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This page is currently inactive and is retained for historical reference. Either the page is no longer relevant or consensus on its purpose has become unclear. To revive discussion, seek broader input via a forum such as the village pump. Discretionary sanctions for the Tea Party movement have been superseded by American politics 2.

This page is used for the focused discussion on improving the Tea Party movement article. Requests for minor edits, general discussion on sources, individual queries about the article which are not related to the focused discussion, etc, should take place on the main article talkpage. In order to maintain focus, the aim is to discuss one editing aspect at a time. Currently we are looking at trimming the article, and moving some of the material into sub-articles. Following a discussion there is a show of hands to establish there are no significant outstanding objections, and to establish consensus, and then the edit can be actioned. Commenting on the contributors is not allowed, and while up to now such comments have simply been hatted, from this point, anyone making a personal comment will be formally warned, and if necessary will be blocked. Anyone who has concerns about a comment that has been made, should not respond here, but leave a note for me either on my talkpage or by email. I am not able to carefully read this page every day, so patience and communication to me about concerns is needed. Progress is being made, and though there are sticky patches, the article is improving. SilkTork 09:32, 22 May 2013 (UTC) The article has been unlocked, so I have amended the above notice. And add here: If someone new to the article makes an inappropriate edit, inform them of this moderated discussion, and discuss the edit on this page. If someone who is already aware of the restrictions in place makes an inappropriate edit, inform me, and I will deal with it. SilkTork 14:03, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

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The Tea Party doesn't have a single uniform agenda. The decentralized character of the Tea Party, with its lack of formal structure or hierarchy, allows each autonomous group to set its own priorities and goals. Goals may conflict, and priorities will often differ between groups. Many Tea Party organizers see this as a strength rather than a weakness, as decentralization has helped to immunize the Tea Party against co-opting by outside entities and corruption from within.

The Tea Party has generally sought to avoid placing too much emphasis on traditional conservative social issues. National Tea Party organizations, such as the Tea Party Patriots and FreedomWorks, have expressed concern that engaging in social issues would be divisive. Instead, they have sought to have activists focus their efforts away from social issues and focus on economic and limited government issues. Still, many groups like Glenn Beck's 9/12 Tea Parties, TeaParty.org, the Iowa Tea Party and Delaware Patriot Organizations do act on social issues such as abortion, gun control, prayer in schools, and illegal immigration.

The Tea Party generally focuses on government reform. Among its goals are limiting the size of the federal government, reducing government spending, lowering the national debt and opposing tax increases. To this end, Tea Party groups have protested TARP, stimulus programs, cap and trade, health care reform and perceived attacks by the federal government on their 1st, 2nd, 4th and 10th Amendment rights. Tea Party groups have also voiced support for right to work legislation as well as tighter border security, and opposed amnesty for illegal immigrants. They have formed Super PACs to support candidates sympathetic to their goals and have opposed what they call the "Republican establishment" candidates. After setbacks in the 2012 elections, the movement again shifted its focus. With repeal off the table, the Tea party now leads efforts to nullify federal health care law. It has also mobilized locally against the United Nations Agenda 21. They have protested the IRS for controversial treatment of groups with "tea party" in their names.

Even though the groups have a wide range of different goals, the Tea Party places the Constitution at the center of its reform agenda. It urges the return of government as intended by the Founding Fathers. It also seeks to teach its view of the Constitution and other founding documents. Scholars have described its interpretation variously as originalist, popular, or a unique combination of the two. Reliance on the Constitution is selective and inconsistent. Adherents cite it, yet do so more as a cultural reference rather than out of commitment to the text, which they seek to alter. Several constitutional amendments have been targeted by some in the movement for full or partial repeal, including the 14th, 16th, and 17th. There has also been support for a proposed Repeal Amendment, which would enable a two-thirds majority of the states to repeal federal laws, and a Balanced Budget Amendment, which would limit deficit spending.

Unresolved concerns:

4) Introduce the pedestrian understanding of constitutional originalism by sociologists: Reliance on the Constitution is selective and inconsistent. Adherents cite it, yet do so as a cultural reference rather than out of commitment to the text, which they seek to alter.

• Oppose - You don't call a plumber to tell you why the furnace is acting up. †TE†Talk 21:25, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Addendum: Malke and P&W's versions both have this sentence in their proposed paragraph on Contract from America, which I don't object to adding if we intend to scrap the present subsection on that same topic:

The top ten included "identify the constitutionality of every new law, reject cap and trade legislation, demand a balanced federal budget, simplify the tax code, assess constitutionality of federal agencies, limit growth in annual federal spending, repeal Obamacare, new energy policy that supports exploration, reduce earmarks, and reduce federal taxes."

Xenophrenic (talk) 10:25, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd keep the list, but we do need a merge for reduced redundancy. †TE†Talk 21:30, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Same answer as the previous 5 versions. Good enough to go in as a starting point for further work. With the understanding that it needs changes which we can handle then. (Including later fixing the travesty "Reliance on the Constitution is selective and inconsistent." If someone advocates blacks' right to vote and cites the constitution, but fails to advocate the right to bear arms in the same speech, do you put that "inconsistent" statement in their article?) Would not replace the subsections which would be handled separately. North8000 (talk) 13:41, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

re: Reliance on the Constitution is selective and inconsistent. Adherents cite it, yet do so as a cultural reference rather than out of commitment to the text, which they seek to alter.

Two objections have been raised about that text. The first, is that it is opinion, rather than reliably sourced fact. This is incorrect; the sources do not say they are opining, and the sources (the Oxford University published book, and the peer-reviewed academic paper) are indeed reliable. Also, equally reliable sources calling that text into question have not been produced. Further objections along those lines would be better handled at WP:RSN.

The second objection, as I understand it, is that the text is inaccurate or false. The "right to vote/right to bear arms" example doesn't exemplify the reasoning behind the "inconsistent" description being used here. Here is some of the source content supporting the proposed text:

It can further be found in the TPM’s recurring cultural theme of returning to the ideals of the Constitution. Like the Tea Party name, this theme is selectively nostalgic Support for Constitutional principles is not absolute. TPM supporters were twice as likely than others to favor a constitutional amendment banning flag burning; many also support efforts to overturn citizenship as defined by the Fourteenth Amendment. That TPM supporters simultaneously want to honor the founders’ Constitution and alter that same document highlights the political flexibility of the cultural symbols they draw on. The TPM supporters’ inconsistent views of the Constitution suggests that their nostalgic embrace of the document is animated more by a network of cultural associations than a thorough commitment to the original text. (Perrin, Pgs. 7-8)

They are doing what every political endeavor does: using history as a source of inspiration and social identity. Just like other political actors, past and present, Tea Partiers stretch the limits of the Constitution, use it selectively, and push for amendments. Tea Partiers have argued for measures such as restrictions on birthright citizenship, abridgements of freedom of religion for Muslim-Americans, and suspension of protections in the Bill of Rights for suspected terrorists. Some parts of the Constitution are lauded over others. (Skocpol/Williamson, Pgs. 50-51)

