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| ::In categorization, ethnicity is mentioned first and then nationality. Serbian-American, in which Serbian would be his ethnicity/origin and American being his nationality/place of residency for the majority of Tesla's life. Croatian was not his ethnicity, or nationality as you mentioned it to be, as Croatian was part of Austria-Hungary at that time. Mentioning Austria-Hungary as his nationality could be fitting, but when an individual has more than one nationality it is important to look at other factors. For this case, Tesla lived in the US for the majority of his life and was his place of death. It was also the place of origin to all his inventions. I think it's quite logical why "American" is mentioned as his nationality, hence also why most sources mention him as Serbian-American. ] (]). 20:16, 10 September 2023 (UTC) | ::In categorization, ethnicity is mentioned first and then nationality. Serbian-American, in which Serbian would be his ethnicity/origin and American being his nationality/place of residency for the majority of Tesla's life. Croatian was not his ethnicity, or nationality as you mentioned it to be, as Croatian was part of Austria-Hungary at that time. Mentioning Austria-Hungary as his nationality could be fitting, but when an individual has more than one nationality it is important to look at other factors. For this case, Tesla lived in the US for the majority of his life and was his place of death. It was also the place of origin to all his inventions. I think it's quite logical why "American" is mentioned as his nationality, hence also why most sources mention him as Serbian-American. ] (]). 20:16, 10 September 2023 (UTC) | ||
| :::Citizenship in 19th century Austrian Empire was complex topic even back in those days. The legislation and the practice have changed multiple times during the 2nd part of the 19th century. There are numerous cases of disputes with the institutions that individuals had to determine their citizenship . What worked in the practice is affiliation to the local municipality. After 1880 a new law put in order the presumption of "Hungarian-Croatian" citizenship of all born in the lands of "hungarian crown". There are ambiguities on how that citizenship was called, but the affiliation certainly went towards "Croatia-Slavonia", as the local governemt was issuing documents such as "domovnica" or "certificate of nationality" and passport. It can be seen on Tesla's passport that it was issued by the "Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia-Dalmatia". For Tesla at least, it can be seen who had issued his passport and where his affiliation went. As I said Misplaced Pages summerizes sources and indeed there are sources naming Tesla as Croatian scientist. This is factually correct and in no opposition to name him as American, or Serbian-American or even Croatian-American as some here on Misplaced Pages are trying to represent. Why one of those classifications was chosen of Misplaced Pages , I explained earlier. I think that most literature that are listing Tesla as "Croatian" scientist are doing so because Nikola Tesla was born in the Croatian part of the Austrian Empire, which was pretty diverse, so they "summerize". Well, I say Croatia because it's a direct quote from Tesla. Of course we wasn't born in the "Republic of Croatia" which is the full name today. However, Croatian constitution today is stating that today's Croatia derives from the former Kingdom of Dalmatia-Croatia-Slavonia. It's one and the same entity, whether independent or not is irrelevant. The naming had changed throught years. The most common name is just Croatia. That's way Tesla had himself said "I was born in Croatia" , although at that time Croatia was a part of Yugoslavia. ] (]) 19:28, 12 September 2023 (UTC) | :::Citizenship in 19th century Austrian Empire was complex topic even back in those days. The legislation and the practice have changed multiple times during the 2nd part of the 19th century. There are numerous cases of disputes with the institutions that individuals had to determine their citizenship . What worked in the practice is affiliation to the local municipality. After 1880 a new law put in order the presumption of "Hungarian-Croatian" citizenship of all born in the lands of "hungarian crown". There are ambiguities on how that citizenship was called, but the affiliation certainly went towards "Croatia-Slavonia", as the local governemt was issuing documents such as "domovnica" or "certificate of nationality" and passport. It can be seen on Tesla's passport that it was issued by the "Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia-Dalmatia". For Tesla at least, it can be seen who had issued his passport and where his affiliation went. As I said Misplaced Pages summerizes sources and indeed there are sources naming Tesla as Croatian scientist. This is factually correct and in no opposition to name him as American, or Serbian-American or even Croatian-American as some here on Misplaced Pages are trying to represent. Why one of those classifications was chosen of Misplaced Pages , I explained earlier. I think that most literature that are listing Tesla as "Croatian" scientist are doing so because Nikola Tesla was born in the Croatian part of the Austrian Empire, which was pretty diverse, so they "summerize". Well, I say Croatia because it's a direct quote from Tesla. Of course we wasn't born in the "Republic of Croatia" which is the full name today. However, Croatian constitution today is stating that today's Croatia derives from the former Kingdom of Dalmatia-Croatia-Slavonia. It's one and the same entity, whether independent or not is irrelevant. The naming had changed throught years. The most common name is just Croatia. That's way Tesla had himself said "I was born in Croatia" , although at that time Croatia was a part of Yugoslavia. ] (]) 19:28, 12 September 2023 (UTC) | ||
| ::::This matter has been an ongoing topic for years and I think it's quite clear it's going nowhere. Arguments about Croatia's political independence ''in details'' does not make any difference. Croatia was never an independent nation during his lifetime and can therefore not be classified as his nationality. Nationality is chosen by the individual's legal citizenship. He held Austro-Hungarian and American citizenship, respectively. As for Tesla's wording, he never explicitly said "I was born in Croatia", but he did mention his Serb origin and Croat homeland in a quote during the time of Yugoslavia. However, I don't see how that his him stating his opinion on the matter. Him choosing to move to the US at a young age, and live there until his death, seems rather convincing on which country he considered his nationality. ] (]). 19:40, 15 September 2023 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 19:40, 15 September 2023
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Serbo-Croatian language?
