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| {{Not around|may have left Misplaced Pages|Wnt|July 2019}} | |||
| ''For comments February 2008 to December 2010 see ].'' | |||
| ''For comments February 2008 to December 2010 see ].''<br /> | |||
| == ANI notice == | |||
| ''For comments December 2010 to December 2013 see ].''<br /> | |||
| Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at ] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is ]. <!--Template:ANI-notice--> Thank you. ] (]) 02:55, 9 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ''For comments January 2014 to December 2014 see ].''<br /> | |||
| ''For comments January 2015 to December 2018 see ].''<br /> | |||
| ''For comments January 2019 to June 2019 see ].''<br /> | |||
| '''''Please add new comments at the bottom, not here.''''' | |||
| :In addition to the above, there is now a sub-section, ] where claims about your actions are being discussed. __] (]) 13:35, 9 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ==]== | |||
| Wnt, concerning your actions at the ] article, you are definitely doing some good work, but other actions are becoming disruptive. For example, this was a personal attack on another editor. Also, your comments about what sources are and are not appropriate, are also incorrect. Primary sources cannot be used to source controversial information. As soon as information is "challenged or likely to be challenged", sourcing requirements become more stringent. See ]. The best way to proceed from this point is to ensure that anything added to the article, is accompanied by a ]. Thanks, --]]] 14:56, 10 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I dispute that the above was a personal attack on an editor. I also dispute your reading of WP:V, which to ''me'' reads, "This policy requires that all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged be attributed to a reliable, published source in the form of an inline citation, and that the source directly support the material in question." Now there is almost no doubt in my mind that the CFDI list leak is both reliable and published, since that's what all the papers have been saying for the past three days. The policy specifically says that "primary sources are normally welcome". And I'm not sure the CFDI list, compiled by DHS working with other federal agencies, is actually primary anyway. | |||
| :Put it this way: suppose I make an article for a set of election results. Is it OK if I rely on the government agency that compiled the results? Or do I have to independently track down some newspaper that published each of the numbers? I really don't think so, and certainly it ''shouldn't'' be necessary. ] (]) 15:07, 10 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :: Thank you for refactoring your comment at the article talkpage. As for the sourcing question, the issue is as to whether or not the information is challenged. If you posted election results sourced to a primary source, and no one challenged the information or source, then that would probably be fine. But as soon as someone else came in and said, "Hey, those results are wrong," or "That's not a good source," then the sourcing requirements go up, and it would be necessary to add reliable secondary sources to back up anything that had been challenged. --]]] 15:14, 10 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::(ec) In the interests of diplomacy - and because I mistakenly thought when writing the above that OhConfucius was acting on his own, rather than because you had suggested him to do those things - I've redacted the comment you mentioned.<sup></sup> This is not an acknowledgment of any wrongdoing, as such actions generally warrant a sternly worded protest, but simply a recognition of the broader circumstance. ] (]) 15:17, 10 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::: I understand that a source can be challenged if people think it's wrong. However, I don't see ''any'' such challenge about the CFDI list. I must have read two dozen stories about this by now, and all of them accept that the leaked CFDI list is accurate. I actually have ''room'' for doubt in my mind, and would note if some of the items were being challenged as not really having been on the list, but there's been no call for it. ] (]) 15:19, 10 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::: If there are two dozen reliable sources about the list, then by all means use those instead. That would make for a very solid, reliably sourced article. --]]] 15:28, 10 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: The articles are newspaper articles. They don't have space for the entire list of nearly 300 items. They mention some here and there, and Silverseren has been doing a heroic job of referencing the list items mentioned by some source or other specifically. But the point is, there's no dispute that the Wikileaks publication of the list is authentic. It's not a "challenged" source, and it is the definitive source. ] (]) 15:32, 10 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: Judging by the edits on the article, the source most definitely has been challenged. Therefore it should be replaced with something more reliable. Also, look at it this way: You want to make a Misplaced Pages article which lists things that are on a primary source list. If no other reliable sources are covering the items on that list, then how is the information even notable enough for a Misplaced Pages article? See ]. Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Neither is it a news source. See especially ]. We are just an encyclopedia. The best way to write the article is to make it a summary of the controversy about the list, and there appear to be plenty of sources about that, so stick with what those sources say, and don't worry about the raw list data. --]]] 15:41, 10 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Here's WP:STATS in its entirety: "Long and sprawling lists of statistics may be confusing to readers and reduce the readability and neatness of our articles. In addition, articles should contain sufficient explanatory text to put statistics within the article in their proper context for a general reader. In cases where this may be necessary, (e.g. ]), consider using tables to enhance the readability of lengthy data lists." Does that really sound to you like a mandate to take out the list? And the notability threshold has ''long'' since been met for this article; you don't have to argue notability for every single fact ''in'' an article. ] (]) 15:47, 10 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::: It boils down to this: Anything that you wish to put into the article, must include a reliable source. If you don't have a reliable secondary source for information, then don't add that information until such a source becomes available. --]]] 15:55, 10 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::: I fear we are repeating ourselves. And you say "reliable source" then "reliable secondary source" - which is it? I am loath to start up a thread on yet another noticeboard, but if we're having this much trouble making any headway, maybe we need to go to ]? Because one of us is just plain ''wrong'', and I don't think it's me! ] (]) 15:59, 10 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::{{tps}} Just to say; ''But as soon as someone else came in and said, "Hey, those results are wrong," or "That's not a good source," then the sourcing requirements go up, and it would be necessary to add reliable secondary sources to back up anything that had been challenged'' is complete nonsense (no offence). This is actually two issues. If someone came forward and said "Hey, those results are wrong" and ''and could provide a reliable source to back that up'', then there is an issue. If they say "that's not a good source" then we debate why. However, just because information is challenged does not mean we cannot use primary sources; sure, the sources need to be good. But in this case primary sourcing is used correctly and as advised. --''']''' {{sup|(])}} 18:11, 10 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Assertions of users having made ] (PA) on another user is always a very serious allegation. Such allegations should of course only be presented if the attack is indeed that. In the case of the edit made by Wnt which you label as a PA, the closest example we find at ] seems to be "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence", but obviously even that criterion does not describe Wnt's criticism of <s>Viriditas</s> Ohconfucius. Strictly to-the-point criticism (even, as in this case, accompanied by a critical comparison—"run of the mill Misplaced Pages deletionist") should never be painted out as a PA. <s>As you will be able to appreciate from my post at ] (should you not already have read it) the criticism against Viriditas is not frivolous or unfounded and it stems from multiple quarters (evident at ]).</s> I urge you to be more discerning in making the distinction between acceptable criticism and personal attacks as introductions into these conflicts of claims of the latter can swiftly cause the conflict level to mount. __] (]) 16:24, 10 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Actually the user above was Ohconfucius rather than Viriditas; though I can see from your quotes that you're talking about the same post the other discussion is irrelevant. In any case Ohconfucius was acting on the urging of an administrator speaking "ex cathedra", as Stephan Schultz put it, so my remarks were somewhat misplaced. ] (]) 16:31, 10 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Good to have that (those) misunderstanding(s) cleared up! I've very recently been in conflict with Ohconfucius at the 2010 Nobel Peace Prize article, so I was rather quick to jump the gun myself here. Apologies to Viriditas for bringing their name into this section for no good reason! __] (]) 23:43, 10 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ==New Zealand shooting video threat== | |||
| == The Original Barnstar == | |||
| Just so we're crystal clear: If you ''ever'' come through on that threat to undermine the project in such a despicable way, you'll be indeffed so fast your head will spin. ] 00:36, 29 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :Straight to indef if I were to add a single citation? Interesting. I hope that Jan Eissfeldt and his team will take a more nuanced approach to administering the site once they get the kinks worked out of their transition. Trust me -- after that last show of support, I have no further interest in supporting ''any'' protest action against their authority. This is their site and they will do what they wish with it. ] (]) 00:45, 29 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| {| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;" | |||
| |rowspan="2" valign="middle" | {{#ifeq:alt|alt|]|]}} | |||
| |rowspan="2" | | |||
| |style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Original Barnstar''' | |||
| |- | |||
| |style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | I, ] hereby award you the '''Original Barnstar''' for ] and taking the initiative to create the ] following ] ]. I hope that the article, and the ensuing drama won't take its toll on you. Cheers! ] (]) 16:17, 12 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| |} | |||
| ::Frankly, I considered indeffing you right on the spot. You can't use the crisis of confidence with the Foundation as pretext for such outrageous disruption. ] 00:52, 29 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| == Talkback == | |||
| And then you even go on to have a play-by-play () of the video itself — what are you on about? ] 00:42, 29 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| {{talkback|Silver seren}} <font color="silver">]</font><font color="blue">]</font><sup>]</sup> 02:15, 13 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Normally I answer questions, but I was just threatened with being blocked if I continued expressing my disagreement with the posters there, so I literally have nothing to say to you. ] (]) 00:45, 29 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| * You might want to know about discussion, where she has copied over her Work1 into AN. <font color="silver">]</font><font color="blue">]</font><sup>]</sup> 02:27, 13 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::The question was mostly rhetorical, anyway. I don't expect you to say anything, just to listen and reflect. ] 00:52, 29 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| == December 2010 == | |||
| ] Welcome to Misplaced Pages. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, you are reminded not to ] other editors. Please comment on the contributions and not the contributors. Take a look at the ] to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. You are welcome to rephrase your comment as a civil criticism of the article. Thank you.<!-- Template:uw-npa1 --> | |||
| Wnt, I have referred to this conversation at El C's talk, just to advise you of that. I have no wish to directly engage with you. ] 02:22, 29 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| You recently attacked ] on ], in the thread "Object to Elonka reformatting this thread". You tried to poison the well, claiming that her interest in cryptography conflicts with her role as an Administrator and editor who is concerned about the use of primary sources on Misplaced Pages. In the future, please remember to comment on content, not on the contributor. Polite and effective discourse requires avoiding the personalizing of issues. Thanks for your attention. ] (]) 22:56, 13 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ===Block=== | |||
| <div class="user-block" style="min-height: 40px">]<div style="margin-left:45px">You have been ''']''' ''']''' from editing for It's one thing to discuss adding the link to Misplaced Pages, it's wholly another to actually do it. I realize that blocking you for something that happened a month ago is likely to be challenged, but in light of , it is the last straw for me. </div><div style="margin-left:45px">If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the ], then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page: <!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. Do not include the "tlx|" code. -->{{tlx|unblock|2=reason=''Your reason here ~~~~''}}. </div></div><!-- Template:uw-blockindef --> ] 03:04, 29 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :{{ping|El C}} - I don't quite agree that past events should be considered as last straws... ''']] (])''' 03:14, 29 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :], which you cited above, specifically says "pointing out an editor's relevant conflict of interest and its relevance to the discussion at hand is not considered a personal attack". ] (]) 23:42, 13 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::You're just poisoning the well. Having a professional interest in cryptography (she writes about it) is not a COI, and you haven't shown a COI. Instead, what you have done and continue to do, is make accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. These accusations are serious accusations, and as such, you require serious evidence. We all know you don't have any, so this is clearly an overt smear intended to malign your opponent. This is the kind of bad behavior that got your buddy Meco kicked off the no.wikipedia.org. Please note the difference between an unsubstantiated smear and a fact. And, do not think for a minute that anyone missed how you and others ratcheted up the rhetoric in every discussion, accusing people who disagree with you of "censorship". The jig is up, my friend, and the personal attacks will stop, one way or another. ] (]) 23:52, 13 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Let me clarify the implicit logic. As per the source cited, she had direct physical access to an area of CIA headquarters that is off limits to the public. This was incidental to her addressing CIA workers. To do so, she must have a security clearance. To retain her security clearance, she is required to toe the line on Wikileaked "classified documents" (according to her own sources that she's been posting). And ] "involves contributing to Misplaced Pages in order to promote your own interests or those of other individuals, companies, or groups". So this is squarely within the legitimate discussion of COI. If ''this'' were improper, then the COI policy might as well be thrown out because no one could raise the issue without defying policy themselves. ] (]) 23:59, 13 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yeah, keep trying to poison the well. Let's see how well that works out for you. ] (]) 00:01, 14 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: I'd say start an Administrators' Noticeboard thread if you want, but as it happens, I made the comment ''on'' the Administrators' Noticeboard. So I suppose that if this is not a proper argument to make, I'll find out. ] (]) 00:12, 14 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Your thought process is faulty. Best practice on large noticeboard discussions I'd to ''ignore'' them where they occur, and comment on the user talk page. Have you had any response? Why am I here? ] (]) 00:21, 14 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I don't understand what you mean. I don't think we're getting anywhere here. ] (]) 00:22, 14 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::In the context of on-topic noticeboard discussions, ] rules the day, with comments about the attacks best left on user talk pages. ] (]) 00:28, 14 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::That's an essay, so it doesn't rule anything, but in any case, I think we've pretty much talked this to death, and made our positions clear to one another. ] (]) 00:35, 14 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Misplaced Pages runs, first and foremost, on the spirit of the rules, not the letter of the law. This essay is an extension of already existing policies and guidelines that work. If you need a rule or a law to govern common sense, good judgment, and civility, then you've missed the entire point. You already know it is wrong to attack Elonka for her professional interests. You don't need anyone to tell you this. ] (]) 00:42, 14 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::What I think is that it's wrong for someone to enter a debate presenting herself as an "uninvolved administrator" when she is in fact closely associated with one of the principals in the debate, and seeking to impose that POV under the authority of being an administrator, contrary to policy. This is not merely a matter of her being a cryptographer - there are plenty of cryptographers in the private sector who have never given talks at CIA headquarters. ] (]) 00:56, 14 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::I see your problem. You are confusing the role of an admin/editor with the professional interests of a person in RL, interests which have no bearing on this topic. Let me give you one example. We have many editors who are attorneys. Does that present a COI in noticeboard discussions about policy and law? What about mathematicians who write maths articles and who help draft MOS or project guidelines? And what about editors and journalists, can they not contribute to discussions about the use of classified documents on Misplaced Pages? Your line of reasoning breaks down before you even open your mouth. COI issues deal with article content, such as a bio subject writing about themselves or their business. And as long as this COi is known and under control, there is not a problem. We even have editors writing about their good friends and family. None of this has anything to do with Elonka and her role on the noticeboard, where she is wearing her editorial hat. ] (]) 01:26, 14 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Wnt, just to put the matter to rest: You are wrong. :) I did speak at CIA once, but to my knowledge I am still just a private citizen, and I am under no obligation (that I know of) to comment one way or the other related to classified documents. Or in other words: You are saying things about me that are not true, and have nothing to do with my efforts as a Misplaced Pages administrator. --]]] 03:02, 14 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| === 15 December, maybe 14 for you? === | |||
| <nowiki><reminisce></nowiki> | |||
| I had a hissy fit over being called "deletionist" one time, because it really hurt my feelings. I mean a ''huge'' hissy fit: Multiple and increasingly frantic posts to the administrator’s notice board, accidental racial epithets, real tearing-of-shirt stuff. Embarrassing. | |||
| ::Let me put this way: had I known about the April 7 incident, I would have indeffed on the spot instead of issuing a warning. So it is a last straw, even if in reverse. Basically, there seems to be an unhealthy fixation with that video that raises alarm bells for me. ] 03:19, 29 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| I saw your on the CFDI talk page and wanted to make a request: Please don't call people names. | |||
| :::{{ping|El C}} - I don't know about an obsession with that video, but what I can say is that Wnt is the most pro-transparency person I've come across, and that applies to the video, among other things. ''']] (])''' 03:30, 29 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| Anyway, the real problem with calling people names (even if those names are totally accurate) is that it interferes with creating good content (maybe more-so when the names are accurate, in fact). It does this by making the general atmosphere more hostile and making it harder for people to compromise, as well as by hurting their feelings. | |||
| ::::That may be so, but a line has to be drawn. Families of victims of that shootout deserve our ] from displaying their loved ones' final and horrific moments on this earth for all to see. ] 03:36, 29 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| Anyway<sup>2</sup> I hope that you're having a nice day wherever you are,<br/><font color="black">]</font> 00:35, 15 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I'm not arguing against that. Merely offering my take on Wnt. ''']] (])''' 03:40, 29 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :Should I say "a person intent on deleting information"...? ] (]) 00:39, 15 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Much better to say ''"may we discuss this edit in which information was deleted?"'' Better not even to say ''"...like your last five edits where you deleted information."'' I'm certainly not saying that I am always able to abide by this, but it is without a doubt the best way to get what you want. <font color="black">]</font> 01:51, 15 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Alright - I have to admit that you are recommending the best practice, and at the moment I find that a substantial amount of my annoyance at Elonka has evaporated, or at least shifted, after finding out that in the whole wide world the first people who seem to be interested in the Wikified article are ''Hezbollah''. I was truly expecting the article would be of much greater interest to peace activists, fair trade groups, labor groups, people interested in improving the balance of trade. I think it's important to maintain freedom in Misplaced Pages and America in general, but info-war, like every war, needs to have an end, and as far as I'm concerned, once I prevail on the RfC and DYK, maintaining the present article, I'll have marched far enough. ] (]) 02:28, 15 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::: This is very combative language. Please keep in mind that ]. We are here to provide an encyclopedia, not to fight ideological battles. --]]] 21:04, 15 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: This edit of 21:04 appears to me to be poorly judged. While the content itself is only mildly provocative, its placement in a thread (sub-thread?) in which the placing editor was not previously involved, and with whom this page-owner (as much as we own any page. I bet WP:OWN links somewhere) is arguably in dispute, is inflammatory. "Is "WP:BAIT" a shortcut?" I muse to myself. - <font color="black">]</font> 22:24, 15 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: I strongly disagree. This is one of a series of comments by Wnt on this topic that espouses a BATTLEGROUND mentality. This is the kind of thing that is going to end up on arbcom if he and others continue. ] (]) 22:47, 15 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: Viriditas, you're disagreeing with something I didn't say. Please '''first''' note that in opening this sub-thread I did so to provide positive constructive feedback on one of these "series of comments". Please '''then''' note that I have only taken issue with Elonka herself making these edits. | |||
| ::::::I appreciate that. I, too, believe in transparency, but my point is that there's red lines one does not cross. ] 03:48, 29 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: If I may speak plainly for a moment, these two having a good go (each in their own esteemable way) at one another. If Elonka thought that Wnt's comments rose to the level that a warning was required, she should have ''"exercise good judgment and patience in dealing with others"'' and asked someone else to do it. | |||
| Wnt, whether or not you decide to appeal, I hope you will be well. ''']] (])''' 03:42, 29 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: <font color="black">]</font> 00:17, 16 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::: So far as I can tell, we're going to have conclusive resolution on the classification issue in the positive, and we're going to have some kind of verdict on the DYK one way or the other. In case there was any confusion, I wasn't name-calling when I mentioned Hezbollah - unfortunately, I was being ''literal''.<sup></sup> My goal here was to keep up the Misplaced Pages spirit of free inquiry, but what I'm saying is that I'm no longer minded to keep honing the CFDI article sharper and sharper if that's really who is most interested in it, lest I eventually figure out something that other careful readers wouldn't have. Once the basic free speech principles are settled here, I think it's time for me to move on to subjects that I find more productive to develop here. ] (]) 00:33, 16 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Wnt, if there's anything I can do to help, please let me know in e-mail. My initial reactions would probably not be helpful. --] (]) 04:33, 29 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ==Correction== | |||
| Hi Wnt, just to clarify a point in your RfC statement: We did not have a "debate" between work pages. I was working on a post for ] in a subpage of my userspace. You saw it, I presume by monitoring my contribs, and then created your own workpage. When I was done with my draft, I posted it to AN, and then deleted my workpage. There was no debate between us to my knowledge, so I would appreciate if you would correct that part of your statement, as it will just cause confusion. You are welcome to say that I started a thread at WP:AN, and you prepared a rebuttal, that would probably be easiest to understand. --]]] 18:23, 14 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Well, I invited your response, and you did some minor editing after that, but admittedly, it didn't seem responsive to me. The talk page though qualified as a debate. It doesn't trouble me to reword if it matters. ] (]) 19:20, 14 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :: It is not accurate to classify this as a debate. --]]] 19:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::: I meant . I did say ''my'' talk page at the RfC. ] (]) 19:26, 14 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::: That conversation had nothing to do with classified sources. It was about maintaining decorum on talkpages, and the necessity to use reliable sources, not primary sources. If you still want to link it, feel free, but it would be incorrect to categorize it as being a discussion about classified sources, and I truly do not think it would be helpful to you. I am also giving you good faith advice here, as I don't think you understand how an RfC works. Trying to link to a now-deleted subpage in userspace, which is effectively identical with a post in a thread at ], is just going to look bizarre. Your current statement at the RfC also is very long, and could be perceived as defensive. If you are looking to persuade, I would recommend making your comment considerably shorter, and focus on the issue at hand, links to classified documents, without going into a long list of bulletpoints, which will just cause people to skip over it as ]. To review other RfCs to see how they proceeded, check here: ]. --]]] 19:44, 14 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: I may decide to do revisions later on, but I think I covered the topic well enough for now. ] (]) 19:47, 14 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I was aware back in April that Wnt had added a link to the Christchurch shooting video. I thought at the time that this was poor judgment from an experienced editor. However, I do think that an indefinite block is harsh.--'''''] <sup>]</sup>''''' 05:15, 29 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| == Most of them are done == | |||
| :I hope the admin concerned to review the decision. I am not sure if this is fair to ban him/her indef over one count of transgression. --]✎] 05:24, 29 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| I've done what I can for now for the references in the article. There are 8 more, four of which are mines, and then almost all of China and all of Japan. I could find absolutely nothing for Japan and only a little for China. Think you could pull anything up yourself? <font color="silver">]</font><font color="blue">]</font><sup>]</sup> 23:29, 14 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *This is a damn good (and necessary) block. I just came across his edits of today and ''shocking'' is an understatement. ]] 08:14, 29 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :Hmmm... I found one, sort of..... Now ''that'' is what I would call embarrassing success. Still, we knew they were looking at this list all along - only the illusion is broken. ] (]) 00:07, 15 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::I don't believe that comes close to being a reliable source though. <font color="silver">]</font><font color="blue">]</font><sup>]</sup> 00:15, 15 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::I didn't say it was... though if we looked into it, it might be usable as a primary source used about itself... ] (]) 00:17, 15 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| === Unblock request === | |||
| == Nomination of ] for deletion == | |||
| {{unblock reviewed | 1=I have given this block some thought, and the truth is, I ''did'' commit the ] that it was issued for, and I did so foolishly. When the news of Fram's ban came out, some editors leapt into a ] to cause trouble for the WMF, T&S, and JEissfeldt (WMF) in particular. I owe them several apologies. I immediately projected my own thoughts for reform onto the group, imagining that since this was a reaction against "civility enforcement" they wanted some kind of 1990s-era internet liberty that in increasingly strong terms they told me they didn't want. Just before I was blocked I finally got the point (above) that this was always a battle over power, not principle, and that I should never have been involved in it at all. While being involved, several times I jumped into discussions that said "let's disrupt Misplaced Pages like this, or this, or this", and each time I started brainstorming "well, if you ''really'' want to disrupt Misplaced Pages..." I rationalized this by telling myself that if the idea gained consensus, it wouldn't be against policy; but in reality the entire WP:FRAM discussion can never create a consensus against the WMF, even if ''everyone'' voted for something. This was one of those cases. More specifically, I didn't "get the point", per WP:DE (which to be honest I hadn't read in ages), that the video wasn't wanted by other editors of the article, so re-proposing its addition, even on another forum, was violating the policy. I suggested the most contentious thing I could think of on the grounds that nothing could disrupt Misplaced Pages for the WP:FRAM mob better than that. Obviously, I need to stop participating in this disruptive anti-WMF action and to recognize its failure, both at the practical level, and in the more fundamental sense that the system the rebel editors want is not meaningfully different than what T&S would impose. Even if some admins are retiring, it is entirely normal for employees to move on when they realize their jobs will be phased out, and at this point, certainly none of my concern. The role of "protection" in this block is more difficult to interpret. ] has a short section on avoiding victimization that speaks of trimming sections back to the sources, so I did not think citing a source per se, especially on a talk page, would violate it. The policy has a section on images, but only in the sense of a "false light". The block policy speaks of defamation, and it doesn't seem like it is defamatory to be the victim of a crime. I bring this up because I have to be clear I have been engaging in similar behavior for a ''long'' time, and I don't know which of my behavior would be viewed as improper. For example, at ] I added a Fox News article that includes the video of ISIS setting the man on fire; I was very clear about this in an edit in February 2015 (I don't know if it would be a blockable offense for me to link to the diff), and the source remains in the article today. I checked the video still works last night; it does, and it is still far more horrifying to watch than the other one. At ] I added a reference whose archive still contains the shooter's full manifesto, which as some said is now illegal to read in New Zealand (a first for that country) and certainly is also propaganda, and still available at the archive link. I should disclose that the situation at that article had already escalated to an where a block had been "clearly rejected" for reinserting a primary link to the racists' take on the situation. I had assumed that if a clearly unsuitable source for the article was not ''blockable'' to return to the talk page, then an archive.org link to a video being discussed worldwide should be uncontroversial. That particular article had been the home of proposals I had never heard of for an encyclopedia article before, like that the murderer should not be named, and I did not take the critical voices in the AN/I as seriously as perhaps I should have. In the past I have thought of myself as a citizen of Misplaced Pages, even a "part owner", trying to push for it to keep true to what I thought were its fundamental ideals. Over the past two weeks it has become apparent that it is much like any other social media corporation. I could wish for the old Misplaced Pages, but it no longer exists, and it is pointless to try to speak to the dead. In this new Misplaced Pages, I am merely a social media user trying, like any, to figure out how the rules have changed lately. But I am not entirely above using social media now and then, though with much less enthusiasm than I used to have for Misplaced Pages. So I will request the unblock whenever you see fit because there are still some things I can do here you might find useful, and will try to take your advice. WP:DE mentions the possibility of escalating block terms before an indef is reached, so that's what I'll hope for. Obviously, I will not be reposting about the New Zealand video going forward, but you'll have to decide how to bring anything else I've mentioned into compliance with T&S and the informal community administrative process. I recognize now that this is not ''my'' site and it is not my role to tell the owners how to run it. I ''give up'', really. I was already at my wit's end with those wacky ideas I was proposing before. ] (]) 16:50, 29 June 2019 (UTC) | decline = ]; please shorten your request and resubmit. ] (]) 17:17, 29 June 2019 (UTC)}} | |||
| ===Unblock request 2=== | |||
| <div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">]</div>The article ''']''' is being discussed concerning whether it is suitable for inclusion as an article according to ] or whether it should be ]. | |||
| {{unblock reviewed | 1=I have given this some thought, and I ''did'' foolishly commit the ] that it was issued for. I failed to realize this was a battle over power, not principle, which I should never have been involved in it at all. Several times I jumped into discussions that said "let's disrupt Misplaced Pages like this" and brainstormed for more ideas, rationalizing that if they gained consensus they couldn't be disruptive -- but there can be no consensus against the WMF. The video was the most contentious thing I could think of ... but I didn't "get the point", per WP:DE, that the video wasn't wanted by other editors of the article, so re-proposing its addition, even on another forum, was violating the policy. I need to stop participating in this disruptive anti-WMF action and to recognize its failure.<br /><br />The role of "protection" in this block is harder to understand. ]'s section on avoiding victimization speaks of trimming sections back to the sources, so I didn't see how a source on the talk page could violate it. I also didn't see how being a victim of a crime would be a false light or defamatory. I bring this up because you should know I have been engaging in similar behavior for a ''long'' time. At ] I added a Fox News article that includes the video of ISIS setting the man on fire; I was very clear about this in an edit in February 2015 At ] I added a reference whose archive still contains the shooter's full manifesto. Both are still in the articles. An "clearly rejected" a block over a different objectionable link, and I assumed an archive.org source would not be a violation of policy as I knew it. In the past I have thought of myself as a citizen of Misplaced Pages, even a "part owner", ''pushing'' for it to keep true to what I thought were its fundamental ideals. I ''give up'' on that idea; I am just a visitor on someone else's machine. But I will request the unblock whenever you see fit because this is the Social Media we have now, and there are still a few things I could do you might find useful, and I will try to take your advice. WP:DE mentions the possibility of escalating block terms before an indef is reached, so that's what I'll hope for. ] (]) 18:24, 29 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| <br /><br />{{re|Dlohcierekim}}Thank you for your encouraging words. I wasn't expecting an immediate unblock; what matters is if it can happen or not. My understanding is that formerly blocked editors are subject to much higher scrutiny, especially when there is this level of disagreement. I assure you that I have no intention of further ] or ] violations, or any violations of policy. WP:POINT is a crime of passion, and my passion for this project is I think permanently diminished. This is a matter of trying to salvage what is left.<br /><br />{{re|Lourdes}} makes a good suggestion of undoing disruptive edits, but so far as I know the worst of them were already cut out of the page, and the rest of my intemperate anti-WMF comments were archived. Given the higher level of scrutiny, I am hesitant to start editing talk page archives. I mean, I have some harsh words in archive 2 and 3, but I'm not sure if editing the archive is more disruptive than leaving it. What I ''do'' intend to do, if it is permissible, will be to make an apology on the active page, recant my involvement, and urge others to abandon disruptive actions.<br /><br />{{re|El C}} The edit I was talking about was on February 9. Our present reference #34 links this video internally within the company under "WARNING: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC VIDEO"). I don't want to provide a diff here because linking to it seems nearly identical to the action I was just blocked for. If you think the page is violating policy at present, it is up to you to address that. ] (]) 00:52, 1 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| | decline = Obviously, ] I might even agree with the reason. I almost accepted this, but I need fuller assurance that you will not ] My decline should not carry sufficient weight that the next reviewing admin should feel any trepidation at granting an unblock. Having said that, the insertion of a link to that video would be enough reason to block, though for how long is debatable. Hope to get you back soon, and it's sad that certain events have occurred to make this situation possible. ] (]), ], ] 03:43, 30 June 2019 (UTC)}} | |||
| * I would probably request Wnt to add a line to their statement (suggested above by Dlohcierekim) that they will also in good faith attempt to undo all the past edits that they know are probably disruptive. ] 06:09, 30 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| Perhaps if Wnt would add ]s to what they are talking about regarding ]...? At any rate, it's clear that they do not grasp the gravity of adding a link to the New Zealand shooting video. We don't do that on Misplaced Pages for reasons that are too obvious to mention. Trying to wikilawyer about that continues a wrongheaded approach. Participants have suggested to Wnt what tone they ought to take —display some reflection and honest introspection— but I suspect that this will not be happening because Wnt doesn't actually believe that they did anything wrong. ] 16:37, 30 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| The article will be discussed at ] until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines. | |||
| :I would suggest that it should not be a single admin's judgment about what is too obvious to mention that controls whether someone gets an indef block. --] (]) 17:19, 30 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::And you are more than free to bring this up to any forum of review you see fit. Displaying or linking to videos of executions is prohibited on Misplaced Pages. Which is, indeed, too obvious to mention. Oh well. ] 17:31, 30 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm not saying there can't be (]) exceptions, but as a general rule — have I missed something about this being not being obvious? ] 17:39, 30 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :::Can you point me to the policy that says displaying or linking to videos of executions is prohibited on Misplaced Pages? Or is this your rule, which you want everyone else to agree is obvious? --] (]) 17:53, 30 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::::], ] — it is obviously disruptive and not encyclopedic. ] 18:04, 30 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :::::OM does not mention enforcement at all, as far as I can tell. Also it emphasizes the "principle of least astonishment"; the main concern seems to be avoiding giving offense to the unwary. The edit with the link has been revdel'd so I can't evaluate whether an unwary editor was likely to click it by mistake, but from the context around the discussion I would lean towards guessing that it was not likely. | |||
| :::::DE does mention enforcement, in considerable detail, and has nothing at all about an indef block on the basis of a single admin's judgment about where the red lines are, outside of disruption-only accounts which is clearly not Wnt's case. --] (]) 18:24, 30 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Sorry, I'm not that interested to further debate policy interpretation or semantics at this time. I feel like my position has been sufficiently explained. But just to reiterate briefly, as the 2nd reviewing admin said: "the insertion of a link to that video would be enough reason to block." I argue that this, coupled with the threat to insert that link to scare of Misplaced Pages corporate donors and the like, justifies this block. ] 18:34, 30 June 2019 (UTC) | |||
| As I suspected, the video linked in ref number 34 of ] ('''') does not display any actual executions. Drawing parallels between it and the New Zealand shooting video is perplexing, to say the least. ] 01:04, 1 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. ] (]) 02:26, 15 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Further digging shows that ''FOX News'' actually embedded the unedited video ('''') — shame on them. ] 01:09, 1 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ==There is More Classified than Unclassified== | |||
| I found (and ) an unedited footage of that ISIS execution, so thanks for bringing that article to my attention. I note that mainstream news organization chose not to show the video ('''') — because of course they didn't! ] 01:19, 1 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| Maybe this Harvard Univ. source could be used to provide some context for making any decisions related to classified documents. | |||
| "as many as a trillion pages are classified (200 Libraries of Congress)." | |||
| *So, there are two issues here: advocating for ] disruption in protest to the WMF, and the actual linking of ]. The former is understandable. You admit you got carried away by the Fram hysteria. You'll drop it and move on. Great. The latter is what has not been sufficiently addressed. Can you explain why you've been pushing the inclusion of shocking and offensive content? I don't really understand that part. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:24, 1 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ], a historian and Director in the Science Dept. at Harvard University, research shows that the U.S. Government produces more classified information than unclassified information.. | |||
| *:{{re|Swarm}} Please bear in mind in reading this that I am speaking of my motivations ''in the past'', when I genuinely believed that Misplaced Pages had a policy against censorship. I am not suggesting any kind of defiance of your present requirements. In prior editing, for example, I followed copyright policy even though I don't believe in it. | |||
| *:The original reason for including this kind of content was a general feeling that primary sources are important for a comprehensive and neutral point of view. If a politician is being accused of a sexist Tweet, and his defenders say it wasn't sexist, you can include two paragraphs of secondary sources and not get nearly as accurate an impression as if you simply reprint the Tweet. This feeling traces back to advanced biology courses where I was told always to go back and look at the original paper, see the gel, look at the constructs, examine the rationale of the experiment -- not just to trust reviews of reviews. Secondary sources ''are'' essential for Misplaced Pages, and primary sources can't often be used without them, but they aren't enough to do a topic justice. | |||
| *:In the context of offensive material, I saw a situation where Misplaced Pages articles could be more informative than other sources. When media would avoid linking to a source, we, being "NOTCENSORED", could provide a more comprehensive view of the topic. The media's aversion to sources seldom feels genuine -- for example, Associated Press almost always avoids giving useful authorship information about science papers, preferring to say something like "researchers at the University of Bristol". This is because the media outlets don't want readers clicking away to read a primary source when they should be going on to the next advertisement. | |||
| *: I have been aware of a greatly increased abhorrence, on and off Misplaced Pages, to "extremist" or violent content in recent years. I am aware of laws passed in Britain and Australia. I was under the impression that Misplaced Pages, being in the U.S., was not going along with that, and did want to try to help maintain the site's distinctive ancestral character by seeking out these links. | |||
| *: To the extent that primary sources become hard to find, the absence tends to promote misinformation. For example, there is a conspiracy theory I was surprised to find hosted on archive.org today that claims that an ammo clip was left behind from a "previous take". The uncut video makes quick work of that deception, because the killer can be heard dropping it the moment before it is seen. | |||
| *: Any retreat from this position was stalled by the lack of a notable change in policy, and uncertainty regarding where the change would come. Would it be a ban on descriptions of charas usage, which the Russians complained about, or synthesis routes for illicit drugs, or images of Rorschach blots, or Muhammad, or coverage of news now restricted under EU's Article 13, or leaked State Department cables, or links to Iranian or Venezuelan propaganda? We have had so many controversies over the years, so many times we had ultimately rejected restricting the content. But Brenton Tarrant has fundamentally changed Misplaced Pages just as he changed New Zealand. I was a bit surprised that El C did not remove the manifesto reference (#134) from the shooting article since it is as illegal in New Zealand as the video footage, but it is up to you to decide what the policy is. | |||
| *: It is clear enough ''now'' that news source linking to video of people dying are no longer permitted by policy, and as I said, I have no intent to violate policy. I hope this has not been too lengthy a response; trim it if you like. ] (]) 22:05, 1 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| *Wnt, I find your (and your defenders) lack of basic human empathy for victims of a mass murderer to be mind-boggling. Your tendency to wikilawyer about policy and getting back at WMF when the issue is posting a video of human beings being slaughtered and calling it "bestgore" is frankly, unbelievable to me. I have no confidence that you even understand the line you crossed into frankly 4chan-type of behavior. I will not review an unblock request because I am admittedly appalled, not only at your efforts and suggestion to post this video but the fact that you can talk about butchery of innocent people in such a detached way. Typically, we see this behavior in trolls, not experienced editors. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 21:23, 1 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| "..about five times as many pages are being added to the classified universe than are being | |||
| *: {{re|Liz}} I ''do'' feel empathy for them. What I don't understand is why looking at or sharing a video of a terrible injustice being done to them would reflect a lack of empathy. How is it empathetic ''not'' to be willing to see a person crying, or a person fighting back? | |||
| brought to the storehouses of human learning, including all the books and | |||
| *: You may also think it cold to be able to watch such a video. That is true: I know cold. I have had to help pull my mother naked from a bathroom floor, feeling the shattered bone grinding in her hip. When I waited for the diagnosis of her metastasis out in the coldest blizzard of the winter, it felt as warm as a day at the beach. I was colder than the heart of winter. There was no national day of mourning for Mom. The liars who built those machines to certify the "low-tar" cigarettes in the 1970s were never prosecuted. And that cold heart inside me thinks that Mom would have been very fortunate indeed to have died in a few seconds of turmoil, surrounded by thoughts of God and salvation. Nothing in that video was as bad as when I expected when I first hit Play; it was a <u>relief</u> compared to what my imagination had conjured up. Call me a troll; it is not wrong. But is it against policy to be cold? ] (]) 22:25, 1 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| journals on any subject in any language collected in the largest repositories | |||
| *Based on the last response, can I request that talk page access be removed without going to AN/I? ] 22:21, 1 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| on the planet." | |||
| *: {{re|Cygnis insignis}} What do you feel I did wrong with that response? I am not seeking to violate any policies here. If an admin asks me a question pertaining the unblock, shouldn't I give a truthful answer? I certainly do not want to engage in "continued abuse of their user talk page", and could delete anything you think strayed from the present purpose. ] (]) 22:32, 1 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| *:: I can only try mate. This is sort of discussion that led to the creation of video? I can't help from where I'm sitting, and my attempts in the real world are not professional and very limited in their success. ] 22:55, 1 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| *::There is a difference between NOTCENSORED and intentionally shocking and discomforting people, not to inform them, but to make a point. Just as I think we should have free speech, I also think people have a right not to listen - and that includes the right not to be bullhorned. Wether right or wrong, I have the impression that you are still trying to make a point, not to constructively engage with the others. I'm willing to consider an unblock, but I don't want whiny pretension of "I am right, but the world is unjust, and I will play by its crooked rules". I want a sign that you understand that your position is not the only possible or moral one, and that if in doubt you will not confront others with more shock and graphic violence (or sickness) than they should expect in this environment. Giving information is fine, but let others make the decision how much and in which form they want it. If in doubt, go for consensus. --] (]) 22:59, 1 July 2019 (UTC) <small>I'll also be mostly offline for the next 12-14h, so nothing I do will be quick. --] (]) 23:05, 1 July 2019 (UTC) </small> | |||
| *::: {{re|Stephan Schulz}} Thank you for this kind response. My response to Swarm was verbose, but at the end I said that I would treat video of death (also "graphic violence") as being against policy unless I have some very clear indication otherwise. I'm not sure what you meant by "just information" -- as I recall, my archive.org link led to a user profile that led to two uploaded videos each of which had a warning. So far as I can tell, any link that even indirectly navigates to such a video is considered against policy and my days of providing "information" are just about over. My feeling is that some people here would not at all mind to see me blocked again for any reason -- my account is precarious, and I am going to have to use it very lightly if I want to keep it for anything at all. (Sorry for rushing this response, but I'm not sure if I'll be allowed to post it later) ] (]) 23:24, 1 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| *::::No worries. But what I see is more extrinsic motivation. "My account is precarious", therefore I need to be careful". I'd like to see some sign of an intrinsic understanding of the problem. To get away from the video: before my first post here I saw the shortish discussion on ], I remembered you as someone with sometimes unusual ideas, but at least some that are usually worthy of consideration, and hence I decided to see what the situation is and if I could help diffuse it. I was expecting the usual - (maybe heated) discussion about Wikipolicies, maybe a bit of cussing, maybe even a bit of rational discourse (yes, I'm a bit of a Pollyanna). Instead, I get confronted with dead or dying mothers, broken bones grating, and metastasising cancer thrown around. I'm normally robust, but it took me half an hour or so to get that imagery out of my head before I went to sleep yesterday. I don't think I deserved this. In particular because I think it served no useful purpose. I'm a free speech advocate, and pretty much an absolutist. But if we all ''use'' all of our rights to the extreme limits, communities break down. Words have power, and with power comes responsibility. If I were to unblock you, I would need some sign that you will consider the effect of your words (and links, and whatever) on the readers, and try to maintain proportionality. Making German officials visit ] after WW2 was proportional. Brainwashing ] was not. In between there is a grey zone. My impression is that you are not very good at grey. But, like John Nash, we can sometimes overcome some of our weaknesses by using our strength. If you don't have a good intuition about what people find acceptable, be conservative, use your higher-level reasoning, and if in doubt, ask someone else before acting rashly. --] (]) 14:45, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| {{od2}} Okay, so basically what I'm getting from your replies is that you felt that something like an actual video of an incident, however horrific, is an important primary source with legitimate academic value, and, per NOTCENSORED, should not be excluded purely because it is offensive. You're not obsessed with spreading that video or shock content in general to make some sort of point. Your advocacy for doing so at WP:FRAM to protest the WMF had nothing to do with your reasons for advocating for including it in the past. I do hope that it is understandable to you as to why an admin would see your comments advocating for horrific shock videos to be posted to disrupt Misplaced Pages, which is extreme by any measure, and then see that you actually have done so in the past, and interpreting it as willful disruption or vandalism. I certainly don't think El_C was unreasonable for thinking that you have an "unhealthy fixation with that video that raises alarm bells". Can't you see how horrible that looks? I mean, you're upsetting a bunch of people by even suggesting that we spread that video to troll the WMF, and then we find out that you've already posted the video on-wiki. If you had a nuanced, academic reason for doing so, you didn't present any that talk page, you just said "we should put a link" and then posted it. ''That's'' why you're blocked. There's going to be little tolerance for someone who appears to have an inexplicable fixation on posting a horrifying shock video of a mass shooting. It's not because we have some new zero-tolerance policy on offensive material. NOTCENSORED is an important policy, and above even that we have a ], which actually goes so far as to say that we may freely host content that is ''illegal'' outside of the US. The OM guideline is just a caveat to all that, which basically boils down to "within reason". Offensive material will be protected from censorship all day, but ''there has to be a good reason for it in the first place''. We don't want you to treat offensive/objectionable content as a policy violation, because it's not, and that's not the point. You just need to understand that it's not ''unchecked'', and the inclusion of such material needs to be based on weighing encyclopedic value against needless distress inflicted. This is subjective and a spectrum. It is not one extreme or the other. As you can clearly see, these situations can very quickly become highly emotional and should not be treated lightly. You can and should advocate against censorship, but such advocacy needs to focus on the encyclopedic value of the relevant content, which is subjective and can and should be reasonably discussed. These situations require nuance. If you want to include something that is offensive for an academic reason, that's actually fine. But you have to reasonably explain the underlying rationale, stay within policy, and avoid needlessly upsetting people. And if you're going to do that, you probably shouldn't simultaneously advocate for using that same content to disrupt the project. That's certainly not a good look. ] <sup>]</sup> 01:58, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| Peter Galison is the Mallinckrodt Professor of the History of Science and Physics at Harvard University. His main work explores the interaction among the principal subcultures of physics: How Experiments End (1987), Image and Logic | |||
| (1997), and Einstein’s Clocks, Poincare´’s Maps (2003). Several projects explore | |||
| crosscurrents between science and other fields, including his coedited volumes | |||
| The Architecture of Science (1999), Picturing Science, Producing Art (1998), and | |||
| Scientific Authorship (2003). In 1997, he was named a John D. and Catherine T. | |||
| MacArthur Foundation Fellow, and in 1999 he received the Max Planck Prize. | |||
| ] (]) 03:55, 15 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :{{re|Swarm}} That is a far more sympathetic response than I had expected, and something I can agree with throughout. I will heed your advice. Thank you. ] (]) 02:06, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| == Thyrosafe == | |||
| ::{{yo|El_C}} Do you want to add anything to what I'm saying here? ] <sup>]</sup> 02:12, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::''<Thread moved to ]>'' | |||
