people who I blame very much for this.--] (]) 17:37, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
	Could you check ] and compare it to ]. The image deleted from here was from a source that said it could be used "for non-commercial use only", but back in August I see that indicated ] was being redirected to ] in order to "help during transfer to Commons." If ], which is at Wikimedia Commons, is the same image than the source needs to be checked/compared to what was deleted from here. Thanks. ] (]) 01:27, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
	:Same image definitely. Attribution for the deleted version is as follows:-
	<nowiki>{{self|cc-by-nd}}</nowiki>
	Chris Stewart, Sony Cyber-Shot, taken at Penny Arcade Expo on a media pass. http://flickr.com/photos/castewar/2819623354/sizes/m/in/set-72157607064402529/ I've set the rights on Flickr to attribution, no derivatives, CC.
	:Hope this helps --] (]) 13:06, 5 January 2011 (UTC)		Thanks Wehwalt, if Elen of the Roads has been "driven off" I suppose there is no need for further comments on this page. ] (]) 19:07, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
			:Regrettably, except for the purpose of letting people know, there is not.--] (]) 19:17, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
	== Request for undelete ==
			== You have mail (re: Inactivity) ==
	Dear Elen of the Road,
	I am the Information officer of IMEKO, a notable non-profit organization of metrologists. The article "IMEKO" I have written does not contain any advertisement, but only information about the aims and objectives of IMEKO, it's structure, history and activities. So I would like to ask you to undelete and recover this article. If there are objections regarding the contents, please tell me and I will try to improve the article. Thanks! (] (]) 18:10, 7 January 2011 (UTC))
	: Replied on your userpage. --] (]) 20:54, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
			Hi Elen. I hope everything is okay. You've been inactive for several months, so I've dropped you an e-mail with the usual advance warning that your CU/OS permissions will be revoked if you continue to be missing from Misplaced Pages. Please let us know soon if you intend to return at some point in the near future. ] ]] 10:27, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
	{{Talkback|User talk:Information officer}}
			I hope you decide to come back sometime. --] (] · ] · ]) 19:56, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
	== Find A Grave, again ==
			== Just to let you know ==
	If you're not yet heartily sick of the endless discussions about linking to ], then an effort to write down the usual arguments (similar to ]) has begun at ].
			You have been mentioned at ] X] (]) 20:24, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
	You are being notified because I happened to notice your name in a previous discussion, and because I think you're patient. Anyone's welcome, especially if they have that rare talent of turning apparent mountains back into molehills. ] (]) 22:51, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
	:Sigh. When I get a mo I'll take a look. I think collecting up a list of these evergreens is a good idea. --] (]) 23:37, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
			== ''The Signpost'': 03 July 2013 ==
	==Fair use logo==
	There is a problem with two uploads of fair use logos. I don't understand the cause; nor do I know how to respond constructively.<p>Please see "purpose of use" section<br>
	* ]
	* ]
	Both have <font color=red><b><big>{{{1}}}</big></b></font>.<p>Perhaps I should have been able to figure this out without asking for help? What were some of the steps I might have taken? --] (]) 22:45, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
	:The problem appears to be with the template logo.fur - the big red 1s indicate the template is expecting something that isn't there. Templates aren't something I'm particularly good at editing, so I'm likely to screw it up worse. Can I suggest that you post at ], as a number of the editors there are very good with templates, and should be able to offer assistance. It's a good place to go if you make an edit using a template, and the outcome isn't what you expected. It also turns round answers quickly. --] (]) 13:13, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
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	::Yes, thank you -- see . --] (]) 15:25, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
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			* ''']'''
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 22:26, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
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			== ''The Signpost'': 10 July 2013 ==
	==Correction==
	Do you mind if I just mention a factual inaccuracy on your user page? Sarn Helen is the name of a road, not the name of the saint :-) ] (]) 19:04, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
	:Actually, it's both. Sarn Elen is or has been the name of several roads in Wales<ref>{{cite web|title= Historic Landscape Characterisation|url=http://www.cpat.org.uk/projects/longer/histland/hiraeth/mhtransp.htm|publisher=Clwyd-Powys Archaeological Trust|accessdate=10 January 2011}}</ref>, particularly the Roman road between Aberconwy and Carmaethen. However, the roads are supposed in popular folklore to have been built by ] who is sometimes confused with ], the mother of ] and finder of the true cross.<ref>{{cite book|title=The Mabinogion|year=1977|publisher=Penguin|isbn=014044.3223|author=trans J. Gantz|authorlink=The Dream of Maxen Wledig|page=124-125}}</ref> A more modern interpretation is that Elen, like ] was a Welsh goddess, a patron of roads and tracks. <ref>{{cite book|last=Matthews|first=Caitlin|title=King Arthur and the Goddess of the Land: The Divine Feminine in the Mabinogion}}</ref> In the Mabinogion, she is referred to as Elen Lluyddog or Elen of the Hosts, but in the more modern neo-pagan tradition she is more often referred to as Elen of the Ways or Elen of the Roads. <ref>{{cite book|title=The Western Way |year=1994|publisher=Penguin|isbn=01401.94622|url=http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=nS4bKatWtxIC&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=sarn+elen&source=bl&ots=N-IsCbf_Bm&sig=R2-jkAjvRga9aMw_LN079zSI49o&hl=en&ei=DnIrTfzKB5O6hAe83vi0Ag&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB0Q6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=sarn%20elen&f=false|author=Caitlin Matthews|coauthors=John Matthews|page=85}}</ref> This is a deliberate conflation of Elen Lluyddog - who seems to be a semi-historical person - with a supposed reindeer goddess Elen who gave her name to various roads and tracks in Wales.<ref>{{cite journal|last=Hollins|first=Blackbird|title=Goddess, Saint and Ancestor - Elen of the Hosts|journal=Caer Feddwyd|year=2006|url=http://www.traditionalharp.co.uk/Caer_Feddwyd/articles/Elen.htm}}</ref> --] (]) 21:17, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
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			* ] (]) 07:52, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
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	<div style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">''']''' &middot; ] &middot; ] &middot; ] (]) 05:01, 11 January 2011 (UTC)</div>		<div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">
			* ''']'''
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			* ] (]) 16:36, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
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	== Please look at IMEKO ==		== ''The Signpost'': 24 July 2013 ==
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	{{Talkback|User talk:Information officer}} im-in-o 13:44, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
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			* ] (]) 20:17, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
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			== ''The Signpost'': 31 July 2013 ==
	== User:MadKingChucky ==
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	I notice that, back in November, you had given ] a final warning for inserting unsourced, defamatory material into BLPs. Well, I just noticed he'd done the same thing yesterday: . I leave it to you for follow-up, in case you wish to take action. Cheers, ] (]) 22:52, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
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	:He can cool his heels for 48hrs. --] (]) 23:27, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
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			* ] (]) 02:28, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
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			== ''The Signpost'': 07 August 2013 ==
	== Perfectly suitable addition to Jesus article ==
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	Please do not revert sourced material because you dislike it. You're comment that my addition is, "not a suitable addition at that point in the article" is completely biased. Considering that you left the material that gives the Judaic and Muslim perspective on Jesus, you obviously believe that ''is'' the right place in the article to mention other group's perspectives on Jesus. You are being prejudiced and biased by removing only the non-religious view. ] (]) 14:07, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
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	:Discuss on talkpage please, as per ]. --] (]) 14:10, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
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	==Talkback==
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	{{talkback|Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case|Request concerning Andrei_nacu|ts=16:21, 17 January 2011 (UTC)}}
			* ''']'''
	I updated my statement regarding the gravity of the situation and why I believe is not premature. You may wish to review it. Thanks ] (]) 16:21, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
			* ]
			* ]
			* ] (]) 23:57, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
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	<div style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">''']''' &middot; ] &middot; ] &middot; ] (]) 18:38, 18 January 2011 (UTC)</div>		<div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">
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	== ] ==		== Elen off the Roads? ==
			Dear Elen,
			Hope you come back, or are still here somewhere under a new name. We miss your generous spirit and willingness to aid those in need. Hope this is just a temporary hiatus, and we all wish you well in whatever endeavors you are pursuing. ] (]) 15:34, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
			*I'd like to sign on to that. ] (]) 18:33, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
			*], too, --] (]) 20:19, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
			*Me as well, he said belatedly. ] (]) 17:57, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
			*And me! Mostly, I hope you are well (selfishly wishing I knew'').&nbsp;'':)''&nbsp;] (]) 18:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
			*Me piling on too. Dropped you an e-mail as well, thinking you maybe might not check this page as often anymore, for whatever reason. ] (]) 18:51, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
			*Me, too. I hope that the reasons for your absence are all good. - ] (]) 18:58, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
			*Your clear thinking and straight forward style are missed. I would wish you back but life is short so hope you are doing what makes you feel the happiest.(] (]) 19:58, 2 September 2013 (UTC))
			*She was one of my favourite arbs. ]&nbsp;<small><sup style="position:relative">]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">]</span></sup></small> 20:03, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
			*More pile-on from me too. I hope all is well with you! --] (]) 22:46, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
			*I miss being able to ask you for advice. I hope you are ok. --<span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#008C3A 0.1em 0.1em 1.5em,#01796F -0.1em -0.1em 1.5em;">]]</span> 06:25, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
			*I wish you were an arbitrator in the Infoboxes case. I compare ] with the so-called "findings" about two editors of whom I speak with high respect there, --] (]) 06:37, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
			*Yup. --] (] · ] · ]) 07:51, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
			== ''The Signpost'': 21 August 2013 ==
	Just a note that I restored this article per a request at ]. --] (]) 01:40, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
	:No problems. Thanks for letting me know. --] (]) 10:58, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
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	== regarding art for all foundation page ==
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			* ''']'''
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			* ] (]) 05:57, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
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			== Best wishes ==
	The information originally posted on wikipedia that you state are a copy right violation are really not.
			<pre>
	I am the author of the foundation's website material and was simply posting my own work and writing on wikipedia. Clearly wikipedia has no mechanism to deal with this situation that is inaccurate.
			May the road rise up to meet you.
			May the wind be always at your back.
			May the sun shine warm upon your face;
			the rains fall soft upon your fields and until we meet again,
			may God hold you in the palm of His hand.</pre>
			<small>]</small> 01:05, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
			== CheckUser and Oversight ==
	Also, I have no idea as to why the criticism section was removed since they are not posted on the foundations website or anywhere else publicly and anyone that has first hand knowledge as an instructor (that were the source for the criticisms) would agree with them.
			Hi Elen,
	Furthermore the addition of the criticism section was made solely to address another wikipedia admin person's complaint that the original post had the tone of self promotion. The criticism section was drafted to balance the presentation.
			We have sent you a number of emails about this, but I wanted to post this on-wiki note as well. The Arbitration Committee has removed your CheckUser and Oversight access for inactivity. If you return one day and wish to regain the tools, well, I'm sure you know the procedure for doing even better than I do. Best, ] ''(])'' 18:16, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
	Clearly your removal of the criticisms are in error under the title of copyright violation and should be re-introduced as they are not published anywhere else and you have no evidence the statements are false. I can give a few email addresses of volunteers and staff that support them.
			== ] ==
	Misplaced Pages can sure be annoying, inefficient, and inaccurate at times. ] (]) 03:06, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
			FYI, as you were the last admin to block him for violating his editing restrictions. ''']''' ('']'') 16:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
	{{collapsetop}}
	***Criticisms of the Art for All program
			==ArbCom==
	The Art for All program dictates that all activities are to be conducted under the "Creative Cooperation of Five" or "5 Makes One Genius" model which is limiting in the following ways:
			Just dropping by to get you to run for ArbCom and I see you've up and gone. It is a pity for all of us... Best wishes to you in Life After The Circus. —Tim //// ] (]) 08:05, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
	1. Staffing or volunteer needs are higher with one needed per group of 4 individuals with unique disabilities when compared to a class of 12-20 hearing impaired students to one instructor. With its staff to participant ratio being so low it would not be viable either privately or commercially without its large volunteer base.
			== Potential sockpuppet of Levineps ==
	2. There can be decreased rapport between members of dissimilar disadvantaged groups that participants may find isolating. There is a greater rapport potential between members of similarly disadvantaged groups. In other words, a visually impaired person is more likely to relate easily with another visually impaired member due to their commonality.
			Recently, ] (]) has been sporadically popping up on my watchlist for category-related changes. A lot of new users do that, so it wasn't a particularly noteworthy thing for me. But then he kept showing up with a higher frequency, oftentimes making (what I thought to be) completely unnecessary over-categorizations to articles. I've been on Misplaced Pages long enough to know that ] (]) is one of the most notorious over-categorizers we've ever seen (and has the community sanctions, block records, and bans to show for it). So, I did about two minutes' worth of research and discovered that Oriole85's account was created / his edits began on November 5, 2013. When was the last edit by Levineps? November 4, 2013. That is not a coincidence IMO. I don't have (a) the time right now, nor (b) the motivation to formally open an SPI, but I'm hoping that one of the many people I'm notifying about this does. If you're wondering why you're being pinged about this, it's because I saw where you were one of the people who has left messages on Levineps' talk page at some point regarding his inappropriate editing. So now, in addition to all of the aforementioned issues with Levineps, it looks like a probably sockpuppet to throw into the mix. ] (]) 05:32, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
	3. The range and quality of artistic activities are more limited when the Art for All program's ideal of a balanced role for each disadvantaged participant is expected. In other words, it is much more difficult to create artistic activities where blind, deaf, physically and mentally challenged members can all participate equally.
			== Precious anniversary ==
	4. The most potentially rewarding, beneficial and best-fit type of activities are either not fully utilized or they tend to marginalizes one or more of the disadvantaged groups. In other words, It is difficult for a blind person to enjoy and benefit from a painting activity or a deaf person from a musical activity. OR a physically challenged person may have difficulty with the dexterity needed for a clay modeling project that would be well suited for both the visual, auditory and mentally challenged. This problem remains even though many creative solutions have been attempted. i.e the painting technique with a stiff glue that has sand immediately applied so that the visually impaired can feel and enjoy the created shape by its raised texture.
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	5. The Art for All concept ignores the functional reality of optimizing ones capabilities. The visually impaired has the strength of tactile and auditory senses whereas the hearing impaired, has dexterity and vision. The mentally and physically challenged have their own combination of strengths and weaknesses. Perhaps the activity time and the returns of creativity would be more rewarding if the focus was on enhancing the participants areas of strength instead of trying to force fit the 4 categories of disability into a single size solution.
			<div>
			<div style="float: right; margin-left: 1em; background-color: #ddd; border: 5px solid #ddd; box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); border-radius: 0.5em;">]</div>
			'''civility'''<br />
			Thank you for your answers to my questions about our ], for your {{diff|Bishonen|525597975|525597435|illustrations of "fishy"}} with "{{diff|User talk:Elen of the Roads|525463913|525460198|grace under fire}}", for a ], - repeating: you are an ] (22 November 2009)!
			--] (]) 08:36, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
	6. The Art for All program could be improved by a combination of activities that are well suited for all; such as the glue-texture painting described above in conjunction with specialized programs optimized for each impairment group. A clay sculpture session for the blind that enabled their unique needs and a dance class for the deaf for a portion of the program's duration would better serve the Art for All's objective of fostering professional artist.
			</div></div>
			<div style="float: right; margin-left: 1em; background-color: #ddd; border: 5px solid #ddd; box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); border-radius: 0.5em;">]<p style="text-align: center; margin-bottom: 0;">Precious and missed</p></div>
			A year ago, you were the 332nd recipient of my ], now we miss you. I entered you in my ], knowing that you would have looked at the facts and told a colleague who didn't, with your flavour of kindness, --] (]) 12:40, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
			]: looking at what some said about a "gender gap", you are missed even more. ] by new candidates who didn't mention gender, but common sense ;) --] (]) 10:21, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
	7. The reliance on volunteer staff means that some well-intentioned instructors may not be aware of the need for or successful in creating artistic activities where all 4 categories of the disabled can participate equally. This results in participants feeling left out or not a creative contributor which is contrary to the main objective of the Art for All program.
			Six years now, and remebered, and much missed, ]? --] (]) 07:10, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
	8. Artwork created by the participants are retained by the organization for group displays etc. which prevents the sharing of individual work with ones parents and caregivers at home after the program ends.
			], and remembered --] (]) 08:04, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
	<small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 03:06, 19 January 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
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			== Merry Christmas! :-) ==
	If you wish to release the content on the website, you have two options
	1. You could put a notice on the website releasing the content under a ] license
	2. You can follow the steps at ] and send a notification through our OTRS system.
			<em style="border:1px solid gold;background-color:#008000"><font face = "Jokewood"><font color = "white"><big>]Happy Yuletides! </big></font></font> <em style="background-color:white">]</em>
	The criticism section was removed because it requires citing to reliable third party sources - see ] for more information on this. ] (]) 17:17, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
			<font face = "Comic Sans MS">Merry Yuletides to you! (And a happy new year!)</font></em>
	== Neptunekh2 ==
			<div style="border-style:solid; border-color:green; background-color:white; font color:red; border-width:2px; text-align:left; padding:8px;" class="plainlinks">]
	Hey there -- I just wanted to leave a comment about Neptunekh2's block. You said when you blocked her that she could get unblocked if she promised never to plagiarise again. She didn't exactly say that, but she did acknowledge she was wrong. I think that maybe if you ask her again to explicitly say she won't plagiarise again as a condition of being unblocked, she would do that. I'm a new user and I was recently blocked myself, so I know it can feel pretty bad. I don't want to ruffle any feathers here, just thought I'd mention it to you in case you didn't see that her block appeal was revoked. I think she probably feels pretty bad about what happened and wouldn't do it again. Thanks! ] (]) 22:11, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
	:Thanks. She has emailed me - I hadn't seen yet that she'd put in a block appeal. I'll take a look. --] (]) 22:36, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
	==]==
	Hi! Thank you for unblocking me! I will not copy and paste anymore. Could you do me a favor? Could you help me write a summary for movie ]? Here's a summary from this site: http://www.movieguide.org/reviews/movie/the-seventh-coin.html but I was wondering how to write in my own words. Can you help me? Thanks! ] (]) 02:07, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
	:I've never seen the film. What I would do if I were you is read three or four plot summaries then go into another room and imagine you are explaining the movie to your mum/partner/cat. Write down that explanation without going back and looking at any of the reviews and it is unlikely to be a copy of anything you have read.--] (]) 02:23, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
			'''''~] ]''''' is wishing you a ] ]! This greeting (and season) promotes ] and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a ], whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Happy New Year! <br />
	== Thanks ==
			Spread the Christmas cheer by adding {{tls|Xmas3}} to their talk page with a friendly message.
	Thanks for reminding OSX, sorry if my warning may have come upon as a little rude, but I get frustrated when people are rude to new editors, especially on the Help Desk. ]''' <sup><small>]</small></sup>''' 02:46, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
			</div>
	:I think he was trying for flippancy, but it obviously failed as both you and Jayron thought he was rude. I don't think your warning was rude, and it certainly didn't warrant defining as vandalism. --] (]) 02:48, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
			Hi Elen, Wishing you a very Happy and Wonderful Merry Christmas! Hope you are having a great time with family and friends :-) I hope you're still out there visiting Misplaced Pages frequently, (though not editing) hopefully you might return some day eventually. Best wishes. '''''~] ]''''' 22:14, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
			== What happened? Where is Elen of the Roads? ==
	== Thanks! ==
			I see Elen has been added to the Missing Wikipedians category. Anyone know what happened? --]2] 01:22, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
	{{you've got mail}}
			:This page speaks for itself, sadly, --] (]) 08:18, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
			:: Is there a Readers Digest version? --]2] 19:04, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
			::: No, it's a puzzle. I know that she offered tea, see a little above, --] (]) 19:09, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
			::: She choose to stop participating in March 2013; I'm not aware of any on-wiki statement as to her reasoning, and if she emailed anyone with explanations it wasn't me. <small>]</small> 19:12, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
	==E-mail==
			::::The lack of explanation is disturbing. --]2] 21:38, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
	Hello, Ellen, I´d like to get in touch with you: my e-mail address: <>. Thanks! <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 09:56, 20 January 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			:::::My hope has been that she has made a clean start and is contributing in areas of the project far, far away from functionary-related areas and all the pressure they entail. She was a fine arb and an effective admin, but I suppose she was simply a good editor before that, and there's no reason she couldn't be one again. Then again, maybe she's happily living RL and avoiding Misplaced Pages entirely. Considering the events that took place (which we ''really'' don't need to rehash here), I wouldn't blame her if it's the latter. ] (]) 22:43, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
	:Googlemail says your email address doesn't exist. --] (]) 21:11, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
			::::::Oh, I have no idea what "the events" are. --]2] 23:07, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
	::Iam sorry: <> (forgot "a")!! Sorry. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 10:06, 21 January 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			::::::: Best to keep it that way. Nobody's going to dig them up for you ... and nobody with an ounce of decency will go digging for them <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 09:44, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
	::Hello Elen, Can I expect a reply? Thanks! ] (]) 11:35, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
			:::::::: Well said. Good panda. ] '']'' 11:21, 14 February 2014 (UTC).
	:::Please don't post to me onwiki again. You are a blocked user and are evading your block. If your hope is to return to editing at some point, further socking will only make matters worse. --] (]) 15:59, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
			:::::::: Not so sure: can you clarify, panda, that the lack of decency was not on Elen's part? --] (]) 13:31, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
			:::::::::? Not needed, Gerda. There is no way to construe the pandaspeak as referring to lack of decency on Elen's part. ] &#124; ] 15:22, 14 February 2014 (UTC).
			:::::::::<small>How are the developers coming on the "Don't thank" feature? ] (]) 13:56, 14 February 2014 (UTC)</small>
			:::::::::: I respectfully disagree with the "ounce of decency" comment. I had almost no interaction with Elen, but she was an ubiquitous part of the community, and I am puzzled and saddened that she no longer participates. If one of those who had much more interaction wanted to know what happened, I would find that entirely reasonable. It may be that she lost interest, in which case we should let it go. But it may also be that she would appreciate knowing that people cared enough about her to want to know what happened.--]] 14:35, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
			::::::::::: I can say only the little I know: she offered tea to the wrong person, and there was a major dramah during the arbcom election of 2012. (I didn't dig into it.) She didn't retire immediately after that. {{diff|User:Gerda Arendt/Vote ACE 2013|585262231|584989573|I still miss her.}} --] (]) 14:44, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
			::::::::::::"Offered tea"? What does that mean? As to the arbcom election of 2012... was she a candidate and lost? Where are those archives? --]2] 18:35, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
			{{outdent}} ], I assume you are just as capable as the rest of us at checking page histories and following links if you want to know what happened with this or any other kerfuffle on Misplaced Pages. It's all there if you care to look, and it's unreasonable to expect anyone to spoon-feed links to you upon request. Having said that, I agree with S Philbrick that it's not unreasonable to want to know (I've certainly <s>wasted</s> spent innumerable hours researching various dramahs—sometimes in an effort to better understand Misplaced Pages's conflicts and see where their participants are coming from, sometimes just out of morbid curiosity, i.e., human nature), and I don't see that "decency" has anything to do with it. And having said ''that'', I'll also say this: my concern, and the reason I jumped into this thread, is that I'd hate to see old wounds reopened to no good purpose. People may legitimately hold different interpretations of what happened with Arbcom in late 2012, but I'd hope we can all agree that it serves no good purpose to restart the dramah again here and now. Since Elen is no longer a functionary, even the people who disagreed with her actions have no legitimate reason to resume their complaints about her now. So please, let's not go over old ground again. ] (]) 23:10, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
			: I'm sure I'm not the first or last that came here wondering why I have not encountered her in a while, and wondered what happened. Yes, I can probably spend hours digging around, and so can everyone else. Or maybe we could save everyone that time and summarize the undisputed facts that are probably related to her apparent choice to leave us without explanation.<p>I'll start a new section accordingly.<p>I still don't get the "offered tea to the wrong person" reference. I see an offer of tea to Elen on this page, but nothing about her offering tea to anyone. --]2] 23:33, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
			::A rather obscure metaphor, I guess. The half-dozen sections of this very page situated immediately above and below the ''coffee'', actually, (and the kitten & the pony) contain the gist of it, at least by implication. A few minutes of reading there, but I don’t know how much more it might take to find satisfactory answers, as I doubt the “undisputed facts” lead very far. All you’ll get from anyone else here are opinions.—]]] 08:11, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
			Elen of the Roads ceased editing in March 2013 without posting any sort of explanatory statement. We should respect her privacy and not post speculation as to the reasons for that -- quite simply, it is not our story to tell. <small>]</small> 11:03, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
	==]==
	Hi! Could you do me a favor? Would you mind cleaning up an article about an English-author? Here's the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/Martyn_Godfrey Also I wonder if the Category:American_Christians should go in the ] article because it says she was Christian.
	Thanks! ] (]) 04:09, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
			== Thank you! A gift from fellow Wikipedians. ==
	:I found all the references for Martyn Godfrey when I reviewed a deletion request, then forgot to finish the article, so thanks for reminding me! As to Ann Dunham, have you read . The article fairly clearly says that she wasn't a Christian, and you will find that adding the category gets you into a lot of trouble, as there is a political aspect to this. Obama says his mum was a Christian, which plainly isn't true - even his sister says this isn't true. This is because to satisfy the demands of the US public, Obama has to at least make a show of being a Christian, because the other side of the family were Muslims. So you tagging her as a Christian will be seen as you making some kind of political statement, so I'd leave it be if I were you! (Oh the joy of politics!!!!) --] (]) 12:16, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
			You have been selected to receive a merchandise giveaway. We last contacted you on 2/19/2014. Please send us a message if you would like to claim your shirt. --] (]) 06:44, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
			==Notification of pending suspension of administrative permissions due to inactivity==
	== Made a fool of myself ==
			]
			Following a ] in June 2011, consensus was reached to ] (i.e. administrators who have not made any edits or logged actions in over one year). As a result of this discussion, your administrative permissions will be removed pending your return&nbsp;if you do not return to activity within the next month. If you wish to have these permissions reinstated&nbsp;should this occur, please post to the ] and the userright will be restored per the ] (i.e. as long as the attending bureaucrats are reasonably satisfied that your account has not been compromised, that your inactivity did not have the effect of evading scrutiny of any actions which might have led to sanctions, and that you have not been inactive for a three year period of time). If you remain inactive for a three year period of time, including the present year you have been inactive, you will need to request reinstatement at ]. This removal of access is procedural only, and not intended to reflect negatively upon you in any way. We wish you the best in future endeavors, and thank you for your past administrative efforts. <!-- Template:Inactive admin -->] (]) 00:15, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
			: *sigh* That's just sad :-( <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 01:35, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
			:Extremely sad about this :( — ]] ] 01:54, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
			::I miss Elen as well; considerably! My remembrance of her precludes sadness however, for I am of the fortunate kind; having many happy recollections – unto laughter at times. If I must wrestle an emotion, perhaps I am jealous of her husband; being blessed unto a wife so dear. Repeating what I said above, I mainly hope that you, and those who cause you to smile, are happy and well – and maybe, that one day you will message someone; allowing them to tell us you've said hello, and that you are well. If you want to shake the foundation a tad; in so doing: grant that privilege to me – I would love such a high honor. Sincerely—] (]) 16:47, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
			==Notification of imminent suspension of administrative permissions due to inactivity==
	I'm sorry for the misunderstanding ; I didn't properly distinguish between what you said and what another editor said below. I think we're completely in agreement. No hard feelings I hope. ] ] 00:51, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
			]
	:No probs. I did something similar to SandyGeorgia a couple of days ago :\ --] (]) 16:00, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
			Following a ] in June 2011, consensus was reached to ] (i.e. administrators who have not made any edits or logged actions in over one year). As a result of this discussion, your administrative permissions will be removed pending your return&nbsp;if you do not return to activity within the next several days. If you wish to have these permissions reinstated&nbsp;should this occur, please post to the ] and the userright will be restored per the ] (i.e. as long as the attending bureaucrats are reasonably satisfied that your account has not been compromised, that your inactivity did not have the effect of evading scrutiny of any actions which might have led to sanctions, and that you have not been inactive for a three year period of time). If you remain inactive for a three year period of time, including the present year you have been inactive, you will need to request reinstatement at ]. This removal of access is procedural only, and not intended to reflect negatively upon you in any way. We wish you the best in future endeavors, and thank you for your past administrative efforts. <!-- Template:Inactive admin -->] (]) 00:50, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
	== ''The Signpost'': 24 January 2011 ==
			==Suspension of administrative permissions due to inactivity==
	<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
			]
	{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2011-01-24}}
			Following a ] in June 2011, consensus was reached to ] (i.e. administrators who have not made any edits or logged actions in over one year). As a result of this discussion, your administrative permissions have been removed pending your return. If you wish to have these permissions reinstated, please post to the ] and the userright will be restored per the ] (i.e. as long as the attending bureaucrats are reasonably satisfied that your account has not been compromised, that your inactivity did not have the effect of evading scrutiny of any actions which might have led to sanctions, and that you have not been inactive for a three year period of time). If you remain inactive for a three year period of time, including the present year you have been inactive, you will need to request reinstatement at ]. This removal of access is procedural only, and not intended to reflect negatively upon you in any way. We wish you the best in future endeavors, and thank you for your past administrative efforts. <!-- Template:Inactive admin -->–]] 17:30, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
	</div><!--Volume 7, Issue 4-->
	<div style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">''']''' &middot; ] &middot; ] &middot; ] (]) 00:46, 25 January 2011 (UTC)</div>
	<!-- EdwardsBot 0102 -->
	== Dispute requiring admin help ==		== Missing your contributions ==
			Elen, I don't know whether you will read here again, nor whether you will ever choose to return to Misplaced Pages, but I miss your editing and your administrating, and do hope you will choose to be back again someday. ] (]) 00:10, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
	Hi Elen of the Roads,
			: {{like}} <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 00:16, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
			: Can't be ] enough, --] (]) 06:29, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
			*I came here to say the same exact thing. Here's hoping you return someday &mdash; you're one of the good ones. ] ] 11:49, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
			== Request for comment ==
	I am an editor who frequents the heavily disputed pages ] and ]. At the moment, I feel there are some compelling reasons for the two pages to be locked. Since our local friendly administrator ] is too busy to deal with a matter of this complexity (i.e. this will be a moderately long read), I would like to know if you are willing to assist on the issue.
			Hello there, a proposal regarding pre-adminship review has been raised at Village pump by {{noping|Anna Frodesiak}}. Your comments ] is very much appreciated. Many thanks. ] through ] (]) 06:46, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
	Here's a short summary of the matter in my point of view:
			<!-- Message sent by User:Jim Cartar@enwiki using the list at //en.wikipedia.org/Category:Wikipedia_administrators -->
			== In regards to your six month block ==
	'''Background''': Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands are hotly disputed territories between China and Japan. Both Chinese and Japanese nationals are convinced of their respective sovereignty claims to it. Conflicts over this issue spoiled over to the Misplaced Pages page.
			Hi Elen. May I ask of you why you blocked me back in the end of 2011? Did I do something awfully destructive? If I did do something, then what did I do? Here are some things.
	'''Editors''': The current compositions of regular editors are:
			*You closed the discussion in less than 24 hours, when there was '''only 10 supports'''. Only ] discussions can be closed that soon. And only 10 supports is not snow in any way.
	* 5 editors from Japan: ], ], ], ], ]
			*I did not do anything disruptive. I was doing my best to listen to others and take all their points.
	* 2 editors who are Chinese diaspora: ], ] (myself)
			*They had all formed a witch-hunt. They had accused me of ], and being ]. But I hadn't made any problems, considering my deletion requests got accepted, and 90% of my edits weren't reverted.
			*I ''do'' make mistakes, we all do. It is impossible not to make mistakes. But those mistakes could be easily fixed.
			*I was doing my best to be a constructive contributor. Even my mentor said so.
			*I was acting in 100% good faith. Doing my best to avoid making mistakes, and listen to other contributors.
			If there is any dissent, please say it. I would be very appreciated if you could tell me what I did that was so harmful to the project. Thank you for your everything you do and have done.
			(Oh, and by the way, I go to college/tertiary education now.)
	'''Problem''': Opinions between editors are basically divided along the cultural lines. All Japanese editors except for ] have a history of skewing facts, adding false information, and preventing inaccurate details from being removed. Since they vastly outnumbered us and are very good at using Misplaced Pages policies to obstruct editorial processes they don't like, neither ] nor myself had much luck to push any changes. And to be fair to ourselves, neither of us were fanatic Chinese nationals. All we really wanted was to keep the pages neutral and accurate.
			Regards, -'']'' 10:16, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
	'''Proposed Action''': Lock the pages for a period of 6 months and permit changes to come through only with the approval of an admin.
			:], as you can see from the top of this page Elen of the Roads has not edited on Misplaced Pages in well over a year. As regards the reason for the '''community consensus''' that you be blocked for six months, please read ] of the ANI archives and ] where there was an overwhelming consensus to uphold the block. The fact that almost two years after it expired, you are still totally oblivious as to why your behaviour resulted in the block and are still attempting to argue with the administrator who enacted it does not bode very well for your future editing here. ] (]) 10:53, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
	'''Justification''': Dispute resolutions have been attempted over the ages. We already know anything dealing with consensus will not work due to strong partisanships. Even after 6 months of participation, some of the most basic changes/corrections I requested are still not committed due to relentless filibustering by ], ], and ]. An example (in the summary linked below, search for Remin Ribao) would be some fraudulent claims based on mis-translations of a Chinese article where the errors were explicitly verified. Even now, two of the aforementioned editors still persisted in preserving the associated misinformation and inaccurate references and one of them even slapped me with a ]!
			::Voceditnore, first of all, I do not like arguing. Arguing is not my type of thing, and I don't like arguing. I am ''not'' "''arguing''" with Elen that she blocked me, I am <nowiki>'</nowiki>''questioning''<nowiki>'</nowiki> her why she blocked me. Second of all, I know she is inactive, but I did not come here to ask why she is inactive. And if it ''really'' is community consensus, then I am curious what I did that was disruptive. But do you think I am immature? I go to college now. And in everything else, thank you. -'']'' 11:22, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
			* On top of that, asking someone why they did something 2.5 years ago is a fruitless, ridiculous endeavour. I barely remember what I did last night. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 11:11, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
	Among other things, some of the aforementioned editors also sporadically re-write sentences or paragraphs to remove information that contradict Japanese claims, delete references to Chinese names, and add misleading impressions that appear to strengthen a Japanese sovereignty.
			:*For someone who says they don't like arguing, I wonder how you can so easily make clearly judgmental, unsupported comments, which tend to be the basis of "arguing," like "I did not do anything disruptive" (in which you clearly make numerous judgments without having apparently defined the term "disruptive"), "They had all formed a witch-hunt" (a rather wild jump to conclusions regarding both motivation and actions), and other obviously inflammatory statements. And, although as you said "you did not come here to ask why she is inactive" (as if it would be likely Elen would come back to editing for that specific purpose alone), you have apparently chosen to make a total quixotic effort similar to, basically, asking a dead person about their last phone call. "Irrational" doesn't begin to describe such activity. Do others think you are immature? Possibly, and, unfortunately, at least from my own experience with some college students here, they tend to be among the most dogmatic and inflexible editors I've seen, because they tend to edit in areas in which they have almost "evangelical" interest. If you '''really''' want to know how you were being disruptive, asking someone who has a reasonable chance of responding, like any other party involved in the discussion, would probably be less disruptive in at least one sense of the word than asking questions at a page where the person nominally being asked is almost certainly not going to directly respond. ] (]) 15:14, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
			::*P.S. Elen, if you ever do see this, I can understand your leaving this combative mess of POV pushers, self-absorbed egomaniacs, and tunnel vision illiterates. You know, people like me. Some of the other foundation sites, like wikisource, feel like being in heaven in comparison, and I think everybody would be quite happy and more than willing to offer any assistance requested if you wanted to maybe put some time in there. And the dramah is only a small fraction of that here in comparison. ] (]) 15:19, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
			== A kitten for you! ==
	Personally, I am getting very tired having to police these two pages. My contributions are definitely not getting through and I don't see any degree of constructive editing going on. Once even my interests fade, this page is basically left to the fantasies of these POV-pushers.
			]
	I know it is my word against their words and they can basically come in and claim the reverse. What'd help you decide is the '''more detailed''' summary I left in ]'s talk page or ] - and even that is a very concise summary of all the things happened. Since others tend to stalk my contributions, I am sure one or more of them will come and present their own versions of ''facts''. This will also help you get a sense of what type of people I am dealing with in those pages.
			This one says "meow", surprisingly. All the best,
			] (]) 01:46, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
	Note: At this point in time, I don't feel obliged to notify others of this conversation, since I am not sure if you'd agree to help.
			<br style="clear: both;"/>
	Thanks.
	] (]) 03:17, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
	:Sorry, been a bit busy over the weekend. I'm looking - I'll let you know if there's an approach I think might work. Qwyrxian I've got on OK with before, Tenmei I find terribly difficult to converse with in English (he seems to me to have learned his English from someone who used it only for logical or philosophical constructs) but we have communicated successfully. The others I don't know. ] (]) 12:18, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
	::Qwyrxian is fine - He's possibly the only reason I could do any quality control on that page. ] (]) 00:00, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
			{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 4px solid #FFD700;"
	==A few things I need to discuss==
			|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 2px;" | ]
	1. Should ] go under the category ]?
			|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 2px 2px 0 2px; height: 1.5em;" | '''Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2015!!!'''
	2. Should ] go under the category Category American people of Jewish descent since she is ] on her Mother's side?
			|-
	3. Is it OK if I an article for the book called More Than Weird by English author ]?
			|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" |
	4. Could you help help write a plot summary for the movie ]? I find a summary from this website:http://www.movieguide.org/reviews/movie/the-seventh-coin.html But I need help putting the summary into my own words. Thanks! ] (]) 04:09, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
			----
	# If it is in Stikine Country yes. If not, no. I don't know if it is or it isn't
			'''Hello Elen of the Roads, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this ]. Spread the ] by wishing another user a ] and a ], whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you a heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2015. <br>
	# If you can find a reliable source in which Alyson Hannigan says that she is Jewish then yes. If not, no. This rule applies for all nationalities and religions, and all biographies of living people
			Happy editing,<br>
	# If it meets the requirements of ] yes. If not, no. If it is his most famous book but there is very little material, add it instead to the article (which I still haven't updated, sorry - been busy) and create a redirect for the name pointing to his article.
			--] (]) 12:05, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
	# I've answered this above, and the people at the helpdesk have answered you as well. We can't write a plot summary for a movie we've never seen. --] (]) 12:14, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
			''{{resize|96%|Spread the love by adding {{tls|Seasonal Greetings}} to other user talk pages.}}''
	== Email ==
			|}
			== Unblock of supersockpuppet Ratel you have blocked ==
	You got email ] (]) 20:09, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
	== ''The Signpost'': 31 January 2011 ==
	<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
	{{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2011-01-31}}
	</div><!--Volume 7, Issue 5-->
	<div style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">''']''' &middot; ] &middot; ] &middot; ] (]) 01:38, 1 February 2011 (UTC)</div>
	<!-- EdwardsBot 0106 -->
	It’s hard for me to figure out how to use the WP Reference Desk website. If it’s not okay for me to ask you questions about an incident in a film, then why? (] (]) 22:52, 1 February 2011 (UTC)).
			Surely you are interested in this:
	==Message==
	It’s hard for me to figure out how to use the WP Reference Desk website. If it’s not okay for me to ask you questions about an incident in a film, then why? (] (]) 22:51, 1 February 2011 (UTC)).
	:There's no point asking me personally, because I've never even heard of this film, let alone seen it. That's the first thing. The second thing is that the helpme template is for users who need help in editing Misplaced Pages, not for asking questions about the articles. The place to ask this kind of question is here ] Just click the 'ask a question' button, and remember to keep checking back to see if someone has answered. It is no more difficult than editing an talkpage, and you have successfully managed to do that. --] (]) 12:41, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
			And let me copy here my last comment there to introduce the situation:
	== IMEKO ==
			" '''Let me summarize here what the last admin discovered and stated on 2012''¡: Ratel but using the sockpuppet Jabbsworth plead to ARBCOM to be unblocked promising he will never use sockpuppets and openly mentioned to ARBCOM three sockpuppets (RxWatch, OzOke, and Hill-Mitchelson) he was using. On 2012 admin ] noticed that Jabssworth never mentioned but hid to ARBCOM that he was also Ratel, and he never mentioned but also hid that he was Ticklemeister. ] also discovered and noticed that he was also using another sockpuppet (Medic58), that he also kept hid during his last and all the previous SPI and also hid it to ARBCOM. So he was clearly breaching his promises to ARBCOM, deceiving them and the users, plus dishonoring his own words. That was the kind of disruptive behaviour that was sanctioned by ] by re-establishing the block that ARBCOM had forgiven to Jabssworth. Now since 2013 up to now, Ratel using JabbaTheHot evaded that last block, breaks his promises, he is caught and blocked again some days ago and you say that is a clean start, that he is not being distruptive and therefore he deserves to be unblocked again? "
	Hello, sorry but could you take another look at ] (I have removed the blah blah and the copyvios) and see if it is minimally decent enough to move to ]. I found few independent sources of information on this organization but it is quite clearly real and notable. ] ] 13:16, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
			--<font face="Berlin Sans FB" size="2" style="text-shadow:orange 0em 0em 0.7em,orange -0.4em -0.4em 0.5em,red 0.2em 0.4em 0.5em">]]</font> 19:02, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
			== This is a award ==
			{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
	==]==
			|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ]
	Hi! I was wondering if you could edit the Alexandra Powers page. I found this article online that talk about her personal life: http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,308844,00.html Would it be ok to use this article as a reference? Thanks!
			|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''for having a awesome userpage'''
	] (]) 06:58, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
			|-
	:The only thing I'd say is that it's from 1993 - 17 years ago - so you could only use it to source a statement like "at one time, Powers was a devotee of .....(whatever the book was)". The chances are that since then she's been through half a dozen changes of philosophy and is now a macrobiotic existentialist or something. --] (]) 12:15, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
			|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | this is a awesome userpage ] (]) 20:17, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
			|}
	== Girls ==		== Hi - long time ==
			Thought of you today - and just noting that you are missed. Hope all is well in your world Elen. — <small><span class="nowrap" style="border:1px solid #000000;padding:1px;"><b>]</b> : ]</span></small> 18:39, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
	Elen, have you been following the ''New York Times'' on WP gender imbalance? There was the story the other day, and now there's a Does it make you feel like some kind of anomaly in nature? It's starting to make me feel that way. I've never felt unwelcome in the WP community, or certainly not because of my gender. I'm finding this all rather perplexing. I mean, it isn't that I don't see biases arising from gender-determined interests. But I'm not getting why women feel they can't contribute. I mean, either you can support your contributions with good-quality, verifiable sources, or you can't. To me, the problems of interactions on talk pages and so on aren't about gender, but about different personality types. Not asking you for some kind of statement. I guess I'm just exclaiming out loud. There, I feel better now. ] (]) 20:07, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
			{{User QAIbox
	:Incidentally, there's currently a lot of discussion of this over on ], although some of it got a bit silly, some of it got a bit bad-tempered, and it may not cover the particular angle you're asking about. --] (]) 20:41, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
			| image = ]
			}}
			Your day of ] remembered, with another kitten, --] (]) 12:01, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
			... remembered again, five years, and missed. Your talk is still a source of inspiration, DYK? --] (]) 08:42, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
			== Contests ==
	==]==
			] has created ]. The idea is to run a series of contests/editathons focusing on each region of Africa. He has spoken to Wikimedia about it and $1000-1500 is possible for prize money. As someone who has previously expressed interest in African topics, would you be interested in contributing to one or assisting draw up core article/missing article lists? He says he's thinking of North Africa for an inaugural one in October. If interested please sign up in the participants section of the Contest page, thanks.♦ --]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 01:19, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
	Hi! Would it ok to upload a photo of Alexandra Powers from this link: http://www.fandango.com/celebrityphotos/alexandrapowers_p57553 or this link: http://www.whosdatedwho.com/tpx_47108/alexandra-powers/photo
	I think her page needs a photo. But that's just my opinion. Thanks! ] (]) 00:22, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
	:No, it would not be OK at all. If you look at the credit for the first image, it says "Getty images". This means it is a commercial photo, and those must never be used (look out also for "Associated Press", and "Press Association". You can't use those either). With the second image, the problem is that you don't know who took it. To upload something to Misplaced Pages, you need to be able to say "this is in the public domain" or "I took this picture and you are free to use it". You can't say either of those with that photo, because you don't know who took it.--] (]) 01:41, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
			== indefinite blocking of SNIyer12 ==
			Hi,
			On 20 October 2012 you indefinitely blocked {{user2|SNIyer12}} an editor who contributed 61,233 edits to wikipedia and had been active since 3 April 2005. Where can I find the background of the blocking of this editor. Thanks in advance, ] (]) 15:23, 7 October 2016 (UTC){{small|please ] me}}
	==Question re:ArbCom on SAQ==
	Hi. I have some info for the arbitrators, but have no idea which section to put it in. The threads have become so long and convoluted that I just don't know the right place for this statement. It has do with the insertion of the "Standards of Evidence" section in the SAQ article, which I believe, from a behavior point of view, was a deliberate act to prejudice the entire article and violate npov. The section states that only mainstream researchers use " title page attributions, government records such as the Stationers' Register and the Accounts of the Revels Office, and contemporary testimony from poets, historians, and those players and playwrights who worked with him, as well as modern stylometric studies." This is simply not the case. Anti-strats use each and every one of these in building their various cases. I can easily provide refs, but antiStrat researchers such as Diana Price, Ogburn, Anderson have all used title pages, gov't records and contemporary testimony. And I know of several stylometric studies that anti-strats have used to bolster their cases. How do I raise this issue at ArbCom and where? Thanks. I will probably copy this question to another arbitrator or two in hopes of finding some clarity. ] (]) 17:52, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
	: It's difficult isn't it. The evidence page has turned into a mess, the workshop page has turned into a mess, half the content wants pulling out into the talkpages so its possible to see what's going on. Let me ask the question, as I do think you are raising an evidentiary point. --] (]) 18:42, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
	::Thank you. ] (]) 19:31, 6 February 2011 (UTC)		: We miss Elen for years. Are you looking for watchers who know background? --] (]) 15:28, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
			::Or, you could read the block log which .&nbsp;&#8209;&nbsp;] 17:23, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
	:::From my perspective, the link you are referring to is a classic example of a CONTENT dispute that we will not be ruling on. I strongly urge you to get your evidence into your own section on the evidence page as soon as possible. The case has been open for several weeks now and we do not anticipate delays. Under no circumstances should you submit this as "private" evidence via email; it must be visible to other participants, both parties and other interested observers. Hope this is helpful. ] (]) 20:55, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
			:::What ] said, ]. In addition, see the editor's talk page where Elen explained the conditions for the unblock, the editor failed to respond to her, then submitted an unblock request three years later and was refused by another administrator who explained why. And of course see ]. SNIyer12 has continued socking ever since he/she was blocked. You could have easily found out all of this within a few minutes. Plus there is a clear notice on the top of this page that Elen hasn't edited Misplaced Pages for over three years. So what exactly is your point in posting here? ] (]) 17:39, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
	::::Elen has stated that she will ask the question so I am content to let her do that. Actually, my question had to with ''where'' to respond on the workshop page, as related to aspects of NPOV and behavioral issues which have already been raised there. I suppose these would be related to ownership and RS issues, but the workshop page has become incredibly difficult to follow, thus my question in the first place. In any case, rest assured I would never make this, or any other statements, via email in an attempt to keep these things "private". I believe that a fair an open hearing before the entire community is crucial at this point. Thanks for the response and the advice. I do appreciate all comments and offers of help. ] (]) 21:11, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
			{{Anchor|somewhat creepy page}}
	:::::I have asked the question. it needs to go on the evidence page, not in the workshop - although if you feel it warrants a proposal in the workshop you could do that as well. Newyorkbrad says if you could do that before Wednesday and also include any evidence to do with your topic ban appeal, that would be great, as drafting will begin after that.] (]) 21:21, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
			::::@], I'd imagine it's related to ] OHT maintains which names-and-shames every former Misplaced Pages editor and the reason they're no longer active.&nbsp;&#8209;&nbsp;] 16:14, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
			:::::{{YO|Iridescent}} Please see ]. I hope you don't mind. ] (]) 15:38, 10 October 2016 (UTC){{small|please ] me}}
			::{{Yo|Gerda Arendt}} Long time no <s>see</s> talk, nice to see a friendly face here. Anyway, I am just trying to figure out a better way of communicating information in regards to blocked users, since as you probably know, I was once myself indefinitely blocked. ] (]) 14:45, 9 October 2016 (UTC){{small|please ] me}}
	::::::Thanks, I will do that. ] (]) 22:02, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
			== ] of ] ==
			]
			The file ] has been ]&#32;because of the following concern:
	== ''The Signpost'': 7 February 2011 ==
			<blockquote>Old orphaned esoteric file.</blockquote>
			While all constructive contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, pages may be ].
	<div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
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	<div style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">''']''' &middot; ] &middot; ] &middot; ] (]) 01:13, 8 February 2011 (UTC)</div>
			Please consider addressing the issues raised. Removing {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated files}} will stop the ], but other ]es exist. In particular, the ] process can result in deletion without discussion, and ] allows discussion to reach ] for deletion.<!-- Template:Proposed deletion notify --> ~ ]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">]</sup> 17:48, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
	<!-- EdwardsBot 0107 -->
			== ] of ] ==
			]
			The file ] has been ]&#32;because of the following concern:
			<blockquote>Old orphaned esoteric file.</blockquote>
			While all constructive contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, pages may be ].
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			Please consider addressing the issues raised. Removing {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated files}} will stop the ], but other ]es exist. In particular, the ] process can result in deletion without discussion, and ] allows discussion to reach ] for deletion.<!-- Template:Proposed deletion notify --> ~ ]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">]</sup> 17:48, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
			== ] of ] ==
			]
			The file ] has been ]&#32;because of the following concern:
	==Heavily mettled pards==
			<blockquote>Old orphaned esoteric file.</blockquote>
	What a magnificent split that would have been. Revel in error! It would almost have made up for Spaeth's delightful translation of Imporcitor as "Maker of pigs" being, um... probably very, very wrong. Sometimes the truth is just a little bit ''dull''. ] (]) 01:19, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
			While all constructive contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, pages may be ].
	== infobox alignment ==
			You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated files}} notice, but please explain why in your ] or on ].
	Hey, Elen, do you know what's wrong with the infobox at ]? It's flush ''left'' with no runaround, and I'm not seeing why. ] 14:22, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
			Please consider addressing the issues raised. Removing {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated files}} will stop the ], but other ]es exist. In particular, the ] process can result in deletion without discussion, and ] allows discussion to reach ] for deletion.<!-- Template:Proposed deletion notify --> ~ ]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">]</sup> 17:48, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
	:Ditto ]. ] 14:23, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
			== Today's Wikipedian 10 years ago ==
	::Oh wait. Just looked at ]. This seems to be occurring massively. Something wicked this way comes? ] (]) 14:31, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
			{{User QAIbox
			| title = Awesome
			| image = Cscr-featured.svg
			| image_upright = 0.35
			| bold = ]
			}}
			We miss you. --] (]) 09:00, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
			== "Untitled Star Trek sequel" listed at ] ==
			]
			An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect ]. Since you had some involvement with the ''Untitled Star Trek sequel'' redirect, you might want to participate in ] if you wish to do so. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> ]] 17:27, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
			== Always precious ==
	:::OK, nevermind, I see it's scheduled maintenance. A temporary apocalypse. I wish they'd post a notice at the top of one's watchlist, just so we knew. ] (]) 14:39, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
			]
			Ten years ago, ] were found precious. You are remembered and missed. --] (]) 08:11, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
			Yup. Miss you, hope you're OK.--] (]) 04:15, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
	==Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Timneu22==
	Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Timneu22 has been moved to a new page, apparently it should not have been on the user's talk page, and the comments you made there removed to the talk page of the RFC. Please add any comments you with to make in appropriate form at ]. ] ] 03:38, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
	*Please also note ] --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 06:28, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

