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	== ~~Feedback~~ ==		== Sources ==
	]
	]

	Hi {{U\|Rationalobserver}}, I feel bad that I took so long to get to this. It was mostly because of FGM. I felt worn out by the TFA, the reading I had to do before it, etc. But it was also because I wasn't sure how to handle a review of this article. I'm commenting now because I see you've nominated it for FAC.

	I enjoyed reading it, and it's nicely written. One issue is that I think it should maintain more distance from the source material. For example, ] was born in 1902, decades after Irataba died. This means that Waters didn't interview Irataba, so the question is how he was able to reconstruct dialogue. I can only see snippets of Waters, so perhaps he lists his sources. If his source is Mohave oral history, that should be made clear.

	A few other points: I wouldn't use language such as "he did not venture into the unforgiving wilderness," and when you're quoting, consider adding in-text attribution. For example, it's not clear who said "his most trusted sub-chief": Waters or someone Waters interviewed?

	I hope this helps a little, and again I'm sorry for being so slow about it. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 02:35, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

	:Sorry, I meant to add something about the images. If you want them that size, that's fine. But if you remove the upright parameter, that will give you the default thumb size of 220px. ] and ] are very small with upright. But it's up to you. I'm adding this just in case you don't realize that upright shrinks things.

	:Two pages you might find helpful: ] and ]. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 04:49, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
	:: Thanks for your comments, Sarah. I'll resolve these issues now. ] (]) 16:39, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
	Thanks for your comments, Sarah. I've tried to resolve them with , but I'll also address your points here:

	* As you suggested, I've tried to distance the prose from Waters, specifically the quoted material, and to answer your question, he used many of the same sources that I used, including: Woodward and Devereux, both of which included some Mohave oral history in addition to written accounts by Ives, Whipple, Beale, and Rose. Please let me know if this issue is resolved.

	* I also removed the upright parameter from ''most'' of the images, but I think a few of them needed it, as they really crowded out the text at 220px, at least on my 23-inch screen.

	Thanks for taking a look; please consider stopping over at the FAC! ] (]) 17:09, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

	:Hi RO, those edits have helped. I still have an issue with the wording and sourcing. The narrative is presented in places as an eyewitness account without saying who the eyewitness was (e.g. that Ives implored them to get into the skiff, the crew quickly set up camp, and immediately realized they had left food behind). If Ives was the source, the text (or at least the footnote) should say so. If not, how do we know that he implored and that things happened quickly or immediately? (Also, "unknown wilderness of the Grand Canyon" is similar to "he did not venture into the unforgiving wilderness.") It might be helpful to begin with a section that explains the sourcing or historiography. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 17:44, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
	:: Okay, but Waters used Ives's first-hand account, but I'm using Waters as a secondary source, so why would I present material from a secondary source as if it were from a primary one? I'll take another look for unencyclopedic prose, but I'm not sure I agree regarding the sourcing. ] (]) 17:51, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
	:: RE: {{!xt\|It might be helpful to begin with a section that explains the sourcing or historiography}}
	::I'm not sure I understand. I used Waters, who used Woodward, Devereux, Ives, Whipple, Beale, and Rose. How can I include an original analysis of Waters' sourcing method, when all I have is his bibliography? ] (]) 17:57, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

	:::The difficulty is that the article seems to mix myth and history without telling us which is which. I haven't seen Waters (except for snippet view), so I don't know what kind of work it is, but if he doesn't cite his sources in the text or footnotes, that's a problem. You could use the primary sources directly or via academic historians.

	:::By a section on the historiography, I meant one explaining what the primary sources are for this material, and how we came by them, i.e. how does anyone know anything about Irataba? For example, if you look at ], I included one paragraph about the sourcing for the first Marshalsea prison (], last paragraph), and a section about the sourcing for the second prison (]). I think something like that is needed here at the start of the article to give readers a sense of where all this came from. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:24, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
	:::: Are you suggesting that Waters is not a ]? ] wrote the foreword, where he praises the book and Waters's work in general. Are ''all'' sources that do not cite their sources in the text or footnotes also unreliable? ] (]) 18:30, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
	:::: I am not aware of any sources that describe Waters's sourcing method for this book or any others, so how would I cite a section that describes that Waters used all the available primary sources when writing his biographical history of Irataba? ] (]) 18:37, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