| :::Sorry, but it still doesn't feel like Wnt actually feels regret or shame for what they've done — and it was regretful and it was shameful. Sure, now that they see which way the wind is blowing, they are coming across as more amenable to reform (makes sense), but fundamentally, I'm just not seeing it. ] 02:37, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :::: So is it now to be about the user's emotional state? --] (]) 02:44, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :::::It is, in part, about reflection and honest introspection. ] 02:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You yourself might benefit from that, Trovatore. Read what Liz wrote. ] 02:51, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::While I cannot be sure of others' mental processes, my hypothesis is that in what Liz wrote, and perhaps also in your own reactions, there is a tendency to take the justified horror at the enormous crime that was committed in Christchurch, and to let it inappropriately color one's reactions to other things that are not strictly connected with that crime. We recoil at the shooting; we recoil at the fact that the videographer posted it apparently with approval. I hope and believe that all of us are on the same page on those facts. | |||
| ::::::It does not follow, at least not without further argument, that it is shameful to do anything that impedes the video from being consigned to the memory hole. Certainly ''I'' do not want to watch it. But it is, in essence, part of the public record, and as Wnt says, there may be elements of it that are useful in understanding certain aspects of the events. --] (]) 03:15, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I get what you're saying, but including this kind of content is strictly dependent on academic considerations. This user was advocating for spreading the video around purely to disrupt Misplaced Pages. Then when you look into their history you can find them adding the video to a talk page, with no stated reasoning. I really can't blame El_C for having alarm bells go off. The optics are terrible, there's repeated attempts to spread the video, with no apparent academic advocacy behind it. ] <sup>]</sup> 03:36, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Not displaying or linking to that video does not erase it from the historiography in any way. Wnt having linked to it was grossly inappropriate, which is not something I believe is in dispute here by anyone else. ] 03:49, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| {{od2}} {{yo|El_C}} Of course. This is more than fair. I tried to properly explain the root of the issues, and the proper changes that should be made going forward, but it's your block, and I will not overturn it before you think the user is where they need to be. I just wanted to give you the opportunity to review my assessment and advice as a ''first'' step. I feel Wnt has generically satisfied the GAB, but has shown little sincere introspection or understanding. I've tried spelling it out for them. I think all the answers are in my statement. Wnt, please reflect on what I said. I believe you when you say that you can understand and agree with what I'm saying, and that you'll make the changes I suggest. And I'm sorry if this feels like you're being forced to jump through hoops, but you're not being singled out for harsh treatment. A genuine, sincere statement that shows both an understanding of what you did wrong and a convincing assurance that you will not repeat the problematic behavior is what we expect in any unblock request. That means you tell us where you went wrong in your own words, and, as I said, treating offensive content as a policy violation is not convincing because that's not the point. I'd be looking for an assurance that you will not add potentially-offensive/shocking content that holds no encyclopedic value, and if you believe any such content to hold encyclopedic value, you will rationalize and discuss the addition of such content ''before'' adding it. I don't think that's asking too much. ] <sup>]</sup> 03:26, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| == Nomination of ] for deletion == | |||
| :My 2c: | |||
| <div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">]</div>The article ''']''' is being discussed concerning whether it is suitable for inclusion as an article according to ] or whether it should be ]. | |||
| :* I believe that Wnt is completely sincere and well-intentioned in their beliefs given the consistency with which they have expressed them over the years, and is not trying to game the system to get out of the current block. | |||
| :* However, my reading is that they believe that society has grown too coddled and that the reality of extreme and violent content should be thrust in their faces for its own good; see and other posts in the section from 2012 or their contribution to ] including from 2014 for examples involving such content/argument. | |||
| :* The problem, as I see it, is that this argument is essentially ], as opposed to an argument based on reliable secondary sources for inclusion of extreme content in ''individual'' cases. To spell out the difference: we have a strong ''source''-based reason for including "disturbing" content at ], ], ] etc. And strong source-based and to ''not'' propagate depictions of school- and other mass-shootings. Wnt doesn't seem to recognize the difference and the need for wikipedia to follow the example of secondary sources; you'll note that in the 2012 and 2014 diffs linked above, there is no secondary source cited! | |||
| :* Finally, I don't really think we should be asking Wnt to demonstrate ]. They are welcome to hold on to their ideological beliefs as long as their ''actions'' on wikipedia respect the policies and goal of writing an encyclopedia that summarize secondary sources. At the same time, I don't think asking them to simply "rationalize and discuss the addition" of violent content is good enough since that leaves them open to make purely ideological arguments and/or indulge in verbal imagery (refer to the 2012 diff, recent post at WP:FRAM, or the "mother" anecdote in this very section). | |||
| :* I am too lazy to expand on this but note also problems with ], of which examples abound in wikispace, especially at ]. | |||
| : All this is to say that if/when Wnt is unblocked it should be with clear conditions to temper their disruptive acts, while encouraging their useful contributions to encyclopedic content, which they are certainly capable of. A possible restriction would be a ban from wikispace and other discussions forums (with the usual exceptions) although I am not certain if that is completely necessary or sufficient. Perhaps {{mention|Swarm|El_C|Liz|Trovatore}}, or Wnt, have some better suggestions? | |||
| :PS: Apologies Wnt for talking so frankly about you in the third-person on your own talkpage; I know it sounds rude but I can't see how to rephrase to avoid it.] (]) 04:59, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've been mulling over whether to comment here or not, but I'd like to endorse basically everything Abecedare has said above. I recall very bluntly telling Wnt that "masturbating to gore porn does not constitute 'legitimate scholarship'" during the debate over whether the article on the Christchurch shooting should link to the video. Abecedare hits the nail on the head for when and why to include material that may be considered offensive. ] (]) 05:28, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::I agree that "shame" is not the best standard to hold an unblock request to. Neutral policy consideration is the standard that we should hold Wnt to, not morality policing. According to policy, offensive content that holds encyclopedic value is permitted, but this is a highly subjective standard. There can be no blanket presupposition to allow or ban such content one way or the other. I think an agreement that he will preemptively rationalize and discuss such content rather than adding it outright, and only follow through with such an addition when it is supported by the local consensus, is a reasonable moderating check on future problems that is in line with the policy requirements. The next-best alternative would be a hard TBAN on adding offensive content. That would be assuming that Wnt's judgment in terms of offensive content is completely irredeemable. I'm not convinced that even that is necessary. Something like a full TBAN from the Wikispace would not seem to address the root of the issue, which is the overly-liberal introduction of offensive content in subjective situations. ] <sup>]</sup> 05:35, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::<s>Endorse Abecedare's comment above.</s> ''']] (])''' 06:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :::Which part do you endorse over my refutation? ] <sup>]</sup> 07:08, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Oh no. I got confused on some points, I'm sorry everyone. Reading all the above paragraphs, they all got jumbled in my head. I agree with Abecedare and Mr rnddude on {{tq|when and why to include material that may be considered offensive}}. But I must have missed Abecedare's point about a total ban from Wikispace. I meant to agree with your suggestion, {{u|Swarm}} - to allow Wnt to {{tq|preemptively rationalize and discuss such content rather than adding it outright}}. However, I do agree with Abecedare that Wnt should stop posting conspiracy theories on Wikispace, but I'd prefer a warning (or a topic ban from talking about conspiracy theories?) over a total ban from Wikispace. Anyway, I'm out, don't contact me about this! ''']] (])''' 07:21, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :{{re|abecedare}} As I said, at this point I don't think "NOTCENSORED" is really a policy any more. In 2012 I posted that diff to Jimbo's page in front of an audience of administrators without even ''worrying'' about being blocked, let alone indefinitely. I thought of the diff in the Bestgore article as citing a primary source by the subject about himself, which could be debated in the normal course of article editing. But even in the midst of my ill-considered Fram rampage, I did not dare to post a comparable link to Bestgore, but only suggested doing so, and that was still much too much. ] above is telling me that even explaining my personal perspective in response to an admin request about my emotional state is too much. This is ''not'' the Misplaced Pages it used to be -- and to be fair, this is not the internet it used to be. The plus side of that for you is that I can say that my days of challenges and conspiracy theories about Misplaced Pages politics are behind me. Now that it is made clear by the block and many comments favoring it that the policy I care about is no more, why should I get worked up about any other? | |||
| The article will be discussed at ] until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines. | |||
| :Your proposal of a WP space ban disturbs me, since the Reference Desks and ] are some of the places I was thinking I might still be of use. I think the sources people are complaining about are spread throughout article, talk, and other discussion places fairly evenly. My impression is that what you are mostly concerned about is violent video, wherever I would post it, and also that you regard this as against policy no matter who does it. Why don't you just come up with a way to write more clearly into policy the things you don't want posted? It would be easier than placing restrictions on editors one at a time, and it would avoid giving other editors not yet restricted the idea that these links are acceptable for them. In the meanwhile, as I said, I ''do'' understand you regard these links as against policy and I won't defy your policy. ] (]) 20:52, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::So those links were fine once, but now they're not? That is your argument? I'm not sure that's true, but, say it was, it would be to the project's discredit. Again, I was not asking for your emotional state, I was asking for ''reflection and honest introspection'', which I'm disappointed but frankly not surprised is still absent. ] 21:53, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::: {{re|El C}} Well, I don't think you would say I'm being dishonest, and I've been introspective enought to get a tl;dr notice and a request to have my talk access revoked. So the question is whether I'm reflecting on what you say. So far from what I could see, you've been saying or at least implying pretty consistently that anyone who posted the archive.org link that I did should be blocked forever, no ifs, ands, or buts. I've said repeatedly that I wouldn't dare post them going forward. Are you asking me to ''believe'' that these links are wrong, outside of the sense of them being prohibited on Misplaced Pages? ] (]) 22:28, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'm trying to get you to appreciate why so many people are so upset — it's clearly not working. ] 22:36, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{re|El C}} They don't usually say why they are upset, so I would only be guessing. Fox News, a major American TV network, still hosts that Jordanian pilot video you redacted recently, so the sentiment is not universal. Some may find the material disgusting, some are worried about claims that these videos lead to "copycats", some think they can defeat bad ideas by stamping out extremist material. I had originally thought that the formal illegality of the shooting video in Australia and New Zealand was the dominating factor that made this different, but I don't think you ever did remove the manifesto from the Christchurch shooting article, and nobody has mentioned it but me. Maybe the biggest thing is that I don't use social media to any significant degree, and I know that they have been restricting their rules every other month, so perhaps there is some acculturation going on I haven't been a part of. I don't understand some, maybe most of it. After I posted the idea I had somebody claiming to have cried for half an hour just from the thought that someone might be able to find the video, and that is truly a mystery to me. But does it matter why I think they don't like the content, as long as I don't use it? ] (]) 22:49, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}}I believe you. I was hoping for empathy, if not, at least sympathy. But I'd take puzzled apathy if it's the honest truth. I get the sense, then, that, also intellectually —not just in the realm of EQ— you still fail to grasp the gravity of linking to that video. Sure, you realize it's prohibited, but the risk of you trying to push this envelop again at some point in the future, possibly to the detriment of the project's public image or legal liability, that's not a risk I am willing to take at this time. ] 23:04, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. ] (]) 11:15, 22 December 2010 (UTC) | |||
| : {{re|El C}} Do you really think that the project is in that kind of danger at all, let alone from me? If I posted the link, it would be momentary, and then I'd be blocked again, and what would the point be? There's no use in carrying out a freedom of navigation exercise if there's no freedom of navigation! Anybody on Earth might do the same thing, and I don't think it would be the end of Misplaced Pages - it never has been before. It's not kiddie porn, and the project has had a fair amount of ''that'' posted in the past. And I've given you no reason (except the Fram debacle) to think that I routinely violate policy ''if'' I know it's a policy. I would think the biggest risk you are taking with this project is in not having a policy that spells out clearly what is prohibited for those among us who might have some trouble recognizing when it's innately wrong to mention an archive.org file on a talk page. ] (]) 23:28, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::Truthfully, I don't think there are that many who share that ambiguity for us to need to spell it out in policy. But it wouldn't hurt, I suppose. ] 00:19, 3 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ===Subsection 3=== | |||
| == Your comments in Afd on Phillip Greaves == | |||
| {{tq|I could wish for the old Misplaced Pages, but it no longer exists, and it is pointless to try to speak to the dead.}} | |||
| I don't know what ''old Misplaced Pages'' Wnt is talking about above. I've been an editor for 15 years (and an admin for 14 of those), and as far as I am able to recollect, displaying or linking to graphic executions was never okay — again, some (]) exceptions notwithstanding. At any event, the argument as to Misplaced Pages ] works both ways, in this case. Misplaced Pages is not ] and I don't know how healthy it is for the project to have users who approach it not being censored in such a manner. | |||
| Hi Wnt, I very much like your comments in ]. I have found it myself that there are many articles about obscure things no one knows about that could be challenged, but they go unchallenged because no one knows they exist. But in an ironic twist, if someone comes into the news, which should be a qualifying factor for an article, that is when AfD happens. | |||
| Anyway, I don't need for Wnt to actually ''feel'' shame and regret for their shameful and regretful actions (their emotional state is, indeed, none of my concern), but failing to ''express'' reflection and honest introspection about these actions having taken place is a problem. Them merely saying the bare minimum needed to comply with the ], or even also agreeing to several proposed ] that are meant to temper their predisposition to violate ] so blatantly with unencyclopedic, offensive material — sorry, none of that works for me, and I continue to object to lifting the block on that basis alone. | |||
| Misplaced Pages has millions of articles. Each day has 1440 minutes. How much time does one person have to see what every article is like. How many articles do you personally know exist. | |||
| And frankly, I'm surprised there is seemingly such a push to gently guide Wnt toward an unblock, seeing as what they've done is so beyond the pale. They're not the only one conveying longing for an ''old Misplaced Pages.'' But I suspect I do so for opposite reasons. ] 10:37, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| I think a lot about the types of articles I have created. I have created a lot of articles on common, everyday, obvious things in our lives that we see every day, like ] and ], and I have also created articles on more obscure things, including a lot of 1990s songs that were played on the radio like crazy back then but are not anymore, and criminals who have committed major crimes whose stories have been told on cable channels. | |||
| *Just one comment from me, just to refute any idea that "Bestgore" is any sort of "real news, just uncensored" site. I've just taken a look (because it's unfair to criticize a site you haven't seen), and it blatantly isn't, as a quick glance at its selection of topics or at any of its captions/descriptions makes perfectly clear. It's a grotesque shock site, aimed at satisfying whatever it is its followers want from it (and I really don't know what that is). Anyone who sees it as any kind of legitimate journalism is, frankly, a disturbed individual. ] (]) 11:15, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| Some of the articles I have written have been proposed for deletion. So which ones do you think have? Believe it or not, they are those on the common, everyday, obvious things in our lives that we see every day, such as ], which got deleted, ], which got merged, and ], which was kept. ] and ] got prodded, but the prods were contested, and the articles have since been improved. Most of these deletions were for the dumbest reasons. | |||
| *: {{re|Boing! said Zebedee}} I really don't think I have ever cited a Bestgore item outside of (a) a talk space conversation or (b) about itself. I suspect ''all'' of my diffs about it may have been referred to here by now. On Jimbo's forum I was speaking in a broad, metaphorical, now archaic sense, the way that some used to say that Assange was a journalist. ] (]) 21:25, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| *::Sorry, I might have synthesized something in my head after reading your references to bestgore together with what someone else said about the site after following up your edits to the Misplaced Pages article. I am, however, still disturbed by any suggestions that similar material is in any way appropriate for Misplaced Pages, and that prohibition of such material is something new and in opposition to NOTCENSORED. ] (]) 09:13, 3 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| * Am going to be off-wiki for the next day and am perfectly happy with the involved admins deciding if/under-what-conditions Wnt should be unblocked. Hope the background I wrote above about the problem with Wnt's editing was of some help. ] (]) 17:24, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| *Wnt, I believe I gave a fully sufficient explanation about the difference between including offensive content because it is of encyclopedic value vs excluding offensive content with little to no encyclopedic value. You initially indicated that you understood this point, but when pressed to restate it in your own words, you've done about the worst you can do. I gave you all the answers. I did not ask for any sort of self-betrayal in the interest of political correctness. I simply asked for you to understand that it's a spectrum and that discussion and consensus may be required. Instead you're continuing to rail on about censorship and the "old Misplaced Pages" that no longer exists. It's not a great look. You could have been unblocked same-day, yet you're seemingly arguing against your own best interest. Seriously. I gave you the answers already. Get serious. ] <sup>]</sup> 07:32, 3 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| *: {{re|Swarm}} I was able to agree with everything you said, but it doesn't sound like the others do. Abecedare wants me restricted from a large part of Misplaced Pages that I use for many other purposes. I don't think he or the others want me to "include something that is offensive for an academic reason" even if I "reasonably explain the underlying rationale, stay within policy, and avoid needlessly upsetting people." From what has happened, from how people are responding, I don't think I am going to stay unblocked (if I get unblocked) if I start opening up talk page sections asking people if they want to link this kind of video, let alone just adding it with a careful edit summary or a talk page explanation. Failure to realize that is a failure of 'reflection and honest introspection', I think. I didn't mean to dismiss what you said -- I value it, I wish it were true. I am also doubtless committing many strategic errors; I've never been blocked before and I don't know how the process works or very much about what people are expecting. My apologies - I know you are trying to help me with this process. ] (]) 10:21, 3 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| *:On consideration, I think I dismissed something that ] said much too hastily. He talked about the possibility of some kind of legal action against the project for including the link. My first instinct was to wave a flag-colored sparkler and say no, that could never happen in America; after all, we have been allowed to watch videos of our own soldiers getting decapitated for nearly two decades. But the Assange prosecution illustrates how something deeply wrong, considered unconstitutional for an entire century, can now go forward. There is also the disturbing reality that archive.org, as best as I can tell, seems to have removed the full videos since the time I found them, even though it retains fragments of the video promoting highly offensive conspiracy theories that don't show anyone being killed. That footage is just as illegal with the Chief Censor in New Zealand, so by what standard did archive.org, normally an organization I would trust to preserve content, change its mind? How do I know if some creative prosecutor couldn't find a way to redefine "obscenity", itself an obscenity, to include violence also? If I had actually posted the link in the context of plain out and out mischief, I might well have gone beyond the sort of reasoned academic talk page discussion the ] is supposed to be reliable in protecting. And of course, there are an infinite number of other creative theories possible, in a world where so many other countries seem to have changed their core beliefs overnight. ''As'' a believer in free speech I should never have been nearly so blithe about the possibility of creating a terrible test case against myself and Misplaced Pages that would harm what I hold dear. For that offense against my own cause, I've decided I owe people here an apology and an acknowledgement of respect that so far I have denied them, because I don't actually know they weren't doing me a ''favor'', even if I never get unblocked. They may have just been the messengers of something beyond their control. The world shouldn't be that way... but there it is. I should have been willing to listen to people. ] (]) 23:13, 3 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :::Look, man, I'm just trying to get you to check the boxes so we can all move on. You don't need to overcomplicate this with further ideological musings. I get that you've never been blocked and you're apparently not even sure if you ''can'' be unblocked, but that's not how indefs work. An indef block is as short as you want it to be, all that is required is a suitable unblock request. What is required in such a request is fairly objective, and spelled out in the ], and spelled out by me here. An understanding of the underlying policy considerations, an understanding of where you went wrong, and a change that you will voluntarily make to prevent the issue from happening again. I'm going by what policy says and what the standard unblock process requires. I'm not worried about abstract ideology or emotion, I am objectively explaining the problem and the appropriate resolution to the problem. I'm not looking for blanket statements, or punitive sanctions, or musings about the way the world is, or even an apology. I will unblock you if you meet the standard criteria for unblocking. That's it. I have spelled out what to do to meet these criteria. It's literally all spelled out. All you have to do is affirm what I said, in a genuine statement that shows that you understand what has already been explained and will make a change to avoid continued drama. You can take it or leave it, but I assure you that it is the correct path. Read the guide for yourself if you don't believe me. Should you meet this standard, any other logical and reasonable policy-based concerns can be considered, addendums can be made if necessary, but ultimately I will guarantee that you will be unblocked. The only thing I don't think I've covered that other people are concerned about is for you to sound human. I mean, someone above has the impression that you "masturbate to gore". Someone else said you lack basic human empathy. I get it, people have morbid curiosity and become desensitized to these videos, and I'm not going to punish you for that. I don't know whether you truly lack empathy or not, but that's no one's place to say. Lack of empathy is an objective disorder that affects ordinary people. It is not a decision to be evil (although it is stigmatized and misunderstood as such). We are not the empathy police. We are enforcers of basic objective standards. I will unblock you over objections that are not in line with policy or demands that exceed the scope of the offense. But a simple acknowledgment that, ideology aside, you can actually comprehend the emotional backlash you've sparked would go a long way. ] <sup>]</sup> 04:46, 4 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :As an uninvolved editor, I just wanted to tackle what seems the be a major disconnect here. | |||
| Really, all it takes is one person to put an article up for deletion. Others may or may not agree, but there are many people who have a narrow view what they like. ] (]) 00:44, 5 January 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{tq|What I don't understand is why looking at or sharing a video of a terrible injustice being done to them would reflect a lack of empathy.}} | |||
| :Because sharing the video comes across as ''exploitative''. It's being shared & viewed because it's ''taboo''. The thrill of sharing/watching such a video becomes the primary purpose. Or, in your case, using it to disrupt the WMF as part of a cause. '''That''' is why people are objecting to its inclusion on Misplaced Pages, along with other videos depicting killings. Such material needs to be handled with care, or else it's simply exploitation of the dead. | |||
| :Misplaced Pages isn't improved by adding the video, because we can't provide any valuable commentary beyond "it exists." Any use of that video for information or education has to be handled ''very'' delicately, and with guided purpose, or we're right back to this exploitation. It stops being about informing, and becomes about the spectacle or the way it affects the audience. Which brings me to the next point: | |||
| ::{{tq|How is it empathetic not to be willing to see a person crying, or a person fighting back?}} | |||
| :For one, many victims families aren't going to be suddenly comforted by seeing their loved ones killed, crying, begging for their lives, or even fighting back. Even to people ''not'' related to the victims, witnessing brutal murders can be '''traumatic'''. | |||
| :So the idea that it's ''less'' empathetic to refuse to share/view such material is... unorthodox, to say the least. Regardless of how violent our entertainment media can be, we all know that it's just pretend... and even then, some people are uncomfortable watching it. Expecting most people to be alright seeing ''actual'' murders is a huge disconnect. | |||
| :I work in a healthcare environment. I've seen a lot of deaths, including some very gory ones. And I ''still'' don't want to see videos like this one, because I empathize too much with the victims & their families. I don't '''need''' to see it to know how awful the experience would be. | |||
| :And that's been Misplaced Pages's stance for the longest time. ] and other policies exist precisely because sharing ''everything'' possible can cause more harm than good. | |||
| : | |||
| :I've seen you pop up on Misplaced Pages lots of times over the years I've been here. You do good work, but your unflinching stance on censorship has always struck me as naive at best. I wish it hadn't taken '''this''' for you to realize that Misplaced Pages was never the bastion of free speech you believe it to be. And I'm hoping this post helps you understand why you've always faced an uphill battle on that front. We can't just consider "is this informative?" but also "what impact does sharing this have on the victims, their families, and ''our audience''?" Weighing those things is not easy, and we can't just treat ] as the only goal. That route causes harm to real people. | |||
| :It sounds like now you understand using that video to disrupt Misplaced Pages was never really going to help. Even outside the "power struggle" aspect you mentioned before, it was just going to make things worse. I'm hoping this explanation I've written helps you understand ''why'' this particular choice of topic was especially egregious. If that makes any sense, I hope it helps you form your unblock request & find your way forward in the future. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 21:12, 4 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :::Amen. Well stated. Compassion is superior to reason for human beings. Every time. Not even close. :::Life is not a video game. People bleed and people die and those who loved them are left deavasted. ] (]) 02:51, 5 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| === Draft unblock === | |||
| == cablegate citation template discussion == | |||
| {{ping|Swarm}} Thank you for putting into a lot of effort into trying to find a way forward. There is still a good chance the following is insufficient, so per the guideline I'll ping you to ask if the draft covers everything I need to cover before putting an unblock template on it. | |||
| Hi Wnt, you might be interested in participating in the rather practical discussion of what the cablegate citation template should actually loook like: ]. The template itself is at ]. ] (]) 01:32, 6 January 2011 (UTC) | |||
| <br />a) I understand that several of my edits to WP:FRAM were highly disruptive and not useful to build an encyclopedia. | |||
| <br />b) I understand that Misplaced Pages is a collaborative effort and that I failed to take the very strongly worded comments of fellow editors into consideration several times leading up to this, or to show them proper respect. | |||
| <br />c) I understand that there is a large group of editors telling me that links to these graphic videos are excluded by some aspect of BLP policy or ELNEVER, even when used for encyclopedic reasons. | |||
| <br />a) I will be more mindful of ] in the future. In particular, it is not my goal to 'make a point' or 'fail to get the point' or otherwise play games with this issue that can only be counterproductive. | |||
| <br />b) I will respect the need for civil discussion about contentious article changes. | |||
| <br />c) I will consider links to videos or images showing the death of identifiable persons to be against overall Misplaced Pages policy, as evidenced by this block, unless and until I see a strong, widely supported consensus to the contrary. Judging by this discussion, I doubt that is going to happen. (By 'identifiable persons' I mean to exclude anatomical and surgical images of anonymous donors that I think are still widely accepted on the site) | |||
| <br />d) I will bear in mind that there are fundamental emotional factors involved here that I don't understand, with a mutual perception of lack of empathy between some like myself and many fellow editors, and that my initial assumptions about why this is happening are unlikely to be accurate. | |||
| Going forward: images of death were only a tiny number of my overall edits, so there is still plenty of useful ground that I could cover if given the chance. ] (]) 22:30, 8 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :It doesn't look like they're arguing about policy, just the best thing to name the cable parameter/template. I think naming a template is pretty much the prerogative of whoever is willing to wade in and do the task (which if it involves the cite web template might be formidable). Unless someone starts an administrative process to delete the template or parameter or otherwise change it by force, I think I should just let the person who had the idea bring it to completion. ] (]) 10:41, 6 January 2011 (UTC) | |||
| *So sorry, Wnt. I'm fine with this. I'm still open to unblocking. Just ping the blocking admin and address any outstanding concerns. ] <sup>]</sup> 05:06, 17 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| *: {{ping|Swarm|El C}} Apart from the ping suggested I'm not sure what I should say at this point, except that was going on with UTRS on this page I indeed know nothing about. ] (]) 22:56, 17 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :::Wnt, when you write {{tq|even when used for encyclopedic reasons}}, I'm wondering if you had a chance to read THTF extensive comment, in which they partially say: {{tq|Misplaced Pages isn't improved by adding the video, because we can't provide any valuable commentary beyond "it exists."}} Other than that, I suppose your draft more or less checks all the boxes. I still have reservations, however, sorry to say. But I'm not going to stand in the way of consensus to unblock, either. ] 23:23, 17 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ==DYK for Critical Foreign Dependencies Initiative== | |||
| {{tmbox | |||
| |style = notice | |||
| |small = | |||
| |image = ] | |||
| |text = On ], ''']''' was updated with a fact from the article ''''']''''', which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ''... that information on the ''']''' list ] by ] was stated by some companies on the list to be "out of date and full of errors"?'' You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page <small>(], )</small> and add it to ] if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the ]. | |||
| }} ] | ] 18:04, 18 January 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :Sweet. - ] (]) 22:04, 18 January 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ==Talkback== | |||
| {{talkback|SchuminWeb|ts=15:00, 30 January 2011 (UTC)}} | |||
| ] (]) 15:00, 30 January 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{re|El C}} My statement was that it is clear I need to treat the video as against Misplaced Pages policy regardless, so I shouldn't debate about criteria for what I said won't affect that. You can treat it as a hypothetical if you prefer. ] (]) 00:09, 18 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| == Israel mediation == | |||
| :::::I'll repeat more tersely: did you get a chance to read THTF extensive comment? I'm asking because I think it's worth reflecting on. ] 01:11, 18 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ] has agreed to mediate a ] at which you commented recently. I encourage you to decide whether you would like to add yourself as a party to the mediation. ] 14:28, 2 February 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :I |
::::::{{re|El C}} I did read it, and my comment about fundamental emotional factors was based in part on what he said. The things that he and some others are saying carry a broad resonance and provoke wider thoughts about the nature of Misplaced Pages as a whole, but these stray from the currently permitted scope, I think. I cannot deny that using the shooting for a 'political' purpose is, as always, exploitative. ] (]) 01:59, 18 July 2019 (UTC) | ||
| :::::::{{ping|Swarm}} Is there something else I should do? ] (]) 21:21, 23 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ===unblocked=== | |||
| I think Wnt has learned his lesson, so the block no longer serves a useful purpose. I have unblocked you. -- ] ] ] ] ♠ 00:35, 24 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :I questioned this action at the user's talk, they replied a day later that this was "unfair" to this user. I asked that they seek a review of their action , yet note that their talk page says that replies will come in 72 hours. ] 04:34, 25 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::Punitive. At this point, without any further issue, it is not possible to reblock without a sense of it being punitive. I think this is best dropped here. ] (]) 04:38, 25 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :::I did not regard the block of this user as punitive and disagree with the characterisation of the action as administering a punishment subject to parole. ] 06:06, 25 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ==Notice of noticeboard discussion== | |||
| ==WP:EVENT== | |||
| ] There is currently a discussion at ] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.<!--Template:AN-notice-->--<span style="background-color:#cee">]</span> ] 19:47, 1 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :Closed with no action. ''']] (])''' 07:23, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :I provided the diff () at that discussion - this is the first instance where the "enduring historical significance '''and''' meets the GNG" was added. I deeply dislike this wording because it makes it even harder for events to be considered as notable, and because I know far too well that by Misplaced Pages standards the next Pokemon character or the dress worn by some actress at a movie awards ceremony has enduring historical significance, but the death of 25 protesters in Kashmir does not. If we just go by the multiple secondary sources criterion, at least we won't increase the biases already present in news reporting. ] (]) 02:07, 19 February 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::I think you've misunderstood. WP:NOTNEWS already imposed a restriction greater than WP:GNG, what WP:EVENT does is attempt to reconcile the two. It has always been stricter than WP:GNG, that's the whole intent of the guideline. If your interpretation was correct and all that was needed for an article on an event was a handful of news articles that all appeared within a couple of days of the event, we might as well delete ]. ]<span style="background-color:white; color:#808080;">&</span>] 03:21, 19 February 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :::No, it ''never'' imposed any such restriction. It says ''"breaking news should not be emphasized or otherwise treated differently from other information."'' Though it couldn't be more clear, yes, I know, '''''every single time''''' the policy is mentioned, it is as if it said something else. The specific examples they give -- "routine news reporting on things like announcements, sports, or celebrities is not a sufficient basis for inclusion" -- should be taken to refer to items that don't receive coverage from multiple secondary sources independent of the subject. A local paper covering the school sports team may not be independent, and an article may not be covered multiple times - but it's clear enough that lots of sports does get covered. And the reason is that just because it is not '''sufficient''' basis for inclusion, it is also not a basis for '''exclusion'''. ] (]) 03:33, 19 February 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ==IRC invitation== | |||
| Because I have noticed you commenting at the current RfC regarding Pending Changes, I wanted to invite you to the IRC channel for . If you are not customarily logged into the IRC, . This under used resource can allow real time discussion at this particularly timely venture of the trial known as Pending Changes. Even if nothing can come from debating points there, at least this invitation is delivered with the best of intentions and good faith expectations. Kind regards. ''']]''' 08:30, 2 March 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :I've never been much of a fan of IRC - is there really a continuous 24-hour days-long discussion going on about pending changes??? Even if there were it would seem impossible to keep track of in such a medium, unless there's something I'm missing. ] (]) 18:33, 2 March 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == |
==Welcome back== | ||
| I don't know what the fuck you were thinking, but it's water under the bridge. Go and sin no more, as the Jesus dude said. You might think about coming up with an off-wiki venting mechanism, it might save you from some grief. Wikipediocracy is there if you need it, but you will get the shit kicked out of you the first week, be advised. Anyway, all's well that ends eventually. best, tim //// ] (]) 02:20, 24 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| {{talkback|User_talk:NickCT#browser_through_what.3F}} ] (]) 15:36, 10 March 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :Welcome back Wnt, I hope you have more success in avoiding trouble. ''']] (])''' 03:28, 26 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| == Khaled Saeed photo == | |||
| ::Still waiting for you to get back. Hit me up when you do! Just want to know. ''']] (])''' 10:01, 23 August 2019 (UTC) | |||
| Hi, I would appreciate your opinion here if you have a few minutes... bring your policy hat and fair use folder... http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Non-free_content_review#File:Khalid-Saeed.jpg ] (]) 03:25, 15 March 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ==]== | |||
| ] | |||
| This is an automated message from ]. I have performed a search with the contents of ], and it appears to be very similar to another Misplaced Pages page: ]. It is possible that you have accidentally duplicated contents, or made an error while creating the page— you might want to look at the pages and see if that is the case. If you are intentionally trying to rename an article, please see ] for instructions on how to do this without copying and pasting. If you are trying to move or copy content from one article to a different one, please see ] and be sure you have acknowledged the duplication of material in an ] to preserve attribution history. | |||
| Glad you got unblocked, Wnt. I do not agree with the way you have been treated. I hope you will continue to contribute. --] (]) 04:25, 26 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| *Welcome back, sorry that took so long, happy to see King handled it. ] <sup>]</sup> 05:38, 26 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :For future reference, "#REDIRECT" was omitted. I think a good bot could place this automatically when an article consists of a single link and nothing else. ] (]) 02:41, 27 March 2011 (UTC) | |||
| You don't appear to be very active, but since you're officially still here, I am celebrating. It was a devastating blow to have you gone, to be honest. There is a small handful of editors whose presence makes this place bearable, whose insight and opinions never resemble the cookie-cutter echo-chamber bullshit from the masses, and for me, you are one of them. Best, '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 19:50, 11 August 2019 (UTC) | |||
| Don't know exactly what you did, not sure I'd have a definite opinion on it anyway - except that it backfired as a revolutionary tactic. Regardless, I hope you readjust to the current reality, and that it is not so odious that you feel the need to throw yourself upon the wheels again - welcome back, be excellent! All the best: ''] ]'',<small> 20:28, 28 September 2019 (UTC).</small><br /> | |||
| ==Eye test question== | |||
| == Nomination for deletion of Module:WikiLink == | |||
| Re , while your answer was not inappropriate, the question was. This person is asking for advice on how to illegally obtain a driving license by ignoring laws put in place for public safety. If there isn't a specific policy against this, common sense should suffice--] ] 05:30, 17 April 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ]] and ] have been ]. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ] ] 21:23, 29 October 2019 (UTC) | |||
| == A book on brainwashing == | |||
| :I don't think the OP knows what he wants. A few pointers in the ''right'' direction can be helpful in such cases. Besides, he already and responded to the duh obvious suggestions that come up for that situation. There's no policy against this - we just had a big argument about that on the talk page and that's still the situation. ] (]) 05:42, 17 April 2011 (UTC) | |||
| I find it interesting. | |||
| You have done a lot, imo, to promote reality and thinking. That's the best thing anyone can do, these days particularly. ] (]) 00:36, 1 November 2019 (UTC) | |||
| == Nomination for deletion of Module:FindFeatures == | |||
| ]] has been ]. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ] ] 19:54, 11 November 2019 (UTC) | |||
| == A survey to improve the community consultation outreach process == | |||
| == Poster == | |||
| Hello! | |||
| The poster is clearly part of the . It's the same photo. -- ] (]) 21:52, 22 April 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :Ah I came across the same link a few minutes later! Seems like the campaign is a year old, and pretty much escaped any ] when it first appeared ]] 22:08, 22 April 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::I sent ] a message, so hopefully it will get a mention in an upcoming Signpost. ]<sup>(]•])</sup> 02:33, 23 April 2011 (UTC) | |||
| The Wikimedia Foundation is seeking to improve the community consultation outreach process for Foundation policies, and we are interested in why you didn't participate ] that followed ] you’ve been part of. | |||
| == What's with you and ED? == | |||
| Please fill out to help us improve our community consultation process for the future. It should only take about three minutes. | |||
| Are you a member or something? Because I don't know why you're trying to make it easier for the trolls over at .ch to spam Misplaced Pages and to break our policy rules. Our linking to ED itself in the first place was already restricted in the past, this isn't any different, beyond the fact that we have copyright issues to deal with as well. <font color="silver">]</font><font color="blue">]</font><sup>]</sup> 08:07, 26 April 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :Misplaced Pages has a responsibility to treat the reader honestly. The current ] article gives people reading the idea that the site is dead and gone, without so much as mentioning the word mirror. Only by consulting some ''reliable'' source (or the talk page) do they suddenly discover that Misplaced Pages has misled them out of some unctuous sense of morality. This site is not a court, and it is not up to us to be "unpersoning" sites we think are inappropriate (if we do). That .ch site is based in the U.S., a country not generally known for lax copyright enforcement - if there's anything to the legal case it will be down faster than you can say "temporary injunction". | |||
| The privacy policy for this survey is . This survey is a one-off request from us related to this unique topic. | |||
| :Additionally, the ED case has implications for Misplaced Pages, in the sense that it was a free wiki that people voluntarily contributed to. Will people find that their free contributions are being used as the private property of a single site owner? If so, I think that the community spirit on every Wiki, including this one, is dimmed. I know Misplaced Pages has clearer CC licensing and mirrors exist, but there's always some legal technicality that can be brought up. If Misplaced Pages were taken down, does anyone have the full history? Then someone can say the mirrors don't provide individual author attribution. So they say using the individual edits violates copyright ... before long it's in the same position. Also note that in order for Misplaced Pages to continue as a ''living'' institution after some disruption, people would have to organize and choose a single mirror site to get behind. All these things are being tested ''now'' in the ED case. And potential editors will, directly or indirectly, pick up what to expect from what they see. | |||
| Thank you for your participation, ] 10:45, 13 November 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :Last but not least... it is funny, isn't it? And as a community it stands up to lots of would be censors to say anything that comes to mind, no matter what. ] (]) 12:47, 26 April 2011 (UTC) | |||
| <!-- Message sent by User:Trizek (WMF)@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/search/?title=User:Trizek_(WMF)/sandbox/temp_MassMessage_list&oldid=19553910 --> | |||
| ::.ch has yet to be mentioned in any reliable sources. We've already discussed on the talk page that we don't have an issue with adding a sentence mentioning that mirrors exist, citing the Gawker reference, but we're not going to add info about a site that isn't discussed. | |||
| == ] == | |||
| ::Do you actually know anything about Misplaced Pages's copyright policy? Each wiki has their own policy, most of them being like what ED had. Misplaced Pages is rather revolutionary in the fact that it allows people to copy any of its content and use it, even monetarily, just so long as they attribute the content to Misplaced Pages. And, as we've seen from Google books, a lot of websites and publishers have taken advantage of this to make a pretty penny off of our articles. But most wikis have the copyright of ED, essentially that the content is copyrighted to the site itself and cannot be used commercially or in any other form without permission. | |||
| Got any more Q&As to add? ] (]) 10:29, 17 November 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::All ED members had to do was ask Sherrod for permission to make a mirror of the content, permission that would likely have been granted in the beginning before all of their actions. But, of course, they didn't, because they never had a positive opinion of Sherrod, since they are trolls. It's just like how 4chan looks at its owner, moot. They don't respect him at all. There's word that moot is thinking about doing the same thing that Sherrod did and I don't blame him. I certainly wouldn't keep up a site with members who constantly harass you. <font color="silver">]</font><font color="blue">]</font><sup>]</sup> 17:09, 26 April 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == ArbCom 2019 election voter message == | |||
| * , please. Because it seems very obvious to me and, if so, it would mean that you are trying to game us all here. <font color="silver">]</font><font color="blue">]</font><sup>]</sup> 17:40, 26 April 2011 (UTC) | |||
| <table class="messagebox " style="border: 1px solid #AAA; background: ivory; padding: 0.5em; width: 100%;"> | |||
| ::I have no idea what you think I am trying to "game". Could you explain that? I don't get what your link is even supposed to argue. I think what you're missing in your ED "controversy" about the supposed copyright issue, is that if ED is shut down and does not continue, then there will be a very simple message sent to all those looking to attack a wiki: all you need to do is get some leverage over the person in charge, and you can shut it down for good. The idea that a community of contributors exists, who are authors with a stake in the enterprise, who can go on on their own - it all implodes. The point of contributing to a Wiki implodes. | |||
| <tr><td style="vertical-align:middle; padding-left:1px; padding-right:0.5em;">]</td><td>Hello! Voting in the ''']''' is now open until 23:59 on {{#time:l, j F Y|{{Arbitration Committee candidate/data|2019|end}}-1 day}}. All ''']''' are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once. | |||
| The ] is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the ]. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose ], ], editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The ] describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. | |||
| ::If Misplaced Pages were abruptly shut down, I don't think it would be any harder to come up with specious copyright arguments against someone trying to create a new mirror site of it. You say that contributors aren't acknowledged due to loss of history, or lost talk or project pages, or deleted pages. There's always ''some'' way to claim a copyright problem. What I think that means is: if ED.ch does ''not'' succeed, then Misplaced Pages will likely face a serious attack to destroy it and enslave its content within the next five years. We will have to mobilize against the possibility, for example, by ensuring that '''full''' mirror sites exist, complete with the entire page history and attribution and even the deleted edits and articles, in multiple countries. | |||
| If you wish to participate in the 2019 election, please review ] and submit your choices on the ''']'''. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add {{tlx|NoACEMM}} to your user talk page. ] (]) 00:10, 19 November 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::But nothing in the text you've quoted from that site has ever convinced me that ''anyone'' agreed to a '''copyright transfer''' in which they would lose the right to use their own contributions. Nor does it seem clear to me that the license granted was restricted to one Web address. It says "All original content on EncyclopediaDramatica is licensed to Encyclopedia Dramatica." But as I said at Talk:Encyclopedia Dramatica for other reasons, I think that Encyclopedia Dramatica is a collective ''creative work'', like a book or a movie. As long as a site is aspiring to ''be'' Encyclopedia Dramatica, I think that license should hold. But even if it doesn't hold, copying edits that people made for the purpose of public display and merciless editing should fall well within Fair Use. I can't see any reasonable way to claim that the Google Cache is OK and this is wrong, unless you accept the somewhat realistic but politically intolerable position that copyright is a blank check that allows the government to reward sites or shut them down at whim, without any logic at all. ] (]) 22:49, 26 April 2011 (UTC) | |||
| </td></tr> | |||
| </table> | |||
| <!-- Message sent by User:Cyberpower678@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2019/Coordination/MMS/03&oldid=926750323 --> | |||
| ==Happy First Edit Day!== | |||
| <div class="boilerplate metadata" style="background-color:#E6E6FA; border: 1px solid #7D00B3; margin: 0.5em auto; padding: 0.5em; width:90%; text-align: center">]<span style="font-weight:bold;font-size:125%;">Happy First Edit Day!</span>] | |||
| Have a very happy first edit anniversary! | |||
| From the ], ]<sup>]</sup> 16:43, 21 December 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :::''Two of my favorite editors. Nough said I hope.'' ] <sup>]</sup> 22:54, 26 April 2011 (UTC) | |||
| </div> | |||
| == Nomination for deletion of Module:ATA == | |||
| ]] has been ]. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ] ] 01:30, 12 January 2020 (UTC) | |||
| == Wnt is back! == | |||
| :::Sorry, I just got kind of angry when I saw that conversation. Why are you supporting .ch in the name of discordianism, anyways? | |||
| :) . ] (]) 14:59, 7 March 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::You're doing this because you think Misplaced Pages is going to be attacked? I think this whole thing with .ch is representative of the fact that you should know about the copyright of a site if you are going to be contributing content to it. If Misplaced Pages shut down, other sites would be allowed to mirror it without issue, so long as it stated that all of the information was from Misplaced Pages (attributing it). Unfortunately, ED did not have the same copyright as Misplaced Pages does. I've explained this multiple times already. | |||
| * If you're back, remove yourself from ]. ''']] (])''' 07:11, 26 July 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::While I may want to agree with you on how copyright should work, i'm afraid that's not how it '''does''' work. The law doesn't recognize a community of people as a creative work or, at least, i've never heard of it doing so before. And I only see it doing that if the original owner petitioned for it to be as such. Fair use does not apply to such content and, if it did, it certainly wouldn't apply to wholesale copying of entire pages. Fair Use policy is very specific in how it may be used, as you know. | |||
| == A new article you may be interested in == | |||
| :::Google Cache is an archival service that works with sites to get them more hits. Sites willingly allow Google to use its cache service so that people can find content. Google only creates a cache for your site if you add specific code that allows Google to do so, forming a sort of contract between the site and Google. Also, Google Cache actively deletes caches for sites that have gone dead. It might take a while, since it works with the whole internet, but eventually Google will remove those caches of ED, since the site is dead and the contract has thus ended. | |||
| I looked at inlinks to ] and a comment you made at Jimbo's talk came up. Just thought you might be interested that the article exists now. ☆ ] (]) 21:46, 8 April 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::Last thing is that we need to find out if Sherrod had gotten the ED logo trade-marked. Because, if she did, since .ch uses the same logo (albeit with the added words under it), that would be compounding their copyright violations. <font color="silver">]</font><font color="blue">]</font><sup>]</sup> 03:17, 27 April 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ==Your draft article, ]== | |||
| ] | |||
| Hello, Wnt. It has been over six months since you last edited the ] submission or ] page you started, "]". | |||
| ::::I don't understand what you would feel angry about. ED is a site running in the United States - hardly a haven for copyright or trademark violation. If Sherrod has a case she will probably have a temporary restraining order in no time - should have had one already, probably. You can say that ED contributors should have demanded a more perfect free-licensing of their contributions, but the ''gist'' of either version was to make them freely available. Even Misplaced Pages decided it had gotten the free license wrong and ended up going back and switching from GFDL to CC. Who knows if that will actually stand up in court if tested. To me Misplaced Pages and ED are two closely related phenomena, which are influenced by the same factors. Whatever destroys one may well destroy the other. | |||
