User talk:Geogre: Difference between revisions

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			{{not around\|3=29 July 2009}}
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			'''Essays'''

			It's new! It's exciting! It's an idea whose time came months ago: ''']''' Continuation: ]. If RFA is "broken," let's not make it FUBAR: ] It's newer! It's not exciting! ] My attempt at impersonating Marshal MacLuhan: ] ]: My first attempt at hip artwerkx. ]: People are still getting blocked by "unanimous" IRC consent. ] An essay on how to tell if you may already have the qualifications to be an edit warrior and not even know it!
	]

			'''''New''''': ] explains pretty well why Misplaced Pages lost ''three'' of its most serious content contributors to salve the egos of some few people and save the playtime of those same few people. ]: An explanation of "What happened" during the IRC arbitration case, and why it cost Misplaced Pages far, far more than it gave. ]

	It's new! It's exciting! It's an idea whose time came months ago: ''']''' Continuation: ]. If RFA is "broken," let's not make it FUBAR: ]

	'''''New Messages'''''		'''''New Messages'''''
	== Great Article--Where can I find more? ==

			{\| cellpadding=3 cellspacing=0 style="float:right;text-align:center; border:solid 1px blue; background:PapayaWhip;margin=5"
	I read your article on Latitudinarianism, along with the lengthy discussion on the article's Talk page. I'm attempting to get a handle on the religious climate in which Samuel Johnson lived, and was hoping you could suggest a good book on the subject. Thanks again for the high-quality article. --] 09:42, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
			\| align=center\|<big>Talk archives</big><br>]
	:Thank you! The subject is complex. Books about Johnson's own views of religion exist, but they tend to suffer from assistant professor syndrome. The effects of the Bangorian Controversy may well reach out that far, in that the Bangorian controversy emerges from Hanoverian low church positions and Whig low church constituencies. G. B. Hill's ''Johnsonian Miscellanies, I'' contains some of Johnson's written prayers. C.F. Chapin, ''The Religious Thought of Samuel Johnson'' (1968), J. Gray, ''Johnson's Sermons'' (1972) are more respectable and less theoretical than most, and both will give some glimpses of the atmosphere around Johnson. I'd say you should avoid Macaulay until you already understand things from Johnson's point of view (Macaulay wrote the 1911 EB article, indirectly, and his views are properly called "the Whig history"). My problem with the recent stuff on Johnson's morality is that it tends to want to joust with the 60's naivette and positivism, which is fine in its way but usually less constructive than parasitic. I can point at stuff on Bangorian controvery, if you'd like, and there are CoE church histories, but I get out of my field with them. ] 10:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
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	::He seems to have been quite keen on ] (hint). Honestly, how can you resist a macaroni parson? -- ] ] 10:32, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

			'''Massages'''
	:I can't, especially since Gerald Howson wrote about him. Dodd gets a lot of ink, though, or Johnson's support of him does. The problem is that those who speak of it are of two camps. One is the "friends of Johnson were special" group, and the other is the "Johnson was a fuddy duddy and moral tyrant." To step in at all is to have to deal with The Johnsonians. I have kept my head above water and my real name from the mud only slightly by knowing when to say nothing and sometimes doing it. Johnsonia is more contentious and popular than Austenia, and no one wants to say that Austen is a jerk. Johnson is the 18th century's Bronte sisters: a figure who attracts passionate writing and defense of views. I prefer Swift, where nothing you say can be the whole truth and nothing you say can be wholly wrong, and Pope, where you can stick to a couplet and not be molested by your peers. ] 10:40, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

			== For the children ==
	::Oh, and defending Pope is very much ''not done'' these days. Sadly, Pope is heading for Johnson territory, where it is absolutely de rigeur to dismiss him. (Look what just happened at ]. I don't blame the person making the changes, quite. She's simply doing what contemporary critics do, even contemporary critics who privately know better. Everyone is a f*cking "transgressive figure" or part of the problem. Pope used to be a nice, quiet corner to dwell in, but now he's Part of the Problem or a troubled midget. I'm not interested in him as a troubled midget, so.... Anyway, Johnson's defenders still have the upper hand, but there are many, many, many who want to make him beg for mercy. How dare he not transgress? Didn't he know that transgressing gender definitions and body boundaries in the construction of space was a vital anti-colonial gesture of liberation? Poor, benighted fool to be so sure of himself!) ] 03:37, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

			For the many readers, there is a new blog entry. (If this makes no sense to you, then ignore it.) ] (]) 10:38, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
	:Thank you for the book tips. The bonus information on Dodd, the Bangorian controversy and your assessment of the current state of scholarship are more than I could have asked for. If I might weigh in with my thoughts on Johnsonia as a very recent (and therefore still naive) obsever: some of the Johnson criticism I've found to date has been well-reasoned and well-cited, but I've never read so many critics willing to eschew certain basic steps of argumentation. The assertions made in most of the papers I've read in the last three months are excessively bold and poorly-founded, with arguments riddled with fallacious reasoning. I hope these are just the early judgments of a newcomer who has failed to discover the most valuable writing in the field. --Pschelden 10:22, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

			== For the adult-ering ==
	Aha, well, what you're seeing is sort of endemic. We're all trained to know every secondary on our subjects before going on, and everyone used to make every student read certain core texts (Bate, a few others), so critics now begin their careers in the middle of a conversation. Each assumes key pieces of old arguments, whether those are theoretical ones or prior critics or those key scholars, and then add their dissenting murmurs. The same is true of the few Pope folks left and the Swiftians. More, though, graduate students are more and more training themselves in a theoretical approach ''first'' and then looking for authors who will fit the outlook. That's not actually new, mind you. People have, for decades, had some new angle and then looked for the works that will fracture when struck from that angle best. The psychoanalytic folks went looking for authors who seemed to fit Freud's categories, and Marxists looked for those who would seem to protest emerging capitalist structures, but when the theoretical perspectives are more and more exclusive and more and more licensed, the texts that will fit grow more and more low profile or the conclusions reached look more and more bizarre. Again, this is not because of "theory" but because of what people ''do'' with it. Johnson, last I looked, was getting exposed to ], which is fine, except that people were being rather hamfisted with it. Anyway, there are some very solid critical texts in Johnsonia, and it's not just that everything new is bad (some of it is very fine), but the old "most of everything is junk" rule applies. There are solid critical texts being fashioned, but they're always rare. ] 12:42, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

			I would like input from the people who have seen my ideas for how to form a council to advise on the future. I've written some up, and I've sent them to a few people via e-mail. Should I post them here? ] (]) 18:52, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
	==Heh heh heh heh heh==
	Terrific, Geogre. Love it. :-) I love the way all the buildup tends to the grand, crashing conclusion "'''you're bored'''". :-D ] \| ] 21:43, 1 November 2006 (UTC).
	:Thank you. I thought of one phrasing improvement. Instead of "extrusion or recession of embryology," I thought perhaps, "embryology's dealing of an innie or an outie" to undercut the high seriousness of "body" criticism would be better. Also, there was a typo. It should have been "hope or doom to speak," not "seek." Anyway, it was, I thought, a novel use of Berryman's poem about drunken ennui and the sort of insufferability of the artistic sensibility to itself. (And yoking Wilt Chamberlain to Aggripina the Younger....) Anyway, I keep drumming for readers because I did think it a nice doo-dad, and I'm glad you liked it. ] 03:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

			:I'm interested too, Geogre -- please post here (or shoot me an e-mail). We seem to be coming unglued rather badly, at least in the matter of governance, and I fear the process is accelerating. ] ] 19:12, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
	==Since you're more familiar with him than I am...==

			Initially, I was concerned that my name is too "big." I don't mean that I am, but rather that there are people who will oppose anything simply if my name is near it. I had preferred the ideas to come out anonymously or from several directions, because I think they're good (well, I would) and should answer our needs without introducing new griefs. I'll post 'em here by tomorrow, I suppose, and, wiki-style, leave them for anyone to adapt as they see fit. ] (]) 21:09, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
	..care to take care of Policratus for me? I can't find the proper AN/I thread. --] <small>]</small> 21:00, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
	*I've posted links on FAC, but what we're looking at is your general poltergeist editor. Disruption would be a valid grounds for blocking, after a warning and repetition of the POINT stuff he's doing. ] 21:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

			:I've noticed, at least in the past three years or so, that popularity on Misplaced Pages negatively correlates with content contribution, and sometimes even with integrity. But don't quote me: I'm just a nasty old fool. And people skilled with words are not always popular, for we are after all writing an encyclopedia, where words are important, and envy is more implacable than hatred (La Rochefoucauld was right about everything). But I'll shut up now. ] ] 21:30, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
	== Strunk and White ==

			Well, see below for the big kahuna idea. I really, really don't care who gets credit for it. Let Kelly Martin take credit for it, if she wants, so long as they do get a policy council and get it in something like what I've described. You know, I was reflecting, the other day, when I was explaining why I don't need Misplaced Pages and it doesn't need me anymore, that it's not the same thing as it was when I heard a call on National Public Radio for over-educated, under-employed people to add stuff. I remember hearing that, when I was working as a librarian in a closed library. I thought it was genius that they were taking advantage of all the ABD's and grad students in the world, but those people are now the ones Misplaced Pages doesn't want. -Bot operators with less personal skill than their creation are "mediators," and "cool" is a long comment. Theses are all original research. Footnotes dominate here, where they don't even exist in academia, and people expect a citation to "the Earth is the third planet from the sun." O tempore, O mores. (But John Gay said envy's a sharper spur than pay for wits; it's a cudgel for those without wit.) ] (]) 22:08, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
	I got my copy of Strunk and White, read it straight through, and refer to it constantly. Thanks for the tip—I told my mother (who has had a copy for years) that she ought to be ashamed for not showing it to me before. Anyway, could you give some feedback on my prose suggestions on ]? I'm doing my best to get better at this copyediting thing, and could use some help =). Thanks! --]<sup>]</sup> <small><font color="brown">]</font></small> 22:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

			== How to ''get'' and structure an advisory council ==
	==Re: deletion review==
			''What you will need for this project'': One Misplaced Pages, an estimate of a representative sample of active editors, and several stewards. You will also need an Initiator. That's YOU, and hopefully you are plural, not singular.

			1. Outline a set of criteria that would make a person qualified -- experience with all elements of Misplaced Pages, breadth of edits, calm, intelligence. Think about the criteria very, very carefully and word them even more carefully. This is the one place to be excruciatingly careful, to get a great deal of input, and to be sure that the end goal is always in mind. That goal is ''wise policy'', nothing else.
	{{cquote2\|"'Hunting' is a thing we do when we're hungry, not when we're trying to build, IMO. We need to prune the tangles, but crusading never has ended well for anyone that I'm aware of."\|Geogre}}
	Is it okay if you're my new hero? <span style="font-family:monospace"> -- ]<sup><font color="black">]</font></sup></span> 01:13, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

			::''Why: Criteria keep people from wandering, and most people will be more honest, if they're given qualities to assess than if they're asked who they think is best. It's one of those paradoxes of evaluation that's pretty well known in business and education. This is why, for example, most employee and educational assessments are structured. ''
	:-) Sure. No need to worry: I'll do something villainous sooner or later, and I always keep spare feet of porcelain. ] 02:28, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

			2. Ask editors to recommend '''someone other than themselves''' according to those criteria, rating the person on a 1-10 on each. The recommendations go to a group of coordinators or the stewards. They are not posted openly, and any person advocating or discussing voting or canvassing for members to the council will be in violation of ], including on IRC and e-mail. We will have to rely upon honor, but Misplaced Pages was founded on such principles.
	== Infoboxes - request for comment ==

			::''Why: Obvious, really. The idea is not to be competing, but rather looking for elements of trust. This cuts down on some of the, "Oh, well, that person is evil" stuff. Obviously, it leaves big weaknesses, but step 3 can help forefend. Additionally, prior and future attempts stall because of politics and personalities and self-love and self-importance. Provided that alternate accounts are not involved, this should avoid that to some degree, and since these are simply ''sent in'' rather than posted publicly, it will help. We don't want cadres and factions and points of view trying to fight. We want wise policy and we want trust. Have people assess ''for'' someone, not against.''
	As someone who has produced and contributed to a large amount of articles, including many featured articles, I was wondering if you would have the time to comment at a discussion on infoboxes, or just comment on infoboxes in general. The discussion I'm involved in is at ] and my thoughts mainly involve how best to present material in an article. I'm partly asking for comments from others because the sentence ''"Just because science is a thinking-person's sport, doesn't mean we need to get precious about it and treat it differently from ball sports."'' might provoke a rash response from me about the use of flags in infoboxes. See also ] and ] and their talk pages. Any comments would be great. Thanks. ] 06:36, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

			3. Get a list of the top 60 finishers and then make them candidates for consideration listed on a namespace page by the stewards. '''There will be positively no statements by the candidates, and no oppose votes.''' Instead, there will be a two week assessment period, during which editors will, again using the criteria, give 1-10 scores on the various criteria for the sixty persons listed.
	:Geogre, you may also want to look at the suggestion for an "Infobox Professor" at ]. ] 07:57, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

			3a. Selection will not be a balance of oppose and support or anything so compromised. Instead, the stewards will have determined a '''representative sample of the editing population''' and divided that by ten. No candidate will be successful without an aggregate score above that mark (this functioning like ''quorum'').
	'''Good grief!''' Is there a carbon monoxide leak in the Wiki Team Bus? People sure seem to be hallucinating. You know what the flag bit reminds me of? Philosophy World Cup from ''].'' Greece vs. Germany, with Archimedes scoring the game winner. "In news this week, Enrico Fermi has been traded to the US for one Modernist poet." Unflippinbelievable, and this is beyond the general tag and box mess. ] 12:52, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

			3b. If a person sees a very serious reason for disqualification, he or she will inform the stewards and coordinators. ''Disqualification criteria are that the person will be likely to act in a private, national, or special interest rather than a wide, international, or community interest.'' Disqualification will have nothing to do with "conflict" or "drama" or even "policy violations" of the candidate, as it is not up to the stewards or coordinators to tell the project who it trusts. However, if a person has a vested interest or a conflict of interest or has evidence of a private desire that trumps the general, then that would be a reason for disqualification.
	Oh, and I'll wade in/weigh in after my wits are with me and I'm a bit more awake. I've tossed my brick into the still waters of the University project talk page, and I didn't like the way it read. I began with something a bit more "you're dumb" than is helpful. We really have to avoid antagonizing, and I missed my own cue there. ] 12:54, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
	:Thanks. I like the Monty Python reference. Incidentially, the infobox there is OK. There is also something about this at ] if you want to put something there as well. I'd also be interested in links to those places where you have written about this before, if you can remember them. ] 13:15, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

			3c. The coordinators and stewards simply tabulate the scores. All parties are prohibited from revealing or discussing results on any medium until the final 60 are posted.
	The ''nice'' place that I've written about it, where I tried to be rational is at ], which is linked at the top of my talk page as the "tags and boxes player's guide." I wanted to avoid these sorts of conflicts by trying to come up with a guideline where we could decide when a Project takes precedence over an author's wishes. Most authors won't care, probably, but some care a great deal. ] 13:27, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

			::''Why: This council will not have "power" to harm or help people, so the idea that a person on it will get to be important is silly. When matters are "tied" in the minds of the stewards and coordinators, the presumption should be for safety/disqualification, but the criteria must be solely oriented toward communal/private interest and wisdom/folly. A wise thought from an unpleasant person is worth a dozen banal platitudes. Secrecy is vital, because any hints about how things will going, especially on non-portable, non-transparent media like IRC and e-mail, will result in "votes" and hate fests.''
	:Ok, I've tried to offer some new arguments on the Scientist page. I also tried to stay general and avoid the personal in all ways, and I wouldn't have been able to do that at all, since it seems to be a one-editor campaign, had I written in the morning. ] 21:37, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

	::I'll go and have a look. Thanks. I'm slightly embarassed that you had to remind me of your page about infoboxes and tags, as I read it and commented on the talk page some time ago. I just completely forgot about it! :-) ] 21:56, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

			4. The result of the assessment will be a council of '''TWENTY''' people. Of the twenty, five will serve at a time for one month periods. Membership will rotate every month.
	:My, my, but "scientist" is exalted. Goodness gracious, but it must be a rare thing to know one, as they are masters of logic as well as a paying vocation. I thought I knew boatloads of them, but none of them would have put himself so far forward or described her profession as "scientist." Well, but I am done with that foray, though I do think I enumerated some sound generally applicable points on boxing up lives. ] 21:23, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

			::''Why: This may be the most vital part of the plan. By having the groups rotate, it prevents personalities from dominating, so no one person can bully or dominate the rest. Additionally, it keeps one person or five people from becoming "important" or thinking they have power of any sort. All of the anxiety about the council being a "government" or being "power" or being a "revolution" should be put to bed instantly by the knowledge that it will be a continually shifting set of persons.''
	::Thanks anyway. I'm interested to see that you describe yourself as a philologist. I've spent time debating with people over how the approach to philology has in the past (maybe it still is) been something that can only be described as scientific. My interest in philology, in case you are interested, has come from my interest in ] and his works. ] 00:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

	:Well, I figure I don't need to be more precise than that ''in that debate.'' I can't see how it would benefit him/her to get a chance to trot out the old false dichotomies about "science" and "literature." I'm a philologist, but philology is everything from Classicism to literary criticism. I.e. it's fully as vague as "scientist." My point, which I'm not sure will be understood, is that being a scientist is like being an intellectual: it's a descriptor, but not a job title. When I was young, I was all over Tolkein, and then I set him aside, only to hit him again when learning Anglo-Saxon and studying medieval English literature. I've come back to him, but uneasily. His trilogy was the most important group of books in my teen years, and it taught me to raise my demands for literature. Now that I've read some of the originals that gave him ideas (the Volsungssaga -> Gotterdamerung -> Hobbit/ring is a source) and re-read him, it's all a bit complicated. You should read the sagas, if you get a chance. Some of them are a ton of fun, with Njal's Saga being the best of the best of the best. ] 02:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	::Did you ever get as far as the other works by Tolkien? Specifically his essay ]? That explains some of his views on his writings, and what the sources were, specifically the idea of the cauldron of story. Anyway, I see you will have more questions to deal with over the next few weeks, so I'll wind this down now, but thanks for the background. I'll definitely try and read some of the original literature. I want to have a crack at ] sometime. ] 21:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

			5. '''Method:''' The council should appoint or seek representatives to speak for separate viewpoints on a given issue. These "champions" or representatives will present arguments for their position, arguments against alternative positions, along with careful rebuttals of claims against their position. They will not involve themselves in direct, interlined conversation with champions/representatives of other points of view on council pages. The council will review all cases, plus any volunteer cases ("amicus briefs"), and submit questions to champions. They will then fashion their own policy recommendation(s).
	''Beowulf'' is a blast, and I recommend ]'s translation over all others, actually. Oh, there are much better notes practically anywhere, but it's the first really naturally poetic translation I've read, and that includes translations by other poets. Really, see ], though: it's a ''hoot!'' It's not very fairytale-ish. I never did read Tolkein's other works, no, although, as I said, I met him as an Anglo-Saxonist. I recently tried to read ''],'' and I was stunned, truly stunned by the amazing writing, but I also found it too detailed and slow for my jaded eyes. ] 21:44, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

			::''Why: Again, we've seen death by argument too many times to count, and we especially see the routine "forest for the trees" sort of argument that Misplaced Pages is famous for. No one gets anywhere when discussing policy because every single person needs to offer his opinion, even if it's almost identical to the twenty opinions just above. All of the "me too" and the "yeah but" stuff gets so thick that no one can support anyone or any thing. If the council wants to actually review and fashion policy recommendations (only recommendations), then it needs to basically '''research''' policy alternatives. They can find the passionate true believers of the sides and let them get all the best ideas from their side together and speak with one voice, and then they can also listen to anyone who walks by who happens to have thought about things. Additionally, many times our best thinking is ''not found'' among the advocates, because people have gone away from an issue in disgust. Open the issue of infoboxes, and you'll see hundreds of editors who hate them but gave up arguing. The point is that the "champion" method and the "amicus" system allows clear presentation and consideration for the council.''
	== Erich Heller ==
	* {{On AFD\|Erich Heller}}
	] 10:47, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

			6. When the council concludes its deliberations, it makes a '''policy recommendation to Misplaced Pages''' that Misplaced Pages must approve. It is not automatically policy, but it is also not for arguing about. It is an up or down vote, with a '''presumption of approval.''' This means that any proposal that garners quorum and an approval rate of 67% or more will be adopted.
	Thanks for the word. That user's private world really doesn't belong on a public project. ] 12:48, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
	:I have voted to delete the article as well as all userpage forks. ] \| ] 00:44, 7 November 2006 (UTC).

			::''Why: If this is a thing where the council makes a big RFC, the result will be "no consensus" to everything. Instead, the council should get a bit of a break, so that a council recommendation simply needs approval (say a 2/3rds majority, with quorum in place). If it goes to Village Pump where every person gets a brand new opinion, then we'll have every person trying to speak for the novelty of speaking, and then we'll get reiteration, and then....''
	== Ring meet hat ==

			===What to do with these?===
	A stunning development: I entered myself into the lists of ArbCom candidates. I therefore archived this page, in case questions come rolling in. It was already 113 Kb, for pity's sake. ] 21:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
			Use 'em. Claim 'em as your idea, if you want. I don't care. I just think it's a good idea, and I think it's a damn sight better than ArbCom picking their favorite warriors or votes or some other rot. Tell me, honestly, if I haven't avoided the problems.

