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Punctuation of "African American"

At present the article has "African American", "African-American" and "African–American". Could we have consistency? Nurg (talk) 00:31, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

In my quick hunt through the MOS I see no preferred version. There is a rejected style guide, Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (immigrant ethnic groups), that does not address hyphenation other than to say usages "vary". The Hyphenated American article claims that most style guides recommend dropping the hyphen except when the term is used as an adjective, but it cites only one such guide that does not say this so clearly. At a Q&A page the Chicago Manual of Style recommends against the hyphen entirely. At Talk:African American#hyphen there is no agreement. At Misplaced Pages talk:African American there is a comment that the matter is ad-hoc here, but consistent within an article. All in all I would vote for changing them all to "African American" without the hyphen. Wikidemon (talk) 00:51, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 01:42, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I have changed the instance of an en dash to a hyphen. This is not ruling out a further change to a space, but I wanted to at least get rid of the dash. Nurg (talk) 10:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I believe a hyphen is necessary for good grammar. For example, there is a difference in meaning between between "African-American candidate" and "African American-candidate"Gregcaletta (talk) 06:25, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The grammatically correct way of putting it is African American. It is a simple adjective/noun relationship similar to that of the red ball. The ball is red, the American is African. Should the term be used before a noun, a hyphen is necessary (i.e. the African-American man), but if it's just something like, "I saw an African American at church today," there is no need for a dash or hyphen because it is like saying, "I passed a blue house today." I'll see if I have time to go in and fix. ~ Wadester16 (talk) 16:59, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

African American is used as both a noun and an adjective several times in this article with no consistent use of hyphen vs. no hyphen. I'm going to be bold and put a hyphen where used as an adjective and remove the hyphen where used as a noun. Please revert/correct if you don't agree. Jrobinjapan (talk) 02:04, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Is this legit?

For some reason, I don't think a consensus has been reached in redirecting ethnic links concerning Obama's race. This kinda smells pooy . I've already revered once, so I won't again lest some editor runs off to AN/I accusing me of edit warring. Any thoughts? Digital 19:47, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

His father is a Luo, so linking to that ethnicity is more specific and improves the article. Four words later, a link to Kenya (which is where Kenyan redirects to) is provided. The original text (that you reverted to) is more specific and informative to the reader. --guyzero | talk 19:53, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

No worries. If anyone, it's the other editor that will be awarded the "Order of the Boot". Regards SHEFFIELDSTEEL 19:54, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

My interpretation is this: if the person has readily identifiable and well known African roots, such as originating in Kenya (or Zimbabwe, Ethiopia, Liberia, etc.) and the person is Black, nationality (not race) should be the preferred and more accurate method of scrutiny. Simply being Black is so much less specific. I feel that it's preferable to go with the most specific terminology. So if the person originated (ancestrally) from a tribe geographically from the land of Kenya called "Luo," it's by far a more informative way to label the entry in the article. I will update it to that effect if there are no objections. VictorC (talk) 20:04, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Absolutely correct, and that's the way it was before these edits. There's no need for it to be consistent with "white American" on his mother's side. --GoodDamon 20:11, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not as comfortable with the term "Black" as it's referring to Obama Sr. who is already from Africa as it is. I suggest we replace it simply with "Luo," if there aren't any objections. Additionally I get the feeling it clouds the issue, and hints that Obama Sr. is "Black American." For those who consider it pertinent, the context is abundantly sufficient to make matters (of race) obviously clear, (just by reading on through the rest of the article). VictorC (talk) 20:27, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Already done. That's the way it was before that spate of edits, and that's the way it should be. --GoodDamon 20:32, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

According to the official US Census, he is NOT "African-American", but multi-racial. Calling him "African-American" is a decidedly political move, and distorts his heritage . Let's leave politics out of this, and stick to facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 52pickup52 (talk • contribs) 18:28, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Ugh. This is why I'm a deletionist. Digital 20:10, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Though the edit-warring user has been blocked, I will add to the consensus that the wiki-link to Luo is more precise & more informative than the link to Black. - DigitalC (talk) 07:14, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

African American Obama is not an African American. he is not a negro. his background is Kenyan, so it should say Kenyan American, not African American. Kenya is in Africa, because Africa is a continent, but America is not a continent, so for the sake of consistency and logic if one were to persist with using the word African, it would be African-North American. Otherwise Kenyan American us the correct term. I doubt this will get changed though, people in the US just assume that if you're black you're a negro and an African American. You can call a spade anything you want, it is still a spade —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.219.117.97 (talk) 00:47, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Last time I checked, Kenya is in Africa. And by the way, "spade" is nearly as offensive as the N-word. Baseball Bugs 19:23, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

That's an interesting point; is there any precedence for this though (either IRL or on Misplaced Pages)? — pd_THOR | 00:50, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

In my quick hunt through the MOS I see no preferred version. There is a rejected style guide, Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (immigrant ethnic groups), that does not address hyphenation other than to say usages "vary". The Hyphenated American article claims that most style guides recommend dropping the hyphen except when the term is used as an adjective, but it cites only one such guide that does not say this so clearly. At a Q&A page the Chicago Manual of Style recommends against the hyphen entirely. At Talk:African American#hyphen there is no agreement. At Misplaced Pages talk:African American there is a comment that the matter is ad-hoc here, but consistent within an article. All in all I would vote for changing them all to "African American" without the hyphen. Wikidemon (talk) 00:51, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I (and the IP) was referring to the idea of specifying the ancestry of "Kenyan" as opposed to just "African". — pd_THOR | 00:54, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

On the surface your request makes sense, but that catagory only applies to persons born in various countries. African American is justified in this case since Obama was born in the U.S. and not Kenya.--Jojhutton (talk) 00:57, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I've stricken my earlier answer. It was intended for the section on hyphenation. Regarding the racial designation, please see FAQ #2 (expand the FAQ at the top of this page). This issue has been discussed repeatedly, and there is strong long-term consensus for calling Obama African-American as a primary ethnic designation, then describing his background in more detail (as has been done) in the article. It is a combination of his self-identification and the overwhelming weight of reliable sources. Although there is a lot of history, politics, and arbitrariness in the words used to describe race, ethnicity, nationality, ancestry, etc., Misplaced Pages's choice is to follow the most universal reasonable standards rather than to be at the forefront of changing language. Wikidemon (talk) 01:01, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Cf. European-American or Asian-American. --Evb-wiki (talk) 01:06, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe one day we won't even have this discussion. I don't see in the John McCain article where we spend one kb of effort to describe him as Irish American (although I do note something in one of the article's category). I don't care that Obama is anything, I care only about what he may or may not do for this country. But, I'm like standing against a tsunami here, so I just think this discussion is queerly (meant as strange not a gay pejorative) American. Sigh. OrangeMarlin 01:13, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

It was a valid question and perhaps the person asking was just needing a clarification. If a person is born in Kenya, then he is Kenyan-American, but if he is born in the US, then he is an American. African-American is used to clarify race, since using the term black is no longer politically correct.--Jojhutton (talk) 01:29, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

It's a legitimate question for sure, and an important one to boot. Just one that has been asked and answered many times on this page, so it's helpful to point people to the relevant discussion so we don't start from scratch each time. Cheers, Wikidemon (talk) 01:55, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

You mean one of the 39 index archives, that are near impossible to navigate?--Jojhutton (talk) 02:11, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Please see the FAQ question 2. Brothejr (talk) 12:32, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I know that this subject was discussed "ad nauseam" but I can't help noticing that calling Obama an "African American", in spite of his mixed European and African roots, is analogous to applying infamous Nuremberg Laws to people of mixed Jewish and Aryan descent. Somehow it implies that "bad" African blood prevails over his "good" white half.Tsf (talk) 19:20, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

It's what the reliable sources call him, ja? Baseball Bugs 19:23, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

• Black?

Excuse me for asking a simple question, but if his mother was white, how and why would we label him as 'black?'

This is a classic example of a half-truth.

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 15:07, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, this is a classic example of half-wit. Please refer to Q2 of the FAQ section (as suggested by the previous comment that you somehow missed) at the top of this page, or the millions of words on the subject in the archive of this talk page.. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:23, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, this is a classic example of half-wit.

You are not trying to insult me are you ? --Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 18:33, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I was paraphrasing you, for which you should be mildly flattered. Seriously though, what is the point of having FAQs, and archive and search facilities if people don't use them. This issue has been address literally dozens and dozens of times. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:39, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

While this is, of course, another junk thread, it is hilarious to me that there are people who would argue with a straight face that a man with an African father and an American mother would not be "African-American". Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 19:30, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeh, it's a junk thread, in large part because the IP address who posted it did so in order to slip in a racist joke about "spade". Baseball Bugs 19:36, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

African-American, American, or Mullato Mr. Obama was born in the United States, making him an AMERICAN. He does have ancestral ties to Africa, but, it is my opinion that an African-American is an individual born in Africa, whom has become an American Citizen.

To be absolutely truthful, Mr. Obama is of "white" (caucasian) and black decent. Correct mention as to the making of history should not claim "the first African-American (or Black individual)". He is a mixture of Black and White.208.253.77.66 (talk)DMC —Preceding undated comment was added at 19:15, 4 November 2008 (UTC).

Please read the FAQ above. This is a frequent question, and the answers are available there. In a nutshell: Obama refers to himself as an "African-American" and the mainstream media by and large refers to him the same way. Misplaced Pages reflects the consensus of reliable sources on the matter. --GoodDamon 19:19, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

He refers to himself as a school?

To the top of this topic. It doesn't matter what your opinion is, there are a LOT of people that refer to themselves as African-American because hundreds of years ago someone's ancestor may have been from Africa. Now it is use either because "black" is offensive to someone or because the person can qualify themselves as being better than people calling themselves American.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.185.6.18 (talk • contribs)

Note that this is not a discussion forum. Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:13, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

What if Britney Spears called herself African-American? --71.225.111.4 (talk) 20:46, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

What is important is what term the sources use. Anyone proposing a change in the terminology used in the article should provide some sources using the proposed terms. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 20:51, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

It is important to note that Obama is also of Irish descent. I am Irish and live very close to the town where his ancestors are from. Do you suggest that we call him an African-Irish-American and whatever other countries he has descendents from. We must refer to Senator Obama by whatever he would like to be referred to by, thus, we must refer to him as an African-American. Bonzostar (talk) 21:04, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, there is that, and the fact that many other sources call him 'African-American'. Personally I think it would be more accurate to call him 'Kenyan-Irish-American', but who am I to slap terms on people, as I am not a reliable source. It's that simple; the case should be closed.--Pericles of Athens 22:04, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

first african-american

the article says he's the first african-american to be nominated for president, should be changed to first african-american to be elected president of the united states whenever an admin gets around to it.