| In accordance with our policy that Misplaced Pages is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia ], the draft has been deleted. If you plan on working on it further and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion by following the instructions at ]. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it. | |||
| ::::Personally I am not a believer in copyright or other intellectual property - I feel that it is a dying system, totally reliant on state power and arbitrary judicial boundaries, which approaches infinite inefficiency, which imposes trade deficits on those countries like the U.S. which rely on it or enforce it more strictly. But I'm not suggesting Misplaced Pages make a statement about copyright, only that it avoid trying to leap in and decide a case before the courts do. It's one thing to say you should never link to sites you find stuffed onto free web providers which say grab this pirated video before it's gone, quite another to look at a site out in the open and claim it's a violation. WP's reaction to possible violations on external links is a pragmatic safety measure, but it is ''not'' a moral crusade. We are simply doing what seems needed to stay out of trouble while we wait for the established copyright system to collapse the way communism did in the 1980s. ] (]) 05:14, 27 April 2011 (UTC) | |||
| Thanks for your submission to Misplaced Pages, and happy editing. <!-- Template:Db-draft-deleted --><!-- Template:Db-csd-deleted-custom --> <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 15:42, 2 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Oh, and the trademark issue is something I mentioned in the discussion previously; but since it hasn't been raised I doubt it applies. I don't recall seeing any R's or TM's by the ED logo, and I doubt Sherrod can get a trademark now, for a name she no longer uses. Even if she does have a case, there's no WP policy about links to trademark infringement, because ''that's'' a crapshoot that makes copyright lawsuits look predictable. ] (]) 05:46, 27 April 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Nomination for deletion of Module:Hex == | |||
| ]] has been ]. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ] ] 04:22, 24 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ==Happy First Edit Day!== | |||
| <!-- ##RW UNDERDATE## --> | |||
| <div class="boilerplate metadata" style="background-color:#E6E6FA; border: 1px solid #7D00B3; margin: 0.5em auto; padding: 0.5em; width:90%; text-align: center">]<span style="font-weight:bold;font-size:125%;">Happy First Edit Day!</span>] | |||
| Have a very happy first edit anniversary! | |||
| From the ], ]<sup>]</sup> 05:46, 21 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
| == Rights removed == | |||
| </div> | |||
| == Nomination for deletion of ] == | |||
| ]] has been ]. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ] (] | ]) 14:00, 11 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
| == WP:MEDRS == | |||
| I may be feeding your trolling (not sure) but after this post it is obvious that you can't be left reviewing edits.--] 21:07, 11 May 2011 (UTC) | |||
| Hi. I came across now archived ] talk and wanted to let you know that I too faced instanced of misapplication of ] guideline but I haven't a chance to comment on. I suggest you to take a look at this ] request and visit the ]. I suggest you to put the latter on your watch list (but please leave no comment in there as the proposal is rather poor). Thanks! | |||
| :I never asked for them, but I never asked for them to be taken away either. At least we have established that reviewer rights are assessed according to ''political belief'', not the quality with which people review edits, and that this is done without regard to policy - in fact, in the absence of policy. ] (]) 02:13, 12 May 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've discussed the issue with the removing administrator, and he's stated he would like to hear from you. Please see the discussion at ]. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 09:57, 12 May 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thanks for letting me know. ] (]) 18:27, 12 May 2011 (UTC) | |||
| Thanks for the solid on the ] page. As the person that originally posted the fact that she had been offered $5M for 1 explicit scene (and lost his reviewer rights for doing so as well) I appreciate your defense of policy and established protocols. ] (]) 13:47, 18 May 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :I saw this<sup>Clarify:Wnt's right removal</sup> as it happened and was pretty shocked. Regardless of your opinion on an article's content, reviewer status should be removed only if it is misused, and removing it prevents harm to the encyclopaedia. Whereas when pending changes is not even active, this was a ] move by an admin who should know better ''']]''' 14:41, 18 May 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::When that edit occured I brought the admin's behavior to AN/I and things boomeranged from there. I was a little taken aback by the fact that a decision was rendered in only a couple of hours, but as I had offered to relinquish my rights if the community felt I was in the wrong I had no cause to complain. ] (]) 15:36, 18 May 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :::Discussion of the decision is at ]. It's clear that some of the supporters of PC actually stand behind these actions, while others disagree; I hope we've argued enough that it will not be accepted as a ''de facto'' policy change. There is no process that I know of to formally appeal or get consensus on reviewer rights being granted or taken away, and as they were given to me quite arbitrarily, I suppose them being taken away in the same way is only fair. There was even a suggestion on that page that all the test reviewers might lose rights as the test winds down, something which I don't oppose. In any case, they've served their purpose -- I received them as a test of the system, and I've used them to identify a problem. If taking reviewer rights really meant giving up the right to oppose BLP-based removal of well sourced, NPOV content anywhere on Misplaced Pages, then I wouldn't keep them long in any case. Now it's time to watch ] or wherever the discussion goes next, and make sure that censorship by (and of) reviewers never happens. ] (]) 20:08, 18 May 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Request == | |||
| {| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;" | |||
| |rowspan="2" valign="middle" | {{#ifeq:{{{2}}}|alt|]|]}} | |||
| Hello sir, may I get the youtube video with this link allegedly connected with the norway attacks. -->https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQOfH8Dj1mw. Thank you. --] (]) 03:23, 20 April 2021 (UTC) | |||
| |rowspan="2" | | |||
| |style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Resilient Barnstar''' | |||
| |- | |||
| |style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | for grace under the personal attack of ], mass BLP deleter. ] (]) 15:12, 16 May 2011 (UTC) | |||
| |} | |||
| :Let me just say that I completely support this barnstar as well. <font color="silver">]</font><font color="blue">]</font><sup>]</sup> 01:49, 19 May 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'll second that. ] (]) 02:11, 19 May 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == |
== Why Wnt left Misplaced Pages == | ||
| Create a mini-project to bring the articles of ], ], ], and ] up to GA/FA status. Possibly expand to include others whose deaths became symbols of war and peace (i.e. ]). Would you like to work on something like this? ]<sup> ]|]</sup> 21:18, 4 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| <blockquote>Problem is, Misplaced Pages doesn't work. Their front page ad for today is for some arena battle video game I never heard of. Their article on Gab (social network) has a literal yellow Jude star next to it in a not so subtle condemnation of occasional failures to censor. They have elaborate networks of Misplaced Pages lobbyists and corporate tie-ins. Their good content is mostly left over from a bygone age. When we look at almost any of the great collaborative projects, they have been compromised to near uselessness by what appear to be paid saboteurs.</blockquote> | |||
| : I was upset that Misplaced Pages would delete the Khaled Said picture that was pivotal in the Egyptian protests, and I participated to a minor extent in keeping up with the news reports, but this isn't really a subject area I'd be very good at. You really need people who understand the culture and the Arabic sources to do a good job with something like that. Actually, I haven't really focused on FA/GA status in general - overall I prefer applying the first broad strokes rather than finishing touches. ] (]) 00:13, 5 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| * I went full bore at the Said image and now it's up for good. I agree that first strokes are critical, and to be honest there may sadly be more individuals like this. When that happens, it'd be nice to have a team ready to coordinate gathering sources, etc. I'm not sure arabic sources will be necessary, but we do have some native Arabic speakers ready to go as well. ]. Might need a new name, but check it out... ]<sup> ]|]</sup> 04:37, 5 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ] (]) 12:55, 26 September 2021 (UTC) | |||
| == Just wanted to say == | |||
| :Link is no longer functional. ] (]) 01:35, 19 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| Hi, Wnt. I don't think we've interacted on any pages, although I've seen your name around for a long time. I just wanted to say that I really appreciate some of your recent, insightful comments about BLP concerns at WP. , in particular, was right on the mark. I hope your predictions won't come true, but I very much fear they will. Cheers, ] (]) 08:07, 5 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Ways to improve Calyx Institute == | |||
| :I came here to express my general agreement with , although I'm less pessimistic than you. The reason for my comparative optimism is that, by the nature of Misplaced Pages, it can change with the arrival or departure of a fairly small number of editors, along with the possibility of individuals remaining in the project but changing their minds. | |||
| Hello, Wnt, | |||
| :Nevertheless, things admittedly are bad enough that the idea of a fork has at least flitted through my mind. If you ever start compiling a list of editors to be recruited for the new project, please add me -- JimLane at americamail dot com. Meanwhile, let's hang in there and keep trying to get information to the readers, subversive as that objective sometimes is. ]<small> ] ]</small> 16:30, 6 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::i agree. there seems to be a drift of "admin knows best"; the use of reversion tools during the ], while we were waiting for reliable sources to out people; office tools about the ]. it appears to be lawyer driven. the foundation knows the trends are bad, when will we have the leadership. on the other hand, the wiki can route around the admins. ] (]) 16:52, 6 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| Thank you for creating ]. | |||
| :::Maybe I ''was'' being overly pessimistic - I'm glad to see that people are putting up a fight there. But I don't know. Clearly a fork to Misplaced Pages is not an easy thing, and not something to be done lightly - but it's not too early for people to start thinking about the obstacles involved. There are some very, very much simpler experiments that might be helpful to run first... ] (]) 22:07, 8 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ] have tagged ] as having some issues to fix, as a part of our ] and note that: | |||
| == ] == | |||
| As you participated in ], you may be interested in ]. ] (]) 10:14, 5 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| {{Quote|1=This page is looking really good but it's in a mostly-list format and could be better served by wrapping all the individual sentences into paragraphs}} | |||
| :I feel like I repeated myself... then again, I feel like everyone is repeating themselves. The policies are bad to begin with. ] (]) 19:11, 5 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, leave a comment here and begin it with <code><nowiki>{{Re|</nowiki>Jessamyn<nowiki>}}</nowiki></code>. Remember to sign your reply with <code><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></code>. For broader editing help, please visit the ]. | |||
| ==Quercetin== | |||
| <small>Delivered via the ] tool, on behalf of the reviewer.</small> <!-- Template:Taggednote-NPF --> | |||
| Please see Talk:Quercetin#Alternative medicine; I think the Alternative Medicine Review reference is well worth keeping. Wnt (talk) 18:50, 6 June 2011 (UTC). | |||
| : Sorry, Wnt, I agree with Yobol. --] (]) 03:46, 7 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ] (]) 02:56, 15 November 2021 (UTC) | |||
| ==DYK for Verotoxin-producing Escherichia coli== | |||
| == Nomination for deletion of ] == | |||
| {{tmbox | |||
| ]] has been ]. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ]<sup>]</sup> 09:18, 21 November 2021 (UTC) | |||
| |style = notice | |||
| |small = | |||
| |image = ] | |||
| |text = On ], ''']''' was updated with a fact from the article ''''']''''', which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ''... that ''']''' '']'' are responsible for tens of thousands of cases of ] a year?'' You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page <small>(], )</small> and add it to ] if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the ]. | |||
| }} ] (]) 12:04, 12 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :Heh, I never even noticed it was eligible! I should thank ] for creating the article and adding considerably more material than I did. ] (]) 17:44, 12 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Nomination of ] for deletion == | |||
| == Combined statement == | |||
| <div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">]</div>A discussion is taking place as to whether the article ''']''', to which you have , is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to ] or if it should be ]. | |||
| The discussion will take place at ] until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. | |||
| I agree with most of those statements. However, I think what you are doing is unnecessary, needlessly disruptive, and in general unhelpful. The ArbCom has not accepted the case, and even if they do accept it, there's no reason to think that that some terrible result will occur. Talking about getting the community to override the ArbCom is in general a recipe for drama. A statement of the sort you apparently envision is at this time both unhelpful and unnecessary. ] (]) 21:26, 13 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| To customise your preferences for automated AfD notifications for articles to which you've significantly contributed (or to opt-out entirely), please visit ]. Delivered by '']'' (]) 01:01, 9 February 2022 (UTC)<!-- User:SDZeroBot/AfD notifier/template --> | |||
| :Maybe that was a step too far - but some of them said rather plainly that they wanted a consensus or else they'd impose it. So why not work up a consensus? Still, if a few more of the 11 agree with you, then I have little choice but to give up the idea. It's only impressive if most of the participants in the case come out and agree on a set of principles. ] (]) 21:29, 13 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Nomination for deletion of ] == | |||
| ]] has been ]. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> – ] (]) 05:23, 12 May 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Nomination for deletion of ] == | |||
| ]] has been ]. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> – ] (]) 17:16, 17 May 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Nomination for deletion of ] == | |||
| ]] has been ]. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> – ] (]) 03:46, 18 May 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Nomination for deletion of ] == | |||
| ]] has been ]. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> – ] (]) 15:56, 13 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Nomination for deletion of ] == | |||
| ]] has been ]. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ] (]) 21:40, 20 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Nomination for deletion of ] == | |||
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| == Nomination for deletion of ] == | |||
| ]] has been ]. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ] (]) 18:55, 22 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == Nomination for deletion of ] == | |||
| ]] has been ]. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ] (]) 15:50, 22 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == Nomination of ] for deletion == | |||
| <div class="afd-notice"> | |||
| <div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">]</div>A discussion is taking place as to whether the article ] is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to ] or whether it should be ]. | |||
| The article will be discussed at ''']''' until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines. | |||
| : Yes, I agree that the notion of the ArbCom imposing a content decision is troubling, but I don't think that is likely to occur in this situation at this time. Also, I'm concerned by your use of the term "faction" which sounds very ]. We're trying to work together to make an encyclopedia, not engage in politics and tribal feuding. ] (]) 21:33, 13 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished. | |||
| :: Honestly I feel like there ''is'' a lot of combativeness in this case. Even the ArbCom members seem unusually forward in their initial statements. And the 2012 election is just getting started... ] (]) 21:35, 13 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| <!-- Template:Afd notice --></div> ] (]) 22:28, 21 September 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == Nomination for deletion of ] == | |||
| ]] has been ]. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ] (]) 12:19, 19 November 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == Nomination for deletion of ] == | |||
| ]] has been ]. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ] (]) 12:22, 19 November 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == Nomination for deletion of ] == | |||
| ]] has been ]. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ] (]) 06:28, 20 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Nomination for deletion of ] == | |||
| ]] has been ]. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ] (]) 14:17, 1 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Nomination for deletion of ] == | |||
| ]] has been ]. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ] (]) 13:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Invitation == | |||
| :: {{done}} I've moved this to a more neutral title, ], in accordance with your comments. It's also pretty clear that there isn't a majority supporting all of the points, so a lengthy statement like this won't be the right vehicle to use to try to override them. I think there is still some use for this as a "common ground" sort of statement. ] (]) 15:58, 14 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| Hey {{u|Wnt}}, not sure if you ever look at this page anymore, but would be great if you'd come back some day... --] (]) 05:10, 8 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Faction proposal == | |||
| Hi Wnt, I think I'm going to have to pass on your joint statement. I'm not familiar with Cirt's editing enough to comment there, and I agree a few things Jayen has pointed to are troubling, such as the repeated introduction of self-published material. I'm also not convinced that the neologism needs to be added to those templates. So I'm not sure I'll have enough common ground with the proposed group overall to make it worth the time to edit this into something I'd be happy with. You're welcome to quote my summary of the news coverage, however, if others would like to adopt it as part of your joint statement. Thanks for trying to build even a limited consensus out of this mess. Cheers, ] (]) 21:30, 13 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :Oh well. Besides the two of you on this talk page I have one endorsing and one (Sandstein) demurring/disagreeing. It looks like I inferred more common ground than there is, but the results aren't all in. ] (]) 21:33, 13 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Diffs == | |||
| Could you provide a single diff supporting your serious allegation that editors working on behalf of Santorum have been active in the dispute? It sounds to me like a baseless smear without evidence, in which case you should retract it. Disclosure: I am not a Santorum supporter, but I know bullshit when I see it. ] (]) 07:18, 15 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| : Hmmm. In this case you may have a point. The first I heard of the "santorum controversy" '''' was 23:20 June 2. Santorum announced his candidacy on June 6, which is when I heard about it. But going over the article again I see someone found a source saying he announced he was going to announce on May 26.<sup></sup> I'll have to do something about this. ] (]) 15:43, 15 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Articles you might like to edit, from SuggestBot == | |||
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| SuggestBot picks articles in a number of ways based on other articles you've edited, including straight text similarity, following wikilinks, and matching your editing patterns against those of other Wikipedians. It tries to recommend only articles that other Wikipedians have marked as needing work. Your contributions make Misplaced Pages better — thanks for helping. | |||
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| P.S. You received these suggestions because your name was listed on ]. If this was in error, sorry about the confusion. -- ] (]) 22:21, 15 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :Hehe, I'm relieved to see that the bot has very little idea of how I think - though the obvious articles related to Wikileaks are always interesting. ;) I can see that after my editing the ] article it wants to serve me all sorts of WikiLeaks related stuff. But why is it so fixated on the ] which I really did very little editing of? And it completely ignored all the biology-related articles. I think the Zoo TV series results from one time I dug in and tried to sort out a trivia section I didn't care about in some cartoon article, just to see how such things look from a more detached perspective. In general, I feel like the bot is going in certain directions that are easiest for it to move, rather than closely matching my interests; it is also possible that it decided that some topics were related and tried to draw a line between them. ] (]) 23:24, 15 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Fair to note == | |||
| Dear Sir, | |||
| As I have responded directly to several of your comments at the pending RFAr page, I felt it only reasonable to inform you of that. Respectfully. — <small><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding:1px;"><b>]</b> : ]</span></small> 07:31, 16 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :By "santorum controversy" I mean the debate on Misplaced Pages. I've never viewed the coinage of "santorum" as a controversy at all. You say that "two wrongs don't make a right". But I doubt you're suggesting we not report Santorum is running in the primary in order to suppress his ideas. So why would you suggest we not report Savage's campaign to suppress his ideas? Richard of Earth said there could be embarrassment for Santorum's children, but have any committed suicide? Now ask yourself how many gay kids in the U.S. continue to die that way. That's the difference between a trumped-up Misplaced Pages issue and the real political issue to which we must defer. ] (]) 14:17, 16 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :: Thank you for your time. Regards, — <small><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding:1px;"><b>]</b> : ]</span></small> 19:29, 16 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :::Wnt, at the risk of seeming like I'm not assuming good faith I'd like to tell you that I am having a lot of trouble believing your claims about this - I don't doubt your claim to Vriditas when he called you on that other thing but I do doubt what you wrote to me. Your analogy is also way off base. No one is suggesting we censor information about Savage's campaign. What is being suggested is that we do not ''further his campaign''. If we had Misplaced Pages articles that furthered Santorum's campaign or his political ideas more generally as opposed to simply reporting facts about his candidacy I would also be outraged. And just to be clear my politics lean quite strongly to the left, way left of Mr. Santorum, and I find the views he expressed that sparked the Google bombing campaign deplorable. What I wont do, however, is sacrifice the integrity of Misplaced Pages to further my own political agenda. Cheers.] (]) 20:15, 16 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :::: When it's proposed to cut down a huge, highly detailed article to a few crummy sentences, it looks a ''lot'' like censorship to me. ] (]) 01:13, 17 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Comment invited on ] == | |||
| Wnt, you previously commented at ] on changes I had made there after a discussion with Jimbo at ]. {{User|Off2riorob}} and I are disagreeing on that same edit at ]. If you're so inclined, as someone who had also looked at the page and its sources, your input might be helpful. Thanks, // ] (]) 16:18, 18 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Wikiversity relativity pages == | |||
| hi Wnt, i noticed that you defended Wikiversity against a deletion proposal not so long ago, and you also seem to be involved in physics-related page in general. My guess is that my POV probably agrees with yours: Wikiversity is presently not very well developed, but is potentially a great project. i think that some important steps/elements are present in the project, but it's clear that the project is nowhere near having the critical mass of editors required at the moment. My guess is that contributing some serious and well-developed content on one course might help inspire others. Weak content is not going to grow exponentially. A small good core on a physics topic might lead to the required exponential growth - for similar reasons to the high quality of physics/maths articles on Misplaced Pages. You seem to be someone serious, so that's why i'm starting with you. | |||
| i'm going to try some minor tidying up of the relativity pages on Wikiversity, and adding at least some meta-comments about a "real life" course, and if it doesn't take me too long, i'll try putting my real-life course in place there (exam taking place right now, some students already have full marks :). Feel free to help tidy up my tidying and content there. ] (]) 08:55, 21 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :It's taken me virtually a whole day to do some general tidying up. Probably look at ] and then see if looking for resources on relativity (there are very few) seems clear enough in organisational structure. A general problem seems to be confusion between Wikiversity: namespace and main namespace there. You can also see some notes on ]. ] (]) 13:41, 21 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ==File copyright problem with File:Latin Kings tattoo example.png== | |||
| ] | |||
| Thank you for uploading ]. However, it currently is missing information on its '''copyright''' and '''licensing''' status. Misplaced Pages takes ] very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can verify that it has an acceptable license status and a verifiable source. Please add this information by editing the ]. You may refer to the ''']''' to learn what files you can or cannot upload on Misplaced Pages. The page on ''']''' may help you to find the correct tag to use for your file. If the file is already gone, you can still make a ] and ask for a chance to fix the problem.<!-- Template:You can request undeletion --> | |||
| Please also check any other files you may have uploaded to make sure they are correctly tagged. Here is . | |||
| If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the ]. Thanks again for your cooperation.<!-- Template:Di-no license-notice --> ] (]) 03:01, 24 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :Oh phooey, I thought I picked the PD-USGov via the menu. Sigh, let's go look... ] (]) 03:08, 24 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Thank you == | |||
| Wnt, I'm thankful to you for your comments regarding a recently created attack essay page about me. I agree with you with regard to your talk page comments about the inappropriate behavior going on at that page. Thanks again, — ''']''' (]) 19:49, 24 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == VPR comment == | |||
| Hi, I moved your VPR comment over to ], where banned users were mentioned. (Your comment rather baffled me until I thought to look there, given Jimbo's comment at VPR.) It's certainly not something that crossed my mind, and I don't see any advantage, and much disadvantage, in trying to link an idea of some sort of "jubilee" for banned users with this "forgiveness day" for active community members. So I hope you dont mind my moving your comment, since I don't want the discussion to go off in a different direction. Of course if you object to the move, you can undo it without risk of reversal or criticism (I know this sort of move is not a usual thing to do). ] <sup>]</sup> 02:25, 27 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :Hmmm, I hadn't been looking to hit that page again so soon, but I see the suggestion wasn't actually explained on the advertised thread. Ah well. ] (]) 04:03, 27 June 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Completely new abortion proposal and mediation== | |||
| In light of the seemingly endless disputes over their respective titles, a neutral mediator has crafted a proposal to rename the two major abortion articles (], and ]) to '''''completely''''' new names. The idea, which is located ''']''', is currently open for opinions. As you have been a contributor in the past to at least one of the articles, your thoughts on the matter would be appreciated. | |||
| The hope is that, if a consensus can be reached on the article titles, the energy that has been spent debating the titles of the articles ] and ] can be better spent giving both articles some much needed improvement to their content. Please take some time to read the proposal and weigh in on the matter. '''Even if your opinion is simple ''indifference''''', that opinion would be valuable to have posted. | |||
| To avoid concerns that this notice might violate ], this posting is being made to '''every''' non-anon editor who has edited either page (or either page's respective talk page) since 1 July 2010, irrespective of possible previous participation at the mediation page. ] (]) 20:49, 4 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :Gee, I don't even remember that. ] (]) 00:00, 5 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::FYI: . ] (]) 01:52, 5 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :::Hey, thanks - sorry to put you through that, my memory came back once I came back to the discussion page. I can't believe people are still arguing over that. Nay, strike that, this is Misplaced Pages... ] (]) 05:08, 5 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Bernard Lewinsky == | |||
| {{hidden|Discussion moved to ]| | |||
| content={{la|Bernard Lewinsky}} | |||
| Hi - please do not add that coat rack of that controversy its undue coverage in that BLP please seek support in the talkpage or the BLP noticeboard thanks. ] (]) 02:07, 8 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :The guy was interviewed on CNN and many other national news outlets. How could it possibly be wrong to say what he said? It was a major issue to him; a major period in his life with doubtless many influences on his future. This "coatrack" stuff... Misplaced Pages keeps substituting these bizarre baby-talk terms for rational discussion. ] (]) 02:16, 8 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| He is not notable because of those issues - if he is, he's a one event ] - please cut out your attacks on me. If you apply undue weight to those issues in his life story then you defeat your own position. Although I do not support this BLP being kept I have edited it to the best position for it if it is to be kept. ] (]) 02:18, 8 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :BLP1E allows keeping a person when he has had a substantial role in a notable event. He didn't just testify - he went on CNN and told the story of his family's harassment. He didn't just demand an apology from Dick Wolf and NBC - he got ''answered'' even if only in the negative. That's worth keeping. BLP1E was an exception to the usual notability guidelines but it doesn't cover this. There's abundant verifiable sourcing. ] (]) 02:26, 8 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::If you assert he is a notable one event in relation to his daughters controversy and deserves his own article because of that I will have to disagree. The only reason he is notable for his own Biography at wikipedia is because of his cancer research - any other issue of note belongs at another title or in another article. ] (]) 02:32, 8 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'm not asserting he ''meets'' BLP1E, but that he ''isn't covered'' by it. BLP1E is a criterion that ''excludes'' people. Since it doesn't apply, the GNG applies, which he goes far beyond meeting. ] (]) 02:42, 8 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| Why was this discussion not started on the article talk page, Off2? As far as I can see this is totally a content issue, and if it's on the article talk than a wider group can have their say. - ] (]) 02:42, 8 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :The reason I discussed this here was because it was about me and User:WNT more than the article. ] (]) 02:57, 8 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Can I suggest you archive your talkpage - its 2000, 000 bytes, many users have limited download capability - if you need help to set up archiving, please just ask. ] (]) 02:44, 8 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Alright, I suppose it was time. {{done}} ] (]) 03:05, 8 July 2011 (UTC)}} | |||
| == Striking others comments == | |||
| Hi User:Wnt - please don't strike through my comments like that it can be misleading - archive them. thanks. ] (]) 02:53, 8 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| : I had to look up the code for the show hide box and I didn't want people adding more stuff there instead of at the article talk page where I moved that. ] (]) 03:00, 8 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::Well thanks for doing that - myself , its less important to me than finding some common ground for my and your editing positions without just assuming the position - sometimes you assert a stronger position to me than is warranted - often I comment and then I don't care what the community concludes - I support the position that the guidelines and policy are broken and need repair/strengthening so whatever the result is is irrelevant to me, I comment and let it go - I have long since stopped expecting the community to reflect a NPOV uninvolved result. Please understand - I comment but ultimately I do not care what the result is. It appears you have just taken an opposition position to anything to do with me - well - join the queue but ultimately I am not the issue at all. ] (]) 03:21, 8 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :::There are clearly two sides here, but I'm not taking an opposition position to ''you'' personally, just many of the ideas you're siding with. I just want people to be free to take what they find in reliable sources and dump it into articles - that's all. I don't want people telling us that something is too nasty to put in, I don't want people telling us that we're wrong for not finding enough nasty stuff to "balance" our overall contributions over the months - I just want us to be free to go out there, get the goods, and bring them home, trusting to the statistics of large numbers to catch whatever we miss. If you've looked through that 200k of stuff, you'll see that I'm pretty consistent about that point. ] (]) 04:52, 8 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Well, consistency... - is it a good thing? anyway, I look forward to meeting in the middle at some point in the future, best wishes till then. ] (]) 07:42, 8 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| '''Sean Hoare''' | |||
| Hi, yes it is ''great'' to agree occasionally. Regards. ] (]) 18:07, 20 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ==Hello == | |||
| Hey there is a dispute on the ] article talkpage about if Militant atheism as a subject is on violation of the ] article. Since you worked on the article I was hoping for your input on if and how the article is or is not a violation of the policy as it is outlined in the article. Thanks ] (]) 16:05, 12 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :Hello, User:Wnt. I noticed your helpful comments on the article above and would encourage you to continue to comment as your comments help been beneficial. I have just commented there. Thanks, ]<sup>]</sup> 07:08, 14 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Non-sequitur? == | |||
| Wnt, your at the santorum article talk interjecting what I believe to be a rather clear non-sequitur from another topic into the thread of an unrelated discussion in a different topic is strange and rather clearly disruptive to the flow of that discussion. Please consider refactoring that comment to the discussion which inspired it and where any reader can understand the context in which it was offered as a relevant response. | |||
| Your curious insertion is, IMHO, a rather odd misreading of the purpose of User:Zenswashbuckler's in that other topic. However, even if your apparent interpretation of that suggestion were accurate, please have the courtesy to at least place your non-sequitur as a comment unrelated to and not disruptive of an ongoing discussion. | |||
| I appreciate your consideration. ] (]) 12:02, 14 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :I thought I'd answered that well enough previously. It's hard to believe, but it looks like now there's only one other person left debating on this talk page ... and he thought it was relevant. ] (]) 15:21, 14 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::As Zenswashbuckler's subsequent response indicates (while not directly addressing a point I'll just not argue any further), your comments are nonetheless premature. If you want to house them in an undedicated topic/discussion where, in all liklihood, they will be lost to time and circumstance, be my guest. However, to deny editors the benefit of both your comments and advanced formatting offered in the context of a discussion ongoing elsewhere seems an odd choice to make as refactoring would be MY personal preference. But I guess that's what makes the world go 'round. ] (]) 16:08, 14 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == "santorum" consensus == | |||
| Wnt, I've instituted a process to, hopefully and credibly, NPOV resolve remnant ] issues. As a prior participant in that discussion, I would appreciate any consideration you might care to offer. Any credible resolution will require significant editor input and your observations would be appreciated. Thanks for your consideration. ] (]) 19:07, 26 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :Oh my Gawd that thing is still going on? It looks like fortunately there is already consensus there to avoid using "Misplaced Pages's voice" to say that the word is vulgar, and I still don't see much hope of getting people to restore all the deleted details and reactions... I don't see something obvious to do there right now. It's stalemated, which is better than some possible outcomes. ] (]) 19:18, 26 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Human DNA == | |||
| Love the USENET comment on ]! ] (]) 15:54, 28 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Formal mediation has been requested == | |||
| {{Ivmbox | |||
| | <!---MedComBot-Do-not-remove-this-line-Notified-Opposition to the legalisation of abortion--->The ] has received a request for formal mediation of the dispute relating to "Opposition to the legalisation of abortion". As an editor concerned in this dispute, you are invited to participate in the mediation. ] is a voluntary process which resolves a dispute over article content by facilitation, consensus-building, and compromise among the involved editors. After reviewing the ], the ], and the ], '''please indicate in the "party agreement" section whether you agree to participate.''' Because requests must be responded to by the Mediation Committee within seven days, please respond to the request by {{#time: F j|{{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} {{CURRENTDAY}}{{#if:|, {{{3}}}}} +7 day}}{{#if:|, {{#switch:{{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} {{CURRENTDAY}}, {{{3}}}|December {{#expr: 32 - 7}}, {{{3}}}={{#expr: + 1}}|}}}}, 2011. | |||
| Discussion relating to the mediation request is welcome at the case talk page. Thank you.<br> | |||
| <small>Message delivered by ] (]) on ] of the Mediation Committee. 01:51, 3 August 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
| }} | |||
| == Request for mediation rejected == | |||
| {{Ivmbox | |||
| | The ] concerning Opposition to the legalisation of abortion, to which you were listed as a party, has been ]. To read an explanation by the Mediation Committee for the rejection of this request, see the ], which will be deleted by an administrator after a reasonable time. Please direct questions relating to this request to the ] of the Committee, or to the ]. For more information on forms of dispute resolution, other than formal mediation, that are available, see ]. | |||
| For the Mediation Committee, ]<small> <nowiki>]<nowiki>]</nowiki></small> 21:33, 10 August 2011 (UTC)<br> | |||
| <small>(Delivered by ], ] the Mediation Committee.)</small> | |||
| }} | |||
| :Wow. I made a couple of comments there, but I never imagined it would end up in arbitration. The funny part is that I prefer either side's partisan solution ("pro-life, anti-abortion") to the compromise "opposition to the legalization of abortion". ] (]) 02:07, 11 August 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::hilarious, next it will be the ""; ]: maybe we need an historical article about the name controversy. <font face="Vivaldi">]</font>:] 15:04, 11 August 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Would appreciate your continued attention == | |||
| Wnt, | |||
| I would very much appreciate your continued attention to the conversation you initiated here - ]. I posed a couple of questions to you after you dismissed what I and Jayen have claimed as merit-less. I am not sure if you were aware that I continued the discussion. I would very much like to hear that answers to those questions. If you do come back to the conversation please bare in mind that Jayen has made some recent changes to the entry which may have fixed some of the problems that, IMO, Cirt created. So please refer to the version of the entry prior to those fixes. Cheers.] (]) 22:07, 15 August 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == less misleading title on Meta == | |||
| hi Wnt, you might be interested in adding reasons to either support or oppose ] over at Meta. My opinion is that the present name is misleading. ] (]) 10:32, 17 August 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == "Referendum" == | |||
| {{ umbox | |||
| | image = Nuvola apps edu languages.svg | |||
| | imagelink = meta:Talk:Image_filter_referendum/en#Details_about_the_flagging_system_are_needed | |||
| | text = '''Hello, Wnt. You have new messages at ].'''<br /><span class="plainlinks" style="font-size: 88%; font-weight: normal;"> You can at any time by removing the {{tl|Talkback}} or {{tl|Tb}} template.</span>}} --] ] 06:31, 18 August 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == WP:BLAME for WikiBlame tool to search revisions == | |||
| ''19-Aug-2011:'' I had hoped someone would remind you, sooner, the tool is described at ] (has website link), and many people just say "blame tool" but if you think of another, more intuitive name, then we can quickly create a #REDIRECT for a WP:Bettername. As you imagined, this 2009 German tool, indeed, can search for either action, as hunting the added or removed text, to pinpoint which revision was edited that way, in any language Misplaced Pages (en/de/fr/es, etc.). For faster search, the tool can be directed to skip "150" or so recent revisions when the suspected change happened a long while ago. Hence, computer people are as clever as you had hoped. I am sorry for the delay, in answering this question of yours from 14:54, 17 August 2011, in ], but I imagined more people would respond to you. Although ~410 people, per day, read Jimbo's talk, I guess they aren't focused on answering all questions. For quick answers, please know Village Pump ] currently answers many such questions within a few hours, rather than days. I hope this restores your ] faith in wiki-mankind! -] (]) 04:40, 19 August 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :Neat - I had no idea this existed! I'd mentioned it before, having no idea at any time it did.Though there is still useful work for devs to do to make it so that it's actually an option you have handy right on the History page. ] (]) 06:28, 19 August 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :P.S. I'm inclined to take watchlist statistics with a grain of salt. I mean, I must have had hundreds of pages on a watchlist I was never reading, until eventually I noticed it and purged it. I do everything based on a combination of User Contributions (which ''will'' take 5000 as an argument if you type it in the URL ;)) and memory. ] (]) 06:31, 19 August 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Canvassing == | |||
| I'd like to hear what you think at ]. ] (]) 21:15, 19 August 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| I don't want to come of mean, but it seems to me that the first thing on your page is advertisement, and I would advise you to remove it. Please inform me if I am mistaken. --] 23:41, 20 August 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :There are ''many'' ] which do this. Check ] for things like ], ], etc. That sports userbox list is an official Misplaced Pages page and has been the subject of arguments for many years, so it is a pretty reliable precedent. And I'm recommending something that you can use to maintain your local copy of controversial types of YouTube videos that tend to disappear (e.g. primary footage of a Koran burning) so that you can analyze the source material when you would otherwise be unable, which I think deserves consideration above and beyond personal preference. ] (]) 23:52, 20 August 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::lol, i see the editing of user space continues, and blp deletion is less important: fads. another excuse to delete with drama. maybe we can get an filter, so we don't have to look at offensive user boxes if we don't want to. implement a dysfunctional "solution" and move on to the next crisis. don't you know youtube is full of copyright vios, you can't link to that. <font face="Vivaldi">]</font>:] 00:34, 21 August 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :::]: ''"There is no blanket ban on linking to YouTube or other user-submitted video sites"''. Clearly YouTube videos are ''often'' not usable as sources, but occasionally one is linked from a reliable source, or otherwise gains some relevance as a primary source. ] (]) 00:39, 21 August 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::::i agree, but the nuance is lost on the patrolers. i see primary sources are deprecated. see ] hey, let's automate reversion. <font face="Vivaldi">]</font>:] 01:15, 21 August 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Warning re: Arbitration == | |||
| is inappropriate at Arbitration. Please moderate your conduct when participating in cases or you may be asked to leave. ] <sup>(]/]/])</sup> 19:04, 23 August 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :Sorry, seemed like innocent fun. Do you really take that charge against Prioryman ''seriously''? In any case, your point is taken, and I understand you have to draw the line somewhere. ] (]) 19:34, 23 August 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Courtesy notice == | |||
| You are mentioned in a discussion here: ] (]) 01:39, 31 August 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Work = force * distance == | |||
| Hi Wnt! I responded to a pondering you added to ], but it has archived and will soon roll off RD/S, so I thought I'd let you know directly. Cheers. -- ] (]) 13:11, 7 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Re: flooding image == | |||
| Oops, I am very, very sorry about that!! :( If you wouldn't mind, could you indicate ? For example, whether you release the image into the public domain. --♫ ] (<small>]</small>) 17:54, 9 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :Yea, that's the only reason I thought it wasn't yours, but I should've assumed good faith. :) --♫ ] (<small>]</small>) 18:31, 9 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Image filter next steps and the WMF's new ToS == | |||
| Can you please view ]. The page appears to be for additions and revisions. I know that you came up with your own creative ideas and alternatives to filter, and it would be nice to see them mentioned. Since you're heavily involved with BLP cases, you may be interested in viewing ], which was . There are already discussions on the talk page. --] (]) 18:03, 9 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :Thanks for sharing your ideas and opinions. --] (]) 19:43, 9 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == The silence is deafening == | |||
| <s>I see that you have not responded to my in response to your ill informed comments regarding my blocking of Rich Farmbrough. Perhaps you could enlighten me whether this is due to neglect - why bother checking up on replies, when you did not care to check on the facts before posting in the first place? - or embarrassment. Unless you are able (and prepared) to respond with diffs exampling the alleged display of temper, or indeed any recent prior interaction with the blocked editor, in response to my request I shall have to assume that you are not someone whose commentary on matters should be give any heed. Good day</s>. ] (]) 13:09, 13 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :I've been occupied a bit by aftereffects of Hurricane Lee, but I think you've misinterpreted what I said. That comment was directly responding and opposing a proposal by Roux calling for a one year block. I believe I said that fixed short-term blocks for such minor offenses were the preferable solution. You made a one week block, which falls into that category. I don't think I criticized you. ] (]) 16:38, 13 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{talkquote|...in response to my request I shall have to assume that you are not someone whose commentary on matters should be give any heed. Good day.}} hilarious, yet another uncivil admin, with grammar problems. <font face="Vivaldi">]</font>:] 17:30, 13 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :::It was a misunderstanding. Let's not even start with the uncivility stuff. And likely the missing "n" traces back to keyboard dust. I just submitted my keyboard to an electric leaf blower - a truly beastly contraption, but good for improving "grammar". ] (]) 18:02, 13 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::::you are way more civil than i. it's one thing to have sharp differences at ANI, another to continue insults at user talk. (silence being a good way to let things cool off) but then the regretted save is quicker than the preview. i'm thinking i'll just ignore talk for a while, it dosn't have much utility. <font face="Vivaldi">]</font>:] 19:26, 13 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You may of course provide me with examples of further incivility by myself, to substantiate your claim that I am habitually impolite... I find the irony amusing that in pursuing an allegation of neglect in reviewing a matter (and in noting Wnt's response, I will review the discussion afresh) I receive a response by a third party exampling the lack of same. If my review of the discussion leads me to reconsider Wnt's comments, in light of his words here, then I shall apologise and strike my comments - as I have done so before, when I have made mistakes. As for my making spelling mistakes, you may note from my contrib history that I have historically inflated my edit count by those little corrections; providing you are familiar with reviewing edit histories and the like, per AGF. Or stay away from Talk, as you please. ] (]) 19:54, 13 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :::@Wnt; I shall review the discussion again, in light of your comments. ] (]) 19:54, 13 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::::In light of the comments there and here I have struck my original observation, and apologised for them and the manner in which I made them. To ensure there is no further ''misunderstandings'' I am striking my initial post here, and would again tender my regret for what some might consider an inappropriate tone. ] (]) 20:10, 13 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Arbitration == | |||
| You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at ] and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use— | |||
| * ]; | |||
| * ]. | |||
| Thanks,<!-- Template:Arbcom notice -->] (]) 22:41, 13 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :Hmmm, I was about to expand my comment but the request was already declined and removed. For the lack of anywhere else to put it: "... On a moment's further investigation it's clear that ''two'' similar cases were recently declined: and . Some arbitrators suggested that the first of these cases might be reexamined in a month or so. I think that case has a reasonable looking list of parties and was started by the editor at the center of it all, so I think that at such time as any case involving LDGP is accepted, that should be the one resumed. ] (]) 00:25, 14 September 2011 (UTC)" | |||
| == A question about a comment == | |||
| Back a month or two ago, I read a comment of yours (I believe it was in RFC on somebody's user behavior, but I've slept since then). It went something like: "In regards to BLP policy, I'm at one end of the spectrum, and ] is on the other." Is my memory really faulty? If somewhat accurately recalled, what did the comment refer to? ] (]) 03:18, 24 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :Some WP editors support expansion of BLP policy, and of enforcement of BLP policy, e.g. with ]. I believe WP should return to the policies of its most prolific epoch, in 2007, where BLP was simply a style guideline, and not used to justify the removal of well-sourced information. But this is something of a deception, because in this case (and most others) the debate is really between inclusionists and deletionists - thus, there was a case with whether ] should include comments by people Breivik quoted dissociating themselves from his policies, where I was saying BLP demands we give people "their fair say", while Off2riorob had deleted the section. (Overall I'm very disappointed by how much has been removed from that article, for many different reasons) ] (]) 03:26, 24 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::That's interesting. Without stepping between two editors I admire, I've always viewed the BLP issue as a threshold thing: IMHO, no Misplaced Pages article should be unsourced, ever. BLP is just the most dangerous arena, since lives can be altered depending on what is maintained. I figured BLP was the first pass, and that over the next say, ten years, we'd be instituting sourcing requirements in all aspects of the pedia. I figured current events and corporations would be next. I didn't see the inclusionists and deletionists issue at all. Thanks for the speedy and considered reply. ] (]) 03:38, 24 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :::The problem is that those pressing for certain ideas of BLP aren't satisfied that a fact is sourced, or even well sourced to a renowned news source. To give an old example, there was a case with ] where the BLP faction didn't want people mentioning that some Canadian sportscasters had mocked his sexuality, even though he had filed a complaint with the Canadian civil rights commission; nor did they want the LGBT Wikiproject marking the article of interest to it. The only thing that finally made them give way was when Weir ''chose'' to publicize his sexual orientation. My opinion is that Misplaced Pages should accurately summarize the news sources as they publish, without holding things back based on Misplaced Pages-specific notions of "ethics". Our ethics should be to give the reader the same information he would have if he had ready access to the full range of copyrighted sources. ] (]) 03:46, 24 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Wikipedian ethics. Hah! Seems like a running set of lectures at every Wikimania. The more recent set of discussions on the sexual identity subject I have been following. I'm also a bit concerned about paying overmuch attention to what a BLP subject has to say about their Misplaced Pages articles as it regards sourcing and notability. It's not the pedia's job to make such pages acceptable to the subject, IMHO, though a strong concern for verifiability is paramount. In the past, I think we've focused overmuch on notability and not enough on verifiability. Moving into the next decade, strong sourcing is crucial if our work is to be accepted as more than a starting point for readers. ] (]) 04:04, 24 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == News and progress from RfA reform 2011 == | |||
| {{collapsetop|bg=#33FFCC|RfA reform: ...and what you can do now.}} | |||
| <small>(You are receiving this message because you are either a task force member, or you have contributed to recent discussions on any of ].)</small> | |||
| '''The number of nominations''' continues to nosedive seriously, according to ]. We know why this is, and if the trend continues our reserve of active admins will soon be underwater. Misplaced Pages now needs suitable editors to come forward. This can only be achieved either through ] to the current system, a ], or by ]. | |||
| '''A lot of work''' is constantly being done behind the scenes by the coordinators and task force members, such as monitoring the talk pages, discussing new ideas, organising the project pages, researching statistics and keeping them up to date. You'll also see for example that we have recently made tables to compare how other Wikipedias choose their sysops, and some tools have been developed to more closely examine !voters' habits. | |||
| '''The purpose of ]''' is to focus attention on ''specific'' issues of our admin selection process and to develop RfC proposals for solutions to improve them. For this, we have organised the project into ] each with their own discussion pages. It is important to understand that all Misplaced Pages policy changes take a long time to implement whether or not the discussions appear to be active - getting the proposals right ''before'' offering them for discussion by the broader community is crucial to the success of any RfC. Consider keeping the pages and their talk pages on your ]; ''do'' check out older threads before starting a new one on topics that have been discussed already, and if you start a new thread, ''please'' revisit it regularly to follow up on new comments. | |||
| '''The object of ]''' is ''not'' to make it either easier or harder to become an admin - those criteria are set by those who !vote at each RfA. By providing a unique venue for developing ideas for change independent of the general discussion at ], the project has two clearly defined goals: | |||
| #Improving the environment that surrounds RfA in order to encourage mature, experienced editors of the right calibre to come forward, pass the interview, and dedicate some of their time to admin tasks. | |||
| #Discouraging, in the nicest way possible of course, those whose RfA will be obvious NOTNOW or SNOW, and to guide them towards the advice pages. | |||
| The fastest way is through improvement to the current system. Workspace is however also available within the project pages to suggest and discuss ideas that are ]. Users are invited to make use of these pages where they will offer maximum exposure to the broader community, rather than individual projects in ]. | |||