			The point is, ''there are ways of doing these things, people,'' if we just stop thinking in terms of power and appointing ourselves demigods. ] (]) 21:59, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
	:Election? Whowhatwhere?? -- ] ] 22:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
			:Thanks for that Geogre - I've pasted it to , on my way out.......--] (]) 17:34, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

			::I hope it does some good. I don't care about the credit, but it seems to me that one of the reasons Misplaced Pages has been doomed is that the project is a good deal more socially adventurous than the people at it. While ''it'' does all kinds of interesting things to notions of authority and control, ''they'' keep looking for authority and control. It's as if they're here, but they don't believe in it.
	::Great news! Aloan ''et al'' see: ]. Maybe others could be encouraged to run? ] ] 23:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC) P.S glad you got rid of that darn bird, every time I tried to read your page, I had an ] ] which caused me to spend long hours wasting my life staring vacantly at my computer screen.
			::If we managed to get 100,000 articles and to move up to the top 20 in Alexa with just people and no freaking out about power, then I'm going to bet we can negotiate among ourselves to find the possible and impossible solutions for policy, too, so long as no one gets to be in charge. (There are two ways to win. One is a dictator. The other is a monastery. I've never heard of a monastery accidentally wiping out the population of a country before.) ] (]) 19:08, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
	:::Could not agree more on the bird. Painful, truly painful. ]<sup>]</sup>
			:::Yeah. Of course all the people here exist in the real world within structures of power and authority - more acutely for the kids of course, so it's hardly a surprise that they bring shackles of the mind with them to this place. Look forward to your paper G - buzz me when it's published will you? --] (]) 19:43, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
	: Found it - the snappily titled ]. -- ] ] 23:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
			::I guess I gave too much of a preview, there, but, of course, that's what it's all about. The historical moment. No one is to be blamed for being in a historical moment, but when the reason they never look above and beyond it is neediness and personal psychology, it can get really distasteful. I would ''love'' to have real surveys of Misplaced Pages administrators to make my case, but no one can get such surveys. Anyway, I'm writing, forever writing, and the thing is a monster. It's taking forever to get down, and then it will take a while to trim and dress up, and then I'll have to find the right outlet for it. I'll let you know, though. ] (]) 00:12, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
			:::Don't these paradigm shifts usually have some kind of Charismatic Leader, some agent of change? Or at least, some voices in the wind, from the same direction? Cometh the hour, cometh the man. Unfortunately ]. <small>up to Lexington......hmmm hmmm.</small> Your fundamental material for the historical moment though, is still pretty much the same homo sapien of 200,000 years ago. "'''Fred.F.Stone''' likes hunting, screwing, acceptance and problem solving for profit, will gladly bash neighbour in pursuance of these, but recently finds more profit in cooperation." Whatever the future holds, it would be surprising if it wasn't affected by some abstracts of those fundamentals. In short, to overcome neediness and personal psychology, aren't crowds usually invited to put them aside in favour of he 'lofty purpose'? WP might have the lofty purpose, but somehow it rewards the needy and sick - hardly Darwinian, but perhaps the societal aspects of this place do have a use after all. ] (]) 00:48, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
			:As I told a friend, recently, I have ] dentures, but they're fitted on ] gums. The great man theory's problem is that, after ], he inevitably turns ] or nasty. The odd thing is that the Great Man is, interestingly, not at home in a real Darwinian model, and yet it seems to fit so well with our concepts of the "primitive" that we forget that every time, in history, that we see a great man arise, he is promising to lead us boldly to the future, to ] of the past and make the trains run on time (by changing the time tables to match their departure and arrivals).
			:I'll have to go with e-mail on the rewards of neediness. I think Misplaced Pages is curiously designed for that. There is a particularity about this project that attracts and promotes particular sets of psychological profiles that are very ill suited to analysis. In essence, I think Misplaced Pages is a second life, and people who are looking for a chance to reconstruct and who are ''seeking recompense'' for the wounds and grievances of the first life are going to devote their energies toward the reconstruction and mirroring of the social orders that "went wrong" in reality. Unlike ], Misplaced Pages is an actual do-over for a good many people, and therefore one has varying degrees of attraction based on varying degrees of "wrong" suffered. ] (]) 10:29, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
			::I'm not so sure about the 'great man' not being at home in the Darwinian model. Certainly it worked for Genghis Khan - what percentage of Asia now carries his genes? 1 in 12? . It certainly didn't do JFK's chances of finding a date any harm either :-) <small>An interesting question is, if Obama delivers on the promise invested in him, will that be a competitive advantage for his children?</small> I'm not so sure about the ''inevitable'' corruption of 'great leaders' either (where's Luther King, Gandhi or Mandela in that model - apart from 2/3rds of them having the sense of timing to die at the 'right' moment?). My Grandparents are still firmly of the opinion, that without Churchill to demonstrate the bulldog spirit, to remind us of our national traits and to buck us up with brilliant rhetoric, we'd be lost by now. It's speculative of course, maybe we could have done better than the bad-tempered depressive alcoholic with a boy's-own-adventure sense of military strategy (the nation certainly thought so in peacetime), but leadership is not to be dismissed so glibly I think - that generation is still marked by the tangible excitement of having experienced a nation truly pulling together. Maybe what's really missing at WP is an external threat - but now I'm sounding like Rumsfeld - lawsuits anyone? In any event, it's not cohesion we need, but values embedded in the system that serve our purpose better - an encyclopaedia is a strange place to find systemic anti-intellectualism.

			::Really though, aren't we all fundamentally motivated by selfishness? Even if I devote my life to charity, I feel better, I'm rewarded in some way. I try to remember that about people's motives, it makes me generally less disappointed in people :-) The long term trouble with Marxism, in my v. humble and uniformed view, is it appeals to idealism. Idealism can sublimate these selfish desires in the short term, because the idea of being part of 'something new and consequential', works as a reward in itself, not to mention the reward of love/respect/acceptance from being part of the 'group'. But in the long term, we revert to more petty and prosaic behaviours. That doesn't deny though that lifting our heads once in a while and running after someone or some group with vision is an entirely ]. But, as you say Geogre, your essentially un-clubbable, so you'll probably see that differently to your ovine peers --] (]) 13:19, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
	You might want to prepare yourself for the standard candidate questions being posed by AnonEMouse. See ]. That is the questions on another candidate's page, but the questions should be put on your question page eventually. ] 23:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
	:Hey - I have questions too, although the Mouse's probably subsume mine. Good luck. Regards, ] 00:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
	::Ahhhhh. There you go. ] \| ] 00:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC).

			==Sauce for a gander==
	Oh noes, the bird! What happen? Never mind, let's all have a glass of bubbly in honor of Geogre's candidacy! ] \| ] 00:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC).
			There's a surprisingly interesting and cordial conversation going on about reliable academic sources, which you might be interested in bringing your laser scalpel to. --] (]) 18:44, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
			:I've tried, but the problem is that, although they're all on the right track, they're falling victim to Misplaced Pages argument. One can find exceptions to everything. There are always going to be peer reviewed bits of horse hockey, and there are going to be eminent people who lose their minds. The ''general guideline'' is sound, but once we start trying to use general guidelines as if they were predictive laws without employing individual consideration, it's hopeless. The problem is that we are never going to shed ourselves of someone trying to say, "Oh, but there are books supporting my crank view, and they're from academic presses." To see where things get '''really''' hot, look at the nationalism wars. The fringe science stuff is tame in comparison. In those cases, you have the most prestigious presses of two nations offering up officially sanctioned accounts that say opposing things, and then, here at Misplaced Pages, we get bloody battles, with both trying to throw fecal matter at the other's press and universities and nation. The Russian/Polish "arguments" are crimes in progress, for example, and they are entirely insoluble without saying, "Well, we're Anglo-Americans, and so we're going to use ''our'' nationalist points of view." Shy of that, there's practically nothing to say to distinguish or quiet them. ] (]) 00:29, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

			== Motion re alternate account ==
	]
	]
	*Ah, the ] questions? I am ready, bridge keeper, ask me your questions. Bishonen, the bird came with a set of talk page messages, so, when I archived, I flipped the bird to the filing cabinet, but I see you're insisting on those floating images that always cover up the text. Yes, I have entered the lists. If I don't make it, that's fine. If I do, that's fine. I think I have some advantages to offer, and my ideology, such as it is, is very simple. It contrasts with some folks, resonates with others, but there's no holy awe-power associated with it. Welcome back, Paul August: a lot has changed in that month, man, and nothing has changed much. Like I said, it's taken 3 years for me to run, so I guess I'm sure that I want to run, and maybe I'm inclined to want to win a seat. ] 01:22, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

			There is a motion at ] concerning your alternate account; you are invited to comment if you wish. --] (]) 13:14, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
	Well, as I said to another of the newly declared candidates a little while ago, this is going to be interesting. However,
	:He who would cross the bridge of death
	:Must answer me these questions three
	:Ere the other side he see:
	:*What is your name?
	:*What is your quest?
	:*What is your position on ]?
	:::] 01:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

			== Fielding ==
	*Geogre, so far as anyone knows. (That's what it says on the tag on my t-shirt.)
	*To get a date, but also to keep my mind sharp by writing articles and to ensure that the environment remains salubrious for that by working on ArbCom.
	*Obviously, aggressive taunting should not be necessary. The question is a fine one, because when "exasperation" (e.g. Lucky 6.9 was accused of taunting, when he was spending time vandal fighting and got really frustrated) turns into "aggressive taunting" is a judgment call. It's hard to make that judgment in many cases, but if one sign is staying away from the other while the other chases, then it takes an act of will to keep the fight going, and that is something that has to stop. A stern warning would be ideal, and it should go through mediation rather than arbitration. However, if we have a person who has more than a couple of targets, we're looking at a non-functional editor, someone who is not suited to cooperative editing. Such a person should not be tolerated once it's ''clear'' that they cannot function in a wiki environment. Jesus said that we must forgive 7 times 700 times, but forgiveness is not license. We can forgive infinitely, but we cannot then allow a person to go to cause damage. To the degree that people brand a user as a troll, or to the degree that arbitrators brand a user, that user is from that point forward useless, because no one but a fool or a saint would continue editing constructively, and that's why the reactions to taunting and the taunting itself have to be examined (although, of course, the solution offered to a bad reaction is much less severe than to a taunting user). ] 01:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
	Geez, if that's how you answer the jokes, wait till we get to the actual questions! ] 01:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

			Regardless of what happens, I would like to have your input on Fielding related stuff. There are a few pages that you were directly involved in, and some others that your opinion would be important. I plan on finishing the later plays coming up this fall and try to produce the bulk of his major works (including some poems and the rest). The one priority coming up will be '']''. When I have a chance, I will be adding some more information on the literary criticism and other notable aspects in order to prepare it for GA level. ] (]) 18:50, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
	Couldn't find a suitable picture of a bottomless gorge. But I did find the above! ] 01:58, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

			:Could you please weigh in on the above discussion? I proposed adding some more about specific criticism and the such. AD cut it down and left some in. However, you may have some differing opinions from us on what would be effective or not. ] (]) 21:45, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
	*It's gorges! ] 02:00, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

			== ] ==
	:I'm trying to get rid of the sense of humor. It's necessary for joining ArbCom. (Oh, and there are always people who simply don't understand my danged jokes.) Q. How many Marxists does it take to screw in a lightbulb? A. None: the lightbulb has to develop its own revolution from within! ] 01:59, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
			A request for arbitration has been filed. You may wish to make a statement. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 02:46, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
	::Yerse... yerse... that should have them rolling in the aisles. Have some cake, New Arbcom Candidate! I cannot understand why this one doesn't twinkle, I do apologize. Just let me know if anybody can still read anything on the page and I'll add a moving gallery of treats. ] \| ] 04:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC).
			::*Someone (I'm not sure who) once said "''Don't let the bastards get you down''" a motto I have always kept, so I recommend it. Unlike you, I only do poetry that I was compelled to learn in school, but I think many would do well to remember this "''IF you can keep your head when all about you - Are losing theirs and blaming it on you, - If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you - But make allowance for their doubting too''" and so on, I forget the rest, but I think the meaning is clear, and then my own favourite line "''Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch''" which is something you do very well! You see the other day, someone kindly fixed up this thing for me, which makes all the admins names on my watchlist appear blue, and do you know? - They are so in the majority, it has led me to the conclusion that not being an Admin is almost an affectation these days - rather like saying "look at me, I'm special" Funny how things turn out isn't it? ] (]) 21:57, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

	== ~~Did~~ ~~you~~ ~~know~~ ==		== Arbitration motion: Geogre ==

	{\| class="messagebox standard-talk"
	\|-
	\|]
	\|On ], ], ''']''' was updated with a fact from the article ''''']''''', which you created. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the ].
	\|} <!-- ], ] --> --] <sup>]</sup>⁄<sub>]</sub> <small>• 08:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)</small>

			I have just added calling for your de-sysopping. It is in your best interests to respond on the arbitration pages urgently to this and the other interests raised. I am sending you a copy of this message by email.  ] <sup>]</sup> 08:33, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
	== ] FAC ==
			::The problem is that once you have taken something from them (in this case - the tools) then they can threaten to take something away from you. Everyone who knows you, is 100% certain, beyond any possible doubt, that deceiving or building false concencus had never even crossed your too philosophical mind. In that respect, you are probably the mosy naively honest person on Misplaced Pages. The reasons you created Utgard were completely understandable and justified; they are also none of Durova and co's business. However, an ignorance of those facts has proven a source of long sought jubilation and glee to certain editors - and those whose most philosophical thoughts probably concern only their digestion and bowels. This is the crux of the problem, those who have their minds on higher things, seldom give sufficient thought to matters more base in appearance. Hence, you are in this predicament. It's not as though you use the tools - so if I were you, I would tell them where to stuff their bloody tools, but of course you are not me - which is why they are still whooping with such obscene joy as they seek to take from you and you remain silent. At least, this way, you have a dignity that others in this sorry case appear to lack. ] (]) 09:52, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
			::*As silent types go, you are proving pretty affective. However, I and some others are having some problems here. Why has this very commonly known alternative account, known in the highest circles, suddenly become a problem, that needs such public and drastic attention? There seems to be a huge movement wanting you de-sysopped; you certainly seem to have attracted some once powerful people (a whole unprecedented platoon of ex-arbs, undermining the present ArbCom, anxious to see you disposed of) I am just wondering why they and so many others from a certain quarter of Misplaced Pages are demanding your downfall - As disciples of Machiavelli they are provincial and clumsy, but they are singing in unison almost like a heavenly choir - or at least an orchestrated body. Any ideas, you would like to share with us? ] (]) 21:52, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
			:::*All I need to know is- did you use the "secondary" account to add to discussions/voting anyplace that your Geogre account was used. If not, then wheres the harm? If so... well that's a whole'nuther can o' worms. Good luck, because I've always appreciated your abilities/intellect. Best Regards, ] (]) 22:05, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

			== Ego sum tristis ==
	I am just wondering, since your "pending" tag remains un-struckthrough, whether there's anything else I can do to satisfy your concerns. Thank you again for your comments; they have done a great deal to improve the article. ] 16:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
	:Oh? It is? I thought it was a straight support, which is what I intended to leave it as. I'll go change it/remove ambiguity. ] 19:30, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
	::Thanks! I saw you had switched to support, but just wanted to make sure that it was clear that the pending notice no longer applied. I may be a little jumpy; this is my first FAC. ] 19:33, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

			I have really enjoyed reading your work here, especially that which you've done on the older literature articles. I discovered the troubles you're having when I checked in on a case in which user:Abd had listed my username in his evidence. As you've now not edited since the case began, I'm afraid we may have lost you, and that makes me very sad, if true. While I hope it's not true, I just wanted to post a note here to let you know that your contributions here are greatly appreciated, by more people than you'll probably every know. As the thread topic says, ''Ego sum tristis''. ] 05:23, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
	==Going to bed==
			*I ''do'' hope that those who clamored for his "administrative head" on a platter enjoy what they have wrought. ]] 18:18, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
	I just tried to Skype you, but I guess you've already withdrawn to your chaste slumbers. I get more and more fever... oddness. No commuting on Thursday, I don't think. ] \| ] 03:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC).
	:I think I go to bed before you. Last night, I think it was 9:30 PM, US East, but I've been having enormous problems with sleep lately -- not the hours but the thing itself. I can go to it and come away from it (sleep), but I don't seem to do it very well when I'm there. As for you, GO TO NANNY! Go, go, go. I look for you most every day, you know. My e-mai link works, so you can post to me of a time. ] 10:08, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

	== I ~~need help~~ ==		==Sorry to hear ...==

			Of your troubles. You have been kind to me in the past and very fair, and I wish you the best. ] (]) 21:52, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
	Hi Geogre, I need some help. I'm kind of hung up on 'English is a Germanic Language', after reading ]. I looked through some Germanic Languages articles and they are lacking sources, so I don't know who to attribute this to. I get the sense this is a pretty established notion so I think it is better to ask you than to keep adding {{tl\|cn}}s and {{tl\|unreferenced}}s. Can you explain this to me? Do I want to hear about it? ]+] 16:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
	:Yeah, it's kind of common knowledge. Basically, you have Gothic -> Old High Germanic & Low Germanic. OHG -> Old Norse, Frisian, Anglo-Saxon, while the low Germanic -> Dutch and old Germanic goes to German. Old Norse -> Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Icelandic. Anglo-Saxon and Old French mix to make Middle English -> early Modern English -> Modern English. I'm wondering where it might already be sourced. Let me check. ] 18:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

			== Motion 4 ==
	:I see that none of our Germanic, ], ] or other articles actually cite this fact, so, after I get to my Questia account, I'll go get an easy one. Since it is common knowledge, it's easy to get a citation. Shoot, I can probably snag one from going to Bartleby.com right now and referring to the Columbia Encyclopedia. As I say, it's a thing that absolutely everyone agrees upon. ] 18:26, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

			Hello,
	Ok, here's one ] reference. "English language" in
	<blockquote>TITLE: The Columbia encyclopedia. Sixth edition, 2001-04.
	PUBLISHED: New York: Columbia University Press, 2001–04.
	NOTES: Last Update: November, 2004.
	CITATION: “.” The Columbia Encyclopedia, 6th ed. New York: Columbia University Press, 2001–04. www.bartleby.com/65/. .
	ONLINE ED.: © Copyright 2001–04 Columbia University Press. Published January 2004 by Bartleby.com. (Terms of Use).</blockquote>
	The quote is: "English language: member of the West Germanic group of the Germanic subfamily of the Indo-European family of languages (see Germanic languages)." ] 18:30, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

			I've moved your latest statement to the new motion I've posted to propose that ] be unblocked and available for your use as an alternate account, provided it is clearly identified as such. This is partly to ensure that everyone has the opportunity to read your statement given that the motions they were attached to will close shortly and it would have been archived along with them. — ] <sup>]</sup> 21:27, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
	::Since the 60s? Are there sources making this analogy from before then too? I'd heard this before and it sounded kind of weird to me. I'm not going to worry about it though. Thanks for looking it up. Glad you are running for the arbcom by the way. I dropped out today, its not for me. You would be great though. ]+] 19:09, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

			== Motion Passed ==
	:::It's not a new idea, no, nor one that is in any way controversial. Look, here's a book from 1851, on google books: . If English doesn't sound Germanic to you, that might be because, more than any other language supposedly, English has aggressively borrowed from many, many other sources. But the core still harkens back to Old English or Anglo-Saxon, a distinctly Germanic tongue. (OK, I'm talking off the top of my head now. I'm sure Geogre will correct me.) —] (]) 19:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
			Hey Geogre, unfortunately the ] has ] to desysop your account. You are free to re-apply through the usual channels. ''On behalf of the Arbitration Committee,'' ''']''' '''<small>]</small>''' 00:27, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
	::::Ok, doesn't mean I have to like it tho. me/ sulks off to ru: ]+] 19:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
			:Please note that another motion is also close to passing. ] (]) 01:57, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
	:::::English is not only ], it's practically ]! Or was before that la-di-da ], or do I mean oh-là-là? ] is amazingly like modern German, if you can understand one you can understand the other. Albert C. Baugh called them "sister languages". Geogre, it offends me that Baugh doesn't have an article <HINT HINT>. ] \| ] 19:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC).