In the article, it's written Tesla spoke Serbo-Croatian. It seems Serbians are trying to add them to anything possible. From his school grades, we can see he studied and spoke the Croatian language http://www.croatianhistory.net/gif/science/tesla/zeugnis1873_1885ocjene.jpg "Kroatische Sprache" means "Croatian language"
Can you put proof he spoke Serbian and knew the Cyrillic alphabet? If not change known languages from Serbo-Croatian to the Croatian language. If yes, add 2 languages Croatian language and Serbian language.
- On Misplaced Pages we are not allowed to base content on our own conclusions; such as concluding from a copy of Tesla's grades what language he spoke; that is called WP:SYNTHESIS. Also Misplaced Pages content cannot be based on WP:primary sources like the grade report. The sentence on what languages Tesla spoke, like all information in the article, reports what WP:reliable sources say, in this case Tesla biographies. See the little numbers at the end of sentences? Clicking on them will take you to citations giving where the information comes from. --Chetvorno 15:46, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
- Here is more proof the language he spoke was Croatian. Latin alphabet and jekavian dialect: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Telegram_Tesla_Macek_0108.JPG https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Telegram_Nikola_Tesla_Mestrovic_01081.JPG
- Again, Misplaced Pages is not the place to discuss your WP:original research on Tesla. Perhaps you would like to write your opinions in a document on Wikibooks? It has no prohibition on original research. --Chetvorno 18:37, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
- This can be cited then http://www.croatia.org/crown/articles/10649/1/Nikola-Tesla-distinguished-Croatian-American-inventor-and-his-high-school-education-in-Croatia.html Croatian translation of the matriculation exam of Nikola Tesla kept in the Karlovac Gymnasium in Croatia, containing the names of the members of the exam committee. The first column at the bottom contains the names of the subjects at the exam, while the second column has the corresponding marks obtained. In the third line of the table at the bottom, Nikola Tesla's Materinji jezik (i.e., Mother tongue) is indicated as hrvatski (i.e., as Croatian language). The fourth column of the second last table indicated without any doubt Hrvatska (i.e., Croatia) as his DOMOVINA (i.e., as his homeland). His birthday is indicated as the 2nd November 1856, which is a mistake: the correct date of his birth is 10th July 1856.
- I'm sorry, that's not even close. A clearly WP:POV Croation nationalist website is not a WP:reliable source, we don't accept WP:primary documents like the claimed exam as sources, and if we did inferring Tesla's languages from them would be WP:synthesis --Chetvorno 02:00, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- So you're saying the documents provided there are falsificated? I don't see how it is a nationalist website.