| ] - let's not clutter the project with perennial chat. RFA2011 ''is now ready'' to propose some of the elements of reform, and all the task force needs to do now is to pre-draft those proposals in the project's workspace, agree on the wording, and then offer them for central discussion where the ''entire'' Misplaced Pages community will be more than welcome to express their opinions in order to build consensus. | |||
| '''New tool''' Check your RfA !voting history! Since the editors' RfA !vote counter at X!-Tools has been down for a long while, we now have a new to replace it. A significant improvement on the former tool, it provides a a complete breakdown of an editor's RfA votes, together with an analysis of the participant's voting pattern. | |||
| '''Are you ready to help?''' Although the main engine of RFA2011 is its task force, ''constructive'' comments from any editors are always welcome on the project's various talk pages. The main reasons why ] was never successful in getting anything done are that threads on different aspects of RfA are all mixed together, and are then archived where nobody remembers them and where they are hard to find - the same is true of ad hoc threads on ]. | |||
| {{collapsebottom}} | |||
| <small>Delivered by ] on behalf of ] at 16:07, 25 September 2011 (UTC).</small> | |||
| <!-- Delivery requested by ] and approved by ]. --> | |||
| == Anthony Bologna == | |||
| I tried to add to the article from the sources as much as possible the things I though were appropriate. Some things, such as the 2004 incident, I deemed inappropriate (see my reasoning on the talk page). You probably disagree, which is fine, and want to add back in, so feel free until there is some sort of consensus. I'm not going to edit the article for a while and let you and other editors shape it. Cheers! ] (]) 23:45, 3 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :Regarding the 2004 incident you may want to weigh in the discussion at http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Anthony_Bologna#AfD_.2B_2004_Republican_National_Convention_lawsuits ] (]) 18:59, 7 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ==DYK for 2011 United States listeriosis outbreak from cantaloupes== | |||
| {{tmbox | |||
| |style = notice | |||
| |small = | |||
| |image = ] | |||
| |text = On ], ''']''' was updated with a fact from the article ''''']''''', which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ''... that ''']''' associated with ]s is now one of the three worst ] in the past 40 years, as measured in number of deaths?'' {{#if: |The nomination discussion and review may be seen at ].|{{#ifexist:Template:Did you know nominations/2011 United States listeriosis outbreak from cantaloupes|The nomination discussion and review may be seen at ].|{{#ifexist:Template talk:Did you know/2011 United States listeriosis outbreak from cantaloupes|The nomination discussion and review may be seen at ].}} }} }}You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page <small>(], )</small> and add it to ] if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the ]. | |||
| }} ] (]) 00:03, 12 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ==Protect IP Act== | |||
| Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at ] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is "]". Thank you.<!--Template:DRN-notice--> --] | ] 07:30, 2 November 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Verified Interview with Biographic Subjects (VIBS) == | |||
| I like how you think outside the box and come up with creative ideas. In my opinion, you've got the start of something workable, but I think you're going about it the wrong way. To me at least, the place to start would be with Wikinews. We need to develop a credible standard that Wiki-journalists can meet, either through accreditation with professional societies or with an OTRS-like system you describe in your proposal. Then, we could "dispatch" authorized news personnel to conduct the interviews or to track down information. I deal with this problem all the time. For example, today on ], one of her alleged caregivers in RL contradicted a rumor published in a newspaper. They also added information that would be great for the biography, but cannot be verified in any RS. In such a case, we should have a system where a Wikinews reporter could set up an interview with the person, where their identity could be verified in some way, and a transcript of the interview could be made available. In the age of social media and Skype, it should even be possible to produced accompanying video and audio archives of the interview. There's a lot of opportunity here, and this method could give Misplaced Pages the status of a RS that is so sorely lacks. ] (]) 01:31, 11 November 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :To be honest, I wasn't really feeling ambitious enough to try to make VIBS happen; it's just I think that's the right way whereas changing WP:V is the wrong way. To me VIBS seems closely allied with OTRS in the sense that (a) you need to have a ''trusted'' volunteer verify the identity of the person and that they were actually interviewed (b) possibly using documents that are not public. It seems very similar to the main OTRS activities of trying to verify that the author of a document actually released it under a free license and also of talking to dissatisfied biographic subjects who challenge the information about them. ] (]) 03:55, 11 November 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ==Orphaned non-free image File:Anangelic script in a Rolling Stones audience?.gif== | |||
| <span style="font-size:32px; line-height:1em">''']'''</span> Thanks for uploading ''']'''. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Misplaced Pages under a ]. However, the image is currently ], meaning that it is not used in any articles on Misplaced Pages. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. ] if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Misplaced Pages (see ]). | |||
| '''PLEASE NOTE:''' | |||
| * I am a ], and will therefore not be able to answer your questions. If you have a question, place a {{tlp|helpme}} template, along with your question, beneath this message. | |||
| * I will remove the request for deletion if the file is used in an article once again. | |||
| * If you receive this notice ''after'' the image is deleted, and you want to restore the image, click to file an un-delete request. | |||
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| Thank you. <!-- Template:Di-orphaned fair use-notice --> ] (]) 07:14, 9 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Agreements / Disagreements == | |||
| I've looked over our past interactions based on our agreement at User_talk:Jimbo, and discovered that while we disagree on editorial points as encyclopaedia editors, many of our non-editorial interests and perhaps even opinions are closely aligned. How's that for how economics changes the relationships between ideals and beliefs :) ] (]) 07:58, 15 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == User:Wnt/Copyright Alliance == | |||
| I have userfied the Copyright Alliance page to ] where you can edit it and add sources at your leisure. ] (]) 05:05, 17 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ==Disambiguation link notification== | |||
| Hi. In ], you recently added a link to the disambiguation page ] (] | ]). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. <small>Read the ]{{*}} Join us at the ].</small> | |||
| It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these ]. Thanks, ] (]) 11:50, 17 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ==Online Protection and Enforcement of Digital Trade Act== | |||
| I have made a comment on your proposed DYK hook for the article ] . You may like to respond. ] (]) 20:46, 20 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :But fortunately, it looks like I didn't have to. ;) ] (]) 04:59, 21 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ==DYK for Online Protection and Enforcement of Digital Trade Act== | |||
| {{tmbox | |||
| |style = notice | |||
| |small = | |||
| |image = ] | |||
| |text = On ], ''']''' was updated with a fact from the article ''''']''''', which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ''... that the ''']''' is a proposed alternative to ] that would not require American ]s to block access to suspect Web sites?'' {{#if: |The nomination discussion and review may be seen at ].|{{#ifexist:Template:Did you know nominations/Online Protection and Enforcement of Digital Trade Act|The nomination discussion and review may be seen at ].|{{#ifexist:Template talk:Did you know/Online Protection and Enforcement of Digital Trade Act|The nomination discussion and review may be seen at ].}} }} }}You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page <small>(], )</small> and add it to ] if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the ]. | |||
| }} ] (] '''·''' ]) 16:03, 21 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Request for your perspective on SOPA == | |||
| Hi Wnt, there's currently an ongoing discussion about splitting the ] page at ]. You've familiarized yourself with the entry before, and your insight and perspective on the matter would be appreciated. Hope to see you there, ''']''' <small>(])</small> 23:57, 22 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ==Disambiguation link notification== | |||
| Hi. When you recently edited ], you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page ] (] | ]). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. <small>Read the ]{{*}} Join us at the ].</small> | |||
| It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these ]. Thanks, ] (]) 11:54, 5 January 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Ambiguity due to ignorance - just what the source says. ] (]) 14:27, 5 January 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == AN/I == | |||
| There is a report at ], in which you might have an interest. -- ] (]) 17:48, 8 January 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't know enough about the case - besides, it looks closed already. I just thought a good point was made that the pattern of IPs (whether there are some unique to one username or the other) should indeed be disclosed in such investigations. ] (]) 22:44, 8 January 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == ] Re-Organisation== | |||
| Keep up the good work!] (]) 22:10, 9 January 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Barnstar == | |||
| {| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;" | |||
| |rowspan="2" valign="middle" | ] | |||
| |rowspan="2" | | |||
| |style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | Your Opinion is More Important than You Think Barnstar''' | |||
| |- | |||
| |style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | To Wnt, don't be disheartened. ] <font color="#3CB371">¤</font> <small></font>]]</small> 17:51, 16 January 2012 (UTC) | |||
| |} | |||
| I have ] and invited him to comment. ] <font color="#3CB371">¤</font> <small></font>]]</small> 17:52, 16 January 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == I apologize! == | |||
| I cannot explain my rash, rude and dismissive behavior regarding ]; I truly am sorry, and . Thx! :) '''] (Robert)''' – ''''']''''' 06:44, 17 January 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Ah well, I was also a bit frustrated from various small WikiBattles of late; thanks for the apology. ] (]) 08:36, 22 January 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==Disambiguation link notification== | |||
| Hi. When you recently edited ], you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page ] (] | ]). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. <small>Read the ]{{*}} Join us at the ].</small> | |||
| It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these ]. Thanks, ] (]) 10:58, 24 January 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Hmmm, this bot could be reprogrammed to automatically distinguish mercury from Mercury and fix the link itself... though it's probably more trouble than it's worth. ] (]) 21:07, 24 January 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Misunderstanding == | |||
| http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/F%C3%A6&diff=475795227&oldid=475785878 – I just wanted to make sure that you see my comment as soon as possible. Your claims against Delicious carbuncle are severe, and I feel that it's best in resolve the misunderstanding as soon as possible. --] (]) 18:14, 8 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :I think I read that in a reasonable way - even if it were interpreted the way you say, it would still be an expression of ''some'' sort of bias. Note that the 'facts' you're going by are phantoms - I found the original image from which all the WR sniping originates and it is just something silly-looking, nothing more, which gives no ''hint'' of the various things the crowd there have taken from it, which exist solely in their imaginations. But ] applies here, and I may well just be contributing to the troubles by going for the bait. Telling a Wikipedian not to cite his sources... they deserve to get ]ed for that. ] (]) 18:42, 8 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/F%C3%A6&diff=475805705&oldid=475804940 – Would you be alright with this. I disapprove of censorship, but they shouldn't censor only the rebuttal alone. Currently, people viewing the page history are only going to be able to see your argument without being able to see a sufficient counter-argument, and that's going to affect the viewers. They shouldn't have used the suppression tool in the first place. --] (]) 19:08, 8 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::I think that revdelling is extreme, as the thing is after all only a link and partial quote to stuff that, unfortunately, comes up high on this person's list of Google search results. The Examiner even has an article about it. But I have to acknowledge that making it was contrary to the ] policy, and given the objection and the fact that I simply don't ''want'' to help these people drum someone out of Misplaced Pages I won't oppose it. ] (]) 20:04, 8 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Muhammad images == | |||
| Hi. This case is closed, so please do not post anything on the case pages. If you want to post your comments on the case, please post them ]. Thanks, ] (]) 16:17, 9 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == RevDel RfC == | |||
| Hi, Wnt. This is unrelated to the Fæ discussion; indeed, I think I've said all I have to say on that subject. <p>Because you participated in last spring’s discussions on ] about possibly removing RD5, one of the RevDel criteria, you might like to weigh in on ]. It basically puts forth a proposal from last May, which was supposed to become a live RfC around that time but never did. ] (]) 16:55, 10 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==Ad hominem and the Fae RfC== | |||
| Wnt, in my opinion, your comments accusing others of harassment for engaging in dispute resolution ("I'm reasonably persuaded that harassment is the beginning of the motive here." and "The exact same Inquisition will be in session tomorrow, with someone else in its sights.") I have listed in relation to the Fae RfC constitute an '']'' attack on the drafters of the RfC. Since ''ad hominem'' arguments attack the character of the person (in an attempt to damage the credibility of their message), I believe such debate tactics violate ]. Also, an ''ad hominem'' argument is a ], and thus provides little help in addressing the validity of the issues raised in the . Please refrain from ''ad hominem'' arguments in the future. Thank you. ] (]) 11:10, 11 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :I have raised the issue of this "warning", which Cla68 is spamming to multiple editors, at ]. Please feel free to comment on this issue on that page. ] (]) 11:13, 11 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::''Ad hominem'' attacks are indeed a fallacy when used to disprove a concrete allegation; however, they may be fairly used to determine when a process becomes abusive or outside of policy. Specifically, as I've answered before, ] is in its entirety an ''ad hominem'' argument; nonetheless it is the applicable policy where the entrance of editors from ] threads is concerned. | |||
| ::As you know, the issue of harassment is relevant to Fae because there is dispute whether he "vanished" to avoid potential sanction or to avoid harassment; I believe the latter. As you know, I documented this harassment on WR, but added to Fae's distress by doing so and fairly much violated ] - which is a worse breach of policy than anything I've seen Fae credibly accused of in his entire RfC. There comes a point when you're dealing with a group of people associated with an external site who accuse a respected director and admin of posting pictures of himself having sex '''''(false)''''', posting a naked photo of a little boy '''''(false)''''', misrepresenting sources ''(balderdash)'', evading "voluntary" RfC sanctions ''(implausible)'' ... eventually you have to respect yourself and apply the ''ad hominem'' standard that these people are simply not arguing in good faith. ] (]) 14:43, 11 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Please stop voting on BLP issues == | |||
| Hi - due to your very vocal rejection to what is one of the primary policies on en wikipedia in regards to living people , please consider ceasing to vote in regard to such discussions. ] 20:23, 13 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==Santorum vs santorum== | |||
| Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at ] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is "]". Thank you.<!--Template:DRN-notice--> --] (]) 08:01, 14 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Looks like that resolved itself pretty quickly! ] (]) 16:39, 14 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Mention == | |||
| I mentioned you - ] - <font color="purple">]</font><font color="orange">really</font><font color="red">]</font> 04:18, 17 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == General points on editing == | |||
| The point you raised is not specific to the unblock request, but a more general question. I agree that standards on what constitutes plagiarism and/or close paraphrasing varies a lot, and that this causes problems, but that unblock request is not the right place to discuss it. You also raise a good point about how making single edits using a single source is different to writing based on pulling together what is contained in several different sources. I suggest you raise some of these points at a location such as ] or ]. You might get some answers there. ] (]) 21:46, 18 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == '''WHACK!''' == | |||
| For opening yet ''another'' thread prolonging the ridiculous Mbz1 saga and bringing it back up when it was finally starting to calm down, I hereby award you this rare ''triple trout with bracketing minnows''': | |||
| <nowiki>{{minnow}}{{trout}}{{trout}}{{trout}}{{minnow}}</nowiki> | |||
| The community here can decide to ban a user for any behavior it sees as disruptive. That's how consensus based decision making works, as I'm sure you are already aware. The ban had strong support, and Mbz is now acting purely as a troll in their continuing needling over at Meta about this, and you've just added fuel to that fire by opening this new discussion, so lets add '''Don't feed the trolls''' to that as well. ]. ] (]) 22:54, 23 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :This isn't about the user; it's about the policy. I think our policy ''should'' keep the projects separate, but by now it doesn't sound like this suggestion was eagerly received. But if we can't keep our wandering hands off Meta, how can we expect them to avoid getting into discussions about what happens here? Especially when that's a lot closer to Meta's purpose than to Misplaced Pages's. | |||
| :My feeling about "feeding the trolls" is that a) Mbz1 is really, really ''bad'' at arguing his case, turning everything into a sorry history of the whole long dispute from a strong POV (which is an amazingly common and universally unproductive response in many forums about individuals' political and legal matters) and b) a block or ban is worthless if it's not done for the ''right'' reason. People here seem to think that the point of blocking someone is to keep them from editing; that anything allowing him to edit or make his case is bad. But I think if you're going to have them, the more important point of blocks should be to ''instruct'' where the line is drawn, using the power of the block only as a way of getting extra attention. And c) The idea that we can make Mbz1 shut up if we want to is a phantasm. Have you searched "Gwen Gale" recently? I just did and it's an eye-opener. She (and her real name) is plastered all over ED, blogspot, all kinds of places. If Mbz1 is responsible for all that then I see why he wouldn't have a prayer of being unblocked - but ''that's not the point''. The point is, if we had better policies, blocked him for stuff which is clearly unreasonable and not blocked him for stuff that wasn't so unreasonable, we might not have antagonized him, might have talked him into using established processes only, something. ] (]) 23:12, 23 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::Just BTW ... you ''do'' realize Mbz1 is a she? It's not a hugely well-kept secret. ] (]) 02:12, 28 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::Sorry - it isn't that important to me and sometimes I forget which is which. Silly pronouns. ] (]) 15:24, 28 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Charlie wilkes == | |||
| I don't really follow what goes on at ArbCom too closely (it's not really part of my job, which I consider to be creating quality content and bringing existing content up in quality), but I do see a much greater involvement on Will Beback's part than mine (I prefer to review unblocks '']''). | |||
| That unblock denial was ten months ago; if he'd like to get unblocked based on the outcome of the TimidGuy case I'd prefer that he post a new request specifically citing it, and that another admin who has had nothing to do with the case pass on it. ] (]) 19:06, 27 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| : I doubt he's paying attention to the site any more - I just didn't think his block was right, and think it should be ended for the sake of ''our'' reputation. ] (]) 19:37, 27 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :: If you feel that we should make such a symbolic unblock, I think the best place to discuss that is an AN thread. As perhaps an outgrowth of, as I put it, administering from the front (i.e., doing a lot of my admin work at AIV, UAA and ]), I feel the blocked users are the only ones who should initiate unblock requests. But, if consensus differs for a particular user, then we do that. ] (]) 02:11, 28 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::: On consideration, perhaps the RfC ArbCom has requested would be the best place. Any suggested wording can be put through the screen of which blocks - Charlie wilkes or Will Beback - it would uphold. ] (]) 15:21, 28 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Oh no you didn't == | |||
| Did you just ] Misplaced Pages? ] (]) 08:07, 28 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :If you recognize that, apparently I'm not ''quite'' as bad an artist as I think. ;) ] (]) 15:22, 28 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::I like it, but why did you use the yellow background? Is that supposed to be like a foil medal? ] (]) 00:51, 29 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::Well, it was supposed to be a barnstar, so some kind of star seemed in order. ] (]) 04:52, 29 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == But... == | |||
| ]. ] (]) 14:07, 28 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :If I had my way this would be one of Misplaced Pages's shortest articles... (of course, fixing history retroactively is not one of my strong points) ] (]) 15:19, 28 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::Limits on superpowers are a fact of adulthood, unfortunately. :D ] (]) 18:48, 29 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Glucojasinogen == | |||
| It just occurred to me after learning of the glucojasinogen incident, that there is no inherent inaccuracy in the term, any more than in the introduction of any other neologism which is introduced anywhere neologisms are introduced. Certainly nobody was put at risk (other than the journal authors who may have plagiarized and certainly did not fact check that part of their work.) But nobody was even potentially harmed except to the extent that time may have been wasted, were they? I'm not saying that excuses it or that we shouldn't always avoid (introducing) neologisms, but this seems much milder than subtle vandalism such as altering chembox numbers, for example. ] (]) 03:55, 5 March 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :It was amid a bunch of gobbledygook - for example, "intrapectine" is also a made up word, as far as I know. And the statements about the relation of the two? Probably invalid, though without defining them it's hard to ''prove'' that. ;) Now the term ''did'' have a use - it made a point that journals' carelessness about plagiarism is not as harmless as it might seem if you assume that the people copying will only commit the venial sin of failing to reword good sources they understand, rather than the more significant error of publishing text of which they have no comprehension at all. To me this differs from "normal" plagiarism ''more'' than "normal" plagiarism differs from proper scholarship. ] (]) 16:19, 5 March 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==Disambiguation link notification for March 13== | |||
| Hi. When you recently edited ], you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page ] (] | ]). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. <small>Read the ]{{*}} Join us at the ].</small> | |||
| It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these ]. Thanks, ] (]) 11:02, 13 March 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Yikes! To closely paraphrase Monty Python, "I don't knoooooooow..." (source didn't specify) ] (]) 14:08, 13 March 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| I think the Rfc is nearly finalized, but only a few editors have commented recently, not including you. Could you take a look & let us know what you think at ]. Thanks. ] (]) 14:51, 14 March 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Somehow I tend to blunder around with this particular Wikidebate; I've decided they're coming up with a decent list of questions without me. ] (]) 18:41, 14 March 2012 (UTC) (Even so, I poked my nose in in the end...<sup></sup> always have some struvite of wisdom to bestow, I guess) ] (]) 19:05, 14 March 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == SOPA economics == | |||
| Regarding your , you've unfortunately been misinformed about "which is of relatively low economic impact on their company" for Google. If you actually examine what was going on with SOPA, you will see a provision involving infringement "safe harbor" standards for sites, which could have a profound effect on the multibillion dollar litigation involving big media companies vs. YouTube. This is simply a fact. You should wonder why you don't know it. Also, note the "social conjugation" involved - "I get a huge donation because I am so wonderful. You get a huge donation for your corrupt influence buying". -- ] (]) 23:59, 15 March 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :I should apologize that I never did sort this out in my mind for sure, but I respect your opinion and I'll remember it in the future. But there is still no doubt in my mind that Misplaced Pages's ''non''-political effects by themselves are ''worth'' far more to $500,000 to Google and its founders. People type Google searches because they want results, and at least one time out of four Misplaced Pages is the best result I can find - even when I'm searching for things to add to Misplaced Pages! ] (]) 16:07, 22 March 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == A barnstar for you! == | |||
| {| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;" | |||
| |rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ] | |||
| |style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The Barnstar of Good Humor''' | |||
| |- | |||
| |style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | On a website where a lot of a-holes and douchebags run the show, I greatly appreciate your sense of humour and light heartedness! ♦ ] 14:49, 22 March 2012 (UTC) | |||
| |} | |||
| :As one of America's foremost philosophers, Happy Harry Hardon, once said, "" :) ] (]) 16:05, 22 March 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Tuareg == | |||
| Hi Wnt, | |||
| I don't know enough about the Tuareg to tell you if those edits are factual or not, but from my interactions with Ameno I do believe that he is a Tuareg individual, although I could always be mistaken, and of course it's always possible that he could be a Tuareg and *also* be pulling our legs. -] (]) 01:37, 26 March 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Admin material == | |||
| ] | |||
| If you EVER find yourself at ] please give me a shout. I will !vote yes for sure. I appreciate all you do for this crazy place. ] (]) 06:35, 29 March 2012 (UTC) | |||
| * If you do, I will have significant questions for how you fail to disengage with trolls and have effectively collaborated in speculating about my personal life as a result. Thanks --] (]) 08:16, 29 March 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :* Well, for one I'm flattered, and thanks, and for two - I would not find such questions easy, but in order to write people off as trolls rather than engaging with them, I need to see tangible evidence that the community clearly recognizes them as such. I haven't really considered an admin campaign: among other things, since I prefer stating my opinions over diplomacy, I doubt I'd come anywhere close to the very high threshold required. More to the point, I think that the ability to participate in such discussions with such welcome response is worth more than the actual admin tools, provided that those who are admins are willing to implement a consensus. But thanks! ] (]) 14:42, 29 March 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::*Disengaging from a troll falls somewhere on a continuum in time; nobody is expected to know immediately who is and who is not a troll. It helps, of course. ] (]) 15:59, 29 March 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::* Actually, that wasn't the problem. The problem was that the editor in question ''started'' a thread "Does WP:NPA no longer protect editors from serious unsubstantiated allegations?" at ] to argue that ''he'' was the victim of such because people complained; claimed that anyone disputing his position forced him to repost a bunch of ... stuff ... about Fae, including an admission that one of his most outrageous allegations was in fact never true, and even so none of the admins stepped in and said, hey wait a minute, if there's ever a time to worry about personal attacks and civility and unsubstantiated allegations, we should put an end to this sorry scene. I honestly thought at some point the admins would have had enough - but it never happened! I thought they would have had enough of that RfC/U long before then, for that matter. But I ''still'' see no evidence in these records that anyone ever ruled that there was anything but "no consensus" on the dispute, let alone a declaration that trolling was involved. And unless people decide someone ''is'' a troll, until it is clear he won't actually ''win'' a policy dispute, how can I just ignore him? ] (]) 18:41, 29 March 2012 (UTC) | |||
| Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at ] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is "]". Thank you.<!--Template:DRN-notice--> | |||
| == Trayvon Martin and marijuana == | |||
| Would you come back to the Trayvon Martin article talk page again to address the marijuana reference being included. There appears to be consensus, but one person in talking in bullying tones that if it is added again, it will be removed. There are references for the marijuana and suspension. Why can't it be included in order to keep the article balanced? ] (]) 01:51, 1 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==Dispute resolution survey== | |||
| {| style="background-color: #CCFFFF; border: 4px solid #3399cc; width:100%" cellpadding="5" | |||
| | ] | |||
| <big>'''Dispute Resolution – ''Survey Invite'''''</big> | |||
| ---- | |||
| Hello {{BASEPAGENAME}}. I am currently conducting a study on the dispute resolution processes on the English Misplaced Pages, in the hope that the results will help improve these processes in the future. Whether you have used dispute resolution a little or a lot, now we need to know about your experience. The survey takes around five minutes, and the information you provide will not be shared with third parties other than to assist in analyzing the results of the survey. No personally identifiable information will be released. | |||
| '''Please click to participate.'''<br> | |||
| Many thanks in advance for your comments and thoughts. | |||
| ---- | |||
| <small>You are receiving this invitation because you have had some activity in dispute resolution over the past year. For more information, please see the associated ]. <font face="Verdana">] ] <sup>]</sup></font> 11:40, 5 April 2012 (UTC)</small> | |||
| |} | |||
| Sorry, but despite my sporadic enjoyment of trying to figure out human behavior, I have a distaste for actual surveying of it in this way. I feel like standardized surveying and categorization reduces me to someone else's preconceptions... besides, Crowish started that one and shortly after I wandered in it fizzled rapidly, so there's not much to say. If someone wants plain feedback, rather than to evaluate me as a demographic, I'll say that the problem with "dispute resolution" is that there is no straightforward way for editors to say, "hey, I'm having a problem here and I want some people to weigh in". Sure, there's the helpme template which might get editors to wander in, but it has iffy results because people can't just skim over the list of conversations. There are specialized noticeboards for sourcing, BLP and so forth. There's "third opinion" and there's mediation and there's the admin noticeboard. But what there isn't is a "general practitioner" to guide the patient around between all these specialists. ] (]) 12:24, 5 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==Disambiguation link notification for April 6== | |||
| Hi. When you recently edited ], you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page ] (] | ]). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. <small>Read the ]{{*}} Join us at the ].</small> | |||
| It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these ]. Thanks, ] (]) 10:46, 6 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Quoting the author. I wouldn't trust myself to necessarily get make the right assumption... ] (]) 13:02, 6 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == The user page you created == | |||
| Hi, you may have noticed I deleted the user page you created. I have now filed an ] on the matter, however, and you are welcome to comment there if you have more to add. ''']''' <sup>'''] / ]</sup>''' 15:38, 10 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Looks like you have that going much more carefully than I was ever going to bother with myself. Obviously my ''ad hoc'' page was not as authoritative as one done through the full process. ] (]) 15:42, 10 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==Disambiguation link notification for April 13== | |||
| Hi. When you recently edited ], you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page ] (] | ]). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. <small>Read the ]{{*}} Join us at the ].</small> | |||
| It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these ]. Thanks, ] (]) 11:36, 13 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Another case where I cited a source that was not specific. I don't like to make assumptions to disambiguate. ] (]) 12:08, 13 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Deletion review for ] == | |||
| You might want to appraise yourself of ]. __] (]) 11:29, 14 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
| Hi. Wnt. I hope wasn't too abrupt. It was a cute idea, and I laughed, but do you agree it was overall probably sending the wrong signal? --] (]) 12:23, 20 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't see this as sending the wrong signal because the vandal has no control over whether his additions end up being copied into a scientific publication. Besides, that particular IP is ''probably'' long gone. ] (]) 14:53, 20 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::Right; I was more concerned about the effect on others, rather than the IP. It's not a big deal, though. Put it back if you like. --] (]) 00:04, 21 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Requesting some comment about your SOPA/PIPA comments == | |||
| Hi; I'm a graduate student writing a bit of journalism about Misplaced Pages's choice to blackout the website back in January. I found your comment on the Post-mortem page (about a "Captain Bravo" moment) very interesting -- was wondering if you'd like to share a few more thoughts on the subject? Let me know on my user talk page whenever you get a chance... ] (]) 14:03, 16 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :N.B. this refers to ] where I said that "My feeling after seeing the rapid collapse of the bill is that we've had something of a ] moment, finding our political impact to be ''much'' stronger than we imagined. Unfortunately, I think we're going to face fallout from that, because so many different groups are going to want to own that power..." But I didn't follow up on this prediction; I was sort of thinking someone might ... and maybe this is that person? ] (]) 18:04, 16 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Sorry, but in reference to that conversation I was talking about --- I am '''on strike''' over the fact that out of a , the only person sanctioned was ] over a harmless joke. With the possible exception of better documenting ] I'm out of here for at least the 48 hours she's blocked, probably longer. ] (]) 18:59, 16 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :(Per ] I've ended the "strike", as the block was clearly recognized as wrong by a wide margin. ] (]) 05:12, 19 April 2012 (UTC)) | |||
| == Niabot == | |||
| If you want to continue the discussion, please do it at ]; ANI is for issues requiring urgent admin intervention, which this clearly isn't. Thanks, ] (]) 18:16, 17 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :I suppose there are many things in life more useful than to play that game any further. ] (]) 05:13, 19 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Johnny Cash == | |||
| Hi, Wnt. I've edited the ] page again, removing lots of entries, and I shall explain why here. It may be worthwhile you reading ] for an overview of what disambiguation pages are for and how they should be structured. They are not for listing every article in a certain topic (that's why we have ]) and they are not for listing every article that features "Johnny Cash" in the title. They should only be used when the title of one article can be confused with another – realistically speaking, someone arriving at the ] article will be looking for the musician, but that article name may also be confused with the ]. Anything else is unambiguous – our ] largely remove the need for disambiguation pages by disambiguating in the article titles – therefore pages such as ] isn't confused with the Johnny Cash article. I hope you understand, and please don't revert changes back without first discussing. Cheers, ] (]) 19:18, 20 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :I left those entries because they could reasonably be confused, plus a link to the discography for the reader's convenience. It seems arbitrary to say that "Smokin' Johnny Cash" can't be confused, but "Johnnycash machine" can be; I just made a different call. In any case, this was the result of an ongoing conversation elsewhere, not personal interest, so I'll leave it to you people to continue arguing over it on your own. ] (]) 19:30, 20 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==Refactor, archive or just strike== | |||
| I come seeking advice. I know better than to refactor another editor's comments. I also know better than to get on the wrong side of editors that express wild and outlandish feelings that they have. I guess you could say that I have taken on the role as one of the Acting Neighborhood Watch Editors for the Trayvon article. Usually I just strike comments that are "out of the blue" or that eminate from IP's that are just makng a snide blog-like comment and are attacking or name-calling in nature. It (striking) is a protective response that I use to keep the working environment clean and collaborative. To me, striking sends a message...but, at the same time, it doesn't destroy the flow of the conversation. The more we discredit the undercurrent of attack and taking sides and name calling, the less chance there is that the article will begin that slippery slide into ]. I would benefit from your thoughts.```]<small>]</small> 18:17, 22 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Well, there's a huge amount of disagreement in the article already. I always see the conflict as inclusionist-versus deletionist - even though I know some people push for inclusion or deletion of details based on the viewpoint they favor, my desire is always to see as much information as possible covered. I think it is better to let people battle it out a bit in comments, then "hat" anything that gets too far out of hand, deleting nothing, than to force them to redirect their annoyance toward changes in the article itself. ] (]) 18:20, 22 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==== | |||
| {{You've got mail|sig=] ] 01:50, 1 May 2012 (UTC)}} | |||
| :That is a well written e-mail, and I largely agree - with the exception that so long as someone is able to drive away editors to force his way on Misplaced Pages, he cannot safely be ignored. ] (]) 02:33, 1 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == RE: Copybio == | |||
| Ok I've made changes to ] so that its no longer copied material. Please let me know if there is still stuff that needs changing because I don't want this article to get deleted. Thanks. ] (]) 23:21, 2 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :(Responded at ]) ] (]) 23:42, 2 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| Ok first of all is it just the section, Volume I that you have the issue with? Second of all, what that guy wrote is basically the "plot" of Volume I in chronological order. I can't change the facts. What is written down is what occurs in Volume I and if you read them both they are hardly the same thing at all. ] (]) 23:54, 2 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :It's not even a ] in the first place - it's just a self-published review. Ordinarily that's a big thing in itself, but it's not as important as the copyright issue. And while you can't change the facts you certainly could write them many different ways. I'm sorry, but that section is going to have to get chopped down harshly, and written from scratch, not from a cut-and-paste. And ''believe me'', if it goes to the noticeboard you'll get a harsher reception. A lot of admins would have blocked you right away. ] (]) 00:01, 3 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| Ok fair enough then. But I have seen the film so I really don't need a source for the plot section, as is the case with most other films on this wiki, they don't have sources for the actual plot itself. In any event, I'll start from scratch the Volume I part of the plot and sort it out.] (]) 00:25, 3 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| Alright I've just wrote the entire thing out from scratch again on word and will now be pasting it onto the wiki page. ] (]) 01:26, 3 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==Discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Hatnote#Trivial_hatnote_links== | |||
| ] You are invited to join the discussion at ]. {{#if:|{{{more}}}}} ] (]) 19:50, 3 May 2012 (UTC){{z48}} | |||
| : Hmmm, I'm not altogether sure my opinion about that is ''right'', so maybe I'll put it off. ;) ] (]) 19:58, 3 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::all opinions are welcome...--] (]) 19:59, 3 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Page Deletion == | |||
| Ok I'll get onto that. In the mean time would it be possible for you to delete this page of mine: Thank you.--] (]) 22:28, 4 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm not an admin. I haven't actually done this, but I understand you can request speedy deletion of a user page with <nowiki>{{db-self}}</nowiki> - see ]. You might give a rationale that you're "cleaning up copyright issues" or something. ] (]) 22:34, 4 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::Driveby/] – deleted as ]. ] (]) 10:15, 5 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Osborne == | |||
| Re your comment on the ] page -- you'll likely note a , removing all of that material again. YRC gets pissed off when I revert him, so I'm not going to do it again (at least for now), but I'm disturbed by it: he's reverting back to a version in December, thus reverting more than 4 months of editing by 17 different editors. ] (]) 21:11, 7 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Noting diff - in relation to my complaint and attempt at dispute resolution with the user at <font color="purple">]</font><font color="orange">really</font><font color="red">]</font> 21:13, 7 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::From history I'm expecting to oppose Youreallycan's position - problem is, makes the article 19k longer! And as an inclusionist, well, I'm not going to oppose that altogether without some really good reason. But that change did take out the "pasty tax", which as I said on the talk page, is the only thing I ever heard about this person. ;) I'm suspicious that some people on one or both sides are taking out stuff based on ideological motives, but I don't know enough about British politics to unravel it - I just want the final article to include ''everyone's'' facts, pro or con. ] (]) 00:17, 8 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| I have an admirer who keeps chopping out facts, whole paragraphs of sourced facts, from the article. If you think anything in the article is now POV, please do me a huge favour and change it. If it looks OK to you, tell Youreallycan so. I may have to make a complaint about his persistent vandalism of the article. My additions were POV; he is just vandalising. And, if you do, could you also tell Youreallycan that you have agreed to. He has no right to chop out entire paragraphs of stuff just because he thinks it reflects badly on Osborne. I admit to being POV on Osborne, and I have tried to rectify my additions, but he will not even make an admission of being POV the other way. Sorry to trouble you. ~ ] (]) 00:43, 9 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Well, your version is ''shorter'' than his, and there are a lot of edits where you take stuff out. Some might be justified. You'd make it a whole lot easier for one another and anybody else if you'd discuss point by point the stuff you're taking out, rather than leaving it to edits that change the article so drastically that with Misplaced Pages's crummy default "diff"er at least it's hard for me to make heads or tails out of anything. And I'm having the problem that some of the edits I'd like to restore, like the "Real George Osborne" thing that seemed to have a passable media mention if I recall, are just so darn dull that I don't want to get around to it. It would be a whole lot easier if the two of you could agree to truce, put in all the stuff either one of you want, ''then'' argue about what to delete from a full and comprehensive copy. ] (]) 00:49, 9 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::Hey, Wnt. Yeah, I tried to reword stuff that was POV, made expansions to make counterpoints explicit, etc. That has not been enough for Youreallycan, he just ignored all the adjustments I'd made and, without so much as an explanation or discsussion, mangled the article with a massive reversion to eliminate stuff he doesn't like. I've reworded my little GDP-chart title to make it neutral, but they don't want a pretty picture of how GDP has fared on an article on the, er, Chancellor of the Exchequer. Pretty basic bit of info, you would have thought, and best represented graphically, but no. Apparently not. It is not to be mentioned, nor is the News International stuff. It's ridiculous, the fact they are both complete and utter... Well, never mind that, but it makes it simply even more irritating. ~ ] (]) 02:59, 9 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::Also, you will notice, that ''everything is sourced''. I could put in a dozen mainstream-media cites for some of the stuff, but they still wouldn't be interested. ~ ] (]) 03:00, 9 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::To be honest, I am just so sick and tired of them I will simply request for you to take a look at the reverted article, what I reverted it to, and use your own judgment. It is all already sourced for you, but if you want to further tone down any language etc. be my guest. Remember, News International and its relationship with the police and politicians is one of the biggest news stories of the year over here. We have an ongoing, high-level inquiry into it, and the Prime Minister is appearing before it. Osborne got off with an order to only make a written submission——but these two do not even want it ''mentioned'', nor do they own up to their own POV. I have admitted and have attempted to address mine, so who does that make the more reasonable party? ~ ] (]) 03:05, 9 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| is the one I want you to look at and work with. It still has my little GDP chart with completely neutral title, seems to upset them anyway. And I wanted to add the above article about Osborne facing pressure to appear in person before the ]. ~ ] (]) 03:09, 9 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Any chance of you getting into the article? Best etc. ~ ] (]) 23:09, 13 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::To an outsider it sounds like he had somebody over for dinner. It would be a tough sell to repeat the Guardian's argument there in entirety; it might reasonably be called a very small detail of the Murdoch issue. Also, in this specific case there's an issue to consider of whether the other media, as competitors to Murdoch's news outlets, are truly impartial (I don't know enough about British media to say, but it makes me wary. The one bit of meat I find in the story is: | |||
| :::'But Labour MP ], a prominent critic of ] over phone hacking, said: "After all these revelations it feels like there were two halves of a single clan: in the political wing were Osborne, Cameron, ] and ], and in the media wing were ], ] and ]. They seem to have been completely blind to the ethical considerations and to have forgotten that in government they are there for the whole country and not just for the clan."' | |||
| ::Depending on the prominence of this argument, this may indeed be worth including. Is anyone else quoting this? ] (]) 00:14, 14 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :It is a delicious quote, but I must restrict myself only to drawing attention to things that I like, sadly. I admit again that I simply cannot stand George Osborne or, indeed, Tories generally. Utter and complete scum, almost to the last. The fact that Osborne is so utterly useless merely fuels my fire. Imagine you had someone running your economy whose only job they'd ever got for themselves was folding towels at a more upmarket version of Wal Mart. That is George Osborne. I laugh, I really do, but I keep in mind that better than a fifth of our young people are out of work. ~ ] (]) 03:17, 14 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==!== | |||
| What a post. . ] 20:22, 16 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :I ''am'' honored, truly ... I'm just not sure a barnstar for soapboxing will go over well with all audiences. ;) ] (]) 18:32, 17 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == You've got mail == | |||
| {{YGM}} | |||
| <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 16:28, 17 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :The problem with is that it relies very, very, very heavily on the direct interpretation of primary sources. I'd be more than a little skeptical of some revisionism like changing the meaning of "beat", nonetheless, I'm certainly not qualified to say whether Muhammad's friend slapping a woman on the back of the neck is domestic violence or some kind of playful gesture like modern back-slapping. There are even surplus quotes in there about regarding women like domestic animals which are repellent but not strictly related to the topic of the article. Last but not least, there's the issue that apparently "hadith" are apparently sort of like the Christian apocrypha, with many Muslims not even believing in many of them. It's true that ] and ] are, according to our article on the latter, the two "most authentic" collections of hadith - even so, that same article goes on to say that "Shia Muslims dismiss many parts of as fabrications or untrustworthy". (You also cite the ] which is described as fourth. So I feel like your edit eclipses the more scholarly commentary with quite a few minutiae; I don't mind detail, but you may indeed have pushed into "original synthesis". Some of that - like "It is not wise for anyone of you to lash his wife like a slave, for he might sleep with her the same evening." to be supportive of domestic violence - is certainly debatable interpretation. | |||
| :That said, I appreciate the effort you put into compiling that stuff. There might be a way to rework it for a more specific article about hadith concerning domestic violence or something. But you're still going to need some actual secondary sources to escort that stuff, or it's going to run into more of the same opposition. ] (]) 17:00, 17 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Harry Potter is a Girl == | |||
| This relates to something you made a comment on. I put it on Wikid77's page and I don't know how to do links so here it is. | |||
| So you understand, I had 3 days of a block to read the many WP:XXXX that were thrown at me, to then understand them. So while it might be hard for you to believe that someone can read in 3 days a bunch of WP:XXXX rules, it is not impossible. Actually I didn't have to read many, just the ones that were used against me to have me blocked. As I found, they were being totally misquoted against me. So yeah, you might find it hard to believe, you might also want to go to the Alkaline Diet article and look at how many people said exactly the same thing as I did in the past on the article. Is that hard to believe? Don't bother answering, just know that you might want to look at the history and deal with it. I don't understand why this was taken off Jimbo Wales' page by someone other than him with a note hard to believe. Isn't that his choice? Yes I would like him to discuss it with me. As I put it on his page with the express comment that the people (like you) who are in between him and me are the problem. So you making a personal judgement that someone can't read a few Wiki WP:XXXX rules in 3 days gives you the right to ignore my very detailed comments. Sorry but this is exactly the reason I contacted Jimbo and not you. Maximus. ] (]) 21:49, 23 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :(To be clear, the above is addressed at Wikid77, so there's not much I can say here that I didn't say at the time. But I should make a note to add the ] related usage of ], for which there is a certain limited amount of evidence and a lot of popular usage. ] (]) 21:56, 23 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==Re:Plagiarism issues== | |||
| Thanks for your good faith and kind comment. In 2008 it was not a problem and even the article was chosen as Good article. However, I was not active in the article for a lot of time. Therefor, I may check the article completely in future to find whether that parts are important or not. Thanks again.--<font face="monospace">](]-])</font> 06:41, 24 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == ] opened == | |||
| An arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located at ]. Evidence that you wish the Arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence sub-page, at ]. '''Please add your evidence by June 12, 2012, which is when the evidence phase closes.''' You can contribute to the case workshop sub-page, ]. For a guide to the arbitration process, see ]. For the Arbitration Committee, ] (]) 01:31, 29 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Mentioned in a ArbCom case == | |||
| ] – I'm just letting you know that I've mentioned you in an ArbCom case. --] (]) 18:22, 29 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==WP:RFAR/Fae== | |||
| Your recent post to the evidence talk page was in no way acceptable behaviour, within this case or on any other page on this project. Consider this your one and only warning. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 16:07, 31 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :(Concerned - Replied on Seddon's talk page at ]) ] (]) 16:16, 31 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :: "''Your solution is - perhaps - one step above an ArbCom statement that "Fae is desysopped because homosexuals are unwelcome on Misplaced Pages".''" was what crossed the line by a mile not just a yard, and not simply within this case but what is generally acceptable on this project. | |||
| ::I have assumed that such a comment was not made with conviction and was simply being pointy towards other users, but this case has more than enough emotion. Such divisive throwaway statements are extremely eroding to the working environment of this case especially given the content of it. Accusing people of witch hunt's I would have considered borderline at best anyway let alone when you combine it with such an inflammatory comment. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 16:29, 31 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Actually, I saw that ''not'' as a rhetorical excess but as a fair and direct comparison. As I understood his comment, Fred Huxtable suggested we surrender a core principle - ] - because it arouses offsite opposition. Our acceptance of homosexuals without discrimination is also a core principle, and it ''also'' can arouse offsite opposition. (perhaps does - which is currently a topic of contention at the proceeding) If we started surrendering core principles, it is possible that we would surrender that also. And in practice, I think that many Misplaced Pages topics related to homosexuality involve sexually explicit content, as was relevant to the Ash RfC/U. This partial overlap was the reason why I added " - perhaps -". ] (]) 16:39, 31 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::: I should have been more clear that I was quoting Fred Huxtable himself when I used the phrase "witch hunt" - my intention there was only to summarize his argument in the preceding paragraph. ] (]) 16:44, 31 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::: BTW, it's Feyd Huxtable, not Fred. Don't know if he's the sort to get pissed off if you get his name wrong. --] (]) 17:20, 31 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::As I said, your final sentance is not in anyway a helpful statement to make given the nature of this case. There are plenty of useful comparisons that could be made that wont be so inflammatory, that could lead to people misreading or misinterpreting what you have said and actually could potentially be used to cloud any potential outcome of this case. Being honest that particular discussion is something of a tangent to this case and I very much doubt the arb's will be tackling this so it doesn't particularly add anything. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 17:46, 31 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I see that opinion is forming against the proposal, and at this point I would be content to omit or rework the comment, but I do object to the accusation of violating your ground rules. Whether or not this sentence is "inflammatory", in my opinion it is not actually ''uncivil''. As I've said above, the comparison was not an emotional excess but a logical analogy. ] (]) 17:55, 31 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Section 2257 legal note == | |||