The "inconsistency" is not so much that they do advocate one part while not advocating another part of the Constitution (although they do that, too), but more that they advocate adherance to the constitution while at the same time advocating amending or repealing. Did I incorrectly word what the sources are saying, or is the contention that the sources are just wrong? Xenophrenic (talk) 19:59, 10 July 2013 (UTC) (I note that North8000 is travelling, and says we can fix this later, but I thought I'd at least try to get a clearer picture of the objection.) Xenophrenic (talk) 19:59, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd call it misleading POV wording, including if a source said it. Again, we can fix this after it's in. North8000 (talk) 13:36, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

"A source" didn't say it, many sources have. Here's another one:

The Tea Partiers' view of the Constitution was commonly described as "originalism," a fidelity to the exact words of the document as they were written in 1787 that has adherents at major universities and, in Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas, on the U.S. Supreme Court. And some Tea Partiers' version of the Constitution sounded just like that. But many others were learning subjective interpretations of the Constitution that went beyond the primary source, and beyond what legal scholars or Americans would recognize—even using a dictionary—in reading the original document. (Zernike; Boiling Mad, Pgs. 67-68)

And another one in this academic, peer reviewed paper contrasting conservative originalism with progressive living constitutionalism (cited in no fewer than 33 academic journals and papers):

It serves as a critical counterweight to the distorted history pedaled by many conservative politicians and activists, including the members of the Tea Party. These activists seek to portray themselves as the true defenders of the Constitution, but they are selective in their defense and in their vision. They incorrectly portray the powers of the federal government established by the original Constitution as exceedingly limited, which ignores both the language of the Constitution and the crucial fact that it was adopted in response to the flawed Articles of Confederation, which failed to establish a strong national government. In addition to distorting the original Constitution, Tea Partiers often pretend as if the Constitution were never amended and therefore simply ignore the expansion of individual rights and federal power accomplished by those amendments. When selective amnesia fails, they call for jettisoning portions of the Constitution they dislike, including the guarantee of citizenship in the Fourteenth Amendment to all who are born in the United States. Indeed, Justice Scalia jumped on the Tea Party bandwagon last year in suggesting that the Seventeenth Amendment was a bad idea, which is simultaneously remarkable and somewhat beside the point for a sitting Justice, whose oath is to defend the Constitution—even the parts he may not like. Put simply, the rise of the Tea Party has led to a national debate over the meaning of the Constitution, which has recently focused on the constitutionality of health care reform. The distortions, selective reading of the Constitution, and calls for constitutional amendments by Tea Partiers demand a response from progressives, and Amar‘s work outlines a devastating one. But there is a further lesson in here for progressives who remain uncertain about the wisdom of embracing the Constitution. If the Tea Partiers have to fiddle so much with the actual Constitution in order to claim that it supports their positions, doesn‘t that in itself constitute excellent proof that the real Constitution is not nearly as conservative as the Tea Partiers would like? (James E. Ryan; Virginia Law Review, Pgs. 19-20)

Another highly regarded source published by Johns Hopkins University Press makes this observation in his book specifically about the Tea Party movement:

The federal government, especially Congress, must be held to a strict interpretation of the Constitution. Like other Americans, however, Tea Party supporters are selective about which passages to ignore and which to revere. (Formisano; Pg. 52)

So, to recap, here's the proposed text based on many reliable sources: "Reliance on the Constitution is selective and inconsistent. Adherents cite it, yet do so more as a cultural reference rather than out of commitment to the text, which they seek to alter." That accurately conveys what the multiple reliable sources say, without being misleading. Are there other concerns?

Xenophrenic (talk) 05:44, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Getting back to work

Suggestions on what to work on next

It might be a good idea to open a section addressing the specific government programs the TP opposes and include the Social Security and Medicare programs which TP members depend on. Tea Party members and their supporters don't seem to be against them, yet these programs represent the same kind of huge government programs they are opposed to.

Malke 2010 (talk) 15:17, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

That would prove difficult. How do we delve into the complexity of Medicare which older Americans paid into their entire lives only to see cut for another entitlement (Obamacare), and social security which is backed by IOU's the federal government can only pay back with increased taxes or borrowing? Even saying they oppose these programs is troublesome. Opposition is more to the administration of such programs. †TE†Talk 15:31, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I thought it was an interesting dichotomy. Look at the demographic. They're all headed for retirement and will need these programs. I've mentioned this several times back in 2010 but nobody ever wanted to do it. Malke 2010 (talk) 16:23, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

• Malke, please feel free to write a couple of paragraphs on that topic and post them here for approval. If there's a reliable source which specifically addresses that "interesting dichotomy," it should be identified and cited like this:

Joe Blow, a political science professor at Wassamatta U., has examined the "paradox" created by the Tea Party movement's support for reform of Social Security and Medicare. Blow observes this support is not in the self-interest of many Tea Party members, since they tend to be over 50 years old and will be relying on these programs in a few years.

• There are three steps I'd like to take right away:

1. One thing I think we should take action on immediately is adding the word "grass-roots" (with the Wikilink) to the lede sentence. We were discussing it just before the moderated discussion started. I felt we had consensus for it, since there were so many reliable sources to support it. The allegations about Astroturfing have one or two sources, and are clearly a minority opinion per WP:WEIGHT.
2. Another thing we should consider immediately is removing the Other events section. The removal of the "On issues of race, bigotry and public perception" section has kind of orphaned THIS section. I suggest we cut the length of the paragraph about the gas grill in half, and add both events to the list of bulleted incidents at the end of Perceptions of the Tea Party movement, in chronological order.
3. Also, there's a subsection at the beginning of the "History" section called Commentaries on origin. Nothing there is notable enough to remain in this top-level article. It should be moved to the spin-off article, Perceptions of the Tea Party movement, after the bulleted list of incidents.

• Strongly support. Now that the "On issues of race, bigotry and public perception" roadblock has finally been removed, we can move forward with several other items that have been waiting patiently. The "grass-roots" edit, for example, has been waiting for two months. Let's get these three items done and move on. regards .... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 03:26, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose First, I believe that we are to be focusing on one item at a time, not multiple items in a haphazard manner.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 06:12, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

(A) There's nothing "haphazard" about it, and we have previously discussed more than one edit at a time — usually removal of the "On issues of race, bigotry and public perception" section, plus some other edit. (B) I don't see any substantive objection, just a procedural one, which has just been addressed — see (A). Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 12:02, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

I didn't have a chance to get back yesterday, but I realized the first goal here is to reduce content. I will postpone the Soc Sec issue until the reductions have been completed. My suggestion for further reducing content that might take the tension off from that last edit, is to reduce the protest/rally sections. We already have Tea Party protests and the content could easily be transferred there. My suggestion for a remaining para, with a link to the main, is focus on the beginnings and then mention the spread to national, without too much detail. Just generalized. I'd be happy to write up a sample para if anybody is interested.

On the grassroots bit, because there's so much controversy about it (with editors), it is something that needs to be addressed here. We do have to take things one at a time. I just thought something easy, like reducing the protests section, might be something that is easy and could help foster a more collegial atmosphere. The race/bigotry section was stressful for all. (And I agree about the History section with it's "commentaries" subsection. I also agree with transferring the "Other events" section the subarticle.)

