Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 09:58, 2 December 2005

Statistics

Okay, so I was reading an argument that within the first year homicides went up 3.2%,(& homicides with firearms went up 300%), Australia-wide, assaults went up 8.6%; Australia-wide, armed robberies went up 44% (Victoria only). I'm aware that the robbery number was cherry-picked as the biggest increase, because the Australian number wasn't as distinctive/large.

It's been almost a decade, and I've not seen any re-caps (along with comparisions of the newer pistol laws - before and after)

I also haven't seen any data from before (ie: were the trends going up, staying stable, or going down previous to this legislation), I haven't seen any numbers per capita (are there simply more homicides because there are more people?), or data from economic strata (are more people becoming poor?)

I know that in the U.S. the crime trends were already headed down, and advocates tend to claim those decreases for gun control. What's the status here?

-- ~ender 2005-02-26 08:04:MST

I think you have it backwards. The biggest change to gun laws in the U.S. recently is that many states have allowed the right to carry a concealed weapon. This has been accompanied by a decrease in the crime rate, and it's gun-rights activists, not gun-control ones, that seem more likely to cite crime-rate figures lately. Funnyhat 05:53, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

"moral panic" stuff - not specific to Austraila

Removed:

The attitudes towards law-abiding firearm owners and the opponents of the 1996 gun laws by the politicians of Australia, the media, the anti-gun movement and the community in aftermath of the Port Arthur massacre and the rapid introduction of the 1996 gun laws were an example of moral panic on a large scale with many people using law-abiding firearm owners and those who opposed the 1996 gun laws (both gun owning and non-gun owning) as scapegoats for what happened at Port Arthur. Also, the rapid introduction of the 1996 gun laws highlights serious flaws in Australian democracy with the parliament rapidly passing these laws without proper, rational debate and scrutiny of these laws as well as threatening politicians who are members of political parties that back the bans but hold pro-gun sentiments and objected to the bans with removal from the party if they didn't support the political party's line and stance on the gun laws.

To claim this is specific to Australian democracy is just nonsense; politicians *always* respond to public outcries on a specific issue, and the response is often ill-considered legislation that advances other agendas that couldn't get passed in more normal times. Hence the PATRIOT Act in the United States, to pick one very well known example. Or witness the belting the left of the Democratic Party was given by the hawkish centrist wing on their opposition to the Iraq War in 2003, despite being proven completely right by history. --Robert Merkel 06:49, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Also removed: "The incident left a strong impression among those who opposed the 1996 gun laws that John Howard dislikes all forms of legal gun ownership among law-abiding Australian citizens as well as him using the aftermath of the Port Arthur massacre for his own personal political gain (since he was elected Prime Minister of Australia in March 1996 which raises questions on his motivations) by using law-abiding firearm owners as scapegoats and potraying them as threats to the community by wearing the bullet-proof vest to the rally."

Howard was elected before the Port Arthur massacre. Aside from that, the section was very poorly constructed, and quite obviously constructed from a pro-gun perspective; nobody can pretend to know what John Howard considers a threat to the community. That is an inference that shouldn't be made here. Also, the personal political gain Howard got out of the aftermath is irrelevant to the gun control debate.

Olympics

The last sentence is not a sentence. Perhaps someone who can divine its intent can complete it. --Russell E 19:02, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

More pro-gun bias

This: "This has in fact become a hot issue in recent times as some people are becoming more sympathetic to private gun owners and the burdensome restrictions placed on them, forcing the political climate to focus more on the criminals using the weapons and less on the weapons themselves."

Is not 'fact', but someone's opinion regarding gun control (as much of this article seems to be). Using adjectives such as 'burdensome', and assuming to know that more Australians are sympathetic to pro-gun groups than opposed to said groups has no place in an encyclopaedic website.

Furthermore, categorical statements like "forcing the political climate to focus more on the criminals using the weapons and less on the weapons themselves." also have no place in an encyclopaedic website, as this is more conjecture and opinion on the political climate of gun control in Australia.