| Hi, | |||
| I wanted to let you know that I have updated Philippe's (WMF) of section 2257 with .] (]) 19:56, 7 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| : Well, that's about as clear as mud, which is a good sign it's probably accurate. ;) (Actually, it's quite well written, and probably as clear as the topic allows... not that I'd be qualified to tell, though...) ] (]) 21:28, 7 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Discussion == | |||
| ] | |||
| You have been mentioned - regards - <font color="purple">]</font><font color="orange">really</font><font color="red">]</font> 22:26, 9 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Needing Wiki contribution assistance! == | |||
| Hello Wnt! | |||
| I am looking for an experienced Wikipedian to contribute an article for our band Mr. Meeble. I have already checked and we meet the Misplaced Pages "notability" guidelines for a band. We have a very basic Misplaced Pages article written already, but I know that someone like yourself may be able to point out our formatting errors and critical omissions. You can hear our music and see our videos here:<br> | |||
| http://youtube.com/mrmeeble<br> | |||
| http://soundcloud.com/meeble<br> | |||
| Let me know if you would be willing to help!<br> | |||
| Regards,<br> | |||
| Devin<br> | |||
| mm @ meeble.com<br> | |||
| ] (]) 03:06, 12 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :My apologies, but I don't edit about music much. Besides, I've been spending waaay too much time on Misplaced Pages of late arguing in the situation leading up to ] - I need to scale back considerably and focus on doing some writing that actually pays... especially if this goes the wrong way, at which point it'll definitely be time to turn one's attention to the lifeboats. ] (]) 00:47, 13 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == "Supportive of Fae" == | |||
| I see you are counting heads on Fae's RfArb, and count me as one of his supporters. I'm curious what I said here that you interpreted so. Diff please?<font color="red">→</font>''''']]<sup>COI: Wikipediocracy</sup> ''''' 22:56, 13 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Hmmm. You appear as voter #4 under ''"Outside view by PaoloNapolitano: A website which Misplaced Pages and the Misplaced Pages community have no control over, harbours harassment of high-profile Misplaced Pages editors. The sole purpose of this page appears to be attacking Misplaced Pages and harassing high-profile users. The most alarming about the page are it's subforums who promote, and are devoted to harassment of Misplaced Pages users. Because of this, Misplaced Pages and the WMF should discourage use of the website.'' The other draft you signed was one by VolunteerMarek saying that that another statement (PaoloNapolitano's, it turns out) was out of place. I see now that your "support" was not actually supportive, but when I was quickly going through all the votes, all I saw was your name on the list of the above statement which I saw as supportive. I'll amend my statement in recognition of this. ] (]) 00:06, 14 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==Not a warning just letting you know== | |||
| I amputated part of what was a tangential spiralling festering thread of bitter doom, but just wanted you to know it wasn't just your comments that got the chop. Talc crossed the line as to what is acceptable. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 19:43, 21 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :You have made this aware to me previously, but these conversations need to be had with far more tact than you have shown. Being very honest with you here, the way you post things like you did and the reason why I have warned you previously, is that the way it comes across is that your almost trying to entrap people. You arn't discussing the issue, you add gasoline to it and make things worse and undermine any potential good that your trying to get out of it. My redaction stands. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 20:11, 21 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Pending changes discussion == | |||
| ] – They're talking about you and how your reviewer rights were removed. --] (]) 21:37, 23 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == notification == | |||
| Hi - you have been mentioned by me, and another user in this discussion - ] - regards - <font color="purple">]</font><font color="orange">really</font><font color="red">]</font> 21:54, 23 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == My PC2012 page == | |||
| Hi Wnt, I'm trying to put together a FAQ for my PC2012 subpage. If it's okay with you, I want to make the point that we can expect people to lose their reviewing privileges because of their views (unless there's consensus to change PC before November 1) rather than because of their actions, because it happened during the first trial. At the time your reviewer hat was taken away back during the PC trials, had you actually participated as a reviewer in the trial? If so, roughly how much? Am I correct in understanding that you were given the hat without asking for it? Do you know if anyone else lost their reviewing privileges? - Dank (]) 18:27, 1 August 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :I think I accepted one or two edits to test the process and get a notion of what it looked like. I actually never asked to be given the right; nonetheless, having it taken away for stating my opinion was indeed a useful "troubleshoot". I think I remember someone else had it revoked by the same admin around the same time but I don't remember who. Also note that I never have had nor looked for the rollbacker right - it seems like a very specialized vandal-fighting tool that is only useful if you patrol for them very specifically. A small part of the weirdness about this proposal is that it would seem like many people would be getting rollbacker simply so that they can review edits, and it sounds like a tool that can lead people into trouble if they're not careful. ] (]) 18:34, 1 August 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::Great, thanks. - Dank (]) 18:42, 1 August 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Interesting == | |||
| I've been reading a lot of your comments lately, and I'm impressed by your thoughtful analysis of things. ] (]) 19:33, 6 August 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==Disambiguation link notification for August 28== | |||
| Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Misplaced Pages appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited ], you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page ] (] | ]). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. <small>Read the ]{{*}} Join us at the ].</small> | |||
| It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these ]. Thanks, ] (]) 13:54, 28 August 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :All the names in the world and they reused one four times? ] (]) 18:13, 28 August 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == More Aether in glass than air == | |||
| Do you mean per volume or per gram?] (]) 14:20, 7 September 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Per volume. There ''is'' a difference in the refractive index of glass versus air - according to ] glasses tend to be 1.4 or more, whereas liquid oxygen and liquid nitrogen have 1.2236 and 1.196 respectively. The refractive index of air itself is 1.000293 - if you imagine condensing 22 liters down to 14 cc's to match the density of water, and do simple multiplication (not sure that's valid; in any case it's not a real physical process) you get 1.46. The refractive index per mass differs, but not by a very large amount. | |||
| :Mind you, I really do ''not'' know the modelling by which some people have described electromagnetic fields like a curvature in space; but I think that they should curve around charges just as regular spacetime for gravity curves around masses. So this surplus electromagnetic "spacetime", wrapped up more around the increased density of atoms (mostly) and different type of atoms (somewhat) of glass, could be, in poetic terms, described as an aether. I think. As I said, I added that comment in the hope someone would clarify where my understanding is deficient. :) ] (]) 14:49, 7 September 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::So does my notion of a black hole being so dense that all the aether is forced out of that space jive with this idea?] (]) 15:44, 7 September 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::I assume from - No. The black hole curves regular four-dimensional spacetime according to its mass; ''if'' it has charge then this bends the paths of charged particles moving near it, so that would be a curvature in this other dimension (as best as I understand it) which I've compared to an aether. ] (]) 15:51, 7 September 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Wonder why no one replied. Thanks] (]) 17:38, 7 September 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I made that comment pretty late - I think a lot of participants read only the most recent questions. (I'm not so good about keeping track of the older ones myself) ] (]) 17:49, 7 September 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Adding Wikilinks... == | |||
| I believe the consensus is that it's best to add them as a new post, rather than change somebody else's post. Otherwise, it can cause confusion, like "Why is the OP asking us about a topic he linked to in his own post ?". In this case, it also makes my subsequent link to the ] article look redundant, when it was not. ] (]) 21:32, 8 September 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :I thought it was harmless, but if it bothers someone I won't then. From his comment it was obvious he'd read the ] article and presumably the other one also or else I'd have left a comment about it. ] (]) 22:55, 8 September 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::OK, no biggie. Cheers ! ] (]) 23:24, 8 September 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| Hi Wnt. Because you participated in ], you may be interested in ]. ] (]) 05:58, 9 September 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Juries == | |||
| The time of day that people edit is much less important, in my opinion, than truly random selection of peers. If you call for a jury after the parties and their controversy are known, then there is no way they can possibly be impartial. You have to recruit into a jury pool in advance or it's just an RFC/U. —] 12:35, 10 September 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Well, the problem with the ''real'' RfC/U is that it seems like the neutral editors one would hope such a thing would recruit are scarce, and there's no way to identify much less defer to them over the ones who are biased. If we formally recruit random editors, and recognize them as such during such a proceeding, then we get around that. It's true that it would be nice to have a jury pool and march them neatly into the proceeding when you want them, but unlike with IRL juries we can't compel service. Now, maybe if we identified "these people actually want to be jurors" first, then canvass them for a specific case second, we'd have a slightly less self-selected group than doing the two steps at once, but I don't immediately see an easy way to do this and still have it be all that random. ] (]) 14:23, 10 September 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::Sure, just ask people whether they can serve in advance. If you have trouble getting the 200 or so you would need for a sample of 15 to be statistically random, make one of those badge/pin/book-with-coffee-stain userbox things, or start asking at RfA whether candidates have volunteered, or both. Additional reply at ] —] 17:14, 10 September 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == AN/I == | |||
| Hello. There is currently a discussion at ] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. <!--Template:ANI-notice--> Thank you. | |||
| ] (]) 21:56, 12 September 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :My, but some people feel determined to get AN/I interested in the Refdesk. But they shouldn't be... ] (]) 23:26, 12 September 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Ancillary copyright and Google == | |||
| Since you wrote the article, I hope you'll not be too upset at a Reference Desk-style question :-) How will this be able to affect Google? Do they have servers in Germany as well as in the USA? Unless they're relying on German servers, I don't see how this will affect them, since US law would permit this as a kind of fair use. Talkback or reply at my talk page, please. ] (]) 04:57, 15 September 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Thanks for the reply. I previously had no clue that they were physically present in Germany; I thought all their servers were out in San Francisco. ] (]) 17:30, 15 September 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==DYK for Ancillary copyright== | |||
| {{tmbox | |||
| |style = notice | |||
| |small = | |||
| |image = {{#switch: {{Currentdaymonth}} | 31 October = ] | ]}} | |||
| |text = On ], ''']''' was updated with a fact from the article ''''']''''', which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ''... that the proposed German ''']''' would affect sites that used even short snippets of news articles?'' {{#if: |The nomination discussion and review may be seen at ].|{{#ifexist:Template:Did you know nominations/Ancillary copyright|The nomination discussion and review may be seen at ].|{{#ifexist:Template talk:Did you know/Ancillary copyright|The nomination discussion and review may be seen at ].}} }} }} You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page <small>(], )</small> and it will be added to ] if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the ]. | |||
| }} ]<sup>]</sup> 16:02, 15 September 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == ITN for ] == | |||
| {{tmbox | |||
| |tyle = notice | |||
| |small = | |||
| |image = ] | |||
| |text = On 26 September 2012, ''']''' was updated with a news item that involved the article ''''']''''', which you recently nominated ''and'' substantially updated. If you know of another interesting news item involving a recently created or updated article, then please suggest it on the ]. | |||
| }}<!--Template:ITN credit--> --''']'''<sup>]]</sup> 05:21, 26 September 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == PC RfC == | |||
| Hi. In ] you may want to change your asterisk to a pound sign so that your !vote will be numbered. ] (]) 09:00, 2 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==Modification to ]== | |||
| Hello. Because the "Yes" section was split between one group in favor of applying protection to all articles and one group in favor of applying protection to articles only when there has been a problem, I have split the section to reflect this difference. Please go back to that page and make sure that your vote is still in the section that most closely reflects your views. ] ] 16:18, 2 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==Disambiguation link notification for October 11== | |||
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| It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these ]. Thanks, ] (]) 14:19, 11 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Oh, Lord. "Somebody should do something with that".... ] (]) 16:58, 11 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
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| ==Prem Rawat== | |||
| Just to say thanks for your edit to the ] article. I have commented on the article Talk Page that I consider your edit an improvement but everyone else seems to have gone remarkably quiet... Anyway I wanted fresh people like you to comment as I am considered an opponent of Rawat by the editors there and attract considerable suspicion. Actually I'm not - I just oppose the one-sidedness of the article. Much obliged. ] (]) 23:38, 20 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Momento has removed most of your edit . Please can you tell me if it's appropriate to discuss this at the . Apparently I can't comment 'prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments'. Could you do this please? ] (]) 09:20, 21 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have no idea if it's appropriate to open another forum there for discussing this paragraph. I made the comment mostly to put up a diff so that I could show in practice what I wanted to implement in theory. One person commented at the article talk page that the paragraph I submitted didn't match the comment I made, so I think this was a useful way to clarify what I meant. I really don't want to get sucked into a bottomless pit of arguments over this paragraph - you're already seeking mediation and I thought it would help to launch a trial balloon and see which way it went. ] (]) 15:24, 21 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == CMB == | |||
| HI. I've appreciated your responses on this topic, but these have been difficult for me to understand. I'm thinking that perhaps my confusion stems from argument(s) I've heard that "physics is local" which might mean limiting inertial reference frames to specific and very localized lattices? I ask because I do think of these frames as extending uniformly to infinity, and I cannot think of a proper reference frame lattice varying over distances in any significant way. Another possible source of confusion (I don't know if this is the case, but as I said I'm at a lost to understand your reply) is perhaps you are thinking Hubble's law isn't uniform when AFAIK is supposed to involve a spatially uniform expansion (observers in different parts of the observable universe should be currently observing basically the same distant red shifts and law). ] (]) 20:24, 21 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Well, what I mean is that, when you talk about whether there could be exceptions to relativity, the first thing people are going to point out is that while most matter is going at less than 0.01 c around ''here'', when you look at distant galaxies they're flying away from us at great speed. Of course, from their perspective, matter is also moving at close to a single frame of reference - one different from ours. And the cosmic microwave background is also pretty close to symmetrical around ''them''. So if there is an "absolute frame of reference", it must be one which is ''different'' between here and there. But I think you could have one which varies from place to place, but is nonetheless somehow special - e.g. if nothing is able to move backward in time relative to that frame, given some unknown physics of FTL travel. (Usually all this stuff boils down to explaining why you have warp drive but not time travel in some sci-fi you are or should be writing, which is why I mention it) ] (]) 20:32, 21 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::Because we are in an expansion, we are not at rest with respect to each other! I should have realized this is what you meant, and you are correct in observing this, thus I was being dense, thus let me, if you will, sort this out and tidy things up. :-) With my postulated classical absolute inertial frame, every composite object has the exact same absolute rest state, whether it be a galaxy, a planet or an atom. The CMB may not coincide with this frame and any distinction would indicate our place with respect to its sources (but not the universe which could be infinitely larger). But since it does seem unlikely that we should be near the center of the redshifts we can observe, acceptance of my work seems to hinge on whether or not there turns out to be another explanation for these. But since I'm attempting to construct an alternative model, I must have alternative explanations for other things too (with many of the most important of these I already seem to have at hand, such as conceptually and mathematically understanding, very simply, why the speed of all processes such as clocks are velocity dependent, why is it we measure relative Doppler shifts, why does the vacuum light speed appear invariant in all our experiments, why we observe a transverse Doppler, why mass and energy are equivalent, why is mass-energy velocity dependent, etc). Therefore, its my current view that gravitons are particles that are responsible not only for gravity and gravitational redshifts, but for a substantial background effect that reddens light that travels great distances. I can always be wrong of course, and I don't have the details worked out enough to make any predictions on this front, but my model has been getting progressively better. ] (]) 19:47, 22 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Well, I hate to dash your hopes, but it doesn't sound like you're all that close to publication. I rather ''do'' wish I knew if someone with access to years of results from one of the big supercolliders had looked at some class of basic particle decay that occurs at the right speeds so that, when proceeding in certain directiosn, at certain times of day and year, it is at "true rest" relative to the CMB (with some room for calibration!) in order to see whether there is any special frame where physics starts to work... strangely. (I would also wonder if there could be some angle from the sun where some of the exiting particles might be hot/fast enough to reach a hypothetical absolute rest frame, again with the question of whether some unexpected effect could occur, or whether there would be certain stars at rest relative to the absolute frame that would show strange spectra, etc. It is all very unlikely, and yet... no one expected relativity until it was thrust upon them) ] (]) 21:00, 22 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Stranger physics... nooooooo more of that, thanks, I've had my fill ;-) In early grade school, I remember being bombarded with movies about relativity, thus the lesson starts fairly early on. Of course, I've studied the basics, such as how general relativity associates Newton's inverse law with spatial curvature, and how the electric and magnetic field strengths swap with each other depending on the reference frame. My model can handle these with ease, but its framework is far simpler, thus I don't expect to ever have to resort to Lorentz boosts, time reversals and compact dimensions!-] (]) 22:23, 22 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==Morel hunting== | |||
| If you're interested in the Morel hunting tips, drop me a line (I also have never seen one in the wild, but can pass on what I was told). ] (]) 22:41, 22 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==Disambiguation link notification for October 24== | |||
| Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Misplaced Pages appreciates your help. We noticed though that you've added some links pointing to ]. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. <small>Read the ]{{*}} Join us at the ].</small> | |||
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| It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these ]. Thanks, ] (]) 15:33, 24 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==Ya`fūr== | |||
| Apologies for the forwardness, but I noticed the difficulties you were encountering with your DYK nomination of ]. I've rewritten the article - I'd be interested to know what you think of it now. ] (]) 22:10, 24 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :I hadn't noticed them myself - I see now that two admirers really took to stripping out anything at all about ] just before you arrived. I don't even quite understand ''why'' so many people are hostile to the idea that we could understand that that film had a basis, that that basis was problematic, and that there could be some meeting of the minds on the issue once the parameters were understood. ] (]) 22:15, 24 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::The nomination appears to have stalled. Can you please reply to the latest query on hook wording? I'm hoping we can get this concluded soon and onto the main page. ] (]) 15:32, 4 November 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == War on common sense == | |||
| I liked your comment . It also jibes with the last paragraph of Hans Adlers comment : | |||
| :''I am not willing to adapt to the puritan standards of behaviour that are apparently required for participating here. I think I have never encountered such standards in real life, and I am only familiar with them from reports about American society and what I have seen on this project.'' | |||
| Wish this would be discussed as the underlying issue to many of the English Misplaced Pages's problems. en.Misplaced Pages in general is too much like the USA imho. --] (]) 23:27, 24 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Again with the OR at ] == | |||
| As I said with regards to your original research, put up or shut up ; provide evidence for your assertions. Astrology has been scientifically tested and has always come up short. If you are going to say otherwise, then the onus is on you to back it up rather than making spurious statements. Then demonstrate how that corresponds to what astrologers ''actually'' believe, rather than your guess work of what they believe. Astrologers believe that the ''apparent'' positions of ''all'' the planets in the sky indicates what will happen. It's not just the time of year. Some astrologers follow systems where the signs ''change'' with the calender, some don't. You aren't describing Astrology here, you are inserting your own made up "explanations" and saying that's what astrology is like, and saying therefore we can't say it's not true. Do the research. What you believe does not correspond to what astrologers believe at the most basic level. And if you do, make sure it has some actual relevance to what people are talking about. <small>My knowledge isn't perfect but it's a lot closer to an actual description.</small> ] (]) 20:03, 25 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :I am refuting the ''polemical'' claim that any change in humans depending on the time of year when they are born is impossible. I was not providing an answer or claiming that I had factual evidence, only trying to see the issue evaluated in terms of science and not knee-jerk reaction. However, looking it up, I'm finding The researcher cited, ], is actually a ] fellow, so I'm not saying that this is an ironclad source either (so far I haven't tracked down the original study, nor did I even find one I remember that lifespan is longer for fall births). ''Nonetheless'' it is a factual claim, and factual claims can be evaluated by science, and it is a rational explanation, not a statement of religious belief. You are being "hypercorrect" and rejecting the idea of astrology ''religiously'', not citing some source that shows that infants are identical. ] (]) 22:42, 25 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::Who made that claim that "any change in humans depending on the time of year when they are born is impossible"? and what is it's relevant to whether astrology is correct or not. ] (]) 22:51, 25 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::That is all I was saying at the Refdesk. There ''could'' be, in a specific population, a relationship between some time of the year (whether expressed as months or zodiac signs) and a specific phenotype, including personality traits, if a certain food were consumed (or not consumed) only during that time of year. Doesn't mean I "believe in astrology" - only that if I opened an ancient book of astrology and read that, say, Gemini brought the birth of sickly children, or shy and withdrawn children, or whatever, my first thought would be to do some ethnobotanical backtracking and see what might have been responsible. ''Not'' to burn the book. ] (]) 22:55, 25 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Who suggested to go around burning books? This has nothing to do with the veracity or not of astrology. You are also asserting things about history when these are inconsistent with what we know of history. You haven't checked the basic history; you say things which aren't consistent with what the astrologers of the time were actually trying to predict, like the weather, politics and world affairs. ] (]) 23:12, 25 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Well, I've heard it said weather is correlated with the time of year. And as for politics and world affairs, well, ] was named for a reason. Astrology (like many of the medical pseudosciences) is an example of how people use their reason to come up with a flawed, but potentially useful framework for evaluating hypotheses in the absence of a better idea. ] (]) 23:18, 25 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::March was named after Mars, the god of war. I don't see the connection to what we are taking about. As I have already stated, astrologers are concerned with the apparent position of the planets in the sky. The same planets aren't in the same position every year ... You somehow seem to think astrology is just ] ] (]) 23:47, 25 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==Orphaned non-free image File:Innocence of Muslims.png== | |||
| <span style="font-size:32px; line-height:1em">''']'''</span> Thanks for uploading ''']'''. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Misplaced Pages under a ]. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Misplaced Pages. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Misplaced Pages (see ]). | |||
| Note that any non-free images not used in any '''articles''' will be deleted after seven days, as described in the ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Di-orphaned fair use-notice --> ] (]) 17:25, 29 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Oxidative stress and immune system == | |||
| Thank you very much. My problem is exactly that I need a general approach to the topic, while the majority of papers I met on-line (including those found using the external links you seggested) is very specific. For this reason I was looking for a treatise. If you are so kind to seggest me a book about the immune system that covers the subject, it will be great! | |||
| Many thanks. | |||
| ] (]) 15:17, 5 November 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==DYK for Ya`fūr== | |||
| {{tmbox | |||
| |style = notice | |||
| |small = | |||
| |image = ] | |||
| |text = On ], ''']''' was updated with a fact from the article ''''']''''', which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ''... that according to an ]ic tradition regarded as fabricated, ''']''' was a talking donkey owned by the Prophet ] that was descended from ]'s donkey ''(pictured)''?'' {{#if: |The nomination discussion and review may be seen at ].|{{#ifexist:Template:Did you know nominations/Ya`fūr|The nomination discussion and review may be seen at ].|{{#ifexist:Template talk:Did you know/Ya`fūr|The nomination discussion and review may be seen at ].}} }} }} You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page <small>(], )</small> and it will be added to ] if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the ]. | |||
| }} ] (]) 08:02, 12 November 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==Disambiguation link notification for November 17== | |||
| Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Misplaced Pages appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited ], you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page ] (] | ]). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. <small>Read the ]{{*}} Join us at the ].</small> | |||
| It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these ]. Thanks, ] (]) 12:40, 17 November 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Prem Rawat topic ban == | |||
| Thank you, Wnt, for sharing your observation concerning my topic-ban on the arbitration page! Let me add, that the edit in question was only made under exemplary conditions, uncontested, after previous discussion and unanimous agreement from all parties, including user:SylvieCyn and PatW as exponents of Rawat’s critics. Contrary to "battleground behavior"! As regards content, it may at first glance seem odd, as do many items in this BLP, but that is accounted for on the talk pages. It shows also, how above average experience and competence in the matter are very dearly desirable on this article, and that just being Misplaced Pages-street-wise can easily lead to fallacies. That is the reason why I joined in, even though English is not my first language. I am also completely independent, and there has never been a trace of COI.--] (]) 20:29, 18 November 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==Thanks== | |||
| I've added added a ] on ] and used your suggestions on the ] article. Thanks alot for your help. Cheers. :) ] (]) 18:23, 19 November 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :You'll probably still run into arguments with edits that large - there are still things people will object to in all that text, and unfortunately, few actually try to delete just the parts they find fault with. Personally I prefer a big article over a little one any day of the week. ] (]) 18:36, 19 November 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::I couldn't have said it better. I's so frustrating when you've tried with the best intentions to improve wikipedia, end up witnessing it all reverted. A medium of such importance needs more editors like you. Thanks for your help. Cheers. ] (]) 21:04, 19 November 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==Disambiguation link notification for November 24== | |||
| Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Misplaced Pages appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited ], you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page ] (] | ]). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. <small>Read the ]{{*}} Join us at the ].</small> | |||
| It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these ]. Thanks, ] (]) 17:36, 24 November 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==DYK nomination of Communications Data Bill 2012== | |||
| ] Hello! Your submission of ] at the ] has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath ''']''' and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! <!--Template:DYKproblem--> ] (]) 18:56, 27 November 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == ] discussion == | |||
| I have asked for a topic or interaction ban because of your constant misstatements and false accusations. Please feel free to join the discussion. Thanks. ] (]) 20:54, 30 November 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :The ] was resolved in my favor. But during the couple of days it went on, you said Russavia and others were persecuting you, dismissed the Reference Desks as "troll magnets", started a new section to accuse Shrigley of personal attacks over a comment in favor, and accused a 16-year-old gay editor who happened to disagree with your criticism of Shrigley of being a "sock puppet" based on what, I can't fathom, leading to some kind of knee-jerk unjustified block from Coren and John Vandenberg then calling on his talk page for him to give up checkuser access, and the kid being coerced into giving personal information that he then had to have revdeled. Any commentary I could make on this would be superfluous. ] (]) 17:31, 4 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::By "resolved in your favour", I think you mean archived without action. I decided not to pursue it after I saw that it was simply causing more drama than it was worth. I have apologized to F&A for implying that they were a PaoloNapolitano/Flutterhsy sockpuppet without evidence. I stand by all of my other comments though, however people wish to view them. Let's resolve this amicably - you know how I feel about your comments, so if you absolutely must comment in a thread that I have started, read everything over until you are sure you understand what has been said, do not make assumptions, do not make accusations, and think twice before posting. I will do the same. Deal? ] (]) 17:43, 4 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::That all sounds like reasonable practice, and I don't think I've strayed from it often, but I know Misplaced Pages too well to actually ''promise'' anything, as doing so inevitably leads to further drama. ] (]) 18:33, 4 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Thank you. ] (]) 18:40, 4 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==DYK nomination of Communications Data Bill 2012== | |||
| ] Hello! Your submission of ] at the ] has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath ''']''' and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! <!--Template:DYKproblem--> ] (]) 19:52, 19 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == To be clear == | |||
| Once again, you seem to have misunderstood something that really isn't very hard to understand. On Jimbo's talk page, you ''"I've nearly ''agreed'' with you, called for the community to be able to look into these issues as you want them to be able to..."''. That is not ''at all'' what I want. I am asking you, again, to stop making statements that state or imply my position, since you seem to be unable to understand anything I say and I do not wish to be associated with your routine misinterpretations. Do you remember what we ? I made no comment on your , yet you could not stop yourself from commenting on a thread that I started, ''after'' it had already been hatted twice. Please try harder. ] (]) 20:43, 19 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :You've posted two threads to a major Misplaced Pages talk forum, but you ''don't'' want the community to be able to read about what they say? ] (]) 16:16, 21 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::I think you have proven my point. ] (]) 23:59, 22 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::Apparently we ''don't'' understand each other, either here or above. I never promised to avoid commenting on threads you bring up, especially when they concern important matters of policy. Nor do I feel that I "accused" you of anything in what I said. What you were doing in this recent case was important, and the outcome of this commentary was that at least Misplaced Pages is applying ''some'' policy about this issue, rather than seeming completely paralyzed, even if that includes threats to block you for public discussion of a case. (I apologize for my own intentionally vague phrasing here for this reason) I would prefer a different policy, one where the community is free to openly discuss all particulars of a case and make its own policy decisions. In some cases that is difficult and takes a lot of thinking that I feel should be open to ideas from all sources. But it is important for Misplaced Pages to actually follow ''some'' policy to do ''something'', even if it's one I disagree with. I still have not decided either way what I think of the particular case you have described. ] (]) 14:49, 24 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| Hi there Wnt, you may want to revisit this page if you want the DYK to go through. — ] (]) 22:59, 22 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :It's been another two weeks. The article hasn't been touched since early December. Please check in to let us know your plans. Many thanks. ] (]) 04:23, 10 January 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == The constructive engagement award == | |||
| {| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;" | |||
| |rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ] | |||
| |style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The constructive engagement award''' | |||
| |- | |||
| |style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Awarded for being right about Reagan's antics! (He did like to back his words with a very very big fleet though.) --] (]) 03:52, 27 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| |} | |||
| :(I still think Tarc is confused - though whether he's confused about me, Reagan, Nixon, all three, or something else, I'll let history decide.) --] (]) 03:53, 27 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Huh? == | |||
| You have said that I can't be trusted with the real identities of members of Wiki Med. You have said that disclosing those details to me is disclosing them to WO. Redact it. It is false. I'm more than willing to discuss your concerns. But first redact it. --] (]) 16:32, 27 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :I did ''not'' say that, but to be clear, I have now noted this explicitly. ] (]) 16:56, 27 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::So, what are your concerns about me? --] (]) 17:27, 27 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::Personally, I don't think that someone who has shown your lack of sympathy for Fae's situation should be selected to propose and administer a mandatory identification policy for a Misplaced Pages thematic organization. Note that the entire point, or concern, of the first paragraph is ultimately that Wikipediocracy members are ''successful'' and I expect them to make money and have a good career out of their activities. ] (]) 17:49, 27 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I have a great deal of sympathy for Fae's position. I happen to think that he should have resigned his admin bit when it became clear that the RfA had been misled regarding the Ash RfC. I was totally unimpressed when he didn't. But I think the behaviour of a lot of people at his RfC, including you, was appalling. You and they kept going on and on about very personal, very irrelevant stuff, seemingly completely oblivious or uncaring about how that must have been impacting him. I sympathised with him (literally - in an email) when he was rejected by Jimbo. I didn't follow that incident so have no opinion on its merits but I knew it must have hurt his feelings deeply. | |||
| ::::I was one of the first people nominated for a free t-shirt, so that page was on my watchlist. That's how I saw Koh's nomination - I wasn't dispatched there from WO. | |||
| ::::I totally repudiate the implication in your post on Jimbo's page that I can't be trusted with the identities of Wiki Med members. ] (]) 18:38, 27 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ==Disambiguation link notification for January 6== | |||
| Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Misplaced Pages appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited ], you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page ] (] | ]). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. <small>Read the ]{{*}} Join us at the ].</small> | |||
| It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these ]. Thanks, ] (]) 12:03, 6 January 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == File:The Vandal's Barnstar.png listed for deletion == | |||
| A file that you uploaded or altered, ], has been listed at ]. Please see the ] to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. <!-- Template:Fdw --> ] (]) 02:11, 15 January 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Replaceable fair use File:Tyrian shekel.png == | |||
| ] | |||
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| # On ], write the reason why this media item is not replaceable at all. | |||
| Alternatively, you can also choose to replace this non-free media item by finding freely licensed media of the same subject, ], or by creating new media yourself (for example, by taking your own photograph of the subject). | |||
| If you have uploaded other non-free media, consider checking that you have specified how these media fully satisfy our non-free content criteria. You can find a list of description pages you have edited by clicking on <span class="plainlinks"></span>. Note that even if you follow steps 1 and 2 above, non-free media which could be replaced by freely licensed alternatives will be deleted 2 days after this notification (7 days if uploaded before 13 July 2006), per the ]. If you have any questions, please ask them at the ]. Thank you. <!-- Template:di-replaceable fair use-notice --> ] ] 09:28, 24 January 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :This is from a long time back ... Fair Use seems like the wrong thing. I'd say PD-old, apparently was leaning in that direction at the time, but if it isn't obvious it isn't cost-effective to argue it. ] (]) 16:06, 24 January 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Orphaned non-free media (File:Tyrian shekel.png) == | |||
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| If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'file' pages you have edited by clicking on the "]" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that all non-free media not used in any '''articles''' will be deleted after seven days, as described on ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Orphaned --> ] (]) 04:06, 25 January 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Could use your input == | |||
| Having a discussion over ]. could use your input. ] (]) 03:44, 2 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == For reference, this is the article that is being redacted == | |||
| http://www.vice.com/read/kody-maxson-amanda-todds-alleged-tormenter-has-reemerged-online ] (]) 19:33, 2 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't know what to make of this. There's obviously a whole subculture of kids doing stuff like this to each other, or claiming they did it to each other, and it's very hard to pick out truth from fiction. This is the most primary source I can possibly imagine, and I don't put much credit in its conclusions, but its conclusions are in any case not about ''that'' girl. | |||
| :I don't know whether you have an emotional attachment to the case or not, but my feeling is that if you do, it is misplaced. Our anger should not be for some kid stupidly posting videos. Our anger should be for a Talibanesque society that stigmatizes women if they expose their breasts - even when they clearly do not intend this for publication. It should be for a society dominated by the wealthy, where labor is a surplus and all production comes from capital, quota, claims, "rights", machines, where people are nonetheless told they must work to have anything, and then the choice of who gets that privilege and who doesn't is made according to this and other stupid prejudices. These kids, ''all'' these kids, are dupes and victims, nothing more. ] (]) 22:49, 2 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ==Rizana Nafeeks' Image== | |||
| Since 9 editors including 3 administrators(including Jimbo Wales) agreed that the image qualifies under fair use, I have added back the image to the page ]. ] removed it. | |||
| There is a going on currently. Please let others know whether still you believe the Image has a Fair Use value?] (]) 15:08, 4 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Thanks == | |||
| For the Pluto link! I'll take a look. ] <sup>(]|])</sup> 17:29, 13 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == By the way == | |||
| Are you named after the signalling pathway? See the bottom of ] if so. Best. ] (]) 19:23, 13 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :These courses are laid out very differently from the rest of Misplaced Pages. An is required for students to take part, which I presume means that it requires payment. Now I won't claim to be "incorruptible", that I couldn't be recruited in some role if I felt that it would bring me money or at least some sort of career prospect out of it, but it seems against the spirit of Misplaced Pages for me to select an editor to receive my free assistance solely because he possessed a token establishing his status as a university student. I do take part in the ] and these students, of course, are free to ask questions there. ] (]) 20:30, 13 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::No payment. It's just a mechanism to ensure everyone can't edit the page, which I found curious and that subject has been addressed and archived at ]. I started ] to try and explain things. I just thought if you had an academic interest in the pathway you could comment and converse with the student at ] or their talk page. Best! ] (]) 19:11, 15 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::Are you saying the course is open to people not enrolled at the University of St. Louis? ] (]) 23:01, 15 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The course is not open in that way, but I have access to the enrollment token despite not being enrolled at ]. ] (]) 16:17, 18 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ==Governance Review== | |||
| Wnt, you converted the Governance Review on Commons to .djvu format the other day (well done!). Could you do the same for the ? Thanks, ] <small><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>]</small> 20:21, 13 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Well, for completeness I did this, though it is possible I will not approve of the use you'll put it to. ] (]) 20:57, 13 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks. You don't have to worry; I'm not contemplating any further use. But the thing should be available. ] <small><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>]</small> 00:34, 14 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == A barnstar for you! == | |||
| {| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;" | |||
| |rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ] | |||
| |style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The Civility Barnstar''' | |||
| |- | |||
| |style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | for your remarkably patient response at the Reference Desk when accused of being responsible for a completely different editor's teasing of the original poster for making a spelling error --] (]) 21:33, 16 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| |} | |||
| :Well, he must have just read what I said backwards. As he said, he isn't a native speaker, and I find that when reading things in languages I don't know well, I often get the meaning "almost" right - but 180 degrees in the wrong direction. ] (]) 21:37, 16 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Secondary/primary sources... == | |||
| Hi Wnt | |||
| We were both talking in the Talk pages of MEDRS, in the section on primary/secondary sources. I am a bit confused as to where you are coming from. You know that under the vanilla ] there is a section on "no original research which is expanded with a subpage specifically discussing ], which in turn has a section on ], which section makes it really clear that "Misplaced Pages articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources, though primary sources are permitted if used carefully. Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided." So I am a bit confused that you are upset about MEDRS and its parallel requirement for secondary sources. If you are writing about, say, the role of wnt in the cell biology of breast cancer, it doesn't really matter whether you work under plain old "reliable sources" or MEDRS - you will always be working out of the biomedical literature, and you should always work with reviews or textbooks, and using primary sources rarely and with great care - and temporarily until the field solidifies to the point where there are decent reviews on the subject that can replace the primary source. This is what you do, right?] (]) 20:43, 20 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :For whatever is not subject to MEDRS (which apparently is quite a range of interpretation) the option always exists to cite good primary sources when they come out. Primary sources ''are'' reliable sources, especially when they are found in high-quality journals; they merely need to be used with a bit of caution to avoid making claims that they don't actually support. I think that the optimal sourcing, when available, should cite a tertiary source like a textbook, a secondary source like a recent literature review, one or more key primary studies that established the conclusion, and a popular science article to explain it to those with less technical familiarity with the subject. I do not agree that primary sources should be "temporary". The first thing you learn when seriously studying biology is that there's no substitute for going back to the original article and actually looking at the evidence for yourself. When you start playing a game of telephone with the conclusions, you can start believing all sorts of odd things. There is no doubt in my mind that physics or astronomy articles are better off because people can cite popular magazines and primary papers from ArXiv, even though yes, they not infrequently contain claims that I don't know if they're for real or not. (Just was looking at such an instance in ], for curiosity and comparison...) ] (]) 22:58, 20 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :: Sorry I mis-framed my question. First, let me say that I hear what you say above - you think content should be optimally sourced by all three (3rd, 2nd, 1st) plus a popular press article, and you think primary sources are fine for permanent sourcing. What I would like to know, is if you understand what current Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines are -- that what you are proposing is a change from what policy for all wikipedia content (including medical) actually is now. Do you see that? ] (]) 14:36, 22 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :: as an aside, I work in biotech so you don't need to tell me about the importance of going back to the primary sources. Also, I don't know you are aware of the two scientific articles that have come out, in which scientists at companies show the results of their efforts to replicate findings in papers (many of them in the best journals) that reveal a potentially interesting new target for drug discovery. I think each article showed results from trying to replicate about 100 papers. They did this because if the targets were real, the company would consider starting to invest real money in working on them -- it is not just reputation or getting the next grant for a lab that is on the line with respect to truth or falseness of the findings-- millions of dollars and years of work will be invested if the company decides the results are real - money and time that the company is accountable for, to its shareholders. One paper was from team for Bayer and the other was from Amgen, I think. In both papers, they could only replicate something like 20% of the findings. Terrible! There have been rumors about this for many years but these two papers are the first publications on it. If you haven't seen these papers I would be happy to shoot you the refs. Anyway this has made me think differently about the truth-value of primary papers in the biomedical field, even in high quality journals. ] (]) 14:36, 22 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::I've located this . Of course this is highly disturbing and points to a variety of widespread problems, not the least of which is too much emphasis on trying to fund "the best" people, rather than just paying lower salaries and hiring more people to do more careful work without the constant battle for grant money through sensationalism. I think too many funders spend their efforts wandering around with dowsing rods pretending they can tell where the lightning is going to strike, and the pretense that research is a field of only professors and students doesn't match the reality of the data mines. | |||
| ::::For what it is worth, I don't think it is so much about who gets funded, as the standards for what is publishable are too low and somewhat wrong. The somewhat wrong part: there should be a place for labs to publish negative results, and also simple replication of others' findings. The too low part: and for new findings, there should be a requirement for much bigger Ns. The small Ns is the biggest problem, IMO. (that, and the fact that scientists cherry pick what experiments "count" - the data from specific experiments that yielded negative results for the hypothesis are thrown out due to "experimental error" (which does happen) and only the positive data (from the experiments that "worked") get shown -- this is trickiest part by far, and why I think so many findings fail to replicate. I don't think there is any way to fix that, since experimental error does occur. But bigger Ns for publishing would help. Of course the way that grant funding cycles work, it is not neccesarily practical to require bigger Ns... the whole system is kind of broken.] (]) 17:14, 22 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::Nonetheless, let's put this back in context. A hundred millennia of people suffer a disease without hope of cure, and today we don't know which one of four drugs is really useful to cure it. Boo hoo. So science is being done badly, wastefully - it's being done. And if we in a Misplaced Pages article can say "one of these four drugs may well be about to change the lives of people with this disease", then by all means, without a moment's hesitation, we should put every last one of them in the article! ] (]) 16:45, 22 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Would you please respond to my question? Let me rephrase it. Do you think that the way you argue sourcing should be done complies with policy on reliable sourcing ] and the ] guideline, or are you arguing that the policy and guideline should be changed? This is an important question to me, and I do hope you answer. Thanks!] (]) 17:14, 22 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: Outside of "MEDRS", I don't often see problems with sourcing scientific information. The general policies don't prohibit citing reliable primary sources. They encourage using secondary sources, and I don't have any complaint about using secondary sources also, or using secondary sources even in preference to the primary when there isn't anything particularly important said only by the primary source. (It depends on the field how important it is for readers to see the original primary data - usually though I don't see fundamentalists telling people that, say, they can't link to or include a map of cosmic background radiation because it's a primary result from the satellite, not a review about it) ] (]) 20:22, 22 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I was reading your interchanges on the MEDRS talk page and it became clear to me that people were getting frustrated with you, and that you were getting frustrated too, because you seem to be unaware what ] and ] '''actually say'''. When you write something like what you just did: "I don't have any complaint about using secondary sources also, or using secondary sources even in preference to the primary when there isn't anything particularly important said only by the primary source" -- this flies in the face of what ] and ] actually say. I don't think you know what they actually say, and what is more problematic -- you don't seem to know that you don't know. Which is fine, but when you participate in a discussion on the Talk page for the policy, it is recipe for unhappiness for everybody.] (]) 21:39, 22 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I do not deny that I disagree with MEDRS, especially when it is interpreted to anything ''potentially'' affecting medicine in the future; that was the point of the debate. But PSTS does not deny that you can write what the primary sources say. ] (]) 22:38, 22 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::: but your statement, "I don't have any complaint about using secondary sources also, or using secondary sources even in preference to the primary when there isn't anything particularly important said only by the primary source" flies in the face of ] itself (not just MEDRS), right? Maybe you wrote that casually but it is the kind of thing you wrote many times on the Talk page. PSTS is super clear that secondary sources are the go-to sources, and you can use primary '''only''' as sources for factual statements with no interpretation whatsover (PTSD says this with several bolded '''do not''' statements).... right? ] (]) 02:08, 23 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::: You seem to be saying something said only by the primary source can't be a factual statement. ] (]) 03:05, 23 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::I have no idea what you mean, and I don't think you are trying to communicate. All I can say is that I recommend that you read ] and that you keep it in mind when you edit and talk about policy. Have a great day.] (]) 03:15, 23 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Separate documentation (template:Plotter) == | |||