CNN projects that Sen. Barack Obama has won election as the next president of the United States. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rch2005 (talk • contribs) 04:18, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes we know. We might want to wait until it is verified that the ballot was valid (as it obviously was) before posting. However, if you want an admin to add it in now, go ahead.WikiReverter How am I doing? 04:44, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

He is not the first african american president, he is the first one to win a presidential election, as he hasnt served as president yet. And the source cited doesnt say that he is the first president, rather the first nominee, can somebody change this language? Nableezy (talk) 04:49, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Hence making him the first African-American Presidential-elect of the United States of America. Upon his swearing in on the 20th of January, 2009, he will be the first African-American President of the United States of America and the 44th President of the United States of America. He is also the first African American to win the nomination of a major party. This is simply the fact of the situation. Wording, however, must be done carely as to not incur any mistakes. ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② 04:55, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I have updated his BLP. Technically speaking, as of today he is the presumptive president-elect, not yet the president, nor even the president-elect. Anyone remember the U.S. Constitution and it's requirements that the Electoral College vote in Washinton, D.C. in the first week of December to officially make him the president-elect? Newguy34 (talk) 04:58, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

To satisfy that objection, I would say that while he is only the presumptive president-elect with reference to the electoral college (because in theory the electoral college could vote otherwise), he is the president-elect with reference to the election of the electors, who are usually party operatives and have traditionally voted the same way as the state voted. --Philosopher  05:17, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree. For all intents and purposes, though, I think it is safe to refer to him as the "president-elect". Newguy34 (talk) 05:21, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Isn't he only half black? RealKG1990 (talk) 05:41, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, however, taxonomy standards have us refer to him as African-American rather than being African-American / Anglo-Saxon. I personally find taxonomy to be annoying and another form of division but that's besides the point. Barack Obama's heritage is described as being of African-American descent, therefore he is the first African-American presidential-elect of the USA. ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② 05:49, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Hugo Chavez is of African descent (partially). Certainly there have been others as well of partial African ancestry. Anyways, the answer is that he is not the first such to be elected.

I will have to agree with Evilgohan2 to call Barak Obama only an African American is politically incorrect and does nothing but support the negative affects of the One Drop Rule which has affected most people of African American descent at one level or another. This is the 21st centuary and because Barak has some brown in his complexion people only want to call him black. It needs to end. I'm a very proud American that voted for Barak but I completely disagree with him being called only African American it's misleading and biased.Mcelite (talk) 00:57, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

His Father is from Kenya. His mother is American. Barack Obama is undeniably African-American. This title is not a reflection of his skin color. --Trefalcon (talk) 15:00, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

His mother isn't African American she Caucasian American his father is Kenyan. Therefore his bloodline consists of two different races. So it so freakin simple that it's biased that his African heritage would override his European bloodline. Neither is more important than the other. Like I said this is a classic example of the One Drop Rule at work. Even I will say it was smart for him to campaign as an African American rather than bi-racial which he is.Mcelite (talk) 21:24, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Person of African Descent I don't think this is an appropriate term, since all humans are of African descent. He shoud be called the first African American elected President. Cadwaladr (talk) 07:10, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Your first sentence is silly, it's like saying we're all related because we all descended from Adam and Eve. However, the lead kind of restates itself, so there is some redundancy that could be trimmed. Baseball Bugs 07:15, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't happen to believe in Adam and Eve; I share the opinion of most biologists that humans evolved on the African continent. Cadwaladr (talk) 07:32, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The phrase is awkward and not commonly used (as opposed to African American). I tried a re-word .. cheers, --guyzero | talk 08:07, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Your comparison is silly because Cadwaladr's point is based on reality, while yours is based on fiction.--Svetovid (talk) 10:10, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

African-American Objectively speaking, Obama is of mixed race. I realize that people of mixed race are often / commonly identified as "black" and hence "AA" in the USA. I don't have a problem with the article pointing this out, and quoting some reference showing that Obama self-identifies as AA. The objective statement will still be that he is the first president of mixed race, while any identification of Obama as "AA" will need some qualification and reference. I am sure we can do this. I am not saying he "isn't" AA, I am just calling for a properly referenced statement. I have also been told that, not surprisingly, this has come up before. Well, if ithas, the thnig to do would be to put the best reference that came up into the article. If the point remains completely unreferenced, it will just come up again and again. --dab (𒁳) 08:39, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

This might help you understand why the designation African-American is appropriate for Obama. There is a paragraph on him that has three citations as to why this is so. Plus, it's also a matter of self-identification. Softlavender (talk) 08:51, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

You are implying that I do not understand the issue. I do, and I have looked at the African-American article. But even if I was completely clueles, this wouldn't make go away the fact that the article lacks a proper reference caregorizing Obama as "AA". So you think this is self-evident to anyone at all familiar with US society? The very paragraph you just pointed me to has

In the 1980s, parents of mixed-race children began to organize and lobby for the addition of a more inclusive term of racial designation that would reflect the heritage of their children.

This means that, yes, in the 19th century, and even before 1960, Obama would doubtlessly have been considered black. But this is 2008. Try using google. here is a time.com article that makes clear that Obama's race is a matter of debate, and less than obvious.

• "Black, in our political and social vocabulary, means those descended from West African slaves," wrote Debra Dickerson on the liberal website Salon. -- meaning that it doesn't apply to Obama, who isn't descended from West African slaves, at all
• "If I'm outside your building trying to catch a cab," told Charlie Rose, "they're not saying, 'Oh, there's a mixed race guy.'" -- implying that this would be the correct description, but lingering race prejudice rooted in the "one-drop rule" in the popular mind makes "black" anyone who isn't pale pink.

The official US statistics (as of 2006) has

• Black or African American: 12.4%
• Two or more races: 2.0%

Obama is clearly a member of the 2% multiracial US Americans, and thus not of a member of the 13.4% black US Americans. --dab (𒁳) 08:55, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I have inserted the missing references myself now. As far as I am concerned, this resolves the issue. --dab (𒁳) 09:11, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Excellent; case closed. Softlavender (talk) 09:16, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Can we agree that he is not of "Afrcan-American descent"? This keeps showing up in the article, and is clearly misuse of the term African-American, as none of his parents, grandparents, etc were African-American. I searched through the archives, but I couldn't find this issue mentioned.Austin512 (talk) 13:40, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I wish I'd caught this earlier. This is a perennial topic here, but we must adhere to WP:BLP, which requires us to use only reliable sources. And the reliable sources almost all refer to Barack Obama as "African-American." The exceptions are articles specifically detailing his lineage, some of which are used as reliable sources lower on the page, where we detail his lineage. It's not up to us to calculate this or that percentage of Obama's African and non-African ancestry. To do so is original research, a big no-no. We simply reiterate what the reliable sources say. --GoodDamon 14:25, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

All good points, Good. If the United States Senate considers him African American, that's good enough for me. Softlavender (talk) 15:39, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I understand that USA citizen have a slightly other understanding about "races" than in Europe. The word "race" is not used in my country (about persons), but I have problem to understand how a son of a white women can be "non-white". Misplaced Pages should be universal, and therefore the "race issue" should be omitted. I think that would be the smartest for everybody and a step forward. Jakro64 (talk) 20:41, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Non-White Vs Black

Hiya all,

I don't want to get caught up in any controversy, and I know feelings are running high at the moment, I just thought I might throw my 2 cents in as it were. Recently an editor changed the opening para from "Obama is the first non white American politician to be elected President of the United States" to "Obama is the first black American politician to be elected President of the United States". It's an understandable change, but I just thought there's another side to it. By changing the word to black, the sentence is about Obama. Originally (ie. non white) the sentence is about the history of the presidency. Obama is indeed the first black elected president, but more than that he is also the first non white. Non white covers all other races (Oriental, Indian, Latino etc...), as it makes clear that there were no other non whites in office before Obama. Black only seperates... well, blacks from the history of the presidency. I don't wish to get caught in any racism controversy, and I apologise if any terms I've used are non pc (I appreciate most users on this page might be American whilst I'm from the 51st state, and terminology might be a little different), it just seemed to me that in this instance 'non white' was more descriptive because of the history of the presidency. It does state that Obama is African American in the next line, so it shouldn't cause any confusion. Unless of course there has been another non white president but I didn't believe there was... but I am British! Congratulations on a brilliant article and on the election, regards Psychostevouk (talk) 22:03, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. The old language said both, but non-white should be used to mark the historic nature of his win, and black (african american) should be used to narrow in on his precise background.LedRush (talk) 22:11, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The article subject is Barack Obama, not the history of the U.S. Presidency. I realize that technically he is the first non-white president-elect, but we aren't here to make the point about this fact, we are here to retell the information as the vast amount of reliable sourcing presents it, which is that he is black or African American. Stating that he is non-white before stating that he is black is systemic bias, and to be avoided. It would be the same bias if Obama was female, and we wrote "first non-male to be elected". --guyzero | talk 23:18, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