Malke 2010 (talk) 13:16, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, maybe leave "grass roots" for later. North8000 (talk) 14:01, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

I think that possibly the most messed up section in the article is the "polling of supporters". It's a wp:synth wp:or fest, about the worst abuse of primary sources I've ever seen, uses hostile op-ed pieces as a "source" of polling data, and has misleading or inaccurate summaries. Many "gems" in there. For example "predominantly white" (any group representative of US polulaiotn is going to be "predominantly white") A good candidate to take a close look at. North8000 (talk) 11:32, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

This article was loaded with gems like that when we started. It was like the home of a hoarder. Now that responsible Wikipedians have taken charge of the situation and we're trying to clean it up, we're going to be hauling rubbish out of here for weeks. Every time we open the door to a new section, there's going to be a little avalanche of garbage falling out. regards ... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 16:19, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Let's get back to work

I think we should get back to work. The article has been substantially improved, but we still have a lot of work to do. SilkTork has left us since he's traveling during the next week and won't have Internet access. The ArbCom case has started up again, so I'm sure we'll all be on our best behavior, and we have a rough framework of rules for future procedure proposed by North8000.

The race/bigotry section and the agenda section were very difficult and stressful for everyone. It seems to me that to a very substantial extent, they are done. There may be some follow-up work to do with the agenda sub-sections, and some tweaking of the language we've already added/changed in that section (including refcites — ). But I think the big problems have been resolved, and we can go forward with some less challenging portions of the article.

Let's get on the stick.

My proposal for three minor improvements will be slightly modified as described below. This is to make it more attractive to those who may have been opposed to the original proposal. Modified portions and some explanation and argument have been added in italics and strikethrough.

1. One thing I think we should take action on immediately is adding the word "grass-roots" (with the Wikilink) to the lede sentence. We were discussing it just before the moderated discussion started. I felt we had consensus for it, since there were so many reliable sources to support it. The allegations about Astroturfing have one or two sources, and are clearly a minority opinion per WP:WEIGHT. Astroturfing allegations have already been presented in the body of the article. If necessary, these can be expanded upon, particularly with footnoted blockquotes from Formisano and Skocpol.
2. Another thing we should consider immediately is removing the Other events section. The removal of the "On issues of race, bigotry and public perception" section has kind of orphaned THIS section. I suggest we cut the length of the paragraph about the gas grill in half, and add both events to the list of bulleted incidents at the end of Perceptions of the Tea Party movement, in chronological order.
3. Also, there's a subsection at the beginning of the "History" section called Commentaries on origin. Nothing there is notable enough to remain in this top-level article. It should be moved to the spin-off article, Perceptions of the Tea Party movement, after the bulleted list of incidents. I think it's important to identify this as "criticism and commentaries," since that's what it is, and identify critics as progressives and anti-tobacco activists, since their motives in raising these criticisms are most likely partisan.

• Strongly support. Now that the "On issues of race, bigotry and public perception" roadblock and the agenda roadblock has have finally been removed, we can move forward with several other items that have been waiting patiently. The "grass-roots" edit, for example, has been waiting for two three months. Let's get these three items done and move on. regards .... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 13:45, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment The addition of grass roots was opposed P&W and you continue to confuse voting with consensus. Otherwise I really don't see the point until the Arbcom position is settled. It ha gone back there because this approach did not work. ----Snowded 04:50, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

There's no confusion on my part, Snowded. The TPm is a grass-roots movement; this is the majority position per WP:WEIGHT. The example that I used in previous incarnations of this thread was the Waterboarding article. Even though a minority of reliable sources, including (at that time) the Vice President of the United States, the Attorney General, and two Deputy Attorneys General were of the opinion that in some cases waterboarding was not torture, a majority of sources stated that it was torture. Accordingly, the first six words of the Waterboarding article are, "Waterboarding is a form of torture" In previous incarnations of this discussion thread over the past six months, I've linked at least 18 reliable sources stating that the TPm is a grass-roots movement. These included both peer-reviewed academic and fact-checked news organization sources. Those editors who opposed the edit cited two sources: one by Ron Formisano, who claims that a few groups associated with TPm are engaged in Astroturfing, and one by Theda Skocpol, who observes that the TPm is neither grass-roots nor Astroturf, but something in between. Even if we count both of these sources as sharing the same minority opinion, it's eighteen to two — clearly a majority opinion and a minority opinion per WP:WEIGHT.

But it isn't even that good for those who oppose the edit, Snowded. It's eighteen for the majority opinion, one for a minority opinion, and one for a different minority opinion, because Formisano and Skocpol don't share the same opinion. Clearly, the authors of the Waterboarding article have shown us how to handle this situation. Review the archives of that article's Talk page. Those who opposed that edit were very determined, but they lost the content dispute. Here, we also see support for treating obvious minority opinions as something other than the minority. This is a policy based argument, Snowded. Policy based arguments, not votes, determine consensus per WP:CLOSE and WP:CONSENSUS. You see, there's no confusion on my part about what constitutes consensus at Misplaced Pages. Do you have a policy based argument?

Next, let's examine your desire to wait until the ArbCom decision. Are you waiting for ArbCom to issue topic bans for one side in the content dispute, and then the other side can have its way? ArbCom doesn't decide content disputes. Policy decides content disputes and here, the policy is WP:WEIGHT. Also, you claim that "this approach did not work." It wasn't allowed to work. The first time, we had consensus and SilkTork shut down the discussion to steer us into "On issues of race, bigotry and public perception." The second time, SilkTork shut down the discussion to steer us into the "Agenda" section. Let's get an admin from WP:AN to close this, and provide him with links to the previous two discussions. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 05:39, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

That response illustrates why the Arbcom resolution is needed before progress can be made ----Snowded 09:46, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Now you are back here - your !vote is solicited above in Lis alibi pendens. Collect (talk) 11:58, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