| : Hey :-) Just saw your ], and your summary. Documentation is made with <nowiki><noinclude>{{Documentation}}</noinclude></nowiki>. After saving, a "create documentation" button appears on the page... ] (]) 19:30, 22 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :: Thanks - it was certainly something I should have known (and have done before) but it was late and I didn't want to work it out again. ] (]) 20:16, 22 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| Hi Wnt, I noticed you've contributed Lua scripts at ] and ]. I just created a request page for Lua scripts at ] and it'd be great if you could watchlist it to assist anyone who needs help with Lua scripts. Thanks! ] 00:58, 24 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| : I'm really quite ignorant about Lua, having heard of it only when the Scribunto plan was announced, but if I happen to think up anything useful I'll see what I can do. Odds when I comment I'll only ''think'' I thought up something useful... :) ] (]) 07:20, 24 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Module:RDindex == | |||
| I fixed this up for you. The script error you were seeing is actually probably a problem in the string module when interpreting UTF8 strings. Using mw.ustring seemed to fix it, though I think I will try to report it later. ] (]) 15:23, 26 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ==] nomination of ]== | |||
| ] | |||
| {{Quote box|quote=<p>If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read ].</p><p>You may want to consider using the ] to help you create articles.</p>|width=20%|align=right}} | |||
| A tag has been placed on ] requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done under ], because the article appears to be about web content, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the ], such articles may be deleted at any time. Please ]. | |||
| If you think that your page should not be deleted for this reason, you may '''contest the nomination''' by ] and clicking the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with ]. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, you can place a request ]. <!-- Template:Db-notability-notice --> <!-- Template:Db-csd-notice-custom --> ] <sup>(])</sup> 22:56, 9 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == References for Topsy == | |||
| Crunchbase isn't considered a reliable independent source, just as LinkedIn and AboutUs aren't. The NYT 'article' is a blog, and the Twitter report is a couple of mentions. Something a bit better would make me remove the tag - as it is, I didn't delete but left the tag in place. ] (]) 11:49, 10 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't take it to be a "blog" in the sense you mean. If you go to the front page http:www.nytimes.com - click TECHNOLOGY in the bolded menu on the left just below the masthead - the next page displays "Gadgetwise>>" over three current articles in this "blog". To all appearances it is an integral part of the newspaper. Techcrunch was considered at and the balance of opinion sounds at least mildly positive. ] (]) 15:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
| I saw your note on Jimbo's page and was about to start editing, but realized they may be competitors for ], where I have a COI. But here are some sources I had found so far: | |||
| *{{cite news|date=October 11, 2011|first=Tomio|last=Geron|title=Topsy Adds Google Plus to Real Time Search Index|url=http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomiogeron/2011/10/11/topsy-adds-google-plus-to-real-time-search-index/|newspaper=Forbes|accessdate=March 10, 2013}} | |||
| *{{cite news|first=Brian|last=Womack|date=January 24, 2013|publisher=Bloomberg|url=http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-01-24/social-media-predicting-stock-moves-spawn-sentiment-firms-tech.html|accessdate=March 10, 2013|title=SocialMedia Predicting Stock Moves Spawn Sentiment}} | |||
| *{{cite news|first=Patrick|last=Hoge|title=Topsy Gets $15M for "Realtime" search|date=March 10, 2011|accessdate=March 10, 2013|url=http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/news/2011/03/10/topsy-gets-15m-for-realtime-search.html}} | |||
| ] (]) 00:55, 11 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Your comments at the Doncram arbitration case == | |||
| Obviously you haven't been around for the last four years of arguing in the Doncram case, where he's been uploading thin stubs and where a number of people have tried to get him to stop. But, since you're coming in at the end and making some observations, and since you appear to be allied with Doncram, maybe you can tell me a few things: | |||
| :1. What year was the ] built? The books and references I consulted said it was built in 1922, but Doncram told me it was likely built earlier. So when was it built? | |||
| :2. Do you agree with Doncram that I'm too stupid to know the difference between an architect and a builder, or that I'm too stupid to know when a building was built? | |||
| :3. Do you agree with Doncram that my edits to Misplaced Pages are basically worthless and that I'm wasting my time here? | |||
| :4. How is the Open Directory Project even remotely related to NRHP stubs? | |||
| I'd like to know what you think, since you appear to have an expert view on the case now. --] <sup>]</sup> 22:14, 11 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :1. I have a hard time following . It looks like you say the database says 1922, and doncram is using only 1922, so if you're saying 1922 is right, what's the dispute? | |||
| :2. In his evidence you say he said your ''code'' didn't know the difference, which is a very different thing, isn't it? | |||
| :3. To be clear, I don't approve of all this nastiness. But you're advocating him to be banned, which is saying his edits are worthless, right? What bothers me is that a fairly symmetric nastiness is leading to one person being banned. | |||
| :4. The project offers historical resources. I am merely suspicious. ] (]) 01:37, 12 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::You didn't answer question 3 properly. I asked if YOU think MY edits are worthless, and if I'M wasting MY time here. Actually, reading between the lines in your answer, I think you'd like to see me banned from the project entirely, so maybe I don't need your answer at this point. Oh, and if you had read the arbitration decision, you'd notice that the proposal to ban Doncram has failed. --] <sup>]</sup> 03:00, 12 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::You're right that the failure of this is more clear at this point than I'd thought. Since you weren't in the line for sanctions, I wasn't speaking of you at all. What I want to see is Misplaced Pages find a way to bring ''peace'' to long-standing conflicts like this, and the number one requirement for peace is to reject deletionism and let editors work side by side building, rather than tearing down each others' work. ] (]) 04:48, 12 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Topsy == | |||
| Hi Wnt, I saw your comments about ] on Jimbo's talk page. It looks like it may be notable and there are definitely sources out there on it. If you like I'll userfy the article so you can work on it further. ] (]) 18:24, 12 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Unit tests == | |||
| I wasn't quite clear from your post on ] if you had seen ], so just in case you haven't, there's a little bit of discussion there. Testing is almost never going to be completely comprehensive, but something is better than nothing, and you can just throw all the individual tests you try out onto one page, and use ] to automatically check if they still work. (It can be used for any template, really.) So it's a nice way to keep checking, as you revise your template or module, that everything still works as before. ] (]) 17:01, 14 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Looking over it again, I suppose I hazily see the point, now that I realize the idea is to have a separate module already written to compare the output, running them all from a template. It doesn't match my intuition because it seems like whenever I get any output but "script error" the trouble is already over with, but perhaps for more sophisticated scripts it is not so easy. ] (]) 18:43, 14 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::If you're can get everything working the first time, and there's no need to ever change the template or module in future, count yourself among the fortunate ;-). Often, though, a template/module gets implemented one bit of functionality at a time (first get something basic working, then add support for a new parameter, etc.), either during its initial development, or later on when someone wants to extend it. With modules, you may decide you want to restructure the code to improve its flexibility, efficiency, reusability, and so forth. In these situations, it's great to have a set of test examples ready to go, or to be able to just add more test cases as you incrementally add more capabilities, available on a subpage of the template/module. Having some infrastructure that automatically checks the output so you don't have to do it manually is a nice timesaver and isn't prone to missing changes that are difficult to see but can still affect the results when they, say, get picked up by another template for further processing. ] (]) 20:06, 14 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Convert number == | |||
| Hi Wnt, I saw , and was wondering if it doesn't make more sense to just <code>local chaff=mw.ustring.match(text,"(%D*)$")</code>, so you don't have to check separately for coming out as failure and emitting an empty string. I'm a complete Lua noob, so this is really a question, not some sort of smartassery on my side. ] (]) 15:20, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I think you're right. I just slapped in a quick fix when I found a script error. ] (]) 15:33, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == String? == | |||
| Isn't this: | |||
| {{Mlx|FindAndReplace|main|find|replace|This function will find things...}} | |||
| {{#invoke:FindAndReplace|main|find|replace|input=This function will find things...}} | |||
| Just the same as: | |||
| {{Mlx|String|replace| This function will find things...|find|replace}} | |||
| {{#invoke:String|replace| This function will find things...|find|replace}} | |||
| Or without the extra space, which leads to preformatting, if you prefer: | |||
| {{Mlx|String|replace|This function will find things...|find|replace}} | |||
| {{#invoke:String|replace|This function will find things...|find|replace}} | |||
| ] (]) 17:16, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Yeah, you're right. The thing is, originally I thought I needed a different function to find-and-replace on a whole page using mw.title.new. But I since realized that I can use a separate ] to get this data, so this one is admittedly looking purposeless by this point. (You jumped ahead, but yeah, this is one of the reasons I was taking inventory...) | |||
| :Though I still don't understand why I'm getting templates substituted with ] and losing their parameters, or if there's any way to avoid that. ] (]) 17:24, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ==You've got mail!== | |||
| {{You've got mail}} ] (]) 20:22, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Note: it looks like my present free email provider is now badly compromised and unavailable, sorry. ] (]) 22:40, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::(I've since configured a new address) ] (]) 23:05, 21 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Thanks== | |||
| ...for noticing my work on ]. And thanks for sticking on WP despite all the raving lunatics sometimes disguised as admins. WP need more editors like you. — ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:11, 21 March 2013 (UTC). | |||
| == A barnstar for you! == | |||
| {| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;" | |||
| |rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ] | |||
| |style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The Technical Barnstar''' | |||
| |- | |||
| |style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Thank you so much for building ]! I really, really appreciate it. ] (]) 14:47, 27 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
| |} | |||
| == Module:NewestAtTop == | |||
| Hi and thank you for ]. I just noticed it. I see it is adding numbers to headings for some reason. Any idea what is causing that? --] (]) 05:18, 14 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :It was just a debug feature - this was written during a discussion on ] and I was just showing it could be done at the time. ] (]) 17:12, 14 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == ] vs. ] == | |||
| Hi. | |||
| I've written to you a long and complex message some time ago, but it got wiped out by unplanned reboot or something similar, and i was too lazy to write the whole thing again, but i think i should. | |||
| i think i mentioned style in the past, and i won't harp on it again. however, i would suggest you peek into the pie-chart function in ] and compare it to your own. | |||
| i think my code is clearer and more readable, and more importantly, more understandable. basically what i do is i calculate, per each slice, at which quadrant it begins, and at which quadrant it ends, and for each slice i loop over the quadrants it resides in, and i draw the part of the slice contained in this quadrant exactly once (this is the "drawSlice()" function. note that it only cares about quadrant and start - it does not care about the end of the slice, because the next slice will start at this angle and hide it). if the slice starts at or before the point the quadrant starts, i just use "background-color". if the slice starts inside the quadrant, i use the mitered border trick. the code ends up pretty readable and elegant, if i say so myself. | |||
| i also create an imagemap poly for _each slice_, (this is in "createSlices()", which also calls the previous function once per each slice per each quadrant) regardless of whether there is "link" defined for it. if there is no link, i use <nowiki>]</nowiki>, so there is a useful tooltip for every slice, regardless whether it's a real link or not (if you use "#" instead of "#noSuchAnchor", i think some or all browsers will jump to top of page on click). | |||
| my original intention was to more or less appropriate your code, but i found it hard to understand. | |||
| one little neat trick i found is with "position:absolute": the location is always (radius, radius), however for Q1 i use "left:radius" and "bottom:radius", for q2 i use right and bottom, for q3 it's right and top, and for q4 it's left and top. it took me a while to get there - but once i did i am pretty happy. | |||
| one thing i found that did not work as i thought it would - even though i did use the "#tag:" notation, it did not really help, and i still have to call frame:preprocess() just like you do. oh well... | |||
| peace - ] (]) 17:33, 16 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :You've made some improvements there - bear in mind that when I first started with the ], I had absolutely no idea how it worked. I rewrote it once just to get it to be somewhat traceable, added the features I wanted, and was satisfied ... but the way of doing things was based largely on the history of it. | |||
| :That said, there are some things you've been doing better in programming - aspects of Lua subroutines I still need to learn - notably, I've been nervous to mess with variables in a subroutine because I'm not quite sure when they're in scope and when they're not. I was under the impression from much earlier tests while I was learning that a local variable res wouldn't be available from AddRes. The result is that I've been passing things solely as parameters and returns, which makes for a straightforward but occasionally contorted way of doing things. ] (]) 17:54, 16 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::the intention of my message was not as "mine is bigger than yours" kind of thing, and i'm sorry if it made this impression. the idea is to discuss different points in order for everyone to learn and progress - just like i learned from you about the need to use frame:preprocess() - if you haven't told me that, god knows how much time i would waste finding it out, and i might have just given up... | |||
| ::regarding scope: lua is pretty similar to javascript (and the mirror image of php, for that matter): an undeclared variable is assumed to be global, and a functional variable is recognized in the internal functions, unless they override it by defining their own "local" with same name. variables are passed "by value" (i.e., if you pass a variable to a function who expect "i", and you modify "i" inside the function, it has no effect on the variable you passed to it), but "tables" are a special case: if you pass a table to a function, and in the function you add or remove values from the table, you are actually modify the original table (however, if you assign a new value to the variable inside the function, the assignment cause them to be "disjoined") maybe a short example is in order: | |||
| <source lang=lua> | |||
| function demo( tab ) -- assume we pass a table to this function | |||
| table.insert( tab, 12 ) -- modify the original table | |||
| tab = nil -- ditto | |||
| tab = { 4, 5, 6, 7 } --[[ create a whole new table and assign it to local variable "tab". | |||
| from this point on, you can't access the original table that was | |||
| passed as parameter to this function, and was somewhat modified in first 2 lines | |||
| ]] | |||
| end | |||
| local x = { abba = 'great group', 1, 2 } | |||
| demo( x ) | |||
| -- now x is { 1, 2, 12 }: it lost 'abba', and gained a new ordered member | |||
| </source> | |||
| ::as to the question of "what makes good code": IMO, the answer is first and foremost good and expressive names for functions and variables, even local ones. | |||
| ::"i" and "j" are fine as short-lived loop variables, and in my module i use "w1,w2,w3,w4" to store border width, but in general, when you have a line that looks like so: <code>local output,lr,lrv,tv,bw1,bw2,bw3,bw4,bd,lrB,bw2B</code>, it is hard for anyone else to get into this code. i can grok "bw1..bw4" as "border width" (and "output" _is_ a good name), but what are <code>lr, lrv, bd, lrbl bw2B</code>? i dare to guess that even if you yourself will want to revisit this code in 6 or 18 months, you'll have some difficulties, and i do believe that i will find it significantly easier to revisit "my" code, not to mention that it will be easier for someone else to get the hang of it and add improvements. | |||
| :: peace - ] (]) 18:45, 16 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Boston marathon == | |||
| I just wanted to note that you're one of the few experienced editors (there are a few other but your name keeps coming up) that are making point-on policy arguments about the various arguments on that talk page. I'm surprised at the pushback to the inclusion of basic front-page news facts by the same editors over and over, many of whom I have worked near, if not with before. I feel like I missed some big memo that went out on our treatment of current-event topics, because editing past breaking-news articles did not go like this. ] (]) 04:05, 19 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Oh, it's been pretty pathological for some time now. It is hard to come up with a believable explanation for why some editors are so hostile to a straightforward coverage of the facts. By this point, I would usually say, you have the right to spend your time doing something more productive instead, producing something copyrighted for which you'll get paid, or at least acknowledged, or at least, not have your work immediately thrown away provided you give it to some corporation until the stars fall from the sky, so it will be valued. I just decided to ...''(honestly, waste my time)''... look over the talk page and argue this one because I'm infuriated by the terrorist(s) (partly for blowing people's legs off, mostly for providing an excuse for conservatives in America to waste more money it doesn't have on security precautions against events less likely than being struck by lightning). I am not particularly hopeful about it. ] (]) 04:14, 19 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have a feeling that some media outlet will notice this (and perhaps the naming) debate on the talk page, and with a few days hindsight, write a scathing article about how backwards wikipedia policies are, echoing all of the things we've been saying the last 12 hours, missing of course that if we followed policies (I'm less pessimistic than you about our past current even topics) as we had in the past, we wouldn't have this issue. Prudence is one thing, but this is something else. ] (]) 04:26, 19 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Script errors with ] == | |||
| If you have a chance, could you take a look the script error I noted at ]? Thanks again for building that module. It's been extremely useful to me and I think it'll be ported to other languages as well along with the training templates.--] (]) 18:19, 24 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Thanks! As noted on the talk page, I made a fix, but it could use a check to make sure I didn't break anything else.--] (]) 15:30, 25 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Reader survey == | |||
| Hi. I have removed the "Suggest a question" option for the time being, thinking it may be a waste of everybody's time if there is no support for the survey. I'll restore it if the community decides to go with the survey. --] (] · ] · ]) 01:25, 2 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Orange bar script no longer cookie-dependent == | |||
| Hey, Wnt, just wanted to let you know that I made a major update to the OBoD script; it no longer relies on cookies. You mentioned that was a concern for you, so if you're still interested, give it a shot and let me know if it starts working for you. It's still at ]. Thanks! ] ]] 18:16, 3 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Abortion articles == | |||
| As you probably already know, abortion-related articles are subject to general sanctions, including 1RR. You haven't violated it, and your editing has been totally fine. I'm not accusing you of edit-warring or anything improper - all I see so far is a standard ] approach - but I just want to make sure you're aware of that restriction. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 21:49, 3 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Boston Marathon and possible sabotaging of Misplaced Pages == | |||
| Hi, Wnt. In the earlier section on the Boston Marathon, you wrote: "It is hard to come up with a believable explanation for why some editors are so hostile to a straightforward coverage of the facts." Were you saying that ironically? Because a simple explanation (and a believable one, at least to me) would be that Misplaced Pages is a relatively trustworthy news outlet, and therefore a threat to the profitability of other news outlets, who therefore have a financial interest in sabotaging Misplaced Pages's reporting of news stories in general, and big news stories in particular. Such sabotage is fairly easy to achieve by putting an editor or two of yours to work on the Misplaced Pages article, and anybody who expresses any suspicions about your editor can then be barred for violating rules such as ], etc... But I can't be sure that's the case because your contributions to the Boston Marathon Bombings articles are now hidden away in one or more of many archives, so I don't really know what I'm talking about. But I'd appreciate if you could let me know whether you think my speculation makes any sense in the light of your experience.<br><br> | |||
| Also, would you happen to know whether reducing the number of internal links within Misplaced Pages (on the theory that there is some terrible scourge called overlinking which needs to be combatted regardless of how irritating reducing links can be to readers) can lower the linked-to article's ranking in search engines, which might be another way of sabotaging Misplaced Pages? Even if it doesn't affect the search engine ranking, getting readers irritated when reading Misplaced Pages articles is presumably useful if somebody wants to sabotage Misplaced Pages. I note there was a recent attempt to further outlaw 'overlinking' by inserting a new rule banning multiple links from areas where they were previously allowed, such as tables, with no attempt to achieve consensus for the change despite the ruling that that page should not be changed without consensus (this eventually allowed other editors to revert the change). Regards. ] (]) 15:21, 10 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Your idea about the Boston Marathon had crossed my mind, but it rarely works out for the best to accuse a group of unknown editors as being part of some massive conspiracy based solely on it being the first idea that comes to mind. Just because I have trouble ''imagining'' another explanation doesn't mean that there isn't one. Failure to recognize the limits of our imagination is absolutely central in the origins of most unpleasantness on Misplaced Pages (more commonly when an editor derides well-researched content as 'cruft' and deletes it because he can't imagine a use for it). In a sense it is irrelevant - what we need are better principles, like that we should not have to pause and figure out whether it is ''ethical'' to disseminate a wanted poster from the FBI. We just have many too many 'ethics'; the ethics we need is that we're here to share reliably sourced data. ] (]) 17:12, 10 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::(Note: as this is rather long, please feel free not to read it if you feel you don't have the time)<br><br> | |||
| ::I don't agree that 'it is irrelevant'. We either do or do not think we have 'adequate' (whatever that means) evidence (NOT proof) of Misplaced Pages being damaged by commercial vested interests yet again for the zillionth time (for instance, via the spamming links that you complain about), but in this case in an apparently new way (at least judging by Shadowjams' comment that this particular kind of problem did not occur in the past). What should be done about it depends on the answer to the 'either/or' in the previous sentence. But what should be done would NOT involve you or me specifically accusing any specific editors of anything, let alone being part of a 'massive conspiracy'. To take the 'massive conspiracy' bit first - even if the plan really was to sabotage Misplaced Pages in the way I described, this need not involve anything 'massive', nor would it legally be a conspiracy (and perhaps not morally either) since they wouldn't be planning to do anything illegal. At worst it would be something mildly immoral and/or mildly unethical, and even that could be disputed on the basis that they are arguably morally entitled to do that sort of thing to defend their ability to earn a living, and/or to protect the job security of their employees, etc. Indeed some might even argue that it would be an immoral dereliction of their duty to their shareholders and /or to their ] (such as their employees, and the dependants of those employees) to fail to try to sabotage Misplaced Pages in this way. As for making specific accusations without proof against specific editors, this would arguably be pointless and immoral and stupid and conterproductive, etc.<br><br> | |||
| ::But that doesn't necessarily mean it would be right to simply do nothing either (arguably that could be a dereliction of whatever moral duty we as Wikipedians may (or may not) have to Misplaced Pages's millions of stakeholders), at least assuming we do think we have 'adequate' evidence (not proof) that such sabotage was going on.Assuming we did think we had such 'adequate' evidence, I expect the right thing to do would be to bring this possible (but unproven and hard-to-prove) problem to the attention of the 'appropriate authorities' in Misplaced Pages and let them decide what, if anything, they should do about it. I think that leaves only the following questions:<br><br> | |||
| ::1) Do we think we have such 'adequate' evidence? (You and/or Shadowjams can answer that a lot better than I can, so I'll be letting Shadowjams know about this discussion) | |||
| ::2) If the answer to (1) is yes, then what are the 'appropriate authorities' in this case? (Presumably either Jimbo Wales, and/or some admin(s), and/or some committee(s), and/or some discussion forum(s)). | |||
| ::3) If the answer to (1) is yes and the 'appropriate authorities' have been identified, then who writes the post(s) to bring the matter to their attention? (Presumably you and/or Shadowjams and/or me). At least that's how I see the matter, though I could of course be completely wrong. ] (]) 11:15, 11 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Actually, I think that there are severe problems with overlinking, but I don't know what tables have to do with it. The main problem is that we don't have anybody doing anything to upgrade the category system to make it pretty, flexible, usable; and so everyone is making massive navboxes with a hundred links spammed to each of a hundred articles; but as a result you go and web search any two terms vaguely related to something like a movie or software franchise, and ''every single article'' out of those hundred will come up as a result, with no easy way to get at the intersection of terms ''in the text'' rather than ''in the navbox''. That may be SEO, and it may be designed to pump up these commercial products, but mostly, we're stealing the SEO from ourselves and seriously annoying people. ] (]) 17:12, 10 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::(Note: as this is rather long, please feel free not to read it if you feel you don't have the time)<br><br> | |||
| ::Perhaps you should bring that to the attention of 'appropriate authorities' (whoever they might be) in Misplaced Pages, if you have not already done so. But I was talking about a very different kind of alleged overlinking, and my apologies, as I should perhaps have spelt that out more clearly. Take a seemingly non-commercial example. If we have an article on Relativity, and Galileo appears in it twice, and Einstein appears in it 50 times, our current rules against 'overlinking' say we should normally link to Einstein at most twice, and possibly just once. I have already pointed out to Jimbo Wales that this discriminates against those with poor eyesight who will find it harder than the rest of us to spot the one or two links to Einstein. I also decided to mention this might conceivably get Misplaced Pages sued for discrimination against the disabled. In fact I neither knew nor much cared whether it actually could get Misplaced Pages sued or not, as I mostly said it on the basis that, rightly or wrongly, I tend to suspect that mentioning it just might make the powers that be a bit more likely to pay attention :) <br><br> | |||
| ::But what I actually care rather more about is that this rule can irritate millions of readers of Misplaced Pages (with or without poor eyesight) zillions of times, by unnecessarily wasting their time on looking for links or having to unnecessarily type 'Einstein' into a Search or Find box. As I know from painful experience, it can also irritate or seriously annoy editors who find themselves in unnecessary and deeply confusing disputes as a result. And I can't see any benefits from this rule that might justify all that annoyance. And, (though I don't know whether the following last two speculations are ever significant problems in practice), it might also result in no links to the Einstein article, after the section with the single link gets edited or transfered to a sub-article, etc, and in some cases I can half-imagine it somehow causing search engines to treat Galileo as being as important to Relativity as Einstein is.<br><br> | |||
| ::Because the rule's page can only be changed by consensus, I see no possibility of changing it by going through 'normal channels' (as distinct from by convincing people like Jimbo Wales that it harms Misplaced Pages, which I honestly think it does). I remain amazed that a consensus was ever reached on imposing such a rule, though it would not surprise me if it was cleverly sneaked in without consensus (just like the recent (unsuccessful) attempt to extend the rule to areas like tables (where it currently doesn't apply) appears to have been an attempt to sneak in a change without consensus).<br><br> | |||
| ::To somebody who is a servant of some enemy of Misplaced Pages, such as a commercial encyclopedia, the damage done to Misplaced Pages by the increased irritation and annoyance probably fully justifies creating and/or defending the rule. But having come across ] via your User page (which I visited following your comments on ]), and having come across what looked like possible evidence of commercial sabotage of our reporting of the Boston Marathon Bombing ] on your Talk page, it occured to me that causing annoyance might not be the only benefit of the rule for those wishing to harm Misplaced Pages. Depending on precisely how search engines work, particularly Google, it occurred to me that the rule might tend to reduce the ranking Google would give (in the above example) to Misplaced Pages's Einstein article by getting rid of anything up to 49 links to that article (Google ranks articles according to the number of links to them). In this case the beneficiaries would be commercial encyclopedias whose Einstein article might rise above Misplaced Pages's. In other cases the beneficiaries could be any other kind of commercial publication for whom Wikpedia is a dangerous rival.<br><br> | |||
| ::But I don't know whether removing these 49 links actually affects the ranking at all, because Google might conceivably only count one Einstein link per page (perhaps as some sort of anti-spam measure), or Google might not even see our internal links as links at all (because they don't include 'http://'). As your user page seems to say that you've been carrying out various experiments with links while researching SEO, I thought you might perhaps be able to tell me whether removing those 49 links would disimprove the Einstein article's Google ranking or not. ] (]) 11:15, 11 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::The last time I fooled around with links it didn't have an obvious effect right away, but I can't claim to have investigated it very well. I am not an expert in Googleology (and I know there are many people out there who are) but my guess is that somebody in their company actually sees reports of what fraction of their search results lead to Misplaced Pages and would be in a position to compensate for changes that result from https, overlinking, etc. I think it would be far more plausible for someone linked with a company to find a way to "SEO" that company's article in particular. ] (]) 11:54, 11 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Thanks, Wnt. Actually I don't think that's what I'd be advising if I worked for a commercial Encyclopedia that saw Misplaced Pages as a dangerous competitor, but I think I've basically said that already so I guess there's not much point in repeating myself ad nauseam. Thanks again. ] (]) 09:18, 12 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'm commenting because Tlhslobus linked me here, and I'd commented on the Jimbo thread referenced above. Tlhslobus raises a few points interesting points. First, I don't for a second think there's a conspiracy. I know many of the editors (through wikipedia) that were involved, and with whom I disagreed, and I don't for a minute think their motives are anything but honest, no matter if I disagree with their edits. You bring up the linking issue, and I think you're confounding external links with internal links, but nevertheless, I've been involved with the disambiguation project here, and one of the brilliant parts of our ] policy is that we restrict links (one per entry). I started to realize how many websites overlink, and that begins to seriously hamper navigation. Maybe not exactly the issue you were talking about, but you at least glance it. | |||
| ::::I think you maybe have some misconceptions about some of the Misplaced Pages governance structure Tlhslobus. Jimbo's position can be nicely analogized to that of the ]. He has sway, he has some legal and technical powers that (to my knowledge) have never been used in a monumental way, but other than that, he's just another admin. There are some serious problems with paid editing, something ] has been vocal about, among others. But I don't think this is one of those situations. ] (]) 20:49, 11 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Thanks, Shadowjams. Just two things that I'm not too clear about, and provided you don't feel I'm wasting too much of your time, I'd appreciate it if you could offer me some clarification.<br><br> | |||
| :::::1) What exactly did you mean when you wrote "I think you're confounding external links with internal links". In particular, are you perhaps saying that Google ignores internal links (such as writing ] instead of Einstein in other Misplaced Pages articles) when ranking Misplaced Pages's Einstein article? And, if so, how confident are you about that, and do you by any chance happen to know of any reasonably reliable source for it? Or are you perhaps saying something completely different?<br><br> | |||
| :::::2) What exactly did you mean when you wrote "and that begins to seriously hamper navigation". In particular, are you perhaps saying that allowing ] instead of Einstein more than once (or sometimes twice) in a Misplaced Pages article eventually seriously slows down the system? And, if so, how confident are you about that, and do you by any chance happen to know of any reasonably reliable source for it? (Please note that this is the only kind of alleged overlinking to whose banning I have been objecting.) Or are you perhaps saying something completely different? ] (]) 08:37, 12 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::As long as you're arguing this here, I should just say that overlinking isn't an issue that seems very important to me. I understand that having a link for every word would strain the current system, because | |||
| ::::::* readers look for the blue links as a quick indication of subtopics to explore, and if you have extras it is much harder for them to go through them all | |||
| ::::::* it would be less readable in edit mode | |||
| ::::::* formatting all those links makes the page larger to download and process. | |||
| ::::::But I really don't mind if there's an extra link or two or three if the article is really long or has a complicated structure. I should note in particular that I think of the big custom navboxes as a spammy plague on Misplaced Pages, so I think that if they are allowed to use a second instance of a wikilink that has already been made in the article text, then any table or figure with a ''legitimate'' purpose should certainly have more right to. ] (]) 16:40, 12 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Thanks, Wnt. I'm rapidly losing interest in the topic myself because it's taking up too much time for me and others, seemingly with almost no chance of achieving anything worthwhile. Still, I will just mention that I find the first of your points very important, but it could seemingly be solved by having first links in blue as at present, and repeated links in, for instance, green (for the price of at worst a day or two of computer programming, and quite likely it only involves changing a single already existing line of code to say green instead of blue). A possible variant would be to give the reader the option of showing repeated links in green, along with an explanatory text on why he or she might want to do this. And because there are already many repeated links in existing articles, this seems, at least to me, to be a programming change worth making even if we don't change our existing Overlinking rules. Do you by any chance happen to know offhand where one can suggest such programming changes (don't worry, if you don't know, I can probably look it up somewhere), and do you expect it would just be a further waste of time to suggest such a change (in any of the variants that I've mentioned, and/or in others that you might think of yourself)? At least to me, readability in edit mode seems much less important because it is at worst a slight inconvenience for us Wikipedians (editors), whereas missing 'green' links is an inconvenience for the readers whom we Wikipedians are supposed to be trying to serve. Obviously I can't be 100% sure, but I expect that, if programmed efficiently (as it probably already is, given how many repeated links there already are), the extra processing time for the repeated links would be pretty negligable, and 'between very probably and almost certainly' so small as to be incapable of being noticed by readers. (I also note that, at least as far as I can see, neither readability in edit mode nor saving processing time seem to be mentioned at ] as a justification for our rules against repeated links).Thanks again, and all the best. ] (]) 03:21, 15 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::It would be possible, say with a Lua script to generate a delinked version of a fully linked page. I could write such a thing but the problem is that nobody would want to update pages with all those links. ] (]) 03:40, 15 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I don't understand. Firstly, I didn't mention writing a delinked version of anything. I suggested changing (or optionally changing) the colour of repeated links (of which there are already millions) from blue (as at present) to green. In principle this is no different from the way the program already presents some internal links in blue (those whose article already exists) and others in red (those whose article doen't yet exist), and probably just involves a one line change to whatever program currently colours those links red and blue to add (or optionally add) a third colour, green. The main advantage of the suggested programming change, as already mentioned, would be for displaying our existing repeated links, specifically in line with your own excellent point that blue links should give the reader 'a quick indication of subtopics to explore'.<br><br> | |||
| :::::::::Secondly, I can't see why 'nobody would want to update pages with all those links'. What links? In the first place, there would be no extra links unless our rules against Overlinking get changed, which I would like to see, but which seems extremely unlikely to happen in practice, whereas, as already mentioned, I think the suggested programming change would be mainly useful for displaying our existing repeated links, for the reason that you brought up. But even supposing the Overlinking rules did change, I think it highly unlikely that it would stop anybody updating anything. The vast majority of extra links would simply be changing Einstein to ] by adding 4 square brackets, which has minimal effect on the readability of edit mode, especially compared to the effect on edit-mode readability of highly complex links such as citations (of which we are rightly obliged to have many). The millions of existing repeated links do not seem to have resulted in 'nobody updating pages' (if they did, Misplaced Pages would not exist). And if necessary, any hypothetical changes to Overlinking rules could still place restrictions on how many repeated links one could have and how complicated they could be, even though such links are almost never much more complicated than 'Albert Einstin|Einstein' between 4 square brackets. But in any case, as already mentioned, there almost certainly won't be any change to Overlinking rules, and therefore there won't be any extra links, and thus nobody will be deterred from updating pages as a result of extra links.<br><br> | |||
| :::::::::However, I take it that your response means you don't think my suggestion is worth pursuing, so I don't think it's worth wasting any more of your time on the subject. Thanks for your time, and all the best. ] (]) 04:48, 15 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Actually, I thought you were talking about adding more over what we have now. Your idea as you clarify it is interesting... it might even be doable with a custom .js file. I'm not sure how long it would take to search for duplicate links each time a page is viewed, though (my guess is that it might be OK though). ] (]) 16:39, 15 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Thanks, Wnt. I simply have no idea what you mean when you talk about 'doing it with a custom .js file', so perhaps I'm missing a bureaucratically much simpler and quicker solution. But with that caveat, the position as I see it is as follows: Provided one is modifying the existing program (the one that decides whether to show a link as red or blue), and provided that program is not surprisingly inefficient, it shouldn't take any noticeable time at all to 'search for duplicate links each time a page is viewed', because the program should in effect already be doing that search, and if by any chance it isn't doing it already, then amending it to do so will not slow the program down, it will speed it up. The point is that when a new internal link is encountered, the program has to check whether the article already exists on Misplaced Pages to decide whether to show it red or blue (and seemingly it does this each time the page is loaded, to avoid missing the latest new articles - as I think I've noticed whenever I create a re-direct 'article'). The first time this check is done for a particular link, this requires a database call, which is slow because such calls ultimately work at the speed of rotating disks (though no doubt there's a certain amount of buffering of data in high-speed memory to speed things up a little). But there should be no need for a second such slow database call for a repeated link because the program can check whether that link already exists in an internal table (created within the program) that stores the result of the first database call. Looking up such internal tables should be fast because such internal table look-ups operate at the speed of electrons, which is normally a significant fraction of the speed of light. So if the program is efficient it will already be looking up such an internal table to avoid unnecessary duplicate database calls, and all that should be needed is a one-line change in the table look-up code to change the colour from blue to green for repeat links (or to optionally do so based on some 'reader preferences' setting, or cookie, or whatever). If the program currently has no such internal table look-ups, then modifying it to include them should speed it up.<br><br> | |||
| But either way this would seem to require a (small) modification to a core Misplaced Pages program, and that presumably (and quite rightly) ultimately requires going through some kind of very formal program modification request procedure, though the first stage is likely to be a rather simpler (but still possibly rather time-consuming) one of putting a suggestion (plus justification) into some kind of 'official suggestion box'. So if I do in fact want to proceed (I'm not yet sure it will be worth the effort), or if you want to proceed (after all, it's as much your idea as mine), it seems to me that the first step would be to find out where that 'official suggestion box' is. Do you by any chance happen to know where it might be?<br><br> | |||
| Or at least that's how I see the position. But then, as I already said, I simply have no idea what you mean when you talk about 'doing it with a custom .js file', so perhaps I'm missing a much simpler and quicker solution (at least in the sense of fewer bureaucratic hoops to jump through, etc). ] (]) 07:04, 16 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :See ] and especially ], and ] is the place to propose. ] (]) 13:41, 16 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Primary sources in medicine, I partially agree with. == | |||
| Hi, I barely noticed your edit to , and I agree with a lot of it. I also noticed the proposal on the talk page, but I was fine with leaving that part alone. Primary sources are discouraged by many editors (but are allowed by Misplaced Pages) when they are very important, up-to-date, and reliable, especially when no other sources exist. I will leave a comment on that page, even though it is late. - ]] <sup>]</sup> 19:30, 19 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Mother's Day Parade shooting == | |||
| The article was deleted, but I asked for it to be userfied, and a copy of it is in my userspace ]. You are welcome to edit/update it. ] (]) 07:47, 23 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Pseudonymity == | |||
| You may be interested in some of the discussions I'm having, or the arguments I've put forth at User talk pages of {{u|Anthonyhcole}} and {{u|John lilburne}} regarding the pseudonymity discussion on Wales' talk page. -- <span style="font-family:monospace"> ] ~/] ] # <span style="background-color:black">_</span> </span> 00:31, 27 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Module:TrainingPages request == | |||
| Hi again! I have a new request for improving Module:TrainingPages, if you're up for it. ].--] (]) 16:40, 6 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ==Broken post== | |||
| Hi Wnt, with you have actually broken to initial posting of Pldx1, the upper part of which is now orphaned. Recommend to correct this. --] (]) 22:17, 21 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Looks like someone fixed it before I looked at it, but thanks. ] (]) 04:23, 22 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == New messages == | |||
| {{talkback|Misplaced Pages talk:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2013-06-19/Op-ed#Contentious images}} | |||
| {{talkback|Misplaced Pages talk:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2013-06-19/Op-ed#Contentious images}} | |||
| == Neutron star and tiny black holes within == | |||
| Thanks for your answers to my question. I put a in a reply with further questions just now.] (]) 09:46, 23 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Ammonites in WP == | |||
| Greetings, ]! I hope you don't mind that in the current ] thread, I corrected your original link <nowiki>]s </nowiki> to the piped link <nowiki>]</nowiki>. Thank you for participating on the RefDesk. ''-- Cheers, ] (]) 14:15, 23 June 2013 (UTC)'' | |||
| == Colgate == | |||
| I hope you were referring to the OP and not me with this comment. | |||
| I was saying that it would be nearly impossible to make a trademark claim on such a use. ] (]) 17:49, 3 July 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :That's true. I didn't think it was overly confusing ... my comment is directed at whosoever would remove the photo from Commons to protect a brand name, and only them. ] (]) 21:36, 3 July 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Module:redirect == | |||
| very nice. I have suggested that it could be used with ], but at first, we probably would just want an 'ifredirect' function add a tracking category (see ]). ] (]) 16:53, 13 July 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Kopex == | |||
| Please check back at WP:AN. Someone who speaks Polish is willing to help, but he's got limited online time (and thus can't investigate the situation himself), so it would help if you'd suggest what he should say and to whom he shoulds ay it. ] (]) 17:10, 14 July 2013 (UTC) | |||
| : Heh, I don't ''know'' that much - I was only pointing out that the guy probably owns the content and is editing about his own company like he has on pl.wikipedia ... how the admins choose to follow up on that is not up to me. But it won't hurt to look... ] (]) 21:34, 14 July 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == TARDquote template == | |||
| Hope you didn't mind me changing your {{tl|tardquote}} template, but I just couldn't resist... :-) ] (]) 10:47, 18 July 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Thanks! I seldom have a use for left:(x)em spacing and here where it was the logical thing to do I just forgot about it. ] (]) 14:02, 18 July 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::It's an interesting exercise in CSS. The problem with my method is that you have to set a fixed left offset in em, whereas it should be based on the actual widths of the characters, which vary a bit according to the font. I don't know any way of accessing the widths in CSS. ] (]) 14:51, 18 July 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::Come to think of it, instead of a nonbreaking space maybe I should have used a display:none copy of the same first character with font-size at 50%... | |||
| :::i.e. <span style="position:absolute;"><span style="display:none;font-size:50%;">"</span>.</span>" ... but that doesn't look as well tuned on my monitor as your solution, theory or no. ] (]) 15:33, 18 July 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ==Invitation to join a discussion== | |||
| Through this way, I inform there is a discussion about partially disambiguated titles, known as "]". This subguide of ] was approved at ], in a discussion you participated. Note there was a discussion of PDAB at WT:D the last weeks (everything is explained in the RFC). You are welcome to give ideas about the future of this guideline at ]. ].<sup>]</sup> Grammatically incorrect? '''Correct it!''' ] 05:34, 24 July 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == A barnstar for you! == | |||
| {| style="border: 1px solid #999999; background-color: #FFFFFF}; width:100%;" | |||
| |rowspan="2" valign="middle" | {{#ifeq:{{{2}}}|alt|]|]}} | |||
| |rowspan="2" | | |||
| |style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em; color:#9D741A; font-family:Comic Sans MS, Arial, Helvetica;" | '''The Socratic Barnstar''' | |||
| |- | |||
| |style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | For your brilliant You give me hope we will not die in a hole of moral panic. Thanks. --''''' ]'''''] 15:56, 31 July 2013 (UTC) | |||
| |} | |||
| :And again, . I am personally quite neutral on the silly Russavia mess, but the core of your comment is excellently spot on. --''''' ]'''''] 15:10, 15 August 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ==Disambiguation link notification for August 7== | |||
| Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Misplaced Pages appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited ], you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page ] (] | ]). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. <small>Read the ]{{*}} Join us at the ].</small> | |||
| It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these ]. Thanks, ] (]) 11:12, 7 August 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| You didn't see the problems with those two questions? Either one of them alone would have been OK or if the second was asked some time after the first. However, saying "'''If''' I cut the wings" followed by "'''when''' a butterflies wings are cut off" indicates that they already know the answer to the first question. Looks a lot like trolling. ] (]) 06:12, 17 August 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I assume it's a little kid. My priority on the Refdesk is to come up with an answer, not to evaluate the questioner. ] (]) 19:04, 17 August 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Pvt. Manning move vote == | |||
| Just an FYI, I was reading through people's votes and you wrote "oppose", but your vote seems to indicate that you actually "support". The vote concerns a move back to Bradley Manning, not a move to Chelsea Manning. ] (]) 19:36, 23 August 2013 (UTC) | |||
| : No, that's right. As I said, it was premature to move it to the new title, but I want to see how this plays out a bit before I support moving it back. (There needs to be a little bit of "friction" built into the system or borderline articles would never stop moving back and forth) ] (]) 22:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Excercise? == | |||
| Link template?--<span style="">] <span style="font-size:70%; vertical-align:sub;">]|]</span></span> 00:41, 25 August 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm afraid I don't understand what you're talking about at all. ] (]) 06:15, 25 August 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Organized Crime == | |||
| Hi, Wnt, I tried to answer some of your questions on the RD Humanities. Cheers, ] (]) 01:39, 4 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| : I saw, and thanks... still, to be honest, without seeing more source detail, I'm not sure how much confidence to have in your answers. ] (]) 01:50, 4 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Ok for starters, read the wikipedia articles I linked. Then you can check these books: Pistone, Joseph, "Donnie Brasco" (1988), Raab, Selwyn, "The Five Families" (2006). ] (]) 03:18, 4 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == inre ] == | |||
| I have determined through some research that the concept of a "Pixar Universe" preceded the Negroni thesis by a decade, so I created ] as means of dealing with it. Upon further reflection, perhaps best that I fold my little sourced article into the main topic ] so we'd have a suitable redirect target for ]? Think it worth doing? ''']''' '']'' 22:15, 7 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| : In-universe commentary about specific films should be primarily with those films, but to whatever degree that there is evidence that the company pursued a single consistent vision throughout its productions, it would be worth mentioning there, yes. I wouldn't put much emphasis on it because my feeling is that it isn't that hard to bring films from a genre into a single story - for example, my assumption at least is that ''Alien'' and ''Predator'' (or ''Nightmare on Elm Street'' and ''Friday the 13th'') were first written as independent stories, but one need do little more than introduce the characters to one another to create a ]. (hmmm... that's a redlink? There's some work for someone who's interested...) ] (]) 02:02, 8 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Comments at active RFAR case == | |||
| I have your original comments from the Manning case main to the talk page; the edit that moved it onto the talk page is . As your comment isn't exactly an evidence, I didn't move that there. For future reference, once a RfAr case has begun, no more statements are allowed on the main page; it should go on other pages where applicable. - ] | <sup>] and ]</sup> 00:47, 17 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I hadn't realized it was begun. ] (]) 00:51, 17 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::It began when it got its own subpage. ^^; - ] | <sup>] and ]</sup> 02:26, 17 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Glad I could help == | |||
| I'm glad that Sluzzelin and I could help with your question about surgery and gender identity disorder. A lot of people have huge misconceptions about things like what it means to be trans, gender dysphoria and the process of transitioning, and don't have a problem expressing their opinions on it as fact even though they've never researched the issue or tried asking a trans person or someone with experience in trans issues about it. It feel great to see that although you started out with a pretty big misunderstanding of the motives behind SRS we were able to explain things in a way that helped you better understand the reality of it. A lot of trans people (including me) love talking about this sort of stuff with people who show a genuine interest in understanding us and the issues involved. If you ever have other questions on transexuality feel free to leave me a note on my talk page. I can speak from experience or recommend resources designed to help non-trans people better understand us. ] (]) 13:37, 18 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Well, the Manning case has been an eye-opener for all of us. Little disputes like what pronoun to use in a history paragraph open up larger and larger questions about our underlying assumptions, from the nature of gender to the social basis of health care funding to, in this case, the ethical standards of physicians. I have a sense that every speck of dust contains the entire universe, but in this case this is more apparent than usual. ] (]) 15:24, 18 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Really awesome post == | |||