To be clear, if it is important to make this point in the lead, then rework the para to add it after we've identified that he is black/African American. Our first identification of his race should not be "non-white". --guyzero | talk 23:23, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you think it is biased to say he's the first non-white elected president. Also, the fact that he is the first non-white makes his (that's Obama, btw) accomplishment more special than saying the first black. Because this article is about Obama, and because the fact is true (verifiable, reliable sources, etc), and because this in no way takes away from people's knowledge of him as an african american (or that the fact is stated clearly everywhere in the article), the existing language should remain.LedRush (talk) 23:29, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I changed the order to make "african american" come first, and "non-white" second. If that really was your only objection, though, you should have done it yourself rather than blindly reverting. Hopefully this compromise is good for all.LedRush (talk) 23:33, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Guyzero didn't say it's 'biased', sheesh. Learn the difference between that and 'systemic bias'. "First African American" or "First black" is what is being given notability by mainstream sources. In terms of Ghits in 'News', *"first non white" president* gets 52, and *"First African American" president* gets 10,146. *"First black" president* gets 34,133. We should reflect mainstream reliable sources, rather than making it up. ~ priyanath  23:35, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Not sure I follow any of your arguments above where the substituting "African American" with "non-white" is not systemic bias. The notion you present that he is the first non-white president-elect which somehow makes his accomplishment "more special than saying the first black" is your POV. --guyzero | talk 23:43, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Guyzero did say it was biased...read his edit comments. I don't understand the "making it up" argument, especially seeing as you concede that there is proof of it. I also don't understand the POV argument...we are presenting facts here, people.LedRush (talk) 00:13, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

My two cents on ethnicity Now that I've consolidated all of the current (and recently archived) discussions of race and ethnicity in one place I have a few observations:

• It is probably worth mentioning somewhere in the lead that Obama is the first African American president-elect of the US (or whatever you would call it - see that discussion, and ultimately, the first AA president)
• However, as his administration progresses, his stature will rise in other ways and people will grow less and less aware of his race. Therefore, I think we should downplay it and conceivably take it out of the first or second sentence of the article. His main notability is that he is the 44th POTUS, not that he is the first African-American POTUS. Almost certainly this will be borne out by the weight of coverage in reliable sources. For every article that refers to him as an AA president, there will be many that simply call him the president.
• In the path to presidency, he was also the first AA in many other positions - first major party nominee, first EIC of Harvard Law journal, and as president he will be the first in other ways (first leader of african descent to head a white-majority nation, first African American leader to dine in the Kremlin's tea room, etc). Unless we want this to read like trivia we should limit this to the one or two most important firsts and not fill the article up with an account at how he is the first at everything.
• Likewise, Obama is also mixed race, son of an immigrant, grew up overseas, etc. In each of these respects he is a groundbreaker and first. But also, to avoid this becoming a catalog of racial/ethnic traits, and trivia about each that overshadows the simple fact he is President, we should carefully limit the extent, and consider demoting much of this material to the body of the article or to various child articles.
• Finally, we refer to Obama's race primarily as "African American". That's not negotiable, and it is inconceivable that any consensus would change. See the FAQ and the talk page archives for the reasoning and the indication of consensus.

Why is that non-negotiable? It's INCORRECT. According to official records, he is "multi-racial". Regardless of political rhetoric, he is NOT African-American. Calling oneself so does not make it that way. OFFICIALLY, according to the census, he is multi-racial. Leave personal prejudices outside the article, and make it correct. 52pickup52 (talk) 18:32, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 01:47, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

And after this, somebody added to the lead that he was the first nominee and president-elect from Hawaii. Hmmm. We have 50 states and 44 presidents. That should be cleaned up too. Wikidemon (talk) 03:57, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

My two cents (on ethnicity) is that Obama is the embodiment of the 1963 dream spoken of by his forebear, the martyred Martin Luther King. VictorC (talk) 04:09, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Countering some of the presumed racism that helped keep some of the red states red, there were exit polls showing that some 30 percent of whites who voted for him said that race was a consideration. Baseball Bugs 13:02, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Obama is not an "African American" at all. The term "African American" is used by a community of people in the United States - specifically those who are decendent of African slaves. They use the term "African American" rather than a "specific country American" because since they are decendents of slaves, they do not know exactly what country in Africa they are decendant from. For example, someone from Italy would say they are Italian, someone from Kenya would say they are Kenyan, but a person decendant from slaves would say African American. So, simply put, Obama can call himself "American" or "Kenyan" or "Kenyan American" but not African American. To make this even easier, if a person from Nigeria moves to the United States - that person would not call themselves "African American" - they would call themselves either "Nigerian" or "Nigerian American". Not all people of color in the United States are African American.71.183.194.112 (talk) 02:39, 7 November 2008 (UTC)AR

"was the first non-white to be nominated for President" - WHAT?

Obama's mother is white. He is AS MUCH white as he is black.

"First African American" is the way to say it. Presumably we're not counting Harding, the alleged octaroon. Baseball Bugs 23:54, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Obama was neither the first non-caucasian or the first African American to be nominted for US President. Let's not forgot the third parties, folks. GoodDay (talk) 00:08, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

It says from a major political party. I think it is important to say "non-white" somewhere because it is both factually accurate (and sourceable) and better describes the measure of his accomplishment.LedRush (talk) 00:24, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

What reliable source is calling him "non-white"? Baseball Bugs 02:18, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

First of all the terms Black and White are slang terms, and could be offensive. Second of all, I bet you somwhere in a previous presidents bloodline they have a native american ancestor. -Marcusmax(speak) 02:27, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Warren G. Harding, for example. Baseball Bugs 02:30, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

The statement's completely wrong. I believe Eldridge Cleaver came first in 1968 as a non-white US presidential nominee. VictorC (talk) 04:19, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Update: Clifton DeBerry came before Eldridge, in 1964. He was the first African American candidate for President of any existing party. VictorC (talk) 04:24, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

First black candidate for a MAJOR party, y'all. Baseball Bugs 05:09, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

There's no such thing as black or white skin. It's brown or beige. GoodDay (talk) 14:52, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah right. Have you seen people living in Africa or people living in Greenland. Those people are black and white.162.99.227.208 (talk) 18:05, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Common usage is otherwise. Baseball Bugs 18:22, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Is this when I'm supposed to update the George Washington article to describe him as the first white President of British and German descent? Flatterworld (talk) 02:05, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Obama's nationality

He is of African American decent/ he is half white, if we are going to do this page correct that needs to stop being changed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.145.100 (talk) 05:37, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

The sources call him African American, and that's what counts in the summary. The details of his mixed-race background are well-covered in the article. Baseball Bugs 05:39, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

69.134.20.90 (talk) 13:34, 7 November 2008 (UTC) the man is not black or white he is mulatto.. look it up in wiki.. anybody with less than 75 percent of one race is considered mulatto so he should be listed as such or change the other articles in wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/Mulatto .... if you just count his skin color that wouldnt be fair to the people who raised him which made him the man he is today and why would anybody want to take away his heritage ..he never know his black father until he was older and that was only a short visit he got his background from indonesia where he attended school til he was 13 and from his totally white grandmother after he returned to hawaii.. african american is not accurate

Reliable sources are what matter, not wikipedians' definitions of what they think is "true". The sources say African American, so that's what it is. Baseball Bugs 17:58, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

69.134.20.90 (talk) 18:25, 7 November 2008 (UTC) so being accurate is less important than displeasing the few who are trying to make a big deal out of it..he has alot of kin folks in kansas that don t like being left out because he was born darker than they were..i dont see the point in neglecting his whole family that raised him just to make a historic thing out of something ...at least be accurate and state that he is bi-racial if the other names not good enough he isnt the first african american president ..he is the first bi-racial president ...it still makes history so everyone should be happy unless they just want to make a african american thing out of it

African-American? Why is Barack Obama described as African-American in this article and practically everywhere else when he actually is biracial? 209.247.22.164 (talk) 19:29, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

See FAQ, at top of discussion page. This question has been asked numerious times before. GoodDay (talk) 19:38, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Obama is routinely describled as "African-American" in the article, but is there actually any valid source for this, or a self-identification as such by Barack? His mother, I believe, is white and his father is Kenyan. Wouldn't that make him multi-racial? And thus, the first "Multi-Racial" President, apposed to African-American?

I'm not American, and I fully supported Barack, I just simply don't see the legitimacy in calling him "African-American" when he really isn't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.70.37.78 (talk) 00:46, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

These are all great points! Please change this article following everyone's advice immediately before more people are influenced by this incorrect statment. In a moderate way I would say that you can legitimately call Barak Obama "An american of african descent" because his father was, as stated in the article, from Kenya. However, he himself is bi-racial. This IS an encyclopedia, and if you will make reference to his heritage, it should be stated clearly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.128.87.3 (talk) 08:52, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

if we can call obama afican american why not mariah carey WHO IS THE SAME MIXED RACE AS HE IS HER DAD IS BLACK NON AMERICAN its really really really racist agianst bi-racial people can wikipedia stop feeding the false info to already ignorant people, people actually read wikipedia for infor belive it or not and THIS IS WHY SO MANY PEOPLE CALL HIM BLACK cause people are idiots its adds to there ignorance if you don't change it people will still keep saying it cause its written ON WIKIPEDIA it makes other mixed people belivie they don't have a group to add them selfs to its already like this on myspace/facebook AND SO MANY PLACES AND ITS WRONG, it making his own mother and grandmother/grandfather who spent most of their life looking after him and watching him grow up not count as anything, his grandmother sadly died a couple of days before he was elected and at least in her respect note her and that side of his family who actually made him who he is today not his dad who wasn't there. Its not like this makes him anyless better you can't say whos gonna run amercia just cause of there skin or its simpler to yours they have to be good at there job (sarah plain springs to mind)and he is, so he doesn't need to use his colour to gain votes most that voted for him was white or of white descent.Veggiegirl (talk) 02:05, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

My "race shouldn't matter"-meter is demanding that not only should he be listed as the first African-American president, but as the eleventh Irish-American president. As a fellow biracial American, surely he would understand the general attitude that both sides of the family makes a contribution to a person... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.84.26.82 (talk) 01:15, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Is Obama the first democratically elected national leader of African (i.e. black, please excuse my political incorrectness) descent in the history of western civilization beginning with ancient Greece and Rome? Thank you.--wooddoo ]]

• Seems so. Gaston Monnerville was a heartbeat away from being President of France during his eight year tenure as President of the French Senate (President of Senate becomes interim President according to the Constitution), but that the closest thing I can think of. Hektor (talk) 14:23, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

That claim was made on MSNBC and CNN last night (I say without references). With a reference, that deserves mention in the article.LedRush (talk) 15:07, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