	:::::Based only on snippet view, I wouldn't use his book as a source (but I might change my mind once I had access to it). I would use academic historians as far as possible (who usually cite their sources), and I would use the primary sources when appropriate. Ives's report is online . I don't know how much has been written about the Mohave, but I assume historians explain where information about them comes from, and it would be helpful to introduce the article that way. I'll leave it there for now, and you can perhaps give it some consideration. I hope the feedback hasn't been too discouraging. I do intend it to be constructive, but I know (from my own experience!) that these things can be hard to digest. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:53, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
	:::::: Yes, it's been quite discouraging. I've requested outside opinions about the ] of the Waters source at ]. But am I correct that you are equating all Native American oral history with myth/fiction, so that nothing from their oral history can be considered reliable, including reliable secondary sources that draw from Native American oral history? Waters used Ives, so I'm not sure why you are saying I must skip Waters and only use Ives to report what Ives did or said. It sounds like you are suggesting I use ''only'' primary sources, but ] and ] suggest that primary sources ought to be used with care, while secondary sources "provide an author's own thinking based on primary sources, generally at least one step removed from an event. It contains an author's interpretation, analysis, or evaluation of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources", which is exactly what Waters, a highly respected historian and writer did. ] (]) 19:06, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
	:::::::I'm sorry it has been discouraging. I know the feeling and wouldn't have commented if you hadn't asked me to. I'm not equating all Native American oral history with fiction, and haven't implied that. I'm saying that the sources should be identified in the text or footnotes and the writing made more encyclopaedic. But this is just my opinion; others may disagree. I'll leave it there, and I sincerely wish you all the best with it. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 19:52, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
	:::::::: But {{u\|SlimVirgin\|Sarah}}, you haven't really explained ''how'' I could write a section that details that Waters, a secondary source, used primary sources that drew on Native American oral history, or why this is required. Every single biography of Charles Dickens drew on the original bio by Forster, but we can freely cite to Ackroyd and Tomalin even though much of the material in their books is derived from Forster. Why would this be any different? Either Waters is a reliable source or he isn't, and I seriously doubt that ''this book'' would be judged by Vine Deloria as Waters's "best" if it was unreliable. ] (]) 20:36, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
	:::::::::You both seem to be talking past each other, not disagreeing over reliability. Sarah's point is one that I run into in every article, and it's a good one. She's saying that as a reader, the sources aren't explicitly attributed to tell the difference between first and second-hand accounts, and she's given you specific suggestions on how to fix it. Read her comments again. She's not questioning the reliability but rather the scholarly presentation. ] (]) 23:27, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
	:::::::::: I'm just doing my best here, but if Waters is a reliable source ({{!xt\|Based only on snippet view, I wouldn't use his book as a source}}) then why shouldn't I use him? I've been to address concerns about "scholarly presentation". ] (]) 23:55, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Please don't fixate on the RS question. The question is, does the article rely primarily on the opinions of academic historians and primary sources as necessary, and is the reader able to tell the difference either inline or in the footnotes? ] (]) 01:00, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
	:::::::::::: I've , but only you can answer that question. Will you please read the article and look at the references, and then give me your opinion? ] (]) 01:05, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::I'm mobile at the moment running chores due to the holiday, so I can't do it right now. However, you are better off finding someone who is active in the topic area and/or participating in the FAC process, as that will closely align with your goals. The question I posed was more for you to answer and reflect upon, based upon my reading of Sarah's concerns. ] (]) 01:15, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::: {{u\|SlimVirgin\|Sarah}}, I apologize for being overly defensive yesterday. I've read Waters for decades, and it never occurred to me that his writings weren't a reliable source for information about Native Americans. However, after thinking about what you said, and realizing that you know infinitely more about what constitutes a reliable source here at Misplaced Pages than I do, I've copyedited the article to all but exclude Waters entirely. I only used him for once, for a brief part that speaks to Mohave culture, and the article does not rely on him for any important factual assertions. So will you ''please'' take another look, and tell me if your concerns are now resolved? ] (]) 21:56, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
	{{od}}
	{{u\|Viriditas}}, will you please take a look at the article when you get a chance? ] (]) 23:54, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
	:Sure, but since I'm not an expert in this topic area nor active on FAC, I'm not exactly going to help you reach your goal, which is why I recommended finding someone who met one or both of those criteria. ] (]) 01:50, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
	:: I joined ], but it's a ghost town over there. ] (]) 01:52, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
	:::I wonder if part of the problem is that we are coming off of a holiday weekend and are about to go into spring break. ] (]) 01:59, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
	:::: I first posted there , and since that time there have been a total of . ] (]) 16:20, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

	* FTR, Frank Waters is . ] (]) 19:33, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

	==]==
	I've just posted on that article's talk page. Looking at this article, which links to that one, I see that the section "Rose-Baley Party Massacre" uses much of the same language (though I see the sourcing is different). Anyway, cross posting to here as well and again pinging {{u\|Moonriddengirl}}. ] (]) 17:59, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