- If you read multiple discussions above, no amount of sources would be enough. For instance I have provided primary sources where Tesla has himself said that he was born in Croatia and this user among others gave me the same treatment, that we can't use primary source. After I provided secondary sources, of course they still weren't convinced. 89.201.185.102 (talk) 23:34, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- Serbo-Croatian was practically a non-existent linguistic term around the time of Tesla's birth. As the documents show, Tesla indeed spoke Croatian language as he was born and lived in Croatia. 89.201.185.102 (talk) 23:29, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- Please explain why would the article written by a researcher where he uses documents as evidence which proofs that he spoke the Croatian language and identified himself as Croatian be chauvinistic? I will post again
134.195.196.6 (talk) 13:14, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
- The point is quite the opposite. There's no secondary source that is speaking of "Serbo-Croatian" language in around the time Tesla was born. As, I said, it's a non-existent term for that time period and should be removed from the article. The same went for "Serbian-Orthodox" which was removed from the article and replaced with "Eastern-Orthodox". 5.43.160.12 (talk) 00:26, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
- The current "reliable source" that Tesla spoke (non-existent) Serbo-Croatian is a book by journalist John J. O'Neil. I don't see from where did the author get his sources. This should be investigated more. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ayyven (talk • contribs) 11:04, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- Nationalist nonsense. It matters not that the term did not exist yet per your view, linguists massively/overwhelmingly state that Serbo-Croatian is the common spoken language of Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia and Montenegro. The various standardized languages are political constructs. You speak the same language. 50.111.55.190 (talk) 18:31, 6 October 2022 (UTC). OakleyHeys
- It matters per Misplaced Pages guidelines. Tesla spoke Croatian language, and the later linguistic construct can't be introduced into this article. There's a separate article about Serbo-Croatian language. This article is about Tesla, and mixing contexts is what we call synthesis. Relevant sources, both primary and secondary state that Tesla spoke Croatian language, and so it should be stated in the article. There was a special RfC concerning Tesla's religion and for the same reasons it was changed from Serbian Orthodox to Eastern Orthodox. Because the term Serbian Orthodox is non existent for 19th century Austrian Empire. Bilseric (talk) 13:56, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
- Nationalist nonsense. It matters not that the term did not exist yet per your view, linguists massively/overwhelmingly state that Serbo-Croatian is the common spoken language of Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia and Montenegro. The various standardized languages are political constructs. You speak the same language. 50.111.55.190 (talk) 18:31, 6 October 2022 (UTC). OakleyHeys
- The current "reliable source" that Tesla spoke (non-existent) Serbo-Croatian is a book by journalist John J. O'Neil. I don't see from where did the author get his sources. This should be investigated more. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ayyven (talk • contribs) 11:04, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 17 November 2022
 | This edit request to Nikola Tesla has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Hi. Tesla wasn't Serbian-American. That statement is wrong. He was Serbian-Croatian as his father was Serbian and his mother was Croatian, and he himself was born in Smiljani which is present-day Croatia. This is very important, please change this as soon as possible. Boaaob (talk) 21:48, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
Not done: Please see frequent discussions in the past. Did you see the big pink notice at the top of this page? Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 22:27, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
Thread moved here from Talk:Nikola Tesla per Talk page banner and 16 June 2015 RfC consensus.--Chetvorno 19:00, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 20 October 2022
| This edit request to Nikola Tesla has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change "Serbian" or "American" to "Croatian" 2A05:4F44:C10:3D00:803D:8D49:5AF4:3ACB (talk) 13:02, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
- Not done: Please see frequent discussions in the past. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:14, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
Thread moved here from Talk:Nikola Tesla per Talk page banner and 16 June 2015 RfC consensus.--Chetvorno 19:06, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
Really unsure why this is such a problem.
Tesla is Croatian-American. He was not born in Serbia, or anything that would be considered Serbia. He did not speak Serbian, his official documents state he is from Croatia. He has identified hiimself as Croatian-American.
It's ridiculous that this is an ongoing issue. 151.111.138.53 (talk) 21:19, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- I can explain. Wiki page lists Tesla as "Serbian-American" because the most secondary sources put emphasis on Tesla's ethnicity. Misplaced Pages is just summarizing secondary sources. This in no way negates that Tesla is also "Croatian-American" when you put emphasis on nationality/place of birth. You can see it on Einstein's Wiki page where the emphasis wasn't put on his ethnicity. He's listed as "German-born". The problem isn't with one or the other qualification, but with some people here on talk page, which use one qualification to negate the other. I don't think you should be bothered by this summary that was done on Misplaced Pages. Tesla's Croatian origins are still well known. You know...some people here even went so far to write that Tesla had "no connections to Croatia" or to claim that Tesla didn't know where he was born when he stated that he was "born in Croatia". When someone says that Tesla was "Serbian-American" , thus not "Croatian-American" is just trying to use ethnicity-based qualification for their agenda. Both are correct and one can't negate the other. Of course that in Serbian people would put more emphasis of ethnicity, and in Croatia to Tesla's place of birth/homeland. I personally don't see why both qualifications wouldn't be stated on the wiki page, as both are supported by sources. The best example is wiki for Rade Šerbedžija. He's listed as Croatian and Serbian actor. Bilseric (talk) 20:10, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