This is very hard to make any definitive statement on. In a lot of countries no-one applies a "one drop and you are it" rule of ancestry (for example the British actor Peter Davison has said in interviews that one of his grandfathers was black, but I've never seen Davison himself considered as anything other than white) and it's hard to check every single elected leader's ancestry. But also what defines "western civilisation"? The modern state of South Africa was a European creation, for a long time often mentioned in the same breath as Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Timrollpickering (talk) 15:55, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

It's hard to cite the absence of something. But in any case, it's easy to see that Nelson Mandela's election was major, and significant. Additionally, though Obama had to overcome many obstacles to his successful candidacy, no one will try to argue that Mandela had an easier time getting elected than Obama. Thirty years as a political prisoner is a big obstacle. I think we might well say that Obama is at least the second African leader of a nuclear power (Mandela preceding him) but again to cite the absence of something (in this case the absence of African presidents) isn't really feasible. Can anyone suggest how to cite that something has never happened? VictorC (talk) 20:57, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

What about Jean-Bertrand Aristide and René Garcia Préval in Haiti, is there a valid reason to consider that they do not meet the definition? And there might be others in other caribbean or central american countries. Hugo cantu (talk) 16:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

There is Michaëlle Jean but she was not elected... ; but if the statement comes back to ancient Rome, I would be extremely surprised if there was no Roman emperor with African ancestry. Hektor (talk) 18:30, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

This article cites him as "arguably the first black leader of any white-majority nation in recorded history." The Christian Science Monitor is a pretty reliable source. Important to add.--Gloriamarie (talk) 18:48, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Michaëlle Jean is proof that such an assertion is not true. -MichiganCharms (talk) 20:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Jean is neither elected nor a leader in any real sense of the word. Also, if reliable, verifiable sources say it, we can include it.LedRush (talk) 20:29, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The article said "arguably the first black leader of any white-majority nation in recorded history." Note the abscence of the term elected. And Jean is a leader of a country, she carries out all the functions of the head of state. I challenge you to provide a second source for your claim. --MichiganCharms (talk) 23:30, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The head of government not the head of state is really the leader in the Westminster system. The Governor General is just a figurehead. Timrollpickering (talk) 23:48, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter, the source has been challenged and it's up to you to provide another. --MichiganCharms (talk) 20:18, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

See Hugo Chavez and there's your answer.XJeanLuc (talk) 03:16, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

The quote is "leader of any white-majortiy." By standard racial profiling, "Latino" or similar categories are presented separatly from "Caucasian". Which means that Venezuala doesn't count as white-majority and Hugo Chavez doesn't qualify for this defintion. This also includes Haiti, etc.211.128.87.3 (talk) 10:06, 7 November 2008 (UTC)nishanoire

Surely it is incorrect to describe him as black, rather than mixed race? If you call him black that negates half of his heritage, his white family. If you call him African-American you could argue that acknowledges his African heritage and his American heritage, but that is not the usual use of the term - it is (in my understanding) a term that relates to black people, and he doesn't have the classic African-American background (eg families who have historically been in the US for many years, usually as a direct result of slavery). If you call him mixed race that acknowledges exactly what he is, half white and half black, without negating either side or giving any one side undue prominence. 86.147.160.133 (talk) 16:02, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

On this same subject: an interesting essay on Barack Obama by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown here 86.147.160.133 (talk) 16:08, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for addressing this as I'm so surprised how inaccurate everyone is being in calling him the first African-American. He is bi-racial, even humorously referring to himself in his first press conference as a "mutt" so he is not simply African-American. As I said below, especially since this is a historical occurrence, it should be recorded accurately according to anthropological science. (nyclovesme) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nyclovesme (talk • contribs) 20:24, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

It's really a shame when a person who's very simply half white & half-black has to CHOOSE to ally themselves with one side or the other, like it's some military battle; in the US you can't just say, "I'm a mixture" or "I'm half white, half black"---actually the result almost always seems to be that "they're black" -- even the Black Community seems to push for this. This will never end until there is more real cross-community contact, intermarriage, etc. It's so sad.....of course there's a lot of Blacks & Whites living nearby each other in some southern states, and in large cities, but definitely keeping to themselves. - I admire what Bob Marley, the Jamaican singer once said: (quote follows from Misplaced Pages)

"Marley suffered racial prejudice as a youth, because of his mixed racial origins and faced questions about his own racial identity throughout his life. He once reflected:

I don't have prejudice against meself. My father was a white and my mother was black. Them call me half-caste or whatever. Me don't dip on nobody's side. Me don't dip on the black man's side nor the white man's side. Me dip on God's side, the one who create me and cause me to come from black and white."

But for a mixed-race person who wants to "get ahead" in the US, you can't talk like that. Marley was of course a Rastafarian, pot-smoker -- he didn't CARE what other people thought about him. Years ago a friend, a light-skinned "Black" doctor told me: in America, if you want to "be somebody", you have to take sides. Obama certainly did, changing from Barry back to Barak, marrying Black, and going for years to that racist black church -- it was a big mistake for him not to distance himself from that church earlier. We don't see this insistence on "taking sides" for someone like Keanu Reeves, it is only when Black and White are involved. This is our country's continuing shame and tragedy.Jakob37 (talk) 04:42, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

If you saw Obama walikng down the street and he was not famous Jakiob3, you would regard hiom as black at first sight. You would not wonder about his genetic makup in that case, why worry about it now ? Cosand (talk) 15:22, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

At the risk of misinterpreting the eccentric writing-style of "Cosand",I ain't worryin' bout nobody's makeup --- and I guess I would think "mixed" if gazing on our next Prez for the first time. Actually, this whole issue of, "Hey, he's not Black, he's mulatto" (is that term politically incorrect now ??) applies not just to Obama, but to millions of "Black Americans". To take it a step further, every single human on this planet is "mixed" -- but we just love to set ourselves up in groups, one against the other. I saw some program on Discovery channel which showed that some woman in Greece shared the same rare genetic marker seen in some guy in an Amerindian tribe ---they must've had some common ancestor (Central Asia?) maybe 50,000 years ago. Now that's interesting to me, not all this very very predictable political yammering.Jakob37 (talk) 16:04, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

OK, this page has a lot of separate sections asking why Obama is listed as "African-American", a perennial question that is answered in the FAQ. I propose we delete all these duplicates for the time being to clear up this talk page, which is beginning to look awfully redundant. Everyone with me? --GoodDamon 19:44, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Certainly. GoodDay (talk) 19:46, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

No, not me. And I'm Everyme 20:22, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

You don't need a proposal, just do it. Generally, it's simplest just to consolidate discussion forks about race or anything else into a single heading. Trolling and forum-type discussions can be deleted if need be, and ones that are completely redundant with another discussion ought to be archived. But a sincere, good faith, reasonable query or proposal from an editor who has not abused the privilege ought to receive a listen and a polite response. One thing that comes with the territory of a heavily edited page is a need for patience, explaining to new arrivals that certain matters have been discussed at length already, and gently guiding them to those discussions. That does not mean we have to humor those who reject the explanation and insist on re-opening issues for the nth time. There's a balance between ownership and reasonable page patrolling. I had created a subpage, Talk:Barack Obama/race, where people can talk about race to their heart's content, but that did not go over well. Wikidemon (talk) 20:57, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Wrong. He proposes removing, not refactoring. The latter is ok, the former is against policy. Period. Everyme 21:07, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, no. It's just fine to delete things from talk pages. It's done all the time. In general, archiving is preferable. But if a discussion is a BLP vio, trolling, disruptive, uses the talk page as a forum, etc., then it's often best to simply delete it. Wikidemon (talk) 21:41, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Another discussion about race

To clarify: I don't mind refactoring, but outright removal is not warranted. The question is after all valid why we go with all of the sources that are not trying to be strictly, factually correct but simply join in on the theme, especially when everyone knows that African American is not strictly correct. A gazillion proverbial flies eating muck still doesn't make it caviar. I believe it's disturbing that we bow to and join the tabloid level news chorus when there is the simple and valid option to formulate such not-quite-correct claims as, well, claims. Consider e.g.: "In spite of his mixed heritage, he is generally being called the "first African American U.S. president." -- What's wrong with that, I ask? Why assert the fact and not simply the claim, especially when it's clear that it's incorrect, and it's also clear why the oversimplification is iterated by all the news sources? Everyme 20:38, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I wonder what would happen, if Obama self-identified himself as caucasian. Would editors continue to suggest we use bi-racial? IMHO, he should be described as bi-racial. But, it's up to him & only him. GoodDay (talk) 20:47, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

(To Everyme)First off, please see the FAQ above. Second, the person himself refers to himself as an African American. He also allows others to call himself African American. We've got literally millions of RS sources that refer to him as African American. It is not up to us to define him any other way then what he defines himself and what the RS define him. It's kind of like you going out and saying your from the green people even though one of your parents were from the blue people. While you could say you are of mixed primary colors, it is what you identify yourself as that matters the most, not what others identify you as. A lot of the problems come from people of mixed races who have been fighting for a long time to get recognized as mixed races. Now they have a president who is of mixed race and are now screaming to get him labeled and primarily identified as mixed race even though Barack Obama identifies as African American. To these people this seems wrong and an injustice to them and everything they have fought for. So now every so often a new person tries to fight the term African American to try and get it replaced or mixed race added in so they can feel good about themselves. Brothejr (talk) 20:52, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, I have looked at the FAQ above but failed to determine inhowfar it legitimises us throwing a vital part of NPOV, namely WP:ASF overboard. Secondly, do we have a source in the article for the claim that he refers to himself as African American? Also, apparently you do not understand what a reliable source is. A source may be highly reliable for one claim, but not at all reliable (as in: tabloid level reliable) for another claim. Even if each and every newspaper in the world called him African American, it would still be incorrect, and we know it, and thus should formulate it as a claim, following our applicable policy, WP:ASF. I do not at all propose replacing the widely used "first African American president". I do propose supplementing it with a simple statement that it is claim, not fact. As I asked about, I ask again: What is wrong with following our policy on such issues and simply writing "In spite of his mixed heritage, he is generally being called the "first African American U.S. president." ? Or, if need be, even more simply: "He is generally being called the "first African American U.S. president." -- which would still be better than violating NPOV by upholding a media narrative via presenting a claim as if it where a fact. Everyme 21:00, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for trying to lecture me on what a WP:RS is. While I appreciate you want to argue this out to the nth degree, but as I stated above it is not up to us (wikipedia/editors) to define him and how he calls himself or add other tags because you feel it is NPOV. Also, while you may think that ever RS that calls him African American are wrong, but each of the highly respected RS's that have continually passed the RS test have called him African American. Finally, before you continue, please take some time and look through the archive and see the hundreds of attempts to discuss this. Brothejr (talk) 21:08, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