---

Latest revision as of 07:37, 26 October 2024

This user may have left Misplaced Pages. Elen of the Roads has not edited Misplaced Pages since 20 March 2013. As a result, any requests made here may not receive a response. If you are seeking assistance, you may need to approach someone else.

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Archives

Misspelled music festivals * 2009 * 2010(1) * 2010(2) * 2011(1) * 2011(2) * 2012(1) * 2012(2) * 2012(3)

Just found what impressed us

Hi, This is an old talk, I know :http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Turkish_Van however your logic about the Van and the Angora cats (in Turkey) being the same breed is unusual to see, however you are right! Warm regards from Turkey, from a member of The Angora Cat Association.--Ankara Kedisi 07:12, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I wonder if anyone got your reference....

You're the second person I know of who's read the Lensman series. MSJapan (talk) 22:30, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

User:Orangemike is another. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:05, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

And I of course am a third. They were pretty dire. Rich Farmbrough, 20:10, 11 December 2012 (UTC).

And the answer is

907 mainspace edits. Nobody Ent 22:51, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Your post made me curious, so I went and looked myself up. I seem to have 7954 mainspace edits. I had no idea I had made that many. KillerChihuahua 22:58, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Just a quick thanks for quick Oversighting. --Anonymous209.6 (talk) 03:59, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Infobox dispute

You once mediated a similar infobox dispute. Can you be objective at Stephen H. Wendover as to whether the infobox is a distraction to the reader, or is helpful to the reader? Both arguments are valid and really more an issue of aesthetics, so a third opinion ... well, a fourth in this case, would be helpful. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:00, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

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Mail call

I've dropped you a line. Worm(talk) 16:07, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

More MMA Socks

Just to let you know some more MMA SPA's have shown up, for example Nurple is the New Purple (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Noahco (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) along with Jfgsloeditor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for which there is an open WP:ANI here. Mtking 17:18, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Got 'em all three, and Noahco's kid brother User:Blio sucks. Nurple and Jfgsloeditor are BStudent0 socks, Noahco is editing on proxies now blocked. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:32, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Nest of 'em?? Us socks come in drawers, not "nests"! Jester of the court (NE sock) 22:37, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I will suggest at the ANI that the 3 pages he created should be WP:G5'ed in line with WP:DENY, I can't believe any of the other !voters will object. Mtking 23:01, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Male call

Hello, Elen of the Roads. Please check your email; you've got mail!
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Nobody Ent 02:46, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Edit war

You showed interest in the discussion at Talk:Stephen H. Wendover the other day. As an admin, could you look at this again? Mr. Norton is currently starting an edit war over the infobox, claiming consensus, although the discussion on the talk page IMO shows that there is none. Kraxler (talk) 01:07, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

First track off The Poison

Hello! I've noticed that the name of the first song off the album The Poison is wrong. The real name is "Intro", not "Intro ... My Lifestyle". I tried to change it, but there are two users who do not stop reverting my edits without consulting. So I've been involved in an edit war. An unregistered user changed back the name several times and he added a reference from Last.fm, but I think that is not a reliable source. Moreover, I have added some references to the talk page such as the official BFMV website, itunes, BBC and even a picture of the album.

This is so frustrating! I have that CD in my house (I bought it a few years ago because I was a big fan of Bullet For My Valentine) and I can read clearly that the name of the song is just "Intro". So I want to ask you to end this discussion. Thank you. Cristian MH (talk) 13:49, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

No point telling me - I'm not going to edit the article. I'm just trying to stop you getting blocked for edit warring, because no-one seems to agree with you at the moment, which puts you in the wrong Wikipolicy-wise. If you can't get them to communicate on the talkpage, try going to WP:DRN for more eyes on the question. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:53, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Blocked from editing The Poison?

I already agreed to stop editing the track names, and even added more reviews to the reception section since the disbute ended. I have talked with the user on his and my talk page, and I haven't edited anything regarding the tracks since I told them I would stop. I wasn't even warned about an edit war, and I only reverted twice meaning I in no way violated the 3RR. I am requesting that you unblock me from editing The Poison as I did not violate any rules. TJD2 (talk) 14:04, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I haven't blocked you. I have locked the article so no-one can edit it (see WP:PROTECT), because it kept changing every few hours, and that's no good for our readers. Decide amongst yourselves what is going to go in the article - if necessary go to WP:DRN to get some of the dispute resolution people to help you work it out. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:05, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm fine with that; I figured after I posted this that it might be just locked, but wasn't sure as I don't ever log off Misplaced Pages. As I said, I'm done with the track name argument, and have been for a while. I agree with you about the constant updates. Thank you for addressing my concern.TJD2 (talk) 16:02, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

That's cool. You should have no difficulties editing anywhere else, my locking the article does not reflect upon yourself. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:17, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Urgent intervention on WP:ANI

Dear "Elen of the Roads"

I can't take this user's abuse anymore. If well intentioned editors can get harassed like this, I don't want to continue at Misplaced Pages. RobertRosen (talk) 13:57, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

There have been some further developments. Which are on WP:ANI. I'm seeing if the user and I can call a truce and ignore/avoid each other in future. RobertRosen (talk) 21:48, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

He's a "reformed" socker who continued to indulge in uncivil disruptive editing with other editors (including an admin) even after being unblocked. In the past 5 months the only 2 articles he has worked on are those in which I reverted controversial BLP or poorly sourced/copyrighted material. Can you advise me on how to proceed because I want all this to stop. RobertRosen (talk) 05:57, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

RFAR

Could you explain more specifically why you struck out your vote?--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 15:42, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, no problem. I went back to the basic principles, and came up with a line of reasoning that looks like this:-

The following policies/customs/practice apply here

• If two or more editors are going at it hammer and tongs in a legit content dispute and will not stop, they can all be ibanned or tbanned to damp it down
• If two or more editors spend their time following each other around the project sniping, they can be ibanned
• If one editor follows another editor around persistently, for a long time, sniping, that is disruptive
• If editors are editing in a disruptive manner in an area, they can be sanctioned with tbans, blocks and bans
• If editors are trolling, they shoud be blocked
• If someone is being trolled by socks, the socks should be blocked
• If someone supports the trolling from the sock, they should be blocked

Let's leave out the two sockmasters for the moment. Focus on the editors who have legitimate accounts.

IIf the users with legitimate accounts were doing nothing wrong, they shouldn't have been ibanned.

If Mathsci is equally bad in how he interacts with the legitimate accounts, a normal (two way) iban would have been the right remedy

If Mathsci was behaving well but the other editors included in the iban were engaged in following Mathsci around sniping, the other editors should have been blocked or tbanned for being disruptive.

If the other editors were trolling, they should have been blocked for trolling.

If they were supporting the trolling socks, they should have been blocked for that.

At the end of the day, a one way interaction ban would appear to be the wrong remedy, but I don't have enough processed data to decide what the right remedy is, so I struck my vote. It seems to me that the issue of trolling socks, and the issue of the behaviour of the legitimate editors, is getting conflated, but the remedies proposed are not dealing with that. What should have happened if Arbcom was not going to support the original AE sanction was an examination of the behaviour of all parties against the checklist above, to determine where all the behaviours fall. Since everything on Misplaced Pages becomes stale so quickly, I don't know if there is still the opportunity to do this. Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:41, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

My initial statement included evidence of the inciting incident for the AE case that led to this sanction. I had not interacted with Mathsci for weeks when he suddenly accused me of tag-teaming and meatpuppetry without any evidence on an unrelated AE case. There is nothing in my reaction that I think was inappropriate. All I can really say is that I probably should have just ignored the comment about me so as to not allow any room for hostility, one-sided though it may have been, but I can't say for certain that it would have changed anything.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 18:37, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Things on Misplaced Pages become stale quickly, but is there any reason to assume that has happened here? In his comments in his user talk and on the request page, SilkTork mentions that if Arbcomm were to examine the questions you asked, what it needs to examine would date back at least to 2009. Having waited a few weeks shouldn't matter when examining an issue spanning three years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.108.63.44 (talk) 21:18, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

78.108.63.44 is a tor node. Mathsci (talk) 21:44, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

While we are on these historical matters, perhaps you could clear up something that has been puzzling us for some time. Mathsci is insistant that banned User:Echigo mole is identical with User:A.K.Nole, the link being a group of Vodafone addresses. He cites you as the source of this information. I believe he is referring to the incident in December 2010 when Mathsci got User:Mikemikev coomunity banned for disruption at AN/I and then decided later that he was wrong? Anyway, perhaps you could comment on some related issues. (1) Should Mathsci be disclosing this sort of information at all? (2) Are you satisfied that you are being correctly quoted? (3) Has ArcComm indeed determined that A.K.Nole is indeed Echigo Mole? (4) Are you and ArbComm satisfied that the other users accused by Mathsci, such as User:Quotient group, User:Junior Wrangler and User:Penny Birch are equally guilty? If so, why has none of them also been banned? If not, then why is Mathsci permitted to make these frequently repeated allegations? I do hope you can clarify matters. Koi No Yokan (talk) 22:40, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Hello Mr Nole (I presume it is you, and not just one of your party). I'm afraid I was just the messenger back then - it was User:Shell Kinney who as I recall actually handled the Checkuser stuff when I joined. However, I am interested in your side of the story. Do you feel you were hard done by, and why did you decide to respond by starting this sock party, which is surely a drain on your time and energy? What do you hope to achieve by it? Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:35, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Elen, since you state that you didn't have enough data, why didn't you guys advocate opening a full case after striking your vote? In fact, after Silk Tork did some investigating on his own, you had more data than you had when you first voted. If you needed more, then wouldn't further investigation have been appropriate? Cla68 (talk) 23:50, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Largely because there was a bit of a convo going on between a couple of us over what was the best thing to do, and various other folks were hopping up and down like this, and on Misplaced Pages anything over 24 hours old is stale in some people's eyes (they should try working for the Revenue - six years isn't long enough to write off a debt). In the end, it's all been archived...until the next time, which I'm sure won't be long in coming. Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:00, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, since I don't feel that being one-way interaction banned just for having an argument in an AE thread is very justified, I guess you can expect an amendment motion soon. And, as obsessive as the editor at the center of all this is, I think you can expect more from that quarter, without my involvement. You guys really should have ended it now, instead of tabling it for later. Cla68 (talk) 05:03, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

If you wish to appeal your ban, then arbitrators have already indicated that WP:AE is the place to do that. Here's the template: Template:Arbitration enforcement appeal. The remarks you are making about the "other editor at the center of all this" are not permissible until you make that appeal and your sanctions are lifted. The editor that started off the whole chain of problems was Zeromus1. I alerted Amalthea as checkuser in private on 9 September. Only in November did it become evident who was operating the account. Mathsci (talk) 05:26, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

sigh * sips whiskey * — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cla68 (talk • contribs)

Ah yes the next time ... Mathsci (talk) 04:50, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Call of Duty template

One more thing; users at the Call of Duty article keep reverting my work claiming they "don't need sources". They state the game Call of Duty: World at War is a part of the Call of Duty: Black Ops series, when in actuality although it is in the same universe, it is not in the same series. I've looked into this as well, and no sources support this claim. Nor have I ever heard COD1,2 and 3 reffered to as the "Original Trilogy". The way I see it without a source, these claims of WaW being in the Black Ops series are inaccurate. TJD2 (talk) 22:23, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Replied

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Nobody Ent 23:06, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Another one

Think there is a new one ..... 65 Edits Per Hour (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Mtking 18:47, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

You got it...:) This guy is getting to be a pain in the posterior. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:53, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Mtking 19:12, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Block expungement policy

I don't yet know when or if I will get to it, but I wanted you to know I added a comment of yours to my To-do list. In short, I'd like to see a procedure enabled to expunge a block from a block list, where the parties agree that the original block was in error. While some cases, such as your example, are clear-cut, the boundaries are tricky, so I'm not ready to propose until I'm ready to spend some time on it.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 21:22, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

That's the tricky thing. Where do you draw the line beyond the situation where the admin immediately says 'oh dear, wrong dude' or equivalent. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:30, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Would this review any blocks made back in the "old days" (say, 2006) that were questionable? I have one of those, a "I blocked myself" block, and a "Oops, my bad" block, plus associated annotation. --Rschen7754 22:32, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

That would be for the community to decide. My alternate account User:Elen on the Roads was blocked because someone thought it was an impersonator, which amuses me no end, but it does seem unfair generally that a block that all sides agree was totally based on some mistake, cannot be properly deleted. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:03, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

It's technically enabled - I tried blocking my bot and testing it, but of course the consensus isn't here to use it. --Rschen7754 23:04, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

I thought all you can do is revdel it, and that still leaves a record in the block log. I did't think you can oversight it....???? --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:16, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

It's only revdel. I don't have OS, so I can't comment on if it can be done that way. --Rschen7754 23:20, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

It should leave a struck through line, so anyone can see that this editor was blocked, but not the reason. Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:41, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Oh, okay. I did my test a while ago, so I remember it did something, but didn't remember exactly what. :) --Rschen7754 23:45, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Actually may be wrong. I forget - I have oversight, so I can always see where an edit has been revision deleted

- it shows that a block happened at a specific time but everything else is blocked out, at least for me. If I look at the revision specifically, I can see everything as an admin. (Don't worry, I'll undo this :) ) --Rschen7754 00:04, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Don't worry, there isn't a problem with testing (I've got a load of revdels of move logs, testing something for someone last week). Do you think it's worse to see a block with no reason? Or a block with a reason followed by an apologetic unblock. I wonder if you can oversight the block log. Half a mo.....Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:12, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

What do you see now - I've oversighted it. Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:14, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

It's completely gone. There's one block and 2 unblocks. --Rschen7754 00:26, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Yay. So if there was a policy, an admin could ask an oversighter to oversight his snafu. And if there was a different policy, some community decision making process could ask an oversighter to remove a bad block (an error of judgement, not a complete foul up). Could you check your own admin log, to see if it has disappeared from there as well. Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:30, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

The block has, but the revdel is still visible (though I suppose it could be OS'ed as well). However, clicking on the associated link results in "The action you have requested is limited to users in one of the groups: Oversighters, afttest-hide." --Rschen7754 00:34, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Peanut gallery notes You'd wanna disappear the unblock, too. (Us peons can count) NE Ent 00:38, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

FTR, I don't want it completely disappeared. I would like it if there were some record, somewhere, that includes all the blocks, even the inadvertent ones, to help make sure the system isn't gamed. But make it so that the block log easily viewable would contain only those that were in the oopsie category. I don't even want to remove those where many admins would say they wouldn't block in those circumstances, and the original blocking admin agrees it was a little overzealous. Leave that one there. I want to remove only those like the "Oops I thought it was an impersonator, don't I feel foolish", or "oh yeah, that comment was directed at you, not by you". Some of this is personal. I have a clean block log, plan to keep it that way, and would be royally pissed if someone accidentally blocked me. If I'm skating near the edge, and someone blocks me, even if many wouldn't that's on me. But if someone misreads a diff, or clicks the wrong button, I'd sure like it if that could be removed from the main block log, and I'd be happy that it remains in the longer record. I want to be able to say "I have a clean block log". I don't want to have to say, well, when you look at my block log, here's what you need to know..."--SPhilbrick(Talk) 01:01, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Of course there should be a method to remove a mistaken block from the main log (although I agree there should be a publicy viewable audit trail somewhere). Another point is that sometimes a misguided admin blocks a user, then unblocks them a few hours later when an ANI discussion shows they were mistaken. The problem is that I have seen a couple of cases where the unblock was dripping with a "you got away with it this time" attitude in the unblock edit summary, when the summary should have said "community consensus is that the block was totally wrong, sorry". Any new scheme needs a way for another admin to annotate the record with the correct summary, however, firm guidelines would be needed to reduce the amount of wasted time in considering "review my block log" requests from the usual suspects. Johnuniq (talk) 02:22, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

To my mind in the second instance, you would want an audit trail of the admin's bad block and subsequent conduct (in case he made a habit of it). Another admin could revdel the unblock summary, but without a technical change they wouldn't be able to amend it. You could do a hack by reblocking and unblocking with a better summary, then having the original block and the reblock oversighted, but I don't think that's at all a good solution.Elen of the Roads (talk) 12:48, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

• As the first part of the process, I'd like to suggest a change to the Oversight policy to allow suppression of a block/unblock entry in the block log where the following conditions are met:

1. The block resulted from a factual error(admin has blocked the wrong user) not from an error of judgement on the part of the admin (admin intended to block the user, but block is not supported by policy/consensus).
2. The admin who made the block is the one requesting suppression
3. The user has already been unblocked and advised that suppression will be requested

Technically, Arbcom isn't supposed to make policy (before anyone makes that point), but I'm just proposing this as an admin who has made a screw up. I think it would be preferable to separate this out from developing a policy on errors of judgement, as this is much more clear cut and should be less contentious. Thoughts anyone? Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:06, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

So I assume this would include admin blocking self. --Rschen7754 20:13, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

No, that would definitely be excluded Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:26, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

All block log entries should be expunged automatically by the software 6 months after the unblock, if the person isn't reblocked in that interval. There is entirely too much drama and long term conflict from people getting pissy about block logs. Giano was a mostly-sane editor until he melted down over a block, similarly Mbz1, Malleus, etc. If someone does something bad enough that it needs to be remembered longer than 6 months, then people will remember it, there will be discussion threads to point at, etc. What we have now is a moronic combination of kindergarten and Orwell: "this is going on your permanent record!!!" The book Delete: The Virtue of Forgetting in the Digital Age (ISBN 0691150362) looks very interesting. We do not need to memorialize all this stuff, just because we have enough computers to each be our own little FBI Records Division. 67.119.3.105 (talk) 00:23, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

This discussion has been mentioned at Misplaced Pages talk:Blocking policy#Urgently required. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 09:40, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

ANI response

I wroting the response your complaint on ANI. --B767-500 (talk) 01:05, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

and another ?

what about Keep UFC Articles (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) ? Mtking 19:20, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

.....and another one gone, and another one gone...another one bites the dust! (although Black Kite was the one that got him) --Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:32, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

WP:RFAR

You might take notice of my discussion at User talk:Courcelles. I appreciate your open-minded and thoughtful consideration during what was/is obviously an uncomfortable situation. Of course, the decision is still entirely within the domain of ArbCom, but I felt the information may be of use to you. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:20, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

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Help with upset editor

Hi Elen of the Roads. I am involved in an AFD discussion here that has gone strange. User:Qworty has struck my text and accused me of being the blocked paid editor Morning277. I see from the investigation here that you have recently been involved, so I was hoping you could assist. I'm a new editor and have made less than 20 edits to discussions. I've never edited an article. I'm happy to turn over my account for a user investigation. Can you please help? BeyondKneesReach (talk) 04:46, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I have asked Qworty to file a request for a check in the appropriate place, as that is the correct operating procedure. Making allegations in the middle of a deletion discussion is not the way to go. However, if you are a new editor, I'm a duck, so would you care to advise me as to any previous editing you have done. You can do so privately by email if you prefer. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 12:47, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I just wanted to note that several editors have commented about several aspects of Qworty's conduct and editing practices and they seem very resistent. Many can be seen be reading through the users talk page and checking out the contribs. It might be time for an intervention. 138.162.0.46 (talk) 14:21, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Ok. I'm happy to discuss here. I've been a member since Sep. 25 but I made my first real edit on Nov. 9, although I did make one small edit to an article from my IP address before I created an account. That was probably a year ago and I assume it will show in the check user. My primary interest is in policy, so I've done quite a bit of reading in the Misplaced Pages space but haven't made any contributions in that regard. Out of boredom I have spent several hours watching discussions on the Misplaced Pages IRC help channel. That's my full Wiki bio BeyondKneesReach (talk) 17:09, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

User_talk:Qworty#John_Bassette_Notability_tag seems to go against WP:NPA. My interest in Qworty started with User_talk:Qworty#Suzon_Fuks where in his zeal to combat COI he assumed that a drama student somewhat incompetently editing an article about a drama specialist (for a coursework assignment) was a WP:SPA showing WP:COI and added an incorrect and confusing banner without any prior enquiry or discussion, in an apparent lack of WP:AGF and in contravention of the guidelines at Misplaced Pages:COI#Noticeboards_and_templates ("First approach...", "If you are sure..."). PamD 17:53, 15 November 2012 (UTC) amended 18:17, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I would like to encourage you...

to run for ArbCom again. It's a thankless task, and I'm certain it's a terrible timesink, but I'd feel better if you were running. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:29, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Hear hear Worm(talk) 09:33, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

• I'll be honest, I had been very much in two minds about running anyway - I have been very brassed off by certain events. Then, it looks like "civility woo-woo" is going to form a key issue for this election, and while I have no concern about anyone asking my position (see User:Elen of the Roads/On editing in a collaborative project where I've been working up thoughts I initially expressed at my RfA), I have a real concern about how the debate might be conducted. It is (in my opinion, I'm sure all politicians everywhere would disagree) low politics to pick on individuals to highlight the issues of the day, creating victims or bogeymen usually without the consent of the individuals concerned. Certain parties have indicated that they intend to ask why did you not sanction User:this user for this statement or that phrase relating to certain contentious discussions on sanctions from the recent past. This has the potential to turn into a rerun of the original request to sanction, which is simply not fair to any third party being picked on for the next War of Jennifer's Ear when he never wanted to be Joe the Plumber in the first place.

