Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 07:17, 3 September 2008

Welcome!

Hello, NonZionist, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

• The five pillars of Misplaced Pages
• Tutorial
• How to edit a page
• How to write a great article
• Manual of Style

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}} before the question. Again, welcome!

Greetings, hope you enjoy wikipedia. HG | Talk 15:06, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Your user page statement

We're a collaborative project, people with many different views get to edit here -- as long as they can do so in a civil manner.

An interesting thing happened with your user page (see its "history"). You posted a statement. It got deleted, then restored, and then deleted again. The volunteer editors involved are disagreeing about whether it is appropriate for you to post your statement. One editor is citing a policy, which you can read at: WP:SOAP. You can also look at WP:USER for info on user pages.

I can't say how this disagreement over your statement will play out. You may be allowed to restore this statement, maybe not. If you want to pursue it further, you might try contact User talk:HalfShadow who deleted it, or contact my Talk, if you think I may be helpful. I'd encourage you not to get too hung up over the statement, but simply notice it as a curious byproduct of how Misplaced Pages functions. Best wishes, HG | Talk 15:07, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks very much for the welcome, HG, and thanks for the information about my user page. My participation here is very tentative and exploratory, so I'm bemused, not annoyed. There are so many criteria an article needs to satisfy that I am amazed anything EVER gets posted!

"Reliable sources", to me, means "Establishment". The problem with this is that the Establishment is often wrong. If we lived in the Middle Ages, our "reliable sources" would be telling us that the Earth is flat. Those of us who know the Earth is round would then have to find a way to work around the obstacle, defending the spirit of truth while working within the letter of the law. I see that is not an easy task.

My user page is an attempt to jump a step ahead -- to proclaim, in a controlled and relatively private setting, that the emperor indeed has no clothes. I expect a certain amount of opposition. I'm not seeking a big splash or a huge controversy, but I have to make at least a few little waves -- otherwise, I'm not doing my job. Truth is arrived at through an adversarial process. Anyway, I can assure you that my intentions are constructive and cooperative. NonZionist (talk) 18:32, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. fyi You are welcome to utilize reliable sources that mention or substantiate anti-Establishment views. However, it is true that, for better or worse, Misplaced Pages is not about WP:TRUTH but rather verification of its articles through the mainstream secondary literature. Take care, HG | Talk 18:41, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I don't think you'll have a problem with your revised user page. Glad to see you've been reading up on our policies, etc. By the way, you can delete your signature if you want, your user page is one place (along w/articles) that it's not needed! Take care, HG | Talk 03:02, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Request for Review

{{helpme}}I'm wondering whether I am ready to add to an article. The text I would like to insert is here. How does it look? What should I do next? -- NonZionist (talk) 00:05, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

• Looks fine to me. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • 00:10, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! The deed is done! Woohoo!

When to use the <references/> tag_tag">

{{helpme}}I've been using the <ref> tag in citations in my talk page comments. To get the citation to appear, I'm then forced to put a <references/> at the end of my comment. But that dumps references for the entire page! I doubt that this endears me to other wikipedians. What is the correct way to get citations to appear in talk pages?

Don't use the ref tag just use brackets and it will show up like this

Misplaced Pages-related dialogue

If you have strong disagreements with my general editorial orientation, please express your concerns here.

Misplaced Pages is based on consensus and NPOV. Consensus is achieved in one of two ways: Either we silence the opposition, or we dialogue with the opposition. I prefer the latter approach.

We all have POV's. NPOV, to the extent that it is achievable, is a BALANCE of conflicting POV's. It is achieved by adding POV's not by subtracting them.

With this in mind, I open my talk page to those who are willing to participate in a constructive civil work-related dialogue. If we put down stereotypes and come to know the editorial concerns of the other, then we will be better able to collaborate on this project.

Hi NonZionist. I got your message. I'm a bit busy editing in the JIDF talk area. Was there something specific you wanted to discuss or try to work upon? I'm very new here. It seems you are as well, but I'm impressed with your ability to have picked it all up so quickly it seems. Just curious (and I'm not sure this is the right place either) but do you not believe Israel should exist? Should Jews not be in that area? In my mind, that's what "Zionism" means. Anyway, despite the fact that we are supposed to "assume good faith" I find your name a bit offensive to a lot of my core values and beliefs. I don't say this to offend you, but Zionism to me just means homeland for my people. Therefore a "non-Zionist" would mean that they do not believe that Jews should have a home. --Einsteindonut (talk) 03:58, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

First, thanks for your friendly tone, Einsteindonut. My impression of you here is far better than my impression at JIDF!

You are actually the inspiration for my outreach here. After User:Oboler accused me of being a sock-puppet, I viewed your user page -- since you are one of the main antagonists at JIDF! I was shocked by your comments. My own user page was removed without explanation for comments that were not hostile, merely polemical. That is one of my grievances: You are allowed to say anything, but if we attempt to respond, the bogus "Anti-Semitic" label is used to silence us. Do you not see how that censorship CREATES hostility, and may lead some to actually BECOME anti-Semitic?!

I assume most people non-Jews (and even quite a few Jews) are anti-Semitic. I don't understand which comments shocked you? And about your user page being removed? --Einsteindonut (talk) 07:17, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Now I will gladly answer your questions.

• I am anti-fascist, not anti-Jewish! I believe that Jews and non-Jews alike should be FREE to live ANYWHERE. The entire WORLD is our homeland! It seems like the height of folly to confine ourselves to one tiny piece of territory that already belongs to other people. (I am not Jewish, but I can empathize: Hence the "we".)

• The right to exist belongs to PEOPLE, not to fascist regimes. Zionists claim just the opposite: They grant their regime an eternal "Right to Exist", while denying that right to mere human beings. Elevating the state above the human being and making an idol out of the state is statism, something I strongly reject. States need to be judged according to their BEHAVIOR. Dysfunctional murderous regimes need to be abolished.

Not sure what you are considering a "fascist regime" here but it seems you are referring to all Zionists as "Fascists." I also disagree with your statement about zionists denying the rights to others to exist. You also seem to be implying here that the "zionist regime" needs to be abolished? --Einsteindonut (talk) 07:17, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

• Zionism, to me, means fascism -- ethnic supremacy, devotion to war, scapegoating other ethnic groups. "NonZionist" means "non-fascist": It means that I reject an ideology that is being forced down our throats here in America. I stand, instead, for our original American philosophy -- the primacy of the INDIVIDUAL over the state or tribe, with EQUAL rights for ALL, regardless of race, religion, or ethnicity.

Here you explain it. Well, Zionism is not fascism. Nor any of the other things in which you wrongly attribute to it. It's a shame you have such a misconception as to what Zionism actually is, but let me assure you, it is NOT Fascism.--Einsteindonut (talk) 07:17, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps this brief response will help you to see why Zionist efforts encounter so much resistance. It's not your ethnicity that terrifies us: It is your ideology. Similar ethnic-based ideologies have led to war -- to millions of people being killed.

No need to be so scared as I think your entire perception of what Zionism is is way off.--Einsteindonut (talk) 07:17, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Collaboration here at wikipedia is possible, if we are willing to listen to each other's concerns. Your concern, apparently, is ethnicity; my concern is fascism. It ought to be possible to write articles that satisfy both concerns. Best wishes, friend!

I think this is an oversimplification of concerns. My concern is NOT ethnicity. My concerns is that people get their facts straight. Perhaps you should change your name to NonFascist since Zionism does not equal Fascism, contrary to your belief.--Einsteindonut (talk) 07:17, 3 September 2008 (UTC)