| I am in awe of your post at ]. You explained the issue comprehensively with a sensitive sympathetic touch. Very well done! ] (]) 12:18, 3 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Unless the person who asked the question actually comes back and is successfully able to get involved here, these congratulations are premature, but thanks. ] (]) 15:33, 3 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ==]== | |||
| Greetings. Because you participated in the ] regarding this subject, you may be interested in participating in the ]. This notice is provided pursuant to ]. Cheers! ] ] 21:39, 4 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ==Speaker of the House discussion== | |||
| '''Warning''', it has been a few days & your ] response was appreciated but has its own potential Ref Desk violations & the original concern about "suicide" that "we all can dream" & references to terror attacks against a political figure remain (thou acknowledged as "most uncharitable"). | |||
| Please strike or remove the offending material per ], specifically: | |||
| {{Collapse|1= | |||
| *The Misplaced Pages reference desk works like a library reference desk. In a library, users consult the professional staff at the reference desk for help in finding information . . . The reference desk process helps the growth and refinement of Misplaced Pages by identifying areas that may need improvement. If an article that could answer a question is lacking the relevant information, look for a way to work the information into the article. This provides a lasting value to the project. | |||
| *The reference desk is not a chatroom, nor is it a soapbox for promoting individual opinions. Editors should strive to accurately and fairly represent significant views published by reliable sources . . . responses must not intentionally skew answers to reflect only one side of a material dispute. | |||
| *The reference desk is not a place to debate controversial subjects. Respondents should direct questioners to relevant information and discussions, but should refrain from participating in any extended, heated debate. . . answers must be verifiable, that is, to the extent the questioner wishes to verify that the answer is not fabricated, there should exist a reliable source (or sources) that would give the same answer. Personal opinions in answers should be limited to what is absolutely necessary, and avoided entirely when it gets in the way of factual answers. In particular, when a question asks about a controversial topic, we should attempt to provide purely factual answers. This helps prevent the thread from becoming a debate. | |||
| *We understand that some responses about very controversial subjects, or any discussion of what some may consider "taboo" subjects, are more likely to offend some people than discussion of other subjects. This is unavoidable. Responses are not deemed to be inappropriate as long as they are relevant to the question. '''However, we take special care to treat potentially offensive subjects with sensitivity, diligence, and rigor. Further, we never set out deliberately to offend, and we endeavor to quickly remove needlessly offensive material in questions or responses.''' | |||
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| Thank you. ] 12:23, 6 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :The whole point of my question was to check if there was a contingency plan to avoid default during unlikely but not impossible circumstances. It was no doubt useless to explain a comment (when does that ever satisfy anyone?) but your lengthy objections to various people in the discussion are the main disruption to any information to be had from it. ] (]) 13:45, 6 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::You have stated that before, yet with false soapbox in both your question & follow-up. Thou that is a concern, the request for striking or removing is focused on "suicide", terrorism & "we all can dream". I've not "disrupt any information" with other answers, thou I can see your point that some contributions have devolved into a debate, your question was loaded from the beginning. I'll be happy to entertain your concerns on each of my responses if you wish after a reasonable resolution to "suicide" etc., I stand behind my contributions partly because they could never be construed as "dream" "suicide" on others. Thank you in advance for taking my sincere effort to resolve this seriously. | |||
| ::You have an opportunity to remove or strike the unnecessary hyperbole from the original question. Anything less would condone those terms in future queries.] 14:56, 6 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::You seem interested in drumming up some kind of objection. I may have digressed slightly after your first comment about how I asked the question, but whatever you're doing here is far more voluminous. I see nothing useful to be accomplished with this discussion. ] (]) 23:48, 6 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::I should note that although your deletion of some of the above seems overwrought (and I don't get why you left the other boxed content I wasn't involved with) I'm not interested in edit warring to keep in irrelevancies. To avoid any confusion from your comments above, I should note here how the section stood as I left it in case anybody cares. . ] (]) 00:19, 7 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
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| == Lung bacteriotherapy == | |||
| Thank you for your kind words; and for all of your help with that lung bacteriotherapy idea. I would very much be interested in sharing notes; though I will be extra busy for the next couple of days. That's a very interesting article from nature, I found an article on nano particles getting stuck in the lungs and inducing pulmonary fibrosis. <sup> </sup> I'm curious whether the iron eating bacteria slowly degrading the titanic's hull might be useful for this; or any of the bacteria eating sunken military vehicles and their munitions. I'm not sure how many sunken locomotives there are in the world; but this ship was transporting one along with plane parts, battle tanks and motorcycles. Thanks again. ] (]) 19:29, 22 November 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Interesting. I have to admit, I had no idea ] was even possible. I would have assumed that the iron particles would be ingested by ]s, which would secrete ] and oxidize and get rid of it. Except, as your reference points out, iron oxide particles don't actually go away. Note though that the enzyme you'd need is therefore not one that reacts with iron, but one which ... does something ... with iron oxide. (I don't think you can just dock a molecule of ] up to a piece of iron oxide and grab a few atoms) You might find a page like interesting, both as a source of information, and perhaps as a place to share your ideas. (The one I link there describes bacteria that ''reduce'' iron; if the particles in the lungs are iron oxide, then this is a way to do ''something'' to the iron, but how to link that to some other reaction to pull out an iron atom and take it away is another question!) ] (]) 21:08, 22 November 2013 (UTC) | |||
| This is along the same line as the sunken ship bacteria; but even if this doesn't apply to lung bacteriotherapy; it's still an issue. The wikipedia pages for ] and the ] articles make no mention of micro organisms. There are certain fungal molds that develop in space stations than can produce an acid that eats through steel and plastics; needed so it can digest those materials. I know straight dope isn't the best of sources however they mention an outbreak on the space station on ] and the species have some amazing properties. (]) 19:44, 25 November 2013 (UTC) | |||
| I changed the page for MIR and the ISS. Here is another reference about microbial degredation along the same line; it's about microbial degredation of museum pieces; I didn't think yeast degraded bronze. I've also been adding a lot of references to microbial degredation of temple stone surfaces. Also if other micro organisms such as mold and yeast can be used for this, I think the name of the page would be lung micro organism therapy; with lung bacteriotherapy being one type of micro organism therapy, which seems to be the type with the most references. I can find no instances of yeast or algae being used for lung disorders. ] (]) 18:36, 26 November 2013 (UTC) I hope you don't mind, I added the references you found to the pages for iron oxide and diatomaceous_earth; I gave you the credit in the edit summaries. ] (]) 16:53, 29 November 2013 (UTC) Also it appears that there is a fungus which can consume the black carbon in soot; though it says this normally takes a century. | |||
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| == ] == | |||
| Mentioned there. ] (]) 19:23, 13 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| =="put the financial information to know how much trouble WMF is really having"== | |||
| Trouble? The Foundation is in a very healthy financial position indeed. Support was nearly $50 million last year (compared to $5 million in 2007/2008), $10 million of which weren't spent. Net assets were $45 million at the end of June 2013, compared to $5 million at the end of June 2008 five years ago. For data, see https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikimedia_foundation#Finances and page 3 of http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/6/6e/FINAL_12_13From_KPMG.pdf | |||
| So when Jimbo says, "One thing we have learned is that putting financial information there is not an effective strategy.", what he means is they know it reduces donations when they tell people that the Foundation has tens of millions of dollars of unspent donations in reserve. People will give more money if they think that Misplaced Pages is about to go down for lack of funds, which many people have said is the impression the banner gives them. Cheers, ] <small><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>]</small> 11:52, 14 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == WP:ARE notice == | |||
| ] There is currently an '''Arbitration Enforcement Request''' "]" regarding an issue in which you may have been involved. --] (]) 10:24, 17 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == archiving at ref desk == | |||
| There's an admin posts about archiving on the ref talk desk. He should probably be told, and I'd support a 7-day turnabout on all desks. The current 5-or-less is too little. ] (]) 03:40, 23 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ==Your request for undeletion== | |||
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| == January 2014 == | |||
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| :List of unpaired brackets remaining on the page: | |||
| *<nowiki>2013 the ] was granted ] status for testing of 4-</nowiki>{{red|'''('''}}<nowiki>6-(4-(piperazin-1-yl)phenyl_pyrazolopyrimidin-3-yl)quinoline hydrochloride for treatment of</nowiki> | |||
| Thanks, <!-- (1, 0, 0, 0) --><!-- User:BracketBot/inform -->] (]) 17:42, 5 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::Awww ''hell'', my has it wrong. I wonder if the Orphan Drug status doesn't count if the official announcement fails to balance its parentheses... ] (]) 18:06, 5 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| == Regardless == | |||
| Regardless of the issue at hand, I have to say "Even Moses said not to muzzle the ox that treadeth the grain!" is the best allusion I have seen at Misplaced Pages in months. ] (]) 22:11, 7 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :Hey, thanks! Though any truly viable analogy can be argued both ways... The rule about muzzling the ox at once expresses modern humane sentiments, yet seems rather repulsive, even before we get into the question of what they did or didn't do about the ''other'' end of the ox. It will be valuable as Refdesk respondents for us to try to strive that our digressions do more to pursue knowledge than to dump on the discussion, so we're at the right end of the metaphor. :) ] (]) 22:41, 7 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| == Thanks == | |||
| Thanks for your edits to ]! I wouldn't have thought to include that information. All the best, <font style="padding:1px 2px;background:#ADE6E1;border:1px solid">]</font><font style="padding:1px 5px;background:black;">]</font> 06:04, 15 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| == AfC in talk space == | |||
| I saw you wondering why AfC is in TalkSpace, but I didn't see that your query was answered. It actually was a clever idea, with some unfortunate consequences. The community has decided that IPs ought not to have the ability to create a new article in mainspace, which means that an AfC concept would prohibit IPs from contributing if the draft had to be in mainspace. Creating them in talk meant that IPs could contribute, as well as the minor additional benefit that it was easy to No-index. | |||
| However, this left the awkwardness that you noticed, and troubled me, there are times you want to add some comments or advice or whatever, and the "natural" place to do this is on the article talk page, except that it is already in the Talk page. The second choice might be the editor talk page, but if they are an IP, that might not work, especially if they are a dynamic IP. | |||
| This is one of the main reasons I fully supported the concept of the Draft space. It means: | |||
| * IPs can contribute | |||
| * Comments can be placed in the natural location, the talk page of the draft | |||
| * No-indexing is easy | |||
| * I hope, but do not yet know, that it will make searching easier. I field questions every day on OTRS about some article which turns out to be an AfC submission. It isn't easy to find. I hope that will be easier in the Draft space, but this is a minor point, the first three are the big ones for me.--]] 16:53, 16 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| == Re: the filter thing == | |||
| Thanks for your help, I'll try accessing the test page you put up when I'm at school tomorrow and see if it's blocked. Getting online in school hours is pretty hit and miss, but I'll do what I can. The thing that bothers me is that this is a really common blocking system in England; I think I actually remember it from primary school so for all I know it could be stopping millions of schoolkids from accessing those articles. For the moment I've been able to find a workaround (using HTTPS instead of HTTP seems to do the trick most of the time) but I'd much rather the pages were unblocked for everyone. ] (]) 19:06, 16 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| : Wow. That is a really, really, ''really'' dumb filter :) ] (]) 19:09, 16 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yeah, what makes it worse is that the pages I mentioned are blocked under "intolerance", which means that even the staff can't access it without a workaround. Also blocked are a bunch of BBC revision pages on drugs and puberty. The really scary thing is that it always blocks things that shouldn't be blocked, but when it comes to things that actually ''should'' be blocked (virus ridden websites, etc) the filter's nowhere to be found. Thanks again - ] (]) 19:16, 16 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::Well, unfortunately, one of the rites of passage for the intelligent modern schoolchild is to help his teachers bypass the school's censorware. ] (]) 19:19, 16 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::::By the way, I just visited the test pages you posted, and there's no block on either of them. Thanks - ] (]) 09:32, 17 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ==]== | |||
| I just wanted to let you know I created the article you suggested and others have been helping to improve it. | |||
| I want to apologize for not acting on your suggestion earlier. I hope you don't think that I don't value your opinion-- when you take on a whole new endeavor, it takes a while to get your bearings and prioritize. Your excellent suggestion temporarily slipped through the cracks, and I deeply respect the time you took to bring that suggestion back to our attention so we could revisit it. I will continue to work on the two articles you suggested in the coming days and weeks. | |||
| Thanks again for your participation at ]. Your contributions have 100% helped increase the likelihood that it will be a productive effort. | |||
| I look forward to further guidance from you and other main page experts about how we can improve the quality of the proposal or the proposed content items. --] (]) 21:22, 18 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| : Thanks! Make sure to propose these for DYK ''and'' to reserve them specifically for February 11. ] (]) 21:36, 18 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :: How's this for a hook: " ...the the proposed ], which would undo much of the ], was submitted by Rep. ], author of the Patriot Act?" --] (]) 19:46, 19 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::Well, remember that Section 215 was "]" of the ] that had provisions for anti-terrorism laws, border enforcement, money laundering, etc. I would say " ...that the proposed ], which would undo certain ] provisions of the ], was submitted by Rep. ], author of the Patriot Act?" ] (]) 19:53, 19 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Nominated at ]! did I do it right? --] (]) 20:25, 19 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::::*Just a random comment... this really is an interesting hook. Here is : ''Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner, who worked with president George W Bush to give more power to US intelligence agencies after the September 11 terrorist attacks, said the intelligence community had misused those powers by collecting telephone records on all Americans, and claimed it was time "to put their metadata program out of business".'' '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 23:38, 19 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| == Zyprexa == | |||
| http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Science/2013_August_3#Zyprexa_interacting_with_vitamins. | |||
| "How are they supposed to use the web at all without a search engine?" Easy. You don't have to use a search engine for Misplaced Pages, YouTube, Armor Games, USGS, Live Quakes Map, Rival Ball, UTorrent. Right? Those are the sites I have access to. --] (]) 20:32, 21 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :Hmmm. In a sense anything with a search is a search engine, but it's true that you can get at some things with unusual search engines. But I'm surprised all those searches work without access to Google's Javascripts. I thought ] was ''part'' of Google. Anyway, I suppose it depends on how you use the web - I suppose often I search for something obscure where I want every means. (I suppose ] also would count as an alternative search engine) ] (]) 20:41, 21 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::Can you use simple words? How to play your trivia quiz? I was thinking proper search engines.--] (]) 19:29, 25 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| == ... == | |||
| http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Earthquakes_in_2013&action=history --] (]) 20:47, 21 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| Look closely. <small>See anything unusual?</small>--] (]) 20:47, 21 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :Not really. What? | |||
| :I should add that I notice you have a strong interest in the ], but I find the popular interpretations of it to be unnecessarily gloomy. Yes, looking over a white-knuckled standoff with the Soviet Union, it was easy for people to see a "nuclear apocalypse" coming any day. But this doesn't seem compelling on an emotional level. If God is a good parent, why would God reward children for having a tantrum by giving them all new and better toys? It seems to make more sense that first humanity should make the world as good as it can ''possibly be'', and then, since it is imperfect, everything falls apart again (at which point things like deaths from earthquake and plague will truly stand out from the course of history), and ''then'', having learned to do our best with it, mankind is given a new revision. I would suppose Hitler could say on Judgment Day that some little Jewish brat beat him up for his lunch money when he was in first grade. Only in a perfect world can it be apparent when evil arises without any cause whatsoever. There is many a way to read a religious text for inspiration, and for all the prophecies of doom and gloom, there should be as many for peace to break out. I can see how someone might expect a nuke over Syria, but maybe this will be the time that people, by the will of God, finally bind up oppression and war and famine and death at the banks of the Euphrates, and usher in a millennium of peace and freedom. We live in a world where childbirth can come without pain, menstruation is optional, work seems to be becoming all but unnecessary except as a demand of poorly organized society, where the bite of a poisonous snake doesn't have to be fatal ... why shouldn't people picture a world where people dance joyfully to the very gates of Eden? ] (]) 04:57, 22 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::See line number 16 counting from top of the revisions. Can you use simple words?--] (]) 19:22, 25 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ==]== | |||
| I want to refer you to the draft and invite your collaboration. | |||
| If you wish, you can submit it to DYK. I personally am of the opinion that scheduling more than one DYK about mass surveillance on Feb 11 requires a site-wide polling. But you have a good argument that the Olympics are just as value-laden as any other social movement, and I don't want to be an impediment to you making that case. | |||
| I nominated one DYK for Feb 11, which is enough for my level of comfortability. I'm going to keep working on relevant articles, and I'll leave it to you or an RFC to nominate others for DYK on Feb 11 or not. | |||
| I'd also invite you to participate in ]. --] (]) 16:25, 24 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :] now meets minimum length requirements. If you feel it's ready for a DYK nom, move it into article space and nominate it. --] (]) 13:58, 25 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ping|HectorMoffet}} Here goes... I'm not the greatest hook writer; someone else might have a sexier way to put it. ] (]) 16:50, 26 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ==Would you set up an RFC?== | |||
| There's a , to discuss any plans to do something special on Feb 11. I'm hesitant to set it up myself, as my attempt to lead this didn't work out so well. Since you were one of the clearest and earliest voices calling for us to do something special, would you consider setting one up? --] (]) | |||
| :My position, as I'm saying on Jimbo's page,<sup></sup> is that I don't think we ''need'' to have an RFC (provided that exceptional obstructionism doesn't require us to have one to do what everyone else does already) because I think we can do all that we practically can do about the Feb. 11 protest as individuals working together. I don't think it's likely that Wikipedians in general want to have the site come forward in favor of the USA Freedom Act instead of the FISA Improvements Act, which leaves the question of what exactly the notice could be. As I've said there, I think Misplaced Pages should come forward in favor of specific victims of censorship, which is ultimately the effect of surveillance that we all worry about, but in order not to come off like we're just sounding off on any political issue we feel like, we ''have'' to be able to demonstrate a very clear connection to the work we do as volunteers here. ] (]) 19:59, 25 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ==Next up in the article queue== | |||
| So, per your above opinion, I think {{u|Petrarchan47}} is taking point on the RFC once Petra has finalized the wording. | |||
| In the mean time, I've been spending my time trying to create relevant articles that WP really should have. The two obvious omissions were ] and ]. Now that that's done, what looks good to you? | |||
| I think ] is looking good, but please visit ] and look at the drafts there or add some. I have some time on my hands, and as long as there's lots of NPOV/V/NOR sources, I can keep writing, day by day. Your input into the articles that would be good fits at WP or DYK would be most appreciated. | |||
| Keep up the good work and the good leadership! :) --] (]) 21:43, 26 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| == Intelligence redirects == | |||
| I was trying to follow your valiant efforts, but it seems ] redirects to ] -- and ] simply redirects to ]. | |||
| Just thought you should know, as those redirects might impede your efforts -- unless you might prefer to keep it as a task force off of ]. | |||
| Thanks for your efforts so far, | |||
| — ''']''' (]) 04:59, 27 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| : Sorry! -- there's a ] (which I saw you'd been at) and a ] associated with it... and I must have gotten mixed up somewhere when describing links. ] (]) 06:01, 27 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ==Incomplete DYK nomination== | |||
| ] Hello! Your submission of ''']''' at the ] is not complete; see ]. If you do not want to continue with the nomination, tag the nomination page with {{tl|db-g7}}, or ask a ]. Thank you. <!--Template:DYK nomination needs transcluded--> ] (]) 08:31, 27 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ==Another draft for your eyes== | |||
| Check out ] and see whatcha think. --] (]) 06:29, 28 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :Do you think ] has a DYK in it somewhere? --] (]) 12:25, 28 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| Thx for your suggestions on Stop Watching Us, i've tried to implement them. I'm still on-board with supplying you content for DYK-- if you have any suggests for where I should focus my efforts, I'd welcome it. --] (]) 05:11, 29 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ===Article on journalism post leaks?=== | |||
| Is now '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 07:23, 1 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::This is an impressive set of information (really, you should have posted this to WP:WikiProject Mass Surveillance). Even so, I still wouldn't be surprised to see an article on the "Snowden effect" end up at AfD with a proposal for a forcible merge into Snowden's biography, or one about the intimidation of the Guardian likewise being shoved at that article. The thing about all this surveillance stuff is that it all ties in together - whenever I pull on any one thing, I find myself sidetracked again and again. How do we drive a stake in this thing and say ''here'' is our article? | |||
| ::When I think of it, the real issue I'd like to see gotten at is how ''secrecy'' is morphed into ''censorship''. That's the story, after all, with the Guardian's hard drive or Barrett Brown's html link or federal employees told not to read Wikileaks (or even that thing with Quenton Tarantino's leaked script on Gawker). Honestly, I think a valid (though remote) analogy is the ]. Before this was passed, an escaped slave was the master's problem; residents of Northern states were free to treat them with kindness, and resentment of the Southern institution. But the effect of the bill was to press many Northerners to either become de facto slave-catchers, or else break the law. The situation with leaks and national security letters seems to be headed the same way, where random people are forced into complicity over somebody else's problem. And as a result, we see a transition from "this is secret and nobody better find out about it" to "YOU, peasant scum, aren't allowed to know things like this." Now to address that feeling in an article, document its roots and expressions comprehensively, is still a tough thing to plan. I'm thinking there should be something about ], or leaked information, or secret information, etc., but that doesn't feel precisely right either. ] (]) 02:26, 1 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::It might be easier if you didn't consider it a feeling - ie, amorphous, unobservable, unverifiable - it's simply a matter of following, and documenting, the story of classified information, leaks, retaliation and resulting suppression of information. ''YOU, peasant scum, aren't allowed to know things like this'' has, of course, always been the ideology at the top. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 06:41, 1 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::*"Society really seems to have developed an unquestioning obedience towards spooky types… Did we get to where we are today via a slippery slope that was entirely within our control to stop? Or was it a relatively instantaneous sea change that sneaked in undetected because of pervasive government secrecy?" -Edward Snowden <small>Seemed a bit similar to your post.</small> '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 11:42, 1 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ==Did I do this right?== | |||
| Second attempt, ]. Look if over, if you would, and make sure it meets the standards. --] (]) 18:44, 30 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :I think the hook is OK (caveat: I think that in common usage, any "part-time informer" is indeed an ''informer'', the necessary threshold of involvement being as low as for a traitor, I suppose, but I don't know for a fact that this is true of all English around the world). However, the section in the article was very confusing so I rewrote it. I still don't understand whether the 'Inoffizielle Mitarbeiter' was a full time paid position or something else, but that doesn't directly affect the hook. ] (]) 19:17, 30 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::Awesome-- please feel free to suggest any alternate hook text-- your article improvement was much appreciated. Any suggestions for what at ] might make a good DYK hook? We have several drafts brewing over there, and if you can think of any articles we'll missing, I'll get to work on them-- I make a lousy leader, but I can do some pretty good writing sometimes. :) | |||
| ::Additionally, if you feel like it, you might review ] which is now at FAC. Peer feedback said it was ready for FAC, but more eyeballs the better. --] (]) 19:56, 30 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| == Invitation to join WikiProject Freedom of speech == | |||
| *] | |||
| There is a ] about ], called ]. | |||
| If you're interested, here are some easy things you can do: | |||
| #List yourself as a participant in the WikiProject, by adding your username here: ]. | |||
| #Add userbox {{tl|User Freedom of speech}} to your userpage, which lists you as a member of the WikiProject. | |||
| #Tag relevant talk pages of articles and other relevant pages using {{tl|WikiProject Freedom of speech}}. | |||
| #Join in discussion at ]. | |||
| #Notify others you think might be interested in ] to join the WikiProject. | |||
| Thank you for your interest in ], — ''']''' (]) 01:20, 1 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ==So, what are we missing?== | |||
| Assuming we had a consensus to put NPOV content on mainpage, how are we doing? We have ] for TFA is no repeats are allowed, and maybe ] if repeats are allowed. We have solid POTD ]. | |||
| Do you think the DYKs are good enough to merit inclusion? Do you think there are any pages we're missing that we should create and propose at DYK? | |||
| I've got some time, and I'll leave it to the experts to decide the scheduling. --] (]) 15:17, 5 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :Can you help fix the concerns raised at ]? --] (]) 16:13, 5 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :Thx for the improvements at the Arizona article! Any response to the concerns raised at ]? --] (]) 17:04, 5 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ==This was left at my talk page== | |||
| === ] citations === | |||
| I see that in addition to being the DYK nominator, you are the original drafter and major editor to date of ]. I note that many of the citaitons in this article are to bare URLs. It would be better practice, as discussed in ] to provide such metadata (the term is perhaps ironic in this particular case) as author, date, and source where this is available. This can be done using the cite templates such as {{tl|cite web}}, {{tl|cite news}}, {{tl|cite journal}}, and {{tl|cite book}}, or it can be done manually, or via any of various other methods. I like the cite tempaltes myself, and I also like ], but any method may be used. I could have placed a twinkle maintenance tag, but I didn't want to hold up the DYK. Can you look into adding metadata to the cited references? ] ] 17:03, 5 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
| == Friendly check-in == | |||
| Hey, I just want you to know that, despite how it might seem, I'm on your side on this (to the extent there are "sides"). I just want to make sure we're complying with Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines while we go about our good work. :-) --] (]) 04:45, 6 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :It doesn't really that way. I mean, that's probably the most definitive announcement of this event. Sure, it's a Reddit thread, but an official thread from named persons to answer questions, on the site whose founder the event commemorates. You may or may not personally favor NSA reform, but interactions like this do much to illustrate that on Misplaced Pages, the main "sides" worth speaking of are still the inclusionists and the deletionists. ] (]) 05:26, 6 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::I urge you not to think of things in such a black-and-white manner. There are some articles in which I have only a passing interest, and for those I tend to critique other's work (which effectively means I do a lot of deleting). There are other (fewer) articles in which I take a more active, creative role. That's just my editing style. Some folks just do copy editing. We all bring our own skills and contributions to the table. Trimming the fat is a very important part of the process. --] (]) 06:20, 6 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ==Up to you== | |||
| So obviously, I've been harassed pretty successfully. Initially I didn't submit content to DYK, but the complaints about that led me to nominated at DYK. A little voice in the back of my head said "What if someone tries to sabotage this initiative by fast-tracking nominations so the run BEFORE feb 11, despite the stated hold request?". But I thought "Come on, this is Misplaced Pages-- Assume Good Faith! No one would be that much of an ahole". | |||
| I was wrong. The OWNers of mainpage are so offended by any suggestion pf NOTBUREAUCRACY is being 'vetoed' by main page apparatchiks, not that they actually have that power. | |||
| It clear I don't have the skills set to generate a consensus. I hope you and Jimbo and our other board members do have that skillset. I've done my best to generate options for the community if consensus emerges, but I'm '''deeply''' troubled by how a small handful of users presumes to prejudge the outcome of a discussion. | |||
| It's time for me to check out-- I got you a POTD and 8 DYK noms, but I don't have the constitution for the ensuing debate. Feb 11 may or may not be special-- the responsibility for making it special lies with you and jimbo. | |||
| Do your best. :) --] (]) 07:45, 7 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{ping|HectorMoffet|Wnt}}Just wanted to weigh in that I've been quite successfully harassed as well. You can view my talk page for the (mostly deleted) proof, as well as the histories of the ] article and Snowden talk page. It's one thing to 'keep the faith', but at a certain point, an editor sometimes has to walk away. This I have discovered can happen when folks decide to gang up, join forces, and spent heaps of time and energy pursuing a goal. Blessings to you both, '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px #B8B8B8;">]]]</span>''' 21:15, 7 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :{{ping|HectorMoffet}} some points for you to consider. | |||
| :* To begin with, this DYK response, though infuriating, is not actually surprising to me. I knew that there was something off about the DYK process from my very first comment about the idea, "fishing in the contentious waters off Gibraltar", and this collision was the expected outcome, though not the one I'd hoped for. Before this, people imagined the DYK process was as neutral as I said it should be; now we realize that some people in power are choosing what causes it is OK to feature. Misplaced Pages has failed to consider the theory of a good, fair DYK process, and that is a problem. As I said in the debate, the clearest issue going forward is religion. DYK has accepted a "Special Day" for the elevation of cardinals of the Catholic Church. It is time now to hunt around among ], ], ], ] and find comparable events for which a "Special Day" of DYKs might be requested. (An initial search, leading to , is a bit less than satisfactory, but proof of principle) If DYK refuses a Special Day, they can and should be keelhauled for religious discrimination; but if they accept it, then it is clear that Special Days need not be "widely recognized" and the regime will be further exposed and isolated. (Doubtless some wag will say that violates "]", but what part of creating articles or fighting religious bias on the Main Page constitutes disruption?) | |||
| :* Now let's remember also: you have ''succeeded'' in all but the most trivial detail. TDWFB was announced as a "month of activism culminating in" February 11, and the early run means that your DYKs go out in that month. At least they ''do'' go out, people ''do'' read them, regardless of the day, and maybe they ''will'' join the new WikiProject. The NSA isn't going away soon, so there's no need to focus so much on one day. | |||
| :* In general, these things with global surveillance carry the heavy pall of an apocalypse, and no small one at that; it seems as if we must either go out with the destruction of all rights and the subjugation of all people, or with the acceptance of all humanity with all its foibles and everything it has to say. But this is not the first generation to make that choice, and several preceding ones have not failed in the end. It is not in our nature to be holy men, but as things progress we are forced either to go in that direction, or in the other. So it is going to be very important to try to find faith, and to try not to give into frustration. | |||
| :* Some reflection on Daoist philosophy is also in order. The most forceful action (trying to change all policy and take over the main page) is the least effective. The ] action (steady, thoughtful editing about what you find interesting) may be the most effective. Misplaced Pages is most effective when it is most unpredictable<sup></sup> -- perhaps even when we are not even sure ourselves what we are trying to achieve. | |||
| :* That said, I don't mean to underestimate the value of your effort; the appearance of great writers ... ... I know nothing about this, but I suspect it all sounds expensive. You can donate money to Misplaced Pages and have them spend dollar for dollar in combat with these folks, or accomplish the same for free at the cost of nothing but ... frustration. Just because Misplaced Pages pays nothing doesn't mean it ''costs'' nothing for somebody with the opposite agenda and little general public support. There have been idiots who have gone down to protests to smash shop windows who may have inflicted less financial expense, and that at random. Remember, the whole point of opposing an adversary who is out to deny your rights is that simply by doing things that are fully within your rights you are causing them grief. | |||
| : ] (]) 15:54, 7 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::First off I want to say that I like everything you wrote in bullets 1-4. However, regarding bullet 5, as the heavy editor of ] and the one who notes on my userpage that my views don't represent those of my employer, it's clear that you're referring to me (despite the fact that I've hardly edited at ]). I find your semi-veiled accusation of paid COI '''extremely''' ignorant, offensive, and uncivil. I demand that you review my edit history, retract your accusation, and apologize. It's downright wiki-libel. I've consistently taken a hard line against paid COI editing, not only stating on multiple occasions that at a minimum editors should be banned outright for not disclosing paid COIs, but also actually taking a couple of editors to ] for undisclosed paid COI editing. One of them eventually got site banned. The other was (I believe) a paid shill for, of all organizations, '''ALEC'''. While she was actively editing I consistently battled to keep reliably sourced material that happened to be bad publicity for ALEC, and remove promotional material. This is all easily verifiable, just skim through ] for example... so for you, a veteran editor, to be making accusations that are so blatantly the ''exact opposite'' of reality is really just... astounding. And what I have to do with the TDWFB DYK is beyond me; I've watched it with interest, but I've never even commented on it. Really, I'm dumbfounded. --] (]) 19:07, 7 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ::And I suspect {{u|Capitalismojo}} (another active contributor at ]) will ''laugh at loud'' at your ridiculous accusation. --] (]) 19:43, 7 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::Heh, well it's more of a snort and a chuckle than laughing out loud. Good humor. Thanks for pinging me. Dr.F may be many things, but having a COI with ALEC is the least likely one I can imagine. ] (]) 20:06, 7 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Note that I made no accusation, nor did I suggest how anyone stands on those topics, and indeed I don't know. You aren't the only person I had in mind when I made that comment, anyway. The way you keep materializing - here in response to a conversation with one other editor, at ] right after I reverted a removal by a different editor, and your persistent removals at ] do make me suspicious. In any case, as I did not name you let alone accuse you, and as I ''do'' expect the pro-surveillance side to take some kind of action at some point, there's nothing to retract here. ] (]) 20:15, 7 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::::That doesn't read like a retraction or an apology. Please tell me exactly whom you were referring to. Now, before I request administrator attention. --] (]) 20:20, 7 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: If you're going to be like that, surely it won't do any good to bring anyone else's name into this. ] (]) 20:29, 7 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I agree, it wouldn't, since there's no one else whose name might be brought in. --] (]) 20:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::: (ec) Nonetheless, to avoid further distraction, I'll remove the very general description there, because it doesn't really say anything and therefore not really very interesting. ] (]) 20:26, 7 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You're getting warmer, but that doesn't read like a retraction or an apology either. More like a whitewash. Hurry along, now. --] (]) 20:31, 7 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 05:10, 8 December 2024
 | This user may have left Misplaced Pages. Wnt has not edited Misplaced Pages since July 2019. As a result, any requests made here may not receive a response. If you are seeking assistance, you may need to approach someone else. |
For comments February 2008 to December 2010 see User:Wnt/Archive/1.
For comments December 2010 to December 2013 see User:Wnt/Archive/2.
For comments January 2014 to December 2014 see User:Wnt/Archive/3.
For comments January 2015 to December 2018 see User:Wnt/Archive/4.
For comments January 2019 to June 2019 see User:Wnt/Archive/5.
Please add new comments at the bottom, not here.
New Zealand shooting video threat
Just so we're crystal clear: If you ever come through on that threat to undermine the project in such a despicable way, you'll be indeffed so fast your head will spin. El_C 00:36, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
- Straight to indef if I were to add a single citation? Interesting. I hope that Jan Eissfeldt and his team will take a more nuanced approach to administering the site once they get the kinks worked out of their transition. Trust me -- after that last show of support, I have no further interest in supporting any protest action against their authority. This is their site and they will do what they wish with it. Wnt (talk) 00:45, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
- Frankly, I considered indeffing you right on the spot. You can't use the crisis of confidence with the Foundation as pretext for such outrageous disruption. El_C 00:52, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
And then you even go on to have a play-by-play (redacted) of the video itself — what are you on about? El_C 00:42, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
- Normally I answer questions, but I was just threatened with being blocked if I continued expressing my disagreement with the posters there, so I literally have nothing to say to you. Wnt (talk) 00:45, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
- The question was mostly rhetorical, anyway. I don't expect you to say anything, just to listen and reflect. El_C 00:52, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
Wnt, I have referred to this conversation at El C's talk, just to advise you of that. I have no wish to directly engage with you. cygnis insignis 02:22, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
Block
{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}. El_C 03:04, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
- @El C: - I don't quite agree that past events should be considered as last straws... starship.paint (talk) 03:14, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
- Let me put this way: had I known about the April 7 incident, I would have indeffed on the spot instead of issuing a warning. So it is a last straw, even if in reverse. Basically, there seems to be an unhealthy fixation with that video that raises alarm bells for me. El_C 03:19, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
- @El C: - I don't know about an obsession with that video, but what I can say is that Wnt is the most pro-transparency person I've come across, and that applies to the video, among other things. starship.paint (talk) 03:30, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
- That may be so, but a line has to be drawn. Families of victims of that shootout deserve our protection from displaying their loved ones' final and horrific moments on this earth for all to see. El_C 03:36, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not arguing against that. Merely offering my take on Wnt. starship.paint (talk) 03:40, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
- I appreciate that. I, too, believe in transparency, but my point is that there's red lines one does not cross. El_C 03:48, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
Wnt, whether or not you decide to appeal, I hope you will be well. starship.paint (talk) 03:42, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
Wnt, if there's anything I can do to help, please let me know in e-mail. My initial reactions would probably not be helpful. --Trovatore (talk) 04:33, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
- I was aware back in April that Wnt had added a link to the Christchurch shooting video. I thought at the time that this was poor judgment from an experienced editor. However, I do think that an indefinite block is harsh.--♦IanMacM♦ 05:15, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
- I hope the admin concerned to review the decision. I am not sure if this is fair to ban him/her indef over one count of transgression. --It's gonna be awesome!✎Talk♬ 05:24, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
- This is a damn good (and necessary) block. I just came across his edits of today and shocking is an understatement. ∯WBG 08:14, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
Unblock request
Wnt (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))
Request reason:
I have given this block some thought, and the truth is, I did commit the WP:Disruptive editing that it was issued for, and I did so foolishly. When the news of Fram's ban came out, some editors leapt into a People's Crusade to cause trouble for the WMF, T&S, and JEissfeldt (WMF) in particular. I owe them several apologies. I immediately projected my own thoughts for reform onto the group, imagining that since this was a reaction against "civility enforcement" they wanted some kind of 1990s-era internet liberty that in increasingly strong terms they told me they didn't want. Just before I was blocked I finally got the point (above) that this was always a battle over power, not principle, and that I should never have been involved in it at all. While being involved, several times I jumped into discussions that said "let's disrupt Misplaced Pages like this, or this, or this", and each time I started brainstorming "well, if you really want to disrupt Misplaced Pages..." I rationalized this by telling myself that if the idea gained consensus, it wouldn't be against policy; but in reality the entire WP:FRAM discussion can never create a consensus against the WMF, even if everyone voted for something. This was one of those cases. More specifically, I didn't "get the point", per WP:DE (which to be honest I hadn't read in ages), that the video wasn't wanted by other editors of the article, so re-proposing its addition, even on another forum, was violating the policy. I suggested the most contentious thing I could think of on the grounds that nothing could disrupt Misplaced Pages for the WP:FRAM mob better than that. Obviously, I need to stop participating in this disruptive anti-WMF action and to recognize its failure, both at the practical level, and in the more fundamental sense that the system the rebel editors want is not meaningfully different than what T&S would impose. Even if some admins are retiring, it is entirely normal for employees to move on when they realize their jobs will be phased out, and at this point, certainly none of my concern. The role of "protection" in this block is more difficult to interpret. WP:BLP has a short section on avoiding victimization that speaks of trimming sections back to the sources, so I did not think citing a source per se, especially on a talk page, would violate it. The policy has a section on images, but only in the sense of a "false light". The block policy speaks of defamation, and it doesn't seem like it is defamatory to be the victim of a crime. I bring this up because I have to be clear I have been engaging in similar behavior for a long time, and I don't know which of my behavior would be viewed as improper. For example, at Muath Al-Kasasbeh I added a Fox News article that includes the video of ISIS setting the man on fire; I was very clear about this in an edit in February 2015 (I don't know if it would be a blockable offense for me to link to the diff), and the source remains in the article today. I checked the video still works last night; it does, and it is still far more horrifying to watch than the other one. At Christchurch mosque shootings I added a reference whose archive still contains the shooter's full manifesto, which as some said is now illegal to read in New Zealand (a first for that country) and certainly is also propaganda, and still available at the archive link. I should disclose that the situation at that article had already escalated to an AN/I thread where a block had been "clearly rejected" for reinserting a primary link to the racists' take on the situation. I had assumed that if a clearly unsuitable source for the article was not blockable to return to the talk page, then an archive.org link to a video being discussed worldwide should be uncontroversial. That particular article had been the home of proposals I had never heard of for an encyclopedia article before, like that the murderer should not be named, and I did not take the critical voices in the AN/I as seriously as perhaps I should have. In the past I have thought of myself as a citizen of Misplaced Pages, even a "part owner", trying to push for it to keep true to what I thought were its fundamental ideals. Over the past two weeks it has become apparent that it is much like any other social media corporation. I could wish for the old Misplaced Pages, but it no longer exists, and it is pointless to try to speak to the dead. In this new Misplaced Pages, I am merely a social media user trying, like any, to figure out how the rules have changed lately. But I am not entirely above using social media now and then, though with much less enthusiasm than I used to have for Misplaced Pages. So I will request the unblock whenever you see fit because there are still some things I can do here you might find useful, and will try to take your advice. WP:DE mentions the possibility of escalating block terms before an indef is reached, so that's what I'll hope for. Obviously, I will not be reposting about the New Zealand video going forward, but you'll have to decide how to bring anything else I've mentioned into compliance with T&S and the informal community administrative process. I recognize now that this is not my site and it is not my role to tell the owners how to run it. I give up, really. I was already at my wit's end with those wacky ideas I was proposing before. Wnt (talk) 16:50, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
Decline reason:
WP:TLDR; please shorten your request and resubmit. 331dot (talk) 17:17, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
Unblock request 2
Wnt (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))
Request reason:
I have given this some thought, and I did foolishly commit the WP:Disruptive editing that it was issued for. I failed to realize this was a battle over power, not principle, which I should never have been involved in it at all. Several times I jumped into discussions that said "let's disrupt Misplaced Pages like this" and brainstormed for more ideas, rationalizing that if they gained consensus they couldn't be disruptive -- but there can be no consensus against the WMF. The video was the most contentious thing I could think of ... but I didn't "get the point", per WP:DE, that the video wasn't wanted by other editors of the article, so re-proposing its addition, even on another forum, was violating the policy. I need to stop participating in this disruptive anti-WMF action and to recognize its failure.
The role of "protection" in this block is harder to understand. WP:BLP's section on avoiding victimization speaks of trimming sections back to the sources, so I didn't see how a source on the talk page could violate it. I also didn't see how being a victim of a crime would be a false light or defamatory. I bring this up because you should know I have been engaging in similar behavior for a long time. At Muath Al-Kasasbeh I added a Fox News article that includes the video of ISIS setting the man on fire; I was very clear about this in an edit in February 2015 At Christchurch mosque shootings I added a reference whose archive still contains the shooter's full manifesto. Both are still in the articles. An AN/I thread "clearly rejected" a block over a different objectionable link, and I assumed an archive.org source would not be a violation of policy as I knew it. In the past I have thought of myself as a citizen of Misplaced Pages, even a "part owner", pushing for it to keep true to what I thought were its fundamental ideals. I give up on that idea; I am just a visitor on someone else's machine. But I will request the unblock whenever you see fit because this is the Social Media we have now, and there are still a few things I could do you might find useful, and I will try to take your advice. WP:DE mentions the possibility of escalating block terms before an indef is reached, so that's what I'll hope for. Wnt (talk) 18:24, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
@Dlohcierekim:Thank you for your encouraging words. I wasn't expecting an immediate unblock; what matters is if it can happen or not. My understanding is that formerly blocked editors are subject to much higher scrutiny, especially when there is this level of disagreement. I assure you that I have no intention of further WP:DE or WP:POINT violations, or any violations of policy. WP:POINT is a crime of passion, and my passion for this project is I think permanently diminished. This is a matter of trying to salvage what is left.
@Lourdes: makes a good suggestion of undoing disruptive edits, but so far as I know the worst of them were already cut out of the page, and the rest of my intemperate anti-WMF comments were archived. Given the higher level of scrutiny, I am hesitant to start editing talk page archives. I mean, I have some harsh words in archive 2 and 3, but I'm not sure if editing the archive is more disruptive than leaving it. What I do intend to do, if it is permissible, will be to make an apology on the active page, recant my involvement, and urge others to abandon disruptive actions.
@El C: The edit I was talking about was on February 9. Our present reference #34 links this video internally within the company under "WARNING: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC VIDEO"). I don't want to provide a diff here because linking to it seems nearly identical to the action I was just blocked for. If you think the page is violating policy at present, it is up to you to address that. Wnt (talk) 00:52, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
Decline reason:
Obviously, it's possible to do the wrong thing for what might appear to be the right reason. I might even agree with the reason. I almost accepted this, but I need fuller assurance that you will not disupt Misplaced Pages to make a point. My decline should not carry sufficient weight that the next reviewing admin should feel any trepidation at granting an unblock. Having said that, the insertion of a link to that video would be enough reason to block, though for how long is debatable. Hope to get you back soon, and it's sad that certain events have occurred to make this situation possible. Dlohcierekim (talk), admin, renamer 03:43, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
- I would probably request Wnt to add a line to their statement (suggested above by Dlohcierekim) that they will also in good faith attempt to undo all the past edits that they know are probably disruptive. Lourdes 06:09, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
Perhaps if Wnt would add diffs to what they are talking about regarding Muath Al-Kasasbeh...? At any rate, it's clear that they do not grasp the gravity of adding a link to the New Zealand shooting video. We don't do that on Misplaced Pages for reasons that are too obvious to mention. Trying to wikilawyer about that continues a wrongheaded approach. Participants have suggested to Wnt what tone they ought to take —display some reflection and honest introspection— but I suspect that this will not be happening because Wnt doesn't actually believe that they did anything wrong. El_C 16:37, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
- I would suggest that it should not be a single admin's judgment about what is too obvious to mention that controls whether someone gets an indef block. --Trovatore (talk) 17:19, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
- And you are more than free to bring this up to any forum of review you see fit. Displaying or linking to videos of executions is prohibited on Misplaced Pages. Which is, indeed, too obvious to mention. Oh well. El_C 17:31, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not saying there can't be (iconic) exceptions, but as a general rule — have I missed something about this being not being obvious? El_C 17:39, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
- Can you point me to the policy that says displaying or linking to videos of executions is prohibited on Misplaced Pages? Or is this your rule, which you want everyone else to agree is obvious? --Trovatore (talk) 17:53, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
- WP:OM, WP:DE — it is obviously disruptive and not encyclopedic. El_C 18:04, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
- OM does not mention enforcement at all, as far as I can tell. Also it emphasizes the "principle of least astonishment"; the main concern seems to be avoiding giving offense to the unwary. The edit with the link has been revdel'd so I can't evaluate whether an unwary editor was likely to click it by mistake, but from the context around the discussion I would lean towards guessing that it was not likely.