			== G'day Geogre ==
	::Baugh needs an article, alright. Let her with most umbrage get the cover. :-) House/haus guest/gast mouse/maus God/Gott love <- lof/leib <-leif folk/volk, etc. The number Grapes wants is 60%: roughly 60% of English vocabulary is still Anglo-Saxon/Germanic. Also, he's right: English is one of the sluttiest languages on earth: it'll take in just about anything. Finally, though, England got conquered by the "French" (who spoke French but who were other Germanic dudes who had invaded and conquered France but began speaking the language) (you can conquer France, but you can't make the French speak anything but French). (William was a "Norman"/Norse man, which means he had come from Norway or Sweden or Denmark (don't remember), and his folks had been in "France" for only 2 generations when he went knocking on England.) Anyway, French stuff makes it harder for us to notice how Germanic English is. ] 20:03, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

			seems a bit trite to say 'hope you're well' - but I do, so there you go..... Anywhoo... I thought I'd come by here to let you know that I've put a note on Utgard's userpage mentioning the connection to this account - I felt that the template was a bit rude, so replaced it. The only place therefore that a 'geogre sock' template is in use is over at my userpage, where it's a sort of poor man's satire / comment on the whole situation - I'm thinking of being Spartacus on tuesdays, thursdays and saturdays, and Geogre on mondays, wednesdays and fridays. Sundays I'll pick a new and exciting 'master' account, and wear that label with pride, don't tell anyone, but I've always wanted to be SandyGeorgia ;-)
	Hose in german = trousers becomes the root of hosiery in english, feld/field, schreiber/to write from 'scribe', wise/weise...........On a tangent I'm just here for another one of my dumb questions, I'm cleaning up an article at the moment - if 'to make something english' is to anglicise it - what is to make something French? Frankicise? francocise?--] \| ] 00:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

			Doesn't really need saying, but you should obviously feel free to revert, edit, or whatever at Utgard's page - certainly if you feel my oar is getting in the way. Take care, and insert a genuine 'I hope you can rise above all this, because your contributions to the project, in various 'spaces', really are among the absolute finest' type statement here :-) ] (]) 02:21, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
	*"Gallicize" is to Frenchify, whereas McDonald's is to french fry.
	*BTW, "scribere" is Latin. A good bit of German and English comes from Latin roots. Think of it this way: if monks did it, it probably came into both languages from Latin. For a really fun English language clothing option, note that "Shirt" and "Skirt" were originally the same thing, as people wore a tunic that went to the knees and was belted, if male. Women wore longer ones. The "dress" comes from the mantua, which is nearly Renaissance. On the other hand, the Norsemen living in the ] used the ON "skirt" for their tunic, and the Anglo-Saxons used "shirt" for theirs. When the garment got cut off at the belt, we kept the OE term for the top bit and the ON term for the bottom bit. ] 01:59, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
	::LOL! Great story. BTW, regarding who has and hasn't got articles, I'm glad to see ], ], ] and ] all have articles. Dang, I was hoping to find a gap in there somewhere! ] 02:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
	Also found ] giving the chronology as well as the relationships between the languages. Still, a proper tree, as seen might be useful somewhere on Misplaced Pages. ] 02:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

			:I, too, wish to convey my sympathy to you—and my contempt to the rash, harsh punishment you've suffered, of course, without being afforded a chance to defend yourself. Orwellian process, from start to finish. ] 09:26, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
	:If you want some structural linguistics, I wonder if we have ] and if it links to the Werner in question. I know not his name, but his law is right there with ] for importance in the early history of figuring out that there is a historical tree at all. Look at that tree for a minute. Now, what's interesting about it to you? What could have prompted people to come up with a tree like that? History? In fact, it's more interesting than that. I've wanted for ''years'' now to really get into some texts and research like mad (but it would take at least two years, with pay and sabbaticals, to get the research done) on the quest for the Adamic language. That's what we owe linguistics to. In the 18th century, it got to be all the rage. Actually, it began before that (or never died out), but the quest was to find the language that people spoke before ]. What was that one true language, the language Adam gave the one true name to all creatures in? Linguistics starts with people trying to work out which language is oldest, and that's because they really thought they could find the pure language, where the connections between things and words would be accurate. (And this is without all that "true name" magical thinking that Frazer describes in '']''). ] 02:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
	::] and here is his law ]. It's all about the t/d f/v transformations. ] 02:54, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::I expect to see ] on ] by Saturday. ] 03:00, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
	::Get cracking, then! I expect I'll be answering questions well past then. :-) Here I am, offering a custom-made DYK idea to any of the little birds. If no one gets moving on it, I will do it, eventually. I remember, when I learned Werner's law, thinking that one only needed that and Grimm's law, and you could simply look at any sheet of German and translate it into English. Another fun question, though, is this: ''how'' does an entire nation change its pronunciation in a way that ''precisely fits'' a law like that? They don't go to a convention and agree that they'll move all sounds up one position in the mouth, we assume, and yet these phonological changes are regular as clockwork. Heck, that's even harder to understand than why the ] occurred when it did and across all of Europe and in only 50 years. (The GVS's reasons are more mysterious than Nessie and Bigfoot combined, IMO.) ] 03:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::I've got my hands full at the moment keeping an eye on ] (today's featured) (does contributing 3 sentences get me over 1FA? <g>). ] 03:11, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::Please stop tempting me to point out the people who say it does, thank you. —] (]) 03:17, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

			::The AC is far too incompetent to do Orwellian. This was more like a ].--] (]) 21:59, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
	Do you think if I put my copies of ] and ] on either side of my head, and think really hard, that I'll find out what ] is? ] 03:13, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
			:::They're as full of promise and ultimate disappointment as ], we're clearly into the Brown phase. --] (]) 22:06, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

			::I think everyone is mistaken about Orwell. Normally, people responding in such a manner to such a situation would say ]. ] (]) 22:17, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
	:I had a link to it, up there. Let's try again: . Now, though, you have me wondering if we have an article on ], which is the theory that sleeping on a book will give you the knowledge (although it's usually a term used for the idea that the ancient Greeks had that going to sleep in a temple would bestow blessings from that deity). ] 03:17, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

			== An offer ==
	Dang! ]. I was this close to creating the article as well. I see ] is still a stub-stub though! Now, which way should the redirect to/from ] go? ] 03:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
			There is an offer for you at ]. Contact me if you wish to pursue it. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 14:51, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

			:Why don't you just knit him a nice sweater instead...or maybe a scarf?--] (]) 21:55, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
	:Random other stuff: ]; ]; and ] (which is where I found the Verner spelling). ] 03:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
			::Or a noose. --] (]) 21:59, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
			:::Only if he accepts her nomination for RfA.--] (]) 22:01, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
			::(EC) Now, now, Joopers, I'm ] Durova didn't mean her essay to sound at all conditional or baiting. ]<small><sup>]</sup>]</small> 22:02, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
			:::Really? Because it sounded awfully to me like Durova has offered to cut her toenails if Geogre cuts his throat - now that's reciprocity folk! --] (]) 22:16, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
			::::Well she should cut hers first, since they keep tearing holes in her favorite ].--] (]) 22:22, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
			::Given the level of almost paranoid distrust displayed by some individuals on this page, I can well understand why you might like to avoid the politics of this place. And, yes, I'm fairly sure that you and some others might count me as one of the "enemy" as well. I did and do think that it might be a good idea for you to be subject to a confirmation vote, primarily for two reasons (1) the fact that the two names could be seen by those with no prior knowledge of the dual identity as being two individuals taking part in one discussion, and (2) far more importantly, as a form of, well, warning, to any admin in the future who might take recourse to multiple accounts, and, like NYB said, probably by accident have eventually wound up using them for a purpose for which they were never initially intended, but which could be seen as being to some level problematic. Having said all that, I would also be honored to second (or third or whatever) your nomination for reconfirmation should that situation develop. ] (]) 22:33, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

			::Guys, Durova has to be allowed to disagree without being personally attacked. It was this vituperative atmosphere we've created around ourselves that caused Geogre to want another account in the first place. It would be great if we could learn from this that differences of opinion and criticism don't have to escalate into wikihounding and disrespect. We may be about to lose a really great contributor because of it. ] <small><sup>]]</sup></small> 23:56, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
	*Ok, so why the hell does a '''Swedish''' website call him "Werner?" "There were four voiceless frikative consonants in Proto-Germanic – /f/, /þ/, /h/ and /s/. These voiceless frikatives changed into their voiced counterparts – /v/, /ð/, /g/ and /z/ – with one exception (which was discovered by the linguist Karl Werner): They remained voiceless when they were immediately preceded by the accent. This happened before the accent moved to the first syllable in all words. " It may be ''pronounced'' "Verner," but "Verner" is not a standard name, while "Werner" is. Time to find out if our article was written by someone with a faulty memory or not. (Our Adamic language is poo-poo. I mean ''really'' researching it.) ] 03:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
			:It would seem the offer is being viewed with the distain it deserves, as an attempt to wash blood from stained sheets. I wonder if Risker whould have been given the same 'opportunity' if Durova had managed to bring her down as collateral damage. This is high politics of the kind Durova has been so careful to distance herself from since !!; so the slate can be forgiven and wiped clean. I think all that effort is ruined here. Ouch, opps. The self interest and politics here are so naked and obvious here, I have to agree with Geogre in that 'ye all bore me'. ] (]) 15:04, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
	:I see that in Swedish, "v" and "w" are (or until recently were) considered basically the same letter. See ]. This really isn't a bad encyclopedia, sometimes. ] 03:27, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

			== Stallo ==
	*No, not always either one. The Adamic language article, for example, appears to have been written by a partisan of the last group to look for it. I have to say that Werner, being a Dane, would be likely to have been a W from Germany rather than a V from parts unknown. Besides, the Germans were the ones who wrote these "Preface to the Study of the Phonology of Gothic Derived Tongues, in twelve volumes" and then die before getting beyond the preface. Anyway, we need to find a Dane to testify to the name of this particular great. ] 09:53, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
			Given that the image was used on this very page, it seemed appropriate that we have an article about the things. So I've started off ] for you. ] (]) 01:20, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

			== Motion Passed ==
	::I'll post something at the language Reference Desk to see if they can help. ] 11:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
			Hello Geogre, just noting for the record that a new motion has passed relating to you at ] ''On behalf of the Arbitration Committee,'' ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 01:43, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

			== An impotent rogue speaks... ==
	:::I keep trying to taunt Bishonen or Tupsharu to speak up, as they're both Swedes who can understand Danish (if not Danes), and I'd figure that there ought to be some chest thumping pride from the norse. ("We cross the sea/ With thrashing oars/ That carry us to/ A distant shore/ We are your overlords.") (From Werner's law to Led Zeppelin in two steps must be a record.) ] 11:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

			Per your comment at the arbcom case "Little did I know that such a collection of impotent rogues would gather to express their grave displeasure and sober defense of the letter of the law. Each of them united solely by the fact that, in the past, I had been instrumental in exposing his misdeeds ..." I would be grateful to know what misdeeds you imagine I have committed or that you have exposed. ] (]) 15:38, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
	:]. There is no ]. There are almost no links to ] or ], unlike ] or ]. -- ] ] 12:10, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
	::Vandalism, no doubt. "I never could succeed in getting those idiots to understand their own language," as Mark Twain said of the French. Seriously: with someone ''this'' obscure, I'd not trust any wiki source. That doesn't mean I think I'm right and it wrong, but only that the more iffy a subject, the more you may be looking at a solo contributor, and the more ubiquitous, the more likely you're seeing popular misconceptions. This is an iffy one. (And the Swedes conquered the Danes until '']'' set them free.) ] 12:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::Looking at , hwo many of the "about 1580" results are Misplaced Pages and it's mirrors? Putting in "-wikipedia" still gets 491 hits. We need original documents that show what he and his contemporaries called him, and how they spelled his name. ] 13:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

			== Sysop status ==
	I'm satisfied from that ''someone'' called him Verner. That journal also looks like it has useful information. Can anyone here access it and expand the details at ]? ] 13:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

			If you do seek to regain sysop status, as I have already said, I would be honored to be allowed to be one of your nominators. ] (]) 14:02, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
	:I've summarised bits from the first page. Can't access the rest. ] 13:52, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

			==This week's blog post==
	Hmm, it appears that I (and the Swedish page) was wrong, as I get few Google hits with the W, about which is the more common form of the name. At the same time, I'm still not ready to believe that it isn't a valid variation. I need to get into more academic webbing to be sure. ] 15:55, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
			Honey, that is so beautifully written!

			And some great quotes: "Ignorance is the mother of admiration"! Ha! :-D I'd never heard that one.
	:Does count as academic webbing? :-) ] 16:56, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
	::"I want to name my baby Cartland, because that's on my soap opera!" I wonder how many unfortunate adults are now wandering around cursing every time a vocative occurs because their mamas were watching a program and deciding to name them "Dylan" and "Olivia" and "Hunter?" I did enjoy putting clothes on the dollie, though. Ordinarily, I prefer taking clothes off, but then I remembered that the scholars of Madonna Studies are now looking at the semiotics of the little black dress. (What? You doubt that there was such a thing as Madonna Studies? Don't be gullible: of course there was, thanks to Camille Paglia having a lesbian crush on her.) ] 17:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
	Should there be at least redirects at ] and ], then? ] 16:11, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
	*I want to be more certain than I am now before we do that. ] 16:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
	::Are we there yet? I see one of them is blued now and the other is still a redlink, so we need some consistency, anyway. ] 00:33, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

	~~Done.~~ ] 02:49, 20 ~~November~~ ~~2006~~ (UTC)		What's a divot? ] \| ] 21:13, 3 August 2009 (UTC).

			'tis true. Reminded me of the much missed ]. (The beeb never did find a way to plug the gap he left and the ocean between us can only widen without it - How's your radio voice Geogre?). 'Replace your Divots' is parlance from that dreadful waste of a good walk, meaning clods of earth belted out with a driver. --] (]) 21:27, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
	==Thinking of life outside the boxen==
			::Indeed! Are we sharing this, with a link, or keeping it for ourselves? ] (]) 21:38, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
			::: --] (]) 21:42, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
			::::Sorry to correct you Joopers, but a driver is usually swung at a teed ball, so no divots there. Nitpickingly yours, ] (]) 08:25, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
			:::::You've clearly not seen the rare occasions I've teed off. --] (]) 21:08, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

			== Apologies ==
	Sigh. . I mean, ]. Isn't ]? Imagine ] with one of those monstrosities. Ugh. -- ] ] 19:58, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
	*Are they immune to sense? Have they no '''eyes?''' Can they not see anything at all wrong with a box that is more than twice the length of the article? How is that a highlight, when it takes more space and has less '''information''' than the article? These people are insane, or else, more likely, they never even look at the articles they deface. ] 20:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

			I hope it's Ok with you, but I have made this edit to your user page it was upsetting some people and causing concern that the ritual drumming out of the regiment had not been performed. It's funny isn't it, how on this case the honour was drummed out with you. ] (]) 18:49, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
	::Oh, it ] be ]. ''Clearly'' articles on the children of Louis XV need direct links to great uncles and cousins and suchlike. -- ] ] 20:10, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

			==I miss you==
	:::Looking at ] - it is not so much an infobox as a bloated navbox. But navboxes should be small and provide only a few directions to head outwards in. Think of the article as containing subject and explanatory links, and a navbox as providing the most relevant of the subject links (allowing the reader to easily navigate to related topics). Here, the navbox has bloated to the point where it provides links across the ''entire'' topic of the dynasty, most of which are not of ''direct'' relevance to this article. The one place where this bloated navbox might be acceptable in its bloated form is on the page about the dynasty. For an example of navboxes and infoboxes working side-by-side, see ] (though please don't read the actual infoboxes, as they are horrendously inaccurate). The navbox, though, is designed so that one can click back-and-forth across the different wars without excessive scrolling. This is similar to the navbox set-up at ]. ] 01:33, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
			]

			I miss you. :-( ] \| ] 00:37, 10 August 2009 (UTC).
	*I think the impulse to writing an article on every little girl of the Sunny loins is the movie. That's what I'm detecting, anyway. However, those little articles are harmless, but the 1:3 article to box ratio articles actually give one a headache and make Titian's ghost cry. ] 20:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
	::Just curious, have you seen the movie? I'd be interested in hearing what a sage as yourself has to say about it. ] \| ] 20:49, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
	*I haven't, and I'm more of a weed than a sage. Sophia Coppola knows how to photograph women, though, and Kirsten Dunst has never looked as good on screen as in ''The Virgin Suicides,'' just as Scarlet Johansson has never looked as good as in ''Lost in Translation.'' Her visual style is fantastic. She lacks her father's interest in ripping the soul out and putting it on display (something you can see from ''The Conversation'' through ''Apocalypse Now!''). Her brother similarly has style more than philosophy, but Sophia ''does'' have some themes. She has been working on "lost girl/woman" themes that are somewhat closed off to a male audience but highly resonant with another half (supposedly, optimally). The problem with doing that particular movie is that every person who sees it is going to be misled by the title and subject matter and think that what's at stake is either narrative or history, when, as far as I can tell, Coppola isn't interested in anything but the extremities of a girl having to learn to live with living out of place, a sort of identity alienation. It's a fine theme, if not as fruitful as Kubrick's single theme (the Jungian Shadow and how civilization suffers from its suppression). I look forward to it on DVD, even though I'll lose a lot of the color saturation. ] 21:44, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
	**More on that: The reason the Kubrick analogy came to mind is that it was a case of another director with one dominant theme who made a misunderstood film. All he did, it seems to me, is show us people who become the Shadow (the violent, raping, greedy Id-like creature, the savage) after their social controls are broken down and then what happens. Some people like Alex de Grand are pure Savage. Others, like Jack in ''The Shining,'' go "mad" and become the Shadow. Well, Kubrick did ''],'' and everyone freaked out. Kubrick doing an intellectual, heartless movie about Vietnam? Doesn't he know what Vietnam ''means?'' How dare he make a non-political meditation when the subject is Vietnam? Because of these extra dimensions, the movie got bad reviews from critics and audiences. People misunderstood it. They were offended by it. It seemed disjointed, with over half the movie in barracks and then this other movie tacked on. Now, perhaps, we can see it as a very good movie, if not his greatest, but the frame and setting of the film destroyed the reception. Sophia Coppola does "a girl disaffected from her family moorings and uncertain what it means to be sexual and alive." People seeing ''Marie Antoinette'' are freaking out. "It's not about the queen!" "It's about a poor little rich girl!" "It violates history and doesn't even stay true to the woman!" In other words, by picking that subject, she has invited everyone to ask the wrong questions. She is using the queen as an abstraction, as a mere narrative focus point for her lost girl theme. I'll be interested in seeing it, but her theme bugs me with its highly partial appeal. ] 03:44, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::I don't know of any weeds that have the sagacity of yourself. :-) I've learned more in these two paragraphs than I've learned in two weeks! I should say this, the film is beautifully concieved, but like you said flawed in its conception. It's a thoughful film trying to be a chick flick and mostly ending up as a chick flick. Though, a very entertaining one. If you can divorce your thoughts from the idea that this is about Marie Antoinette, it's a fun film. Thank you for your erudite comments! ] \| ] 06:51, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

			:I agree with the sentiment. At the risk of gushing, something I doubt Geogre appreciates much, I think he's the finest writer I've encountered in almost six years at this place. Geogre, be well; some of us do miss you more than you may ever know. ] ] 00:39, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
	::She's an exceptional visual talent, but the idea that the children of famous artists tend to have talent without hunger is nearly inescapable when I see her films. Her brother has done rock videos and one feature film (Roman Coppola), and it failed to be quirky by being all quirk and no norm against which the twists and reactions could play. (Yeah, I used to "do" film criticism for pay.) ] 12:50, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

			:Eh what? I popped up merely to point you to ]; can you really be gone? I hope it's merely a vacation. Come back rested and refreshed. -- ] (]) 06:16, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
	:Oh, why did Kubrick have to die so young? My favourite director – consistently creative and inventive. Diverse and eclectic like no other. Never was there a director more influential and imitated ] 16:48, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

			== NowCommons: File:Hogarth-Southwark-Fair-1734.png ==
	Well, we ''do'' have other great directors. I love Bergman, for example, even when he's in a vicious mood, although he was practically a mass production line compared to Kubrick. My regret about Kubrick is that he made so few movies. I even liked '']'' a very great deal, and I regard it as Kubrick's most optimistic film, if not a fitting last film. In that one, a man discovers the subconscious desires of his wife, the dream life that he, as a proper doctor, had been denying, and that tempts him to find out what the male subconscious is, the Id that he had been denying. What he sees is the real danger that he had to embrace and yet not become, and the film ends with the wife saying, essentially, "We must integrate our beasts into our civilization." They have to go home and fuck. The other movie to end with something like that line was ''Clockwork Orange,'' but that ends not with Alex ''integrating,'' but rather ''reverting'' to the beast that must be. I can't say that I love every Kubrick movie, but he never made a shallow one, never made a useless one. Comparing him to his nearest imitator (of a sort), Malik (I'm watching '']'' tonight), he was far less sentimental. If that made him sometimes inhuman, it also kept him away from the pointlessness that the meditative and brooding film makers can fall into. ] 18:10, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
			] is now available on ] as ]. This is a repository of free media that can be used on all Wikimedia wikis. The image will be deleted from Misplaced Pages, but this doesn't mean it can't be used anymore. You can embed an image uploaded to Commons like you would an image uploaded to Misplaced Pages, in this case: <nowiki>]</nowiki>. Note that this is an automated message to inform you about the move. This bot did not copy the image itself. --] (]) 17:52, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
			<!-- ncnotifier -->

			== Invitation, if you're so inclined... ==
	:Well, I revamped the articles on some of Louis XV's children mainly because they were mentioned (and redlinked) in some of the articles on châteaux that I was writing up a while ago; but also because our articles were so bad compared to the ones in French Misplaced Pages (for understandable reasons), and many include lovely images, and some are quite interesting (the first daughter of the Sun King - a twin! - in a loveless marriage to a Spanish cousin, none of the other daughters marrying, and the youngest becoming a nun to redeem her father's immorality).