• I appreciate that this is a bit of a convoluted statement, probably makes no sense to anyone else, and I'm probably worrying about nothing. The community by and large has good sense and would probably see through this kind of behaviour if anyone was to try it. And the other community issue - the role and structure of Arbcom itself - is an excellent topic for discussion, ranging from replace it with a couple of WMF staffers to triple the size and create "lower courts". --Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:20, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

• It makes sense to one who hangs out in the unsavory gutters of Misplaced Pages. If you're willing to continue to serve, that'd be great; reading User:AGK/ACE2012, it's certainly understandable if you choose not to. As regards to any "why did (didn't) you..." questions, I'd suggest approximately Because based on the information available to me it was in the best interests of Misplaced Pages. I explained my reasoning to the best of my ability at the time of closing; further discussion at this point is simply not fair to to the parties involved in the case. Make template, subst as required... Sure, you might lose some of the ArbCom-make-policy-by-fiat crowd, but I'm confident (hopeful?) the grown-up vote will prevail. NE Ent 13:49, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

• I had not seen that essay before, Elen. I'm glad you linked it. It is good to see we share many common ideas. I had already decided to support if you were to make another run, but those words help solidify my support. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:53, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

• Please run again. You do this difficult job very well. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:21, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

• +1 I agree with all those above. I was going to try and write something profound to encourage you - but then I found out most of what I would have said is already said better, here. Begoon  04:38, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I did not vote for you when you were elected. I would like the opportunity to remedy that.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:17, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I never thought of it, but I suppose if I had, I would probably not have expected you to vote for me, as you had expressed concerns at my RfA. I'm pleased you don't think I've made a complete hash of it - it often feels as an Arb as if one is reduced to picking the least worst option. Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:37, 18 November 2012 (UTC) (inserted italics - realised that sentence could be read two ways Elen of the Roads (talk) 10:33, 18 November 2012 (UTC))

• I don't suppose you know me from Adam, but I came here to say that I voted for you in 2010 and hope to have the opportunity to do so again. I may not agree with you all the time, but I see yours as a consistent voice of reason and I believe you care deeply about the project. Fwiw. Rivertorch (talk) 06:39, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

• I notice you have yet to add your name to the pile, so I assume you are mulling it over. No one could blame you, it is generally a thankless job. While I sometimes grump at the Committee (a favorite pass-time of many Wikipedians), and freely admit I should grump a bit less, the committee is better because of you. I guess you have to ask if you are better because of it. Whatever you decide, thanks for what you have done. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:22, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

• Voice of reason. I hope you will consider running again. (olive (talk) 17:32, 19 November 2012 (UTC))

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2012/Candidates#Elen_of_the_Roads

• • Good to hear. Hope it didn't take too many pints to talk yourself into another two years of bludgeoning. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:43, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

ANI

I was looking to see the denouement of the Kraxler ANI at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents, but it is gone, I do not see it in the archives either. Can you find it for me? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 14:59, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

• (talk page stalker) Using the search feature, it should be one of these: Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:03, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive774#User_Kraxler_using_abusive_language_and_deleting_talk_page_information NE Ent 15:22, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank You

I wanted to thank you for your comment to Qworty regarding the level of hostility in his/her interactions with me. You are quite right; there have been no real conflicts between me and other editors in the past 2-3 years. This recent attack on over 30 articles I've created and/or edited has been quite a shock, and I've bit my lip and tried not to react in kind. Whole reference sections and properly-constructed bibliographies have been deleted as "unsourced", then the articles have been nominated for deletion as "non-notable". I welcome any attention you can give to the issue (understanding that your comment did not mean you were taking sides or anything).Rosencomet (talk) 19:47, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Elen, could you perhaps have a look at the recent history of Association for Consciousness Exploration? I've acted boldly. PamD 07:21, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

While the notability of the subject is a little marginal, that merge discussion was closed five years ago at the time Rosencomet's editing was being examined by Arbcom. Popping up now and announcing that the consensus is to merge is just plain disruptive. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:34, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

I would like to thank you for looking into this matter, and for your actions. I would ask you to look at Starwood Festivals Qworty edits as well. I would also like to point out that Qworty's Starwood crusade, as another editor called it, has affected over thirty articles. Three have already been deleted as non-notable; at least ten more have been nominated. In several cases it has included wholesale deletion of entire reference sections and bibliographies as "unsourced", and other IMO questionable practices. There have been many tags for non-notability on prominent authors such as Patricia Monaghan and Raymond Buckland, and musicians/bands like Amampondo and Badi Assad. The COI tags are also problematic; they all seem to be assumptions that an appearance at the Starwood Festival, even twenty or thirty years ago, means I should not be allowed to edit the article, although the arbcom decided no such thing. Also, some of the articles are of people that have NEVER appeared there, like Badi Assad and Prem Das. This has every indication, IMO, of an attack by someone I have locked horns with in the past editing under a new name. You'll find a list on my talk page.Rosencomet (talk) 17:09, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I wondered if he had a previous incarnation. Not a problem obviously, as long as the other account is retired and not blocked. Don't get me wrong - I'm no fan of spam - but there isn't a problem if an article started a bit spammy, and got improved over time. And tagging Monaghan and Buckland for non-notability is just nonsense. I've been thinking his edits warrant a closer look. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:07, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Further check shows the account was created in 2007 under this username, so maybe you've had a run-in with him before. I've restored Raymond Buckland and am adding references - Google Books is a great source in this area. Should you have a copy of any of the varied "encyclopaedias of witchcraft" I believe they will be evidence of Buckland's status within the community. I'll see if I can track down some publishers stats as well. A lot of the others you list I know almost nothing about. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:23, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

I greatly appreciate your efforts. As to his/her identity, there are a few possibilities, some of them blocked. I was never convinced, for instance, that we tracked down all of Mattisse's sockpuppets. (She was the one who caused much of my problem in 2006, first demanding citations of non-controversial material, then accusing me of link-farming when I supplied them.)

I guess the ones actually nominated for deletion are the most critical. Of those, Donald Michael Kraig, Phyllis Curott, Baba Raul Canizares, Anodea Judith, Kenny Klein and the South African band Amampondo are probably the most ridiculous to call non-notable. A look at the pre-Qworty versions will demonstrate that easily. Which is not to say that the sourcing doesn't merit more work, just to be fair.Rosencomet (talk) 16:23, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Someone would have noticed if he was Mattisse, believe me. And he seems to have taken my advice and moved on to bringing some old articles up to snuff. Only Donald Michael Kraig and Kenny Klein are actually up for deletion - I've never heard of either, but it won't hurt to look for sources. I'll finish Buckland over the weekend - I'm surprised it was in such a poor state, there are a lot of sources about Buckland and Gardner particularly. Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:07, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry; some have had their deletion nominations removed. Here is an updated list of articles Qworty has nominated for deletion that still have the tag. Of course, you might not agree that none of these should be so tagged; frankly, I have already said as much about Brushwood. I don't intend to sway you, just to ask you to review their pre-Qworty versions and see what you think. Thanks again.:

Louis Martinie, David Jay Brown, Luisah Teish, Patricia Monaghan, M. Macha Nightmare, Trance Mission, Matthew Abelson, Kenny Klein, Brushwood Folklore Center, Donald Michael Kraig, LaSara FireFox and Ian Corrigan.

OK. I've taken a look at them all. There's nothing to stop you contributing in the AfDs by the way, particularly if you have any more sources, and from replacing deleted content if you have a reliable source. From the top of the list

• Patricia Monaghan AfD is heading for keep, meets WP:AUTHOR
• Raymond Buckland not at AfD and I am working on it
• Amampondo snow kept at AfD (I think Qworty is unfamiliar with the world music scene, to be fair)
• Badi Assad I have removed the tags - you removed the suspect coi editing (someone kept replacing the article with the content of her website) and there are reviews in world music publications
• Prem Das I have removed COI tag but left the notability tag, as I think notability is not well evidenced and another couple of sources supporting notability wouldn't hurt
• Donald Michael Kraig I have opined on the AfD that I think he meets WP:CREATIVE based on the Raven Grimassi reference in the Encyclopedia of Wicca and Witchcraft
• Phyllis Curott Removed four tags, article could do with more content but subject has demonstrated notability from the outset
• Baba Raul Canizares I have removed the COI tag but left the notability tag as there is not much in the article. You can help by finding some sources that demonstrate notability. If you find a source, you can restore some of the deleted content, otherwise someone else may nominate him at AfD (in fact, somebody has)
• Anodea Judith I have removed the refimprove tag as the small amount of content is cited. Subject is definitely notable. The long list of references seems excessive for the two lines of content, so I presume it sources some removed content. If you want to add back any removed content, include an inline citation.
• Kenny Klein Is he better known for his music? I can find very little that suggests the wider world has noticed him
• Louis Martinie AfD is debating either creating an article for the book he co-authored or redirecting to the article on Sallie Ann Glassman
• David Jay Brown at AfD. Doesn't look as if anyone can find evidence of notability
• Luisah Teish at Afd, should be kept. You should opine there
• M. Macha Nightmare At AfD. If I were closing (which I'm definitely not) I would keep
• Trance Mission At AfD and likely to be deleted. Another editor has decided to improve it, and seems to have made things rather worse
• Matthew Abelson no comments at AfD. Really doubt this chap is notable in Misplaced Pages definition
• Brushwood Folklore Center you've already said yourself that notability is pretty marginal
• LaSara FireFox At Afd - Steve with his Highbeam account has turned up that she was interviewed by the Chicago-Sun-Times in 2005 and her column in New Witch magazine got a mention in the Washington Post in 2003. I have opined that the CST article should take her over the bar.
• Ian Corrigan At AfD - doesn't look like this guy is notable in Misplaced Pages terms

The David Jay Brown article has been deleted. I thought it ended a bit early since the "vote" (I know it isn't really) was tied, and the editor who closed it referred to Brown as part of the "Crackpot Fringe". Hopefully someone without my perceived COI will recreate it one day. Oh well.

In the meantime, there are a few of Qworty's deletion nominations that really should, IMO, be closed: Trance Mission, M. Macha Nightmare, Kenny Klein, LaSara FireFox and Luisah Teish have overwhelmingly "Keep" comments. Could you or someone else please consider closing these? Thank you.Rosencomet (talk) 20:09, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Just FYI - M. Macha Nightmare, LaSara FireFox and Luisah Teish have already closed. The decision on each was Keep. Trance Mission (which was extended) and Kenny Klein are still open. Rosencomet (talk) 14:58, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/BStudent0

Given the latest MtPrincess (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), is there a range block that might help out ? Mtking 20:05, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

one other question any link between this and Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/A Nobody or Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Temporary for Bonaparte Mtking 20:14, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

CUs who knew A Nobody better than I say they do not believe either Temporary for Bonaparte or BStudent0 is him. I've been blocking IPs sequentially - at this rate I could end up blocking every campus in Ohio. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:29, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Followup

Did you get to this ? NE Ent 00:36, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Haven't had time yet. If someone else wants to pick it up, feel free. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:00, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

No worries. You get to when you get to it. Ents famously prefer not to be hasty. Was mostly checking to make sure nothing was stuck in a spam filter somewhere. NE Ent 01:04, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

User:Bull-Doser

I promised to not post again on his talk page and I won't. But these two edits are concerning. I don't think he understands the message you posted two weeks ago that he cannot edit while he's blocked. Or maybe he thought he could legitimately edit with his old User:Take Me Higher account.

Contrary to what some people may think, I don't necessarily want Bull-Doser to stay blocked for eternity. It would be great to see Bull-Doser becoming a positive contributor someday. I think he has the potential to bring a lot to Misplaced Pages if only he would listen to others for a change instead of living in his world. But edits such as these two recent ones coupled with his lack of interaction with others makes me think that he's not ready yet to be back. Farine (talk) 04:02, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

• I've been following this one since day one, and I tend to agree that there appears to be an incapacity to comprehend. It isn't about willingness, it is about ability. Sutble, but real. I had declined an earlier request for different reasons, but the exchanges all over the talk page speak for themselves. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 04:10, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
• The Take Me Higher account is blocked so he can't use it. He just seems very clueless, and so far he's not particularly listening to some of the explanations. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:03, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

A brownie for you!

Just because. StAnselm (talk) 06:07, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you so kindly :) And virtual brownies contain no sugar! Its all good. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:05, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Yay!

I was worried it wasn't going to happen. --Floquenbeam (talk) 01:26, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

There was some concern here also. This will be an "interesting" election, with certain tactical considerations to voting. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 05:15, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

• I've hit something of a timing snag. I wasn't intending to run, and because of that arranged to go on holiday for four days from tomorrow (hubby and I are going to Edinburgh for a late birthday treat). I then allowed myself to be talked into running (you know who you are, damn you!) at a point where outside activities have eaten up my time (if I say I'm heading up a project that involves building work and a deadline and a health and safety course with a written exam....). So I'm not going to get all the questions - most of the questions even - answered. Just have to see how that goes; lacking the ability to clone myself, there's not much else I can do. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:37, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't bother me; I don't have any questions. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 12:05, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, as Otter told Flounder in Animal House 'You fucked up .... you trusted us.' I suggest posting a note on your candidate page saying you'll be offline on {{ engvar | default=holiday | en-us=vacation }} during the question period. NE Ent 13:00, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

I'll see what I can get done and post that note this evening. Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:17, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

For the record, the tree shaping case is nothing personal; I didn't even realize that it was the case you drafted. --Rschen7754 22:08, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

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Notification of statement

This is to notify you that you have been named in a statement issued by the arbitrators not running for re-election, regarding the recent leaks from arbcom-l. If you have comments regarding the statement, please post them to the Arbitration Committee's Noticeboard talk page at Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Statement regarding recent leaks from arbcom-l. For the Arbitration Committee, Hersfold 05:32, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Elen, who did you leak the private emails to? Cla68 (talk) 07:05, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Also, are you the butler in the Vatileaks scandal? :) Jeff Kilmar 08:27, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Lol. But seriously, I haven't been forwarding emails anonymously to anyone. The actual words (now I believe on JClemens userpage) were not what made me mad, it was the intent to carry out what appeared to me to be an attack on another editor as part of his election campaign. I discussed his stated approach in depth with someone in a private chat, then I put the note you will see above on my talkpage a week ago. The worrying thing is that someone else is allegedly sending emails to people (or Coren at least). --Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:18, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Please resign

Elen, please resign from the Arbcom and your adminship, effectively immediately. 24.61.9.111 (talk) 07:49, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Please use your main account, my brave fellow. Bishonen | talk 17:48, 26 November 2012 (UTC).

Hej IP! Your statement is in violation of my copyright, which was asserted 2 years ago! Misplaced Pages takes copyright violations very seriously, you should know! Kiefer.Wolfowitz 13:04, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi Elen!

Please just take it easy for a day. I trust that you had good reasons. My guess is that you wanted to warn the possible victims of leaks, having learned from previous leaking scandals the damages that can occur.

Sincerely, Kiefer.Wolfowitz 13:08, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

If you resign over what is essentially fallout from the worst behaviour by an arbitrator I have ever seen, attempting to deflect attention from his own indefensible statements and actions, then I'll retire. Difference is - lots of people would miss you, and your enormous contribution. Begoon  13:26, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Please do not resign, and let the community decide on your continued service. Some of the candidates scare me.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:37, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

• All this talk of resigning is premature and serves no purpose. Elen has earned enough trust over the years that it would be best to reserve judgement until the facts are out. Like most dramah at Misplaced Pages, the reality of the situation is likely quite different than the rhetoric that is flying around. Everyone would do themselves a favor by stepping back and just taking a deep breath for a day or two. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:38, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Per Wehwalt. You know you're doing something right when certain people oppose you. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:41, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm at work at the moment. Give me till this evening to post a statement - the Arb statement (which I only saw an hour or so ago) isn't the full tale. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:46, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

• I'm afraid I must disagree with Dennis in respect of the "trust" Elen has gained. She went on record flatly denying that arbcom held a secret page on me - brusquely dismissing my claims out of hand. A few days later a fellow arbitrator emailed me to confirm the page did indeed exist. Oops. Naturally I won't be voting for Elen at the fortcoming election. However - neither am I calling for her resignation over this issue (and certainly not her admin tools, which would seem unrelated). So as someone who honestly thinks ARBCOM would be far better off without Elen of The Roads, but as someone who thinks Elen should certainly be an admin I have to disagree with the IP's knee-jerk request. Pedro :  Chat  20:29, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Struck latter half. More stuff falls out and SandyGeorgia has made some fine points. I note the motion below. Good. If Elen thinks she should remain an admin is up to her, I guess. If she thinks she should remain a contributor to Misplaced Pages is also up to her as well. Pedro :  Chat  21:08, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Pedro, there never was a seekrit Arbcom page. The Arbitrator who contacted you was the only one who had any idea what you were talking about, which wasn't a seekrit Arbcom page at all. Still, why spoil a good story. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:24, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

As I have an email with a subject line of "The Secret Page - it exists" it rather looks like you're wrong. I'll not go further. Evidently disclosing private e-mails is your expertise not mine. Pedro :  Chat 

Not saying the page didn't exist. Just that it was something only one person remembered the existence of, not a page where Arbcom were actively plotting to throw you off the project, which was what you thought at the time. Which was a bit confusing, since no-one was fortunately. But you know that - you've got that email which explains it. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:54, 26 November 2012 (UTC) That sounds snarky, and Pedro really was genuinely worried at the time that he was the subject of some Arbcom campaign to get rid of him, because of this page filed away somewhere that should have been deleted ages before it eventually was.

• With respect to Pedro (as I'm sure he knows, real respect, not fake respect), I think we'd be better off with you (Elen) remaining on ArbCom for 2013-15. Per Wehwalt above, there are candidates that I find worrying. You might not be better off, but I'm a selfish bastard so I don't care. WRT to everything else, I agree with a comment you've made in your statement below: the one thing that concerns me is your lack of transparency when ArbCom asked what happened. That was a mistake, but assuming you're human, you get to make those occasionally, and it doesn't rise to the level of negating the good work you do, and the benefit of having you on AC. It's a hallmark of dysfunctional organizations that they react to small mistakes with firings, so I'm not sure what the future holds, but if you choose to continue to run, I'm still supporting your candidacy. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:06, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

To be honest Floq, the mistake was dragging some poor third party into it at all. I should have just posted on my talkpage to start with and not involved anyone else. But I needed someone to talk to, and then I was trying to avoid shit getting thrown at him. Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:06, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, I was trying to imagine what I would have done in your position. It seems pretty... "lonely", I guess I'll say... maybe "insular" is a better word... not to be able to bounce ideas about non-private information off of someone unless they're already on the AC. If this was someone's private information, of course, you can't go sharing that, and having to deal with that kind of thing alone is, I guess, why you Arbs make the big money. But discussing, with a non-arb, the content of the JClemens email I see posted on his talk page doesn't seem wrong; I might have done the same thing if it troubled me. Much of the reaction I've seen so far seems draconian.

I guess I can think of several things that might improve the situation in the future. But since they don't involve putting JClemens' head or your head on pikes, or overthrowing ArbCom, or assigning blame, I don't imagine people are interested in hearing them right now. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:23, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Depends - I might be interested if it involves getting hammered.--v/r - TP 23:44, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

No heads on spikes? Then I'm not interested either. Malleus Fatuorum 01:50, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Might have been better to discuss it with another arbitrator, or a former arb who is still on the mailing list (unless they got rid of that). Is it established that your confidant/e spilled the email? Anyway I see an error of judgment on Elen's part, but not a fatal one based on what's known so far. Even the CIA director can't keep email private, so the rest of us have no hope. I'm comfortable with Elen staying on arbcom, just be more careful next time. 67.119.3.105 (talk) 01:10, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

They got rid of the having old arbs stay subscribed forever thing. It would have been better to discuss it with another Arb. That was poor judgement. Elen of the Roads (talk) 02:49, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

FYI

. Courcelles 20:59, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

View from this bridge

Can I first of all confirm that I have at no time ever disclosed any of the sensitive personal information that has been sent to the arbcom mailing list. The mailing list software distributes email sent to the list (it's not webmail). When I cease to be an arbitrator, I will dump that part of my email archive. There is no requirement for ex-arbs to do this, but any UK organisation that permitted ex-employees to retain sensitive personal data after they left would suffer legal consequences, so I believe it is the correct thing to do.

Second, can I confirm that I am not the person sending anonymous emails. If I particularly wanted Coren to see that piece of text, I would just have sent it to him. I don't know who is behind that.

What JClemens had said about what he would do when he ran for Arbcom was said as part of a rambling conversation between a number of committee members, which got round to Hobbes Leviathan at one point. It moved on to civility, and views from the recent case were rehashed. Following this, JClemens sent the email on his talkpage, indicating that he was going to ask candidates whether a particular statement by Malleus Fatuorum should have resulted in a ban and, if not, why not. As has been alluded to elsewhere, several Arbs indicated that it was not appropriate to send it to the list, it belonged off list.

What I did do is discuss it with a third party, in a private chat. I was worried that Malleus would react to the question with one of his anglo saxon epithets, and another request for a ban would ensue. People were asking me if I would stand again, I did not want to get involved in this, but I did not know what to do for the best. Yes, I was angry and used some unparliamentary language. And yes, I did reproduce the words as part of the discussion. To say 'at the upcoming election I am going to stand on this platform and ask this question'- it simply did not seem to me to be something that had been said under the seal of the confessional (an absolute guarantee of non-disclosure).

Eventually I concluded that I was over-reacting, and the community would reach it's own verdict, so I just put the note you can see higher up this talkpage.

The next thing I knew, people were apparently getting anonymous emails with the text on JClemens talkpage. Where I do consider I made a substantial error of judgement is not at that point reporting back to Arbcom immediately everything I had said. This was because the person I had confided in assured me they were not sending random emails (and I have no reason to think they were) and I did not want them to be subjected to the hassle they were eventually subjected to.

So that's what happened.

I understand the view of those who say that everything ever said on that list must be under the seal of the confessional. My view is that ultimately a closed list creates an 'us and them' mindset because you can't discuss things with anyone else, and there's no requirement for propriety. I've seen it on a lot of forums, and would prefer to see much better confidentiality for personal data, and less exclusivity in discussion. That said, this was not an attempt to dismantle the list.

I also understand the view of those who don't think it was the sin that cannot be forgiven, but still think it was a huge error of judgement and I'm a complete incompetent.

I also understand the view of those who don't think there is a huge problem, but wouldn't trust me

I refute wild speculation about how I'm going to go mad and publish loads of personal data.

I'll accept whatever happens next. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:16, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Could you kindly clarify what you mean by "What I did do is discuss it with a third party, in a private chat.", did this involve the release of email or snippets of emails, including the email Jclemens sent and that was later received by Coren and NW? Snowolf 21:23, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Also got a quick question: You shared the content of JClemens' mail in private with someone, and then right after that someone else sent the content of that mail around anonymously to various user, but that someone else was neither you nor the person you shared the content of the mail with? --Conti|✉ 21:29, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi Snowolf, Conti. Going to answer you both. Sorry, I thought I made it clear it included I think probably all of what's on JC's talkpage, plus the wording of the question he said he was going to ask. Incidentally, under the 'seal of the confessional' rules, just discussing it is as bad an offence as repeating what was actually said. I now know that the person who emailed NW was the person I discussed it with - I didn't discover this until recently. He used his own name and must have anticipated that NW would just refer it back to the committee, which makes me even more convinced he's not behind the anonymous email to Coren. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:43, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I think that's an honest comment, Elen, although it is vague as Snowolf has pointed out. I'm one of the folks who thinks you made a bad judgement call and you should step down from Arbcom. That said, Elen, I've always had immense respect for you and I still hold you in a high regard. I'm disappointed is all. Good luck.--v/r - TP 21:35, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I appreciate that. See note above re vagueness Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:43, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I take the completely opposite view, and wish that there were more disclosures about the unsavoury goings on in these secret email lists. Bollocks to the "rules", we need a damn sight more honesty and integrity. But it may be of course that Elen and I have a shared Anglo-Saxon legacy, just that she tones hers down a notch or two. (In the interests of full disclosure it's more likely that my ancestors were Normans, but hey, that was a long time ago now, let's forgive and forget.) Malleus Fatuorum 21:46, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Pretty certain my English ancestors were of saxon stock, but we'll let bygones be bygones. It is the problem with any closed list, forum (Delphi moderator forums were often terrible for it) or chat room. If noodling, laundry lists and personal attacks are all under the same seal of the confessional, nothing gets challenged, and it can create a hothouse atmosphere. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:04, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

To be clear, I don't think the leak was a bad judgement call. Whistle-blowers are necessary to the health of any society. I think not taking ownership early was a bad judgement call. The rest of my comment still applies.--v/r - TP 22:06, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Anyone who sees something bad happening has a duty to speak out, so I'm wondering why the other sitting arbitrators just sat on their hands rather than exposing Jclemens' bully-boy tactics. Malleus Fatuorum 22:14, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

We agree.--v/r - TP 22:23, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

It seems that we do, except for the small matter of Elen stepping down from ArbCom. I hope that she's re-elected with a resounding majority for taking an ethical stand against Jclemens, someone who should never have been elected to ArbCom in the first place. Malleus Fatuorum 22:31, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

With respect to Elen, I am not sure how these particular actions can be viewed as ethical. She secretly intimated confidential matters to a group of special friends and then lied to the Committee for weeks. While I am sure her actions in other cases are quite ethical, this situation was handled in one of the worst ways possible. Jeff Kilmar 00:21, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

What is confidential about an election statement? Just curious. What makes the statemet "at the elections I am going to publically do this" confidential? Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:26, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

First, I should say that you are handling a difficult situation with poise, and I thank you for responding kindly despite the fact that I was criticizing an action of yours. Now since you ask, I understand the view that all material should be public except that which directly involves personally-identifiable data or the like. However, that is not the policy at this time. You surely are more aware than anyone that arbitrators have an expectation of privacy for all list communication. If you wanted to change that, it doesn't seem quite right to just go ahead - that creates a sense of betrayal. Rather, you might have posted a motion to end secret mailing lists. The fact that you disclosed an email that the writer expected to be confidential seems unethical. It has been the case for years that the permission of the sender has been needed to post emails. Maybe that should change - but just suddenly going ahead with disclosure seems a bit off. But others may not agree. Jeff Kilmar 00:34, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

In short: If you had told the other arbitrators when you were elected that you intended to disclose their emails, that would have been one thing. But you evidently let them think their communications were private, and then went ahead and disclosed them. That seems a bit underhanded somehow. Jeff Kilmar 00:37, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Point taken, and a very valid one if I may say. I don't believe JC was aware of my views, although the committee remaining from the previous year would have been aware of previously expressed opinions, as it had come up in discussion before. Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:29, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm disappointed that you were less than forthright with your fellow committee members in promptly revealing exactly to what information had been released; I fear this may make things more difficult for your future work on the Committee. At the end of the day, what is most important to me is the quality of decisions from the Committee, not occasional lapses of judgement from its individual members. It's fairly obvious to me that we are better off with you on the committee than off of it, so I will be voting for you shortly. NE Ent 00:30, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, foolish attempt to deflect the committee's attention from the person I had discussed it with (so they wouldn't blame him for the anonymous malarkey), not realising that he had in consternation bundled everything up and in effect sent it back to the committee. The mistake was dragging a third party into it at all. Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:34, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

I have a rather short attention span, and consequently find discussions such as this one difficult to follow without falling asleep. Who is this mysterious third party? Malleus Fatuorum 03:39, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Confiding in one trusted person, on an issue that is apparently going public anyway, that involves no private data, is something I can't condemn you for. Trying to get my head around this.

If your confidante didn't share the full text of Jclemens's now-public post with anyone, and neither your confidante nor you sent the anonymous Gmails, then someone else with access to the arbcom list did. That was either another arb who coincidentally decided to widely publicise Jclemens's intentions - which is possible but improbable - or more likely another arb who learned that you had disclosed the email to a confidante and decided to make a scandal out of it.

Are you aware of this being discussed anywhere other than here and

• Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Motions#Motions
• Misplaced Pages:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard
• Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard
• User_talk:Jclemens?

Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:21, 27 November 2012 (UTC) Strike my unhelpful speculation. 06:46, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Isn't this quite consistent with last year's leaking scandal? Who's been on the committee long enough to be implicated in both leaks? Malleus Fatuorum 04:25, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

No. The only common thread so far is that both involve disclosure of arbcom l posts. This case is targetted at EotR with a very specific and immediate petty political purpose, the former was some kind of grand statement about/assault on arbcom itself. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:32, 27 November 2012 (UTC) Strike my unhelpful speculation. 06:46, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

The last leaks were targeted at me, no "grand statement" that I could see. And this current leak also centres on me. Coincidence? Malleus Fatuorum 04:54, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Quite likely. I think the target of the anonymous Gmails was Elen not you. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:42, 27 November 2012 (UTC) Strike my unhelpful speculation. 06:46, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

I would like to ask Elen a question. Roger Davies has indicated that there is a sliding greyscale in email communications with arbcom and between arbitrators. That evidently does not apply to sensitive personal data. There is no doubt in my mind that Elen can be completely trusted with that kind of sensitive and confidential data. The matters under discussion here, however, did not involve personal data, but an inappropriate use of arbcom-l as part of an election campaign. I have assumed that prior to the email addressed to Risker published on his talk page, Jclemens had sent a previous shorter email, also concerning ACE2012 and Malleus Fatuorum, to arbcom-l. If so, without mentioning names, had any arbitrators already objected to that previous email as being off-topic or inappropriate for the list before Jclemens sent the second email? Mathsci (talk) 04:42, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

• I think Elen had a tough choice here - whether to stick to the letter of the rules and abide by the non-publication of a communication that she thought unethical, or to follow a moral course of action in exposing what looks to me like a malicious and bullying misuse of secret ArbCom communications channels and so putting herself at risk. In the event, it looks to me like she went for morality, and tried sounding out a third party - and that led to the whole thing coming out. While I could not recommend the routine publication of private ArbCom communications (because some really do need to be kept confidential), I support Elen's outing of this latest example of Jclemens' arrogant bully-boy tactics - and Mathsci makes a good point that this was not the kind of confidential information that ArbCom often holds about third parties and which really must be kept secret. I sincerely hope Elen's action does not significantly damage her support in the election, and I can only reiterate my own support. I have already cast my Support vote for Elen and my Oppose vote against Jclemens - and I do confess that in each case I clicked the button harder than I would otherwise have done. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:15, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

• Yes, I agree with Boing! And, yes, the votes are in. I trust you, I always have, and I see no reason to change. In fact, the morality of this tale adds to my sense of trust. But there is someone within ArbCom who is really, really playing politics here. I know who I think it is but in any event the field narrows with each election. Keep well, and keep doing what you do. - Sitush (talk) 00:33, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

• Elen, I know we have had our troubles and I was both surprised and sorry to see this chain of events. I think we both know I know all too well how things can spiral downhill from one bad decision. I just wanted to let you know that I think that you are handling it very well and I hope that this doesn't affect your participation in the project. As others I agree that Arbcom had to do something (and I posted a brief comment about that at the Arbcom page) based on the seriousness of the events and I think they acted pretty fairly, even though it may not seem like it. I doubt it will affect your election so in a month you'll have access to all the tools again and things will be back to normal. Kumioko (talk) 03:53, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

A cup of coffee for you!

Thought you could use one of these!! ♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 19:00, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Certainly could. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:43, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

Just noticed all the crap your getting, maybe a cute kitten will cheer you up, if not you can always eat it. You got my vote BTW, I have always been of the opinion you are one of the better admins around here. Cheers.

Darkness Shines (talk) 19:12, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Yum, kitten. Thanks. Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:44, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Disclosure about leak

Would you be willing or able to post the responses you gave to the Arbs on November 13th and November 25th respectively regarding the leak? I presume these are the dates where you acknowledged revealing details from the mailing list and I think it would be helpful to know what you specifically told the other Arbs regarding your communications with non-Arbs.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:48, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

I would be interested in seeing that as well. In the meantime, I have posted my thoughts on the matter at my voter guide. --Elonka 18:20, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

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A personal view

Elen: I wrote you a note above suggesting that you run again for arbitrator, and I have no regret now for having done so. When this recent brouhaha arose, I considered whether it would be best to vote for you or not in the current election, not because I have any doubt whatsoever about your discretion – which I do not – but simply because I wondered if your re-election might create a new ArbCom that was unable to be effective, given the actions taken by other arbs. In the end, I decided that it was best for the community that you be on the Committee, and that Jclemens not be, and I voted that way. We will see if other Wikipedians see things the way I have or not, but regardless of the outcome of the election, please know that at least one Wikipedian appreciates that you placed the good of the community above all else, and were willing to put yourself on the line. Best of luck to you, in the election and in all else. 10:31, 28 November 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beyond My Ken (talk • contribs)

I wholeheartedly endorse that sentiment. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:05, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to you both, whatever happens. At the end of the day, it's only dispute resolution (and the pay is lousy) :) --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:45, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for hiatus

Apologies for absence - had the most humongous migraine and been unable to look at a computer screen for two days.