- In categorization, ethnicity is mentioned first and then nationality. Serbian-American, in which Serbian would be his ethnicity/origin and American being his nationality/place of residency for the majority of Tesla's life. Croatian was not his ethnicity, or nationality as you mentioned it to be, as Croatian was part of Austria-Hungary at that time. Mentioning Austria-Hungary as his nationality could be fitting, but when an individual has more than one nationality it is important to look at other factors. For this case, Tesla lived in the US for the majority of his life and was his place of death. It was also the place of origin to all his inventions. I think it's quite logical why "American" is mentioned as his nationality, hence also why most sources mention him as Serbian-American. --Azor (talk). 20:16, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
- Citizenship in 19th century Austrian Empire was complex topic even back in those days. The legislation and the practice have changed multiple times during the 2nd part of the 19th century. There are numerous cases of disputes with the institutions that individuals had to determine their citizenship . What worked in the practice is affiliation to the local municipality. After 1880 a new law put in order the presumption of "Hungarian-Croatian" citizenship of all born in the lands of "hungarian crown". There are ambiguities on how that citizenship was called, but the affiliation certainly went towards "Croatia-Slavonia", as the local governemt was issuing documents such as "domovnica" or "certificate of nationality" and passport. It can be seen on Tesla's passport that it was issued by the "Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia-Dalmatia". For Tesla at least, it can be seen who had issued his passport and where his affiliation went. As I said Misplaced Pages summerizes sources and indeed there are sources naming Tesla as Croatian scientist. This is factually correct and in no opposition to name him as American, or Serbian-American or even Croatian-American as some here on Misplaced Pages are trying to represent. Why one of those classifications was chosen of Misplaced Pages , I explained earlier. I think that most literature that are listing Tesla as "Croatian" scientist are doing so because Nikola Tesla was born in the Croatian part of the Austrian Empire, which was pretty diverse, so they "summerize". Well, I say Croatia because it's a direct quote from Tesla. Of course we wasn't born in the "Republic of Croatia" which is the full name today. However, Croatian constitution today is stating that today's Croatia derives from the former Kingdom of Dalmatia-Croatia-Slavonia. It's one and the same entity, whether independent or not is irrelevant. The naming had changed throught years. The most common name is just Croatia. That's way Tesla had himself said "I was born in Croatia" , although at that time Croatia was a part of Yugoslavia. Bilseric (talk) 19:28, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
- This matter has been an ongoing topic for years and I think it's quite clear it's going nowhere. Arguments about Croatia's political independence in details does not make any difference. Croatia was never an independent nation during his lifetime and can therefore not be classified as his nationality. Nationality is chosen by the individual's legal citizenship. He held Austro-Hungarian and American citizenship, respectively. As for Tesla's wording, he never explicitly said "I was born in Croatia", but he did mention his Serb origin and Croat homeland in a quote during the time of Yugoslavia. However, I don't see how that his him stating his opinion on the matter. Him choosing to move to the US at a young age, and live there until his death, seems rather convincing on which country he considered his nationality. --Azor (talk). 19:40, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
- Citizenship in 19th century Austrian Empire was complex topic even back in those days. The legislation and the practice have changed multiple times during the 2nd part of the 19th century. There are numerous cases of disputes with the institutions that individuals had to determine their citizenship . What worked in the practice is affiliation to the local municipality. After 1880 a new law put in order the presumption of "Hungarian-Croatian" citizenship of all born in the lands of "hungarian crown". There are ambiguities on how that citizenship was called, but the affiliation certainly went towards "Croatia-Slavonia", as the local governemt was issuing documents such as "domovnica" or "certificate of nationality" and passport. It can be seen on Tesla's passport that it was issued by the "Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia-Dalmatia". For Tesla at least, it can be seen who had issued his passport and where his affiliation went. As I said Misplaced Pages summerizes sources and indeed there are sources naming Tesla as Croatian scientist. This is factually correct and in no opposition to name him as American, or Serbian-American or even Croatian-American as some here on Misplaced Pages are trying to represent. Why one of those classifications was chosen of Misplaced Pages , I explained earlier. I think that most literature that are listing Tesla as "Croatian" scientist are doing so because Nikola Tesla was born in the Croatian part of the Austrian Empire, which was pretty diverse, so they "summerize". Well, I say Croatia because it's a direct quote from Tesla. Of course we wasn't born in the "Republic of Croatia" which is the full name today. However, Croatian constitution today is stating that today's Croatia derives from the former Kingdom of Dalmatia-Croatia-Slavonia. It's one and the same entity, whether independent or not is irrelevant. The naming had changed throught years. The most common name is just Croatia. That's way Tesla had himself said "I was born in Croatia" , although at that time Croatia was a part of Yugoslavia. Bilseric (talk) 19:28, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
- In categorization, ethnicity is mentioned first and then nationality. Serbian-American, in which Serbian would be his ethnicity/origin and American being his nationality/place of residency for the majority of Tesla's life. Croatian was not his ethnicity, or nationality as you mentioned it to be, as Croatian was part of Austria-Hungary at that time. Mentioning Austria-Hungary as his nationality could be fitting, but when an individual has more than one nationality it is important to look at other factors. For this case, Tesla lived in the US for the majority of his life and was his place of death. It was also the place of origin to all his inventions. I think it's quite logical why "American" is mentioned as his nationality, hence also why most sources mention him as Serbian-American. --Azor (talk). 20:16, 10 September 2023 (UTC)