			Hi Geogre.
	:But I would rather watch the movie, of course. -- ] ] 13:00, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

			I'm here to ask if you're interested in participating in a public discussion. I've been talking with some people about deletion processes around here, and we're talking about doing a moderated discussion for the next newsletter. The idea is that, although "inclusionist" and "deletionist" are clearly divisive terms when applied to people, they do represent certain archetypal Misplaced Pages philosophies.
	Loveless marriage conducted with great ''politeness,'' of course. It was the epitome of the aristocratic marriage: if they'd had artificial insemination, they'd have surely used it. Meet the wife for "duty" as a husband, then depart to one's own house (separate bedrooms not being nearly enough). The mistresses chosen for looks and vivacity, and the queen chosen for breeding stock. It's the turning point, in some ways, where the queens really stop thinking that their husbands are going to give them much beyond money. In France, being a mistress's favorite was a ticket to the big time. In England, it was a ticket to the doghouse (viz. John Gay, whom Mrs. Howard favored). ] 13:05, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

			We're thinking that it would be interesting, and perhaps bring out some good points for the community's rumination, if we have people meet in a discussion in order to articulate opposing perspectives on a number of questions. I know that you have written some meta-pages on the subject of deletion, and I wonder if you'd be interested in being a participant in such an event. I seem to have volunteered to be a mergist-minded moderator, and part of that gig involves looking for people who can eloquently express ideas about deleting and keeping articles. I thought of you.
	As some dick once said: "When I retire I'm going to spend my evenings by the fireplace going through those boxes. There are things in there that ought to be burned." (R.M. Nixon).--]<sup>g</sup> 15:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

			Would you have any interest in participating in something like this? -]<sup>(])</sup> 20:18, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
	*Oh, that's a well applied quote, alright, and I was astonished by the AN post from a guy who's trying to prevent a box listing ''all of the Criterion Collection films'' and where each falls on the article for ]. The protest was good, but I went to go look, and he was a little late with his protest: the article has about '''five''' boxes. The other thing is that boxes of such a nature really attract the trainspotters among us with which elements they want to include (the numismatics might want each politico's box to have which coins featured on, even though it has buggerall to do with the life in politics, while the philateralists want each stamp approved by that president or prime minister, so the box gets a line longer, then another, then another, when place of birth isn't even clearly of importance). Ugh. Ugh again. ] 15:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
			:Wait... you're gone? Oh hell. -]<sup>(])</sup> 20:19, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

			== FAR Notice ==
	**It's nice to agree on something :) --]<sup>g</sup> 18:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

			{{#if:\|] has\|I have}} nominated ] for a ]. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets ]. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are ]. -- ] (] '''·''' ]) 17:41, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
	== RFA Thanks ==
	{\| style="border: 1px solid {{{border\|blue}}}; background-color: {{{color\|#0F8}}};"
	!colspan="2" align="center" style=" background-color: #0F3;" \| '''Thanks!'''
	\|-
	!colspan="2" align="center" \| Thanks for your input on my (nearly recent) ], which regretfully achived no consensus, with votes of 68/28/2. I am grateful for the input received, both positive and in opposition, and I'd like to thank you for your participation.
	\|-
	!colspan="2" align="right" \| ] 04:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
	\|}

			== Restoration spectacular ==
	==Humour==
	I have given your comment about the humour inherent in the bumper stickers some thought, and I have added a note with helpful links to assist those who miss that aspect and are inclined to be overly concerned about a couple of bumper stickers: ]<sup>]</sup> 16:29, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
	*That's the right way to answer, I think: make the note for the humorless humorous, but make sure they know that, even though they can't see it, you are being somewhat tongue in cheek. I have tried, before, to explain irony. The best illustration of verbal irony (as opposed to sarcasm, which impresses me ''sooooo'' much) is "Life is a waste of money" or my own, "Don't blame me: I voted on a Diebold." ] 18:26, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
	**For irony see ] - dying on stage, after a lifetime of jokes, and the public knowledge of his ill health; so popular was he, that the audience kept applauding throughout his massive cardiac arrest - even after the curtains were drawn, ambulances called and paramedics on the scene. Tragedy, irony and pathos - what a way to go.........asking for more............
	Also, I always liked woodie allen's (annie hall i think) - in the back of a cab "you look so beautiful tonight - I can hardly keep my eyes on the meter" --] \| ] 00:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

			Please see ] as an informal FAR. ] (]) 19:58, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
	:I like both of those. Irony is disquiet, uncertainty, linguistic anarchy, a sort of cognitive vaccuum that absolutely ''demands'' the reader supply the meaning that can't be provided. It's in that way that we understand Socrates as being sentenced to death for irony. It's how Chance the Gardener gets elected to president and why the current president, who shares Chance's other characteristics and circumstances, fails as an ironist. ] 01:47, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

	::I find the concept of ] helpful in understanding ]. ] 03:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

			== Over three months ==
	:I wrote my master's thesis on the rhetorical triggers for an ironic figure of speech. That's not interesting, but what is maybe interesting is that I had to develop my own definition of irony. At the time, it was a brand new definition, but since then I've seen quite a few people defining it very similarly. This is not because anyone read my thesis, I think. At any rate, I wrote that "Irony is the difference between what is said and what is meant, where that difference is of authorial attitude rather than referrent." I therefore made it very much like ]. In metaphor, what one says is not what one means, but the tension between the expected (virtual) word and the actual word is a net addition of intention. In irony, what you expect the author to mean is different from what the author says he means, and the uncertainty and gap between these two is the experience of irony, the value of irony. ] 10:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

			It's been over three months since you left, you can't allow this shower to drive you off for good. <small><span style="border:1px solid Black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 19:35, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
	===Methaphor===
	I don't agree with that description of metaphor. In metaphor, what one says is what one means. One just means it more than one way. Regards, ] 11:18, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

			== ] FAR ==
	:Aristotle had described metaphor as an ornament, since it substituted the "improper" word for the proper one (Achilles is a man, not a lion). ] and others suggested that it is more than an ornament, because there is surplus meaning in the new word that communicates. Interaction theorists like ] suggested that the metaphor is not in the term substituted, but in the predicate, that the predicate is not "Achilles IS lion" but "Man IS lion." Tzevtan Todorov and others argued that there is a gap between the real and virtual word. My view is like theirs: there is a gap, and readers have to heal the gap between "lion" and "man/warrior," and during the disorientation of the linguistic code and its resolution a transferring of qualities back and forth occurs, so that a specific instance of man/Achilles/warrior and lion/predator/monster is vertically rather than horizontally signifying. That's just me, though. :-) ] 11:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

			{{#if:\|] has\|I have}} nominated ] for a ]. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets ]. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are ]. ] (]) 03:03, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
	:: Perhaps I should make this your arbcom question? :-) No, you already have my vote.
	::Yes. Part of the problem of discussing metaphor is that we run out of language, which is more ironic than surprising.

			== ] FAR ==
	Achilles is a lion
	(target) (source)


	target <= qualities of target
	\|\| /\
	\/ \|\|
	source => qualities of source

	Therefore achilles is a lazy slob who lets the women do all the work. :-)

			{{#if:\|] has\|I have}} nominated ] for a ]. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets ]. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are ]. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">] ]</span> 19:00, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
	::The expression itself is a metaphor. And the whole set of associations created thereby, is a metaphor. But I think the two things are not the same. The expression conjours the associations into existence, so the two are intimately connected, but that's not the same as being the same. And yet, we call them both metaphor. And if that's not overloaded enough, we also call the source a metaphor. Grumble. ] 23:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

			== Sockpuppetry Comment in '07 ==
	*Samuel Butler said "All a rhetorician's rules/ Teach naught but to name his tools." There's still truth in that, as a lot of rhetoric is trying to learn and then translate names. Each aestheticist has his own terminology, and then the structuralists get involved and throw ''theirs'' onto the pile, and each says that no one has ever realized what he has just said. The neo-Aristotelian ("linguistic gap") and the psychology of reading ("reading requires expectation, orientation in the language stream, and then orientation in the mind, but metaphor introduces disorientation and reordering of the linguistic line") and the interaction theorists ("the terms interact with one another to produce a third thing") all seemed to me to be saying the same thing, but there was a big filter we needed to remove. Most of them were working with ]s like English instead of the synthetic languages that the Greeks and Romans spoke, so word order was leading them to put too much importance on "first vehicle and then analog" (to use Richards's terminology, which is probably the most common). If the Greeks knew metaphor the way we do, it can't be based on order of presentation, and that led me to my very own innovation (which, of course, no one has ever thought before) that the metaphor is in the ]'s disorientation of the linguistic slot and that the "is" is, in fact, a wide open agglutination of qualities which we will select based upon our cultures as readers. (E.g. your "he lets the women do the work" from the point of view who watches too much ] vs. the Greeks' "he's really ferocious.")
	*Oh, and I guess I should say that, yes, I did get somewhat edumucated on rhetoric, and it really wowed all the hot chicks at the coffee house. ] 03:38, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

			I hate to dredge up the past, but I just wanted to make a comment on , where it was stated that is was almost assured that I was using sockpuppets. I just want to set the record straight that I wasn't -- the other user in question approached me while I was a developer and notified me --- that community is -very- hotheaded, but he wasn't a sockpuppet and I asked him repeatedly in private (which is against policy but I didn't want more trouble) to calm down as I did.
	:: "the metaphor is in the ]'s disorientation of the linguistic slot"
	:: I'm sure I have the wrong end of the handle here, but are you saying that tense has something to do with it?
	:: The interesting question (for me) is how the agglutination/selection process works. Somehow, the action of considering the metaphor expands one's understanding of the 'tenor'. (I do dislike that word, and 'vehicle'; I can never remember which is which.) In part, it is the simple activity of throwing a lot of potential qualities (those of the vehicle) at the tenor, and seeing which ones stick. This causes us to look at the tenor in new ways. But if that was all there was to metaphor, then any random word could be used. And that's not true, there has to be an underlying sameness to tenor and vehicle.
	:: My interest comes from computer programming, where a common activity is putting names to new and often ill-defined concepts. When capturing a concept in code, it helps to be able put a single word to that concept. Metaphor has been suggested as a useful technique (by the great ]), and many great names do come from metaphors. The problem is that no-one that I've seen has ever come up with a convincing explaination for how it works, let alone how to find good metaphors. Regards, ] 04:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
	:Ok, well, my folks are ready for your question. If there is insufficient disorientation and disruption in the substitution, the result is ], and if there is too much, the result is incoherence. Metaphor exists only when there is a disorientation and where the terms can synthesize. Arguably, no one even recognizes that "He plowed through the crowd to get to the front" is an embedded metaphor because "plow" has been so overused as to have lost all disruptiveness, while the "No soap, radio" faux Surrealist joke cannot share qualities.
	:However, I agree that the filter in place in the agglutination is the interesting part. Some people have seen metaphor as a profoundly mystical activity, a thing that not only defines humanity but allows for the knowledge of God. I don't go that far, but I do think that the synthetic capacity in humans is special.
	:How it works (finding an apt metaphor) is complicated, and I suspect each working metaphor has a different story. Essentially, computer programmers, biasing young, will tend to favor analogs that provide some humor and denigration to themselves or their work. If the metaphor has that quality, it will be ''memorable'' (a triumphant figure must be more memorable than its competitors). It also sometimes requires spatializing, synchronizing, or physicalizing to the body the action. In each of those cases, the metaphor will make the abstract process more natural. So, aphoristic quality, humor value, and concretizing would be my guesses, as these are the general methods for other cant metaphors. To get into studying triumphant metaphors is to get into studying the collective cultural unconsciousness (or episteme, if you want) of an age.
	:Literary metaphors usually aim at something else: they usually aim for adding modifiers to a known act or object. For example, "plow through the crowd" takes a well known thing (moving through a crowd) and attempts to provide vivid modification ("moves like a plow moving steadily but with difficulty and strain against a crowd that, like the soil, resisted"). Literary metaphors can become cliches and lose their metaphoric value, but it seems to me that they always try to make new and vertical an old and flattened linguistic counter. ] 04:42, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

			No hard feelings, just want to set the record straight.
	::Indeed. In this case, the metaphor doesn't have to be intutive, so long as it is not too vague to explain. What is more important is that the metaphor gives enough labels to cover the tenor concept and its substituent subconcepts. For example, a ] has leaves, it has a root, and it has branches. It doesn't have soil, bark, flowers or fruit, or perhaps I should say I've never seen anybody make any use of these terms. If they did, I would make certain assumptions that might even be right. I have occasionally met a forest of trees, and one does sometimes talk of growing or pruning trees. From the one metaphor, we have 4+ key words that each instantly convey the subconcept, or perhaps I should say, convey the the relationships they have to each other. 'Tree' a great metaphor, a 'rich' metaphor. But how did it come into existence? I guess it just grew. :-) Regards, ] 05:11, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
	::PS. How many surealists does it take to change a lightbulb?

			<font size="1" face="Verdana">] -- ]</font> 10:10, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
	:Fish.
	:You know, that particular one caught on, I think, because of a graphic analog. When you sketch your topolography (and calling it "topography" is itself a borrowing), you write it in a hierarchy that looks exactly like (at least in the token ring days) a family tree. Family trees already had subordinate metaphors like branch and root. However, metaphors like that are ''dangerous.'' What really kills is when the metaphor masters the 'object.' Empiricists and "science" and math folks get antsy about the problem of when the metaphor becomes the language and when the language determines the questions and answers possible.
	:From "tree," you begin to determine the sorts of things a person thinks of doing to one's servers or data structures. Once you start wanting to shear away (metaphor) the figures (metaphor) that color (metaphor) speech so that they no longer determine (pathetic metaphor) the speech, you get to realize that even the innocent (metaphor) seeming words that you were using outside of the metaphor were metaphors. I can't abide what happens then. The analytic philosophers have entirely closed their stores and moved off into their own world where non-languages are used, and they're as bad with assuming that what they figure out about their analog must apply to the thing itself as anyone. (I mean that they create these symbolic logic languages, and they get into all this chopping up. They then apply their conclusions formed on the symbols to language. This is as bad as someone reading "data tree" and thinking that he cannot 'inflate' the branch because branches are rigid (where, if the framing metaphor had been balloons or bubbles, he would have been thinking of how much each line of structure can 'inflate' before 'popping').)
	:And at this point, I am talking out of my depth (metaphor). ] 12:33, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

			== A delectation of a page called Fashcool ==
	::Two. One to hold the giraffe and one to fill the bathub with brightly coloured machine tools.
	::You're right that this metaphor long predates computer science, and that it limits thinking. But I'm not sure that it's a bad thing; you need to compare having the metaphor to not having the metaphor. True, it's hard to think past the metaphor, but the question is could we even think that far without it? Perhaps we could, but I think it would be more work.
	::Consider the limitation to the metaphor. Root, leaves, and branches all make sense. But what to call each entry in the tree? Node, usually. It's not a bad word, it serves the task of being a label, but only if you already know what it means. It doesn't carry any associated qualities with it, not the way root and leaf do. So we can go beyond the metaphor, but we have to start working harder. We have to carry our own baggage, instead of drawing on the model we already have. The metaphor can only be extended so far. To go further, you have to throw it out entirely and find a totally different metaphor, if you can.
	::I guess I'm complaining too much. Metaphor allows us to reuse an existing mental model, iff we can find one that fits. So the way to be better at it is to have a larger portfolio of mental models, and/or better search algorithms. Regards, ] 20:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

			Dear Georgre ...
	:Complaining too much? Horsefeathers! It's not that you're complaining at all, because you are recognizing what way too many of the naive empiricists don't: that the metaphoric process is both valuable and enabling and root. We cannot escape it. If one wants to follow Frige and the logic choppers, then one can ''try'' to have integrity (the way Wittgenstein did) or begin to believe in the models (the way some of the lazy and zealous ones do), but one will never escape the need to live in metaphor. To some extent, it's the very ability to draw generalizations.
			in 17:00, 12 June 2009, I put a contribution material on wikipedia called '''Fashcool''' but you, as an editor removed it, if you have any dubt that the information is incurrect, please visit the Fashcool Gallery in the folowing link.
	:When Wittgenstein said that what we do not have words for, we must pass over in silence, you can read that as a complaint. I see it as skepticism. If I have a new smell, a smell never smelled before, I will immediately resort to analogies, and I will create a composite of these analogies -- abstractions of likenesses that I call "qualities," such as "sweet," which is in fact no more than the set all "sweet smells" have in common -- and the result will be a new entity. The fact that the analogies limit apprehension and comprehension is regrettable only if you want to be divine.
			http://www.facebook.com/fashcool#/pages/Fashcool/8241702429?ref=ts
	:Then again, I'm an existentialist. Kierkegaard's my favorite philosopher, and he regards these limitations as something we should be quite happy to talk about, because the fact that we seem to be more than we're capable of being suggests either that we're vastly deluded or that there is some third to the self, and this...thing...is either a fantasy or a part of us that does not belong with space and time and mass. (Yes, yes, this does end in mysticism, and I'm quite happy to go along.)
	:The metaphor can do fascinating things. Sometimes the framing metaphors allow us to have insights we shouldn't have. How, after all, is the wiring of two machines in a network really "lateral?" What on earth gives us the idea that these two are "lateral" to each other in relation to the server? That "lateral" is a power relationship and a flow direction of information. Once we have it, though, we can start talking about direction and dependence in a way that wouldn't be apparent without the metaphor.
	:Fuzzy thinkers rejoice...so long as you have the right fuzz and lots and lots of it to choose from. :-) ] 20:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

			If the deletation due that I cant write about my work as cartoonist hope you can help me in doing so .
	===a little pleasant conversation===

			Ramzy taweel <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 08:07, 3 January 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	I have wondered a lot about the similarities and differences between "ironic", "sarcastic", and "sardonic". What is your view? --] 03:44, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

			== ] nomination of ] ==
	*Two of those things don't belong with the other. Irony is a kingdom-level distinction. Within irony (a difference between expected and real attitude) would be sarcasm (a difference of attitude that is a reversal) and the ... hmmm, don't know the name for this, as I don't think there is a standard one in English... ειρον, the Socratic ironist (a difference where the speaker pretends to be stupid when he is wise...the Columbo question), as well as the parodic irony (when pretends to be competent but performs poorly on purpose to lead to a satire of the feigned stance). "Sardonic" is more of a personal quality, and it refers to a sort of sourness of mood with cynicism. ] 03:59, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

			<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">]</div>I have nominated ], an article that you created, for ]. I do not think that this article satisfies Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at ]. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time.{{-}}Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. <!-- Template:AFDWarning --> ] (]) 17:55, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
	:: is what I wrote about this a while ago. Let me know what you think. --] 04:27, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
			:This nomination is quite incredible. I suggest you withdraw it at once. <small><span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 18:03, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

	::Try this:
	::*Ironic speech is saying one thing in order to say something else.
	::*Sarcasim is the same, but the intent is specifically to denegrate somebody/something.
	::*Sardonic is more about how something is said, than what is said. As Geogre said, one of these things is not like the other ones.
	::But I think you have already received a number of good answers to the question I just answered, so maybe I'm not really addressing what you want to know. Why do you ask? Regards, ] 04:49, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

			== It's been a long time ==
	:::I'm just making conversation. --] 05:40, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
			It's been a long time since you turned your back on all the insults delivered to you - don't you think it's perhaps time to come back? - no need to forgive or forget (I certainly would not), but perhaps move on and do some writing - someone has to write some decent pages around the place, and I certainly see none from your attackers - so perhaps it's time for you to be the big man. <small><span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 20:37, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

			:Thursday next, 29 July, will be the anniversary of the last time Geogre made a contribution to Misplaced Pages. Both you and your Norse alter-ego are very much missed. I just hope that you'll find the opportunity to let your fans and friends know you're ok, and allow us the possibility that one day you'll return. Best wishes --] (]) 23:45, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
	::::You mean, you didn't care what the response was, you just wanted a response? ] 07:19, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

			::It was claimed by {{user\|173.186.127.134}} on the ] of ] that this user had died. Hopefully that's not the case, but if it is that would perhaps explain his absence. ''']''' <small>''']'''</small> 18:18, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
	:::::Please don't make me squirm over a little pleasant conversation. --] 08:10, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

			:::No, Geogre hasn't died. I was chatting with him just now, and asked him if he had, and he definitely told me "no". ] \| ] 19:17, 17 September 2010 (UTC).
	::::::Hi Ideogram, I won't make you squirm. Your 'punishment' is to ] and the page ] to conform with ] and common sense, to my satisfaction. Fair? Regards, ] 20:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