To answer a few points:-

@Anthonycole - the party I talked to bundled up what I said and passed it to Nuclear Warfare, who promptly forwarded it to Sir Fozzie, who had it by the 13th and was asking about it. According to those who have seen it, what was sent to Coren was slightly different, and I have no idea who sent it. I would not like to speculate that it was another arbitrator, but the request to Coren to verify it by returning it to Arbcom suggests that it was not intended as a tip of but for other reasons.

@Mathsci - Risker and a couple of others had already attempted to shut the discussion down at an earlier stage, as it was in their opinion running completely off the rails. However, another member of the committee argued that there was no precedent for shutting down a discussion as Arbitrators could basically post however they felt led. One problem with this setup, where everything is as sacred as everything else, is that Arbitrators are free to post personal attacks or outrageous statements and there really is not a lot one can do about it.

@TDA and Elonka - it would make about a dozen emails but I will totally put my hands up and say that on the 13th I named the person I had spoken to. I had asked the person I had spoken to, and they said they had not sent any text to anyone, so I tried to protect them by saying (several times) that they did not have any verbatim text, but they did have all the details. This was plumb stupid, and I fully accept all condemnation for being plumb stupid.

I didn't send anything to Arbcom on the 25th. I sent the following message to SilkTork, saying I was going to put it on my talkpage when I got back home (I had no access to a pc at that point), and he forwarded it to Arbcom. I gather Arbcom got the details of what I had discussed with a third party by subjecting him to the "third degree" at some point prior to this.

As I referred to publically above, a couple of weeks ago another member of the committee posted what appeared to me to be an election manifesto to the main arbcom mailing list. As you can see above I disagreed with what he said In fact, I was bloody angry. I viewed it as low politics and was particularly concerned that it would have a very bad impact on a third party who hadn't signed up to be part of it. As such, mentioned it to a couple of people and discussed it in more detail with a friend (ranted at him about it would be nearer to mark, to be honest. I wouldn't score any civility points).

The situation is being compounded because someone else (I have honestly no idea who) is apparently sending the text of what I referred to as the election manifesto to some of the candidates using throwaway email accounts. No idea what the point of that is, it seems very childish to me. If I'd intended to advertise it, I'd have posted it on my talkpage. All it said (in several paragraphs - it was a political speech) is that he was disappointed that the current committee did not back his stance on civility, he wants to see a future Arbcom that backs his concept of civility, he intends to make that his platform, and he feels very strongly that the community supports him on this.

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Policy says that Arbitrators should preserve in appropriate confidence the contents of private correspondence sent to the Committee and the Committee's internal discussions and deliberations and the Committee treats as private all communications sent to it, or sent by a Committee member in the performance of their duties. However, Misplaced Pages:ARBCOM#Communications_and_privacy states that Arbitrators usually seek to treat your communications, including emails, as private when possible. We however cannot guarantee against public disclosure for a number of reasons, including potential security limitations. Accordingly, you should not disclose sensitive personal information in your communications with us. Once received, your communications may be shared with committee members and, in some limited cases, with third parties to assist in resolving issues or other purposes. Your communications may be kept for an undetermined period of time for archival or other reasons. So if you are an individual, you don't actually have a guarantee of privacy.

It is the view of some members of the Committee that everything an Arbitrator ever sends to that email address - bad jokes, gossip, laundry lists - is under the seal of the confessional and can never be repeated or referred to elsewhere. I do accept that some people will feel quite strongly that what is said in confidence should remain in confidence. Some will feel that what I did (talking it over with someone) was entirely beyond the pale and means I can never be trusted again. Personally, I think that far stricter confidentiality than that email list is required where personal data is being handled, but by and large the deliberations of the committee should be in public unless there is a privacy issue. Where this leaves election manifestos, bad jokes, gossip and laundry lists is anyone's guess.

As to why I haven't resigned. Well, some of what I said above is actually important. Arbcom have already acknowledged that their mailing list system is not suitable for sensitive personal information, but continue to use it for that purpose. It sends your personal information to third party email inboxes, over which it has no control. Data can be kept forever by persons who no longer have any affiliation with the organization. There isn't even a requirement to delete your email archive when your term of office ends. There's a reason English local councillors all have official email accounts - so the Council can make sure the archive gets deleted when the councillor's term of office ends.

And did you know that if Arbcom sends you an email, you can't share it with anyone. That's part of what "Sent by a committee member in the performance of their duties" means, and there have been fireworks repeatedly when someone has posted an email that an Arbitrator sent to them.

And a closed list where members can say what they like without fear of consequence because nobody can say anything elsewhere is ultimately corrosive. There is no reason to extend protection to every petty comment, every off the wall statement, every personal attack. Because that's what is being protected. Not sensitive personal data. Not state secrets. For goodness sake, this isn't NATO, it's dispute resolution. Why do we have this institution in the first place, this sooper seekrit list that people are terrified of. Let's get the personal information somewhere other than fired into random mailboxes, and get the discussion out in the open. Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:42, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

"get the discussion out in the open" should have been done a long time ago. There's no need for any secrecy in the proceedings of the Committee in the most situations. But what's bothering me, Elen, is that you came up with this "fresh" idea only now, when you yourself are getting scrutinized for leaking some emails.67.169.11.52 (talk) 02:32, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

It has come up several times before - the committee at one point during the past two years even agreed to set up an open access mailing list, but never did because it was technically impossible with the kit available. At the very start of my tenure I had a blazing row with Risker over this business of emails sent by the committee to a third party being confidential (ie the third party was forbidden from publishing them). Came up in the Rodhullandemu case - the email in question ended up on wiki anyway. PDs always used to be drafted on the arbwiki without any preliminary workshopping - after Monty Hall, I said I'd never do that again. Elen of the Roads (talk) 02:46, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for this bit of disclosure.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 16:25, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Pony!

	Pony!
	Hugs! For your patience and professionalism with the current situation, exhibiting grace under fire, you have received a pony! Ponies are cute, intelligent, friendly (most of the time, though with notable exceptions), promote good will, encourage patience, and enjoy carrots. Treat your pony with respect and he will be your faithful friend! Montanabw 01:14, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Awww. I always wanted a pony. No danger of speeding on a pony:) --Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:08, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

I dunno, those roadsters can go pretty fast! Montanabw 01:16, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Dispute resolution volunteer survey

Dispute Resolution – Volunteer Survey Invite Hello Elen of the Roads. To follow up on the first survey in April, I am conducting a second survey to learn more about dispute resolution volunteers - their motivations for resolving disputes, the experiences they've had, and their ideas for the future. I would appreciate your thoughts. I hope that with the results of this survey, we will learn how to increase the amount of active, engaged volunteers, and further improve dispute resolution processes. The survey takes around five to ten minutes, and the information you provide will not be shared with third parties other than to assist in analyzing the results of the survey. No personally identifiable information will be released. Please click HERE to participate. Many thanks in advance for your comments and thoughts. You are receiving this invitation because you have either listed yourself as a volunteer at a dispute resolution forum, or are a member of a dispute resolution committee. For more information, please see the page that describes my fellowship work which can be found here. Szhang (WMF) (talk) 02:46, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Survivor award

		The Survivor Award
		Escaping extrajudicial execution
		motion declined NE Ent 16:48, 29 November 2012 (UTC)}

I have to admit that at first glance that thing looked like some particularly old-fashioned kind of toilet. At least it isn't the Halifax Gibbet. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:17, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Arbitration motion

The arbitration motion regarding you has been archived as not passing. For the Arbitration Committee --Alexandr Dmitri (talk) 17:03, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Moral support

Hi Elen.

It looks to me like somebody used a private list inappropriately (which bothered you), you discussed it with a friend (which is what friends are for), your friend spread it around without your intent or consent (aargh!), and your hobby suddenly became a lot less fun (at least for the present).

If that's what happened, you absolutely have my sympathy and moral support. I also commend your cool-headedness thus far in response to it! --SB_Johnny | ✌ 21:52, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

That's about it, although in fairness to the other guy I don't think he intended anything like the drama it caused. A lesson all round, mostly for me. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:23, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Sadly it's far too easy on WP to cause drama with no intention of doing so ;-)... the hiccups happen when you don't keep that in mind. --SB_Johnny | ✌ 22:37, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Typical ArbCom drama. I don't think ArbCom should have anything private. You have my support as well. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 02:08, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

If Re-elected...

Hi Elen, I'm still trying to decide whether to support you in the ArbCom election, and wonder if I might ask a couple of questions...

1. If you are re-elected, what action(s) do you plan to take on the issue of inappropriate use of the mailing list by arbitrators?
2. What changes will you advocate for arbitration policy relating to mailing list misuse, confidentiality, and disclosure?
3. In the (admittedly unlikely) event that both you and JClemens are re-elected, how will you go about working together?
4. Suppose another situation occurred in which an arbitrator posted inappropriately to the list on a topic where the community arguably has a right to know. I refer to a post where disclosure would not violate the privacy of any editor and where the comments made are inconsistent with an arbitrator carrying out her or his duties. How would you handle this situation?
5. Relating to your recent actions, I am much more disturbed by your misleading your colleagues when asked about the leak than I am about seeking the counsel of a friend. Voting for an arbitrator involves trusting in his or her judgment and whilst I accept that you would not have disclosed personal confidential information, I am concerned that you were unwilling to be fully open about your actions. Please explain to me why I should vote in support of you continuing to serve on ArbCom.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. EdChem (talk) 02:35, 30 November 2012 (UTC) I am the editor who posted the questions above; I have removed the IP address from which they were posted. EdChem (talk) 07:26, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

What's much more concerning to me is that you choose to post from an IP address rather than from your registered account. It's difficult to find the right word to describe that sort of behaviour, but cowardice comes close. Malleus Fatuorum 03:39, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, if you can't find the right word, MF, then I hesitate to try, but maybe gutlessness has the right kind of ring to it? Begoon  03:51, 30 November 2012 (UTC) I apologise for my bad faith assumption. I offer no excuse for it. Begoon  07:35, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

I have many words to describe this sort of stupidity, but most of those who object to the honesty and integrity that Elen has displayed wouldn't understand them. If I'd confided in someone I'd believed to be a friend who subsequently decided to stitch me up I'd be more than a little bit peeved. Not that I have any friends of course, so my reply is entirely hypothetical. Malleus Fatuorum 04:34, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

It would be better if the contributor had signed in, I agree. Perhaps he or she forgot? It has happened to me. In any event, as someone who wholeheartedly supports Elen's bid for reelection, I think the questions are fair ones. Rivertorch (talk) 05:35, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Rivertorch. I appreciate your comments. For the record, I have not logged in to Misplaced Pages for quite a while, I left at a time I was grieving when I couldn't cope with everything that was upsetting me - which included some of the actions of ArbCom. I have watched Misplaced Pages from time to time since then, made a few IP edits, and wondered if I would come back and / or whether I'd vote in the ArbCom election. Malleus, I have been angered at your mistreatment by ArbCom and their collective failure to respond appropriately to Jclemens' "not a Wikipedian" behaviour was one of the low points in ArbCom history. Elen's response to Jclemens has actually made my voting (including for her) substantially more likely, and I wanted to ask some questions to help make my decision, so I posted them; I did not stop to consider whether to log in. You are all correct that I should have logged in, which I have now done to claim my questions. It was disrespectful to ask any candidate a question without logging in, and I apologise to Elen for that - Elen, I hope you will accept that my action in posting questions from an IP address was thoughtless rather than deliberately deceptive. Malleus and Begoon, I am not a coward nor am I gutless, I have no problem admitting the questions are mine, I hope you will accept that I was at worst foolish. I agree with Malleus that I would be "more than a little bit peeved" with my friend if I were Elen - which I suppose raises questions about her judgment - but I feel it is not appropriate for me to ask about that; Elen's mistake in this regard was a human one, as she has recognised, and the idea of an ArbCom whose members believe themselves incapable of human error is frightening. ArbCom is already far too reluctant to admit to error, and that is one of its flaws. If this whole incident leads to a greater openness and to a willingness to admit to error then something valuable will have been gained. EdChem (talk) 07:26, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Hello EdChem. I fear you caught a whiplash here because both Malleus and myself (and several other editors) have been plagued by trolling in times of trouble from what I can really only describe as anonymous cowards. I hope that time has helped to heal your real life grief, and you can return to this project and find pleasure in editing. I have answered your questions below, to the best of my ability.

If you are re-elected, what action(s) do you plan to take on the issue of inappropriate use of the mailing list by arbitrators?

Shut the damn mailing list down as soon as ever it's possible. It is totally unsuitable as a medium for holding sensitive personal information, as was made clear two years ago when sensitive personal information ended up on Misplaced Pages Review. There are comments on some technical work done in this area over at Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee Having got the truly confidential into a safer place, the list can carry the other traffic (voting calls, availability etc) without having the burden that the need to preserve everything as confidential carries.

What changes will you advocate for arbitration policy relating to mailing list misuse, confidentiality, and disclosure?

• Firstly, require all outgoing Arbitrators to clear their email archives of any list traffic once unsubscribed from the lists (there are 3) because they no longer have a reason to possess it. One could request that ex-Arbs from past times do likewise if they have not already done so. No means of enforcing it of course, because all the emails go to private inboxes, but one can at least ask.
• Secondly, as said above, separate out the sensitive information. This may need some agreed definitions - existing legal definitions such as the UK data protection act start from the position that the information allows you to identify the person, the same criterion as used in the WMF Privacy statement. However, I would rather think that the community would want a definition starting with information that would identify the editor on Misplaced Pages, given the amount of traffic from editors who do not wish to be identified with the information they want to provide us with.
• Thirdly, make clear what you can expect to happen to your information. The current policy (WP:ARBPOL) says that everything is confidential and treated as 'appropriate'. However, at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration_Committee#Communications_and_privacy it tells editors that the committee might share your information with whoever it sees fit with or without informing you, and not to send it confidential information anyway, as confidentiality cannot be guaranteed. Not helpful
• Rather, any policy should make clear that for example, personally identifying data is covered by the WMF Privacy policy, and a breach of this policy involving any WMF system (eg checkuser tool or this new crm if it comes off) will result in immediate loss of access to any WMF system containing p.i.d. The community will probably want information which identifies you as an editor, and which the committee has decided to accept as part of a private hearing, to be kept confidential with similar protections. On the other hand, allegations that the committee decides should not be dealt with by private hearing should be deleted off the system, not kept forever to haunt an editor who is completely unaware that User:FromMars, with whom she was in a content dispute, wrote to Arbcom saying that she was secretly employed by the FromVenus organisation to edit with multiple sock accounts. This is a basic privacy principle (or should be) - if Arbcom has told the reporting user to go file an SPI and they don't, it should delete it's record within a few months, not keep unsubstantiated allegations hanging around like the proverbial fart in a phonebox.
• As to correspondence between committee members - assuming that confidential information about other people has been got into a safer environment, any mailing list may still contain confidential information about it's members included in conversation (birthdays, family details, phone number, new job or whatever). In fact, the safest thing might be to say the mailing list is only for that kind of stuff. Discussing cases should be in a separate location, arguing with each other or making the kind of statements that led to this in the first place should be onwiki or by personal email.
• At the same time, most of the discussion on cases and motions should not have an expectation of privacy at all. Even if not held onwiki (the genuine difficulty here is that everyone and their dog chimes in and swamps the discussion), there should be an expectation that it can be disclosed upon request.

In the (admittedly unlikely) event that both you and JClemens are re-elected, how will you go about working together?

We would just have to, in the sure and certain knowledge that we completely disagree on several things. The committee can work with differing opinions - although part of the scope of discussion on cases and motions is to find a format which will achieve majority support, it is perfectly clear that it makes its decisions by majority vote, not consensus. I think it would be a mistake to expect it to be like a government with a three line whip.

Suppose another situation occurred in which an arbitrator posted inappropriately to the list on a topic where the community arguably has a right to know. I refer to a post where disclosure would not violate the privacy of any editor and where the comments made are inconsistent with an arbitrator carrying out her or his duties. How would you handle this situation?

I'll be honest, right now I'd probably just shut up about it :) In the future, there should not be a reason to put that kind of post on a list (or on a wiki, which seems to be one solution being discussed as I mentioned above) where most of the traffic consists of or is discussing personal information that should be treated as confidential. If a person did so, and another member of the committee was disturbed by it, they should be free to raise it with the person by personal email or onwiki without anyone yelling 'Leak!' or simply to ask for disclosure (see note above about discussion on cases and motions) It's what is in the information that makes it confidential, not where it was posted.

Relating to your recent actions, I am much more disturbed by your misleading your colleagues when asked about the leak than I am about seeking the counsel of a friend. Voting for an arbitrator involves trusting in his or her judgment and whilst I accept that you would not have disclosed personal confidential information, I am concerned that you were unwilling to be fully open about your actions. Please explain to me why I should vote in support of you continuing to serve on ArbCom.

Indeed, while I have said that I was trying to protect my confidante (who had assured me he had not sent the text of anything to anyone - and who I still think was only trying to do what he thought was best), I would anticipate a lot of voters deciding that my judgement is so completely shot to shit that I'm not fit to be an Arb. All I can say is it was the same motivation that has led many to criticise me for being way too lenient and over emotional. There are people behind these usernames, and a lot of the time they are trying to do what they think is best, it just doesn't work out. Arbcom is not the government. It's not there to make policy, rule on content, or 'guide the project' (which is what I do believe is what JClemens wanted to see - an Arbcom that would guide the project on civility). It is just there as the last stage of dispute resolution, to sort out those wrangles that have spilled over into intractable bad behaviour, deal with the odd private matter (mostly alleged paedophiles and stalkers) and to manage parts of the tool permission process on behalf of the WMF. I think I've done that fairly, and fairly well, and would do it fairly well again. There's a balance in many cases between protecting the editing community, who just want a quiet environment and would often favour a 'block the lot of 'em' policy, and being fair to editors who are not always the mendacious, pov pushing trolls the other side (who are always incivil, lying edit warriors) make them out to be.

In the end, it's up to the voter's conscience, opinion, or whatever one chooses to call it. There are a number of good candidates who would do a good job. I'd say pick the ones who take the job seriously as a means of helping good editors to keep editing. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:40, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Elen, I'd like to thank you for your thoughtful and informative responses. I would like to ask one follow up, if I may. In response to my first question, you advocate closing down the present mailing list as it is unsuited to handling genuinely confidential information - which I think is an excellent idea, but it wasn't the intent of my question. So, suppose the truly confidential material is moved to a secure storage medium. I presume there would still need to be some off-wiki communication channel for arbitrators. How would you like policy to handle the issue of inappropriate use of that channel by arbitrators? EdChem (talk) 05:01, 1 December 2012 (UTC) PS: If you like, I'd be willing to copy and paste my questions and your answers over to your candidate questions page.

Ah right. I would expect at that point that it wouldn't matter so much what they posted, because the expectation would be that anything that isn't personally identifying (schedule, job or family details etc) could be referred to elsewhere or requested for disclosure. Misuse is a problem where someone cannnot be called to any account because of list confidentiality. If something said on the list can be referred to elewhere, it both removes the kind of issue that came up here, and might make members less likely to post things that they are not prepared to say openly.

I think it would be a good idea to transfer it over to the candidate question page, so please go ahead. Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:22, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

 Done EdChem (talk) 06:20, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

		The Original Barnstar
		"For bringing such preposterous behavior to light..." I just finished saying my piece on Jimmy Wales' user page and it occurred to me that I was right! Anonymity is only necessary on wiki to protect people physically or financially — it is not meant to provide carte blanche for threats and backstage bullying. In your next term, actively work to end the veil of secrecy around ArbCom deliberations. Carrite (talk) 16:57, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. If elected I will work for better protection for the information handled by Arbcom that can affect people in real life, and greater transparency in the decision making processes. Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:54, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi

* <- that's a really cheap barnstar.

Hi Elen.

I can only recall once that I've ever spoken to you directly, but I did want to drop by and say hi. Perhaps I don't have the best of reputations on wiki, but regardless of what others think I wanted to express my own personal thanks to you. I know that you've recently gone through some very trying times, and I truly admire the way you've handled it all. Regardless of the end results, I wanted to say it outright that I very much appreciate all you have given to our project. The time, the dedication, the thought, the insight, and in many ways the very heart of who you are as a person. I don't always "get it" when you use phrases that are germane to your own culture, but I see a kind and intelligent person behind your efforts. That means a lot to me.

It seems that the older I get, the more I'm reminded on a daily basis how precious our time is in this reality. I think it is so sad that so much time is expended in railing against other people; and often people we will never have the chance to meet in real life. I hope you'll forgive me this rant on your talk page, but it's something of a cathartic exercise for me. I truly admire your honesty, your integrity, and your kindness. You are a good person. You have a good heart. I wanted to tell you that. I wish I would have told others that when I had the chance. You're good people Elen of the Roads, and I'm a better person for having read the things you've said. All my best to you and all you hold dear. — Ched :  ?  09:01, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Ched, thank you so much for taking the time to write this. I have always found you to be a very thoughtful person (I don't go much on wiki reputations anyway), and I value your kind thoughts here. At the end of the day, I am convinced that the world goes round more smoothly if we try to understand each other and remember there are real people behind the typed words, even if we never get to know them. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:33, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

PMA?

Elen, would you mind taking a look at Special:Contributions/Wtshymanski? In your arguments for blocking PMA/JCS back in February, you included as one of the hints the use of semicolons in edit summaries. Having stumbled upon this move request, I personally don't have the slightest shadow of a doubt over who Wtshymanski (talk · contribs) is. --78.35.235.104 (talk) 12:00, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I believe Wtshymanski probably has a similar secondary educational background to PMA/JCS - his use of language suggests someone who has been taught formal grammar, syntax, punctuation etc. However, PMA majored in humanities, while Wtshymanski almost exclusively edits articles in the science/technology arena (the move request concerns a German chemist). Wikistalk shows only 14 article overlaps in over 100,000 edits between them. PMA might well have advanced the same arguments about the use of ss rather than the German character, but I can't imagine PMA editing articles on halogen reflector lamps variable voltage electrical switches or types of amplification circuitry. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:17, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

There are hundreds of thousands of registered editors and I must be the same person as this other person because I've used semicolons in an edit summary? And because I like the English alphabet to be used in English language text? Get PMA to say he's not me - that's as believable as me saying I'm not PMA. --Wtshymanski (talk) 14:39, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Like I said on your talkpage, while the IP editor asked the question in good faith, I think the answer is that there's no chance you're PMA. I just thought you should be aware of the suggestion. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:21, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Although I have been critical of Wtshymanski, (as have many others, I have never seen even the slightest hint of anything underhanded or dishonest in any of his actions, and a deceptive practice like sockpuppetry flies in the face of everything I have observed about his behavior. If they are smart (and Wtshymanski certainly is), sockmasters avoid calling attention to themselves with incivility. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:43, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Ahh, but if they are smarter than you, they'd delibrately be rude so as to relieve suspicion that they are a sockmaster. After all, we're willing to posit individuals who spend every waking or amphetamine-supported moment on Misplaced Pages obsessively carrying out their incredibly subtle schemes. Thank Jimbo we've got people willing to bring their own Maglites and thermoses to the mall to expose these monsters. --Wtshymanski (talk) 16:23, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

But if they're really smarter, they'll know that we would know that appearing to be deliberately rude as ruse is obviously a ruse, so they would be not rude cause we'd expect a smart sock to be rude. But it really doesn't matter cause there's iocaine powder in both goblets NE Ent 16:43, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

That only works if we're as smart as the hidden sockmaster, but I've postulated that HS is much smarter than we are, so we are not able to discern his (or her) subtle ploy as in fact a ploy at all. --Wtshymanski (talk) 17:45, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but if they're smarter than themselves, then... wait. Um. Well, now I'm hopelessly confused. But that's what you wanted all along, isn't it, Mr. Hidden Sockmaster! (I concede that NEE's comment is better than mine, because it's written in the fine print somewhere that a Princess Bride reference automatically trumps a South Park reference.) --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:03, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

By "we" I should have clearly said "all of the in-play editors who aren't aliases of HS". This might be a very small number, of course...for all I know, you're *all* tentacles of some malevolent polymath. --Wtshymanski (talk) 19:39, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Hey, I use semi-colons in edit summaries sometimes, too! And no, Im not ... ;P Pesky (talk) 23:07, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. All it shows is that you went to a school where they taught punctuation. Or at least, that's what the Hidden Sockmaster would have us all believe. Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:17, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

User:Wtshymanski

You might like to be aware: that Wtshymanski does not approve of IP editors being able to edit Misplaced Pages. He also has a looong history of seldom crediting any other editor of acting in good faith and never an IP editor.

"Most editors are here to hurt the encyclopedia, not to help it."

- Wtshymanski on his own talk page.

You may also care to read this. A second RfU is apparently in draft as I type. 86.145.244.183 (talk) 14:09, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

None of which makes him a sock of PMAnderson, which was the question asked. Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:15, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Maybe we shoud be checking to see if 86.145.244.183 is another tendril of the PMA conspiracy? All I know for sure is that there's me and all those other guys...who might be me typing in my sleep. --Wtshymanski (talk) 14:26, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Er no! The first point that I saw raised was you pointing out that an IP editor may have edited in good faith (here). That makes my point apposite. I had responded on Wtshymanski's talk page, but added it here because I figured (correctly) that the comment would be deleted quickly because Wtshymanski does not like his talk page showing what a tendentious editor he really is. 86.145.244.183 (talk) 16:29, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Months later: how long does something like this have to hang around? Every few weeks the spinner lands on my name and I get threatened with some kind of "partly constructed RFC/U" gobbletygook. I'm baffled as to what triggered this latest go around. Since you've been helpful in the past, I'm appealing to you to explain to me what's going on. I don't understand any of these people. --Wtshymanski (talk) 14:03, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Your inability to "understand any of these people" might be related to your steadfast refusal to have a substantive conversation about your behavior. I'm just saying.

As has been explained to you before, such pages are allowed We even have a template for marking them.

That being said, this one seems to have stalled. Wtshymanski, would you like me to ask DieSwartzPunkt to either move ahead with it or delete it? --Guy Macon (talk) 16:44, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 19:42, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

User:Common Sense MMA (MMA SPA)

Please review the very short history this user has had at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/UFC 157 and determine if Administrative intervention is appropriate. I have tried to explain to the user the policies, yet they do not wish to debate in Misplaced Pages's rules. Hasteur (talk) 19:51, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Hasteur has claimed in his nomination that the first time in world history that an openly gay person and a woman will compete for a championship in mixed-martial arts in a globally televised event put on by the world's largest MMA league and which is already being covered in mainstream newspapers such as USA Today and the Detroit Free Press is neither notable nor verifiable. That claim is not just false, but frankly insulting. Anyone with a computer can verify this information and to suggest that the first ever openly gay person and also first ever woman, who is an olympian to boot, competing for a world title on an event televised around the world is not historic is so bizarre that it does not deserve to be responded to with anything that gives it any ounce of legitimatcy, because objectively Hasteur either did not research the subject, is flat out lying, or is being both sexist and homophobic. THAT is the kind of behavior that any freedom loving person would find unacceptable! One need to be a femnist or gay rights advocate to be insulted by this level of ignorance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Common Sense MMA (talk • contribs) 20:18, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Oh look, it's a sock. What a surprise. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:04, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

You might also want to look at 10.0.0.x (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and the IP 173.76.160.22 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Mtking 08:12, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Dennis Brown got the named account. I've not seen anyone socking on a Verizon range before - which is not of course to say that it isn't BStudent0 or similar at his auntie's house. I've given the IP 48 hrs off for harassment - let me know if he reappears. Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:03, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Miscellany for deletion

Mmm... yeah. I may have got a little carried away, but basically I meant what I said. I expect it's time to move db's RFA to her userspace, or what do you think? Incidentally, you might like to check out this cool screenshot of the main page on a certain date a couple of centuries ago. Ah, fame. Bishonen | talk 00:23, 9 December 2012 (UTC).

Bloody thing wouldn't be so bad if it was obviously entirely made up, as it is it's a BLP violation (says he went out with some woman off the tv - while this may well be an 'in your dreams' scenario, it's also a BLP violation). Come on, he's had this thing deleted twice before. 'He's fixing it up' really isn't going to fly - both he and you should have realised that posting it as it was (with the addition of tv lady) is just going to get it deleted again. If he wants to 'fix it up' he can do it elsewhere. As for db...has anyone had the temerity to complain? And lived? --Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:28, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

talkback

I did reply this morning (USA - Eastern time). Again - sorry for being such a grump. I know you've been through a lot, and I shouldn't have added to it. — Ched :  ?  01:55, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

K... ttyl — Ched :  ?  01:31, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

StillNo time to withdraw

I am surprised you are standing again for arbcom after your recent record. I refer to the following instances, which are just those I know about and come to mind:

1. Your ill judged reference to "Obsessive compulsive anal retentive on the autism spectrum"
2. Your blocking of an account you were involved in an arbcom case with as a party
3. Your blocking of an editor for posting a cartoon
4. Your blocking of an editor who had behaved after a warning form another administrator
5. Your saying an editor "could edit if he changed his ISP"
6. Your lack of understanding of technical issues, yet running many many checkusers
7. Your blocks of a user for editing on another Wiki, together with unfounded accusations of socking.

There have been worse abuses by other arbitrators, but I think that is enough to suggest that you should not be standing.

I urge you to withdraw.

Rich Farmbrough, 20:01, 11 December 2012 (UTC).

Isn't the community the best judge of these things? Let's see what happened.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:09, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Quite. And if Elen were to withdraw it would simply leave one more position available to the crazies, which is perhaps Rich Farmbrough's intention. Malleus Fatuorum 20:12, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Crazies - on Arbcom? Some mistake, surely. Rich Farmbrough, 20:15, 11 December 2012 (UTC).

I don't think so. There are quite a few of them, and we surely don't need any more. Malleus Fatuorum 20:17, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Incompetence and defensiveness may be worse than craziness. Rich Farmbrough, 20:37, 11 December 2012 (UTC).

No Elen would be quite within her rights to withdraw. Rich Farmbrough, 20:15, 11 December 2012 (UTC).

Which is to miss Wehwalt's point big time. Malleus Fatuorum 20:17, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Some people are more talented at missing the point than others. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:24, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Indeed they are. Malleus Fatuorum 20:33, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Ah the elections are done? Shame. Rich Farmbrough, 20:35, 11 December 2012 (UTC).

Rich, please stop. This is beneath you. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:10, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I am not active on WP these days and was under the impression the elections were still running (even looked for the place to vote). I would have removed/re-written the section if not for the comments from others. Rich Farmbrough, 21:15, 11 December 2012 (UTC).

You would have been better advised not to make your comments in the first place. Malleus Fatuorum 22:11, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Apologies and qualified support/sympathy for recent actions

For the above, Elen I was under the impression that there was still a little time left to run on the elections. I would still urge you to stand down if elected.

Having just seen the tip of the iceberg of the recent imbroglio, I can see you were in a cleft stick, and it appears that your actions were not completely at odds with good whistle-blowing ethics. Having been on the receiving end of the apparatchiks actions, as you know, I can sympathise with what you have been going through. I have been concerned with the abuse of the email list for some time, particularly as the committee has failed in it's legal and ethical obligations regarding this data, and the historical leaked emails show the committee in a bad light, regarding anyone with a good grasp of English as "pompous" for example.

Chin up and get editing. Rich Farmbrough, 21:12, 11 December 2012 (UTC).

What a very strange exchange above. I really don't know how to respond to it other than to deny the rumours about myself and Helpful Pixie Bot and insist that we were just good friends.

I'm sorry you didn't get the chance to vote me out. If elected (which I'm not at all sure is likely, only time will tell) I would feel honour bound to take my seat on the assumption that the community at the very least viewed me as the least worst option :)

I share your concerns about data protection (if Arbcom were a UK organisation subject to our data protection legislation, it would have been fined out of existence by now and all the Arbs would be in jail) but am hopeful that the proposed crm will provide a superior technical solution which limits the prospect of misuse of personal data. I'm also hopeful that some form of FOI policy can be agreed on, so discussions not featuring personal data can be at the very least released on demand after the case or whatever is over. Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:51, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I understand that the Wikimedia foundation once seriously considered moving the servers to Britain, but dropped the idea when they realised that they would have to purge a huge amount of content to comply with British law. My information is that copyright law was the main issue, but I wouldn't be surprised if data protection issues were involved too. JamesBWatson (talk) 09:03, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Interestingly I filed a request for information that followed the DPA protocol with all then sitting arbitrators, and the committee, some months ago. It was ignored totally including by those members who are based in the UK. There are implications here because the transfer of personal information into and out of the EU is subject to additional restrictions relating to handling those data with the appropriate safeguards, corresponding more or less to the DPA, which is something that has been totally failed in so far.

The committee's motto should be "Nothing so important it can't be ignored, nothing so trivial we can't ban someone."

Rich Farmbrough, 21:11, 13 December 2012 (UTC).

Richard, could you pursue such complaints at the ArbCom pages? Elen has been subjected to a lot, and deserves a bit of rest. You are no doubt right to be upset, because nobody can be just all the time. Even Jesus couldn't keep all his disciples happy. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:21, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm having a conversation here, it is useful to see that we are of the same opinion about this, as many other things. Rich Farmbrough, 22:43, 13 December 2012 (UTC).

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 20:51, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Precious

civility
Thank you for your answers to my questions about our respect for editors as living persons, for your illustrations of "fishy" with "grace under fire", for a flavoured tea, - repeating: you are an awesome Wikipedian (22 November 2009)!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:36, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Muffins

English muffins

Hello. I wouldn't normally ask a personal-experience-type question of another editor, but I was so excited by your edit that I have cast caution aside: are you actually British or British-resident or British-visiting (OtherNationalitiesAndLocalitiesMayApplyNoConclusionIsHereinImpliedYourMileageMayVaryAlwaysReadTheInstructions), and have personally consumed muffins in their BrE non-cakey variety and in the AmE "English muffin" species? If so I think I might faint with pure joy. :) That article is depressing me far beyond what should be possible in writing about small breadlike objects... Best wishes DBaK (talk) 09:22, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I am indeed an Englishwoman, and have eaten and made Lancashire oven-bottom muffins (which are believed at least in Lancashire to be the originals), I have frequently eaten the things sold in supermarkets as muffins (which have a dusting of cornmeal on the outside) and more occasionally American "English muffins" (which must be made with a lot of yeast as they have a texture a bit like ciabatta) and I have both eaten and baked the things with choc chips, blueberries etc that you bake in twists of paper in muffin pans. I also have sources, as I have an interest in historical recipes.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:14, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

French fries

We Americans are weird that way -- we eat "French" fries and "French" toast that an exchange student from France years ago assured us were not French. And we call our language "English" every tho it's obviously not the same thing you folks use over there. (Took a break in the Everglades this past weekend and some Brit sounding folks wanted to come back at night with torches! Seem ungrateful to want to bring fire into our little park.) NE Ent 22:04, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Presumably you are aware that French fires are so called because the potatoes are "Frenched" - cut into thin strips, before being fried. In English English, of course "being Frenched" has a totally different osculatory meaning. Rich Farmbrough, 21:29, 13 December 2012 (UTC).