You are a delight to discuss with. But you do not understand. Actually, in reality, we are defining him as something which he isn't as of right now. Again, I do not propose "defining" him as anything. I do propose formulating claim as claim, not as fact. The news sources calling him African American are suitable and reliable only as primary sources for the claim that he is being widely referred to as the "first African American U.S. president". Also, I haven't found a single user having brought my valid argument before. I'm the first... Everyme 21:14, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Not true. They are all secondary sources, and they all state as fact that he is African-American. Some of them also delve into the specifics of his ethnicity, which is a good reason for us to delve into those specifics, later in the article. It is NOT up to us to decide that the reliable sources are all wrong. In any event, I'm refactoring the majority of these discussions per your statement. There is no possible way the article will call him anything but "African American" so there's no point in squabbling about it anymore. --GoodDamon 21:30, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Wrong. First, the distinction between primary and secondary source is one of usage, and of appropriate usage at that. Those newspapers and reports can be used as reliable secondary sources for a range of items, but they are not at all authoritative, obviously not even trying to be strictly correct, with regard to the African American narrative theme. They can therefore not be used as reliable secondary sources on that claim, just as primary sources to back the simple assertion that they are referring to Obama as the first African American U.S. president. Please, carefully think it through: You are suggesting that newspapers are authoritative secondary sources on the question whether or not Obama is African American. That is, frankly speaking, ludicrous. Moreover, the claim is not being specifically discussed in any of the media outlets, AFAIK. We should at the very least cite sources that discuss the specific question as to whether or not Obama is African American. They can state as fact anything they want all day long, but they are still not (i) discussing the specific question, and (ii) not authoritative as regards such a question. Everyme 21:41, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Verifiability, not truth. Zero or few reliable sources call him a mulatto or half-white/black. Are you proposing we deviated from what the vast number reliable sources say with the contention that they aren't really considering the question or being accurate? --guyzero | talk 21:58, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, the "few sources" include himself. Everyme 22:02, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

This discussion isn't going anywhere. I suggest we acknowledge longstanding consensus that this article's primary identification of Obama (following RS and other policies) is African American. If you guys want to argue over it a short while longer that's fine but at some point we need to realize that it is not going to result in a change in the article, so this talk page is not the best place for ongoing discussion on matters of race that go well beyond what we could address in a single Misplaced Pages article. Assuming that's clear, it's best to add this to the long list of other discussions above on race. Wikidemon (talk) 21:47, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Longstanding consensus? What with the many differing voices on this talk page? Seems a bit awkward to refer to a longstanding consensus in a section that was started in an effort to remove all the input from people who don't agree... Also, fwiw, Obama just referred to himself as a "mutt" ... Delicious. There goes the argument that he sees himself as only African American. Where's your longstanding consensus now? Oh, out the window? Everyme 22:02, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Yup, longstanding consensus. Obama does identify as AA, and virtually all the reliable sources back that up. I don't see that changing in the near future. Good catch though - you and I just edit-conflicted when I was about to add the new section, below.Wikidemon (talk) 22:04, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Another longstanding consensus was that an African American American of partly African heritage couldn't become president. Everyme 22:07, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

• See also this AN thread. Everyme 22:11, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

(ec) That's rhetorical grandstanding. There was never such an editorial consensus on Misplaced Pages, and even if there had been such a situation would fall under WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. I've already participated in a dozen or more discussions about Obama being AA, avoided perhaps a hundred others, and don't care to fire up again for one at this time - if I joined in each I would have to spend an hour a day discussing race on this one article. So I'm just suggesting that others are welcome but my position has not changed. It is exceedingly unlikely that people would agree to a change here. You would have to change how America talks and thinks about race first, starting with Obama himself, and Misplaced Pages is not really the place where change starts.Wikidemon (talk) 22:15, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

You effectively just said you didn't read the news today, that's all. Everyme 22:17, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

How exactly does Obama joking that he is a "mutt" while discussing dog adoption have any weight in comparison to all of the primary and secondary sources that refer to him at the first black President or first AA president? --guyzero | talk 22:23, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

And yes, I did read the news today - and in my comments above and below say so explicitly.Wikidemon (talk) 22:34, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Race Smace; as Joy Behar would say, "who cares". Let's close. GoodDay (talk) 22:49, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm considering an RfC on the issue to gain wider community input, not just the status quo defenders filibustering valid arguments into oblivion. Everyme 01:13, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

It's silly just to call him African-American, because this is only one of the two main ideas of what constitutes race. The first is self-identification, and this is fine for him to do so. But it doesn't take away from the biological truth of his racial heritage, which is something else. So a simple, effective description could be "Barack Obama is considered to be the first African-American elected president by x percentage of the population. In strict biological terms, he is the first elected president with mixed racial heritage, that being 50% caucasian and 50% african.--y2rusty (talk) 11:18, 10 November 2008 (Melbourne Australia time)

We go by reliable sources, not by our personal opinions about what's "right" or what's "silly" or whatever. The sources say African American, and they also make it perfectly clear he has a mixed-race background. Baseball Bugs 00:49, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I want to add another angle to our understanding of the term 'African American'. Obama's father is from Kenya. His mother is from the US. If one completely disregards whatever racial connotations are attached to the 'official' PC term of the moment in the US, it is still perfectly accurate to describe him as an African American, on the basis of his origins alone.--Trefalcon (talk) 02:00, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

A nice, gentle discussion about race

Perhaps events have interceded. As some may have noticed, in the process of adopting a dog for his daughters, Obama made a comment that "Most shelter dogs are mutts like me". That is being picked up worldwide, and may be a gentle way to allude to his (now) self-described multiracial status if we can work it into the "personal life" section of the article somehow.

For those of you that are not aware of the previous thread here is my concerns. A number of sources identify Obama as bi-racial, hundreds say he has a white mother and black father. I think a more neutral lead would be "Obama is of a bi-racial background and is largely considered the first African American president. He is obviously 50/50 regarding race so my thoughts are picking one is not neutral. Landon1980 (talk) 03:27, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

All of this has been answered already, you all just don't like the answers. Continually asking the same questions, after they've been answered, constitutes trolling. Baseball Bugs 03:30, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

The section is here so others can comment. You did not even give the other editors time to comment. The section is always restarted because of it being removed continually. I have legitimate concerns and they deserve a chance to be addressed. One of our core policies is to conform to NPOV and my suggestion is without a doubt more neutral. Like I said before, it only takes one source to cause something to be written neutral. There are several that describe him as bi-racial. Landon1980 (talk) 03:34, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

One source or a handful of sources do not trump the predominant sources. That's undue weight. And his being bi-racial is already fully covered in the article. You're trolling, which is against the rules. You said you were leaving. Show us some good faith, and do what you said you would do. Baseball Bugs 03:38, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Because it's been commented on again and again for the past 3 months. Did you not bother looking at the numerous sections above that say the exact same damn thing? Grsz 03:39, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

The fact that the issue is raised again and again should say enough. I'm not trying to trump anything. Removing the thread will just cause others to ask the same questions. I just want it to stay here for a few days and give others time to comment. On other articles even if 3 or 4 reliable sources can be cited the article is written in a neutral manner. Why should it be different here? Landon1980 (talk) 03:43, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

And Baseball Bugs, please stop attacking me personally by calling me a troll. I am being civil can you please just try and assume good faith? You have made some uncivil comments as well. Landon1980 (talk) 03:45, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

No, the ability to assume good faith with you was lost when you went on your tirade of attacks and offensive edit summaries. Grsz 03:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, he forfeited good faith already. He might get it back - by keeping his word, and leaving this page. Baseball Bugs 03:47, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Langdon: This has been discussed far past the limits of ad nauseum. You are welcome to try to gain consensus for changes to the article, but when it becomes obvious that your proposal is not going to be adopted, drop the issue. This discussion is now closed. J.delanoy_adds 03:54, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Sure isn't very encyclopedic to call him the first African American president when in fact he is only half African American. He's actually the first bi-racial president, not African American. Doesn't matter what he self indentifies as, the fact he is bi-racial is a well known fact that can be cited with dozens upon dozens of refs. I've heard Obama self identify as being half white and half black several times and I'm positive I can find a reliable source for it. Landon1980 (talk) 06:43, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

FAQ Q2. Timrollpickering (talk) 11:22, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Please suspend your common sense, this is Misplaced Pages. We don't care for accuracy, we care only for endlessly parotted media narratives, no matter how inaccurate they are. IF you continue arguing for common sense and accuracy, you may end up getting indef blocked. Nevermind that we could simply (and accurately!) say that the media are using the term "first African American" instead of declaring it to be fact. Nevermind that we even have a policy in place that recommends exactly that. The majority says so, therefore it is so. Nevermind that my valid point about adhering to WP:ASF has never been responded to by anyone. Everyme 13:30, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Since he identifies himself as a "mutt," should we not use that term, to be accurate? Huh? Seriously. --Evb-wiki (talk) 13:35, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

For wiki-policy wonks, here are some reliable sources. Consensus can change. --Evb-wiki (talk) 13:40, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I am rolling on the floor, laughing out loud. Seriously though, WP:ASF. By all means, use the term and accurately state that he is near-universally called the "first African American". But do not state as fact that he is "the first African American". How people working on an encyclopedic project don't immediately recognise the categorical difference (in fact: ignore it even when told) and continue arguing that the mainstream are reliable sources for the claim that Obama is African American is beyond my grasp. But it tells us quite a lot about the influence of hyperrealism in these strange days. Everyme 13:42, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