A month block for a problematic editor on various Philosophy articles has given me some time Collect but I'm not 100% on my continued participation. I'm waiting to see what comes out of the Arbcom ruling. However I have responded to your request and personal hat tip to you by the way. We've had our disagreements over the years but you do seem to be trying to make some progress here. ----Snowded 13:56, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• That response illustrates why the Arbcom resolution is needed before progress can be made Perhaps you'd care to explain, Snowded. I politely provided a fairly thorough policy based argument. Do you have a policy based argument that explains why the edit shouldn't be actioned? If not, why shouldn't the edit be actioned? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 15:36, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I and other editors have explained the issue elsewhere P&W, this is just another manifestation, counting votes, repeating your arguments as if they were uncontroversial conclusions and at length. Sorry been here too many times to go through it all again ----Snowded 02:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree that a persuasive argument has yet to be made, and the past discussions are being misrepresented here as an "18 sources versus just 2 sources" weight discussion, which simply isn't the situation. To use a clearer analogy, if Blitzo Motor Company makes a hybrid car (gas/electric), we don't put a sentence in our article lead about that car saying simply "this car is gasoline-powered". Sure, you can come up with 18 sources that say it runs on gas, and it does, but that isn't the whole truth. It also runs on electricity, and that isn't a "minority opinion", it's a fact - and it remains a fact regardless of how many sources are produced saying so. Xenophrenic (talk) 17:59, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Once again, it's being claimed that a source must also say "There is no part of TPm that is Astroturfed" in order for that source to be counted as a "TPm is grass-roots" source. When a source says "TPm is grass-roots," that necessarily contains the implicit statement, "There is no part of TPm that is Astroturfed." See my previous analogy about the Elephant article. If several reliable sources state, "The elephant is an animal," necessarily implicit in that statement is, "The elephant is not a plant." Finding reliable sources which describe elephant ears as plants, and then trying to insert the statement, "Many scholarly sources have indicated that extensive portions of the elephant are a plant" in the Elephant article, and keep the statement, "The elephant is an animal" out of the lede, is analogous to this effort to describe TPm in this article as Astroturfed. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 15:14, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't see where that claim is being made. Reliable sources say there are many grassroots activists in the movement, which has been significantly astroturfed. Are you claiming, against reliable sources, that there has been no astroturfing of the movement, or are you only claiming that we shouldn't mention that fact in the lead of the article? Xenophrenic (talk) 16:01, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Note: The new posited rules disallow such colloquy - I suggest we start now with not mentioning any editors by name in any post, not even using "you." Collect (talk) 10:47, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• The "explanation" I recall was to focus on Formisano and Skocpol, over and over again, in infinite detail; to dismiss such eminently reliable fact-checked news organizations as The New York Times, Politico and The Washington Post as birdcage liner and fish wrap, compared to the founts of wisdom contained in the pages of a book by a history professor at the University of Kentucky; and to pretend that Elizabeth Price Foley (for example) wasn't at least as reliable, and at least as notable as Ronald P. Formisano. In other words, to claim that seventeen WP:NEWSORG sources (yes, seventeen) plus one WP:SCHOLARSHIP source (Foley) saying

TPm = G

are somehow outweighed by one WP:SCHOLARSHIP source (Formisano) saying

TPm = (1⁄2 G) + (1⁄2 A)

and one WP:SCHOLARSHIP source (Skocpol) saying

TPm = D

(neither A nor G, but something in between). If anyone's recollection of the opposing arguments is any different — or if you have some other, more convincing argument besides

1 + 1 > 18

then please post it, and enlighten me. Because perhaps I'm just too stupid, but I really don't understand why the policy based argument I've just posted is NOT an uncontroversial conclusion. regards ... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 13:52, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• Regarding the removal of the Other events section, and putting that material in the bulleted list of incidents at the end of the Perceptions spin-off article, in chronological order: this is the top-level article in a series on a complex subject, which has at least three satellite articles. Please see WP:N and the notability guideline on WP:EVENT. The vandalism of someone's gas grill, for example, fails notability on several counts for a top-level article. These events clearly belong in the "Perceptions" spin-off article, not this top-level article.

• Regarding removal of the Commentaries on origin subsection and its placement in the "Perceptions" spin-off article, again this fails notability requirements for a top-level article in a series. These are minority opinions at best, and fringe theories at worst. The article in Tobacco Control magazine, especially, has been carefully ignored by mainstream news organizations, and there are well-grounded questions regarding its political motivations. WP:N, WP:WEIGHT and WP:FRINGE all indicate that the spin-off article is where these commentaries belong.

• Again, if anyone would like to offer a policy based argument against any of these three proposed edits, I look forward to your response. regards ... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 14:52, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Just a quick note, P&W: The guidelines you linked above (WP:N and WP:EVENT) apply to notability of an "article", and not to notability of content within an existing article, which is what we are discussing. I made that same mistake years ago, and was corrected by a couple helpful editors. WP:WEIGHT is the applicable guideline here. You should also be aware that content determined to be inappropriate for our main article due to policy reasons is equally inappropriate for a spinoff article. Material is moved to spinoff articles only because it has grown too lengthy or detailed, not because the content "fails notability", "is minority opinion" or "is fringe". Moving it for those reasons means you are trying to create a POV-FORK, and that's against policy. Xenophrenic (talk) 17:59, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• The material does fail notability for the top-level article in a series. See WP:SUMMARY and WP:SPLIT for the official Misplaced Pages guideline. Perhaps the most directly on-point WP policy/guideline is not WP:N, but a section of WP:SUMMARY called WP:DETAIL:

Summary style is based on the premise that information about a topic should not all be contained in a single article since different readers have different needs ... The parent article should have general summary information and the more detailed summaries of each subtopic should be in child articles and in articles on specific subjects.

• Particularly since the list of alleged racist incidents has been moved to the spin-off article, the "Other events" section has been orphaned and should be moved as well. See also WP:SCOPE. Personal opinions held by notable, but partisan individuals about the origins of the Tea Party are beyond the topical scope of this article. The Perceptions article is a more appropriate place for them. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 15:32, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• The material does fail notability for the top-level article in a series. --P&W

There is no "notability" requirement for content, but there are several guidelines on whether content is appropriate for a Misplaced Pages article. However, if content is not policy-compliant for the main article, it is also inappropriate for subarticles. See WP:NNC. Regarding the origins of the movement, that kind of content is definitely within the scope of the main article. The brief paragraph you refer to as commentary actually appears to be a mix of commentary and fact, and should instead be re-written. re: the "Other events" section (that header, frankly, sucks), are you now claiming it is too detailed or long (per WP:DETAIL)? Xenophrenic (talk) 16:55, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• The brief paragraph you refer to as commentary actually appears to be a mix of commentary and fact ... There are no "facts" here at Misplaced Pages, because it doesn't matter whether we as editors believe a statement is true. There are only viewpoints expressed by (and verifiable in) reliable sources — and, when we find enough reliable sources expressing the same viewpoint, it's the majority viewpoint and we are required to treat it as the majority viewpoint. Here, the majority viewpoint per WP:WEIGHT is that the TPm is a grass-roots movement, period, full stop. The Waterboarding article tells us how we should state this majority viewpoint:

"Waterboarding is a form of torture ..."

"The Tea Party movement is an American grass-roots political movement that advocates ..."

• There is no "notability" requirement for content ... WP:SUMMARY, particularly WP:DETAIL, requires that the Perceptions of the Tea Party section must be written as "general summary information" regarding the topical scope of the Perceptions of the Tea Party movement sub-article, which is about allegations of "racism, bigotry and intolerance." It's that "intolerance" bit at the end that steers this discussion. It was alleged that some TPm people in Maryland were "intolerant" of a congressman who voted i favor of the Affordable Care Act, and gave Tea Party members directions to what they thought was that congressman's house as an expression of this "intolerance." These allegations, and the related vandalism of a gas grill at that house in Maryland don't belong in the "general summary information" in the parent article. They belong in the spin-off article. The relevant sections of Misplaced Pages policy/guidelines that govern this are WP:DETAIL and WP:SCOPE. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 18:39, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

You are still arguing to mention grassroots in the lead? As noted several times before, there isn't any real opposition to that (correct me if I'm wrong). The objection is to your suggestion that we cover "grassroots" without also covering "astroturf" in the lead. The prominence of both descriptions, in reliable sources that cover them, requires that we not mention just one of the descriptions, per WP:WEIGHT. That would be misleading to the readers. Xenophrenic (talk) 20:27, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

No it wouldn't mislead readers. Look at the lede to the Waterboarding article. It doesn't mention the viewpoint of several reliable sources that waterboarding, in some circumstances, is not torture but a "harsh interrogation" technique. Do you feel that its failure to mention the minority viewpoint in the article lede is misleading to readers? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 20:53, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it would mislead readers. Look closely at what you just said: "is not torture but a 'harsh interrogation' technique..." -- that is an either/or logic statement, which is a completely different situation. With the Tea Party, the reliable sources say we have an "and" situation ("grassroots activists AND astroturf influence"). And I still don't know what "minority viewpoint" you are talking about. The astroturf aspect of the movement is a fact; minority and majority quantifiers only apply to competing viewpoints. Xenophrenic (talk) 00:58, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Responding to Snowded, it would take quite an effort and major course change by Arbcom to help this, because the case was so badly sent off on a tangent from the start. We need to and should keep trying here.