French toast

French fries are Belgian :) The french do make something called pain perdu which is supposed to be the original of 'french toast', but I don't get the impression it's much like American french toast. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:57, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Nothing like our "eggy bread" really, which isn't at all sweet. That article on French toast is disgrace; wouldn't it be nice to have more than just a few decent articles on food and drink? I keep dipping in and out of dandelion and burdock, a drink I still enjoy, but always end up being drawn towards a brewery instead. No need for any speculation on why that might be. Malleus Fatuorum 23:10, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I often think that Misplaced Pages would be as well served by the removal of much of its material as it would by the addition of more, and in that spirit I've made some changes to that French toast article. I would defy anyone to make a credible case that my version isn't a substantial improvement on the original. Malleus Fatuorum 00:18, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

A definite improvement I would say. Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:01, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Improved? Obviously. Complete without the vanilla??? I don't think so. NE Ent 01:11, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Difficulty with "American" food is once you get beyond Restaurant chains you end up with lots of regional variation; Southern "French Toast" is likely to be much sweeter than that in the North. NE Ent 01:11, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Difficulty is all the uncited "In Pakistan, French toast is called Scratch my Arse, and is made only with the milk of virgin cows". You get my my drift I'm sure. Last time I looked Misplaced Pages wasn't a cookery book. Malleus Fatuorum 01:19, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

In Sweden, a "poor knight" (Fattiga_riddare) is fried bread first soaked in milk, and a "knight" is fried bread first soaked in milk and egg---according to Smalanders. In Ukraine, bread is soaked in milk on one side, and then fried. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 10:30, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Reliable sources for food

(talk page stalker)I have weird feelings about most of our food articles. On the one hand, I use WP all the time as a reader when I want to learn more about dishes, particularly those from regions away from myself. The problem is, most of the time I look at one, the editor in me wants to delete at least half of the article, since it's unsourced. But what sources should we use for food? Would citing a recipe book work? But that would only give one idiosyncratic version of the dish. And while I don't doubt that these foods exist, are they all notable? I've never heard of an article on a dish being taken to AfD...so do they have default notability? And how do we deal with the problem that Malleus points out, wherein much of the article consists of alleged local variations on trans-ethnic/national dishes? WP:V says we should remove all of that info...but somehow it just pains me to do so. I find that often all I can do is to glance at the article as quickly as possible to get the info I need, then rapidly close it so that my fingers don't start reaching for the "edit" button. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:53, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

The sources we use for food articles should be as reliable as those we use for any other articles. Whether individual recipe books would qualify as reliable sources depends on for what and who wrote them. The overwhelming problem with food articles is the "my granny always used clarified butter, but many nowadays recommend ghee, known in Pakistan as ghoo" rubbish. There's probably a Wiki recipe book project somewhere, but this isn't it. Malleus Fatuorum 04:37, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Try b:Cookbook. Not sure how much is going on with it these days, but in the early days of Wikibooks it was one of the largest projects. --SB_Johnny | ✌ 12:33, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Ah, it's not that bad... BLT, Stargazy pie, Squab pie, Pasty and Clotted Cream all turned out alright ;) Worm(talk) 12:36, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree that your average coffee table cookbook is no use as a source. Silver Spoon is invaluable when confronted with an animal or vegetable you have never tackled before, but Misplaced Pages is not a cookbook. There are however authors with an interest in the history, geography, enthnography or what have you of cooking, whose works can form the equivalent of academic sources for dishes and cooking, so it's not impossible.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:34, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Aren't most of the food articles we have here because of some cultural significance? Like Worm's example Stargazy pie (gag...). I would think a reputable and well known cookbook would be fine for providing some facts such as ingredients, just not enough to establish the notability, which would require sources more independent from the subject matter. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:51, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

The Guardian newspaper features a weekly column by Felicity Cloake - how to make the perfect....whatever . The one thing it shows is that no two cooks ever agree, meaning that no recipe book can be considered a definitive source. The one time it could is if a famous restaurant or chef publishes their signature recipe - like the notorious River Cafe chocolate cake that no-one can make, or Escoffier's original Peach Melba. Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:02, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Agreed there is no definitive recipe for....anything. But what if I provided three different but similar recipes and all were sourced back to reputable sources, like the Guardian, Betty Crocker and Rachel Ray's cookbooks? Wouldn't this be encyclopedic as showing the varieties that are still considered the same dish? One small paragraph might cover all three varieties, listing only the differences? Seems to be the most neutral way to present the information, obviously depending on the article. Just a thought, I'm better at eating the food than writing about it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:12, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

That would be Original Research. You could quote Felicity Cloake or Elizabeth David comparing recipes, but you can't do it yourself. Quite apart from queries like who died and made Betty Crocker a reliable source for anything to do with baked goods :) Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:18, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Betty Crocker Cookbook I think we did ;-) And I wouldn't compare them, just document that multiple recipes exist. But again, just curious, not proclaiming policy. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:44, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Backfired joke. In the UK, the name Betty Crocker is synonymous with packet 'just add water' cake mixes and ready made frosting that seems to contain the entire output of a chemistry lab. If you want the absolute rock solid reliable source for baking, it's the little book available from BeRo flour when you send in a label and a few bob. Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:58, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Not necessarily -- "But when incorporating research into an article, it is important that editors provide context for this point of view, by indicating how prevalent the position is, and whether it is held by a majority or minority." So if we say the majority of sources do not include vanilla in French Toast, but a notable minority, including Joy of Cooking do we're just following policy. And isn't a difference a simple calculation? NE Ent 01:12, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

It would be if there were a finite number of cookbooks. But their numbers are as the stars in heaven, or the sand on the seashore, for lo, everyone's a chef these days. Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:21, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) That assumes you have found all the sources, so that might be OR. If you said "Recipes vary, where some such as Betty Crocker Cookbook uses beef(), The Guardian recommends only using pork()" then you aren't giving an opinion except that they vary, and you have backed it up with sources. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:23, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Muffins and Crumpets

Qwyrxian, I could have written what you wrote, almost down to the last letter. I've had several food articles on my watchlist for ages, and I admit I'm a lot more liberal about letting questionable changes stand than I am with articles on any other topic. When 90% of an article is unsourced to begin with, it's really hard to demand sources for new additions unless they're wildly implausible or off-topic. And there are so many regional variations—even among standard restaurant fare, let alone dishes one would prepare at home—that it's sometimes very hard to judge: what may seem sky-is-blue, duh! obvious to me may be completely unheard of a mere 500 miles away, and vice versa, never mind on a different continent. There's a dearth of online sources that I'd consider reliable, so it's frustrating. (Btw, this thread reminds me: could anyone here explain the precise difference between a muffin and a crumpet? Our articles don't make it clear, and I've read endlessly confusing things off-wiki.) Rivertorch (talk) 07:57, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Please do not use the C-word in a discussion of muffins. That way lies death and madness. I have spoken. :) Best wishes DBaK (talk) 08:09, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Elen, thank you very much for the reply. (Sorry I've been unable to respond quickly.) I would be very happy to see you show up at the article with some sources. At the moment, as Malleus and other wise people say above, the trouble is that the debate is all very much of the "I have seen and eaten these so they exist/No, I have not seen and eaten these, so they do not exist/or the claimed Am/Br difference does not exist" type. It's very depressing and I am guilty of it as much as anyone - except that I do find it difficult to know what else to do when it is just a game of assertion and counter-assertion and I do feel it necessary to at least make the effort to contradict, based on what I have personally OR-eaten! Of course I should not be doing this but it's a bit like watching people who only know Baroque music claim that rap does not and cannot exist, or vice versa. If you have heard both then it's hard to see people claim that one does not exist, or that there is no difference! We will never really move it on without some decent sources but I quail at the thought of what these might be; and I guess I have to accept the risk that I won't like them - that is, what if someone produces a credible-but-wrong US source which clearly states "The product sold in the US as 'English muffin' is exactly the same as the product sold in England as an 'Unamerican non-cakoid muffin' or whateverthehell whateverthehell"? If that happens, I'm screwed aren't I (not in a good way) and there's then a battle on to find a better source that contradicts this. I have no doubt that my example is plausible, for all the reasons that people say above - food is such a personally and locally accented business that even the knowledgeable will produce what is little more than folklore. However, even references that were debatable would be better than none - they'd at least be a platform for further development and an improvement on the current shouting match. I'm probably wasting too much time on this so I feel guilty encouraging others but do please come and help kick it into shape a bit. And, as someone said, "This talk page is amazing, surely a Misplaced Pages classic." - it's probably worth reading for a laugh, given the modest admission charge. And yes, it is part of a broader pattern of much-loved, I-know-what-I-know subjects where there's a lot of information but few references and not much sign of, er, encyclopaediaism. (-ness. -dom. -igkeit.) Thanks and best wishes DBaK (talk) 08:07, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't know what part of England Elen is from, though from what she says above Lancashire seems likely. However, I have lived in England for over 60 years, starting in the Midlands and subsequently spending time in East Anglia, the South East, the South West, the North East, and the North West. Until I moved to the North West I had never known the word "muffin" to be used for anything remotely like what Elen calls "Lancashire oven-bottom muffins". In much of Yorkshire those things are called "bread cakes", and in most of the rest of England they are pretty well unknown, under any name. I hate to say it, but what I grew up knowing as "muffins" (and what in my experience were what the word usually meant in most of England before American "muffins" were introduced) were indistinguishable from what Americans call "English muffins". My mother in law, an American, is convinced that "English muffin" is one of those things like "French toast", "Brussels sprout" (which originated in England), and "cor anglais", and is a purely American invention, but she ain't right. Of course, my experience may not be typical, and I can't swear that I actually came across muffins in every one of the places where I have lived, but what Americans call "English muffins" do actually have a well-established history of being the "muffins" eaten in at least substantial parts of England.

Unfortunately, seeing this discussion led me to look at the article Muffin. I was horrified. However, I will resist the temptation to spend my time trying to do anything about it. I long ago learned that it is a futile waste of time trying to do anything with most of these food articles. Whatever improvements one makes, it is not long before someone whose grandmother made the definitive version comes back and messes it up again. JamesBWatson (talk) 09:36, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

James: I think this might be the last time I say this, or perhaps not, but I absolutely promise you, on my honour as that if you go to Sainsbury's round the corner here in London EC1 and buy a pack of ordinary plain muffins and then go to the supermarket in Manhattan, Kansas, and do the same with English muffins, you will have two absolutely distinct products. I promise you. Really. I have done it. The texture is markedly different. I know I am just doing the same thing again that I have decried, the assertion and counter-assertion, but I am stuck until we get some credible references into the article. I have never seen the AmE English muffin on sale here and would be very interested to see this. But I really should stop this now - I think it is close to affecting my mental health, or perhaps more than close. In passing I note that I missed an opportunity for a gag somewhere in "counter-assertion" (it would have been a bit half-baked, mind you) and also that "Proposal to split" in the English muffin talk page is possibly the best section header I have ever seen, anywhere - whether it was deliberate or not. With best wishes to all, DBaK (talk) 10:53, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

This thread has gone stale. Time to stick a fork in it. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:57, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

You've got mail!

Hello, Elen of the Roads. Please check your email; you've got mail!
Message added 09:55, 12 December 2012 (UTC). It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

Mtking 09:55, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

MMA Event Notability

You are invited to join the discussion at WT:MMA#MMA_Event_Notability. Kevlar (talk) 18:46, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm reading it thanks. Looks like a good discussion going on. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:25, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks

Hi, thank you for letting me know about the botched edit. When I hit "save page", I bet there were a few others working on their own and thus it wiped out theirs. I decided to let my outdated comment go and latch onto the current discussion. Thanks again. (DefGrappler (talk) 03:23, 14 December 2012 (UTC))

PD socking

Elen, over a year ago you courtesy blanked and protected the pages of PD, and deleted the sockpuppet categories. This was done with the understanding that he would stop all socking. See e.g. this version of your user talk page, where you promised that " The person behind all the accounts has agreed to stop entirely all attempts to edit Misplaced Pages - if he doesn't I'll put the main pages back myself, with added vim." He has since socked quite a few times, the latest one apparently being User talk:Hestiaea. Could you please unblank / undelete all his pages and the sock cats, so that the inevitable future unban discussions get the full picture instead of the courtesy blanked one? Thanks! Fram (talk) 11:01, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

I was alerted to Hestiae as you posted this. I'm considering whether to restore the deleted pages immediately or, as you say, when there is an unban request, but if anyone at SPI need's 'em now, they can have them. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:39, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Considering that even today he was socking (User:86.169.241.160), I have undeleted and unblanked all relevant pages and recreated the sock cats. Feel free to "add vim" wherever you see fit. Fram (talk) 16:01, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Ombudsman commission

Hi, I contact you as you took part in the discussion on Penyulap's talk page concerning the Ombudsman committee matter. I've started some proposals and discussion on meta about how best to reform the OC to fix the issues it currently has and I would be very grateful if you could drop by and voice your opinion at m:Ombudsman commission/reform proposals. Snowolf 12:19, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Special Barnstar
	Dear Elen, I just want to say Thank you for being there to help people and being one of the best Arb's ever! Your Positive dedication and Priceless contributions are a big part of what makes Misplaced Pages more enjoyable and easy to use for all ~ For now, all I can say is "Keep It Up" :-) TheGeneralUser (talk) 19:17, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

blushes --Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:49, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Support the barnstar, all of it. Thank you, Elen for the blushing colour! I could have used it twice, and avoided the third ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:08, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Category Freemasons Proposed Deletions

Hi, as you were a contributor to a previous DRV on the Freemasons category there is another deletion discussion on this. JASpencer (talk) 16:55, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry to see...

Sorry that you're not there, Elen, as I certainly voted for you. You have always talked a lot of sense. Who will keep the "big boys" in check now, I wonder? But enjoy your break from all the grief. Regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:59, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

• Sad for us, happy for you, Elen. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:17, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I might even get to y'know...edit some articles :) Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:53, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedians also recommend biscuits with tea.

Hasteur (talk) has given you a cup of tea. Tea promotes WikiLove and hopefully this has made your day ever so slightly better.

Spread the WikiLove by giving someone else a tea, especially if it is someone you have had disagreements with in the past or someone putting up with some stick at this time. Enjoy!

Spread the lovely, warm, refreshing goodness of tea by adding {{subst:wikitea}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Most welcome, thank you :) Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:53, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

I try as much as possible to avoid the underside of Wiki (drama boards and such), but I did appreciate your willingness to stand up for what you thought was right regarding the whole mailing list issue. You had my vote...guess it wasn't enough, though. Intothatdarkness 21:24, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

I echo the sentiments of the above. Still, bravely done under trying circumstances.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:30, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Hugs to you; I'd give you another Pony, but for most people, one is enough! Montanabw 21:40, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Goodness

	Barnstar of phronesis
	Thanking your for your wisdom, decisiveness, and kindness. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:34, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

I am truly honoured. Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:58, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't care

You know, you could've just not run instead of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory with the arbcom-l screwup? Regardless, my respect for the hard work, insight and good judgement you've added to the committee the past couple years remains unchanged. NE Ent 20:41, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Oh I don't know. I think it's started some interesting threads. Be interesting to see what comes from it. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:00, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Re: Congratulations

I should be doing the congratulations, depending on how you look at it :) It has been a pleasure serving with you; hopefully we'll see Each other on wiki in less fraught circumstances. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 21:05, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you for your two years of service as an arbitrator, not to mention all your other service, and your various forms of future service. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:35, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Regardless of what may have happened since November, you dedicated two years to the most thankless and shitty job there is for Misplaced Pages's sake. That deserves sincere thanks and accolades. — Coren  22:11, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for your good work on ArbCom. Losing elections sucks, but you can take solace that you received the 4th most "For" votes of that big slate. Good luck with your future endeavors on WP now that you're free at last... Carrite (talk) 21:33, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to thank you too Elen. I hope you can be free now, and dedicate yourself to other endeavours :) — ΛΧΣ 21:34, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry to see you weren't reelected. I respect your great ability to cut through to the heart of things. Frankly, I feel the chaos and attacks that that developed in regards to both your and Jclemens actions and which may have influenced this election to be a disappointing sign in Misplaced Pages's progress or lack of it. Thank you for all of your hard work and best wishes.(olive (talk) 23:10, 18 December 2012 (UTC))

• It's no secret that I supported you, and will continue to do so in any way I can. Since you finally have an opportunity to work in a drama free environment, consider visiting (or joining us) at Wikiproject Editor Retention. It is a very laid back group that just tries to find non-contentious ways to make the place a little better. It's nice to just help people or bounce around ideas with optimistic people every now and then. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 03:28, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
• My support was evident, and it's too bad you lost. Well, try again next year. I guess the ArbCom mailing list ordeal made you have less support. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 22:17, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

• You had a good run. I'm happy you didn't resign and withdraw your application for these elections though, even though there were people wanting you to. The funny thing about being an arb though, is that the majority of WP doesn't know the comittee exists, except for the minority, who are usually those who participate in the WP namespace a bunch. For the rest of them, they just want Misplaced Pages to keep functioning. And I think during your time as Arb, you've done a great job at that. Best and maybe we can work on some getting some pages up to FA status in the future? --Kangaroopowah 23:59, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks indeed. Appropriate to see so many people lining up to entice you towards new projects. – SJ + 02:42, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Please accept this

		Home-Made Barnstar
		You showed honour and integrity in how you dealt with the whole "civility" shitburst. Just as my confidence in Arbcom reached an all-time low, you were there to shore it up. I am sorry you are leaving the thought police but perhaps you are better off out of it. Best wishes, and thanks for being you. John (talk) 21:50, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks

	Thanks
	Thanks for all your hard work, Shearonink (talk) 23:39, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Been expecting something like this

- although it's an odd one to pick, as there's a massive discussion between myself and Rich that follows the link, and it's clear it's not a personal attack, even though I'll hold my hands up and say for the umpteenth time it was thoughtlessly offensive to people with OCD.

Ex Arbs are normally allowed to retain the checkuser bit - I'm waiting for her to start demanding that be removed as well, plus I expect my admin tools, and a siteban as a final outcome :) Ah, happy days. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:54, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Be the Other Duck. Be like Paul Atreides (movie version) -- "I will bend like a reed in the wind". NE Ent 14:05, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Elen, it (what you said) is clearly not a personal attack to you (I.e. in your view), because you wrote it (and know what you meant to convey). As a (probably) non-ASD person who knows you reasonably well I know you didn't mean ill by it. But to an outside observer it can be interpreted in no other way, unless as a serious face-value comment which would be bad for other reasons.

But Sandy is not attacking you, despite the fact that you understandably may feel attacked. She is saying, "this is a thing Arbs should not do, yet one did and nothing was done - can we handle this type of thing better? why was nothing done? should there be a policy on this?" and so forth.

Had she said "a random arbitrator said..." it might have felt less personal. I really doubt that she is "after your checkuser bit" - even though I have had issues with some of the cases you have checkusered, I think that it is a role you perform well and are well suited to, and I don't hear anyone saying to the contrary. Rich Farmbrough, 16:32, 19 December 2012 (UTC).

Rich, I meant - it wasn't intended as a personal attack on you. SandyGeorgia has been clear all along in her personal feelings about me, hence I said I was expecting something like this. She has already been among those asking for removal of the Checkuser bit. I was under no illusion that this was going to go away after the election.

I understood what you said, I've added a parenthetical or three to my previous posting to clarify it. I am though, confused by your second point. If she has already asked for your CU bit to be removed, I don't see how you are "waiting for her to demand". As to things "going away" I have been pursued by more or less the same handful of people for over two years now, with occasional help from outsiders, either well meaning, like yourself, or with a long running dispute over something they WP:OWN. Such things never truly go away once they have gone past a certain point. There is no way I can "legally" edit on Misplaced Pages at the moment, I have even broken Arbcom restrictions writing this. But <meh> I am not going to abandon those who need me, even if I am substantively retired from en: - and effectively have been for many months. I expect that regardless of any such outcome you will continue to do your best to contribute to the project, and I would wholeheartedly recommend the Editor retention programme Dennis mentions, as a real key initiative, potentially, which requires more application of brainpower and experience than it is getting at the moment. Rich Farmbrough, 17:26, 19 December 2012 (UTC).

Based on support votes alone, it looks as if Elen would have come in 4th. Negative voting is a grossly unfair system. Systems that effectively give some users (who use negative votes) many times the number of votes that others (who use only positive votes) get, are generally considered unconstitutional. LittleBen (talk) 18:01, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, Elen, ya shoulda been elected, but now that I've gotten myself on Sandy's Shit List too, I guess at least I'm in good company! Montanabw 18:58, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

I'd guess that likely puts us in a majority here on wiki. — Ched :  ?  21:12, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Unconstitutional? Strange word to use, perhaps you mean unfair. If so then you should bear in mind that "not using negative votes" is a choice, just as is "only voting for the same number as there are vacancies". All eligible voters have the same votes available, so, as far as that goes, I see no unfairness. And while "controversial figures" are the lifeblood of the community, there is good reason not to appoint them to certain posts where the decisions require the confidence of the community. If, however, you wish to change the voting system I suggest you start an RFC for 2013 now. Doubtless a good case could be made for some form of improvement. Rich Farmbrough, 19:39, 19 December 2012 (UTC).

I apologise to all for this bit of a grizzle. Rich and others are right, there are more constructive things to be going at :)Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:02, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

You are more gracious than I would be, Elen. But then, maybe you are tasting the sweetness of freedom from Arbcom, where once again someone is trying to ban Malleus... Montanabw 22:53, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

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Talk page discussions

I'd like to restore Penyulap's talk page access so they can participate in the active discussion there about the ombudsman commission, currently a game of telephone. May I take it from your earlier comments there you'd be fine with that? Regards, – SJ + 02:45, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Why is the discussion not taking place on Meta? That is, after all, where the Ombudsman commission is headquartered. With SUL, the account is already "created" there. In fact, I'll go further. Why is the Ombudsman commission looking to discuss the use of privacy-related tools in a public forum? Risker (talk) 04:01, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

As to your second question, Penyulap has admirably posted the request openly, and equally admirably requested an open response. Rich Farmbrough, 13:52, 20 December 2012 (UTC).

It actually is: m:Ombudsman commission/reform proposals --Rschen7754 04:14, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

User:Penyulap has an account with the same name on Meta, which has been active there and is not blocked. They are already participating in a discussion about the Ombudsman commission at meta:Talk:Ombudsman commission#Inconsistent with other wikipedia policy. EdJohnston (talk) 04:41, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi SJ. As others have said, Penyulap can take part in that discussion as they are not blocked on meta, and it (not their talkpage) is where the discussion needs to take place to have any impact (I doubt if even FloNight has Peny's talkpage on her watchlist). Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:38, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

sorry Rich, I do this rarely, but I'm getting sick of your continuous barracking on behalf of Penyulap

FloNight did, I believe, respond on Penyulaps's talk page, that, however, is an irrelevance wrapped in misdirection within in a red herring. The talk page access,was last blocked by Courcelles, the checkuser that Pen had complained about, afterhe had made the complaint. As such the talk page block should not be allowed to stand. Were the talk page block clearly justified - say Pen had persistently posted frivolous unblock requests, then at the very least another admin should have reblocked - and at the very least courcelles, if not pre-empted should have unblocked. As far as I can see the response is: Courcelles does not respond, merely deleting or archiving any posts to his talk page The Arbitration committee, who I emailed over this matter have failed to respond (and it took Elen to actually forward the email, the clerks had ignored it) to my email, even to say they are doing nothing. (Again I asked for a response even if it was "we are not acting", and Elen urged them to respond.) Committee members seem to "circle the wagons" to support Courcelles. Elen refuses to say whether she felt "trolled" on Penyulap's talk page or not. Clearly this is difficult for her, because she was dishing out far worse than she was receiving, so saying yes makes her look bad, and promotes the question "Why did she not simply walk away?" , whereas saying no, to some extent lands Courcelles in it. To me the biggest mystery is why Courcelles did not simply say, as he can even now "My bad" and self revert. No-one wishes to make a bigger thing of this than it is, which is why I tried to get ArbCom to explain to Courcelles what he seems to have trouble seeing (and when I met him he seemed very intelligent and generous hearted fellow, making it all the stranger). Let me make it clear, the above simply covers the abusive block that followed the checkuser complaint, not the checkuser action in itself, and the block that followed that, which are far more amenable to explanation as mistake. I would urge any uninvolved admin to restore Penyulap's talk page access. If Elen feels she was trolled she is quite capable of either removing the talk page from her watchlist like a grown-up. Rich Farmbrough, 13:52, 20 December 2012 (UTC).

• Follow up for SJ - I don't personally have a problem what you do with Peny's talkpage, but I'm not the one who removed access. Penyulap is very difficult to understand sometimes. I think this does come across to some people as trolling. You can see the whole conversation - at the start I did think Peny was being deliberately obtuse about creating other accounts because of the way he said it. It was only as the conversation went on that it occurred to me that maybe we were looking at a 'feature' of the mediawiki interface, and Peny wasn't being deliberately obtuse at all, just upset.Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:43, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

  Thank you for the followup. I have restored his talkpage access. I have the same impression of his method of communicating.

  To the other comments above: yes, the thread about how to fix the Ombudsman Commission belongs on Meta. And others who do not frequent meta are having a discussion on his talkpage that relates to en:wp, which is normal. Meta is not meant as a substitute for homewiki talkpage access (even if sometimes used that way!). – SJ + 22:43, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

  • SJ already asked Courcelles. Sadly no cooperation was forthcoming. And you are doubtless right that supporting Penyulap is a very bad idea, especially against Arbitrators who I may one day wish to appeal to. Nonetheless I made it clear in my retirement posting that I would continue to attempt to right this particular wrong, and I am not in the habit of going back on my word. Courcelles and Arbcom were both given opportunities to sort this out previously, Courcelles deleted my posts, Arbcom (despite you good offices, for which thanks) never had the courtesy to reply to me. Hardly reassuring behaviour. Rich Farmbrough, 17:52, 20 December 2012 (UTC).
    

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Christmas wham! crunch! urkk!

Bringing giftwrapped Chocolate Bishzilla for little nominator, omnomnom! Careful you don't get in the way of my cool santa hat morning star, seasonal replacement for biting! Just to keep everybody on their toes! darwinbish 23:30, 23 December 2012 (UTC).

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Hey Elen! Wishing you a very Happy Merry Christmas :) TheGeneralUser (talk) 12:26, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Happy holidays

Some Christmas traditions are very difficult to explain. Kind of like Misplaced Pages policies.

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Early greetings for the new year

Best Wishes for a Happy New Year! May 2013 bring you rewarding experiences and an abundance of everything you most treasure. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:57, 28 December 2012 (UTC) Victory, Janus, Chronos, and Gaea (1532–34) by Giulio Romano

Strange how someone I consider a font of humane jollity could poll so divisively—a result that in no way reflects how helpful you are to this community. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:57, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

What would YOU call this one?

Is called WP:Pointy, not WP:AGF, WP:Hounding, WP:Harrassment, no WP:Collaboration or WP:Canvassing or WP:LynchMob? Read down to the bottom and follow a few links to see how this volatile editor is being wound up. Find some excuse and try to ignore it! Yeah, I may be an IPSockpuppet (see your Wtshymanski complaint above, what was your first fucking clue?) but you're such a bitch and I still love you! Self indeffing now :) 174.118.152.20 (talk) 05:08, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

2013

File:Happy New Year 2013.jpg		Have an enjoyable New Year!
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Request assistance with Anonymous Editor

User 98.207.22.233 has been making a string of non-constructive edits to the project. After adding a non-notable uniquely named individual to various "People from ..." pages, edits were made to pages about a religion. First links to pages of things for sale from the uniquely named individual were added; after those edits were reverted, User 98.207.22.233 blanked the resources sections that contained links to books about the religion which appear on Amazon and WorldCat. Whatever you can do will be most gratefully appreciated. Ellin Beltz (talk) 07:57, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Edit stalking/repeated false vandalism accusations by User:Greaymarshess

Basically, the whole discussion is here ] now.TJD2 (talk) 08:19, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

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I assume you are the "Elen" User:Rich Farmbrough is referring to on my talk page @ User talk:Brewcrewer#Sepsis II. Any assistance would be appreciated. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 02:46, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Belated Happy New Year with a Toast!

	Here's a toast to the host Of those who edit wiki near and far, To a friend we send a message, "keep the data up to par". We drink to those who wrote a lot of prose, And then they whacked a vandal several dozen blows. A toast to the host of those who boast, the Wikipedians! - From {{subst:TheGeneralUser}}

~TheGeneralUser (talk) has bought you a whisky! Sharing a whisky is a great way to bond with other editors after a day of hard work. Spread the WikiLove by buying someone else a whisky, whether it be someone with whom you have collaborated or had disagreements. Enjoy!

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~TheGeneralUser (talk) — is wishing you a Happy New Year! This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Happy New Year!

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A Very Happy (belated) New Year to you Elen! Enjoy the Whisky ~TheGeneralUser (talk) 05:24, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Happy New Hot Cross Egg

Thanks everyone for the good wishes, chocolate, fish, whisky (particularly appreciated) and all else. I've not been around due to a combination of rushing around, determined relaxing, Caorunn, and a slow wave of lurgie passing through the family. Also, this place seems to have got at the cooking sherry and gone mad on Boxing Day, and I'm not sure it's recovered yet :). Still, I hope all of you had excellent holidays, whatever and however you celebrate them. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:52, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

AN

Your name was mentioned here. I'm not involved at all, just happened to notice that you weren't notified.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 14:17, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. It's pretty much a troll - enough admins in the Troubles area know who MoAinm was previously. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:01, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Letter k topic ban

Hi, and happy new year. As a recent Arbcom member I was wondering if you could take a quick look at WP:AN#Admin attention to an RFC/U, please and suggest whether from what you know about Arbcom an appeal is warranted. It is "only" 25,000 words, so I do not recommend spending more than 5 minutes. Basically there is a keyboard character that I can not mention that I am banned from using, and in editing documents I have already found multiple noncontroversial ways it would be helpful. The question, in a nutshell, is an editor being tenacious or tendentious? For example, there are other editors who have agreed that certain words might be spelled better with a k, or some other character, and I have recommended not bringing this up at all this year, other than in one or two RMs, each of which last only a week, and actually discuss the issue instead of parroting that it is disruptive to ask the question. Should any come up over the next six months, the deck is stacked, by eliminating one of the editors known to recommend the letter k, or other character. Secondly, I have characterized the RFC/U and the AN action as simply a result of the incivility at the MOS, which has not abated. Any thoughts? Apteva (talk) 18:06, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

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Quoted in arb case

Hey, Elen. I just realized I should have told you that I quoted you in the Arb case I recently requested. Sorry for the delay!--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:46, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

No worries. I'd have added something about the time I blocked him for 3 months, but it looks like its a snowball accept. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:41, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Anonymous nonsenser

Anonymous user 12.118.47.158 is persistently messing with a wide variety of articles. Any assistance would be most gratefully appreciated. Ellin Beltz (talk) 16:56, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Done --Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:18, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

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Tartanator

I see you've dealt with him in the past. I'm having issues with him in his present username "Guerrila of the Renmin" where he has taken ownership of not one but three disambiguation pages when I discovered one of them was using CJK characters (now at AFD), one he redirected to the first, and a third he kept because the items listed are written with different CJK characters than the first. What should be the next course of action with this guy before he attempts to clean start again because he's up to his usual tricks.—Ryulong (琉竜) 11:29, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

You have got to be kidding me. I only (remove content/redirect and) revert you once on each DAB page (which I will not do until the AFD closes as a certain "Keep"), and you jump to conclusions that I will "attempt to clean start again" and scramble for administrative assistance. Give it a break. GotR 16:00, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

You threaten to have my "other rights taken away" because I reverted your removals of places named "Pine Mountain" on Songshan. How is this not an issue?—Ryulong (琉竜) 04:09, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

You were abusing rollback for what was clearly not vandalism or otherwise intentionally disruptive editing. Yes, my edit summary was blunt, but you must bear the full brunt of responsibility for this; we both know very well that I alone cannot have your "other rights taken away", and that if you continue using rollback in such a manner, the community will not look kindly upon you. You need to start breaking out of your present mentality.

Oh, and more than 24 hours have passed since you came here whining; I have fulfiled my promises of not removing from/redirecting each DAB, so you have no right whatsoever to continue complaining (with not an iota of evidence, too) about OWNership. GotR 21:05, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Hey

I see that your edit level has severely declined. I hope you're not planning to retire :( — ΛΧΣ 21:20, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Not so much retire as leave before I'm forced out I'm afraid. I am advised (by a member of Arbcom, so I'm not at all sure whether I'm meant to keep this seekrit) that they are holding a seekrit discussion about removing my oversight and checkuser right (because of course the inhabitants of this place don't trust me). Of course I don't get to see or take part in the discussion, and when they've finished the seekrit discussion (they have kindly told me) they will give me a chance to disappear quietly.

Amusingly, Coren announced on being elected that he had 're-activated' all his archives, confirming my previously stated concern that the system fires your personal information into the mailboxes of third parties who can then retain it whether they are still authorised or not.

To deflect attention from this painful fact, the Committee seem to have decided that the world will be safer without me, as I'm obviously so much of a risk to your sensitive personal data that I'm employed in a Data Compliance role in the UK (which has some of the strictest laws protecting sensitive personal data). So I guess I'll not be around much - I'm sure the removal of CU and OS will be followed in a few months by some grounds or other for a desysop, or perhaps I'll just be blocked for saying this.

I never met such a crazy setup. An open wiki with a lead organisation that is persecuting an ex member basically for not covering up the crazy behaviour of another member is mad enough. But to then say that person cannot be trusted with actual personal data, while happily maintaining a setup that guarantees that any personal data you send them gets immediately fired all over the internet, is just, well, mad.

So its so long and thanks for all the fish, I guess. I might stop by occasionally and see whether the account is still unblocked. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:23, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry about that, Elen. I see how utterly unproductive those who tear down others here are.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:25, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, no worries. I never was much of an editor. Although maybe I'll get the chance to fix that English muffin article some time. Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:31, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Editors are not determined by statistics. It's about what you are here for.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:36, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Wow. This is just really unexpected and very sad. I still don't understand how a trusted member of the community like you could have been overkilled, but I think that this is just a maximized version of what happened to me some time ago (a bigger fish, a bigger weapon). I am starting to think that ArbCom was the worst thing that happened to you. — ΛΧΣ 23:34, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

• I'm sorry (and, stupid, stupid me, surprised) to hear this, Elen. I don't always agree with you, but I've always felt you had a large reservoir of clue, which is more valuable than people who agree with me all the time. When I've saved up my pennies and created Grownupedia, I'll ping you. Of course, we won't need checkusers and oversighters because we'll all be grownups... Still, it will be a point of pride if the Grownupedia's English muffin article is better than WP's. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

• • Perhaps, Elen, you should make public the email you were actually sent rather than the one you seem to have invented? (Given that your description of it doesn't seem to resemble the former in the slightest).

    Oh, and while you're at it, you might want to mention that my data retention policy you seem so stunned with now was detailed over a year ago to both the Committee and the foundation general counsel and that you didn't have any objections then. — Coren  04:26, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi Coren. Tackling that last one first, you're clearly not doing anything wrong in US law according to counsel. I mentioned you only because I got the sense that people did not believe me that Arbitrators could retain these archives, and you handily confirmed that they did. In UK law, an organization would have been fined out of existence for the way that mailing list worked. Both countries have a completely different definition of private information and the expectations pertaining thereto, and it's not up to me to decide whether the current approach is kosher or not, although I would counsel anyone in the UK never to send sensitive personal data to Arbcom as were they an organisation which fell under the UK Data Protection legislation (which clearly they are not) their data security is lousy.

As to the email, I don't mean to sound cranky, but as you sent it from the mailing list and copied it to Arbcom, I believe I am unable to repeat it here as it is of course top secret (I have pointed out previously that the mailing list policies prohibit anyone who has received an email from Arbcom from circulating it or posting it). I do concede that it contains the line "Any response you send will be circulated and considered before taking a decision" - I do not consider either the email or that line to be the equivalent of hearing and being able to respond to my accusers, and I prefer not to take part in show trials if you don't mind.