- DE does mention enforcement, in considerable detail, and has nothing at all about an indef block on the basis of a single admin's judgment about where the red lines are, outside of disruption-only accounts which is clearly not Wnt's case. --Trovatore (talk) 18:24, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, I'm not that interested to further debate policy interpretation or semantics at this time. I feel like my position has been sufficiently explained. But just to reiterate briefly, as the 2nd reviewing admin said: "the insertion of a link to that video would be enough reason to block." I argue that this, coupled with the threat to insert that link to scare of Misplaced Pages corporate donors and the like, justifies this block. El_C 18:34, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
- WP:OM, WP:DE — it is obviously disruptive and not encyclopedic. El_C 18:04, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
- Can you point me to the policy that says displaying or linking to videos of executions is prohibited on Misplaced Pages? Or is this your rule, which you want everyone else to agree is obvious? --Trovatore (talk) 17:53, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
As I suspected, the video linked in ref number 34 of Muath Al-Kasasbeh (FOX News) does not display any actual executions. Drawing parallels between it and the New Zealand shooting video is perplexing, to say the least. El_C 01:04, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
Further digging shows that FOX News actually embedded the unedited video (Guardian) — shame on them. El_C 01:09, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
I found (and redacted) an unedited footage of that ISIS execution, so thanks for bringing that article to my attention. I note that mainstream news organization chose not to show the video (Washington Post) — because of course they didn't! El_C 01:19, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- So, there are two issues here: advocating for WP:POINT disruption in protest to the WMF, and the actual linking of offensive content. The former is understandable. You admit you got carried away by the Fram hysteria. You'll drop it and move on. Great. The latter is what has not been sufficiently addressed. Can you explain why you've been pushing the inclusion of shocking and offensive content? I don't really understand that part. ~Swarm~ 20:24, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Swarm: Please bear in mind in reading this that I am speaking of my motivations in the past, when I genuinely believed that Misplaced Pages had a policy against censorship. I am not suggesting any kind of defiance of your present requirements. In prior editing, for example, I followed copyright policy even though I don't believe in it.
- The original reason for including this kind of content was a general feeling that primary sources are important for a comprehensive and neutral point of view. If a politician is being accused of a sexist Tweet, and his defenders say it wasn't sexist, you can include two paragraphs of secondary sources and not get nearly as accurate an impression as if you simply reprint the Tweet. This feeling traces back to advanced biology courses where I was told always to go back and look at the original paper, see the gel, look at the constructs, examine the rationale of the experiment -- not just to trust reviews of reviews. Secondary sources are essential for Misplaced Pages, and primary sources can't often be used without them, but they aren't enough to do a topic justice.
- In the context of offensive material, I saw a situation where Misplaced Pages articles could be more informative than other sources. When media would avoid linking to a source, we, being "NOTCENSORED", could provide a more comprehensive view of the topic. The media's aversion to sources seldom feels genuine -- for example, Associated Press almost always avoids giving useful authorship information about science papers, preferring to say something like "researchers at the University of Bristol". This is because the media outlets don't want readers clicking away to read a primary source when they should be going on to the next advertisement.
- I have been aware of a greatly increased abhorrence, on and off Misplaced Pages, to "extremist" or violent content in recent years. I am aware of laws passed in Britain and Australia. I was under the impression that Misplaced Pages, being in the U.S., was not going along with that, and did want to try to help maintain the site's distinctive ancestral character by seeking out these links.
- To the extent that primary sources become hard to find, the absence tends to promote misinformation. For example, there is a conspiracy theory I was surprised to find hosted on archive.org today that claims that an ammo clip was left behind from a "previous take". The uncut video makes quick work of that deception, because the killer can be heard dropping it the moment before it is seen.
- Any retreat from this position was stalled by the lack of a notable change in policy, and uncertainty regarding where the change would come. Would it be a ban on descriptions of charas usage, which the Russians complained about, or synthesis routes for illicit drugs, or images of Rorschach blots, or Muhammad, or coverage of news now restricted under EU's Article 13, or leaked State Department cables, or links to Iranian or Venezuelan propaganda? We have had so many controversies over the years, so many times we had ultimately rejected restricting the content. But Brenton Tarrant has fundamentally changed Misplaced Pages just as he changed New Zealand. I was a bit surprised that El C did not remove the manifesto reference (#134) from the shooting article since it is as illegal in New Zealand as the video footage, but it is up to you to decide what the policy is.
- It is clear enough now that news source linking to video of people dying are no longer permitted by policy, and as I said, I have no intent to violate policy. I hope this has not been too lengthy a response; trim it if you like. Wnt (talk) 22:05, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- Wnt, I find your (and your defenders) lack of basic human empathy for victims of a mass murderer to be mind-boggling. Your tendency to wikilawyer about policy and getting back at WMF when the issue is posting a video of human beings being slaughtered and calling it "bestgore" is frankly, unbelievable to me. I have no confidence that you even understand the line you crossed into frankly 4chan-type of behavior. I will not review an unblock request because I am admittedly appalled, not only at your efforts and suggestion to post this video but the fact that you can talk about butchery of innocent people in such a detached way. Typically, we see this behavior in trolls, not experienced editors. Liz 21:23, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Liz: I do feel empathy for them. What I don't understand is why looking at or sharing a video of a terrible injustice being done to them would reflect a lack of empathy. How is it empathetic not to be willing to see a person crying, or a person fighting back?
- You may also think it cold to be able to watch such a video. That is true: I know cold. I have had to help pull my mother naked from a bathroom floor, feeling the shattered bone grinding in her hip. When I waited for the diagnosis of her metastasis out in the coldest blizzard of the winter, it felt as warm as a day at the beach. I was colder than the heart of winter. There was no national day of mourning for Mom. The liars who built those machines to certify the "low-tar" cigarettes in the 1970s were never prosecuted. And that cold heart inside me thinks that Mom would have been very fortunate indeed to have died in a few seconds of turmoil, surrounded by thoughts of God and salvation. Nothing in that video was as bad as when I expected when I first hit Play; it was a relief compared to what my imagination had conjured up. Call me a troll; it is not wrong. But is it against policy to be cold? Wnt (talk) 22:25, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- Based on the last response, can I request that talk page access be removed without going to AN/I? cygnis insignis 22:21, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Cygnis insignis: What do you feel I did wrong with that response? I am not seeking to violate any policies here. If an admin asks me a question pertaining the unblock, shouldn't I give a truthful answer? I certainly do not want to engage in "continued abuse of their user talk page", and could delete anything you think strayed from the present purpose. Wnt (talk) 22:32, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- I can only try mate. This is sort of discussion that led to the creation of video? I can't help from where I'm sitting, and my attempts in the real world are not professional and very limited in their success. cygnis insignis 22:55, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- There is a difference between NOTCENSORED and intentionally shocking and discomforting people, not to inform them, but to make a point. Just as I think we should have free speech, I also think people have a right not to listen - and that includes the right not to be bullhorned. Wether right or wrong, I have the impression that you are still trying to make a point, not to constructively engage with the others. I'm willing to consider an unblock, but I don't want whiny pretension of "I am right, but the world is unjust, and I will play by its crooked rules". I want a sign that you understand that your position is not the only possible or moral one, and that if in doubt you will not confront others with more shock and graphic violence (or sickness) than they should expect in this environment. Giving information is fine, but let others make the decision how much and in which form they want it. If in doubt, go for consensus. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:59, 1 July 2019 (UTC) I'll also be mostly offline for the next 12-14h, so nothing I do will be quick. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:05, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Stephan Schulz: Thank you for this kind response. My response to Swarm was verbose, but at the end I said that I would treat video of death (also "graphic violence") as being against policy unless I have some very clear indication otherwise. I'm not sure what you meant by "just information" -- as I recall, my archive.org link led to a user profile that led to two uploaded videos each of which had a warning. So far as I can tell, any link that even indirectly navigates to such a video is considered against policy and my days of providing "information" are just about over. My feeling is that some people here would not at all mind to see me blocked again for any reason -- my account is precarious, and I am going to have to use it very lightly if I want to keep it for anything at all. (Sorry for rushing this response, but I'm not sure if I'll be allowed to post it later) Wnt (talk) 23:24, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- No worries. But what I see is more extrinsic motivation. "My account is precarious", therefore I need to be careful". I'd like to see some sign of an intrinsic understanding of the problem. To get away from the video: before my first post here I saw the shortish discussion on WP:ANI, I remembered you as someone with sometimes unusual ideas, but at least some that are usually worthy of consideration, and hence I decided to see what the situation is and if I could help diffuse it. I was expecting the usual - (maybe heated) discussion about Wikipolicies, maybe a bit of cussing, maybe even a bit of rational discourse (yes, I'm a bit of a Pollyanna). Instead, I get confronted with dead or dying mothers, broken bones grating, and metastasising cancer thrown around. I'm normally robust, but it took me half an hour or so to get that imagery out of my head before I went to sleep yesterday. I don't think I deserved this. In particular because I think it served no useful purpose. I'm a free speech advocate, and pretty much an absolutist. But if we all use all of our rights to the extreme limits, communities break down. Words have power, and with power comes responsibility. If I were to unblock you, I would need some sign that you will consider the effect of your words (and links, and whatever) on the readers, and try to maintain proportionality. Making German officials visit Auschwitz concentration camp after WW2 was proportional. Brainwashing Alex was not. In between there is a grey zone. My impression is that you are not very good at grey. But, like John Nash, we can sometimes overcome some of our weaknesses by using our strength. If you don't have a good intuition about what people find acceptable, be conservative, use your higher-level reasoning, and if in doubt, ask someone else before acting rashly. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:45, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Stephan Schulz: Thank you for this kind response. My response to Swarm was verbose, but at the end I said that I would treat video of death (also "graphic violence") as being against policy unless I have some very clear indication otherwise. I'm not sure what you meant by "just information" -- as I recall, my archive.org link led to a user profile that led to two uploaded videos each of which had a warning. So far as I can tell, any link that even indirectly navigates to such a video is considered against policy and my days of providing "information" are just about over. My feeling is that some people here would not at all mind to see me blocked again for any reason -- my account is precarious, and I am going to have to use it very lightly if I want to keep it for anything at all. (Sorry for rushing this response, but I'm not sure if I'll be allowed to post it later) Wnt (talk) 23:24, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Cygnis insignis: What do you feel I did wrong with that response? I am not seeking to violate any policies here. If an admin asks me a question pertaining the unblock, shouldn't I give a truthful answer? I certainly do not want to engage in "continued abuse of their user talk page", and could delete anything you think strayed from the present purpose. Wnt (talk) 22:32, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
(←) Okay, so basically what I'm getting from your replies is that you felt that something like an actual video of an incident, however horrific, is an important primary source with legitimate academic value, and, per NOTCENSORED, should not be excluded purely because it is offensive. You're not obsessed with spreading that video or shock content in general to make some sort of point. Your advocacy for doing so at WP:FRAM to protest the WMF had nothing to do with your reasons for advocating for including it in the past. I do hope that it is understandable to you as to why an admin would see your comments advocating for horrific shock videos to be posted to disrupt Misplaced Pages, which is extreme by any measure, and then see that you actually have done so in the past, and interpreting it as willful disruption or vandalism. I certainly don't think El_C was unreasonable for thinking that you have an "unhealthy fixation with that video that raises alarm bells". Can't you see how horrible that looks? I mean, you're upsetting a bunch of people by even suggesting that we spread that video to troll the WMF, and then we find out that you've already posted the video on-wiki. If you had a nuanced, academic reason for doing so, you didn't present any that talk page, you just said "we should put a link" and then posted it. That's why you're blocked. There's going to be little tolerance for someone who appears to have an inexplicable fixation on posting a horrifying shock video of a mass shooting. It's not because we have some new zero-tolerance policy on offensive material. NOTCENSORED is an important policy, and above even that we have a Content disclaimer, which actually goes so far as to say that we may freely host content that is illegal outside of the US. The OM guideline is just a caveat to all that, which basically boils down to "within reason". Offensive material will be protected from censorship all day, but there has to be a good reason for it in the first place. We don't want you to treat offensive/objectionable content as a policy violation, because it's not, and that's not the point. You just need to understand that it's not unchecked, and the inclusion of such material needs to be based on weighing encyclopedic value against needless distress inflicted. This is subjective and a spectrum. It is not one extreme or the other. As you can clearly see, these situations can very quickly become highly emotional and should not be treated lightly. You can and should advocate against censorship, but such advocacy needs to focus on the encyclopedic value of the relevant content, which is subjective and can and should be reasonably discussed. These situations require nuance. If you want to include something that is offensive for an academic reason, that's actually fine. But you have to reasonably explain the underlying rationale, stay within policy, and avoid needlessly upsetting people. And if you're going to do that, you probably shouldn't simultaneously advocate for using that same content to disrupt the project. That's certainly not a good look. ~Swarm~ 01:58, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Swarm: That is a far more sympathetic response than I had expected, and something I can agree with throughout. I will heed your advice. Thank you. Wnt (talk) 02:06, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- @El C: Do you want to add anything to what I'm saying here? ~Swarm~ 02:12, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, but it still doesn't feel like Wnt actually feels regret or shame for what they've done — and it was regretful and it was shameful. Sure, now that they see which way the wind is blowing, they are coming across as more amenable to reform (makes sense), but fundamentally, I'm just not seeing it. El_C 02:37, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- So is it now to be about the user's emotional state? --Trovatore (talk) 02:44, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- It is, in part, about reflection and honest introspection. El_C 02:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- You yourself might benefit from that, Trovatore. Read what Liz wrote. El_C 02:51, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- While I cannot be sure of others' mental processes, my hypothesis is that in what Liz wrote, and perhaps also in your own reactions, there is a tendency to take the justified horror at the enormous crime that was committed in Christchurch, and to let it inappropriately color one's reactions to other things that are not strictly connected with that crime. We recoil at the shooting; we recoil at the fact that the videographer posted it apparently with approval. I hope and believe that all of us are on the same page on those facts.
- It does not follow, at least not without further argument, that it is shameful to do anything that impedes the video from being consigned to the memory hole. Certainly I do not want to watch it. But it is, in essence, part of the public record, and as Wnt says, there may be elements of it that are useful in understanding certain aspects of the events. --Trovatore (talk) 03:15, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- I get what you're saying, but including this kind of content is strictly dependent on academic considerations. This user was advocating for spreading the video around purely to disrupt Misplaced Pages. Then when you look into their history you can find them adding the video to a talk page, with no stated reasoning. I really can't blame El_C for having alarm bells go off. The optics are terrible, there's repeated attempts to spread the video, with no apparent academic advocacy behind it. ~Swarm~ 03:36, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- Not displaying or linking to that video does not erase it from the historiography in any way. Wnt having linked to it was grossly inappropriate, which is not something I believe is in dispute here by anyone else. El_C 03:49, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- So is it now to be about the user's emotional state? --Trovatore (talk) 02:44, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, but it still doesn't feel like Wnt actually feels regret or shame for what they've done — and it was regretful and it was shameful. Sure, now that they see which way the wind is blowing, they are coming across as more amenable to reform (makes sense), but fundamentally, I'm just not seeing it. El_C 02:37, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- @El C: Do you want to add anything to what I'm saying here? ~Swarm~ 02:12, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
(←) @El C: Of course. This is more than fair. I tried to properly explain the root of the issues, and the proper changes that should be made going forward, but it's your block, and I will not overturn it before you think the user is where they need to be. I just wanted to give you the opportunity to review my assessment and advice as a first step. I feel Wnt has generically satisfied the GAB, but has shown little sincere introspection or understanding. I've tried spelling it out for them. I think all the answers are in my statement. Wnt, please reflect on what I said. I believe you when you say that you can understand and agree with what I'm saying, and that you'll make the changes I suggest. And I'm sorry if this feels like you're being forced to jump through hoops, but you're not being singled out for harsh treatment. A genuine, sincere statement that shows both an understanding of what you did wrong and a convincing assurance that you will not repeat the problematic behavior is what we expect in any unblock request. That means you tell us where you went wrong in your own words, and, as I said, treating offensive content as a policy violation is not convincing because that's not the point. I'd be looking for an assurance that you will not add potentially-offensive/shocking content that holds no encyclopedic value, and if you believe any such content to hold encyclopedic value, you will rationalize and discuss the addition of such content before adding it. I don't think that's asking too much. ~Swarm~ 03:26, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- My 2c:
- I believe that Wnt is completely sincere and well-intentioned in their beliefs given the consistency with which they have expressed them over the years, and is not trying to game the system to get out of the current block.
- However, my reading is that they believe that society has grown too coddled and that the reality of extreme and violent content should be thrust in their faces for its own good; see this and other posts in the section from 2012 or their contribution to Bestgore.com including this edit from 2014 for examples involving such content/argument.
- The problem, as I see it, is that this argument is essentially ideological and universal, as opposed to an argument based on reliable secondary sources for inclusion of extreme content in individual cases. To spell out the difference: we have a strong source-based reason for including "disturbing" content at The Falling Man, My Lai Massacre, Phan Thi Kim Phuc etc. And strong source-based examples and reasons to not propagate depictions of school- and other mass-shootings. Wnt doesn't seem to recognize the difference and the need for wikipedia to follow the example of secondary sources; you'll note that in the 2012 and 2014 diffs linked above, there is no secondary source cited!
- Finally, I don't really think we should be asking Wnt to demonstrate shame or regret. They are welcome to hold on to their ideological beliefs as long as their actions on wikipedia respect the policies and goal of writing an encyclopedia that summarize secondary sources. At the same time, I don't think asking them to simply "rationalize and discuss the addition" of violent content is good enough since that leaves them open to make purely ideological arguments and/or indulge in verbal imagery (refer to the 2012 diff, recent post at WP:FRAM, or the "mother" anecdote in this very section).
- I am too lazy to expand on this but note also problems with Alex Jones-ish posts, of which examples abound in wikispace, especially at User talk:Jimbo Wales.
- All this is to say that if/when Wnt is unblocked it should be with clear conditions to temper their disruptive acts, while encouraging their useful contributions to encyclopedic content, which they are certainly capable of. A possible restriction would be a ban from wikispace and other discussions forums (with the usual exceptions) although I am not certain if that is completely necessary or sufficient. Perhaps @Swarm, El C, Liz, and Trovatore:, or Wnt, have some better suggestions?
- PS: Apologies Wnt for talking so frankly about you in the third-person on your own talkpage; I know it sounds rude but I can't see how to rephrase to avoid it.Abecedare (talk) 04:59, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- I've been mulling over whether to comment here or not, but I'd like to endorse basically everything Abecedare has said above. I recall very bluntly telling Wnt that "masturbating to gore porn does not constitute 'legitimate scholarship'" during the debate over whether the article on the Christchurch shooting should link to the video. Abecedare hits the nail on the head for when and why to include material that may be considered offensive. Mr rnddude (talk) 05:28, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- I agree that "shame" is not the best standard to hold an unblock request to. Neutral policy consideration is the standard that we should hold Wnt to, not morality policing. According to policy, offensive content that holds encyclopedic value is permitted, but this is a highly subjective standard. There can be no blanket presupposition to allow or ban such content one way or the other. I think an agreement that he will preemptively rationalize and discuss such content rather than adding it outright, and only follow through with such an addition when it is supported by the local consensus, is a reasonable moderating check on future problems that is in line with the policy requirements. The next-best alternative would be a hard TBAN on adding offensive content. That would be assuming that Wnt's judgment in terms of offensive content is completely irredeemable. I'm not convinced that even that is necessary. Something like a full TBAN from the Wikispace would not seem to address the root of the issue, which is the overly-liberal introduction of offensive content in subjective situations. ~Swarm~ 05:35, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
Endorse Abecedare's comment above.starship.paint (talk) 06:47, 2 July 2019 (UTC)- Which part do you endorse over my refutation? ~Swarm~ 07:08, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- Oh no. I got confused on some points, I'm sorry everyone. Reading all the above paragraphs, they all got jumbled in my head. I agree with Abecedare and Mr rnddude on
when and why to include material that may be considered offensive
. But I must have missed Abecedare's point about a total ban from Wikispace. I meant to agree with your suggestion, Swarm - to allow Wnt topreemptively rationalize and discuss such content rather than adding it outright
. However, I do agree with Abecedare that Wnt should stop posting conspiracy theories on Wikispace, but I'd prefer a warning (or a topic ban from talking about conspiracy theories?) over a total ban from Wikispace. Anyway, I'm out, don't contact me about this! starship.paint (talk) 07:21, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- Oh no. I got confused on some points, I'm sorry everyone. Reading all the above paragraphs, they all got jumbled in my head. I agree with Abecedare and Mr rnddude on
- Which part do you endorse over my refutation? ~Swarm~ 07:08, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Abecedare: As I said, at this point I don't think "NOTCENSORED" is really a policy any more. In 2012 I posted that diff to Jimbo's page in front of an audience of administrators without even worrying about being blocked, let alone indefinitely. I thought of the diff in the Bestgore article as citing a primary source by the subject about himself, which could be debated in the normal course of article editing. But even in the midst of my ill-considered Fram rampage, I did not dare to post a comparable link to Bestgore, but only suggested doing so, and that was still much too much. User:Stephan Schulz above is telling me that even explaining my personal perspective in response to an admin request about my emotional state is too much. This is not the Misplaced Pages it used to be -- and to be fair, this is not the internet it used to be. The plus side of that for you is that I can say that my days of challenges and conspiracy theories about Misplaced Pages politics are behind me. Now that it is made clear by the block and many comments favoring it that the policy I care about is no more, why should I get worked up about any other?
- Your proposal of a WP space ban disturbs me, since the Reference Desks and WP:Lua are some of the places I was thinking I might still be of use. I think the sources people are complaining about are spread throughout article, talk, and other discussion places fairly evenly. My impression is that what you are mostly concerned about is violent video, wherever I would post it, and also that you regard this as against policy no matter who does it. Why don't you just come up with a way to write more clearly into policy the things you don't want posted? It would be easier than placing restrictions on editors one at a time, and it would avoid giving other editors not yet restricted the idea that these links are acceptable for them. In the meanwhile, as I said, I do understand you regard these links as against policy and I won't defy your policy. Wnt (talk) 20:52, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- So those links were fine once, but now they're not? That is your argument? I'm not sure that's true, but, say it was, it would be to the project's discredit. Again, I was not asking for your emotional state, I was asking for reflection and honest introspection, which I'm disappointed but frankly not surprised is still absent. El_C 21:53, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- @El C: Well, I don't think you would say I'm being dishonest, and I've been introspective enought to get a tl;dr notice and a request to have my talk access revoked. So the question is whether I'm reflecting on what you say. So far from what I could see, you've been saying or at least implying pretty consistently that anyone who posted the archive.org link that I did should be blocked forever, no ifs, ands, or buts. I've said repeatedly that I wouldn't dare post them going forward. Are you asking me to believe that these links are wrong, outside of the sense of them being prohibited on Misplaced Pages? Wnt (talk) 22:28, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- I'm trying to get you to appreciate why so many people are so upset — it's clearly not working. El_C 22:36, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- @El C: They don't usually say why they are upset, so I would only be guessing. Fox News, a major American TV network, still hosts that Jordanian pilot video you redacted recently, so the sentiment is not universal. Some may find the material disgusting, some are worried about claims that these videos lead to "copycats", some think they can defeat bad ideas by stamping out extremist material. I had originally thought that the formal illegality of the shooting video in Australia and New Zealand was the dominating factor that made this different, but I don't think you ever did remove the manifesto from the Christchurch shooting article, and nobody has mentioned it but me. Maybe the biggest thing is that I don't use social media to any significant degree, and I know that they have been restricting their rules every other month, so perhaps there is some acculturation going on I haven't been a part of. I don't understand some, maybe most of it. After I posted the idea I had somebody claiming to have cried for half an hour just from the thought that someone might be able to find the video, and that is truly a mystery to me. But does it matter why I think they don't like the content, as long as I don't use it? Wnt (talk) 22:49, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- I'm trying to get you to appreciate why so many people are so upset — it's clearly not working. El_C 22:36, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- @El C: Well, I don't think you would say I'm being dishonest, and I've been introspective enought to get a tl;dr notice and a request to have my talk access revoked. So the question is whether I'm reflecting on what you say. So far from what I could see, you've been saying or at least implying pretty consistently that anyone who posted the archive.org link that I did should be blocked forever, no ifs, ands, or buts. I've said repeatedly that I wouldn't dare post them going forward. Are you asking me to believe that these links are wrong, outside of the sense of them being prohibited on Misplaced Pages? Wnt (talk) 22:28, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- So those links were fine once, but now they're not? That is your argument? I'm not sure that's true, but, say it was, it would be to the project's discredit. Again, I was not asking for your emotional state, I was asking for reflection and honest introspection, which I'm disappointed but frankly not surprised is still absent. El_C 21:53, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
I believe you. I was hoping for empathy, if not, at least sympathy. But I'd take puzzled apathy if it's the honest truth. I get the sense, then, that, also intellectually —not just in the realm of EQ— you still fail to grasp the gravity of linking to that video. Sure, you realize it's prohibited, but the risk of you trying to push this envelop again at some point in the future, possibly to the detriment of the project's public image or legal liability, that's not a risk I am willing to take at this time. El_C 23:04, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- @El C: Do you really think that the project is in that kind of danger at all, let alone from me? If I posted the link, it would be momentary, and then I'd be blocked again, and what would the point be? There's no use in carrying out a freedom of navigation exercise if there's no freedom of navigation! Anybody on Earth might do the same thing, and I don't think it would be the end of Misplaced Pages - it never has been before. It's not kiddie porn, and the project has had a fair amount of that posted in the past. And I've given you no reason (except the Fram debacle) to think that I routinely violate policy if I know it's a policy. I would think the biggest risk you are taking with this project is in not having a policy that spells out clearly what is prohibited for those among us who might have some trouble recognizing when it's innately wrong to mention an archive.org file on a talk page. Wnt (talk) 23:28, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- Truthfully, I don't think there are that many who share that ambiguity for us to need to spell it out in policy. But it wouldn't hurt, I suppose. El_C 00:19, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
Subsection 3
I could wish for the old Misplaced Pages, but it no longer exists, and it is pointless to try to speak to the dead.
I don't know what old Misplaced Pages Wnt is talking about above. I've been an editor for 15 years (and an admin for 14 of those), and as far as I am able to recollect, displaying or linking to graphic executions was never okay — again, some (iconic) exceptions notwithstanding. At any event, the argument as to Misplaced Pages not being therapy works both ways, in this case. Misplaced Pages is not bestgore and I don't know how healthy it is for the project to have users who approach it not being censored in such a manner.
Anyway, I don't need for Wnt to actually feel shame and regret for their shameful and regretful actions (their emotional state is, indeed, none of my concern), but failing to express reflection and honest introspection about these actions having taken place is a problem. Them merely saying the bare minimum needed to comply with the guide to appealing blocks, or even also agreeing to several proposed modalities that are meant to temper their predisposition to violate WP:OM so blatantly with unencyclopedic, offensive material — sorry, none of that works for me, and I continue to object to lifting the block on that basis alone.
And frankly, I'm surprised there is seemingly such a push to gently guide Wnt toward an unblock, seeing as what they've done is so beyond the pale. They're not the only one conveying longing for an old Misplaced Pages. But I suspect I do so for opposite reasons. El_C 10:37, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- Just one comment from me, just to refute any idea that "Bestgore" is any sort of "real news, just uncensored" site. I've just taken a look (because it's unfair to criticize a site you haven't seen), and it blatantly isn't, as a quick glance at its selection of topics or at any of its captions/descriptions makes perfectly clear. It's a grotesque shock site, aimed at satisfying whatever it is its followers want from it (and I really don't know what that is). Anyone who sees it as any kind of legitimate journalism is, frankly, a disturbed individual. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:15, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Boing! said Zebedee: I really don't think I have ever cited a Bestgore item outside of (a) a talk space conversation or (b) about itself. I suspect all of my diffs about it may have been referred to here by now. On Jimbo's forum I was speaking in a broad, metaphorical, now archaic sense, the way that some used to say that Assange was a journalist. Wnt (talk) 21:25, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, I might have synthesized something in my head after reading your references to bestgore together with what someone else said about the site after following up your edits to the Misplaced Pages article. I am, however, still disturbed by any suggestions that similar material is in any way appropriate for Misplaced Pages, and that prohibition of such material is something new and in opposition to NOTCENSORED. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:13, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Boing! said Zebedee: I really don't think I have ever cited a Bestgore item outside of (a) a talk space conversation or (b) about itself. I suspect all of my diffs about it may have been referred to here by now. On Jimbo's forum I was speaking in a broad, metaphorical, now archaic sense, the way that some used to say that Assange was a journalist. Wnt (talk) 21:25, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- Am going to be off-wiki for the next day and am perfectly happy with the involved admins deciding if/under-what-conditions Wnt should be unblocked. Hope the background I wrote above about the problem with Wnt's editing was of some help. Abecedare (talk) 17:24, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- Wnt, I believe I gave a fully sufficient explanation about the difference between including offensive content because it is of encyclopedic value vs excluding offensive content with little to no encyclopedic value. You initially indicated that you understood this point, but when pressed to restate it in your own words, you've done about the worst you can do. I gave you all the answers. I did not ask for any sort of self-betrayal in the interest of political correctness. I simply asked for you to understand that it's a spectrum and that discussion and consensus may be required. Instead you're continuing to rail on about censorship and the "old Misplaced Pages" that no longer exists. It's not a great look. You could have been unblocked same-day, yet you're seemingly arguing against your own best interest. Seriously. I gave you the answers already. Get serious. ~Swarm~ 07:32, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Swarm: I was able to agree with everything you said, but it doesn't sound like the others do. Abecedare wants me restricted from a large part of Misplaced Pages that I use for many other purposes. I don't think he or the others want me to "include something that is offensive for an academic reason" even if I "reasonably explain the underlying rationale, stay within policy, and avoid needlessly upsetting people." From what has happened, from how people are responding, I don't think I am going to stay unblocked (if I get unblocked) if I start opening up talk page sections asking people if they want to link this kind of video, let alone just adding it with a careful edit summary or a talk page explanation. Failure to realize that is a failure of 'reflection and honest introspection', I think. I didn't mean to dismiss what you said -- I value it, I wish it were true. I am also doubtless committing many strategic errors; I've never been blocked before and I don't know how the process works or very much about what people are expecting. My apologies - I know you are trying to help me with this process. Wnt (talk) 10:21, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
- On consideration, I think I dismissed something that User:El C said much too hastily. He talked about the possibility of some kind of legal action against the project for including the link. My first instinct was to wave a flag-colored sparkler and say no, that could never happen in America; after all, we have been allowed to watch videos of our own soldiers getting decapitated for nearly two decades. But the Assange prosecution illustrates how something deeply wrong, considered unconstitutional for an entire century, can now go forward. There is also the disturbing reality that archive.org, as best as I can tell, seems to have removed the full videos since the time I found them, even though it retains fragments of the video promoting highly offensive conspiracy theories that don't show anyone being killed. That footage is just as illegal with the Chief Censor in New Zealand, so by what standard did archive.org, normally an organization I would trust to preserve content, change its mind? How do I know if some creative prosecutor couldn't find a way to redefine "obscenity", itself an obscenity, to include violence also? If I had actually posted the link in the context of plain out and out mischief, I might well have gone beyond the sort of reasoned academic talk page discussion the Miller test is supposed to be reliable in protecting. And of course, there are an infinite number of other creative theories possible, in a world where so many other countries seem to have changed their core beliefs overnight. As a believer in free speech I should never have been nearly so blithe about the possibility of creating a terrible test case against myself and Misplaced Pages that would harm what I hold dear. For that offense against my own cause, I've decided I owe people here an apology and an acknowledgement of respect that so far I have denied them, because I don't actually know they weren't doing me a favor, even if I never get unblocked. They may have just been the messengers of something beyond their control. The world shouldn't be that way... but there it is. I should have been willing to listen to people. Wnt (talk) 23:13, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
- Look, man, I'm just trying to get you to check the boxes so we can all move on. You don't need to overcomplicate this with further ideological musings. I get that you've never been blocked and you're apparently not even sure if you can be unblocked, but that's not how indefs work. An indef block is as short as you want it to be, all that is required is a suitable unblock request. What is required in such a request is fairly objective, and spelled out in the guide, and spelled out by me here. An understanding of the underlying policy considerations, an understanding of where you went wrong, and a change that you will voluntarily make to prevent the issue from happening again. I'm going by what policy says and what the standard unblock process requires. I'm not worried about abstract ideology or emotion, I am objectively explaining the problem and the appropriate resolution to the problem. I'm not looking for blanket statements, or punitive sanctions, or musings about the way the world is, or even an apology. I will unblock you if you meet the standard criteria for unblocking. That's it. I have spelled out what to do to meet these criteria. It's literally all spelled out. All you have to do is affirm what I said, in a genuine statement that shows that you understand what has already been explained and will make a change to avoid continued drama. You can take it or leave it, but I assure you that it is the correct path. Read the guide for yourself if you don't believe me. Should you meet this standard, any other logical and reasonable policy-based concerns can be considered, addendums can be made if necessary, but ultimately I will guarantee that you will be unblocked. The only thing I don't think I've covered that other people are concerned about is for you to sound human. I mean, someone above has the impression that you "masturbate to gore". Someone else said you lack basic human empathy. I get it, people have morbid curiosity and become desensitized to these videos, and I'm not going to punish you for that. I don't know whether you truly lack empathy or not, but that's no one's place to say. Lack of empathy is an objective disorder that affects ordinary people. It is not a decision to be evil (although it is stigmatized and misunderstood as such). We are not the empathy police. We are enforcers of basic objective standards. I will unblock you over objections that are not in line with policy or demands that exceed the scope of the offense. But a simple acknowledgment that, ideology aside, you can actually comprehend the emotional backlash you've sparked would go a long way. ~Swarm~ 04:46, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
- As an uninvolved editor, I just wanted to tackle what seems the be a major disconnect here.
What I don't understand is why looking at or sharing a video of a terrible injustice being done to them would reflect a lack of empathy.
- Because sharing the video comes across as exploitative. It's being shared & viewed because it's taboo. The thrill of sharing/watching such a video becomes the primary purpose. Or, in your case, using it to disrupt the WMF as part of a cause. That is why people are objecting to its inclusion on Misplaced Pages, along with other videos depicting killings. Such material needs to be handled with care, or else it's simply exploitation of the dead.
- Misplaced Pages isn't improved by adding the video, because we can't provide any valuable commentary beyond "it exists." Any use of that video for information or education has to be handled very delicately, and with guided purpose, or we're right back to this exploitation. It stops being about informing, and becomes about the spectacle or the way it affects the audience. Which brings me to the next point:
How is it empathetic not to be willing to see a person crying, or a person fighting back?
- For one, many victims families aren't going to be suddenly comforted by seeing their loved ones killed, crying, begging for their lives, or even fighting back. Even to people not related to the victims, witnessing brutal murders can be traumatic.
- So the idea that it's less empathetic to refuse to share/view such material is... unorthodox, to say the least. Regardless of how violent our entertainment media can be, we all know that it's just pretend... and even then, some people are uncomfortable watching it. Expecting most people to be alright seeing actual murders is a huge disconnect.
- I work in a healthcare environment. I've seen a lot of deaths, including some very gory ones. And I still don't want to see videos like this one, because I empathize too much with the victims & their families. I don't need to see it to know how awful the experience would be.
- And that's been Misplaced Pages's stance for the longest time. WP:BLP and other policies exist precisely because sharing everything possible can cause more harm than good.
- I've seen you pop up on Misplaced Pages lots of times over the years I've been here. You do good work, but your unflinching stance on censorship has always struck me as naive at best. I wish it hadn't taken this for you to realize that Misplaced Pages was never the bastion of free speech you believe it to be. And I'm hoping this post helps you understand why you've always faced an uphill battle on that front. We can't just consider "is this informative?" but also "what impact does sharing this have on the victims, their families, and our audience?" Weighing those things is not easy, and we can't just treat WP:NOTCENSORED as the only goal. That route causes harm to real people.
- It sounds like now you understand using that video to disrupt Misplaced Pages was never really going to help. Even outside the "power struggle" aspect you mentioned before, it was just going to make things worse. I'm hoping this explanation I've written helps you understand why this particular choice of topic was especially egregious. If that makes any sense, I hope it helps you form your unblock request & find your way forward in the future. — The Hand That Feeds You: 21:12, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
- Amen. Well stated. Compassion is superior to reason for human beings. Every time. Not even close. :::Life is not a video game. People bleed and people die and those who loved them are left deavasted. 2600:100F:B11E:E9B3:4BB:E524:946C:D505 (talk) 02:51, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Draft unblock
@Swarm: Thank you for putting into a lot of effort into trying to find a way forward. There is still a good chance the following is insufficient, so per the guideline I'll ping you to ask if the draft covers everything I need to cover before putting an unblock template on it.
a) I understand that several of my edits to WP:FRAM were highly disruptive and not useful to build an encyclopedia.
b) I understand that Misplaced Pages is a collaborative effort and that I failed to take the very strongly worded comments of fellow editors into consideration several times leading up to this, or to show them proper respect.
c) I understand that there is a large group of editors telling me that links to these graphic videos are excluded by some aspect of BLP policy or ELNEVER, even when used for encyclopedic reasons.
a) I will be more mindful of WP:DE in the future. In particular, it is not my goal to 'make a point' or 'fail to get the point' or otherwise play games with this issue that can only be counterproductive.
b) I will respect the need for civil discussion about contentious article changes.
c) I will consider links to videos or images showing the death of identifiable persons to be against overall Misplaced Pages policy, as evidenced by this block, unless and until I see a strong, widely supported consensus to the contrary. Judging by this discussion, I doubt that is going to happen. (By 'identifiable persons' I mean to exclude anatomical and surgical images of anonymous donors that I think are still widely accepted on the site)
d) I will bear in mind that there are fundamental emotional factors involved here that I don't understand, with a mutual perception of lack of empathy between some like myself and many fellow editors, and that my initial assumptions about why this is happening are unlikely to be accurate.
Going forward: images of death were only a tiny number of my overall edits, so there is still plenty of useful ground that I could cover if given the chance. Wnt (talk) 22:30, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
- So sorry, Wnt. I'm fine with this. I'm still open to unblocking. Just ping the blocking admin and address any outstanding concerns. ~Swarm~ 05:06, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
- Wnt, when you write
even when used for encyclopedic reasons
, I'm wondering if you had a chance to read THTF extensive comment, in which they partially say:Misplaced Pages isn't improved by adding the video, because we can't provide any valuable commentary beyond "it exists."
Other than that, I suppose your draft more or less checks all the boxes. I still have reservations, however, sorry to say. But I'm not going to stand in the way of consensus to unblock, either. El_C 23:23, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
- Wnt, when you write
- @El C: My statement was that it is clear I need to treat the video as against Misplaced Pages policy regardless, so I shouldn't debate about criteria for what I said won't affect that. You can treat it as a hypothetical if you prefer. Wnt (talk) 00:09, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
- I'll repeat more tersely: did you get a chance to read THTF extensive comment? I'm asking because I think it's worth reflecting on. El_C 01:11, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
- @El C: I did read it, and my comment about fundamental emotional factors was based in part on what he said. The things that he and some others are saying carry a broad resonance and provoke wider thoughts about the nature of Misplaced Pages as a whole, but these stray from the currently permitted scope, I think. I cannot deny that using the shooting for a 'political' purpose is, as always, exploitative. Wnt (talk) 01:59, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
- @Swarm: Is there something else I should do? Wnt (talk) 21:21, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
- @El C: I did read it, and my comment about fundamental emotional factors was based in part on what he said. The things that he and some others are saying carry a broad resonance and provoke wider thoughts about the nature of Misplaced Pages as a whole, but these stray from the currently permitted scope, I think. I cannot deny that using the shooting for a 'political' purpose is, as always, exploitative. Wnt (talk) 01:59, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
- I'll repeat more tersely: did you get a chance to read THTF extensive comment? I'm asking because I think it's worth reflecting on. El_C 01:11, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
unblocked
I think Wnt has learned his lesson, so the block no longer serves a useful purpose. I have unblocked you. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 00:35, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
- I questioned this action at the user's talk, they replied a day later that this was "unfair" to this user. I asked that they seek a review of their action in reply, yet note that their talk page says that replies will come in 72 hours. cygnis insignis 04:34, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
- Punitive. At this point, without any further issue, it is not possible to reblock without a sense of it being punitive. I think this is best dropped here. Mr rnddude (talk) 04:38, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
- I did not regard the block of this user as punitive and disagree with the characterisation of the action as administering a punishment subject to parole. cygnis insignis 06:06, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
- Punitive. At this point, without any further issue, it is not possible to reblock without a sense of it being punitive. I think this is best dropped here. Mr rnddude (talk) 04:38, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
Notice of noticeboard discussion
There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.--wumbolo ^^^ 19:47, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- Closed with no action. starship.paint (talk) 07:23, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
Welcome back
I don't know what the fuck you were thinking, but it's water under the bridge. Go and sin no more, as the Jesus dude said. You might think about coming up with an off-wiki venting mechanism, it might save you from some grief. Wikipediocracy is there if you need it, but you will get the shit kicked out of you the first week, be advised. Anyway, all's well that ends eventually. best, tim //// Carrite (talk) 02:20, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
- Welcome back Wnt, I hope you have more success in avoiding trouble. starship.paint (talk) 03:28, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
- Still waiting for you to get back. Hit me up when you do! Just want to know. starship.paint (talk) 10:01, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
Glad you got unblocked, Wnt. I do not agree with the way you have been treated. I hope you will continue to contribute. --Trovatore (talk) 04:25, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
- Welcome back, sorry that took so long, happy to see King handled it. ~Swarm~ 05:38, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
You don't appear to be very active, but since you're officially still here, I am celebrating. It was a devastating blow to have you gone, to be honest. There is a small handful of editors whose presence makes this place bearable, whose insight and opinions never resemble the cookie-cutter echo-chamber bullshit from the masses, and for me, you are one of them. Best, petrarchan47คุก 19:50, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Don't know exactly what you did, not sure I'd have a definite opinion on it anyway - except that it backfired as a revolutionary tactic. Regardless, I hope you readjust to the current reality, and that it is not so odious that you feel the need to throw yourself upon the wheels again - welcome back, be excellent! All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 20:28, 28 September 2019 (UTC).
Nomination for deletion of Module:WikiLink
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A book on brainwashing
I find it interesting. You have done a lot, imo, to promote reality and thinking. That's the best thing anyone can do, these days particularly. Nocturnalnow (talk) 00:36, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
Nomination for deletion of Module:FindFeatures
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Misplaced Pages:Frequently asked questions regarding Jimbo Wales's user talk page
Got any more Q&As to add? Зенитная Самоходная Установка (talk) 10:29, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
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Happy First Edit Day!
Have a very happy first edit anniversary!
From the Birthday Committee, CAPTAIN RAJU 16:43, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
Nomination for deletion of Module:ATA
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Wnt is back!
Welcome back! :) . Count Iblis (talk) 14:59, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
- If you're back, remove yourself from Misplaced Pages:Missing Wikipedians. starship.paint (talk) 07:11, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
A new article you may be interested in
I looked at inlinks to Charlotte Figi and a comment you made at Jimbo's talk came up. Just thought you might be interested that the article exists now. ☆ Bri (talk) 21:46, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
Your draft article, Draft:Amphetamine synthesis
Hello, Wnt. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "Amphetamine synthesis".
In accordance with our policy that Misplaced Pages is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been deleted. If you plan on working on it further and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion by following the instructions at this link. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.
Thanks for your submission to Misplaced Pages, and happy editing. Liz 15:42, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
Nomination for deletion of Module:Hex
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Happy First Edit Day!
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Nomination for deletion of Module:TemplateTools
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WP:MEDRS
Hi. I came across now archived Village pump#MEDRS talk and wanted to let you know that I too faced instanced of misapplication of WP:MEDRS guideline but I haven't a chance to comment on. I suggest you to take a look at this ANI#Canvassing_in_Malassezia request and visit the Wikipedia_talk:Identifying_reliable_sources_(medicine)#Primary_sources_usage. I suggest you to put the latter on your watch list (but please leave no comment in there as the proposal is rather poor). Thanks!
Request
Hello sir, may I get the youtube video with this link allegedly connected with the norway attacks. -->https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQOfH8Dj1mw. Thank you. --121.54.54.150 (talk) 03:23, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
Why Wnt left Misplaced Pages
Problem is, Misplaced Pages doesn't work. Their front page ad for today is for some arena battle video game I never heard of. Their article on Gab (social network) has a literal yellow Jude star next to it in a not so subtle condemnation of occasional failures to censor. They have elaborate networks of Misplaced Pages lobbyists and corporate tie-ins. Their good content is mostly left over from a bygone age. When we look at almost any of the great collaborative projects, they have been compromised to near uselessness by what appear to be paid saboteurs.
Count Iblis (talk) 12:55, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- Link is no longer functional. Someone who's wrong on the internet (talk) 01:35, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
Ways to improve Calyx Institute
Hello, Wnt,
Thank you for creating Calyx Institute.
I have tagged the page as having some issues to fix, as a part of our page curation process and note that:
This page is looking really good but it's in a mostly-list format and could be better served by wrapping all the individual sentences into paragraphs
The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, leave a comment here and begin it with {{Re|Jessamyn}}. Remember to sign your reply with ~~~~. For broader editing help, please visit the Teahouse.
Delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.
Jessamyn (talk) 02:56, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
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Invitation
Hey Wnt, not sure if you ever look at this page anymore, but would be great if you'd come back some day... --Trovatore (talk) 05:10, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
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