I am down to a few minutes per day on Misplaced Pages this week and in-depth analysis in beyond me this week. But P & W's ideas look good. I'm not big on worrying about vague characterizations like "grass roots" and no movement is without some purposeful organization / support, but if there ever was a movement where this term applies, TPM is it. North8000 (talk) 16:15, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

In addition to questioning the reliability and bias of the Tobacco Control article, it does not say anything in regard Grassroots v. AstroTurfed. At the most generous interpretation that they know what they're talking about, it says that one TPm organization was funded by (some of the) same people as the anti-anti-tobacco organizations. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:20, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Request for closure

I am about to file a Request for Closure at WP:AN. Accordingly, I've reopened the collapsed subsection that had our mid-June discussion of these three minor improvements. The only objection at that time was Ubikwit saying we should only work on one thing at a time (the agenda section). Now that the agenda section has been substantially improved, we can get back to these three minor issues and get them resolved. Previous discussion at great length may be found here, here and here, during most of the month of April. The closer is asked to review all these discussions over the past three months, and indicate whether we have consensus for each of these three edits. Policy based arguments, not votes, determine consensus per WP:CLOSE and WP:CONSENSUS. regards ... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 13:41, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the minor issue of whether we should mention the Grassroot & AstroTurf aspects of the movement in the lead, or just mention one of those aspects in the lead to the exclusion of the other, it would be informative to note that a similar discussion was had in this mediation. The consensus was that if both descriptions are to appear in the lead, both would appear together. I don't see a change in that consensus, nor a valid argument to the contrary. As for your 2nd and 3rd minor issues, have those been discussed yet in any detail? Xenophrenic (talk) 17:59, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

That mediation was almost three years ago. One of the most active advocates for "Astroturfing" and opponents of "grass-roots" left Misplaced Pages a month later. And a large number of reliable sources, both WP:NEWSORG and WP:SCHOLARSHIP varieties, have been published since then. Regarding the other two proposed edits, there have been abundant opportunities to express concerns and no concerns were expressed, except Ubikwit saying we should only work on one thing at a time. The "one thing" we were working on has now been substantially completed. This has been discussed and tabled off and on for three months. It's time to turn it over to a closing admin and let him (or her) sort it out. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 18:22, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

The other 2 issues haven't been discussed because an editor (and also our Moderator) said we were to work on something else first, and you say the next step is to turn the issues over to an admin? Wouldn't the next step be to begin discussions it first (so the Admin will have something to "sort out")? As for the Grassroots/Astroturf descriptions matter, yes, other sources have been published since then -- and still the facts haven't changed. There are just more sources. Xenophrenic (talk) 18:33, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

On the mediation page we find an enormous number of additional sources (notably The Economist) to join the overwhelming number of reliable sources stating that it's a grass-roots movement. Thanks for providing the link to that wealth of additional reliable sources for the majority opinion per WP:WEIGHT. For the other two proposed edits, the material fails WP:N at for the top-level article in a series, but would be fine for a spin-off article. If there really is a policy based argument against them that has been withheld until now, when a closer has already been requested at WP:AN, please post it immediately rather than just talking about it. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 18:42, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Incorrect. WP:N applies to articles, not content within an article. To quote: The notability guideline does not determine the content of articles, but only whether the topic should have its own article. And as noted above, per policy, if it is against policy in a main article, it is against policy in a sub article. I'm sure a knowledgable "closer" will confirm that for you. Regarding the Grassroots & Astroturfed nature of the movement, neither of those descriptions is "opinion", majority or otherwise (even though the Lexington piece in the Economist is an opinion piece), they are reliably sourced facts. Xenophrenic (talk) 19:39, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:WEIGHT describes them as "viewpoints," not "facts." My mistake, I should have called them "viewpoints," rather than "opinions." One viewpoint — that the TPm is a grass-roots movement, and the fact that some components have accepted corporate donations does not compromise its essentially grass-roots nature — is clearly supported by a majority of the reliable sources, including Elizabeth Price Foley in her peer-reviewed works, The New York Times, The Washington Post, CBS News, National Public Radio and many other fact-checked news organizations. The other viewpoints are each supported by a small minority of the reliable sources. Regarding WP:N, that policy directs editors to several guidelines, one of which is WP:EVENT. There are various subsections within that guidelines such as WP:EFFECT, WP:INDEPTH, and WP:GEOSCOPE which provide clear guidance in demoting such events as the vandalism of someone's gas grill in Maryland to the spin-off article. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 20:38, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

To be more specific about what the reliable sources convey, the TPm consists of both grassroots activists as well as big-monied players and professional politicos, thinktanks and conservative elites that have sought to direct, fund, coordinate and use these "grassroots" efforts. And this fact is neither minority nor majority viewpoint. What "other" viewpoints are you speaking of? Regarding your alphabet-soup of policy links, please simply quote the section of the policy you are acting under, and the content you are applying it to, and let's discuss it. All the ones you linked do not apply here. They apply to the creation of Misplaced Pages articles. Xenophrenic (talk) 20:56, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

The fact that some RS support "A + G" while others support "G" does not negate the fact that the ones supporting "G" vastly outnumber the ones supporting "A + G" and are therefore the majority per WP:WEIGHT. Is there any argument in favor of treating "Astroturfed plus grass-roots" as the majority viewpoint? How many reliable sources support this viewpoint? We've been over this exhaustively. Many of the sources just don't support "Astroturfed plus grass-roots." Some, such as NPR ask the question "Is TPm Astroturfed plus grass-roots?" but do not answer "yes." Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 22:04, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

The fact that the movement has genuine grassroots activists in it is a majority viewpoint (as contrasted with not having grassroots activists in it), not the majority viewpoint. It is also a "majority viewpoint" that the movement has been extensively astroturfed, is conservative, takes stances on fiscal issues, had influence in the 2010 elections, etc. Minority viewpoints, for example, would be the ones saying there are no grassroots activists in the movement, or there is no astroturf influencing of the movement, or that the movement had no influence on the 2010 elections. The fact that RS saying the TP movement is concervative vastly outnumber the ones mentioning grassroots doesn't mean the grassroots description is a minority viewpoint. Xenophrenic (talk) 10:25, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Extended discussion of grass-roots and astroturf

• Please use colons to indent properly when responding per WP:TALK policy.

• It is also a "majority viewpoint" that the movement has been extensively astroturfed ... This is a false statement.