I appreciate that your intention in sending it was to 'do the right thing'. Can I ask why is this being done by private motion and not onwiki? Probably not. I do think Arbcom in general ought to have the courage to place their opinions of me onwiki, not still be hiding behind a cloak of private discussion, with the sop of getting an individual to send me an email that the Committee know perfectly well I am prohibited from sharing with others.

Response to motion

I do not believe I can be prohibited from replying to the motion onwiki, and so that is what I intend to do. Should any other Arbs communicate their concerns to me, I will respond here.

To respond to the issue that Coren posed, which was along the lines that he did not trust that I would not suddenly decide that some other piece of information should not be kept private. I have a very clear understanding about the need to protect personally revealing information provided by or on individuals. Following UK law, such data must not be shared with individuals who are not authorised to see it (and numerous large fines show the vigour with which this is followed up). The WMF privacy policy relating to OS and CU data covers the same types of data and has the same restrictions (I wonder if it is modeled on European law, which is stricter, to give it the widest possible applicability). It contains more than adequate provision to cover the exceedingly rare situation where a CU or OS might find themselves in possession of information that urgently needs to be lawfully passed to a third party (eg the Feds), and it is clear that the WMF takes an active role in managing that, through their emergency mail system.

That (to my mind) is quite a different situation to revealing outrageous statements made by Misplaced Pages Arbitrators which, in the opinion already given by several lawyers who perused the situation, could never have had an expectation of privacy in the first place. What must I think be in Coren's mind is that an oversighter can see an allegation about a third party that warranted oversight. Some allegations might be explosive and have very serious consequences (claiming someone is a paedophile or an undercover cop could endanger their lives), others less so, but the key thing is that it must be personally revealing information to be oversighted under the the WMF policy. If the text does not fall into that class, then it should not be oversighted (handily allowing any administrator to delete gross insults that reveal no personal data). If it is oversighted, then it is covered by the policy and can only be revealed to a third party under the constraints imposed by that policy. That's a bright line.

In the case of Checkuser data, it is a little more complicated. The WMF will only provide it to a third party on being presented with the right order from the right court. Consequently, a checkuser should theoretically never be discussing CU data with non CUs. It sometimes happens on the Functionaries list, which has non-CU functionaries subscribed, but all are agreed on that list that it shouldn't happen, and it certainly must not happen anywhere else. At the same time, it is sometimes necessary to put information into SPIs, particularly when dealing with persistent vandals and diligent sockfarmers - and paid editing rings that are socking from each other's locations. There's more of a balancing act here - the minimum necessary information to the smallest number of people, being aware that "editing thru a proxy in China" conveys no identifying information, "editing on a RoadRunner range" just says they are in the US while some Verizon ranges practically give you a street address, "range 212.xxx.xxx.xxx/24" will tell anyone who does a lookup that the editor is in the North of England, "IP is assigned to FooCorp" means you've just revealed where the guy works even if you haven't posted the IP address, and "always edits from FooCorp IP between 23.00 and 06.00 means that FooCorp can finger him as the night watchman. Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:42, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

I have, of course, no objection to discussing the matter here if you so prefer. That email was sent to you, and you can dispose of it as you will; the Committee would not have disclosed it without your permission, but you are free to do so.

I don't think anyone has any doubt that you are well aware of the constraints of the law (certainly nobody on the Committee does), and indeed even the more exacting standards of European law, and that you would follow that religiously. The problem lies in that our rules (the Committee's and the Foundation's) do not align with those laws: some things European law covers that US law does not, and some things our policy protects that the law does not. No arbitrator is allowed to simply pick and choose by fiat what should or should not have been covered by our rules, yet this is exactly what you did. Had you constrained yourself at expressing concerns (publicly or not) that you were being bullied by Jclemens, it would have been okay. Demand that the Committee release the email? Kosher. Hell, seek help from the Foundation if you felt ArbCom wasn't doing enough to protect you? Also fine. (Incidentally, I do agree that the Committee had handled Jclemens's behaviour poorly but, given the proximity to the election and the sudden worries around a new leak that just sprung up...)

What you did, instead, is decide unilaterally that it was okay for you to leak that email (and part of another) to a buddy of yours. You knew it was against our rules to do so, but decided that you were justified in ignoring them because they didn't match some other set of rules you preferred. In short, I don't have a worry that you might discard our confidentiality rules when you don't find them agreeable – I observe that you already have.

And then you lied and obfuscated to hide what you did. You claim, post-fact, that this was done to protect the person you sent to email to, but that rings hollow: they had nothing to be protected from; all they did is pass along an email that they never were under any obligation to keep confidential to begin with.

And lastly, come the claims of whistleblowing. You started claiming, long after it was determined you were not being truthful, to have done so out of a desire to expose (or, in your words, "not cover up") misbehaviour by another arbitrator. Funnily(!) enough, I agree that Jclemens's behaviour was bad enough, probably, for outright expulsion from the committee and that – if the Committee failed to act – making that behaviour known publicly so that the community could act (if only with their voting ballots) might have been entirely defensible.

But that's not what you did. A whistleblower makes a matter public or brings it to the authorities, then owns up to their action. If a rule had to be broken in order to do so, then they accept the consequences and take their lumps. What you did is gossip to at least one friend, then lie and cover it up when the breach of the rule became apparent. You didn't step forward to make a great wrong public, you desperately tried to cover up when your gossip leaked beyond your control. You didn't own up to your action as ethically justified or necessary, you lied and misdirected to conceal your involvement as long as you could.

So, no, I do not trust you. — Coren  13:35, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi Elen. I'm leaving this note here to suggest a way forward and to give a bit more background. As you know, ArbCom tends to have a lot of things on its plate at the same time. This was one matter which was being discussed, and then brought to a head by Coren's e-mail to you. That e-mail was not from the committee, but from him with the committee copied in (though I for one hadn't seen that e-mail before it was sent). As you correctly surmise, that e-mail prompted more discussion. At some point in that, I checked when you had last edited and noticed that it was sometime previously (10 days or so) - Coren can probably clarify whether he had noticed your absence or not. That would have been a good point to send a follow-up e-mail asking for a brief response from you when you got back as to whether you wanted this discussed in public or dealt with by e-mail. You are right that you should have been brought in on this much earlier, and that a public discussion is in some ways easier than e-mail and certainly more transparent, but we are where we are now. I hope we can wind this back a bit and start again. I have suggested to the rest of ArbCom that we move this discussion to a public fora (somewhere better suited for this than your talk page), but it is quite possible that the decision may be that most of the discussion needs to remain internal, though I am happy to state on-wiki my views on the matter. It may take us a while to sort this out, but let me know what you think and how you would like this dealt with. Thanks. Carcharoth (talk) 01:39, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Carcharoth. I don't myself see there being particularly a privacy issue with this - it's surely down to individual Arbs views which would, to my mind, be better expressed in public. It's also likely to spark a more general discussion - Coren refers to 'the rules' above, as if they are a monolith, but the whole thing showed that there are actually at least three 'rules': the WMF privacy policy (which appears to be bound by law in various countries and is therefore a bright line, as well as being nice and clear in its application), that part of the Arb Policy which relates to privacy and confidentiality (which is approved by the community and subject to change only by approved procedure, but which from the opinions offered by several lawyers at the time is clearly not as restrictive as Coren for example believes that it is), and finally the custom and practice of Arbcom not appearing in any written policy, which is that its mailing list is under the seal of the confessional, and verbatim text from it can never be quoted.

I can understand a concern that any onwiki discussion will just spiral off. A more managed venue than my talkpage would definitely be good. I will await further communication. Elen of the Roads (talk) 10:44, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Elen. It may not be until after the weekend now, but I (or another arbitrator) will update you when we have decided where to go from here. Will you be around on-wiki this weekend if there are any questions that arise relating to this? What I think may happen (certainly the way I would approach this) is for each arbitrator who has concerns to state them on-wiki (much like Coren did above), likely in the context of a motion designed to resolve this, and for you to respond individually or collectively, and then a decision taken. My own concern is that I don't want to take a decision until I've heard what you have to say, but I think I'm right in saying that you don't want to respond until you have the assurance of a public venue (partly to air your concerns as you have above)? Would that be about right? Carcharoth (talk) 20:41, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I think you've summed it up well. Given the amount of snow coming down outside, I don't expect I'm going anywhere outside walking distance, so I'll check in anywhere you want over the weekend. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:18, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

A brief update

Just to tell you where things are now and not leave you hanging: we're currently hashing out the details of a proposed motion that will be posted publicly for voting (I expect /Motions is the most likely venue), and where you will have have an opportunity to respond. That motion will not propose removal of your permissions; that alternative has been robustly discussed (to say the least) and it would have passed or failed by the barest of margins depending on an abstention and an inactive arbitrator – and nobody feels that a decision that marginal on such a delicate issue is advantageous to anyone or the project.

So that you are not taken by surprise, the proposed motion will consist of a strong admonition and a reminder; I expect it should be ready for public discussion in a day or two. — Coren  16:07, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the update Coren. I shall await further announcement. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:12, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm thinking per WP:SELF I shouldn't update Star chamber to include Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee, right? NE Ent 17:21, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I should say that WP:POINT is the one you are thinking of, or perhaps WP:POINTLESSHYPERBOLE? I mean, after all, exactly like the Star Chamber court we didn't inform Elen of charges... oh. Well, we certainly didn't give her the opportunity to comment or... oh. Well, we certainly used it as a political cover for a pre-ordained conclusion that couldn't possible change... oh. — Coren  18:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Those of us not privy to the star chamber secret tribunal may not be entirely comfortable with seeing Elen's character and community spirit impugned at vague length on this page, followed by a threat of "strong admonition and a reminder" in a day or two that's stretched to a week. I had been hoping to learn more about ArbCom's standard of ethics. I'm fine with saying it's nobody's business, if Elen is satisfied with how the matter has been resolved. But while I've never been interested in exercising any powers other than reason on Misplaced Pages, I do like to be a concerned citizen of the community, aware of its norms, procedures, and codes of behavior. I suppose I'd like to hear either "it's been resolved privately, nothing to see here, move along," or a clearer articulation of the issues we should be aware of as a community. Cynwolfe (talk) 21:40, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Non-arb and arb commentary

Welcome to the masses; you're treatment is not uncommon for us grunts. Indeed, you were on the Arbcom that decided I was too untrustworthy to have the CU (or OS I forget exactly) bit because of a comment I made about publicly logging IRC... despite managing to be a perfectly OK OTRS agent, and a RL digital forensic analyst (yep, I iz in ur computers!). So.. I do have sympathy. Chin up and sock it to the secrecy :) Perhaps consider it a learning experience ready for a new Arbcom stint in a few years. --Errant 12:00, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

;\ I remember that. The plain truth is that except for the odd candidate that no-one would trust further than they could throw them for some very obvious reason, it just comes down to personal view/like/dislike. Never seemed very satisfactory, but when secret ballots were held, I gather nobody voted. Before that, I believe and RfA type process was used, which was replaced with the secret ballots . That wasn't felt to be very satisfactory either (but I could be wrong about that - it's before my time). Not sure I'd stand for Arb again - too much like that Greek guy rolling the rock up the hill. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:43, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Yeh, I know - the only thing that annoyed me was that it was dressed up with an excuse. I can't stand that sort of dishonesty. I guess what you're feeling now is what a lot of people dragged before Arbcom feel - so I think you should think about standing back up there. It's like... how politicians are so disconnected from the populace, but every so often one falls to disgrace and comes back "changed". I dunno, I might have drunk too much good claret :) Anways; I think in this situation you were placed between a rock and a hard place, and although I voted Nay for you (because I believe it is worth changing arbcom membership as much as possible), you have my support for what you did. All this faux secrecy hides a lot of bad stuff (TM) and in exposing just a small portion of it I think you've upheld the core of our communities ideals. My advice? I find walking away for a bit, or narrowly focusing on a non-contentious topic that interests you, is like a balm. And eventually people will forget you are a BAD person(TM) leaving you in peace. Tools 'r' not the be all an end all. Are you interested in WW2 history? I have a whole topic area that desperately needs some lurving... :D --Errant 23:29, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Elen, Coren has an interest in keeping alleged Arbitator misbehaviour under the super secret seal of the mailing list archives, the fallout from the his block of Giano makes it clear that his own actions have been and are being concealled from the community by the policy on list secrecy. Any former Arbitrator who has misused the list has reason to fear disclosure and the idea that you are unable to distinguish between genuinely sensitive personally identifying information and material that should have been addressed on-wiki is a fiction – in reality, it is precisely because you are capable of understanding the distinction that you are feared. I am surprised and disappointed that you are being targetted but not at all surprised that Coren would be leading the charge. Unlike you, however, I have great difficulty assuming that the motivation is about potential misuse of the tools or the information to which you have access; that is merely a pretext for action, and I hope that there are enough members of the current Committee who recognise this. EdChem (talk) 12:30, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

I see this as the unending hounding that eventually loses us another worthy contributor who happens to be politically disfavoured.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:01, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Elen, you should not be denied a public hearing. Elen, nobody should not be denied a public hearing, and nobody should be denied an opportunity to defend himself publicly. The only thing I cannot understand why while being an arbitrator you bluntly denied the same right to others or simply ignored requests for transparency. I guess what goes around comes around, and now you've found yourself on the receiving end of the Arbitration Committee. 76.126.173.89 (talk) 17:03, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

I believe that she did so because it was what she was entitled to do; it was part of her job as an Arbitrator to behave like that. Otherwise, she would have been removed way before. I, as a member of a family surrounded by politics, understand how this works. If you are good enough, you will be removed by your peers. If you are bad enough, you will be killed by community. Then, the only choice you have is to balance both. Of course, you can weigh in for one side (e.g. to be as good as possible, or as bad as possible) without breaching the red line and being shown the door, and this will become the textbook that the whole community will read when assessing your contributions to the project. — ΛΧΣ 20:50, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

The thing is that sometimes "balancing" is not an option because as I said before what goes around comes around, and besides there's also this. 76.126.173.89 (talk) 22:32, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

I always feel that conversations have reached a low ebb on this project when someone is quoting that poem. Although I do sometimes feel that Misplaced Pages has reached the point where Cromwell is suppressing the Levellers. However, in both of the cases you quote, silence was the only answer, in that no evidence could be presented because there was none to present. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 10:49, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Isn't it interesting that Coren chose to add a "Kibitzers" sub-heading. According to the Kibitzer article offers "(often unwanted) advice or commentary" and I have no doubt that Coren would prefer no advice or commentary on this issue. More interestingly, however, kibitzing is a chess term referring to a spectator or spectators "making comments on a chess game that can be heard by the players. Kibitzing on a serious game while it is in progress (rather than during a post-mortem) is a serious breach of chess etiquette." Consequently, I feel the need to point out:

1. ArbCom contemplating sanctions on an editor is not akin to a game, no matter how much any arbitrator might wish to see editors as pawns to be controlled at will.
2. ArbCom do not rule the community, and commenting on proposed ArbCom actions is not a breach of etiquette. Further, the community are not supposed to be spectators who have no role in contributing to ArbCom proceedings.
3. Coren may view himself as manoeuvring to win a contest and defeat Elen and thus that pointing out to Elen other potential motivations is unfair, but all that illustrates is his bias and demonstrates how inappropriate is his approach here.
4. I note from Carcharoth's post that he felt the need to inform Elen directly that Coren's "e-mail was not from the committee, but from him with the committee copied in (though I for one hadn't seen that e-mail before it was sent)." Coren's on-wiki comments to date did sound (to me) like he was representing himself as spokesperson for a Committee-agreed position (though I haven't seen the email, of course). Three weeks into a new term as arbitrator, Coren is apparently already pursuing unilateral authority, and Carcharoth's comments indicate a desire to set aside this behaviour to instead focus on a more appropriate discussion of Elen's situation ("... but we are where we are now. I hope we can wind this back a bit and start again"). Inappropriate arbitrator behaviour will continue to go unaddressed, I fear.

EdChem (talk) 07:00, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

(Note, just so as not to wrongfoot EdChem's comment above: I'm disappointed that Coren created a section with the condescending header "Kibitzers" for the non-arb commentary here. Really, Coren..! Separating these posts from Olympus up above may be convenient, indeed, and I'm not removing the separate header; but I'm changing it to "non-arb commentary", which seems appropriately dull and neutral. Bishonen | talk 21:20, 25 January 2013 (UTC).)

Thanks Bish. As you say, a dull and neutral header seems preferrable here, where the opinion of the community does appear to me to have quite a bit of relevance, and not be kibitzing at all. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:49, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I wish formally to state that I am not here kibitzing but (broadly defined) gongoozling. I do hope that this helps. Best wishes 82.45.217.156 (talk) 11:27, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I am dismayed to see Elen considering stepping back from Misplaced Pages and more than dismayed to see efforts to push her to a situation where she can't use the abilities she has to Misplaced Pages's best interests. The election shows Elen has a lot of community support and had her situation been heard with out the drama that stalks some of Wkipedia's pages she'd probably have more. I have always had concerns about unilateral power-too many editors damaged by deliberate biased actions. And I have equal concern with the power generated on talk pages to create chaos, and emotional upsurges that have little meaning in terms of logic and reality. This is a collaborative community which means we can use a community in both healthy and unhealthy ways. I 'm not saying Coren is doing anything beyond voicing a concern, but the impact could be as has happened in the past to create a volatile situation that impacts unfairly another person. I sure do wish Misplaced Pages had a visible-to-the-community-page where something could be explained and where the general community could not come in and pile on, colouring and perhaps twisting what has been said and done. Another fine mess.(olive (talk) 17:46, 24 January 2013 (UTC))

• Coren may not have thought through the implications of his unhappy turn of phrase. If he did, his thinking was not representative of the view of this arb, nor (I'd guess) that of a majority of my colleagues. AGK 11:37, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

• Also, Elen, I see above that you are under the impression we are out for your head. This is wrong. Nobody intends to ever propose any action other than the revocation of your advanced permissions. I certainly do not think your sysop rights have been questioned, nor that a siteban is being proposed. AGK 11:42, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I think Wehwalt's comments about Charlie Brown and the football probably explains the reaction - although I fully accept your assurances as to your own motivations. I think everyone is aware that there are at least three prominent editors who would be happy to see me sitebanned for insufficient application in the bunny boiling department, so I think it's not a wholly fantastical theory on my part. Still, what will be will be. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:01, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

• The move to expel Elen from ArbCom was extraordinary as there was no complaining party; a second such procedure doesn't exactly give assurance for the future, AGK. At some point, Charlie Brown quite rightly concludes it's irrelevant which way the wind is blowing as he runs up to kick the football that Lucy is holding. There's also something about sticks and the present state of equines that I would urge upon the Committee.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:55, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

• @ Wehwalt. As you (and we've) seen in the past, a bully never likes to be challenged, so it's not surprising when they call in their friends and markers. @Elen. You still have my full, complete, and unadulterated trust. Just the view from one peon. — Ched :  ?  14:45, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
• Elen, just a lurker weighing in that you are on the side of the angels. If The "Queen of Hearts" ("off with her head!") contingent is targeting you, and they are, don't let them run you off, we need you and those like you - too many good, solid contributors are being run off for, at most, momentary brain farts - and said momentary brain farts were often filled with good intentions with the goal of improving "teh wiki" ;) . There are some seriously problematic people on-wiki, but the ones I am thinking of are not you, but some (not all) of those in positions of power and influence. I feel sad that they have you in the beam of their magnifying glass, but don't let 'em fry you! Montanabw 00:32, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Oddly, the effect has been probably the opposite of that intended - I had been busy elsewhere and taking a bit of a break, but it's brought me back here. I'll just have to wait and see what comes next. Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:28, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

• For the record, I used "Kibitzers" in its "A back-and-forth conversation outside the main issue, where the people having the conversation are not directly participating" sense (which I had believed the be the primary, if not sole, meaning). I did not mean to imply that the commentary was particularly unwanted, only that it was from uninvolved parties and the separation was only meant to allow dialogue about the substantive matter to flow without interruption. — Coren  00:30, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

• Where the heck did you get that definition? Kibitzer and wikt:kibitzer are pretty clear the word means the key element of the word is unwanted. NE Ent 03:41, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I always thought a kibitzer was the guy two stools along at the bar, offering unsolicited advice on your choice of drink/date/spouse/job/car etc. The sort of guy the barman has to rescue you from. Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:35, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

To me, kibiters bring to mind the image of Statler and Waldorf, which is hardly anywhere that pejorative (and considerably more amusing). The choice of word was brought on by levity, and not out of any intent to insult; I am sorry if I've offended anyone by using it. — Coren  15:09, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I did not take it as an insult, because "kibitzer" is a term which is usually used slightly tongue-in-cheek. The problem more generally I have with the situation being brought up by you now is that the conduct of Elen was considered, and as far as I am concerned, settled, by ArbCom during a term for which you sought to be a member, and the community told you no, as you were not re-elected in 2011. Coming back now and saying "by the way, there were some things ArbCom did when I was gone that I don't agree with and I'd like to redo" is somewhat problematical, as it was by the community's wish that you were not a part of the decision in December 2012. Of course, you may have campaigned on the platform that you would go and reconsider 2012 decisions in 2013, including with specificity the Elen situation, if you did you can give me a link and, if so, you will be heartily within your rights.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:30, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, we could get into an interesting debate about ongoing committee responsibilities, but the simpler matter is simply that the matter was not settled by the end of the year – it had simply stalled for a number of reasons.

You are correct that I have not campaigned on such a platform – not counting the fact that it would have been extraordinarily inappropriate to do so during the election (the closest I've ever gotten to something like that was opine on the propriety of Jclemens's "not a Wikipedian" comment as an answer to a direct question) – I could not possibly claim to have enough information to pronounce myself on that incident at the time.

That said, advanced permission review is part of the normal scope of the sitting ArbCom, and there is nothing exceptional about the incoming committee making that evaluation as part of settling in (to wit what happened around FT2 in 2009). — Coren  17:46, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Then let me suggest that it is a poor idea to establish precedents that can bite you in the ass.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:54, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

While I'm not sure exactly what brought on the above, it's reminding me forcibly about when I closed a discussion after having asked a single question, and was reverted for being WP:INVOLVED by an admin who had been an active participant in the discussion. I gave up my bit for a couple of months in disgust, but came back later. Hope to see you at full throttle again soon, Elen! --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 07:42, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I am astonished anyone in this day and age thinks an email has any hope of being private. Reminds me of the woman in 1881 who was upset because the contents of her singing telegram became known to others! For at least the last century, electronic or post correspondence is the property of the recipient, hence the high auction prices for historic letters which go to the owner of the letter or telegram, not the sender's descendants. For someone to get upset about electronic mail shared by the recipient to the point of reams of commentary and redefining the English language, shows me that emotion has become involved because logic and reason are discarded unused. As a retired college professor with years of graduate student spat-solving, I read the entire foregoing text and find it obvious where the fault lays. I also introduce Sayre's law into the discussion with a reminder that the project is what is important here not "winning" or "scoring points." Yes, be bold, but don't forget the politeness. That said, let me add my voice to the chorus crying "Elen, please don't leave!" Us little people in the trenches need you. PS to anyone who wants to take a bite out of me for my opinion... you'll show your truest colors when you do, so have at. Ellin Beltz (talk) 18:45, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

So with this edit Coren states Elen is deceitful, a gossip, untrustworthy, a liar and unethical ... and adds a section header for "levity" because he's thinking about Muppets? NE Ent 15:02, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, I did ask him to give his honest opinion. At least he didn't hold back. Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:54, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

"Liar and gossip" imply the other insults.

I had thought this year's ArbCom would a relative safe haven from the decadence of WP. What has WTT gotten himself into?

The best last all conviction, etc. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:22, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Tell me about it... I swear I'm sprouting grey hairs... can't believe it's only just been a month... Worm(talk) 12:42, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Just another morlock stopping by to say "Don't let the bastards grind you down." So, uh, don't let the bastards grind you down. Life is short, the world is large, and almost no one gets what they deserve. But I like the pseudo-person that appears here as "you", and wish you well. - 124.168.72.151 (talk) 12:04, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

List of The Singing Bee (Australian game show) episodes

I wonder if I must nominate this page for deletion. It consists of mere songs that were used in the show. There is nothing encyclopedic about this, as it may violate WP:NOTIINFO. --George Ho (talk) 02:41, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. As Elen won't be very active, I nominated the list. You are welcome to post your vote there if you wish. Regards. — ΛΧΣ 03:02, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 22:35, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Collis P. Huntington VS. the Anonymous Editor, round 30

Hello again... Collis Potter Huntington has been changed several times recently Collis Potter Huntington's History Page by a pair of anonymous users & . The edit summaries look quite educated, but if you look at the actual edits on the page, they're very ignorant. Any help you or other admins can give to this page, which for some reason seems to attract odd vandals (or perhaps just the same one over & over). Ellin Beltz (talk) 23:53, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

The same problem is also to be found at James Buchanan's edit history and Franklin Pierce's edit history. Ellin Beltz (talk) 23:56, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) comment - not sure why you mention 71.246.62.88 here since their only contribution seems to be fixing Collis Potter Huntington. Agree that the other "editing" is a real problem though. :( 82.45.217.156 (talk) 11:42, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

• Materialscientist blocked the 67 IP for a month (sorry I wasn't quicker off the mark) - agree with 82.45 that the other IP was only trying to fix the mess. Don't know why poor Collis Potter Huntington seems to attract vandals. I can understand juvies vandalising Penis or Beyonce - they have one of the first category, and probably...well, you can guess the interaction with the second. But how would you even find Collis Potter Huntington if you didn't already know he existed. Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:24, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for a stop to the anonymous editing! @anon-TalkPageStalker... I mentioned both 71 & 67 because I couldn't figure out what was going on, and rather than make a bad situation worse, I pointed to both IPs and asked for help. @Elen... My guess is that C.P. was found on some kind of "Potter" search at some point and has been attractive to mess with ever since. The other page in constant vandalism state that I watch is Guy Fieri who is apparently, in his spare time from the Food Network, also the Antichrist. It gets changed, we change it back, it gets changed... I wish these people put as much effort into working on the project for real as they do on trying to mess it up! Ellin Beltz (talk) 18:18, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

That's hilarious! Although I gather he's in competition with Simon Cowell for the antichrist tag . And did you know, Colonel Sanders discovered the elixir of life, and added it to the KFC recipe (I can't find the vandalism for that unfortunately - someone wrote a whole spoof article about how Harlan Sanders is still alive and eating KFC (if you can find the shop that sells the right version) will make you live forever, but I can't recall the exact title. Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:01, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Muffins, English

Elen, please don't give up, 'cos you have friends ... and the English muffin article is still patiently awaiting your visit. Really. Politics is poo but editing is good. Best wishes 82.45.217.156 (talk) 11:19, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

PS Yes I am not logged in but don't worry, no drama, no conspiracy, I'm just on a break ... not someone you know well or anyone interesting or important. Just would hate to see you stop editing here, that's all. Cheers 82.45.217.156 (talk) 11:22, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

No worries. I agree, the best thing is to ditch the politics and get some editing in :) And don't worry about logging out here to avoid drama - it's only the ones who log out to leave insults that get bit by User:Darwinbish (usually) --Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:45, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Love that song, BTW. Always been a fan of both of them, so put them together and boom! --Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:46, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks - yes, great song, great combination of artists. And I really wasn't logged out here to avoid drama, but merely because I was on a self-imposed break so actually couldn't log in at that time! :) Cheers 82.45.217.156 (talk) 12:27, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

90.202.58.225

I begin to think that the user, 90.202.58.225 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) may be Anthony Weights (talk · contribs). Look at Cheers (season 4) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) What shall I do? --George Ho (talk) 16:27, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

No he's not. You can relax. 90.202.58.225 used Misplaced Pages:Articles for Creation to create the article. Anthony Weights works at AFC approving new articles and moving them into article space. Check his user contributions - you can see him doing the same with lots of articles. Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:52, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 17:32, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Checkuser question

Elen, I know you're not terribly active, but on the other hand, I probably know you better than other active checkusers, so I'll bug you first. Do I understand correctly that a CU can tell whether or not one account sent another account an email thru the WP interface? Not the contents, but the fact that the email was or was not sent. In a case where one user says another user sent them a harassing email, and the other user denies sending any emails at all, would a CU be willing to check this? Not asking for the check yet; still hoping the one not telling the truth comes clean without the check. But I'm inclined to block the liar indefinitely if he doesn't come clean, whichever one it turns out to be. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:37, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't think CheckUser can see the recipient of the emails. They can only see that the email was sent and the IP address from which it was sent.--Jasper Deng (talk) 23:40, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Oh, well, rats. If that's the case, I guess CU could still conclusively disprove one of the claims, but not the other. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:51, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Actually, it would still work; the other user says they have not sent any emails thru the WP interface in over a month, so a check could be used to substantiate one side or the other's claim. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:58, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

The checkuser tool shows if the user sent an email through the interface, but only shows who it was sent to as as a hash code. I suspect that somewhere there is a lookup table, but it's only available to a developer. However, if the user is insisting that they never sent email thru the interface, that can be demonstrated with the tool. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:06, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

If someone doesn't come clean, is this something you'd be willing to check? --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:08, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Please, just go on with it now. This is getting really annoying, like a bug that won't stop flying by your ear and you can never hit it in time.  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 00:10, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, if your user is alleging that they have received harrassing emails from User:Foo, they need to forward the emails, ideally with all the headers - it would then be possible to compare that fairly definitively with the return from the checkuser tool. Even without the full header, the tool could compare timestamps. I wouldn't be happy to do it without confirmation that the email exists. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:14, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I've sent you an email, Elen (if you doubt it, you can use CU to verify! :) ) --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:20, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I'll just leave you guys to it.  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 00:21, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Resolved – With an indef block, no CU needed after all. The accusation against Status is false. Thanks for your time. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:06, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

No worries. This guy sounds like a piece of work. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:45, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 01:10, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Your recent activity on the Castle topic

You deleted some sourcing that I did on this topic and you claimed that my sources were "poor"-a National database of paranormal research? Also you closed the topic to anyone but admin. for one week. Wow-I'm not impressed. Over-use of power and for a completely power-abuse reason. That is not what admin. status is for you know? 24.0.133.234 (talk) 02:47, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

You are mistaken. I made no edits to the article, I just protected it as there was a content dispute resulting in multiple rapid changes. Please discuss any changes you want to make with other editors on the talk page - if there is consensus on what to put in the article, the protection can be removed. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:00, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

I note there's already a couple of edit requests up on the talkpage. Do you want to comment on their suitability, and maybe add an edit request of your own for others to discuss? --Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:21, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Just as well it was protected in the state it's currently in. This material, which 24.0.133.234 restored three times in the course of his edit-warring is a blatant copyright violation. See Talk:Foulksrath Castle#Copyright issue. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 17:04, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Nice catch. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:17, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Subject: Elen of the Roads, Misplaced Pages administrator

Elen, I am happy to see that your edit count is gradually climbing again. Without getting into the merits of your recent Arbcom controversy, I must say that I have always known you to be a circumspect and conscientious administrator, and Misplaced Pages would be a poorer organization if you were to abruptly lay down your tools, vanish, or fade into semi-retirement. There is a place for you and role for you to fill, and I hope you continue to do so. Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:02, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. As I said above, that's the odd thing. Without Coren emailing me to say that Arbcom were going to do whatever it is they haven't done yet, it might have been a while before I got back to editing, other things having sprung out of the woodwork to take up the time (well OK, not woodwork. Rather, I had set about compiling all the cuttings of recipes I'd acquired over the years).--Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:16, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks to everyone else who has said kind things about me. I hope I can continue to be at least somewhat useful. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:16, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

• Sounds like a new userbox is needed. "This editor is somewhat useful despite..." --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:36, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

• I don't use those boxes, but feel free to join my red cat, and "ban complaining" (see my user, actually from Bach's Christmas Oratorio) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:00, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

You've got mail!

Hello, Elen of the Roads. Please check your email; you've got mail!
Message added 21:54, 7 February 2013 (UTC). It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

— ΛΧΣ 21:54, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Dry glue

So after the whole fiasco I was asked to go edit elsewhere. I looked at your profile and saw Dry glue. I noticed the first sentence is written in an odd way, and the revision history says you wrote it. So I figured your opinion was the best on the subject. It originally read

• Dry glue is a method of adhesion based upon the naturally occurring adaptations of the feet of geckos, which allow them to climb sheer surfaces, and even glass walls.

I changed it to

• Dry glue is a method of adhesion based upon the naturally occurring foot adaptations that allow geckos to climb sheer surfaces and even glass walls.

alternatively, you could even write the same sentence as

• Dry glue is a method of adhesion based upon the naturally occurring adaptations that allow gecko feet to climb sheer surfaces and even glass walls.

It kind of becomes potatoe potato at that point. I personally think keeping the words foot and adaptation next to each other is a better idea, because the adhesive is specifically developed from the foot adaptations and not general gecko adaptations (such as a knee adaptation that assists in climbing.) Also, if we are being completely pedantic, the entire gecko climbs the wall, not just their feet. So my first sentence should be the better of the two. But between the last two, it's a horse a piece and not even worth debating.

First I questioned whether the sentence should use which or that. If you don't know the difference, it's pretty clearly explained here. http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/which-versus-that.aspx I switched from which to that, to make the second half of the sentence a restrictive clause instead of a nonrestrictive clause. This was to reduce the chance of reading the sentence in a nonsensical way. Nonrestrictive clauses can be removed without changing the meaning of the sentence, restrictive clauses cannot. Removing the phrase "which allow them to climb sheer surfaces" drastically changes the meaning of the sentence. That is more appropriate than which. It makes the sentence more clear and easier to read (even in a subliminal way, few people would ever consciously notice.)

Then I removed the oxford comma after surfaces for the exact same reason which becomes that. With the comma "and even glass walls" could apply to the earlier clause, causing the reader to accidentally read the sentence as "Dry glue is a method of adhesion based upon the naturally occurring adaptations of geckos feet and even glass walls." By removing the oxford comma "and even glass walls" only applies to the phrase "climbing sheer surfaces". A native English speaker might be unlikely to get confused, but to others, the sentence can easily be read to mean that dry glue is based on the adhesion properties of glass walls. Glass is not an adhesive. Removing the comma makes the sentence more clear and less ambiguous. As a bonus, by removing the oxford comma and swapping which to that, it allows us to remove the first comma too. The entire sentence can be constructed with no commas. Yay!

Then I noticed "adaptations of the feet of geckos which allow them to." 10 word, 3 prepositions, 3 nouns, 2 pronouns, 1 article, and 1 verb. It creates all sorts of odd possible interpretations. Does "them" refer to the geckos feet or adaptations themselves? Is there a difference? Sort of. I tried to reconstruct the phrase to remove any ambiguous interpretations. Thus, "adaptations of the feet of geckos that allow them to" became "foot adaptations that allow geckos to". The change removes one of two pronouns and two of three prepositions completely. In my opinion, the changes create a sentence with only one interpretation. The phrase now has 3 nouns, 1 pronoun, 1 verb, and 1 preposition, and it definitively makes sense. Much better, right?