			:::(edit conflict, ... that itself is a chuckle, on this page) He appears to be very much alive, unless a ghost is doing the typing. I for one am happy to see one of my favorite editors returning, if but for a moment, as an anon. Giano, shall we dub this brief visitor the "] of Geogre"? ] ] 19:21, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
	:::::::Heh, to be honest I'm kind of busy with MedCab and ] right now. --] 07:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
			*Mr Antradus, how dare you mock the dead? I can assure you, young man (I assume you are a man, no woman would ever be so insensitive) that being dead is not a life-style choice! In fact, we are a discriminated against majority: we do not even have the luxury of "Proud to be dead" marches causing mayhem with traffic, such as are enjoyed by other discriminated against groups. Geogre is most certainly not dead, or he would be one of our leading campaigners for equal rights and recognition. Sometimes, I wish he were dead, then I could enjoy some more stimulating company; ] and ] bitching and fighting to be heard over the luncheon table with ] and her infernal megaphone is not my idea of heaven! Get a life! Young man and stop insulting the likes of myself! ] (]) 19:38, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
	:::::::::Oh, I'm sure you can find the time if you want to. Regards, ] 11:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::::::::Homework is so boring. --] 11:43, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

			I too would very much like to see Geogre return to editing. ] (]) 20:08, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
	===More of it===
			::A little late in the day to come here saying that - aweeping and awailing! You should have thought of that before the Arbcom drove him awf - with their stupid ill-conceived and ignorant sanctions playing to a dribbling and equally ignorant gallery or their peanutting supporters. Plus the fact, you have had months - a year to do something about it! Were I on that ridiculous Arbcom, things would be very different, of that you can be assured. ] (]) 20:53, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
	I'm somewhat surprised that my little note provoked this level of discourse on the nature of various forms of linguistic style - and also that allusion has not come in for a mention, especially in the metaphor conversation. ]<sup>]</sup> 09:43, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
	:Allusion is a bit different. In allusion the reference is more or less hidden, but the referent is something different that is somehow similar. For eg, Jim Casy in ] is an allusion to another JC. What happens to the one is presented as a repeat of what happened to the other. In metaphor, the referent, the vehicle, is of a different type and yet at the same time, the tenor is conceived of as being an instance of that vehicle. So allusion and metaphor overlap in that they both involve thinking about something using something else as a model. But metaphor is stronger. Allusion says "is like" whereas metaphor says "is". Regards, ]. PS. I do like questions that leave me knowing more than I did before being asked the question! 11:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

			== ]'s FAR ==
	::You know, though, allusion, like metaphor, adds an additional meaning to the vehicle -- or at least it can. Symbol is, to some degree, a stripped metaphor, ''and'' it is a compacted allusion. If there are "three trees on a low sky" (''Journey of the Magi'', by T. S. Eliot), we have an allusion to the passion, and the trees become a symbol. The existing three trees of the narrative and the Passion's three crosses stand ''together.'' These three regular old trees are signifying more than objects would because the mind perceiving them (the authorial/the reader) is perceiving their deeper resonance. Now, ] and the Modernists would go ape and want to talk about mystical depth and other fey stuff, but these symbols made of allusions do show us how the living world works. ] 12:40, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

			{{#if:\|] has\|I have}} nominated ] for a ]. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets ]. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are ]. ] (]) 21:55, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
	Oh, and more, please. This is exactly the kind of talk that is food to me, meat and drink and crackers and salad. ] 15:34, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

	::Allusion is not metaphor, but an allusion can call a metaphor into existance. There is an invisibilty to the boundary between the thing and the reference to the thing that makes it easy to overlook the fact that there is a distinction between the two. Usually, the difference between a thing and the name of the thing is either completely clear or totaly unimportant. But not always... Regards, ] 22:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

			== Pity you're not here anymore ==
	:You'll get fat. --] 15:55, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
			This whole section reminds me of you . Didn't you go on strike once years ago - in the happy days before the '''Arbcom decided they could dispense with your services''' and drove you off. Never mind, who needs dull boring old serious English literature, when one can read a comic. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 08:49, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

			:Just my opinion here -- I think Geogre ''is'' on strike, and that's exactly why we haven't heard from him. He just hasn't used the word. He kicked the dust off his shoes and left. That part that's desperately sad to me is that very few people seem to have noticed the departure of one of Misplaced Pages's finest-ever content contributors at all; indeed some of the worst non-contributors were likely happy to have him go. I suspect the same thing would happen on a larger, and more tragicomic scale, if content contributors did as you suggest.
	::Don't you have ] to do? ] 22:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
			:There's a story by C.M. Kornbluth called "The Marching Morons" in which a small group of intelligent people do all the work on a future Earth, while serving the billions of imbeciles bred by unnatural selection. These people go on strike, only to discover that they've but made the problems worse; the only thing to do, they learn, is to get rid of ''all'' the morons. ] ] 13:22, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

			::I am normally in favour of the wikipedia model, but having just read the review process by which Geogre's work on ] was demoted from FA status, I have some sympathy with critics of wikipedia and with the impatience of people who don't like to see excellent work being denied due recognition. The rules were enforced in a situation where they clearly need not have been enforced. Nobody wanted to suggest that Geogre didn't have massive command of the sources, but a lot of people wanted to bring him down for being an arrogant so-and-so, which to be fair he is; proof enough that it's one thing to know what you're talking about on wikipedia, but you'd better not annoy people because, unfortunately for the encyclopedia itself, if you want to be a star contributor it's at least as important to be well-liked as it is to know what you're talking about. This, of course, is merely my personal opinion. My opinion of the people who voted to demote the article from FA status for reasons that had nothing to do with its intrinsic quality but everything to do with politics and personal antipathy, and of the process that allowed their opinion to count for anything and not to be disregarded for what it so obviously was, is not fit to be expressed in public.
	:::I'll do it ]. --] 22:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

			::In the meantime, I am annoyed because I wanted to consult Geogre on a reference I found in an essay by ], who inferred the authorship of ''A Tale of a Tub'' from a coincidence of numbers in both that book and ''Gulliver's Travels''. But if he's not here, he can't confirm if he knew about it already.] (]) 23:51, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
	:This is ] and ] and rhetorical theory. It isn't a question of prescriptive and descriptive. It's a branch of philosophy rather than linguistics. That's on top of the fact that no one is a total descriptive in lexicography or grammar, as the whole ''point'' of being descriptive is to use ] to derive rules (operative rules), and no one is totally prescriptive, either, because no one is fool enough to think that languages are fixed. When I try to describe the function of a metaphor on the cognitive process of reading, I'm finding the operative rules and the underlying structure of the operation. I may be wrong or right, but I'm not ruling or following nature around with a notebook. ] 02:54, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

			==File source problem with File:Slaveship.JPG==
	::Quite so. These terms are relative, not absolute. --] 12:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
			]
			Thank you for uploading ''']'''. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the ] status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, please add a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a brief restatement of that website's terms of use of its content. However, if the copyright holder is a party unaffiliated from the website's publisher, that copyright should also be acknowledged.

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	::Are you a Platonist? --] 08:52, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
			:The source is clearly stated as "British Library" within the image. I've added a template including that information to help the bots who can't read image text. It's a pity that ] doesn't seem to apply to images. Sigh --] (]) 16:37, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

			==Better source request for File:Slaveship.JPG==
	:Absolutely not. I'm a Christian existentialist, if I'm anything. ] 12:33, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

			Thanks for uploading ''']'''. You provided a source, but it is difficult for other users to examine the ] status of the image because the source is incomplete. Please consider clarifying the ''exact'' source so that the copyright status may be checked more easily. It is best to specify the exact Web page where you found the image, rather than only giving the source domain or the URL of the image file itself. Please update the image description with a URL that will be more helpful to other users in determining the copyright status.
	Point taken about this entering the realm of philosohy, though I'm not so sure that we've left linguistics, even given that metaphor can happen without words. Nor am I'm not sure that we've entered aesthetics or rhetoric, excepting that truth is beauty, that beauty has its own truth, and that a beautiful metaphor is easily perceived as true. Regards, ] 22:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
	:Which would explain why Misplaced Pages, while a marvelous thing, is not always a beautiful thing - the criteria being Verifiability, not Truth. Or am I confusing Truth with Trolls? They both start with Tr. ]<sup>]</sup> 00:04, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
	This could be a serious extension to ]. Regards, ] 07:19, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

			If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source in a complete manner. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following . If you have any questions please ask them at the ] or me at my talk page. Thank you. ] (]) 23:11, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
	===Prescriptive and descriptive definitions===

			== Restoration literature FAR ==
	Geogre, it seems to me you are interested in creating new definitions that capture some particular essence of a concept that you have in mind. As you might have noticed from the discussion thread I linked to, I am more interested in understanding how terms are used by most people and what concepts they represent in their minds. --] 15:58, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

			{{#if:\|] has\|I have}} nominated ] for a ]. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets ]. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are ]. ] (] · ]) 09:23, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
	== James Joyce on FAR ==

			== ] missing description details ==
	Have you seen ]? ] ] 22:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

			<div style="padding:5px; background-color:#E1F1DE;">'''Dear uploader:''' The media file you uploaded as ] is missing a description and/or other details on its image description page. If possible, please add this information. This will help other editors to make better use of the image, and it will be more informative for readers.
	:I hadn't, but I have now. Most of the complaints are without basis, but there's absolutely ''no way on earth'' anyone can be expected to go grab that huge Ellmann biography, read it carefully, and come up with stupid page stupid numbers for each stupid fact that these lovely people expect to get a stupid citation. If they're going to insist that we're not featuring encyclopedia articles, but research papers only, then let it fall off. I think it's an incredibly bad idea, but it's a popular bad idea. ] 04:01, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

			If the information is not provided, the image may eventually be proposed for deletion,
	== FAC advice ==
			a situation which is not desirable, and which can easily be avoided.

			If you have any questions please see ]. Thank you. ] (]) 14:31, 4 December 2010 (UTC)</div><!-- Template:Add-desc -->
	I have put up ] for FAC; since you are experienced in the ways of FAC I would value your input. --] 03:45, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
	*I'll take a look when I have time, but remember, going in, that not all objections are actionable. If they're not, then they're not. If they are, though, do your best to accomodate everyone. ] 04:12, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

			:I don't think that it's a smart idea to place the notice on the page of a contributor who sadly has not edited for over a year. Despite the fact that the file actually had a description, I've added some extra information to try to keep the bot happy. --] (]) 01:31, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
	==DOPAMINE on deletion review==
	An editor has asked for a ] of ]. Since you closed the deletion discussion for (or speedy-deleted) this article, your reasons on how or why you did so will be greatly appreciated in the above review. ] 01:25, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

			::Most likely not. It is probably on the same level as placing notices on the talk page of editors who just happened to revert some vandalism on the image in question but otherwise has no clue as to the origin or circumstances of said image. --] (]) 01:52, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
	== Pickles, relish, and applesauce ==

			::: Agreed, and please accept my apologies, as I wrote the snotty comments for the bot, before I realised you'd justifiably moved the bot notification from your page here. I admit I find these sort of bot notifications irksome, particularly as the apparent reason for the notice turned out to be inaccurate anyway. Still, a few minutes of googling found some extra information on the image, so it should keep the bot from causing you further nuisance. Thanks for your reversion of the vandalism anyway! --] (]) 02:44, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
	You realize that your puzzle statement makes it illegal for the applesauce barrel to touch either of the others? :-) ] <sup>]</sup> 17:42, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
	*We're going to have to put the applesauce on probation, then, and if it keeps touching the others, we'll have to ban it for a year. I always thought the applesauce was a little grabby. ] 18:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
	** As an arbcom candidate, would you say that it was just a few bad apples spoiling the whole barrel? Or that it was always saucy to begin with? ] <sup>]</sup> 18:30, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
	*Well, it's really that Jack who messed everything up. Once you get ] in the neighborhood, a few felonies and unintended pregnancies are bound to result. ] 21:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

			==File copyright problem with File:Hutchenson-witch.jpg==
	== Truth ==
			]
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	What is it? --] 13:56, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

			If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the ]. Thanks again for your cooperation.<!-- Template:Di-no license-notice --> ] (]) 22:40, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
	:That which cannot be disputed but can be questioned and which disputes but does not question all other things. ] 14:15, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

			== cool myth ==
	::Is Truth platonic, or can different people have differing but equally valid definitions? --] 14:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

			Check out ]. Never even knew of it. What a deliciously wrong thing. And pushed forward by a new and young Wikipedian. Stop on by and edit. ] (]) 21:27, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
	:Plato was just flat wrong, although wholly logical. He figured that the source of truth had to be an immobile, immutable, perfect whole. It therefore required a ] for there to be anything like a world. This is poppycock and a good illustration of why the human mind is insufficient to questions beyond its internal structures. Wittgenstein reportedly said that we are like a fly in a bottle: it can go around and around and climb a bit, but it cannot go straight up. He also said that we are playing with our letterblocks and are missing the letters for "God." If there is a truth of the sort your question presupposes, it has to be beyond apprehension, and yet it must be generative. If it is generative, then it cannot be static, and stasis is not part of perfection. However, you then change questions to ask about miniscule truth instead of majiscule truth. Miniscule truth is "reliable" and "guiding" and "verifiable" and "consonant with the mental scenery" and language codes. Of that sort, there are no doubt many truths (maybe more than 50). However, when you ask "What is truth," you echo ], and the question is famous in that form as a philosophical stopper. ''That'' kind of "Truth" is singular by its linguistic definition. If you use the word, you say it exists, and if you ask the question, you say that it is incommunicable. ] 14:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
			==]==
			According to you , the name of the plot means ''"the treason '''at Maine'''"'' . Could you please cite the source for this information? Tks. ] (]) 18:15, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

			==Categories for discussion nomination of Category:Red list==
	::I believe that Science and Mathematics have what I call "working definitions of truth" that differ in important ways from Truth, and this is responsible for their success. In fact I would say Science and Mathematics are the only fields of human endeavor to have made significant progress since the Enlightenment. Contrast with the field of Philosophy. What do you think? --] 14:31, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

			''']''', which you created, has been nominated for discussion. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at ''']''' on the ] page.<!-- Template:Cfd-notify--> Thank you. ]] 12:42, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
	:Philosophy made ''enormous'' advances to the 20th century. It eliminated what Albert Einstein called the "metaphysical slumber" of essentialism, and yet many scientists, and especially mathematicians, cannot get away from an idealism that is intentionally divorced from life as lived. However, the greatest advances have been in tearing down some of the mental calcium deposits on our thinking. However, it has generally given up the goal of making an easily digested explanation of Everything (where science has not). At any rate, a working proposition about truth is fine. We all have operative truths. I have an operative truth that every time I get a girlfriend, a Dutch guy will steal her from me. It's based on inductive reasoning. If it matches up with an external system, it may be proven valid or not valid, but it still works for me. (I.e. all anyone can do with such provisional statements is point out that they're built well or poorly, and that kind of limits what philosophy ''and'' science can do.) ] 15:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

			== Two years is a long time ==
	::Science hardly aims to explain Everything. --] 16:07, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

			to be without your contributions. Friday next will be another year gone by and so I guess we ought to report on the last twelve months. It's felt a bit like the Dutch boy trying to plug the holes in the dyke – not yet a disaster, but seems awfully close to one.
	:Umm ] and ]? ] 16:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

			Anyway, ] was saved, but at the cost of a vandal changing all the parenthetical references to harvard-style in a ''fait accompli'' – the upside was that we found {{User\|Nikkimaria}}, who worked so hard to answer all the carping and verified many sources.
	::Don't be fooled by the choice of terms. Science doesn't aim to explain morality. --] 16:15, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
			{\| class="wikitable"
			\|-
			\|]
			\|]
			\|]
			\|}
			The three image files above survived and had a few extra bits of info added to them to reduce the chances of being deleted. ] had an extra sentence added to cover the possibility that it was so named to fit with the ].

			That's about it, as far as I'm aware. Ultimately, no measurable progress, but no obvious decay in your work, by and large. I just had a image of Dewey from the end of '']'' flash through my mind. --] (]) 00:57, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
	:Well, there is ] as it currently exists, as well as ] as well as ] as well as ] as well as ] as well as ]. ] 16:19, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

			== File:Geogre-1.png listed for deletion ==
	::Science may try to explain why morality exists. It doesn't try to define what is right and what is wrong. --] 16:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
			A file that you uploaded or altered, ], has been listed at ]. Please see the ] to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. <!-- Template:Fdw --> ] (]) 00:43, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

			== File:Geogre-7.png listed for deletion ==
	::Not to mention God, the supernatural, and what happened before the Big Bang. If it can't be measured, science doesn't try to explain it. --] 21:16, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
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			== File:Geogre-5.png listed for deletion ==
	== Existentialism ==
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			== File:Geogre-6.png listed for deletion ==
	Is this the ]'s (and woman's) ]? Discuss. :-) ] 14:44, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
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			== File:Geogre-4.png listed for deletion ==
	:Well, you have to BYOB or coffee, and we're not very warm and friendly, but it is a little like the cold pizza dorm room, I suppose. I always thought those worthless sessions were worthwhile in some fashion other than the social. However, I do miss college town bookstores, so it'll have to do. ] 15:26, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
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	::Oh, and I would leave the staff there, although I'm not sure it's truth that keeps him in a box anymore. ] 16:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::Glad to see you followed the ]! :-) ] 16:34, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
	::Of course, ] believe deeply in ] ], as I think that this medium has a new form of ]. ] 16:37, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::I wasted a lovely message when I was fairly new to wiki - I will paste it here, altho stale appreciation is pathetic, I will hopefully at least merit sympathy that ''no one'' moused over or followed the linked words:
	:::My ] is out. I'm not really Mexican, and I'm not really a dog. FM, I hope you realize this is ] to me. And now I think we've really wasted enough of this page on this ]. ] 00:32, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
	:::I later had much better results on Bishy's talk page - its a pity to waste wit as I did with the first one though. ]<sup>]</sup> 22:49, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

			== File:Geogre-3.png listed for deletion ==
	:It's always a disappointment, but you're ''supposed'' to sniff loudly and conclude that everyone is beneath you. Well, that's what I ], anyway. I did a long one on Bishonen's page, full of funny eggs, and no one bothered, no one noticed. I was ], of course, but I knew, in my heart, that I was just too ] for the room. ] 03:54, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
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			==Non-free rationale for File:Red-Man2.png==
	== Semiotics ==
			]
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	Played much poker? --] 21:18, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

			==Orphaned non-free image File:Red-Man.png==
	== ] ==
			<span style="font-size:32px; line-height:1em">''']'''</span> Thanks for uploading ''']'''. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Misplaced Pages under a ]. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Misplaced Pages. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Misplaced Pages (see ]).

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	You seem to have made a masterful, well phrased, argument to
	# endorse deletion,
	# relist, and
	# redirect,
	all at the same time. I'd love to endorse it, but it seems to be physically impossible to do all three at the same time, and rather difficult to do any two, even. Could you please expound on what exactly you want there? Thanks. ] <sup>]</sup> 21:44, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

			==File source problem with File:E-Montagu.jpg==
	:This is the funniest thing I've seen here in a long time. And I've seen some pretty funny things around here. --] 21:47, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
			]
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	Sure. I'll go back. What I meant was 1) caution the recreator not to do that stuff, 2) scold the first recreator to go to DRV, where he could have gotten a relist, 3) actually vote to redirect only. I'm no fan of people recreating without using DRV. If it's done by an IP, we call the person a troll. If it's done by an admin, we call it a disagreement? Not me, man. ] 03:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

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	==Inline citations==
	Interesting discussion . ] \| ] 02:32, 22 November 2006 (UTC).

			<!-- License: Public domain, transcluded from Template:PD-old -->{{imbox
	== Greetings ==
			\| type = license
			\| image = ]
			\| imageright =
			\| text = This file is in the ''']''' because its copyright has expired in the United States and those countries with a copyright term of no more than the life of the author plus '''100''' years.