A joke at a press conference is that, nothing more. As for the wider issue, at the end of the day a lot of terminology in this area is determined by popular usage and self-identification, not scientific determination. "Irish American" is a term used on numerous articles for people for whom their strongest connection is that their great-great-great-great-great-great-great-etc...-grandparent was Irish but that is the term used for and by such a group to describe and self-identify. I don't see that term being disputed up and down Misplaced Pages and surely "African American" is no different. Timrollpickering (talk) 14:16, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

You completely ignored my valid argumentation above. Was there a reason for that? Everyme 16:10, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I did not ignore the valid points in it. The issue is not about Obama it is about the definition of the term "African American". And that term is used in such a way that those with mixed race ancestry are considered African American. The meaning of a term is how it is used, not some "common sense and accuracy" or "hyperrealism" that is arguing against the tide of use. I note that nobody has any problem with the men listed as the first African Americans to serve in the Senate, become a state governor, run for Veep or dine at the White House, all of whom had some white ancestry. If they were the first African Americans to reach those, then so is Obama the first. Timrollpickering (talk) 21:28, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

ok, I have been looking into this, and the FAQ needs updating. The relevant article section is Multiracial_American#African_Americans. Obama in Dreams from My Father explains how he in his youth struggled with his multiracial heritage, and came to identify as African American. This was before the 1990s. Since the 1990s, and especially in the 2000s, the Multiracial American identity has developed, and is now of course experiencing a boost due to Obama himself. Obama never ceased to self-identify as African American, of course, but he wisely put the question aside during his election campaign. Now he is elected, he is again free to self-describe without fear of damaging his poll, and lo and behold, the first opportunity he gets, he self-describes as mutt in an admirable show of self-deprecating humour. It is perfectly fair to state that Obama is a Multiracial American as well as an African American, especially since the two categories overlap significantly due to the historical US practice of hypodescent. It is also fair to note that a slight majority of Americans classify him as "biracial" rather than "black", 55% of White Americans, 61% of Hispanics and 44% of African Americans, amounting to a total of 54% of US population. I am not saying the "African American" reference needs to be replaced, but it needs to be augmented by a "biracial" reference. Yes, this is important. The "mutts" comment is going to go down in history. --dab (𒁳) 14:36, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Tell me, should we demand a DNA test on all Black public figures, to determine the amount of European blood there is to be found in their inherited Gene pool ? You would find varying levels of European origin, but needless to say, such a query is ridiculous, as is this non issue of Black vs. mixed race Cosand (talk) 15:29, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

What you choose to consider ridiculous is irrelevant to Misplaced Pages. The study you suggest has been carried out, see Race_in_the_United_States#Multiracial_Americans_and_admixture. Yes, it was found that about 20% of African Americans have >25% European admixture, which would mean Obama is one of about 8 million Americans who identify as "African American" but who at the same time can be classified as "biracial". Please avoid shooting down strawmen, both my comment and the articles referenced are perfectly aware that "African American" remains a matter of self-designation, not genetics. --dab (𒁳) 15:55, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, dab, and fully agree. However, in addition to your proposed addition, I still firmly believe that the "first African American" assertion should be carefully formulated to adhere to WP:ASF, for improved factual correctness. Everyme 16:07, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Dear god! I'm actually agreeing with dab on something! I guess America really has changed, lol. Scott Free (talk) 16:11, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

nice :) yes, I fully support the "first African American" bit staying in, it should just be joined by a phrase on "multiracial background" or similar. --dab (𒁳) 16:54, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

He is definitely African American even if he did not identify as such, any claim to the contrary is clearly flawed original research. Thanks, SqueakBox 17:05, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

So a few years from now if someone is elected that is as far as they know 100% African American what will we call them? The second African American, the first actual African American, etc.? Everyone knows he is not the first African American president, he is the first bi-racial president. Calling him anything else is an opinion. So what if reliable sources call him African American, we know for certain that they are picking one term over the other. Calling him white is just as accurate as calling him black. And no, we aren't going to require all African Americans to undergo DNA testing to prove they are African American, this will only be an issue when we know for certain they are only half African American. This is an encyclopedia, this isn't the mainstream media. We should represent the facts. There is nothing wrong with saying the media is calling him the first African American president because that too is a fact, but the term itself should not be presented as fact. The lead could say "with a bi-racial background he is deemed the first African American President..." then go on and explain the issue. Landon1980 (talk) 17:17, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Looking at List of African-American firsts I see a lot of first who had mixed white and black ancestry. Sticking predominantly to the political field, there's Hiram Rhodes Revels, the first Senator who had a white mother and mixed race father. Or P. B. S. Pinchback, the first governor, who had a white father. So did Frederick Douglass, the first Veep candidate. Or Booker T. Washington, the first African American to dine at the White House. (And in his concession speech McCain explicitly cited this as how far things have come - did anyone object on the grounds that Washington "wasn't African American"?) But the talk page (at the time of writing) shows no sign of anyone raising the objections we're getting here. Timrollpickering (talk) 19:16, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

P.S. And Homer Plessy had (famously) only 1/8th black ancestry but that didn't put him on the white side of the "separate but equal" upheld by Plessy v. Ferguson. Timrollpickering (talk) 19:23, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

A few years from now? we are not a crystal ball. Your assertion he is not African American is original research, Americans choose the one drop (of black blood) theory and who are we to dispute this? Nothing of explanations please, he is African American because he has sub-saharan African blood and is a US citizen. There is nothing else to say. Thanks, SqueakBox 17:43, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Well he will be the first African American President, as well as the first Biracial one. Look at the article African American, where it says, "African Americans or Black Americans are citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa. In the United States, the term is generally used for Americans with at least partial Sub-Saharan African ancestry." At least partial! To me that sounds like biracial is allowed. They even use his picture in the topmost illustration on that page. Besides, his father was African and his mother was American, ergo he was African American. We should say he will be the first African American and biracial President. 163.1.146.17 (talk) 17:42, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Squeak box, I assumed everyone would know that "in a few years" wasn't meant to be taken literal. If my assertion he is not African American is OR than yours that he is African American is OR. I can also say he is white because is mother is white. Do you honestly not understand that? Your argument is seriously flawed, substitute African American with white and you will understand how. You calling a man that is half white and half black African American is original research, calling him white is OR as well. Calling him anything other than bi-racial is OR. You only made my argument stronger. Landon1980 (talk) 17:54, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

• Not my assertion, and one drop for instance is an assertion I am not terribly comfortable with, but the assertion of the American people. I came here having edited African American and being interested in race issues I am not an American, but I understand the issues. I don't endorse any of this but my opinion as me doesn't matter, as an editor we must go with what is rather than what we believe in. Thanks, SqueakBox 18:56, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

By the way, Squeakbox, the if in the "a few years from now if" statement should have been a clue to I meant if. I am aware that we are no crystal ball, that is where the if came into play. Landon1980 (talk) 17:59, 9 November 2008 (UTC) The lead as of now presents the statement as factual. Unless the rules have changed we are supposed to write articles from a NPOV. So I suppose using the current logic the lead should read "he is the first African American president and the 44th white president." We could always do something really crazy and off the wall like acknowledge the media is calling him the first African AMerican president while stating the facts at the same time. Landon1980 (talk) 18:07, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Calling Obama "African-American" is not original research because about eleventy-billion reliable sources refer to him as such. When it comes to biographies of living persons, reliable sources are of paramount importance. Additionally, Obama self-identifies as African-American. Now this is a subject that has been discussed on this talk page dozens of times, and the result is always the same - we must say what the reliable sources say. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Well then neither is calling him white. We know for 100% certain that they are picking one term over another. Calling him white is just as accurate as calling him black. The fact he is bi-racial can be sourced as well. We can say what the reliable sources say, we can also present the facts. There are conflicting sources here, everyone knows that he is half white and half black. Picking one term over the other is original research no matter how you spin it. The only neutral term is bi-racial. It is unfair to pick one term over the other. There is nothing wrong with stating what the media says while at the same time reporting the facts. Remember, we can report the facts, opinions about the facts, but not the opinions themselves. This conversation being brought up multiple times is proof enough that the current state of the article is not neutral. You say we must report what reliable sources do and I agree with that. However, The problem is they report him both as African American and as bi-racial. Him being of mixed race has been blasted into every home across the world, everyone knows that. When sources report two different things and both are as correct as the other the only right thing to do is find common ground. The common ground and neutral way of doing this would be bi-racial, the term does not choose sides and it is accurate. Landon1980 (talk) 19:00, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Show me a reliable source that calls Obama "white" and we'll consider that here. Otherwise, this is a pointless discussion that is becoming tendentious. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:09, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Are you denying that he is half white? The sources say he is half white, half black. In the future read my comments before you respond to them. It is not your decision which discussions can or cannot take place here. If sources both call him African American and half white half black AKA b-racial how do you justify picking one term over the other? Calling him black orcalling him white is OR of the worst kind. So much for articles being neutral, policy flies out the window in this case I suppose. The only neutral way of doing this is saying he is bi-racial and stating that the media largely chooses to call him African American. Landon1980 (talk) 19:17, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I am not denying anything. I am simply saying that reliable sources should be our guide, and in the event of a great number of sources (in this case, probably thousands) we use the predominant term. You appear to be advocating that we include terminology not generally supported by the many available reliable sources, which is obviously not acceptable. Also, your claims of "OR of the worst kind" demonstrate a clear misunderstanding of the policy. Please re-read WP:OR to avoid misrepresenting it in the future. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:29, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I am not misrepresenting OR and I am more than familiar with the policy. Why must everything be taken so literal? Regardless of what you say the facts are different. The fact is he is of mixed race, half black half white. Picking one term over the other is unacceptable when the sources report both. The man is half white half black and you cannot dispute that. It is very misleading in it's current state. What exactly would be the problem with saying he is bi-racial and that he is largely considered the first African American president? Can you give me a good reason why neutrality should not apply in this case? Landon1980 (talk) 19:38, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