Since you are the person who initially wrote the sentence, I defer judgement to you. Do you think, after hearing why I changed the sentence, it is more, or less, clear? I really didn't want to stick around, but enough people politely said to give it a try. I figured I would listen to the experts for once. I made a small edit on an unrelated page. The editor I had a conflict with is now following me around and reverted the changes I made, on completely unrelated pages. The only reason I even found the page was because of your userpage. I don't like having every decision I make undermined and undone, especially as some part of an ill conceived revenge plan. If this keeps happening, there is no way I can keep contributing. Who in their right mind has enough time to continually justify even the most mundane actions? There is no question in my mind the revert occurred as a prejudice against me, because in my eyes the change is absolutely an improvement. Is his second guessing of everything I do just a way to derive pleasure from torturing me? Is creating a new account to escape stalking the best course of action? I can't even reintroduce my improvements without starting an edit war. No dialogue between us has been very constructive. Both of us are at fault for that one. Clearly he didn't put as much thought into the sentence as I did because ALL my changes were reverted, sans two links he put back. At the very least the oxford comma should be removed, and which changed to that. But, my removal of the other comma, a pronoun and prepositions, is what I see as an obvious improvement. "Of the feet of geckos which" has 2 prepositions and a pronoun in six words and a third preposition three words later. It has 2 pronouns in three words (which allow them.) Doing those kinds of things make sentences hard to read. It causes the reader to have to go back and read the sentence a second time. Back when I was a kid we were taught to cut the clutter. Reduce sentences to their basic elements. I will admit, maybe I overlinked one word, feet. That seems like a judgement call. If we are talking about the evolution of gecko feet, I would think a link to feet is handy. I still think I was right to link it, but if someone else didn't, I would have no problem with the link being reverted. I even put what I thought were really good explanations in the comment box describing why I made the changes. Is this guy going to follow me around wikipedia and revert everything I do. Is participating anywhere at all futile? Why bother? My entire reason for treating this as a cup half empty situation was because no matter how small of a chance you make, it gets reverted and you have to write a paragraph justifying your thoughts. And when you do justify your thoughts, they fall on deaf ears because people prefer Newspeak to actual communication. We are becoming a place where anything more than a sentence or two is glossed over and ignored. I am more than glad to fix oddly constructed sentences here and there, but I don't want to constantly justify every little comma and pronoun change. I can't believe I just wrote this much about a 29 word sentence. Normally I would put this on the talk page, but a) you wrote the sentence, asking for your thoughts directly is best b) Rob self admittedly wont read walls of text anyway and c) it's more of an issue with the aforementioned user than the constituent construction itself. If you think any of my improvements are justified would you look into reinstating some or all of them? Or at least us my observations to construct a more coherent sentence? This is way above me caring about gecko feet. I just want to be left alone to edit in peace. (If you can't tell, my stream of consciousness probably violates all the editing tips I suggest. You can't win them all.) Xkcdreader (talk) 14:09, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

• You ever come across a guy called Victor Borge? He did a wonderful sketch which consisted of repeating the words "Ethel called. She has got the tickets to John's concert on Saturday" with the emphasis on a different word each time, followed by an amusing gloss on what the speaker actually meant. For example, Ethel called.... was glossed with "Ethel called. Why did Ethel call. Does my son John not want to speak to his mother any more" And Ethel called .... was glossed with "Ethel called. She called. On the telephone. You'd think she could spare the time to come talk to her mother in person, but no." And so on.

• Anyway, I saw your original edit, and I thought it was a great improvement (although I do think Ent's is better now I see it). I didn't see the other chap's revert - from his edit summary, I think he thought the worst of you, then revised his opinion when he saw what you've posted here. I do think he will be less suspicious in future. You're certainly welcome to improve the English in any article I've edited. I hope you found the talkpage discussion which followed you posting here more in line with the ideal as well.Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:11, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

• You lost me with the sketch. What does glossed me? "victor børge ethel" brings me nothing useful on google? To change the subject a little.. I typed some thoughts to you earlier in the day, and figured they might register with you specifically. Feel free to not read any of it............... I found your User:Elen_of_the_Roads/On_editing_in_a_collaborative_project essay enlightening. You are a very smart person. A lot of problems do come from cultural differences and interpreting other peoples comments through our own internal lenses. What one person intends as genuine can be perceived as snarky and disingenuous by the other party. When the whole situation began I though my minor contribution should have been the least controversial thing since sliced bread. The context of the situation I had entered, failed to register. I now see everyone was already on edge and probably pissed off about the comic. They didn't want the attention. I didn't understand why I was being met with such forceful rejection. Being rejected just made me try harder and harder until it snowballed into mania. I'm not saying I'm not to blame. I am. I kept getting pushed ever so slowly towards the edge. I wanted to keep screaming "it's him not me" repeatedly, but did not, knowing full well it would make the situation worse. In the resulting chaos I mistakenly vilified Scjessey. That was bad because it gave me an enemy I didn't need. He was blocking everything I was proposing, but he had legitimate concerns. He even called me out on it, saying I was being stupid for painting him as the bad guy, and I didn't listen. As the brick wall I was fighting got stronger and more adamant I started punching harder. I was being misrepresented on the talk page. I was being misrepresented in the incident report. (Again, perspective.) I didn't understand the incident report wasn't a court and tried to defend my self. Baaad idea. That didn't help. I don't get how they expect new people to understand what all these similarly named things are. I got blocked and tried to cool down, but I kept getting pushed. When an adult sits around harassing a kid over and over until the kid commits suicide, the adult can get charged for homicide. But in American Football, it is always the person reciprocating who gets a flag thrown. It's the punch in retaliation that gets you in trouble. Misplaced Pages is more like football than murder. It's the rebuttal that gets you in trouble. What ticked me off to no end is how I end up being the one indefinitely banned from discussing Star Trek, but no one else involved. Yea, I was increasingly argumentative. That didn't mean that everything I said needed to be addressed. The smart thing to do would have been ignore me. The elders should have known better and be held to a higher standard. In fact, an admin even told him to "stop rising to it." The fact that established editors get the benefit of the doubt, and newbies get the doubt is what makes this place inaccessible to a fresher generation of users. (Further complicating the issue is the inability to quickly denote an authority figure. SarekOfVulcan warned me and I completely ignored him because I had no idea who he was or that he was an admin.) It seems like any enforcement of civility and disruption only addresses the problem itself, and not its root causes. It's like treating AIDS with painkillers instead of antiretroviral drugs. As I keep reading User:Elen_of_the_Roads/On_editing_in_a_collaborative_project, it sounds like your worldviews match up with mine. I just got to the sentence that reads "To my mind, and this is a personal opinion, bullying and browbeating an editor away from a topic is the issue we ought to be dealing with. Good editors will leave a war zone - how often have we heard it said 'I stopped editing there because of X's attitude.' " This is exactly why Misplaced Pages loses otherwise willing participants. "Reverting every edit in article space, rubbishing or ignored everything someone says, ignored any consensus that forms around them, jumping on any and everything (however little) said against their edit by someone else, regardless of the overall opinion of other editors, is as damaging to the project as the type of edit that will get you a civility block, but it is much harder to get it dealt with." I was guilty of a lot of that too. Now, I just keep coming back to "The principle Ignorantia juris non excusat (Latin for: "ignorance of the law does not excuse") is incompatible with the guidelines of "do not bite" and "assume good faith"." I was the one who didn't know better. I want to lash out and proclaim "it's not fair" but no one was interested in listening anymore. I wish your essay had been published somewhere more visible before I got involved in this mess. I also wish the inclusion of slightly controversial material, thereby allowing a wide audience of non-wikipedia-regulars to weigh its worth, was the status quo instead of gridlock. Everything about the process seems so backwards. By playing it safe, and doing nothing, everybody loses and emotions stay tense. It creates a destructive, not productive, work environment. The one thing I disagree with in your essay is " Having said that, if I ask someone to modify an aggressive approach, I expect them to stop, and I think one key thing in improving the editing atmosphere would be the approach to enforcement." I think empathy instead of authority is the best way to calm people down. Telling a person who is caught up in the heat of the moment to chill (or worse, take a chill pill) almost always makes things worse. When you get told to chill out, what does it make you want to do? Xkcdreader (talk) 01:44, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

No, I can't find a video of the sketch either. Perhaps I'm remembering the names wrong or something. I only mentioned it because it rather reminded me of him, the way you (and others) were deconstructing to death this sentence about gecko feet. I'm glad you found my essay helpful. I'm convinced that a lot of disputes are down to mismatched expectations of what should happen, rather than one of the participants being Dr. Evil. Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:29, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Stigmergic Accumulation - the process of building upon existing work bit by bit. I learned that phrase from the Misplaced Pages Signpost: What if the Misplaced Pages "revolution" was actually a reversion? section on the 4th. I still content "browbeating an editor away from a topic is the issue" coupled with a fresh bloods eager desire not to be subdued by the loudest objectors, but that point is moot. My drive to succeed was classic cobra effect. The Robust Public Debate Principle (which feeds back into the Marketplace of Ideas) of free speech champion Justice William Brennan (who also happened to wrote the Majority for the landmark New York Times Co. v. Sullivan case) applies -- The robust debate principle recognizes that sometimes in a crowd of speakers it is necessary to turn down the volume of certain loud and clamorous speakers in order to give others a chance to speak. Even the most influential Justice of the 20th century, a defender of free speech, understood that sometime free speech means restricting speech. Did you know moot means nearly the opposite of moot? How could you possibly know which one I mean? The "issue that is open for debate" vs "the issue that has been rendered irrelevant." Xkcdreader (talk) 17:15, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

• xkcd, it doesn't matter whether I'm an "authority figure" or not. When someone warns you that your editing is becoming disruptive, that's the time to sit back and say "ok, what am I doing, and what have the results of this kind of editing been in the past?". --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:34, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

ok. You have to understand that when someone who opposes my contribution asks me to stop, it sounds remarkably like someone trying to get me to give up so they win. It's a matter of perspective. The tone you were using with me was not exactly welcoming. "What part of WP:SUBJECT isn't sinking in here? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:03, 2 February 2013 (UTC)" "And that last major addition of yours, clearly against consensus, crossed the line. If you continue to waste other editors' time on this subject, I will be requesting a block on the administrators' noticeboard. Switch topics for a while, edit some other articles (preferably not Trek-related), and maybe come back to the topic later. Much later. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:41, 5 February 2013 (UTC)" From my perspective you were actively trying to prevent my case from being heard. The "sinking in" and "much much later" quips were kind of mean. Why would YOU take advice from someone who is insulting and belittling you? The feedback I gathered after every draft shaped the proposal. I found it insulting that you would call collaborative editing a waste of time. Xkcdreader (talk) 17:52, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

I can see both sides here. Yes, I agree that the way things were put to you were more likely to make you mad than to make you understand. But at the same time, the way you kept on going at it was more likely to make everyone else mad than to persuade them to your point of view. In those situations, a sanction of some kind for the person who has no or less Misplaced Pages policy in their arguments is always a potential outcome, so there is an extent to which the other parties were intending a generic warning that persistence will likely cause the hammer to fall, rather than a direct threat that they wanted to silence you. So the lesson for someone like Sarek might be to try other phrasing, to see if that has a better uptake. And the lesson for you might be that if a lot of people are giving you the same message, it might be worth trying to unpick their beef with them, rather than ploughing on regardless. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:21, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

What does this sentence mean? "A sanction of some kind for the person who has no or less Misplaced Pages policy in their arguments is always a potential outcome." I got sanctioned for talking too much. Xkcdreader (talk) 18:26, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Precisely - talking too much with no wikipedia policy in your arguments, or less wikipedia policy than your opponents in your arguments is frequently seen as "tendentious editing" and tends to get you a sanction. Whereas determinedly resisting attempts to insert a WP:BLP violation, or a copyright violation, where you have policy clearly on your site, gets you plaudits. Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:32, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I still maintain they were incorrectly applying policies with ulterior motives in play. Most of my comments addressed policy criticisms head on. Pfhorrest shared a similar sentiment and said "the arguments being provided against it look like they are clamoring for anything to throw just to shut down the matter of title-related issues here." Betty Logan said to open an RFC to see if their argument held water. Then I confused the Incident Report for a court and aired my opinions of Rob, thus earning a ban. So now I can't file an RFC and we will never know who was right. I'm still confident a RFC would have vindicated me. The conversation reduced itself to Nuh uh. Uh huh. I think to even call it a conversation is a stretch. I could show you the exact sentence that was causing all the fuss, and maybe you could explain to me if I have a warped interpretation of WP:SUBJECT. Xkcdreader (talk) 23:05, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

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--Free Wales Now! what did I screw up?  15:51, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 07:25, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Owning up....

Hi Elen, You were right the first time, HackneyHound was an account I created many moons ago. And yes it was operated on a vodafone network. Gravyring was not a sock of mine but my housemate, who I roped in, not sure if thats meat puppetry as we shared a bathroom at the time. So all of the sock cases against Hackneyhound are all different users, potentially innocent or just those using their phone or 3g tablet to avoid a block as I did. But Hackneyhound, I have not used since blocking so any of those blocked related to my account should be revised maybe.Factocop (talk) 11:43, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

And we are supposed to believe you, because...you say so? "I have never ever used another account, ever.", - and again - 7 month after (as you now say) creating Hackneyhound? RashersTierney (talk) 13:33, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Just so were clear, Rashers is struggling with the time between the edits. First 2 Factocop edits are 17months before Hackneyhound creation, not 7 months after as Rashers has stated. Trying to twist facts....Factocop (talk) 15:45, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Factocop is struggling with the English language. Your brazen denials of having used other accounts came 7 months after you say you registered Hackneyhound. One more for the pot. RashersTierney (talk) 16:28, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Rashers, I'm confused, you have now presented 3 diffs from 2010. Hackneyhound was created in 2012. What are you on about?Factocop (talk) 16:35, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

My mistake. I guess I was confused by the fact that you were blocked for socking, then unblocked for not socking and now you confess to socking, but it's somehow OK. RashersTierney (talk) 16:49, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

I just didnt appreciate you twisting facts. I've explained a ton of times but Factocop was indef. blocked initially I think for being CU confirmed as The Maiden City. Factocop was my first account. When I received the indef. block I felt an injustice and starting socking, only because I should never have been blocked in the first place. as a sock I continued in the same vain as before, I was quickly found out and was barely able to edit with constantly being getting blocked. I was then able to present evidence to ShellKinney that Factocop was my 1st account and that TMC was not me. So I was unblocked, but then blocked for close to 2 years because I had edited/socked in the interim. Scoking doesnt pay as no one takes you seriously. At least now as single user Factocop I can edit again, but I was getting fed up with every user in troubles related pages being linked to me just because we had a shared pov, which is not uncommon in this topic on both sides. And I'm pretty sure I was not the only user socking as so many accounts in the troubles topics seem to exist purely to support each others edits. Factocop (talk) 16:59, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Factocop account was my first account. Just being honest here, didnt have to be, as it was no one has mentioned me in relation to HackneyHound in a long time. Just thought given the number of people who have been accused of being my old hackneyhound account, didnt think it was fair to them, thats all. My hackneyhound account seems to be the go to account when people are editing at any british isles/troubles related pages.Factocop (talk) 14:25, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Well it clears up one mystery - a lot of people thought Hackneyhound was you. But I'm not inclined to think that there are legions of editors on that Vodaphone range, all with your exact pov and way of expressing it. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:39, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure how the vodafone ip address operates over a 3g network but I just assumed that carnival_fred(of the top of my head) was maybe one of them as he was pretty strongly viewed. All I can do is confirm that I was the only HackneyHound account and there is no other account associated with. Perhaps If you want I should email arbcom with my previous accounts if you wish....or post here, though I can't remember all my accounts so may need help with that.Factocop (talk) 14:55, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

To qoute you above, with emphisis bud, "All I can do is confirm that I was the only HackneyHound" and then contradict it with "If you want I should email arbcom with my previous accounts". So which version is it? Only Factocop and HackneyHound? Or are there previous? Or maybe sleepers? Which ever way, one of the terms of your unblock was edit only while logged into Factocop, no IP editing and no socking, as you have admitted to being HackneyHound and there is a clear checkuser for a sock of his, I would say that its not looking good at the moment. Murry1975 (talk) 15:09, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Factocop was my first account! So there were no previous accounts before that. I created hackneyhound account while factocop was blocked. I'm just saying all of the account linked to HackneyHound are not me. Aside from this Murry, I am here to discuss with Elen. I havent broken any of my terms of unblock, if I had, I would not be owning up to this now. Just tired of seeing old blocked accounts being linked to every anon ip. without any real proof for the most part.Factocop (talk) 15:25, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Hmmmmm.... so here's a simple question. Did you ever have a run-in with me on any British Isles related stuff? And if so, what account? --HighKing (talk) 15:45, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

So lets have your other accounts. RashersTierney (talk) 15:47, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

@HK, don't think so. My main focus was troubles esque such as Londonderry, City of Derry Airport, Giants Causeway, Carlingford Lough etc.

I have nothing to gain from this and I have not breached my sanctions, just so were clear Other accounts not in timely order: HackneyHound Afterlife10 NI4Life Homebirdni CodSa DameEdnaUK AttackZack (I'm a saved by the bell fan) Pilgrimsquest

...a few more but can't remember off top of my head.Factocop (talk) 15:58, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Take your time. It's important, if we are to get to the bottom of this. RashersTierney (talk) 16:59, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Thats all I can remember, but feel free to point out any...Factocop (talk) 17:08, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Afterlife10? Murry1975 (talk) 16:04, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

User:LevenBoy? --HighKing (talk) 18:42, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

• I've looked at a lot of the history, perhaps CU did mess up with the original sock, perhaps it didn't. Regardless, there's never an excuse to start a socking spree, which you've admitted to here. Indef block for socking anyone? Lukeno94 (talk) 19:25, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
  • No. But we need to know the other accounts, all of them. Enough time has been wasted at SPIs because Factocop didn't 'fess up before. How his block was lifted without 'full disclosure', I've no idea. RashersTierney (talk) 19:59, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

@highking, no not levenboy. Don't think we've collaborated on anything either. @Luke, youre late to the party. I already served 2 yrs for socking and was allowed to edit under sanctions.Factocop (talk) 19:32, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Well no, you didn't. You socked at least as recently as a year ago, by your own admission. RashersTierney (talk) 21:04, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

'well no, you didnt' what? I have been open about my past accounts when I didnt have to be. And with the law of averages, I'm pretty sure you Rashers have committed a sin or two. Maybe next time you disagree with a user, don't get involved in their SPI case, just to discredit their argument or remove them altogether. You recently leapt to the defence of HK at ANI. Some would say that is suspicious....anyway this isnt about you. I've admitted all my accounts. thats more than enough.Factocop (talk) 23:21, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Well no you haven't been entirely honest. If your implication is that I have also used sock puppets, then you are entirely wrong. Not everyone with an opinion (on whatever) feels the need. RashersTierney (talk) 23:50, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

if you say so. i think we are done.Factocop (talk) 23:54, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

No, you still have to disclose all your past accounts. Your failure to do so up till now has screwed up several SPIs. Make good or don't expect a warm community embrace. RashersTierney (talk) 00:11, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I have disclosed all my past accounts.Factocop (talk) 00:20, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Are you are absolutely certain...RashersTierney (talk) 00:30, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

as sure as i can be, though the important thing is that i only have one account now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factocop (talk • contribs) 00:33, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

And that's "owning up"? Your problem, you fix it! RashersTierney (talk) 00:46, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

People, take some advice from an old Wikipedian - NEVER trust a sock-master & keep all of his suspected socks blocked. GoodDay (talk) 03:30, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

This stuff about the housemate being "roped in" with the shared bathroom - seriously? Hackneyhound completely denied being even linked to Gravyring at all, and now Factocop comes in and clears the air? Lies beget more lies - do not trust those who lie. Y'all are getting jerked around. Doc talk 07:49, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

• Hence my call for an indef. Lukeno94 (talk) 09:41, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Rasher's diff above seals it for me. Factocop is a proven sockmaster - and a proven liar. How they are still here is amazing. I don't trust this user at all, or his claims about who he is or is not. Ridiculous. Doc talk 09:50, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I have explained that the diffs were a mistake on my part. Just don't want opinion swayed on that point alone. That is not to say that all is fine and dandy and Factocop doesn't have some serious confidence building to do. The onus is on him. RashersTierney (talk) 10:01, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Well I think I have certainly learned not to edit war, but I do now tend to discuss the hell out of things. But I say this, any user who is falsely accused of socking and then is indef blocked would more than likely sock aswell. Anyone who says they wouldnt is a liar. Trust me. Nothing more frustrating than being blocked for an offence you didnt commit. Socking isnt right but at the time I did know the appeal system or another way to continue editing other than socking. I was released from my block by arbcom, despite my socking history so I don't see why I should be blocked again as I am still editing under sanctions and for the most part sticking to them to the best I can. But I can imagine alot of the accounts that were originally blocked for being linked to hackneyhound in the first spi have probably socked because they have been falsely accused.Factocop (talk) 10:13, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

By your own admission above you edited as Afterlife10. People should ponder User talk:Afterlife10 to get a flavour of how your level of trust on the project is to be judged. How can you expect anything you say to be taken at face value? RashersTierney (talk) 11:47, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

At this point I can't say anymore. As afterlife10 I was blocked for socking as Factocop. True. All you have shown is that when I was Afterlife I tried everything I could do continue editing. You would do the same. Though some of my comments then seemed to link HighKing and NorthernCounties. I probably raised an SPI but they were never looked into as I was subsequently blocked for being a sock, alas. Look, you don't have to trust me if you don't want to, and given your edit history we obviously have a different POV so you are never likely to trust me or my motives anyway.Factocop (talk) 12:11, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't distrust you because of your POV. I distrust you because your idea of 'truth' is whatever seems convenient to you at a given time. RashersTierney (talk) 12:16, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

What were all the CU results for the confirmed Hackneyhound socks based on? Dynamic Vodaphone IPs? Doc talk 10:23, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, same Vodaphone range, apparently same or similar device (but then it probably would be as it's a mobile range). Those IPs rotate every 24hrs or so. That and the marked similarities in editing. Occams Razor suggests that if it was Factocop the first time, it's Factocop all the other times. CU could never prove it, because Factocop does most of his editing apparently while at work (or apparently on a work VPN). Elen of the Roads (talk) 12:33, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

• If I got an indef block I felt was completely incorrect, I would first coherently and accurately (as well as I could) state my case, then if that didn't work, probably get very annoyed and storm off. I would not, however, create a whole truckload of socks to carry on editing. That's not a smart idea at all. I also wouldn't constantly tell different stories at different times - you seem to be making several different claims here, and elsewhere (pages and time wise). Lukeno94 (talk) 20:14, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Well Luke, He who has never sinned may cast the first stone...given your interest here, I can only assume that your behaviour and contrubution on wikipedia must be flawless. Yesterday you made 23 edits spread across the entire day. If you were ever blocked, I would guess that you would struggle to kick the habit that is wikipedia. To say you would simply walk away from wikipedia is pure bu((ock$. Wise up!Factocop (talk) 11:16, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

• Considering I'm sensible enough NOT to break any rules, then it wouldn't be an issue. I take a very dim view of sockpuppetry, hence my "interest here". 1 sock, OK, but as many as you've had? Also, I made 23 edits yesterday, yes - but about 10 to one article (at least) Lukeno94 (talk) 12:00, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm just saying its a hard habit to kick, and I just don't think you would stop editing if blocked. Thats all I say on the matter.Factocop (talk) 12:21, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

So you will be socking again the next time you're blocked? You appear to be saying socking is 'wrong' but it is 'reasonable', if you think the block is wrong. RashersTierney (talk) 12:53, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

No, because I don't intend on getting blocked again, but if I did get blocked, I am far more aware of the appeals process.I'm done now. Can't say anything more.Factocop (talk) 17:20, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

I am just curious why you are doing it now. As I have interacted with your socks and various IP's over the last year, and since your unblock you, I am curious why now? AGF and all that, but I am still curious. Why would someone who has socked extensively (and heavily denied it) and been blocked appeal to Arbcom, get back on here and then confess? Murry1975 (talk) 17:51, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm more concerned with the shit stirring back at Talk:Derry, labelling everyone as "Nationalists", and then the serial reverting of my edits which were made in line with IMOS. As he well knows. This is exactly the behaviour that got him banned in the first place, resulting in his sock abuse. This was followed by a weak canvassing attempt to ask at another users page if the original edits were OK (of course, asked after he'd already reverted 9 articles). Based on this behaviour and his history, I see no reason why the community believes he might be a net asset to the project. --HighKing (talk) 19:14, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

@HighKing, those edits seem more in line with the IP range you have qouted at the SPI than other edits he has made recently. Again another curious piece of this puzzle. Murry1975 (talk) 19:27, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Seriously Murry, any fool can read the ANI where Highking was recently accused by sock IP of removing 'British Isles' term. I checked Highkings edits, using the 'user contribution' tool and found that this does seem to be true. Highking is going page to page applying his version of IMOS. Here are 8 edits alone where he has replaced Republic of Ireland with Ireland despite ] being used in the body of the text...,

, , , , , , .Factocop (talk) 10:13, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

I have to agree, especially given that Factocop (above) says he has never had a run in with me previously, and suddenly he's stalking my edits like that Voda IP editor - which we already know he also uses.... --HighKing (talk) 19:41, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Like I said, I am only using one account - Factocop so stop throwing socking slurs at me.10:13, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Elen, can you look at this new issue. Rashers and Highking seem to be in cahoots , this edit goes against IMOS. How is it that in an article where Northern Ireland is mention 21 times, is it correct to use Ireland. Complete joke.Factocop (talk) 10:19, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

I gave my explanation at the IMOS TP, which has been removed without explanation by Factocop. Sysop attention is long overdue here. RashersTierney (talk) 10:39, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

I removed your post as I don't think it had any relation to the content of WP:IMOS. so it was me who 'misinterpreted' IMOS?! ok gotcha. Thanks Rashers, you really are a bastion of wikipedia. So just so were clear, When NI is mentioned 21 times in a body of text, it is IMOS to use Ireland?okkie dokkie mr boss man, sir.Factocop (talk) 11:06, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

• Can't Factocop just be indeffed already? They're lying about not socking, they're violating several other rules, and just generally showing a WP:NOTHERE type of attitude. Lukeno94 (talk) 13:01, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

lying about not socking? have you read this thread at all? violating several other rules? which ones?Factocop (talk) 11:54, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

• Is User:DeFacto you? It would be a remarkable coincidence for two prolific sockpuppeters to be unrelated with such similar names and Vodafone IPs that have been named in both Hackneyhound and DeFacto SPIs... and I don't believe in coincidences. I know you've been pulled up for different issues, but DeFacto's edits have also centered around MOS and British things, which seems oddly familiar. Lukeno94 (talk) 11:38, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

def. not me. I have listed all of my past accounts already. Factocop (talk) 11:54, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Once a sock-master, always a sockmaster. You'll never be trusted by the community again. GoodDay (talk) 20:52, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages can't really be considered a community with so much POV pushing. really?............and again all of the accounts listed above are ALL the accounts I have held EVER. So Highking, please refrain from linking me to further accounts as you have here . The witch hunt is over.Factocop (talk) 23:31, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

• • It certainly is over. After lengthy consideration and some further checking, I have indefblocked Factocop on the simple basis that Hackneyhound is still socking, and he has admitted to being Hackneyhound. He also seems to be madly reverting, which I'm sure is in breach of his unblock conditions also. Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:27, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
    • Well done Elen, wish I hadn't been goaded into wasting time on exchanges with this individual. Brocach (talk) 00:40, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

• I'm convinced DeFacto is also Factocop, being disruptive in similar but slightly different areas, but there's no real evidence I have to prove this, other than cynicism and a gut feeling, so there's not much I can do about it. Lukeno94 (talk) 15:08, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Whether they are or not, this is exactly the harm that socking causes to the project; it creates an atmosphere of distrust which undermines collaboration. Ellen is to be commended for patience and decisiveness on this long-term problem. RashersTierney (talk) 21:32, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 18:19, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Possible sockpuppetry of Bull-Doser

It appears that Bull-Doser has created today a new account that inserted the same content that got him blocked in October. .

Right now, I'm about to leave the house out and don't have time to fill SPI. I'll deal with that later. But in the mean time, you can just have a quick look at it even if you decide to not take actions. Bye. Farine (talk) 20:55, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Give him another couple of edits. This guy seems more able to string two sentences together, and is talking about a change in early 2013 whereas Bull-Doser was making the change back in June 2012. Do you want to try just asking him if he has a source for that, and seeing how he answers? --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:29, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

whereas Bull-Doser was making the change back in June 2012. You mean in October 2012. To be honest, I already know it is Bull-Doser just by the way he writes coupled with the timing this account was created (right after a community ban proposal and some concern from Bull-Doser on his talkpage regarding this). But sure, I'll give him more edits. Thanks. Farine (talk) 06:17, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Nah, I've found edits in June changing the station output to Hot Adult Rock (or whatever). Guy is nothing if not persistent. I have restored an earlier version and left a note - let's see what he does. Also, let me know if any other favourite topics suddenly pop up an editor from nowhere. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:21, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

I just noticed that Scotmail marked its biggest contribution as a minor edit. Bull-Doser is the only user I know that randomly marks as minor edits that aren't even minor.. It seems that Bull-Doser has taken a break from the Wikimedia Foundation because neither the Scotmail acount here nor his Bull-Doser account on Commons have been used in recent days. I agree with you that there's no neccessity to take actions against Scotmail if he doesn't make more edits than those 3 edits, although this situation could always be brought to the attention of the new reviewing administrator should Bull-Doser decide to make a new unblock request. Farine (talk) 02:11, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, I felt the lack of response was somewhat telling, so I ran a usercheck. The tool hasn't 100% nailed it, but it's pretty close. I'm happy to block Scotmail as a sock of Bull-Doser, and I'll make a note on Bull-Doser's SPI record.

Who killed Aaron Schwartz (and why)?

At Talk:Aaron Schwartz (Canadian actor):

1 Odd

“Check out this diff. I wonder when the article for this Aaron Schwartz was deleted, and why? David in DC (talk) 22:45, 21 February 2013 (UTC)”

Is there a way to find out? --Dervorguilla (talk) 04:41, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Very odd. I cannot find a trace of a deleted article with that name. I can only think that your IP created a redlink in that edit. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:56, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Proof positive

This should prove that GabeMc is getting harrassed. Will this give him full rights to rid WP of all content dispute editors against him forever?. I am providing the means for him to accompish this, right here.

You are a bitch but we still love you!

BTW: When that POS WER section of domineering crap learns that banning everybody will stop editors from quitting they will have learnt something. Dennis should know better. Is running WP into the ground by design or happenstance? Most of its members have the attitude.

Have a good one!! 200.79.224.72 (talk) 22:22, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Editor review/George Ho

I created a request of editor review on me. Just to let you know. --George Ho (talk) 23:13, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Did you get it?

I sent you an e-mail last week ... did you ever get it? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 00:28, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and I thought I replied as well...let me go look. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:47, 28 February 2013 (UTC) <----sent you a reply on same day. Have re-sent it. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:53, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Odd ... still not coming through. Are you in my spam filter? LOL Ah, I found out why - that one, rare word was one that I added to my spam filter - could you re-send once more, as I have removed it (sorry!) (✉→BWilkins←✎) 22:01, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Blocked proxy - or is it?

Hi Elen, just a quick heads-up to let you know that I've listed IP 168.94.245.6 at WP:OPP, since they're contesting the proxyblock you actioned in November. Cheers, Yunshui 雲‍水 08:06, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

And the result is... ask Elen. So I'm back here again; it seems that the IP doesn't show up as a proxy to Sailsbystars, but since the block is a bit unorthodox, he suggests I double-check with you for extenuating circumstances. Could you drop me a line when you've got a minute and let me know if there's any non-obvious reason for keeping the block in place? Cheers, Yunshui 雲‍水 08:31, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

I do know why I blocked it - IP 168.94.245.8 was used by one of the MMA sockers (see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/BStudent0) and 245.6 must have shown up somewhere. I cannot recall why I thought it was a proxy though, it looks more like someone editing on the company dime. As long as your editor doesn't want to edit MMA articles, it should be OK to unblock. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:42, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Cool; I'll take that on board. I think an unblock is reasonable at this point, but I'll add a caveat about the MMA thing. Yunshui 雲‍水 22:54, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 04:54, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

WikiCup 2013 February newsletter

Round 1 is now over. The top 64 scorers have progressed to round 2, where they have been randomly split into eight pools of eight. At the end of April, the top two from each pool, as well as the 16 highest scorers from those remaining, will progress to round 3. Commiserations to those eliminated; if you're interested in still being involved in the WikiCup, able and willing reviewers will always be needed, and if you're interested in getting involved with other collaborative projects, take a look at the WikiWomen's Month discussed below.

Round 1 saw 21 competitors with over 100 points, which is fantastic; that suggests that this year's competition is going to be highly competative. Our lower scores indicate this, too: A score of 19 was required to reach round 2, which was significantly higher than the 11 points required in 2012 and 8 points required in 2011. The score needed to reach round 3 will be higher, and may depend on pool groupings. In 2011, 41 points secured a round 3 place, while in 2012, 65 was needed. Our top three scorers in round 1 were:

1. Sturmvogel_66 (submissions), primarily for an array of warship GAs.
2. Miyagawa (submissions), primarily for an array of did you knows and good articles, some of which were awarded bonus points.
3. Casliber (submissions), due in no small part to Canis Minor, a featured article awarded a total of 340 points. A joint submission with Keilana (submissions), this is the highest scoring single article yet submitted in this year's competition.

Other contributors of note include:

• Sven Manguard (submissions), whose Portal:Massachusetts is the first featured portal this year. The featured portal process is one of the less well-known featured processes, and featured portals have traditionally had little impact on WikiCup scores.
• Sasata (submissions), whose Mycena aurantiomarginata was the first featured article this year.
• Muboshgu (submissions) and Wizardman (submissions), who both claimed points for articles in the Major League Baseball tie-breakers topic, the first topic points in the competition.
• Toa Nidhiki05 (submissions), who claimed for the first full good topic with the Casting Crowns studio albums topic.

Featured topics have still played no part in this year's competition, but once again, a curious contribution has been offered by The C of E (submissions): did you know that there is a Shit Brook in Shropshire? With April Fools' Day during the next round, there will probably be a good chance of more unusual articles...

March sees the WikiWomen's History Month, a series of collaborative efforts to aid the women's history WikiProject to coincide with Women's History Month and International Women's Day. A number of WikiCup participants have already started to take part. The project has a to-do list of articles needing work on the topic of women's history. Those interested in helping out with the project can find articles in need of attention there, or, alternatively, add articles to the list. Those interested in collaborating on articles on women's history are also welcome to use the WikiCup talk page to find others willing to lend a helping hand. Another collaboration currently running is an an effort from WikiCup participants to coordinate a number of Easter-themed did you know articles. Contributions are welcome!

A few final administrative issues. From now on, submission pages will need only a link to the article and a link to the nomination page, or, in the case of good article reviews, a link to the review only. See your submissions' page for details. This will hopefully make updating submission pages a little less tedious. If you are concerned that your nomination—whether it is at good article candidates, a featured process, or anywhere else—will not receive the necessary reviews, please list it on Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Reviews. Questions are welcome on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiCup, and the judges are reachable on their talk pages or by email. Good luck! If you wish to start or stop receiving this newsletter, please feel free to add or remove yourself from Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/Newsletter/Send. J Milburn (talk • email) and The ed17 (talk • email) J Milburn (talk) 01:28, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Mentioned

This thread on your Meta talk page from November, 2012 was mentioned. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 18:33, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

(But it had little enough to do with you.) Bishonen | talk 19:07, 1 March 2013 (UTC).

Why is the other editor guilty of editwarring when GabeMc made one more revert?

Again, absolutely nothing will be done against this tenditious editor!]

It appears donating money to WP will allow an editor unlimited rights above everybody else like a paid for, God mode.

How far will WP go to support itself, in its failing venture, even if it means losing ALL it's up and coming new editors due to unfair, nonsensical, disciplinary practices?