			}} --] (]) 20:38, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
	Hi Geogre,

			==File source problem with File:Stephenblois.jpg==
	Could you please have a look at please. Bishonen said that "Geogre, Bunch, and Newyorkbrad, I strongly suggest that this conflict would benefit from your input" but I don't know if it meant that I should post it on your talk page or not :) Anyways, Thanks , --] 04:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
			]
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	*I read about it on her page. I'm currently slightly busy and will be away from Misplaced Pages for a day or two soon. My ''general'' response to battling experts is to say, "Whether or not the X were in decline in the later middle ages is disputed. Lewis and --- suggest that X was suffering from theological and economic opposition, while the commercial author Johnson argues that this was not the case." In other words, we broaden our readers' understandings of the facts by pointing out to them the disagreement over the facts. Obviously, there is still a question of which view is foreground and which background, and people can quarrel about that, if they're in the mood to, but, if the article is not getting bloated, reporting the controversy in a dispassionate manner is my favorite way out. I hope that's applicable in this case. ] 04:27, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

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	==Infobox==
	I've forgotten where you discussion on infoboxes was located - I had an idea. How about this:-
	<div class="charboxwhite">
	<div class="NavFrame" style="clear:both; width:24%;">
	<div class="NavHead" style="background-color:lightblue; color:black">'''Less of an irritation?'''</div>
	<div class="NavContent" style="background-color:white; border-color:darkblue; text-align:center;">
	{{Infobox Architect
	\|image=frank_lloyd_wright.jpg
	\|caption=Frank Lloyd Wright at 165
	\|name=Frank Lloyd Wright
	\|nationality=American
	\|birth_date=8th June 1867
	\|birth_place=]
	\|death_date=9th April 1959
	\|death_place=
	\|practice_name=The disciples
	\|significant_buildings=]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	\|significant_projects=]
	\|awards=Numerous Glittering Genius Awards
	\|
	}}
	</div></div></div>
	<div class="charboxwhite">
	<div class="NavFrame" style="clear:both; width:24%;">
	<div class="NavHead" style="background-color:lightblue; color:black">'''Less of an irritation?'''</div>
	<div class="NavContent" style="background-color:white; border-color:darkblue; text-align:center;">
	{{Infobox Architect
	\|image=frank_lloyd_wright.jpg
	\|caption=Frank Lloyd Wright at 165
	\|name=Frank Lloyd Wright
	\|nationality=American
	\|birth_date=8th June 1867
	\|birth_place=]
	\|death_date=9th April 1959
	\|death_place=
	\|practice_name=The disciples
	\|significant_buildings=]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	]<br>
	\|significant_projects=]
	\|awards=Numerous Glittering Genius Awards
	\|
	}}
	</div></div></div>

			{{imbox\|
	There's a way of making them default to hidden without putting in two templates which someone with techy skill can sort out (and the alignment issues too I hope). For the aesthetes it's less obtrusive and gets away from the ] look of infobox pages - for the rest it retains whatever information might be included in the box. --] \| ] 01:51, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
			\|type=license
			\|image=none
			\|text=This image is in the public domain because under ], ] is necessary for copyright protection, and a mere photograph of an out-of-copyright two-dimensional work may not be protected under American copyright law. The official position of the Wikimedia Foundation is that all reproductions of public domain works should be considered to be in the public domain regardless of their country of origin (even in countries where ] is enough to make a reproduction eligible for protection).
			\|below={{imbox
			\| type = license
			\| image = ]
			\| imageright = ]
			\| text = This image is in the ''']''' in the United States. In most cases, this means that it was first published prior to January 1, 1923 (see ] for more cases). Other jurisdictions may have other rules, and this image '''might not''' be in the public domain outside the United States. See ] and ] for more details.}}
			}} --] (]) 20:40, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

			==File source problem with File:Matilda-coin.gif==
	:A small comment before Geogre wakes up to reply: the image shouldn't be hidden and needs to be brought out of the box. With the infoboxes, the image size allowed is dependent on the size of the box. The box also steals a few millimeters on each side which could have been used for a larger display of the image. This is more of a problem with broad images, which get forced into too small sizes, than with tall and narrow ones. ] 05:00, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
			]
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	:Gosh, that even works on my steam-powered computer/browser combination! -- ] ] 13:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

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	A discussion relevant to this is at ]. Where is the latest guideline for infoboxes, anyway? If there isn't one, then the manual of style might be a good place to argue for sensible stylistic guidelines that minimise the damage infoboxes can do. ] 02:57, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

			==File source problem with File:R-Steele.jpg==
	*Well, my rule is this: If it has ], it shouldn't have a box. Thus, bugs and bacteria and stars and space rocks should have boxes. Novelists, scientists, historians, religious figures, , dolphins, and chimpanzees should not. Porn stars are borderline. I have a more philosophical sounding argument for this position than what I've just said, but that's what it boils down to. If we see the thing as an object, then it is subject to taxonomy and classification. If it is a ''subject'' (as in "subjective consciousness"), then it is not to be subjected to classification, limitation, denuding, and dissecting with a box. ] 01:33, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
			]
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	== ArbCom questions ==

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	Hi. I'm ], editor of the ]. We're doing a series on ArbCom candidates, and your response is requested.

			{{imbox\|
	# What positions do you hold (adminship, mediation, etc.)?
			\|type=license
			\|image=none
			\|text=This image is in the public domain because under ], ] is necessary for copyright protection, and a mere photograph of an out-of-copyright two-dimensional work may not be protected under American copyright law. The official position of the Wikimedia Foundation is that all reproductions of public domain works should be considered to be in the public domain regardless of their country of origin (even in countries where ] is enough to make a reproduction eligible for protection).
			\|below={{imbox
			\| type = license
			\| image = ]
			\| imageright = ]
			\| text = This image is in the ''']''' in the United States. In most cases, this means that it was first published prior to January 1, 1923 (see ] for more cases). Other jurisdictions may have other rules, and this image '''might not''' be in the public domain outside the United States. See ] and ] for more details.}}
			}} --] (]) 20:42, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
			==File source problem with File:Rupert-Salzburg.jpg==
			]
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	# Why are you running for the Arbitration Committee?

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	# Have you been involved in any arbitration cases? In what capacity?
			==File source problem with File:Davanent.gif==
	#:As pest. ] \| ] 16:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC).
			]
	#::Excuse me? As scold, perhaps, but not pest. ] 16:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
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	Please respond on my talk page. We'll probably go to press late Monday or early Tuesday (UTC), but late responses will be added as they're submitted. Thanks, ] (]) 01:57, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

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	# Will becoming an arbitrator take away from your official duties as pest? Will there be an election to replace you as pest? How did you become pest, anyway? I didn't vote for you ...] <sup>]</sup> 17:09, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
	::I'm tempted to remove that as a personal attack.--]<sup>g</sup> 17:20, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

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	:::You mean I just heard yesterday that there is a steward election going on in addition to the ArbCom vote, and now I need to be monitoring RfPest also? ] 17:22, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
			==File source problem with File:CharlesII.jpg==
			]
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	::::Ah. You should have read the pre-publication Signpost pages. That would have told you earlier... (can anyone give me a good reason to be interested in the steward election). ] 18:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

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	:::::As best I can tell, Steward is a purely ministerial position, at least with respect to the English Misplaced Pages (e.g., they flick the switch to make someone an admin after an RfA succeeds, etc. but they don't decide whether the RfA has succeeded, they wait for the bureaucrat to tell them, and so forth). So they have an enormous amount of power in theory but not a lot of discretion about how to exercise it. I believe the steward play a more prominent role with respect to smaller-language Wikipedias and other projects that don't have in-house bureaucrats and the like, and also are involved in deciding which projects should be supported to begin with. Whether that translates into your being interested, or is even really accurate, is for minds greater than mine to figure out. :) ] 02:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
			==File source problem with File:J-Dryden.jpg==
			]
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	::::::Actually, Bureaucrats flick the promotion switch themselves. 'Crats can promote on their own langauge wiki, but they can't unpromote. —] (]) 19:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

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			== ''Ichthus'': January 2012 ==

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			Hi George, you once deleted douaihy page. How I can give you consent from our site to let the article written <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 02:20, 16 April 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			: I'm sorry but Geogre hasn't edited for over two years, so he may not notice your request. Misplaced Pages articles are only appropriate for subjects that meet our standards for notability, so I'd suggest you read the page ]. That should give you an idea of what sources need to be found to write an article that won't be deleted. Hope that helps, --] (]) 15:54, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
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			:Fixed. Obvious public domain image. University of Virginia had source info. ] ] 04:37, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

			::And fixed some more. All the best: ''] ]'', <small>22:48, 26 May 2014 (UTC).</small><br />

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			== Possibly unfree File:Millenium Hall.jpg ==
			] A file that you uploaded or altered, ], has been listed at ] because its copyright status is unclear or disputed. If the file's copyright status cannot be verified, it may be deleted. You may find more information on the ]. You are welcome to add comments to its entry at ] if you object to the listing for any reason. Thank you. <!-- Template:Fdw-puf --> ] (]) 16:13, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

			:How on earth could this possibly be unfree? The photographer uploaded it, gave it a public domain license, and has since left the project. The subject of the photograph is itself a public domain book. ] ] 17:59, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
			::
			:: It couldn't possibly be unfree, but it was one of many files nominated for deletion today by {{u\|Stefan2}}. It is clear that he has mixed up the concept of a photograph of a ''3D work of art'' such as a statue, with a photograph of 3D object such as a book or a painting, where the artwork is 2D and inegible to generate a fresh copyright. This is hardly surprising considering the rate he is working - he and could not possibly be doing due diligence in checking his nominations. This isn't the first time this has happened and I'm now sorely tempted to take this issue to ] and ask for a topic ban on his nominating files for deletion. What do you think, {{u\|Antandrus}}? --] (]) 20:50, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
			::: This is a photograph of a 3D object (a book), not a photograph of a 2D object (a page of a book). If the 3D parts of the picture are removed, then the picture can be kept, otherwise it has to be deleted. Also, {{u\|Antandrus}}, you claimed that the picture was uploaded by the photographer and that the photographer gave it a public domain licence, but I can't see any evidence for your claim. It doesn't say who the photographer is, and no licence was provided. The copyright tag which the uploader provided states that the author died more than 100 years ago and that the file therefore is in the public domain in countries with a copyright term of 100 years or less, and that the file also is in the public domain in the United States for an unstated reason. However, the copyright tag is not a ''licence'' since it doesn't contain any permission from a copyright holder but only provides information about limitations in copyright law. --] (]) 21:49, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
			:::: The work of art is 2D, just as it is when we take a photograph of a portrait. Are you going to go around nominating all the images we have of portraits because they are 3D objects? You'll be suggesting next that the thickness of the paint on the painting makes it 3D. --] (]) 00:27, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
			::::: The work of art is 2D, but this is not just a photograph of a 2D work of art. It is a photograph of a 3D object (a book on a table) which happens to contain a 2D artwork. Since the picture includes 3D stuff, it's non-free. --] (]) 10:33, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
			:::::: The solid realisation of any 2D art is bound to exist as part of a 3D object, but that in itself does not invalidate ''Bridgeman v Corel'' as we all know. In this case, the table and the paper are such an insignificant part of the final image that '']'' is bound to apply. If you don't understand that, then please consult: <samp>{{cite journal \|last1=Webbink \|first1=Mark \|last2=Johnny \|first2=Omar \|last3=Miller \|first3=Marc \|title=Copyright in Open Source Software - Understanding the Boundaries \|doi = 10.5033/ifosslr.v2i1.30 \|journal = International Free and Open Source Software Law Review \|volume=2 \|year=2010}}</samp> We are trying on this project to support and expand free content; we don't need your uninformed rhetoric whose only effect is to needlessly impede or block the progress of open knowledge. --] (]) 18:30, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

			== Precious ==
			{{user precious\|header=sonnets of knowledge with passion\|thanks=for quality articles on literature and religion such as ], ] ("Wrote it. Fought over it. Rewrote it from scratch") and ], for the insight of your essay ] "anyone who thinks that they can win a struggle against the voices of oppression on Misplaced Pages is misdirecting his or her energies grossly, if not criminally", for your user page as a piece of inspiring literature including critical commentary, for "The idea is not to be competing, but rather looking for elements of trust." - missed - repeating from ] ("I'm sick of words: they are so lightly spoken"):}} --] (]) 12:00, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

			{{User QAIbox
			\| title = Awesome
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			\| bold = ]
			}}
			--] (]) 06:36, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
			== ] of ] ==
			]

			The file ] has been ] because of the following concern:
	::::Stewards are ''very'' important. How do you know which wine to select with dinner without the steward coming to your table? Now that they've finally stopped claiming to be the legitimate ], they're non-controversial. ] 03:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
			<blockquote>unused, low-res, no obvious use</blockquote>
	:::::Do we call our female stewards, ]? Anyway I think there only current duties consist of ]. ] ] 06:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::::] is our in-house peerage expert, but I believe that ] by ] is the canonical work on this subject. ] 17:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::We have to avoid gender biased language, and so we seek out a neuter nominal ending from an antique language -- preferrably one involving a letter not present on a standard keyboard. In this case, the answer is to eliminate the gender ending altogether and merely call them ]. As for the usefulness and importance of ''those,'' I simply remind you of what Sir Billy Gibbons ] on the subject. As for the masculinist, colonialist Steward, several nations discovered that they didn't need one at all. ] 10:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::::Of course "stew"! However for ''that'' meaning I think some prefer "sex worker", "adult service provider" or "satisfaction engineer". By the way up here in ] we like to call a wine steward a "sommelier", makes us feel more high falutin. ] ] 17:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::The patron of a sommelier is a somnambulist, no doubt. I have heard them called by that name, but it lacks the ring of, "Hey, garcon!" and so I doubt it will catch on. For the workers of the stews, I prefer "persons of negotiable affections." Here in the south, though, we have a wine choice of ] or ], depending upon how dry the town is. ] 17:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
	:::::One New Years Eve, when I was six or so my mother gave me and my sister, Welch's grape juice mixed with Seven Up, telling us it was wine — we got quite drunk. ] ] 18:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
	::::That sounds better than most of the New Year's Eves I've spent. Besides, it's better to be drunk on Welch's than despair, which is much more thoroughly intoxicating but much more bitter. (Only the calendar changes on 1/1. (Or, for Europeans, 1/1.)) ] 19:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

			While all constructive contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, pages may be ].
	I view being elected to ArbCom as a way of ''furthering'' my role as ] to Misplaced Pages. It will allow me to wag my finger from a much greater height, and I plan on finger segment augmentation surgery, so that my finger can be much longer. I think it's important that people feel the breeze when a finger has been wagged at them, and it is always better to wag a finger than to flip a finger. ] 17:52, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

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	:] should do it. —] (]) 18:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

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	::That is ''so'' funny! ] 18:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

			<span style="color:red;font-weight:bold;">This bot DID NOT nominate any file(s) for deletion; please refer to the ] of each individual file for details.</span> Thanks, ] (]) 01:01, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
	:Yep. I was thinking of the Fin-Longer all along, in fact. I remember that episode, and I recall that the Fin-Longer could go very long indeed. ] 19:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
			:
			: It's worth noting that a higher resolution version of the file is available at https://www.britannica.com/biography/John-Arbuthnot so presumably Britannica finds the image useful. In any case, if the image is required here in future, it can always be sourced from the Britannica article as any image of a portrait by an 18th century artist is clearly in the public domain under US law. --] (]) 02:36, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
			:: Couldn't we simply use it in the person's article? --] (]) 07:08, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
			:::
			::: {{re\|Gerda Arendt}} We could, but I don't think it would improve the article; it would be merely decorative. It was actually in use as the lead image from 2006 to 2008 when it was changed for the present colour image by . As that has remained in place for eleven years, I think that there's a consensus that the present image is superior to this one which is being considered for deletion. In other words, there's no information that I can see in this image that the one in the article doesn't already convey in a more pleasing fashion. --] (]) 13:06, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
			:::: I didn't think of using it instead of the lead image, but in addition, showing him at a different angle, and age as it seems. --] (]) 13:09, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
			::::: It was the idea of adding it that I meant would be "merely decorative". Nevertheless, it might work if you think it brings something extra to the article. The original caption for that image was "John Arbuthnot by Sir Godfrey Kneller shows him at the height of his literary output." So you could use that perhaps further down the article. If you do add the image, then decline the prod as "now in use". Cheers --] (]) 14:05, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
			:::::: done --] (]) 10:51, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

			== note ==
	:By the way, while Bishonen and AnonEMouse say "pest" and Geogre says "scold" (common or otherwise) I prefer to think he is our ]. ] ] 22:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

			interesting page. thanks for posting your essays here!! --] (]) 23:13, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
	== And now... ==
			== ] of ] ==
			]

			The article ] has been ] because of the following concern:
	...for something completely different. Geogre, I wonder if I might seek you input on the CfD debate regarding ] ? I think the matter clear-cut, but I could be wrong, and as it stands I don't think there's definite consensus on the matter. Best, ] ] 16:21, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
			<blockquote>Without sources for nine years. I don't see real indication of notability here. BEFORE completed in Google Books and News (I have no access to British newspapers). Deprod if you can cite significant coverage, but be sure to actually cite it, or it'll go to AfD.</blockquote>

			While all constructive contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, pages may be ].
	:You bet. I have to be busy very soon, but I'll take a look. I assume that "inherently POV" is a deletion guideline criterion in categories as well as lists? If so, deciding when someone is locked up for a political action is always going to be a split decision. ] 16:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

			You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{Tlc\|proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your ] or on ].
	::Thanks. ] ] 16:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

			Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{Tlc\|proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the ], but other ]es exist. In particular, the ] process can result in deletion without discussion, and ] allows discussion to reach ] for deletion.<!-- Template:Proposed deletion notify --> ] (]) 22:54, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
	:::Mackensen, lest it be lost in the threaded discussion, take note that I've irrelevantly dragged you in to the thread just above. ] 17:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

			:Hi Diamond -- Geogre has been gone for a while. I removed the prod, as this is a significant organization. Needs some references to bring it to 2020 standards, as in 2005 we usually did not include footnotes, only a general links/sources/references section at the end. (Any watchers on this page still?) ] ] 23:19, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
	== Page make-over? ==
			:: I know of a couple. {{smiley\|wink}} --] (]) 00:00, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
			:: ... count me in --] (]) 10:12, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

			== Featured article review for Restoration Spectacular ==
	Are you considering a user page and talk page make-over before the election officially opens? :-) ] 16:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
	:Oh, talk page, surely. I don't mind this last bit, but the stuff about meth-a-phor is dangerous. The user page...I dunno. I'm probably going to edit the opening bit and remove my promises in re Aphra Behn and the bit about having moved, as that was a year ago. ] 17:54, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

			I have nominated ] for a ]. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets ]. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are ]. -- ] (]) 00:47, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

			== Featured Article Review for ''The Country Wife'' ==
	== RU There? ==

			I have nominated ] for a ]. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets ]. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are ]. -- ] (]) 20:04, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
	I think I have worked out what I was doing wrong, can you send me a message as an expirement. ] 17:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
			== Nomination of ] for deletion ==
	*I can, but you need to open your e-mail page. ] 18:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
			<div class="afd-notice">
			<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">]</div>A discussion is taking place as to whether the article ''']''' is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to ] or whether it should be ].

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	This was probably inevitably going to happen sooner or later: ]. ] 22:19, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
			<!-- Template:Afd notice --></div> ] (] \| ]) 08:03, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
	:They missed . Think I should mention it? Or as the only person with that bumper sticker, perhaps I should just hush up. They don't list yours, Geogre, should I claim foul because they linked to Daniel.Bryants and FloNights, giving them unfair exposure? (For those Other than Geogre: This is sarcasm. For Geogre: you knew that already, why are you reading this parenthetical remark which is clearly not addressed to you?) ]<sup>]</sup> 22:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
	::I added JzG's one to ]. So now there are four. I'm going to point out the category at the WP:AN thread. ] 00:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
	:I agree with JoshuaZ. This particular election is much more mellow than the last one, and we don't have any seriously fiery or magnetic candidates running. Snowspinner and I are probably the most controversial of the well established folks running (controversial in the sense that we're known for issues that people disagree on (except that I am safe and will not hurt anyone)). The last one, I think, had Kelly in it and occurred right after the big userbox war, so there were some very, very passionate voters. In fact, the userbox war and the pedophile war were both fresh wounds and raging fires, so it was a rotten environment for an election where anyone involved in either of those ran.
	:However, when I saw the heading, I worried that someone might be demanding '''pictures''' of the candidates, and that would have cost me votes, big time. I mean, take a look at my picture (below). People with petropecia (rock hair) are not accepted by society. ] 03:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
	]

Latest revision as of 02:36, 11 March 2022

This user may have left Misplaced Pages. Geogre has not edited Misplaced Pages since 29 July 2009. As a result, any requests made here may not receive a response. If you are seeking assistance, you may need to approach someone else.

Essays

It's new! It's exciting! It's an idea whose time came months ago: The Tags and Boxes Player's Guide Continuation: The Demotion Idea. If RFA is "broken," let's not make it FUBAR: The RFA Derby It's newer! It's not exciting! Essay on Wiki Cults of Personality My attempt at impersonating Marshal MacLuhan: IRC considered Blocklogz, A Wikiwebi Comix: My first attempt at hip artwerkx. Oh, more IRC bashing from an IRC hater, etc. You know -- just whining from a luzer.: People are still getting blocked by "unanimous" IRC consent. So You Wanna Be An Edit Warrior? An essay on how to tell if you may already have the qualifications to be an edit warrior and not even know it!