WP:IDHT to you Squeakbox, I just laid out the case in front of you, including references, and you act as if the material just wasn't here. --dab (𒁳) 18:22, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

dab, the study suffers seriously from systematic-bias because "More than half (55 percent) of whites classified Obama as biracial after being told that Obama's mother is white and his Kenyan father is black.". Even if the respondents already knew his background, the instruction was self-serving. Its unclear if the poll even gave the respondents the option of classifying Obama as being both black and biracial. In any case, if multiple reliable sources explicitly say his biracial heritage is important enough to be saying "first biracial XYZ", then I support its inclusion. However, ...the melting pot of biracialism is somewhat a nonstarter in that in equality we are all mutts. Modocc (talk) 19:07, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

"we are all mutts" too funny! I agree that the term "bi-racial" should replace "first African American president" I think it is very factually incorrect to omit the fact that he is of mixed race 50/50. I find it amazingly interesting that his race mirrors a voting phenomenon in our country where people of all races voted for him. It just seems so blatantly biased to describe him in the lead as African American instead of "bi-racial". He is what he is and not something else. NancyHeise 19:32, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Per NPOV and RS, "first African American" must be kept in the lede. Modocc (talk) 19:42, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

This is laughable, care to explain how picking African American over white, or African American over bi-racial is adhering to NPOV. The man is half black/half white, as such the only possible neutral ground is bi-racial. As for RS, dozens upon dozens of sources say that he is half white and half black. You had to be joking by saying AA must be kept due to NPOV, that same logic would apply to we must keep white because that term is just as correct. Landon1980 (talk) 19:48, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

We can say "first biracial and African American" if a significant fraction of reliable sources do so. Modocc (talk) 19:51, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, a large number of sources say that his father was African and his mother was white. I find it amazing that in an encyclopedia where NPOV is pushed as much as anything that picking one racial term over the other is even being entertained, let alone supported by the majority. Not one person has given me a good reason why neutrality should not apply in this case. If a few years from now someone with both parents being African American is elected what will this person be called? If one drop of African American blood automatically makes you African American I'd be willing to bet that Obama is not the first. Five former presidents have been said to have African in their blood. According to The Virginia Magazine of History Volume 29 Andrew Jackson was the son of a White woman from Ireland who had intermarried with an African American. Landon1980 (talk) 20:17, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I would oppose making any change to the present use of "African American" as the primary identifier in the lead, and also oppose any laundry lists of firsts beyond a few key ones, per what I take to be the weight of the reliable sources. When another African American is elected President, he or she will be the second. However, having participated in dozens of such discussions in the past few weeks I do not care to fire up for another one at this point, particularly one defending the encyclopedia yet again against claims of racial insensitivity, POV violations, etc. Those advocating for a change might do well to read the FAQ and if interested some of the past discussions. Wikidemon (talk) 20:22, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

This is ridiculous, there are conflicting sources. Someone please tell me why neutrality does not apply here. If Barrack Obama is the first African American president he is also the 44th white president. What exactly is the criteria for deciding which half outweighs the other? I am offened by the lead completely ignoring the fact he is bi-racial. Come on people he is half and half, one term is just as correct as the other. Here, for example, CNN describes him as the first bi-racial candidate. I find it hard to believe that on a subject as sensitive as race that it is ok to pick one term and completely ignore the other. Can you imagine what would be said if the lead sentence called him white and completely ignored the fact he is half African American. And yes, it is the exact same thing. Landon1980 (talk) 20:29, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Lecturing people that they are ridiculous is not going to help. I have reviewed this discussion and remain unconvinced. The strong majority of sources, along with Obama himself, consider him African American. It is true that he is biracial (another term that looks subjective under scrutiny). Many things are true, but that does not mean we highlight them all in the top of the lead lead of the article. The subject is adequately treated in the article as a whole and in other related articles. We follow the writing of others in deciding what to emphasize. If you have a problem with that, it seems that you may object to the current conception of race and ethnicity in America, which is a perfectly reasonable point, but a Misplaced Pages article is not suited to taking the lead in changing the language about race in America.Wikidemon (talk) 20:37, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

That's right (left?); it does help reduce the uninitiated naivety though. :-) Modocc (talk) 20:49, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

"it seems that you may object to the current conception of race and ethnicity in America" Could you provide a couple reliable sources that say that is how America thinks as a whole? Answer my question, why does neutrality not apply in this situation? What is the criteria for deciding which half is dominant among people of mixed race? Obama himself identifies as mixed, he even recently self identified as a mutt. The man is half white and half black, that is what he is and you cannot change that. The fact he is bi-racial can be sourced with hundreds of reliable sources. I repeat, what is the criteria for deciding which race to pick in cases such as these. Would you be ok with the lead saying he is white and not mentioning he is half African American. Let's change the lead to "He is the 44th white president..." and see what kind of response we get. One term is just as correct as the other so why not if one is to be decided upon? Landon1980 (talk) 20:50, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Will you also point to where I lectured someone on how ridiculous they are? The idea of picking one term over the other being OK is what is ridiculous. I am attacking the content, not the contributor. Landon1980 (talk) 20:53, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

5 paragraphs up - "that is ridiculous". Neutrality applies and taken into account. The primary criterion is the weight of the sources, checked against self-identification and being not obviously untrue. It seems that a biracial individual of (roughly) 50% African heritage and 50% white European heritage can reasonably be described as African-American. I won't delve here into why such a person is not usually described as white. That's a discussion for another day and another place. Tens of thousands of sourcs are here. You can find them for yourself. Contrast with "biracial" here. - Wikidemon (talk) 21:01, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I still don't see it, all I can find is where I said "this is ridiculous," meaning the idea of one term being picked over another. You still cannot give me a good reason why the lead should not be neutral. Calling him white is no different than calling him black. Why can't we list him as white in the lead sentence and ignore the fact he is half African American? I have yet to see a reliable source that supports ignoring the fact he is half white. The man's mother was white, his father was black. This is sad, and a poor excuse for encyclopedic content. I would be blocked on site if I kept saying he was white in the lead, yet doing the exact opposite is acceptable why? Please give me ONE good reason why the lead cannot be neutral, just one. Multiple editors have had concerns regarding this and every single time they are bullied into giving up. I'm not shutting up until someone explains to me why the lead simply cannot be neutral and must pick a side. According to policy if there are conflicting sources both sides should be given due weight. Multiple sources describe him as bi-racial. The fact he is of mixed race is undisputed. It is sickening that this article is being used to promote racism. I am extremely offended by the double standard here, and I'm certain I'm not the only person that has a problem with it. Landon1980 (talk) 21:45, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay, "ridiculous" was enough. I've already pointed to the sources and wont respond to incitement like "sad", "poor excuse", "bullied", "not shutting up", "double standard", and "promote racism". The article is neutral at this point, and my opposition to adding "biracial" to the lead, which I take to be the long term consensus here, stands. I do not care to discuss this further.Wikidemon (talk) 21:55, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing that prohibits me from saying content in itself is ridiculous. All of those who object to the lead being neutral should avoid the discussion, because of a clear bias in the matter. I still fail to see how picking black over white is neutral. Seriously, how is that neutral? We all know he is half black and half white. One term is just as correct as the other. The only possible neutral ground is bi-racial. Again, if you truly object to the article being written from a NPOV you should avoid editing the article all together including the talk page. Landon1980 (talk) 22:04, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

As repeatedly pointed out the way these terms are used is not the way you are assuming. Race is a far more complicated affair than mere genetics, as some of the assertions in this discussion assume. It is as much about how a group of people both identify themselves and are identified by others, as well as what the historic trend is. There is a very long history of African Americans with white ancestry being at the forefront of African American history - Frederick Douglass, Booker T. Washington and Homer Plessey to name but three. The first two had white fathers but did that stop them from being seen as important black leaders in their day, whilst Plessey's status as black when he had 7/8ths white ancestry was upheld by the Supreme Court of the day. Timrollpickering (talk) 22:30, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Do some editors not understand that most "African Americans" are biracial? If an African moved to the US and became a citizen he would be a one-race "African American." Or multiracial? We follow the subject's self-description and the terminology used by reliable sources. African American is the most common term. Black is commonly used. Multi-racial is accurate. Edison (talk) 21:11, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikidemon, before continuing this conversation please read over WP:NPOV in particular WP:ASF. NPOV is one of our core policies and we must adhere to it. It doesn't matter how many sources support which side, the fact is reliable sources can be found in number for both. Landon1980 (talk) 21:57, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict)By my calculation, about four percent. Four percent of the sources probably should not be given fifty percent weight in the lede. Its undue (unless that improbability thingy gets pushed again, the tea is tossed out with the shoes, oh my aching head). Modocc (talk) 22:29, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm getting tired of repeating myself while fighting for the article to conform to NPOV. Those of you that claim the lead is neutral I'd like to ask you how "the 44th white President" sits with you upon reading it. Yes, it is the exact opposite of the current state. I do believe 50% plus 50% in fact equals 100%. Therefore one term is just as correct as the other. Since either one of them is neutral I suggest we alternate between the two of them. So we can leave it as is for a month, week, or whatever. Then next month we use "44th white president." Landon1980 (talk) 22:20, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Or, here's a radical idea: Go with what the sources say. I've got a hunch that going with what the sources say, vs. going with the personal opinions of wikipedia editors, might actually conform to policy. And keep in mind that our country traditionally embraced the "even one drop" rule, such that any "black blood" rendered someone as a "negro". So 50 percent certainly qualifies. Baseball Bugs 22:26, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Try reading the discussion next time before commenting. A large number of sources also say he is bi-racial. That whole one drop theory is a bunch of bull shit and is original research. Obama being bi-racial is not my opinion. If 50% is enough, then like I said, he is definitely just as white as he is black so we will save that for next month. Talk about opinions, calling him black is an opinion and so is calling him white. We all know that one is as correct as the other, and the fact is he's bi-racial.Landon1980 (talk) 22:34, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh well, so much for NPOV. Looks like if enough people have a biased view then that bias is accepted. Who gives a big flying fuck about the article being neutral. I guess just me, it is sickening and racist to act like black cancels out white. Most of our readers will have enough common sense to know that the lead is incorrect and misleading. I would LOVE to see how all of you would react to "44th white president." All of you keep harping about self-indentification, the ironic part is Obama has said on numerous occasions that he is black and half white and will not disown either. There is a pool of biased editors owning this article and that is sad. Those of you that object to the article being neutral seriously should consider not editing the article. Landon1980 (talk) 22:49, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