• Minority viewpoints, for example, would be the ones saying ... there is no astroturf influencing of the movement ... This is also a false statement. What makes these false statements is the overwhelming number of sources saying, "It's a grass-roots movement," without any hesitation or qualification (including not only both peer-reviewed academic and fact-checked news organization sources, but also the Tea Party groups themselves, which must be considered reliable in this limited context under WP:SELFSOURCE), compared to the ones like Formisano saying, "It's partially Astroturfed." The ratio is at least 3-to-1 and may be as high as 10-to-1.

• Most of the sources presented in this three-year discussion, which were claimed by some editors to say, "It's partially Astroturfed," turned out after investigation to be either (A) not actually saying that or (B) the opinion of some notable, but highly partisan opponent of the Tea Party, such as Nancy Pelosi or Paul Krugman. These minority opinions are already properly attributed and quoted farther down in the article, and no one is suggesting they should be removed.

• Now then, if there is a genuinely policy based argument to be made against any of these three edits, please post it. "It's partially Astroturfed" is obviously a minority viewpoint per WP:WEIGHT. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 11:22, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Colons were used to indent properly (check the edit history); that the movement has an astroturfed component is the majority viewpoint, and trying to say it has absolutely no astroturfing involved is the minority viewpoint; Pelosi and Krugman are being cited for their opinions only; can't comment on the other two edits, as they haven't really been discussed. Xenophrenic (talk) 16:01, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• that the movement has an astroturfed component is the majority viewpoint ... This is a false statement. We've been over all these sources with a fine-toothed comb. Out of all the claims that this is the majority viewpoint, here is the single grain of truth: Formisano says that the Institute For Liberty (IFL) is an Astroturfed TPm component. However, IFL doesn't identify itself as part of the TPm, and I've never seen any other source identify IFL as part of the TPm.

• There is no valid policy based argument opposing any of these three edits. From WP:CLOSE: "The closer is there to judge the consensus of the community, after discarding irrelevant arguments: those that flatly contradict established policy, those based on personal opinion only, those that are logically fallacious, those that show no understanding of the matter of issue. ... He (or she) is not expected to decide the issue, just to judge the result of the debate, and is expected to know policy sufficiently enough to know what arguments are to be excluded as irrelevant." Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 03:37, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Adding an unqualified statement, such as "The Tea Party is a grassroots movement.", to the lede would not satisfy WP:NPOV anymore than using "astroturf" in lede would.

Considered in its entirety, the Tea Party is neither a top-down creation nor a bottom-up explosion. This remarkable political outpouring is best understood as a combination of three intertwined forces. Each force is important in its own right, and their interaction is what gives the Tea Party its dynamism, drama, and wallop. ...snip... Grassroots activists, roving billionaire advocates, and right-wing media purveyors—these three forces, together, create the Tea Party...
— Skocpol, T.; Williamson, V. (2012). The Tea Party and the Remaking of Republican Conservatism. Oxford University Press. ISBN 9780199832637.

More weight is accorded to sources that actually discuss the meaning of "grassroots" as it applies to the Tea Party movement. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 07:25, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I would hardly call it "unqualified". But, if I'm to read your comment correctly -- You feel the use of grassroots ought not be construed as all-encompassing.

My solution: The Tea Party is a political movement primarily based in grassroots activism. †TE†Talk 14:22, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

• More weight is accorded to sources that actually discuss the meaning of "grassroots" as it applies to the Tea Party movement. YES. EXACTLY. I simply could not agree with you more on this point. After an insightful observation like that one, you could be my new best friend.

• Generally speaking, those sources that have endeavored to define TPm as "Astroturfed" or "partially Astroturfed" have consistently attempted to redefine the word "Astroturfed" in a much more expansive manner. The expanded definition is intended by these sources to include activities that were never perceived as Astroturfing before. The term was first coined in the 1980s and 1990s, when paid political and corporate operatives were each pretending to be several ordinary people at once, writing letters to congressmen, senators, and the editors of major newspapers and news magazines, artificially manufacturing the appearance of a grass-roots movement, or popular support or opposition to a particular thing, where there was none.

• This term was and continues to be a well-recognized and well-understood term in the political science lexicon. Its meaning has never actually changed, unless you can demonstrate a consensus across all of political science, discussing all movements and all activities by political and corporate operatives, that supports such a change in the definition. The meaning is limited to the activities I've described: pretending to be the elements of a grass-roots movement where no such elements exist.

• In this case, not even Ronald P. Formisano has claimed that there are absolutely zero grass-roots elements in the Tea Party movement. The effect of corporate involvement, and involvement by established political parties (the Republican Party) and conservative leaning news media (Fox News, Daily Caller and the like) is only to amplify these grass-roots elements — elements that genuinely do exist.

• There was a video teleconference recorded and posted by The Huffington Post where political experts were discussing this effort to change and expand the definition of the term "Astroturfing." I've posted the link to it at least twice and will try to find it again, and post it again. But yes, my new best friend, more WP:WEIGHT is accorded to sources that actually discuss the meaning of "grass-roots" as it applies to TPm without attempting to change the meaning of that long-established term of art, to include activities that, had Barack Obama and Organizing for America engaged in them, would be cheerfully described by the very same sources as "community organizing."

• The difference here is that the community that's being organized is much more fiscally conservative. And that's really the biggest and most salient difference between the community organizing that's being done by the Koch Brothers, and the community organizing that was done by Barack Obama. Opponents and critics of the movement tend to focus instead on the fact that the Tea Party is mostly white. Considering that some of the most beloved candidates of the Tea Party have included Herman Cain, Mia Love, Allen West, Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, race is simply not the salient factor. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 14:37, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to skip past the new twists on old memes above ("It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is." and "Some of my best friends are black.") and comment on these:

• You feel the use of grassroots ought not be construed as all-encompassing. My solution: The Tea Party is a political movement primarily based in grassroots activism. --TE

That's a tiny step in the right direction, but still leaves us saying that the hybrid car "runs primarily on gasoline" to the neglect of mentioning that it also runs on electricity. By "unqualified statement", I think the other editor is noting that most sources (and this is particularily true of news media sources) use words like 'grassroots', 'conservative', 'anti-tax movement', without qualification because they are convenient and true, but our article would be remiss and misleading if it mentioned taxes without also mentioning spending, or mentioned conservative without also mentioning libertarian, or mentioned grassroots without also mentioning astroturfed.

If we look at sources that actually discuss the meaning of "grassroots" as it applies to the Tea Party movement as suggested above, we see that the description is most frequently applied to the masses of Americans upset at proposed bailouts (activists), not a movement, which was actually developed by more than just grassroots activists.

• not even Ronald P. Formisano has claimed that there are absolutely zero grass-roots elements in the Tea Party movement --P&W

Nor have any Misplaced Pages editors, as far as I know. That's not where the disagreement is here. Xenophrenic (talk) 16:30, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Why waste so much precious time on the trivial -- Are we still stuck in the past? Astroturfing allegations were fun while they lasted, but the world has moved on. Since mentioned above, I decided to do a count:
The Tea Party and the Remaking of Republican Conservatism
Vanessa Williamson, Theda Skocpol, and John Coggin

• Grassroots - 24 29 †TE†Talk 22:25, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
• Astroturf - 0

It's time to let go. †TE†Talk 19:37, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Oooh, how very scientific! Your count is off, by the way. It's 29 to 0; but even at 29 the mentions of "grassroots" are still outnumbered by mentions of Elites and Funders of the movement. Not a single mention of a "grassroots movement", but plenty of references to activists, adherents and TPers that are one part of it. Oh, and did you realize several of those "grassroots" are mentions of other conservatives from the past, not TPers? Or is it at all important to you that most of those "grassroots" mentions actually are questioning or qualifying that term?