Block me. IP's are cheap and ruining WP anyway (sarc). Soon only IPs will edit here.

RipWikipedia? No 200.79.224.72 (talk) 22:47, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Has Jhawkinson contributed to Swartz article as both editor and primary source?

A Daily Mail Online article, “Gunman Hoax That Forced MIT to Go On Lockdown Was REVENGE for Suicide of Reddit Co-Founder Aaron Swartz,” is cited as a secondary source at Aaron Swartz: Attacks, hacks and hoaxes.

Another reported that … the first public alert did not go out until 8:47am; ‘Not so timely,’ he observed.

The Mail article gives the reporting person’s name: “John Hawkinson.”

Another Twitter user John Hawkinson wrote that … the first public alert did not go out until 8.47am.  ‘Not so timely,’ he wrote.

A User:Jhawkinson is listed as a frequent contributor to the Swartz article in WP.

487 edits on article: Aaron_Swartz.  Frequent users: Dervorguilla; David in DC; …; Jhawkinson; …

Are Jhawkinson and John Hawkinson the same person? --Dervorguilla (talk) 07:16, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Could you, umm, clarify your thinking, regarding your raising of this issue? -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 09:15, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

User A and user B contribute frequently to article C.  A quotes B in C.  Should the quote stay or go? --Dervorguilla (talk) 00:04, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

That would be a content dispute, right? Where do you think the first place to discuss it is? Where do you think the second place is? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:07, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

The first place:  Talk page (see Talk:Aaron_Swartz#Was_MIT_incident_a_hack_or_just_a_hoax.3F).

The second place:  Don’t know.  New at this.

Also, there could be more than just a content dispute going on.

I hope she's incorrect.  Because if she is, outing an editor calls for a ban.

Maybe he meant to say, “Because if she isn’t …”? --Dervorguilla (talk) 01:33, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Double negatives. Don't you not unhate them? I know I don't ... or something. DBaK (talk) 08:35, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Happy ending. --Dervorguilla (talk) 01:05, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Please (urgently) check your e-mail

Hi Elen. Hope you're well. Are you still subscribed to Oversight-l? If so, please urgently search your inbox for messages with the subject line beginning . The first message was sent on 2 March, and at the time of my writing this the newest message in the thread was also sent later on 2 March. All that's needed from you is one signature on the OTRS wiki, and the sooner the better. If you aren't subscribed to Oversight-l, please e-mail ArbCom or one of the more active oversighters (Beeblebrox or Fluffernutter might be a good choice) to find out what we need you to do. Thanks very much, AGK 20:57, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks AGK. I'd seen this a when it first came up, didn't deal with it immediately and then haven't been around for the last few weeks. I have now signed - and left a note on the OTRS admins page. Hope I'm not too late. I currently can't get onto OTRS itself, but that seems to be because the software I use to save passwords has flushed the password (and others - not a help). I'll have to get Keegan or someone to send me a replacement. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:33, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Be my mentor still

In the past years, I had very little interest in improving Misplaced Pages. In fact, I've hurt people more than I did not intend, and I was a fanatic deletionist. However, since I was unblocked with mentorship agreements, I thought I could do anything I want, but then I realize there is more to helping the cause than just stand there and do nothing except nominating for deletion. In fact, I have to reluctantly agree with terms, and so far I have interests in improving pages about topics more than just deleting material. Lately, I have requested renaming of Chandra Levy, and I created season pages, like Cheers (season 6), and improved Fab Five: The Texas Cheerleader Scandal.

However, I haven't used User talk:George Ho/Mentorship discussions for half a year (or something like that) because I no longer have interest in recklessly requesting deletion on things that need a lot of improvement. Neverthless, I think that List of Curb Your Enthusiasm directors must go. Lately, I've not been receiving replies. I would hope that the page is in your watchlist, isn't it? I wonder if you want to continue as my mentor. If not, then surely I can find your replacement if necessary.

Note: This post is intended for only active and semi-active people. --George Ho (talk) 06:00, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes it is on my watchlist George, and I apologise if I've missed anything I should have responded to. I've been very busy at work these past three months, and not very active on Misplaced Pages. But you've been doing so well, getting the balance right in your various suggestions, and working so well with other editors in the area, that I thought you probably didn't need a mentor most of the time.

I'm still here if you need me. Post your questions on this page, if you have anything you want to run by me. I will respond to them, or maybe one of my talk page watchers will respond (although not the rude IP I hope). But I think most of your suggestions are sound, and you are much more confident if other people have different opinions, so by and large I would say to just be bold and go with what you think.

I do agree with you about List of Curb Your Enthusiasm directors. Misplaced Pages is not a repository for every bit of trivia scraped off the back of dvd boxsets. Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:30, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

You've got mail!

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Hello, Elen of the Roads. Please check your email; you've got mail!
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Rschen7754 07:18, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Paul Bedson

You probably recall this editor. Last March you unblocked him and later blocked him. When you unblocked him he was denying sock puppetry. Looks like he was lying. See Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Paul Bedson - he started his Nasorean sock in February. I hate it when I AGF and get bitten, don't you? Dougweller (talk) 22:02, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

That's a pain in the patoot! --Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:02, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

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I mentioned you..

... in this query, as Fram has reverted User:Peter Damian back to the "scarlet letter" state. Bishonen | talk 11:26, 23 March 2013 (UTC).

...which I had already said to Elen (look for "Fram" higher on this talk page). Fram (talk) 12:30, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

The thing here is that everywhere else on the internet (never mind the real world) the basic difference between "socking" (which implies deceit and attempts to post falsely as someone else) and "posting while banned" (which is not complying with a particular restriction but is not necessarily deceitful) is widely acknowledged. The former can be a subset of the latter but not necessarily so. At some point, essentially because of how the whole sockpuppeting policy on Misplaced Pages developed historically, Misplaced Pages missed that distinction. But that's the usual inertia of inadequacy on Misplaced Pages not how things actually are, i.e. usual Misplaced Pages stupidity. In other words, this isn't really sock puppeting. It's "I'm banned, but I'll post anyway, letting everyone know who this is".

The surreal thing about it is that calling this sock puppeting and taking actions to "punish" the user, somehow flips things on their head by assuming that a particular online/Wikipedia account is *more real* than the actual person behind it. It's sort of crazy and it creeps me out frankly. I'm gonna undo these bad faithed retaliatory actions.Volunteer Marek 02:46, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Actually, he didn't let everyone know who he was. I, for example, didn't know that the IP was a banned editor until quite some time later. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:57, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Demiurge, will you just please FUCK OFF. Please. Really.Volunteer Marek 04:54, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Cause that's not incivil or a personal attack or blockable at all Marek... I'd think you watch ANI or related boards closely enough to know that is a blockable comment, if not by itself, when combined with your previous uses of such style. gwickwire_editing 05:02, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, I guess I won't, since the page(s) were fully protected. Why exactly is that? I could understand semi-protection so new usernames - who might be Peter Damian - couldn't undo it. But why prevent Wikipedians in good standing to disagree and undo these actions? That's seems like a heavy handed abuse of admin tools right there.Volunteer Marek 02:49, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Not only were the IPs not straightforward about who they were, User:Hestiaea wasn't either, which resulted in a rather upset and disappointed User:History2007 who had worked with him. As for the protection (which wasn't done by me), I guess that it is there to prevent "editors in good standing" from e.g. removing valid sockpuppet tags. Fram (talk) 07:42, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Scarlet letter tag now removed by AGK. Bishonen | talk 14:48, 25 March 2013 (UTC).

WP:AN discussion

A discussion which relates to actions or comments made by you can be found at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive247#Peter Damian socks. Fram (talk) 15:54, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

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FWIW

FWIW regarding this and this, please see here. GabeMc 23:20, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

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Elucidate

You elucidated me on Check User, and I quoted it here. Also: I miss you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:08, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

I hope you are still with us

I see you have not edited in over three weeks. I hope that the fact that the community made appalling mistakes in the past election has not caused you to abandon us.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:31, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

"Ndovu wawili wakipigana, ziumiazo na nyasi." (Swahili: When the elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers.) I really appreciate the calm yet firm way that Elen of the Roads deals with situations where some of those involved are doing everything they can to disrupt the process. I am really hoping that this will end up just being a well-deserved break. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:37, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

French copyright law concerning 1890 poster / Reporting data on unsigned, undated American poster circa 1890-1911

Dear Elen,

You were able to help me with a copyright question about three years ago (thank you very much), so I turn to you again with two other questions. First: I would like to upload to Wiki Commons a photo of a poster by Adolphe Willette for the pantomime L'Enfant prodigue by Michel Carré fils (1890). Unfortunately, Willette's date of death was February 4, 1926, which seems to prohibit free use of the image. But does it make a difference that the poster was reproduced in Ernest Maindron's Les Affiches illustrées (1886-1895) in Paris in the year 1896 (this would be my photographic source)?

My second question concerns a theater poster: I acquired a photo of it from the New York Public Library at Lincoln Center. The poster is undated and unsigned (though it seems to bear the name "J. Morgan & Co., U.S.A." in faint script bottom-right). It advertises a pantomime, Superba, by the Hanlon-Lees, that played only in North America from October 1, 1890, to April 22, 1911. I'm fairly certain I have free use of the image--but how do I go about dealing with questions about its authorship, date, and so on?

I'm very grateful for whatever help you can give me. Beebuk 10:42, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Elen's on wikibreak we hope right now, so let me take a shot at answering it. For the French image, I would use the copyright tags from Commons:{{PD-old-80}} and {{PD-1923}}. I've also been to that library, it is quite good except you get items at a very slow pace! As far as I'm concerned, posters are published when they are posted, especially since it is traditionally fairly easy to obtain such things when the show closes. I think {{PD-US}} is fine and I would, in the author field say while it is unknown, there is writing (or printing) on the image, and mention the Morgan thing. The authorship is irrelevant to the copyright if we accept that it was published before 1923. As for the date, post the info you have on when it ran, mentioning the source of the information and a link if available. If there is any question raised, come talk to me and I'll weigh in. I doubt there will be.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:51, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

A polite request

Hello Elen of the Roads! I have found that you have oversight tools. I would like to ask you to oversight this statement, because it is constantly used by others to attack, denigrate, harass and provoke wikipedian Russavia, like here, for example. --Seleucidis (talk) 11:23, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) That doesn't seem to meet the formal requirements for oversight. Russavia is responsible for any comments they make - hiding them and pretending they didn't exist certainly is not to the benefit of the project (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:26, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

What benefit do the project have from this comment? Will we get more editors? No. Honestly, I don't see any benefits, only disadvantages. --Seleucidis (talk) 11:56, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

For a shiney new user you get around a bit. Darkness Shines (talk) 12:00, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

It is quite useless to act on this request because there are other statements that I am sure russavia wants to oversight, for instance this one: "We should then have the hook,...DYK...Vladimir Zhirinovsky put a ring on his big cock, and then placed it between Ms XXX's tits? Let's see how you guys would handle that one eh. Lighten up.....geeeez. Russavia ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) 22:21, 26 March 2012 (UTC)". 71.198.214.181 (talk) 15:21, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

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Aaron Swartz

A matter you helped resolve, for a time, is heating up again. Would you please review this talk page thread and see if you think I'm out of line? Or if anyone else is. I think it's someone else, but a review of my edits is probably necessary as well. Thanks. David in DC (talk) 22:18, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

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G5 deletion

I have nominated the article G5 (Universities) for deletion, but I am not sure whether I have completed all the steps, and wondered if you may be able to help as an admin/experienced user. thanksHkong91 (talk) 00:58, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

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Hoax Region

I have found a hoax region "Upstate California" with which the creating User_talk:Ikluft#No_govt_rivalry user seems to be emotionally and personally involved. I am unable to verify that the economic entity on that page is real. I have lived in this area since 2001, I have never heard the term used for any part of California except by the "Upstate Economic Development" group which is being promoted on this wiki page even though it is not one of the legally constituted Economic Development groups in the region. I am unable to find that the term is in any form of wide-spread use other that for the mentions given on that page. I have read several of the documents from end to end and I still don't find this to be of much importance, other than to the people who are promoting it - and promoting themselves. A simple Google search turns up 3 things: Wiki page, Forum of "whoever heard of Upstate California" and the website of the UED, which has very little on it. I don't think many pages link to this page, mostly because it's not a real entity in this part of Northern California which is usually referred to as the "Northstate" region as correctly stated on the Northern California wikipage. Looking forward to any assistance you can render with this person and their self-promotion. With best wishes, Ellin Beltz (talk) 17:25, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Elen's been offline since March (I don't know why) so you may need to seek assistance elsewhere. NE Ent 23:55, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

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Email

Hello, Elen of the Roads. Please check your e-mail – you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the e-mail is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{YGM}} template. — NW (Talk) 14:19, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

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United States editor dispute

Hello Elen of the Roads

A certain VictorD7 editor has deleted good faith edits that used Alan Taylor (2001), American Colonies, as references. The current article United States in the Settlements section has no references in the first paragraph. VictorD7 is currently not allowing me to make any edits in the United States article in the Settlements section. I believe this is article ownership in violation of wikipedia policy. You can check the History record of the United States article to verify my statements. Thanks. Cmguy777 (talk) 02:14, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

A reading of the US talk page will show that the above accusation is garbage. Cmguy777 tried to make a significant edit that included deleting an entire paragraph of basic, undisputed info (without warning) that had been in the article for a long time, and I reverted him, asking him to discuss it first on the Talk Page. That's all. So far his edit has zero support and has already been criticized by another editor. This is a non-issue. VictorD7 (talk) 06:19, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Again VictorD7, your response is evidence of your continued manipulation and obsession of any edits I make in the article. Kindly let Elen of the Roads make the decision if this is a non issue. Cmguy777 (talk) 15:50, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Regretfully, she seems to have left us, or more precisely, was driven off by that whole thing last year. There are people who I blame very much for this.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:37, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Wehwalt, if Elen of the Roads has been "driven off" I suppose there is no need for further comments on this page. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:07, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Regrettably, except for the purpose of letting people know, there is not.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:17, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

You have mail (re: Inactivity)

Hi Elen. I hope everything is okay. You've been inactive for several months, so I've dropped you an e-mail with the usual advance warning that your CU/OS permissions will be revoked if you continue to be missing from Misplaced Pages. Please let us know soon if you intend to return at some point in the near future. AGK 10:27, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I hope you decide to come back sometime. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 19:56, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Just to let you know

You have been mentioned at Misplaced Pages:Missing Wikipedians XOttawahitech (talk) 20:24, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

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Elen off the Roads?

Dear Elen, Hope you come back, or are still here somewhere under a new name. We miss your generous spirit and willingness to aid those in need. Hope this is just a temporary hiatus, and we all wish you well in whatever endeavors you are pursuing. Rosencomet (talk) 15:34, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

• I'd like to sign on to that. Cynwolfe (talk) 18:33, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
• Missing you, too, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:19, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
• Me as well, he said belatedly. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:57, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
• And me! Mostly, I hope you are well (selfishly wishing I knew). :) John Cline (talk) 18:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
• Me piling on too. Dropped you an e-mail as well, thinking you maybe might not check this page as often anymore, for whatever reason. John Carter (talk) 18:51, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
• Me, too. I hope that the reasons for your absence are all good. - Sitush (talk) 18:58, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
• Your clear thinking and straight forward style are missed. I would wish you back but life is short so hope you are doing what makes you feel the happiest.(olive (talk) 19:58, 2 September 2013 (UTC))
• She was one of my favourite arbs. Δρ.Κ.  20:03, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
• More pile-on from me too. I hope all is well with you! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:46, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
• I miss being able to ask you for advice. I hope you are ok. --Pine 06:25, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
• I wish you were an arbitrator in the Infoboxes case. I compare my statements with the so-called "findings" about two editors of whom I speak with high respect there, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:37, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
• Yup. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 07:51, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

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Best wishes

May the road rise up to meet you.
May the wind be always at your back.
May the sun shine warm upon your face;
the rains fall soft upon your fields and until we meet again,
may God hold you in the palm of His hand.

NE Ent 01:05, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

CheckUser and Oversight

Hi Elen,

We have sent you a number of emails about this, but I wanted to post this on-wiki note as well. The Arbitration Committee has removed your CheckUser and Oversight access for inactivity. If you return one day and wish to regain the tools, well, I'm sure you know the procedure for doing even better than I do. Best, NW (Talk) 18:16, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Levineps violating topic ban, again

FYI, as you were the last admin to block him for violating his editing restrictions. postdlf (talk) 16:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

ArbCom

Just dropping by to get you to run for ArbCom and I see you've up and gone. It is a pity for all of us... Best wishes to you in Life After The Circus. —Tim //// Carrite (talk) 08:05, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Potential sockpuppet of Levineps

Recently, User:Oriole85 (contribs) has been sporadically popping up on my watchlist for category-related changes. A lot of new users do that, so it wasn't a particularly noteworthy thing for me. But then he kept showing up with a higher frequency, oftentimes making (what I thought to be) completely unnecessary over-categorizations to articles. I've been on Misplaced Pages long enough to know that User:Levineps (contribs) is one of the most notorious over-categorizers we've ever seen (and has the community sanctions, block records, and bans to show for it). So, I did about two minutes' worth of research and discovered that Oriole85's account was created / his edits began on November 5, 2013. When was the last edit by Levineps? November 4, 2013. That is not a coincidence IMO. I don't have (a) the time right now, nor (b) the motivation to formally open an SPI, but I'm hoping that one of the many people I'm notifying about this does. If you're wondering why you're being pinged about this, it's because I saw where you were one of the people who has left messages on Levineps' talk page at some point regarding his inappropriate editing. So now, in addition to all of the aforementioned issues with Levineps, it looks like a probably sockpuppet to throw into the mix. Jrcla2 (talk) 05:32, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

civility
Thank you for your answers to my questions about our respect for editors as living persons, for your illustrations of "fishy" with "grace under fire", for a flavoured tea, - repeating: you are an awesome Wikipedian (22 November 2009)!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:36, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Precious and missed

A year ago, you were the 332nd recipient of my PumpkinSky Prize, now we miss you. I entered you in my list of answers from the candidates, knowing that you would have looked at the facts and told a colleague who didn't, with your flavour of kindness, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:40, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Two years now: looking at what some said about a "gender gap", you are missed even more. Promising answers by new candidates who didn't mention gender, but common sense ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:21, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Six years now, and remebered, and much missed, see? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:10, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

seven, and remembered --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:04, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Merry Christmas! :-)

Happy Yuletides!

Merry Yuletides to you! (And a happy new year!)

~TheGeneralUser (talk) is wishing you a Merry Christmas! This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Happy New Year!

Spread the Christmas cheer by adding {{subst:Xmas3}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Hi Elen, Wishing you a very Happy and Wonderful Merry Christmas! Hope you are having a great time with family and friends :-) I hope you're still out there visiting Misplaced Pages frequently, (though not editing) hopefully you might return some day eventually. Best wishes. ~TheGeneralUser (talk) 22:14, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

What happened? Where is Elen of the Roads?

I see Elen has been added to the Missing Wikipedians category. Anyone know what happened? --B2C 01:22, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

This page speaks for itself, sadly, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:18, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Is there a Readers Digest version? --B2C 19:04, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

No, it's a puzzle. I know that she offered tea, see a little above, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:09, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

She choose to stop participating in March 2013; I'm not aware of any on-wiki statement as to her reasoning, and if she emailed anyone with explanations it wasn't me. NE Ent 19:12, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

The lack of explanation is disturbing. --B2C 21:38, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

My hope has been that she has made a clean start and is contributing in areas of the project far, far away from functionary-related areas and all the pressure they entail. She was a fine arb and an effective admin, but I suppose she was simply a good editor before that, and there's no reason she couldn't be one again. Then again, maybe she's happily living RL and avoiding Misplaced Pages entirely. Considering the events that took place (which we really don't need to rehash here), I wouldn't blame her if it's the latter. Rivertorch (talk) 22:43, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I have no idea what "the events" are. --B2C 23:07, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Best to keep it that way. Nobody's going to dig them up for you ... and nobody with an ounce of decency will go digging for them DP 09:44, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Well said. Good panda. bishzilla _ROARR!! 11:21, 14 February 2014 (UTC).

Not so sure: can you clarify, panda, that the lack of decency was not on Elen's part? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:31, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

? Not needed, Gerda. There is no way to construe the pandaspeak as referring to lack of decency on Elen's part. Bishonen | talk 15:22, 14 February 2014 (UTC).

How are the developers coming on the "Don't thank" feature? Rivertorch (talk) 13:56, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree with the "ounce of decency" comment. I had almost no interaction with Elen, but she was an ubiquitous part of the community, and I am puzzled and saddened that she no longer participates. If one of those who had much more interaction wanted to know what happened, I would find that entirely reasonable. It may be that she lost interest, in which case we should let it go. But it may also be that she would appreciate knowing that people cared enough about her to want to know what happened.--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:35, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

I can say only the little I know: she offered tea to the wrong person, and there was a major dramah during the arbcom election of 2012. (I didn't dig into it.) She didn't retire immediately after that. I still miss her. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:44, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

"Offered tea"? What does that mean? As to the arbcom election of 2012... was she a candidate and lost? Where are those archives? --B2C 18:35, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

B2c, I assume you are just as capable as the rest of us at checking page histories and following links if you want to know what happened with this or any other kerfuffle on Misplaced Pages. It's all there if you care to look, and it's unreasonable to expect anyone to spoon-feed links to you upon request. Having said that, I agree with S Philbrick that it's not unreasonable to want to know (I've certainly wasted spent innumerable hours researching various dramahs—sometimes in an effort to better understand Misplaced Pages's conflicts and see where their participants are coming from, sometimes just out of morbid curiosity, i.e., human nature), and I don't see that "decency" has anything to do with it. And having said that, I'll also say this: my concern, and the reason I jumped into this thread, is that I'd hate to see old wounds reopened to no good purpose. People may legitimately hold different interpretations of what happened with Arbcom in late 2012, but I'd hope we can all agree that it serves no good purpose to restart the dramah again here and now. Since Elen is no longer a functionary, even the people who disagreed with her actions have no legitimate reason to resume their complaints about her now. So please, let's not go over old ground again. Rivertorch (talk) 23:10, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm sure I'm not the first or last that came here wondering why I have not encountered her in a while, and wondered what happened. Yes, I can probably spend hours digging around, and so can everyone else. Or maybe we could save everyone that time and summarize the undisputed facts that are probably related to her apparent choice to leave us without explanation.

I'll start a new section accordingly.

I still don't get the "offered tea to the wrong person" reference. I see an offer of tea to Elen on this page, but nothing about her offering tea to anyone. --B2C 23:33, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

A rather obscure metaphor, I guess. The half-dozen sections of this very page situated immediately above and below the coffee, actually, (and the kitten & the pony) contain the gist of it, at least by implication. A few minutes of reading there, but I don’t know how much more it might take to find satisfactory answers, as I doubt the “undisputed facts” lead very far. All you’ll get from anyone else here are opinions.—Odysseus1479 08:11, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Elen of the Roads ceased editing in March 2013 without posting any sort of explanatory statement. We should respect her privacy and not post speculation as to the reasons for that -- quite simply, it is not our story to tell. NE Ent 11:03, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! A gift from fellow Wikipedians.

You have been selected to receive a merchandise giveaway. We last contacted you on 2/19/2014. Please send us a message if you would like to claim your shirt. --JMatthews (WMF) (talk) 06:44, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Notification of pending suspension of administrative permissions due to inactivity

Following a community discussion in June 2011, consensus was reached to provisionally suspend the administrative permissions of users who have been inactive for one year (i.e. administrators who have not made any edits or logged actions in over one year). As a result of this discussion, your administrative permissions will be removed pending your return if you do not return to activity within the next month. If you wish to have these permissions reinstated should this occur, please post to the Misplaced Pages:Bureaucrats' noticeboard and the userright will be restored per the re-sysopping process (i.e. as long as the attending bureaucrats are reasonably satisfied that your account has not been compromised, that your inactivity did not have the effect of evading scrutiny of any actions which might have led to sanctions, and that you have not been inactive for a three year period of time). If you remain inactive for a three year period of time, including the present year you have been inactive, you will need to request reinstatement at WP:RFA. This removal of access is procedural only, and not intended to reflect negatively upon you in any way. We wish you the best in future endeavors, and thank you for your past administrative efforts. MadmanBot (talk) 00:15, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

*sigh* That's just sad :-( DP 01:35, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Extremely sad about this :( — ΛΧΣ Call me Hahc21 01:54, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

I miss Elen as well; considerably! My remembrance of her precludes sadness however, for I am of the fortunate kind; having many happy recollections – unto laughter at times. If I must wrestle an emotion, perhaps I am jealous of her husband; being blessed unto a wife so dear. Repeating what I said above, I mainly hope that you, and those who cause you to smile, are happy and well – and maybe, that one day you will message someone; allowing them to tell us you've said hello, and that you are well. If you want to shake the foundation a tad; in so doing: grant that privilege to me – I would love such a high honor. Sincerely—John Cline (talk) 16:47, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Notification of imminent suspension of administrative permissions due to inactivity

Following a community discussion in June 2011, consensus was reached to provisionally suspend the administrative permissions of users who have been inactive for one year (i.e. administrators who have not made any edits or logged actions in over one year). As a result of this discussion, your administrative permissions will be removed pending your return if you do not return to activity within the next several days. If you wish to have these permissions reinstated should this occur, please post to the Misplaced Pages:Bureaucrats' noticeboard and the userright will be restored per the re-sysopping process (i.e. as long as the attending bureaucrats are reasonably satisfied that your account has not been compromised, that your inactivity did not have the effect of evading scrutiny of any actions which might have led to sanctions, and that you have not been inactive for a three year period of time). If you remain inactive for a three year period of time, including the present year you have been inactive, you will need to request reinstatement at WP:RFA. This removal of access is procedural only, and not intended to reflect negatively upon you in any way. We wish you the best in future endeavors, and thank you for your past administrative efforts. MadmanBot (talk) 00:50, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Suspension of administrative permissions due to inactivity

Following a community discussion in June 2011, consensus was reached to provisionally suspend the administrative permissions of users who have been inactive for one year (i.e. administrators who have not made any edits or logged actions in over one year). As a result of this discussion, your administrative permissions have been removed pending your return. If you wish to have these permissions reinstated, please post to the Misplaced Pages:Bureaucrats' noticeboard and the userright will be restored per the re-sysopping process (i.e. as long as the attending bureaucrats are reasonably satisfied that your account has not been compromised, that your inactivity did not have the effect of evading scrutiny of any actions which might have led to sanctions, and that you have not been inactive for a three year period of time). If you remain inactive for a three year period of time, including the present year you have been inactive, you will need to request reinstatement at WP:RFA. This removal of access is procedural only, and not intended to reflect negatively upon you in any way. We wish you the best in future endeavors, and thank you for your past administrative efforts. –xeno 17:30, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Missing your contributions

Elen, I don't know whether you will read here again, nor whether you will ever choose to return to Misplaced Pages, but I miss your editing and your administrating, and do hope you will choose to be back again someday. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:10, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Like DP 00:16, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Can't be repeated enough, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:29, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

• I came here to say the same exact thing. Here's hoping you return someday — you're one of the good ones. Kurtis 11:49, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Request for comment

Hello there, a proposal regarding pre-adminship review has been raised at Village pump by Anna Frodesiak. Your comments here is very much appreciated. Many thanks. Jim Carter through MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 06:46, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

In regards to your six month block

Hi Elen. May I ask of you why you blocked me back in the end of 2011? Did I do something awfully destructive? If I did do something, then what did I do? Here are some things.

• You closed the discussion in less than 24 hours, when there was only 10 supports. Only snow discussions can be closed that soon. And only 10 supports is not snow in any way.
• I did not do anything disruptive. I was doing my best to listen to others and take all their points.
• They had all formed a witch-hunt. They had accused me of incompetence, and being deaf. But I hadn't made any problems, considering my deletion requests got accepted, and 90% of my edits weren't reverted.
• I do make mistakes, we all do. It is impossible not to make mistakes. But those mistakes could be easily fixed.
• I was doing my best to be a constructive contributor. Even my mentor said so.
• I was acting in 100% good faith. Doing my best to avoid making mistakes, and listen to other contributors.

If there is any dissent, please say it. I would be very appreciated if you could tell me what I did that was so harmful to the project. Thank you for your everything you do and have done.

(Oh, and by the way, I go to college/tertiary education now.)

Regards, -Porchcorpter 10:16, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Porchcorpter, as you can see from the top of this page Elen of the Roads has not edited on Misplaced Pages in well over a year. As regards the reason for the community consensus that you be blocked for six months, please read this section of the ANI archives and this section where there was an overwhelming consensus to uphold the block. The fact that almost two years after it expired, you are still totally oblivious as to why your behaviour resulted in the block and are still attempting to argue with the administrator who enacted it does not bode very well for your future editing here. Voceditenore (talk) 10:53, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Voceditnore, first of all, I do not like arguing. Arguing is not my type of thing, and I don't like arguing. I am not "arguing" with Elen that she blocked me, I am 'questioning' her why she blocked me. Second of all, I know she is inactive, but I did not come here to ask why she is inactive. And if it really is community consensus, then I am curious what I did that was disruptive. But do you think I am immature? I go to college now. And in everything else, thank you. -Porchcorpter 11:22, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

• On top of that, asking someone why they did something 2.5 years ago is a fruitless, ridiculous endeavour. I barely remember what I did last night. the panda ɛˢˡ” 11:11, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

• For someone who says they don't like arguing, I wonder how you can so easily make clearly judgmental, unsupported comments, which tend to be the basis of "arguing," like "I did not do anything disruptive" (in which you clearly make numerous judgments without having apparently defined the term "disruptive"), "They had all formed a witch-hunt" (a rather wild jump to conclusions regarding both motivation and actions), and other obviously inflammatory statements. And, although as you said "you did not come here to ask why she is inactive" (as if it would be likely Elen would come back to editing for that specific purpose alone), you have apparently chosen to make a total quixotic effort similar to, basically, asking a dead person about their last phone call. "Irrational" doesn't begin to describe such activity. Do others think you are immature? Possibly, and, unfortunately, at least from my own experience with some college students here, they tend to be among the most dogmatic and inflexible editors I've seen, because they tend to edit in areas in which they have almost "evangelical" interest. If you really want to know how you were being disruptive, asking someone who has a reasonable chance of responding, like any other party involved in the discussion, would probably be less disruptive in at least one sense of the word than asking questions at a page where the person nominally being asked is almost certainly not going to directly respond. John Carter (talk) 15:14, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

• P.S. Elen, if you ever do see this, I can understand your leaving this combative mess of POV pushers, self-absorbed egomaniacs, and tunnel vision illiterates. You know, people like me. Some of the other foundation sites, like wikisource, feel like being in heaven in comparison, and I think everybody would be quite happy and more than willing to offer any assistance requested if you wanted to maybe put some time in there. And the dramah is only a small fraction of that here in comparison. John Carter (talk) 15:19, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

This one says "meow", surprisingly. All the best,

Drmies (talk) 01:46, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2015!!!

Hello Elen of the Roads, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you a heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2015. Happy editing, --John Cline (talk) 12:05, 27 December 2014 (UTC) Spread the love by adding {{subst:Seasonal Greetings}} to other user talk pages.

Unblock of supersockpuppet Ratel you have blocked

Surely you are interested in this:

And let me copy here my last comment there to introduce the situation:

" 'Let me summarize here what the last admin discovered and stated on 2012¡: Ratel but using the sockpuppet Jabbsworth plead to ARBCOM to be unblocked promising he will never use sockpuppets and openly mentioned to ARBCOM three sockpuppets (RxWatch, OzOke, and Hill-Mitchelson) he was using. On 2012 admin User:Elen of the Roads noticed that Jabssworth never mentioned but hid to ARBCOM that he was also Ratel, and he never mentioned but also hid that he was Ticklemeister. User:Elen of the Roads also discovered and noticed that he was also using another sockpuppet (Medic58), that he also kept hid during his last and all the previous SPI and also hid it to ARBCOM. So he was clearly breaching his promises to ARBCOM, deceiving them and the users, plus dishonoring his own words. That was the kind of disruptive behaviour that was sanctioned by User:Elen of the Roads by re-establishing the block that ARBCOM had forgiven to Jabssworth. Now since 2013 up to now, Ratel using JabbaTheHot evaded that last block, breaks his promises, he is caught and blocked again some days ago and you say that is a clean start, that he is not being distruptive and therefore he deserves to be unblocked again? " --ClaudioSantos¿? 19:02, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

This is a award

	for having a awesome userpage
	this is a awesome userpage Dfrr (talk) 20:17, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi - long time

Thought of you today - and just noting that you are missed. Hope all is well in your world Elen. — Ched :  ?  18:39, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Your day of precious remembered, with another kitten, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:01, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

... remembered again, five years, and missed. Your talk is still a source of inspiration, DYK? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:42, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Contests

User:Dr. Blofeld has created Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Africa/Contests. The idea is to run a series of contests/editathons focusing on each region of Africa. He has spoken to Wikimedia about it and $1000-1500 is possible for prize money. As someone who has previously expressed interest in African topics, would you be interested in contributing to one or assisting draw up core article/missing article lists? He says he's thinking of North Africa for an inaugural one in October. If interested please sign up in the participants section of the Contest page, thanks.♦ --Ser Amantio di Nicolao_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 01:19, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

indefinite blocking of SNIyer12

Hi,

On 20 October 2012 you indefinitely blocked SNIyer12 (talk · contribs · count) an editor who contributed 61,233 edits to wikipedia and had been active since 3 April 2005. Where can I find the background of the blocking of this editor. Thanks in advance, Ottawahitech (talk) 15:23, 7 October 2016 (UTC)please ping me

We miss Elen for years. Are you looking for watchers who know background? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:28, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Or, you could read the block log which clearly links to the reason. ‑ Iridescent 17:23, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

What Iridescent said, Ottawahitech. In addition, see the editor's talk page here where Elen explained the conditions for the unblock, the editor failed to respond to her, then submitted an unblock request three years later and was refused by another administrator who explained why. And of course see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/SNIyer12/Archive. SNIyer12 has continued socking ever since he/she was blocked. You could have easily found out all of this within a few minutes. Plus there is a clear notice on the top of this page that Elen hasn't edited Misplaced Pages for over three years. So what exactly is your point in posting here? Voceditenore (talk) 17:39, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

@Voceditenore, I'd imagine it's related to this somewhat creepy page OHT maintains which names-and-shames every former Misplaced Pages editor and the reason they're no longer active. ‑ Iridescent 16:14, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

@Iridescent: Please see Wikipedia_talk:Missing_Wikipedians#"somewhat creepy page”. I hope you don't mind. Ottawahitech (talk) 15:38, 10 October 2016 (UTC)please ping me

@Gerda Arendt: Long time no see talk, nice to see a friendly face here. Anyway, I am just trying to figure out a better way of communicating information in regards to blocked users, since as you probably know, I was once myself indefinitely blocked. Ottawahitech (talk) 14:45, 9 October 2016 (UTC)please ping me

Proposed deletion of File:Watchlist with green stars.png

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Proposed deletion of File:Watchlist with stars and bold.png

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Today's Wikipedian 10 years ago

Awesome

Ten years!

We miss you. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:00, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

"Untitled Star Trek sequel" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Untitled Star Trek sequel. Since you had some involvement with the Untitled Star Trek sequel redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. TheAwesomeHwyh 17:27, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Always precious

Ten years ago, you were found precious. You are remembered and missed. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:11, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Yup. Miss you, hope you're OK.--Herostratus (talk) 04:15, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

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