The article makes it perfectly clear that he's bi-racial. And the article also makes it clear that he's 50 percent African (specifically Kenyan), and 50 percent parts of English, Irish, and German. So he's more African American than he is anything-else American. And the sources say he's African American. And the public regards him as African American. So as far as wikipedia is concerned, that's what he is. Baseball Bugs 23:24, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

You misunderstand NPOV, it is about presenting the commonly held views. Your aspersions that the American people are sickening racists is not acceptable here. If I saw 44th white president I would revert a simple of vandalism. We all know he is half white and half black and that makes him black and an African American and to contradict that with fringe personal views is not NPOV. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:09, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah well you misunderstand a lot of things. 44TH presidend is not vandalism if the current state is not. Say what you will but that is racist to say calling him white is vandalism when he is half white. Landon1980 (talk) 23:49, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

If nothing else, we can all agree that this issue keeps being raised. Did any of you ever stop to think there may a reason for that? Reason being it isn't neutral? I don't wish to have first African American removed, I realize that is true. However, 44th white president is just as true because he is undeniably as much white as black. A NPOV would be something along the lines of

"He is of a bi-racial background and is largely considered the first African American president." What would be so bad about the lead being neutral? What I suggested is accurate, that is exactly the case. Even though he is only half black he is largely considered African American. Almost all of you are clearly biased regarding this for whatever reason. You all should ask yourself what the real reason you oppose the lead being neutral is. I have looked through the past discussion and a number of editors have raised the same point. Read over WP:NPOV what I suggested is exactly what it suggests we do. Landon1980 (talk) 23:49, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

"As much white as black" is a matter of personal opinion, hence it's original research, unless you can find a reliable source that can say definitively that his skin pigmentation is half the normal amount for a "typical" black person. The reliable sources predominantly call him African American, so to call him that is perfectly in line with neutral point of view; to try to state otherwise in the summary is nothing more than trying to make a point of some kind, which is against the rules. Also, see if you can find a reliable source that calls him the 44th white President. Baseball Bugs 00:10, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Another point: You say "this issue keeps being raised." Raised by a few wikipedia editors maybe... but can you find any reliable sources raising it? Baseball Bugs 00:14, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

LOL as much white as black is not an opinion. The man has a white mother and black father. Simple genetics and mathematics will tell you he is 50/50. Every point you have raised is seriously flawed. All you must do is substitute black with white to see how. This article is in bad need of intervention. It would appear it is owned by a group of Obama supporters which group together to keep out anything that doesn't sit right with them. It's so ironic that you say calling him anything other than African American is OR when it is a well known fact that he is of mixed race. The double standard that has suddenly become ok makes me sick at my stomach. No one can tell me why the lead should not be neutral, or how picking black over white is neutral. You can't deny that the lead I suggested is not neutral and accurate at the same time. Landon1980 (talk) 00:24, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

HAHAHAH So if you don't agree with consensus you are put on article probation. Thanks for the formal notification, I was way too stupid to see that at the top of the page. That did put some fear in me though and I'll go ahead and quit while I'm ahead. Score one for the Obamites and 0 for the NPOV warrior. Landon1980 (talk) 00:35, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

The article fully explains his ethnic background. No information is being hidden. There is no double standard and no violation of point-of-view rules. The rule is that reliable sources must be followed. The reliable sources say African American in their summaries, without some wordy qualification, so that's what it is. Baseball Bugs 00:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm done here anyways, but no, that clearly is not what we do. Several reliable sources describe him as bi-racial, hundreds explain how he is half and half. And yes, according to policy neutral wording would be the lead I suggested. There are clearly way too many biased editors for me to continue, I'm fighting a losing battle. Sadly, on wikipedia there is nothing from keeping biased editors from pooling together and gaming the system. That is exactly what is taking place, you all are gaming the system and you know it. On any other article facts would be reported, opinions about the facts, but not the opinions themselves. Everyone of you know that it is wrong to ignore NPOV, yet you try telling yourself picking and choosing while ignoring significant facts is neutral. Seriously I'm done though, you don't even have to respond. Hopefully some of you will stop letting your personal views get in the way of editing and will step back in the future when you know you are bias. Landon1980 (talk) 00:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Ah, parting personal attacks. The time-honored last resort. Dayewalker (talk) 01:12, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

The sources predominantly say African American, and that's what dictates how to word it, not wikipedia editors' personal opinions. Baseball Bugs 01:04, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Those saying that the one drop theory is rubbish should go to a forum or start a blog. We at wikipedia will not be held to ransom by politically motivated editors. Landon's claim that those opposing his original research are expressing personal views is highly offensive to those of us who are not letting our personal views get in the way. Thanks, SqueakBox 01:13, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

And your sickening racist comments aren't any better. If I said the things you did about half white making you white and calling someone saying black vandalism I'd be blocked for racist comments. By the way, Bugs, WP:NPOV is not my personal opinion as you suggest, it is a core policy. Landon1980 (talk) 01:19, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Look at my user page before acting like a dick and accusing me of rascism. Thanks, SqueakBox 01:38, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

"Reliable sources" is a core policy, and they say African American in their summaries. There is no POV problem here. Baseball Bugs 01:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

The one-drop theory is "rubbish," it's nothing more than your personal opinion. Show me a reliable source that says one drop of AA blood cancels out an indefinite amount of white blood. It is like you don't even read others comments. This needs response from a wider community, consensus cannot be properly formed among a pool of biased editors. Landon1980 (talk) 01:24, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

You need to read about attempts to keep Warren G. Harding from becoming President due to allegedly being an octaroon - in short, due to allegedly being "black". Baseball Bugs 01:27, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm aware of the controversy regarding Harding and his presidency. I think four maybe 5 previous presidents have been said to have ties to the African race. I think Andrew Jackson's father has been said to have been black. I listed a source above that said he was black. There goes the theory of Obama being the first using the current logic applied to the article. Landon1980 (talk) 01:32, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

No reliable source states that anyone besides Obama had any African American ancestry. Baseball Bugs 01:35, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Where does the personal opinion come into play, Bugs? Nothing I have said is my opinion, absolutely nothing. The lead I suggested is far more factual than the current, and is neutral. You act as if Obama being bi-racial is my opinion. Landon1980 (talk) 01:27, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Because you want it to read contrary to what the predominant sources say. Baseball Bugs 01:30, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

You really, really should read over wp NPOV. All I want is it to be neutral, dozens upon dozens of reliable sources say he is bi-racial. What would be wrong with saying he is bi-racial and is largely considered the first African American president? Everything in that lead sentence is verifiable, and can be sourced properly. Landon1980 (talk) 01:35, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

The article already states he's biracial. The summary reports what the dominant sources report in their summaries, i.e. African American. "What would be wrong" is imposing your view contrary to the way the sources word things. P.S. You said you were leaving. What's up? Is the train running late? Baseball Bugs 01:39, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll be gone shortly, does it really matter, does it Doc?

Gr8. Thanks, SqueakBox 01:45, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

No point continuing this. Modocc (talk) 01:45, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Correction: Barack Obama will be the first bi-racial President of the United States, not the first African-American given his mother is White and his father is Black. Since history will have been made, the records should reflect his accurate heritage. (nyclovesme) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nyclovesme (talk • contribs) 20:14, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

• This has been dealt with ad nauseum. Please read the FAQ section. _D.D.J.Jameson 20:28, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Newspapers have called Obama "African-American" and "black." We follow their lead, not the reasoning of Misplaced Pages editors. Edison (talk) 20:33, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

...is annoyingly long. Could we put it in a div like so — User:J.delanoy/1#Notes? Obviously, if we were to go this route, we would have to change some things to get it to format correctly, but before someone asks, it does automatically scroll the div to the correct place if you click on, for example, ref #170, which does not show up when the page initially loads. J.delanoy_adds 00:34, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

MoS forbids it; Misplaced Pages:Citing sources#Scrolling lists. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:47, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh. Now I feel dumb... J.delanoy_adds 20:21, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I think that the 'family' section should note some shocking bloodline connections, which includes prievious American presidents and major celebrities such as Brad Pitt and Madonna. Perhaps this deserves a category of its own. Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions?

Sources:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23797072/

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/860708,genes032508.article

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/wireStory?id=4521690 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neurolanis (talk • contribs) 01:38, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Only if it can be determined that Obama had some say in the matter. Baseball Bugs 02:17, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Non-notable trivia. Everyone is related to everyone at some level. Wikidemon (talk) 02:24, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. I, for example, am distantly related to Roger Rabbit. Baseball Bugs 02:28, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I think shocking is a bit of an overstatement. I would find it shocking if he was related to Hitler, or Jesus, or maybe Jenna Jameson. Considering those relations are like six generations removed, they're not really notable. We're all related, when you get right down to, after all. ~ L'Aquatique! 20:13, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Heh, interesting tidbit it is, but as L'Aquatique says, it's not really notable on an article about Barack Obama. Maybe on an article about Genealogy... --Jaysweet (talk) 20:16, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Or maybe an article about genealogy of the Presidents, which would narrow the scope a bit. Isn't it the case that Obama is related to Bush, for example? And obviously you don't want to go too far back or it becomes silly, unless he has interesting direct ancestors. But relatives within the past 2 centuries could be an interesting subject - on a page of its own. Baseball Bugs 20:27, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, Obama is the TENTH cousin once removed to George Bush...that means that in 1662 their ancestory merges... as for Pitt, it's NINTH cousin... which probably means somebody in the late 1600's. This is pure unadulterated trivia. Hell, I'm probably related to Obama at some level... heck, I know I am, one of my ancestors shares an ancestor of an ancestor of Obama... perhaps, we should add that Balloonman is related to Obama? And oh, BTW, 3 websites citing the same article are not three sources, it's really one.---Balloonman 01:07, 7 November 2008 (UTC)