New: User:Kosebamse/IRC explains pretty well why Misplaced Pages lost three of its most serious content contributors to salve the egos of some few people and save the playtime of those same few people. The "IRC RfAr": An explanation of "What happened" during the IRC arbitration case, and why it cost Misplaced Pages far, far more than it gave. The long winded analysis of "civility," with a short and succinct page to follow

New Messages

Talk archives

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31

Massages

For the children

For the many readers, there is a new blog entry. (If this makes no sense to you, then ignore it.) Geogre (talk) 10:38, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

For the adult-ering

I would like input from the people who have seen my ideas for how to form a council to advise on the future. I've written some up, and I've sent them to a few people via e-mail. Should I post them here? Geogre (talk) 18:52, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm interested too, Geogre -- please post here (or shoot me an e-mail). We seem to be coming unglued rather badly, at least in the matter of governance, and I fear the process is accelerating. Antandrus (talk) 19:12, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Initially, I was concerned that my name is too "big." I don't mean that I am, but rather that there are people who will oppose anything simply if my name is near it. I had preferred the ideas to come out anonymously or from several directions, because I think they're good (well, I would) and should answer our needs without introducing new griefs. I'll post 'em here by tomorrow, I suppose, and, wiki-style, leave them for anyone to adapt as they see fit. Geogre (talk) 21:09, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I've noticed, at least in the past three years or so, that popularity on Misplaced Pages negatively correlates with content contribution, and sometimes even with integrity. But don't quote me: I'm just a nasty old fool. And people skilled with words are not always popular, for we are after all writing an encyclopedia, where words are important, and envy is more implacable than hatred (La Rochefoucauld was right about everything). But I'll shut up now. Antandrus (talk) 21:30, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, see below for the big kahuna idea. I really, really don't care who gets credit for it. Let Kelly Martin take credit for it, if she wants, so long as they do get a policy council and get it in something like what I've described. You know, I was reflecting, the other day, when I was explaining why I don't need Misplaced Pages and it doesn't need me anymore, that it's not the same thing as it was when I heard a call on National Public Radio for over-educated, under-employed people to add stuff. I remember hearing that, when I was working as a librarian in a closed library. I thought it was genius that they were taking advantage of all the ABD's and grad students in the world, but those people are now the ones Misplaced Pages doesn't want. -Bot operators with less personal skill than their creation are "mediators," and "cool" is a long comment. Theses are all original research. Footnotes dominate here, where they don't even exist in academia, and people expect a citation to "the Earth is the third planet from the sun." O tempore, O mores. (But John Gay said envy's a sharper spur than pay for wits; it's a cudgel for those without wit.) Geogre (talk) 22:08, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

How to get and structure an advisory council

What you will need for this project: One Misplaced Pages, an estimate of a representative sample of active editors, and several stewards. You will also need an Initiator. That's YOU, and hopefully you are plural, not singular.

1. Outline a set of criteria that would make a person qualified -- experience with all elements of Misplaced Pages, breadth of edits, calm, intelligence. Think about the criteria very, very carefully and word them even more carefully. This is the one place to be excruciatingly careful, to get a great deal of input, and to be sure that the end goal is always in mind. That goal is wise policy, nothing else.

Why: Criteria keep people from wandering, and most people will be more honest, if they're given qualities to assess than if they're asked who they think is best. It's one of those paradoxes of evaluation that's pretty well known in business and education. This is why, for example, most employee and educational assessments are structured.

2. Ask editors to recommend someone other than themselves according to those criteria, rating the person on a 1-10 on each. The recommendations go to a group of coordinators or the stewards. They are not posted openly, and any person advocating or discussing voting or canvassing for members to the council will be in violation of WP:CANVAS, including on IRC and e-mail. We will have to rely upon honor, but Misplaced Pages was founded on such principles.

Why: Obvious, really. The idea is not to be competing, but rather looking for elements of trust. This cuts down on some of the, "Oh, well, that person is evil" stuff. Obviously, it leaves big weaknesses, but step 3 can help forefend. Additionally, prior and future attempts stall because of politics and personalities and self-love and self-importance. Provided that alternate accounts are not involved, this should avoid that to some degree, and since these are simply sent in rather than posted publicly, it will help. We don't want cadres and factions and points of view trying to fight. We want wise policy and we want trust. Have people assess for someone, not against.

3. Get a list of the top 60 finishers and then make them candidates for consideration listed on a namespace page by the stewards. There will be positively no statements by the candidates, and no oppose votes. Instead, there will be a two week assessment period, during which editors will, again using the criteria, give 1-10 scores on the various criteria for the sixty persons listed.

3a. Selection will not be a balance of oppose and support or anything so compromised. Instead, the stewards will have determined a representative sample of the editing population and divided that by ten. No candidate will be successful without an aggregate score above that mark (this functioning like quorum).

3b. If a person sees a very serious reason for disqualification, he or she will inform the stewards and coordinators. Disqualification criteria are that the person will be likely to act in a private, national, or special interest rather than a wide, international, or community interest. Disqualification will have nothing to do with "conflict" or "drama" or even "policy violations" of the candidate, as it is not up to the stewards or coordinators to tell the project who it trusts. However, if a person has a vested interest or a conflict of interest or has evidence of a private desire that trumps the general, then that would be a reason for disqualification.

3c. The coordinators and stewards simply tabulate the scores. All parties are prohibited from revealing or discussing results on any medium until the final 60 are posted.

Why: This council will not have "power" to harm or help people, so the idea that a person on it will get to be important is silly. When matters are "tied" in the minds of the stewards and coordinators, the presumption should be for safety/disqualification, but the criteria must be solely oriented toward communal/private interest and wisdom/folly. A wise thought from an unpleasant person is worth a dozen banal platitudes. Secrecy is vital, because any hints about how things will going, especially on non-portable, non-transparent media like IRC and e-mail, will result in "votes" and hate fests.

4. The result of the assessment will be a council of TWENTY people. Of the twenty, five will serve at a time for one month periods. Membership will rotate every month.

Why: This may be the most vital part of the plan. By having the groups rotate, it prevents personalities from dominating, so no one person can bully or dominate the rest. Additionally, it keeps one person or five people from becoming "important" or thinking they have power of any sort. All of the anxiety about the council being a "government" or being "power" or being a "revolution" should be put to bed instantly by the knowledge that it will be a continually shifting set of persons.

5. Method: The council should appoint or seek representatives to speak for separate viewpoints on a given issue. These "champions" or representatives will present arguments for their position, arguments against alternative positions, along with careful rebuttals of claims against their position. They will not involve themselves in direct, interlined conversation with champions/representatives of other points of view on council pages. The council will review all cases, plus any volunteer cases ("amicus briefs"), and submit questions to champions. They will then fashion their own policy recommendation(s).

Why: Again, we've seen death by argument too many times to count, and we especially see the routine "forest for the trees" sort of argument that Misplaced Pages is famous for. No one gets anywhere when discussing policy because every single person needs to offer his opinion, even if it's almost identical to the twenty opinions just above. All of the "me too" and the "yeah but" stuff gets so thick that no one can support anyone or any thing. If the council wants to actually review and fashion policy recommendations (only recommendations), then it needs to basically research policy alternatives. They can find the passionate true believers of the sides and let them get all the best ideas from their side together and speak with one voice, and then they can also listen to anyone who walks by who happens to have thought about things. Additionally, many times our best thinking is not found among the advocates, because people have gone away from an issue in disgust. Open the issue of infoboxes, and you'll see hundreds of editors who hate them but gave up arguing. The point is that the "champion" method and the "amicus" system allows clear presentation and consideration for the council.

6. When the council concludes its deliberations, it makes a policy recommendation to Misplaced Pages that Misplaced Pages must approve. It is not automatically policy, but it is also not for arguing about. It is an up or down vote, with a presumption of approval. This means that any proposal that garners quorum and an approval rate of 67% or more will be adopted.

Why: If this is a thing where the council makes a big RFC, the result will be "no consensus" to everything. Instead, the council should get a bit of a break, so that a council recommendation simply needs approval (say a 2/3rds majority, with quorum in place). If it goes to Village Pump where every person gets a brand new opinion, then we'll have every person trying to speak for the novelty of speaking, and then we'll get reiteration, and then....

What to do with these?

Use 'em. Claim 'em as your idea, if you want. I don't care. I just think it's a good idea, and I think it's a damn sight better than ArbCom picking their favorite warriors or votes or some other rot. Tell me, honestly, if I haven't avoided the problems.

The point is, there are ways of doing these things, people, if we just stop thinking in terms of power and appointing ourselves demigods. Geogre (talk) 21:59, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that Geogre - I've pasted it to , on my way out.......--Joopercoopers (talk) 17:34, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I hope it does some good. I don't care about the credit, but it seems to me that one of the reasons Misplaced Pages has been doomed is that the project is a good deal more socially adventurous than the people at it. While it does all kinds of interesting things to notions of authority and control, they keep looking for authority and control. It's as if they're here, but they don't believe in it.

If we managed to get 100,000 articles and to move up to the top 20 in Alexa with just people and no freaking out about power, then I'm going to bet we can negotiate among ourselves to find the possible and impossible solutions for policy, too, so long as no one gets to be in charge. (There are two ways to win. One is a dictator. The other is a monastery. I've never heard of a monastery accidentally wiping out the population of a country before.) Geogre (talk) 19:08, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeah. Of course all the people here exist in the real world within structures of power and authority - more acutely for the kids of course, so it's hardly a surprise that they bring shackles of the mind with them to this place. Look forward to your paper G - buzz me when it's published will you? --Joopercoopers (talk) 19:43, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I guess I gave too much of a preview, there, but, of course, that's what it's all about. The historical moment. No one is to be blamed for being in a historical moment, but when the reason they never look above and beyond it is neediness and personal psychology, it can get really distasteful. I would love to have real surveys of Misplaced Pages administrators to make my case, but no one can get such surveys. Anyway, I'm writing, forever writing, and the thing is a monster. It's taking forever to get down, and then it will take a while to trim and dress up, and then I'll have to find the right outlet for it. I'll let you know, though. Geogre (talk) 00:12, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Don't these paradigm shifts usually have some kind of Charismatic Leader, some agent of change? Or at least, some voices in the wind, from the same direction? Cometh the hour, cometh the man. Unfortunately we're still waiting for the man. up to Lexington......hmmm hmmm. Your fundamental material for the historical moment though, is still pretty much the same homo sapien of 200,000 years ago. "Fred.F.Stone likes hunting, screwing, acceptance and problem solving for profit, will gladly bash neighbour in pursuance of these, but recently finds more profit in cooperation." Whatever the future holds, it would be surprising if it wasn't affected by some abstracts of those fundamentals. In short, to overcome neediness and personal psychology, aren't crowds usually invited to put them aside in favour of he 'lofty purpose'? WP might have the lofty purpose, but somehow it rewards the needy and sick - hardly Darwinian, but perhaps the societal aspects of this place do have a use after all. Joopercoopers (talk) 00:48, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

As I told a friend, recently, I have reception aesthetics dentures, but they're fitted on Marxist gums. The great man theory's problem is that, after he chases all your women around, he inevitably turns insipid or nasty. The odd thing is that the Great Man is, interestingly, not at home in a real Darwinian model, and yet it seems to fit so well with our concepts of the "primitive" that we forget that every time, in history, that we see a great man arise, he is promising to lead us boldly to the future, to clear away the brush of the past and make the trains run on time (by changing the time tables to match their departure and arrivals).

I'll have to go with e-mail on the rewards of neediness. I think Misplaced Pages is curiously designed for that. There is a particularity about this project that attracts and promotes particular sets of psychological profiles that are very ill suited to analysis. In essence, I think Misplaced Pages is a second life, and people who are looking for a chance to reconstruct and who are seeking recompense for the wounds and grievances of the first life are going to devote their energies toward the reconstruction and mirroring of the social orders that "went wrong" in reality. Unlike Second Life, Misplaced Pages is an actual do-over for a good many people, and therefore one has varying degrees of attraction based on varying degrees of "wrong" suffered. Geogre (talk) 10:29, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not so sure about the 'great man' not being at home in the Darwinian model. Certainly it worked for Genghis Khan - what percentage of Asia now carries his genes? 1 in 12? . It certainly didn't do JFK's chances of finding a date any harm either :-) An interesting question is, if Obama delivers on the promise invested in him, will that be a competitive advantage for his children? I'm not so sure about the inevitable corruption of 'great leaders' either (where's Luther King, Gandhi or Mandela in that model - apart from 2/3rds of them having the sense of timing to die at the 'right' moment?). My Grandparents are still firmly of the opinion, that without Churchill to demonstrate the bulldog spirit, to remind us of our national traits and to buck us up with brilliant rhetoric, we'd be lost by now. It's speculative of course, maybe we could have done better than the bad-tempered depressive alcoholic with a boy's-own-adventure sense of military strategy (the nation certainly thought so in peacetime), but leadership is not to be dismissed so glibly I think - that generation is still marked by the tangible excitement of having experienced a nation truly pulling together. Maybe what's really missing at WP is an external threat - but now I'm sounding like Rumsfeld - lawsuits anyone? In any event, it's not cohesion we need, but values embedded in the system that serve our purpose better - an encyclopaedia is a strange place to find systemic anti-intellectualism.

Really though, aren't we all fundamentally motivated by selfishness? Even if I devote my life to charity, I feel better, I'm rewarded in some way. I try to remember that about people's motives, it makes me generally less disappointed in people :-) The long term trouble with Marxism, in my v. humble and uniformed view, is it appeals to idealism. Idealism can sublimate these selfish desires in the short term, because the idea of being part of 'something new and consequential', works as a reward in itself, not to mention the reward of love/respect/acceptance from being part of the 'group'. But in the long term, we revert to more petty and prosaic behaviours. That doesn't deny though that lifting our heads once in a while and running after someone or some group with vision is an entirely useless pursuit. But, as you say Geogre, your essentially un-clubbable, so you'll probably see that differently to your ovine peers --Joopercoopers (talk) 13:19, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Sauce for a gander

There's a surprisingly interesting and cordial conversation going on here about reliable academic sources, which you might be interested in bringing your laser scalpel to. --Joopercoopers (talk) 18:44, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I've tried, but the problem is that, although they're all on the right track, they're falling victim to Misplaced Pages argument. One can find exceptions to everything. There are always going to be peer reviewed bits of horse hockey, and there are going to be eminent people who lose their minds. The general guideline is sound, but once we start trying to use general guidelines as if they were predictive laws without employing individual consideration, it's hopeless. The problem is that we are never going to shed ourselves of someone trying to say, "Oh, but there are books supporting my crank view, and they're from academic presses." To see where things get really hot, look at the nationalism wars. The fringe science stuff is tame in comparison. In those cases, you have the most prestigious presses of two nations offering up officially sanctioned accounts that say opposing things, and then, here at Misplaced Pages, we get bloody battles, with both trying to throw fecal matter at the other's press and universities and nation. The Russian/Polish "arguments" are crimes in progress, for example, and they are entirely insoluble without saying, "Well, we're Anglo-Americans, and so we're going to use our nationalist points of view." Shy of that, there's practically nothing to say to distinguish or quiet them. Geogre (talk) 00:29, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Motion re alternate account

There is a motion at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Motions concerning your alternate account; you are invited to comment if you wish. --bainer (talk) 13:14, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Fielding

Regardless of what happens, I would like to have your input on Fielding related stuff. There are a few pages that you were directly involved in, and some others that your opinion would be important. I plan on finishing the later plays coming up this fall and try to produce the bulk of his major works (including some poems and the rest). The one priority coming up will be The Covent-Garden Journal‎. When I have a chance, I will be adding some more information on the literary criticism and other notable aspects in order to prepare it for GA level. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:50, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Could you please weigh in on the above discussion? I proposed adding some more about specific criticism and the such. AD cut it down and left some in. However, you may have some differing opinions from us on what would be effective or not. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:45, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Geogre_and_Risker

A request for arbitration has been filed. You may wish to make a statement. Durova 02:46, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Someone (I'm not sure who) once said "Don't let the bastards get you down" a motto I have always kept, so I recommend it. Unlike you, I only do poetry that I was compelled to learn in school, but I think many would do well to remember this "IF you can keep your head when all about you - Are losing theirs and blaming it on you, - If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you - But make allowance for their doubting too" and so on, I forget the rest, but I think the meaning is clear, and then my own favourite line "Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch" which is something you do very well! You see the other day, someone kindly fixed up this thing for me, which makes all the admins names on my watchlist appear blue, and do you know? - They are so in the majority, it has led me to the conclusion that not being an Admin is almost an affectation these days - rather like saying "look at me, I'm special" Funny how things turn out isn't it? Giano (talk) 21:57, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Arbitration motion: Geogre

I have just added Motion 3 calling for your de-sysopping. It is in your best interests to respond on the arbitration pages urgently to this and the other interests raised. I am sending you a copy of this message by email. Roger Davies 08:33, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that once you have taken something from them (in this case - the tools) then they can threaten to take something away from you. Everyone who knows you, is 100% certain, beyond any possible doubt, that deceiving or building false concencus had never even crossed your too philosophical mind. In that respect, you are probably the mosy naively honest person on Misplaced Pages. The reasons you created Utgard were completely understandable and justified; they are also none of Durova and co's business. However, an ignorance of those facts has proven a source of long sought jubilation and glee to certain editors - and those whose most philosophical thoughts probably concern only their digestion and bowels. This is the crux of the problem, those who have their minds on higher things, seldom give sufficient thought to matters more base in appearance. Hence, you are in this predicament. It's not as though you use the tools - so if I were you, I would tell them where to stuff their bloody tools, but of course you are not me - which is why they are still whooping with such obscene joy as they seek to take from you and you remain silent. At least, this way, you have a dignity that others in this sorry case appear to lack. Giano (talk) 09:52, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

As silent types go, you are proving pretty affective. However, I and some others are having some problems here. Why has this very commonly known alternative account, known in the highest circles, suddenly become a problem, that needs such public and drastic attention? There seems to be a huge movement wanting you de-sysopped; you certainly seem to have attracted some once powerful people (a whole unprecedented platoon of ex-arbs, undermining the present ArbCom, anxious to see you disposed of) I am just wondering why they and so many others from a certain quarter of Misplaced Pages are demanding your downfall - As disciples of Machiavelli they are provincial and clumsy, but they are singing in unison almost like a heavenly choir - or at least an orchestrated body. Any ideas, you would like to share with us? Giano (talk) 21:52, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

All I need to know is- did you use the "secondary" account to add to discussions/voting anyplace that your Geogre account was used. If not, then wheres the harm? If so... well that's a whole'nuther can o' worms. Good luck, because I've always appreciated your abilities/intellect. Best Regards, Hamster Sandwich (talk) 22:05, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Ego sum tristis

I have really enjoyed reading your work here, especially that which you've done on the older literature articles. I discovered the troubles you're having when I checked in on a case in which user:Abd had listed my username in his evidence. As you've now not edited since the case began, I'm afraid we may have lost you, and that makes me very sad, if true. While I hope it's not true, I just wanted to post a note here to let you know that your contributions here are greatly appreciated, by more people than you'll probably every know. As the thread topic says, Ego sum tristis. Unitanode 05:23, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I do hope that those who clamored for his "administrative head" on a platter enjoy what they have wrought. Unit Anode 18:18, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to hear ...

Of your troubles. You have been kind to me in the past and very fair, and I wish you the best. Peter Damian (talk) 21:52, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Motion 4

Hello,

I've moved your latest statement to the new motion I've posted to propose that User:Utgard Loki be unblocked and available for your use as an alternate account, provided it is clearly identified as such. This is partly to ensure that everyone has the opportunity to read your statement given that the motions they were attached to will close shortly and it would have been archived along with them. — Coren 21:27, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Motion Passed

Hey Geogre, unfortunately the Arbitration Committee has passed a motion to desysop your account. You are free to re-apply through the usual channels. On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Cbrown1023 talk 00:27, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Please note that another motion is also close to passing. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:57, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

G'day Geogre

seems a bit trite to say 'hope you're well' - but I do, so there you go..... Anywhoo... I thought I'd come by here to let you know that I've put a note on Utgard's userpage mentioning the connection to this account - I felt that the template was a bit rude, so replaced it. The only place therefore that a 'geogre sock' template is in use is over at my userpage, where it's a sort of poor man's satire / comment on the whole situation - I'm thinking of being Spartacus on tuesdays, thursdays and saturdays, and Geogre on mondays, wednesdays and fridays. Sundays I'll pick a new and exciting 'master' account, and wear that label with pride, don't tell anyone, but I've always wanted to be SandyGeorgia ;-)

Doesn't really need saying, but you should obviously feel free to revert, edit, or whatever at Utgard's page - certainly if you feel my oar is getting in the way. Take care, and insert a genuine 'I hope you can rise above all this, because your contributions to the project, in various 'spaces', really are among the absolute finest' type statement here :-) Privatemusings (talk) 02:21, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I, too, wish to convey my sympathy to you—and my contempt to the rash, harsh punishment you've suffered, of course, without being afforded a chance to defend yourself. Orwellian process, from start to finish. El_C 09:26, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

The AC is far too incompetent to do Orwellian. This was more like a Drumhead court-martial.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 21:59, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

They're as full of promise and ultimate disappointment as New Labour, we're clearly into the Brown phase. --Joopercoopers (talk) 22:06, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I think everyone is mistaken about Orwell. Normally, people responding in such a manner to such a situation would say Kafkaesque. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:17, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

An offer

There is an offer for you at Misplaced Pages:RFAR#Statement_from_Durova. Contact me if you wish to pursue it. Durova 14:51, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Why don't you just knit him a nice sweater instead...or maybe a scarf?--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 21:55, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Or a noose. --Joopercoopers (talk) 21:59, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Only if he accepts her nomination for RfA.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 22:01, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

(EC) Now, now, Joopers, I'm sure Durova didn't mean her essay to sound at all conditional or baiting. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 22:02, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Really? Because it sounded awfully to me like Durova has offered to cut her toenails if Geogre cuts his throat - now that's reciprocity folk! --Joopercoopers (talk) 22:16, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Well she should cut hers first, since they keep tearing holes in her favorite moccasins.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 22:22, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Given the level of almost paranoid distrust displayed by some individuals on this page, I can well understand why you might like to avoid the politics of this place. And, yes, I'm fairly sure that you and some others might count me as one of the "enemy" as well. I did and do think that it might be a good idea for you to be subject to a confirmation vote, primarily for two reasons (1) the fact that the two names could be seen by those with no prior knowledge of the dual identity as being two individuals taking part in one discussion, and (2) far more importantly, as a form of, well, warning, to any admin in the future who might take recourse to multiple accounts, and, like NYB said, probably by accident have eventually wound up using them for a purpose for which they were never initially intended, but which could be seen as being to some level problematic. Having said all that, I would also be honored to second (or third or whatever) your nomination for reconfirmation should that situation develop. John Carter (talk) 22:33, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Guys, Durova has to be allowed to disagree without being personally attacked. It was this vituperative atmosphere we've created around ourselves that caused Geogre to want another account in the first place. It would be great if we could learn from this that differences of opinion and criticism don't have to escalate into wikihounding and disrespect. We may be about to lose a really great contributor because of it. SlimVirgin 23:56, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

It would seem the offer is being viewed with the distain it deserves, as an attempt to wash blood from stained sheets. I wonder if Risker whould have been given the same 'opportunity' if Durova had managed to bring her down as collateral damage. This is high politics of the kind Durova has been so careful to distance herself from since !!; so the slate can be forgiven and wiped clean. I think all that effort is ruined here. Ouch, opps. The self interest and politics here are so naked and obvious here, I have to agree with Geogre in that 'ye all bore me'. Ceoil (talk) 15:04, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Stallo

Given that the image was used on this very page, it seemed appropriate that we have an article about the things. So I've started off Stallo for you. Uncle G (talk) 01:20, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Motion Passed

Hello Geogre, just noting for the record that a new motion has passed relating to you at WP:AC/N On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, MBisanz 01:43, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

An impotent rogue speaks...