	P.s this got removed, . Although the sources got swapped out here, I think it's important because much of the language I found in the sources at ] might still be here since this too has a Rose-Baley section. Also, I'm adding another section after this. ] (]) 19:54, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

	== Waters ==

	I realize that much of this article has been reworked in the past few days, but to show what made me wonder, I had a look before the rewrite, probably or thereabouts, and found the issues pasted in below.
	:Article: "The Mohave Desert stretches for miles to the west, but as a child he did not venture into the unforgiving wilderness."
	:Source: "To the west stretched the vast Mohave desert where the boy seldom ventured"

	:Article: "Irataba excelled at archery, hunting game such as rabbits and deer in the mountains to the east."
	:Source: "In the crinkled desert mountains to the east, he hunted rabbits and deer, becoming skillful with his bow and arrows."

	:Article: "he helped his tribe cultivate corn, watermelons, beans, gourds, tobacco, and pumpkins"
	:Source: "would help to plant corn, melons, beans and pumkins."

	:Article: "In an effort to alleviate the intense heat of summer, he covered his body with river mud, which also helped to keep insects away, and conserved energy by resting in a thatched hut made from willow branches known as a ramada"
	:Source: "In the blazing heat of summer, he would plaster his head and naked body with mud to keep away insects and laze in the shade of a willow-thatched hut, or ''ramada''.

			An older diff with many helpful sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Irataba&oldid=658900138#Posting_some_sources_here
	I won't do more because it's hard with snippet views, but his is only from the very first section of the article. ] (]) 19:58, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
	: First off, none of these remain now, so this is irrelevant. But I also don't see ''any ''of these as problematic, and this opinion is based on my extensive discussions with {{u\|Moonriddengirl}}. I'll wait to see what she says, but I think you are making a big mistake trying to prove that I have a problem with paraphrasing at the same time as accusing me of being a sock-puppet. You are wrong on both counts, and this is borderline harassment now. ] (]) 20:03, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

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GA Review

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Irataba/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jaguar (talk · contribs) 23:45, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Taking this review as requested - should have this to you within a day or two ☯ Jaguar ☯ 23:45, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it reasonably well written?
A. Prose is "clear and concise", without copyvios, or spelling and grammar errors:

B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:
Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
A. Has an appropriate reference section:

B. Citation to reliable sources where necessary:

C. No original research:
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. Major aspects:

B. Focused:
Is it neutral?
Fair representation without bias:
Is it stable?
No edit wars, etc:
Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
Overall:
Pass or Fail:

Initial comments

"but the Mohave did not believe his fantastic story" - sounds a little informal, I think this can be cut safely

I agree; removed. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

The lead summarizes the article well (an important part of the GA criteria), but I notice the only section missing from the lead is content from the Rose-Baley Party massacre section?

Agreed and done. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

"The Mohave Desert stretches" - why not Mojave Desert?

Both Mojave and Mohave are acceptable spellings of the word, but I've chosen to use Mohave consistently throughout. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

"Irataba excelled at archery, hunting game such as rabbits and deer in the mountains to the east" - doesn't make grammatical sense here. Was there meant to be something after "hunting game(s)"?

Hunting is a verb here, and game is a noun that refers to rabbits and deer. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

"Ives was leading an expedition to the Grand Canyon in a steamship named the Explorer" - should Explorer be italicized if it's the name of a ship? I could be wrong as in some cases it's different

I think you're right, so I've italicized them. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

"And so, with his services no longer needed, he returned home to the Mohave" - is this referring to the Mojave Desert?

I've clarified this as Mohave villages. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

The opening of the second paragraph in the Turning point section sounds like a story! "The sub-chiefs remained silent, and so Cairook continued" - this part could be re-worded slightly

I agree; fixed. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

"they burned his body, hut, and belongings according to tradition, "as was proper"" - what is "as was proper" meaning here?

Clarified with "for a Mohave head chief". Rationalobserver (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Jaguar, I believe I've now addressed your above concerns. Thanks for the excellent review, and please let me know if there is anything else I should do regarding the GAN. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

References

No dead links

On hold

This is a very nice article; well written, comprehensive and also well sourced. I couldn't find anything wrong with the references and the prose issues I mentioned above were only relatively minor. I also apologise for leaving this review late as I'm having troubles with my PC, so I should have the other one to you by tomorrow. Anyway, I'll leave on hold for at least the standard seven days (although it won't need that) until they have all been addressed. If you have any questions please let me know. Thanks! ☯ Jaguar ☯ 22:29, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Close - promoted

Thank you for your improvements made! I'm confident that this article now meets the GA criteria so I'll promote this. I should have the other review complete shortly ☯ Jaguar ☯ 18:16, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Sources

An older diff with many helpful sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Irataba&oldid=658900138#Posting_some_sources_here

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