... has been beset with controversy about its grassroots authenticity ... These elites have long since developed a policymaking infrastructure in Washington, but had previously achieved only limited success in directly connecting themselves to an activist grassroots base ... and how grassroots undertakings relate to the Republican Party and to national organizations claiming to further Tea Party efforts ... (TPP), whose website was up and running within days of the original Santelli rant, has been more closely associated with grassroots activism than TPE ... TPP rhetoric and the group’s homespun website gives the impression of an entirely grassroots, volunteer-run organization ... dubs itself the “official grassroots American movement” ... not clear how much grassroots Tea Partiers know about the national advocacy and funding organizations promoting and trying to capitalize on their efforts ... a partnership formalizing long-time ties between the pro-business lobby and the conservative media’s grassroots mobilization efforts ... conservative media’s social coordination of willing local activists and participants, the anti-regulation big-business lobby could harness new grassroots networks to accompany their already powerful DC presence ... elite Tea Party funders and grassroots activists ...

But we wouldn't want to let a little thing like context get in the way. No one is arguing that there are not genuine grassroots activists in the movement; the disagreement with reliable sourcing only arises when a suggestion is made to describe the movement only as "grassroots". Sorry to see you move on, Xenophrenic (talk) 21:23, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

OR/SYN. Personal beliefs of what constitutes astroturf has no place in the mainspace. †TE†Talk 22:25, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

None were stated. The concern is over describing the movement as only grassroots. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 03:36, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with the reliable sources' research or synthesis, and it appears to be well-founded conclusion rather than "personal belief". Are we speaking of the same reliable sources? We can raise the issue at WP:RSN to verify if they have a place in mainspace, if needed. Xenophrenic (talk) 12:27, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Just doing my best to abide by Rule 1. Unfortunately, I must break it to avoid further misunderstanding: "Your personal beliefs of what constitutes astroturf has no place in the mainspace."

It's quite clear that if the RS wanted to use the term "astroturf," they were free to do so. Elites and Funders, your personal opinions of what is established by their presence, has no bearing here. †TE†Talk 16:02, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Of course Misplaced Pages editor opinions and beliefs have no place in mainspace; yours nor mine. I don't see why you feel compelled to state the obvious. We're discussing reliable sources, aren't we? Now returning to those, we see that funding sources and elite establishment influence are indeed important components when describing astroturf/grassroots. Skocpol, Williamson, Formisano and other reliable sources all clearly indicate that the TP movement cannot be described as wholly "grassroots". Our Misplaced Pages article shouldn't either, nor should it misleadingly imply it by inserting the unqualified 'grassroots' description in the lead to the exclusion of the other aspects. The RS does use the term astroturf (and "not grassroots" and "top-down" and "co-opted" and "faux-grassroots" ...) if you've examined their fuller work on the matter.

"Many supporters also proclaim the Tea Party to be purely a grassroots rebellion, a "mass movement of ... 'regular' Americans with real concerns about losing the right to live their lives as they choose." This view captures only a small part of the truth, ignoring the fact that Tea Party participants are in many respects even more ideologically extreme than other very conservative Republicans. Similarly, the ‘mass movement’ portrayal overlooks the fact that the Tea Party, understood in its entirety, includes media hosts and wealthy political action committees, plus national advocacy groups and self-proclaimed spokespersons – elites that wield many millions of dollars in political contributions and appear all over the media claiming to speak for grassroots activists who certainly have not elected them, and to whom they are not accountable. What kind of mass rebellion is funded by corporate billionaires, like the Koch brothers, led by over-the-hill former GOP kingpins like Dick Armey, and ceaselessly promoted by millionaires media celebrities like Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity?”

Xenophrenic (talk) 21:01, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Finally, something we can agree on: "he TP movement cannot be described as wholly 'grassroots'." There's no such thing in this day and age that could gain a foothold in American politics. You need some muscle behind that hustle. The point of contention is erroneously throwing the term astroturf about as if it's suddenly been redefined. So and so says astroturf, I'm sure there's a place for it in this BLP, attributed, but would be a stretch to consider it lead-worthy. Weight and all. On "their fuller work," I'm of limited resources. I have overdue books, my google machine is the best I can do. But it's not all bad. For instance, by using parts of your excerpt, my google machine led me to the very text that completes said excerpt, for context:

The opposite illusion is also there among those who proclaim the Tea Party to be nothing more than an "astroturf" phenomenon, an illusion pushed by Fox News, or a "billionaire's tea party" in which "corporate America is faking a grassroots revolution." This take on the Tea Party as a kabuki dance entirely manipulated from above simply cannot do justice to the volunteer engagement of many thousands of men and women who travel to rallies with their homemade signs and, even more remarkably, have formed ongoing, regularly meeting local Tea Party groups. The citizens we have met, who spend hours meeting with one another, arguing with officials, and learning about the workings of local, state, and national government—these people do not fit the caricatures espoused by some on the left. They are unglamorous, mostly older middle-class Americans. Billionaire-funded political action committees and longtime free-market advocacy organizations are certainly doing all they can to leverage and benefit from Tea Party activism. But they did not create all that activism in the first place, nor do they entirely control the popular effervescence.

Hope this helps. †TE†Talk 22:31, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think we've ever disagreed on that part; the movement is neither wholly grassroots or astroturfed. I provided the paragraph that shows the movement isn't entirely grassroots, and you just added the paragraph that shows the movement isn't entirely astroturfed. (By the way, I have dead-tree copies of each of the above sources if Google's "preview" function fails you.) No one has "redefined" astroturf or grassroots here. Neither grassroots nor astroturf needs to be attributed to "so and so", unless you suggest we start citing opinion pieces, and I'd recommend against that. (Pssst ... by the way, this isn't a BLP.) See more of this same discussion below. Xenophrenic (talk) 00:58, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

What I posted, when the RS actually used the phrase astroturf, in parenthesis, shot it down with the quickness. And this is very much a BLP. †TE†Talk 02:02, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

By "in parenthesis", did you mean "in quotes"? If so, the only thing shot down was the notion that the movement is "nothing more than" or "entirely manipulated" or "entirely controlled" astroturf, and no one is suggesting it is. Like I said, we've never disagreed on that point. And no, Tea Party movement is not a Biography of a Living Person. Just go to WP:BLPN and search the archives for "tea party" and see for yourself, as that one has been tried a couple times before. If you meant that BLP rules still apply to living people regardless of what article they are mentioned in, then we agree. Xenophrenic (talk) 02:51, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

"Quotes" would be the safe assumption. But, I guess it's always good to ask so as to avoid any further misunderstanding. Those "quotes" have a funny way of surrounding what the RS finds to be fringe viewpoints. If you would like, I propose we use the RS as a counterpoint to the Pelosi/Krugman '09 astroturf allegations. In their same quotation form. †TE†Talk 03:16, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

• Please stop beating your dead horse. It's dead.