Per your comment at the arbcom case "Little did I know that such a collection of impotent rogues would gather to express their grave displeasure and sober defense of the letter of the law. Each of them united solely by the fact that, in the past, I had been instrumental in exposing his misdeeds ..." I would be grateful to know what misdeeds you imagine I have committed or that you have exposed. DuncanHill (talk) 15:38, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Sysop status

If you do seek to regain sysop status, as I have already said, I would be honored to be allowed to be one of your nominators. John Carter (talk) 14:02, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

This week's blog post

Honey, that is so beautifully written!

And some great quotes: "Ignorance is the mother of admiration"! Ha! :-D I'd never heard that one.

What's a divot? Bishonen | talk 21:13, 3 August 2009 (UTC).

'tis true. Reminded me of the much missed Alistair Cooke. (The beeb never did find a way to plug the gap he left and the ocean between us can only widen without it - How's your radio voice Geogre?). 'Replace your Divots' is parlance from that dreadful waste of a good walk, meaning clods of earth belted out with a driver. --Joopercoopers (talk) 21:27, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Indeed! Are we sharing this, with a link, or keeping it for ourselves? Giano (talk) 21:38, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Heel America Part One --Joopercoopers (talk) 21:42, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to correct you Joopers, but a driver is usually swung at a teed ball, so no divots there. Nitpickingly yours, Kosebamse (talk) 08:25, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

You've clearly not seen the rare occasions I've teed off. --Joopercoopers (talk) 21:08, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Apologies

I hope it's Ok with you, but I have made this edit to your user page it was upsetting some people and causing concern that the ritual drumming out of the regiment had not been performed. It's funny isn't it, how on this case the honour was drummed out with you. Giano (talk) 18:49, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I miss you

I miss you. :-( Bishonen | talk 00:37, 10 August 2009 (UTC).

I agree with the sentiment. At the risk of gushing, something I doubt Geogre appreciates much, I think he's the finest writer I've encountered in almost six years at this place. Geogre, be well; some of us do miss you more than you may ever know. Antandrus (talk) 00:39, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Eh what? I popped up merely to point you to this sensible proposal; can you really be gone? I hope it's merely a vacation. Come back rested and refreshed. -- Hoary (talk) 06:16, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

NowCommons: File:Hogarth-Southwark-Fair-1734.png

File:Hogarth-Southwark-Fair-1734.png is now available on Wikimedia Commons as Commons:File:Hogarth-Southwark-Fair-1734.png. This is a repository of free media that can be used on all Wikimedia wikis. The image will be deleted from Misplaced Pages, but this doesn't mean it can't be used anymore. You can embed an image uploaded to Commons like you would an image uploaded to Misplaced Pages, in this case: ]. Note that this is an automated message to inform you about the move. This bot did not copy the image itself. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 17:52, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Invitation, if you're so inclined...

Hi Geogre.

I'm here to ask if you're interested in participating in a public discussion. I've been talking with some people about deletion processes around here, and we're talking about doing a moderated discussion for the next newsletter. The idea is that, although "inclusionist" and "deletionist" are clearly divisive terms when applied to people, they do represent certain archetypal Misplaced Pages philosophies.

We're thinking that it would be interesting, and perhaps bring out some good points for the community's rumination, if we have people meet in a discussion in order to articulate opposing perspectives on a number of questions. I know that you have written some meta-pages on the subject of deletion, and I wonder if you'd be interested in being a participant in such an event. I seem to have volunteered to be a mergist-minded moderator, and part of that gig involves looking for people who can eloquently express ideas about deleting and keeping articles. I thought of you.

Would you have any interest in participating in something like this? -GTBacchus 20:18, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Wait... you're gone? Oh hell. -GTBacchus 20:19, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

FAR Notice

I have nominated Oroonoko for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 17:41, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Restoration spectacular

Please see Talk:Restoration spectacular#4 years on as an informal FAR. Simply south (talk) 19:58, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Over three months

It's been over three months since you left, you can't allow this shower to drive you off for good. Giano 19:35, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Colley Cibber FAR

I have nominated Colley Cibber for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Mm40 (talk) 03:03, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Jonathan Wild FAR

I have nominated Jonathan Wild for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Parrot of Doom 19:00, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry Comment in '07

I hate to dredge up the past, but I just wanted to make a comment on , where it was stated that is was almost assured that I was using sockpuppets. I just want to set the record straight that I wasn't -- the other user in question approached me while I was a developer and notified me --- that community is -very- hotheaded, but he wasn't a sockpuppet and I asked him repeatedly in private (which is against policy but I didn't want more trouble) to calm down as I did.

No hard feelings, just want to set the record straight.

Antman -- chat 10:10, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

A delectation of a page called Fashcool

Dear Georgre ... in 17:00, 12 June 2009, I put a contribution material on wikipedia called Fashcool but you, as an editor removed it, if you have any dubt that the information is incurrect, please visit the Fashcool Gallery in the folowing link. http://www.facebook.com/fashcool#/pages/Fashcool/8241702429?ref=ts

If the deletation due that I cant write about my work as cartoonist hope you can help me in doing so .

Ramzy taweel —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ramzytaweel (talk • contribs) 08:07, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Articles for deletion nomination of Afflatus

I have nominated Afflatus, an article that you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Afflatus. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time.

Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Claritas (talk) 17:55, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

This nomination is quite incredible. I suggest you withdraw it at once. Giacomo 18:03, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

It's been a long time

It's been a long time since you turned your back on all the insults delivered to you - don't you think it's perhaps time to come back? - no need to forgive or forget (I certainly would not), but perhaps move on and do some writing - someone has to write some decent pages around the place, and I certainly see none from your attackers - so perhaps it's time for you to be the big man. Giacomo 20:37, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Thursday next, 29 July, will be the anniversary of the last time Geogre made a contribution to Misplaced Pages. Both you and your Norse alter-ego are very much missed. I just hope that you'll find the opportunity to let your fans and friends know you're ok, and allow us the possibility that one day you'll return. Best wishes --RexxS (talk) 23:45, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

It was claimed by 173.186.127.134 (talk · contribs) on the talk page of Ormulum that this user had died. Hopefully that's not the case, but if it is that would perhaps explain his absence. Bob talk 18:18, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

No, Geogre hasn't died. I was chatting with him just now, and asked him if he had, and he definitely told me "no". Bishonen | talk 19:17, 17 September 2010 (UTC).

(edit conflict, ... that itself is a chuckle, on this page) He appears to be very much alive, unless a ghost is doing the typing. I for one am happy to see one of my favorite editors returning, if but for a moment, as an anon. Giano, shall we dub this brief visitor the "Ka of Geogre"? Antandrus (talk) 19:21, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Mr Antradus, how dare you mock the dead? I can assure you, young man (I assume you are a man, no woman would ever be so insensitive) that being dead is not a life-style choice! In fact, we are a discriminated against majority: we do not even have the luxury of "Proud to be dead" marches causing mayhem with traffic, such as are enjoyed by other discriminated against groups. Geogre is most certainly not dead, or he would be one of our leading campaigners for equal rights and recognition. Sometimes, I wish he were dead, then I could enjoy some more stimulating company; dearest Noel and warbling Ivor bitching and fighting to be heard over the luncheon table with dear poor Edie and her infernal megaphone is not my idea of heaven! Get a life! Young man and stop insulting the likes of myself! Lady Catherine de Burgh (the Late) (talk) 19:38, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

I too would very much like to see Geogre return to editing. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:08, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

A little late in the day to come here saying that - aweeping and awailing! You should have thought of that before the Arbcom drove him awf - with their stupid ill-conceived and ignorant sanctions playing to a dribbling and equally ignorant gallery or their peanutting supporters. Plus the fact, you have had months - a year to do something about it! Were I on that ridiculous Arbcom, things would be very different, of that you can be assured. Lady Catherine de Burgh (the Late) (talk) 20:53, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Ormulum's FAR

I have nominated Ormulum for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. GamerPro64 (talk) 21:55, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Pity you're not here anymore

This whole section reminds me of you . Didn't you go on strike once years ago - in the happy days before the Arbcom decided they could dispense with your services and drove you off. Never mind, who needs dull boring old serious English literature, when one can read a comic. Giacomo 08:49, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Just my opinion here -- I think Geogre is on strike, and that's exactly why we haven't heard from him. He just hasn't used the word. He kicked the dust off his shoes and left. That part that's desperately sad to me is that very few people seem to have noticed the departure of one of Misplaced Pages's finest-ever content contributors at all; indeed some of the worst non-contributors were likely happy to have him go. I suspect the same thing would happen on a larger, and more tragicomic scale, if content contributors did as you suggest.

There's a story by C.M. Kornbluth called "The Marching Morons" in which a small group of intelligent people do all the work on a future Earth, while serving the billions of imbeciles bred by unnatural selection. These people go on strike, only to discover that they've but made the problems worse; the only thing to do, they learn, is to get rid of all the morons. Antandrus (talk) 13:22, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

I am normally in favour of the wikipedia model, but having just read the review process by which Geogre's work on A Tale of a Tub was demoted from FA status, I have some sympathy with critics of wikipedia and with the impatience of people who don't like to see excellent work being denied due recognition. The rules were enforced in a situation where they clearly need not have been enforced. Nobody wanted to suggest that Geogre didn't have massive command of the sources, but a lot of people wanted to bring him down for being an arrogant so-and-so, which to be fair he is; proof enough that it's one thing to know what you're talking about on wikipedia, but you'd better not annoy people because, unfortunately for the encyclopedia itself, if you want to be a star contributor it's at least as important to be well-liked as it is to know what you're talking about. This, of course, is merely my personal opinion. My opinion of the people who voted to demote the article from FA status for reasons that had nothing to do with its intrinsic quality but everything to do with politics and personal antipathy, and of the process that allowed their opinion to count for anything and not to be disregarded for what it so obviously was, is not fit to be expressed in public.

In the meantime, I am annoyed because I wanted to consult Geogre on a reference I found in an essay by Richard Porson, who inferred the authorship of A Tale of a Tub from a coincidence of numbers in both that book and Gulliver's Travels. But if he's not here, he can't confirm if he knew about it already.Lexo (talk) 23:51, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

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The source is clearly stated as "British Library" within the image. I've added a template including that information to help the bots who can't read image text. It's a pity that WP:BEFORE doesn't seem to apply to images. *Sigh* --RexxS (talk) 16:37, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Better source request for File:Slaveship.JPG

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Restoration literature FAR

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File:Maddog.jpg missing description details

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I don't think that it's a smart idea to place the notice on the page of a contributor who sadly has not edited for over a year. Despite the fact that the file actually had a description, I've added some extra information to try to keep the bot happy. --RexxS (talk) 01:31, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Most likely not. It is probably on the same level as placing notices on the talk page of editors who just happened to revert some vandalism on the image in question but otherwise has no clue as to the origin or circumstances of said image. --Saddhiyama (talk) 01:52, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, and please accept my apologies, as I wrote the snotty comments for the bot, before I realised you'd justifiably moved the bot notification from your page here. I admit I find these sort of bot notifications irksome, particularly as the apparent reason for the notice turned out to be inaccurate anyway. Still, a few minutes of googling found some extra information on the image, so it should keep the bot from causing you further nuisance. Thanks for your reversion of the vandalism anyway! --RexxS (talk) 02:44, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

File copyright problem with File:Hutchenson-witch.jpg

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cool myth

Check out Myrrha. Never even knew of it. What a deliciously wrong thing. And pushed forward by a new and young Wikipedian. Stop on by and edit. TCO (talk) 21:27, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Main Plot

According to you , the name of the plot means "the treason at Maine" . Could you please cite the source for this information? Tks. Yone Fernandes (talk) 18:15, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Categories for discussion nomination of Category:Red list

Category:Red list, which you created, has been nominated for discussion. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. œ 12:42, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Two years is a long time

to be without your contributions. Friday next will be another year gone by and so I guess we ought to report on the last twelve months. It's felt a bit like the Dutch boy trying to plug the holes in the dyke – not yet a disaster, but seems awfully close to one.

Anyway, Ormulum was saved, but at the cost of a vandal changing all the parenthetical references to harvard-style in a fait accompli – the upside was that we found Nikkimaria (talk · contribs), who worked so hard to answer all the carping and verified many sources.

The three image files above survived and had a few extra bits of info added to them to reduce the chances of being deleted. Main Plot had an extra sentence added to cover the possibility that it was so named to fit with the Bye Plot.

That's about it, as far as I'm aware. Ultimately, no measurable progress, but no obvious decay in your work, by and large. I just had a image of Dewey from the end of Silent Running flash through my mind. --RexxS (talk) 00:57, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

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Non-free rationale for File:Red-Man2.png

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⚠

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This file is in the public domain because its copyright has expired in the United States and those countries with a copyright term of no more than the life of the author plus 100 years.

--RexxS (talk) 20:38, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

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Ichthus: January 2012

ICHTHUS

January 2012

In this issue...

Ichthus is the newsletter of Christianity on Misplaced Pages • It is published by WikiProject Christianity
For submissions contact the Newsroom • To unsubscribe add yourself to the list here

Douaihy

Hi George, you once deleted douaihy page. How I can give you consent from our site to let the article written — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.141.62.41 (talk) 02:20, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry but Geogre hasn't edited for over two years, so he may not notice your request. Misplaced Pages articles are only appropriate for subjects that meet our standards for notability, so I'd suggest you read the page Misplaced Pages:Notability. That should give you an idea of what sources need to be found to write an article that won't be deleted. Hope that helps, --RexxS (talk) 15:54, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

File source problem with File:Diagram of a slave ship.jpg

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Fixed. Obvious public domain image. University of Virginia had source info. Antandrus (talk) 04:37, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

And fixed some more. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:48, 26 May 2014 (UTC).

WP:Anglican navbox colour discussion

Hullo, fellow WikiProject-er. We're having a discussion about the colours of Anglicanism navboxes. Please do come along and weigh in. D B D 18:19, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Just to let you know

You have been mentioned at Misplaced Pages:Missing Wikipedians. XOttawahitech (talk) 14:27, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Notification of automated file description generation

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Possibly unfree File:Millenium Hall.jpg

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How on earth could this possibly be unfree? The photographer uploaded it, gave it a public domain license, and has since left the project. The subject of the photograph is itself a public domain book. Antandrus (talk) 17:59, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

It couldn't possibly be unfree, but it was one of many files nominated for deletion today by Stefan2. It is clear that he has mixed up the concept of a photograph of a 3D work of art such as a statue, with a photograph of 3D object such as a book or a painting, where the artwork is 2D and inegible to generate a fresh copyright. This is hardly surprising considering the rate he is working - he nominated this file in the same minute as his previous nomination and could not possibly be doing due diligence in checking his nominations. This isn't the first time this has happened and I'm now sorely tempted to take this issue to WP:AN and ask for a topic ban on his nominating files for deletion. What do you think, Antandrus? --RexxS (talk) 20:50, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

This is a photograph of a 3D object (a book), not a photograph of a 2D object (a page of a book). If the 3D parts of the picture are removed, then the picture can be kept, otherwise it has to be deleted. Also, Antandrus, you claimed that the picture was uploaded by the photographer and that the photographer gave it a public domain licence, but I can't see any evidence for your claim. It doesn't say who the photographer is, and no licence was provided. The copyright tag which the uploader provided states that the author died more than 100 years ago and that the file therefore is in the public domain in countries with a copyright term of 100 years or less, and that the file also is in the public domain in the United States for an unstated reason. However, the copyright tag is not a licence since it doesn't contain any permission from a copyright holder but only provides information about limitations in copyright law. --Stefan2 (talk) 21:49, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

The work of art is 2D, just as it is when we take a photograph of a portrait. Are you going to go around nominating all the images we have of portraits because they are 3D objects? You'll be suggesting next that the thickness of the paint on the painting makes it 3D. --RexxS (talk) 00:27, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

The work of art is 2D, but this is not just a photograph of a 2D work of art. It is a photograph of a 3D object (a book on a table) which happens to contain a 2D artwork. Since the picture includes 3D stuff, it's non-free. --Stefan2 (talk) 10:33, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

The solid realisation of any 2D art is bound to exist as part of a 3D object, but that in itself does not invalidate Bridgeman v Corel as we all know. In this case, the table and the paper are such an insignificant part of the final image that de minimis non curat lex is bound to apply. If you don't understand that, then please consult: Webbink, Mark; Johnny, Omar; Miller, Marc (2010). "Copyright in Open Source Software - Understanding the Boundaries". International Free and Open Source Software Law Review. 2. doi:10.5033/ifosslr.v2i1.30. We are trying on this project to support and expand free content; we don't need your uninformed rhetoric whose only effect is to needlessly impede or block the progress of open knowledge. --RexxS (talk) 18:30, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Precious

sonnets of knowledge with passion

Thank you for quality articles on literature and religion such as Restoration literature, Oroonoko ("Wrote it. Fought over it. Rewrote it from scratch") and Parody, for the insight of your essay User:Geogre/Editwar "anyone who thinks that they can win a struggle against the voices of oppression on Misplaced Pages is misdirecting his or her energies grossly, if not criminally", for your user page as a piece of inspiring literature including critical commentary, for "The idea is not to be competing, but rather looking for elements of trust." - missed - repeating from 12 July 2007 ("I'm sick of words: they are so lightly spoken"): you are an awesome Wikipedian!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:00, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Awesome
Ten years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:36, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

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It's worth noting that a higher resolution version of the file is available at https://www.britannica.com/biography/John-Arbuthnot so presumably Britannica finds the image useful. In any case, if the image is required here in future, it can always be sourced from the Britannica article as any image of a portrait by an 18th century artist is clearly in the public domain under US law. --RexxS (talk) 02:36, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Couldn't we simply use it in the person's article? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:08, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: We could, but I don't think it would improve the article; it would be merely decorative. It was actually in use as the lead image from 2006 to 2008 when it was changed for the present colour image by this edit. As that has remained in place for eleven years, I think that there's a consensus that the present image is superior to this one which is being considered for deletion. In other words, there's no information that I can see in this image that the one in the article doesn't already convey in a more pleasing fashion. --RexxS (talk) 13:06, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

I didn't think of using it instead of the lead image, but in addition, showing him at a different angle, and age as it seems. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:09, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

It was the idea of adding it that I meant would be "merely decorative". Nevertheless, it might work if you think it brings something extra to the article. The original caption for that image was "John Arbuthnot by Sir Godfrey Kneller shows him at the height of his literary output." So you could use that perhaps further down the article. If you do add the image, then decline the prod as "now in use". Cheers --RexxS (talk) 14:05, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

done --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:51, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

note

interesting page. thanks for posting your essays here!! --Sm8900 (talk) 23:13, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Alcuin Club

The article Alcuin Club has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Without sources for nine years. I don't see real indication of notability here. BEFORE completed in Google Books and News (I have no access to British newspapers). Deprod if you can cite significant coverage, but be sure to actually cite it, or it'll go to AfD.

While all constructive contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 22:54, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi Diamond -- Geogre has been gone for a while. I removed the prod, as this is a significant organization. Needs some references to bring it to 2020 standards, as in 2005 we usually did not include footnotes, only a general links/sources/references section at the end. (Any watchers on this page still?) Antandrus (talk) 23:19, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

I know of a couple.

--RexxS (talk) 00:00, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

... count me in --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:12, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Featured article review for Restoration Spectacular

I have nominated Restoration Spectacular for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. -- Beland (talk) 00:47, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Featured Article Review for The Country Wife

I have nominated The Country Wife for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. -- Beland (talk) 20:04, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Nomination of Pruning poem for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Pruning poem is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Pruning poem until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

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Elli (talk | contribs) 08:03, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

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