• It's 29 to 0; but even at 29 the mentions of "grassroots" are still outnumbered by mentions of Elites and Funders of the movement. "Elites and funders" do not equal "Astroturf," except in the opinion of Ron Formisano. None of these 29 sources describes the activities of these "elites and funders" as Astroturfing, nor does any of these 29 sources describe what they're doing as having a compromising or diluting effect on the essential grass-roots nature of the movement. All they're doing is amplifying the genuine grass-roots elements that are actually there. And as I said before, these very same activities would be described as "community organizing" without the slightest hesitation, rather than "Astroturfing," if it was Barack Obama and Organizing for America instead of conservatives with money. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 04:08, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

29 sources? No, that is a single source, with 29 iterations of the word "grassroots" used to describe what is and is not grassroots, and yes they do describe the activities of the funders and established elites. Xenophrenic (talk) 21:01, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

• I agree: There is no source which calls the movement Astroturfed, which doesn't (1) redefine Astroturfed to include any corporate funding, nor (2) quotes political opponents of the movement. I could almost support a statement that it's a grass-roots movement said to be Astroturfed, but even that doesn't seem to be correct. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 10:12, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

It's true that (1) RS include funding sources in their definitions of grassroots and astroturfing (not "redefine", as funding sources have been part of the definition since the terms were created). (2) None of the sources we're presently discussing "quotes political opponents of the movement", so perhaps Arthur Rubin would be so kind as to indicate which sources he's talking about. Even our Misplaced Pages article notes that "grassroots" implies that the creation of the movement and the group supporting it are natural and spontaneous, highlighting the differences between this and a movement that is orchestrated by traditional power structures. While the reliable sources note there are grassroots activists, they also note the "movement" is controlled, directed and funded by traditional special interests. Why all the aversion to conveying what the reliable sources actually say? Xenophrenic (talk) 12:27, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

• (not "redefine", as funding sources have been part of the definition since the terms were created) There are other essential elements of the definition of "Astroturfing," and they've been essential elements of the definition since the term was created in the '80s. Not just (A) corporate and PAC money, but also (B) a genuine Astroturfing operation conceals the source of the money, and (C) one political or corporate operative pretends to be several people at once — and the people he's pretending to be have no connection to the source of the money. Is there any evidence of anything like either (B) or (C) going on here? Both are essential elements of the political science term "Astroturfing."
• If the TPm does not have both (B) and (C), then what's happening here is called "community organizing." Rich, powerful people are simply providing funds to make sure that all of the very real, grass-roots people who share their beliefs show up at the next protest, or the next election. And without (B) and (C), individuals like Ronald P. Formisano are most certainly trying to redefine "Astroturfing" to include activities that would have made Barack Obama one of the most notorious Astroturfers in the history of politics.
• Here's the link to that Huffington Post video of a discussion about the definition of Astroturfing. According to my new best friend ArtifexMayhem, this source deserves more weight than Formisano because it actually discusses the definition of the word it's using. This is a 30-minute video but it's worth a very careful review. Watch for the comments by Edward Walker, the guy with eyeglasses who had to connect to the discussion via telephone, and John Hawkins, the guy wearing the headset. They're the ones who, in my opinion, really hit all the points we've been talking about. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 13:40, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm the last person to break up a beautiful friendship, but AM said nothing specifically about that video clip and I think you may have missed his/her point. What was said is, "More weight is accorded to sources that actually discuss the meaning of 'grassroots' as it applies to the Tea Party movement." This video clip source is indeed more weighty than one of the many news reports that merely stick in the word "grassroots" by rote when reporting about a protest or activist, etc., (you are up to 18 now, you said?). But that puts it on par with Formisano's The Tea Party: A Brief History, which goes to great lengths to discuss the grassroots and astroturfed aspects as they apply to the Tea Party. Same with Skocpol & Williamson's The Tea Party and the Remaking of Republican Conservatism. Starting at 26:30, Walker gives an accurate popular astroturf versus grassroots description, which doesn't contradict what reliable sources have been saying. He admits he is "unclear" about co-opting, and who co-opted whom, but he does acknowledge the grassroots activists, although he gets the timeline wrong about involvement in the movement. Walker is one of the lead proponents of the line of thought that (and I quote him) "The dividing line between “grassroots” and “Astroturf” may be more of a political Rorschach test than a precisely measurable concept. But, in any case, changing relationships between companies and the public—especially in the health domain—are leading more and more industries to institute grassroots mobilization programs." (See the "grassroots lobbying" form of astroturfing.)

• And as I said before... --P&W

Repeated time and again, yes, without much change in the discussion. Instead of continuing to spin our wheels, how about we try to move the discussion forward? Maybe if we first developed this topic better in the body of the article, then summarize that content in the lead? Xenophrenic (talk) 21:01, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it has been repeated — and no argument has been presented for inclusion of "astroturf". But perhaps we should concentrate on other matters. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:02, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Except for the arguments that have been presented for inclusion of astroturf, but you would not be expected to know about those. Xenophrenic (talk) 00:58, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

"(See the "grassroots lobbying" form of astroturfing.)" - Xenophrenic

All I've seen was not one mention of astroturfing. OR/SYN has no place in the mainspace. †TE†Talk 02:09, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with the reliable sources' research or synthesis, and it appears to be well-founded conclusion rather than "personal belief". Xenophrenic (talk) 02:51, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Just doing my best to abide by Rule 1. Unfortunately, I must break it to avoid further misunderstanding: "Your OR/SYN has no place in the mainspace." †TE†Talk 03:07, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Of course Misplaced Pages editor opinions and beliefs have no place in mainspace; yours nor mine. I don't see why you feel compelled to state the obvious. We're discussing reliable sources, aren't we? I don't see where I've placed "OR/SYN" in mainspace, or even made a proposal that we do so. Maybe some other editor? Xenophrenic (talk) 03:26, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

"rassroots mobilization programs being referred to are astroturf" - Xenophrenic

Well, definitely not in the source provided. Which is why I sometimes feel compelled to state, and restate the obvious. †TE†Talk 03:33, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

• I'm the last person to break up a beautiful friendship, but AM said nothing specifically about that video clip ... Specifically, AM said, "More weight is accorded to sources that actually discuss the meaning of 'grassroots' as it applies to the Tea Party movement." He did not include Formisano specifically, but the HuffPo video clip is included by definition because it actually discusses the meaning of that word. Formisano does discuss the grass-roots aspects, and what he's trying to redefine as "astroturfed" aspects of TPm. But he never really talks about what Astroturf means, let alone admit that he's trying to expand the definition by leaps and bounds. The multiple experts in the HuffPo clip do talk about what the word means. And it does not mean merely donating money to a Tea Party group. So no, according to AM, the HuffPo video clip deserves more weight than Formisano's book.

• "... are leading more and more industries to institute grassroots mobilization programs." Right. "GRASSROOTS mobilization programs." Community organizing. Not Astroturf. I think it's important to make it very clear how few of these sources actually say, "The Tea Party movement is partially Astroturfed." Skocpol doesn't say it, for example. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 02:31, 13 July 2013 (UTC)