Anti-gun bias

While the edits of User:202.173.128.90 have removed a lot of out-of-place and POV stuff, I think the article has now gone the other way. For example, "the Australian community" did not push for those specific gun laws, a segment of the community did while another segment (not just the "pro-gun lobby") opposed it. If I remember correctly it was very controversial and, for example, is attributed with destroying National Party support and bolstering One Nation in Queensland. Which brings me to my second point, which is instead of being a tit-for-tat tightrope attempt at NPOV portrayal of the history of gun control, the article should actually provide proper background information on gun politics in general in Australia and the various players in that political game. Until someone can address this and in particular address the anti-gun POV now present in the article I think we need a POV warning, so I'm sticking one there now. --Russell E 12:59, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Attribute opinions please

Dear anonymous gun rights advocate:

Please read the Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view policy. The view that the reaction to the Port Arthur massacre was a moral panic is an opinion, not a fact, one that is obviously held by some people but not all. Please attribute these views appropriately, preferably with evidence to back it up. --Robert Merkel 01:13, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Reply

What happened after the Port Arthur massacre was in fact an example of moral panic and scapegoating on a large scale. My advice to you is to read all the Australian newspapers that were printed from when the news about the Port Arthur massacre was reported to the gun debate that occured afterwards.

After reading the newspapaers, have a read of the Moral Panic page here on Misplaced Pages as well as look at the Misplaced Pages page on the Columbine High School massacre and you will see that the aftermath of the Port Arthur massacre (as well as the aftermaths of other mass-shootings) was an exercise in moral panic and scapegoating on a large scale.

My advice to you is that just because you think it was a moral panic doesn't mean that opinion is universal, or even a majority one. Many prominent Australians consider the introduction of those gun laws as a rational response to events. I am Australian and my family *are* farmers and occasional hunters, so I *do* happen to remember quite a lot about that particular debate. I personally think that there's a fair element of truth to your moral panic hypothesis, but that is irrelevant. It shouldn't be hard to find somebody in an editorial in a shooter's magazine (or even in the mainstream papers) who called the reaction a moral panic. Quote them instead of asserting your opinion as fact. As you haven't done so, I'm going to have to revert you again.--Robert Merkel 03:22, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Robert Merkel,

There are many Australians out there who see that the actions of the politicians, the media, and the anti-gun movement in the aftermath of the Port Arthur massacre was an act of moral panic, mass-hysteria, and scapegoating and many of these people are not gun owners. Also, the whole moral panic hypothesis is NOT irrelvent because what happened after Port Arthur and Monash University was an example of it and nearly a million law-abiding Australian citizens were treated like crap.

Besides, what I haved added on the "Gun Politics of Australia" page posting IS fact - it is the stuff that people like yourself tend to overlook or ignore because it dosen't doesn't fit your anti-gun views. There is a need to show another side of the debate as well as the need to show facts and information on the political and social environment in the immediate aftermath of the Port Arthur massacre and the Monash University shootings that have been ignored by people like yourself because there was a large segment of the Australian community that was vilified and ostracised by the politicians, the media, the anti-gun movement and sections of the Australian communinity back in 1996 and 2002 all because they objected to a law that was bad and had no impact on making Australia safer or no impact in reducing the chances of another mass-shooting.

Would you listen to me for a second? I never said that the moral panic hypothesis is irrelevant or that it doesn't belong on the page. I said we can't state it as fact, because it's clearly not. I think it would indeed improve the article if it was included in the right way. What I'm suggesting to you is that to include it, you need to establish that some significant group of people believe this to be the case and get the Misplaced Pages to report who they are and why they think that. It shouldn't be hard; heck, blogger Tim Lambert, a guy who devotes a significant fraction of his life to debunking the dubious research of John Lott, thinks the buyback was a waste of money. Do you have access to a research library so you can dig up relevant articles in various media outlets?--Robert Merkel 04:57, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Major edit

I have submitted a major edit of this article. Most the the old material is retained in the History and Firearms and crime in Australia sections. I have added a bit more historical background, and a whole major section on the major players in gun politics in Australia. I have put some proper references in, though more are needed. I have tried to change all POV material to be attributed opinions rather than stating it as fact. Most of the pro-firearm stuff I have placed under the "Firearms advocacy groups" subsection, where it belongs. Similarly POV anti-firearm stuff should go in the "Gun control groups" subsection with clear attribution.

I believe the article is now NPOV though the "Gun control groups" section could do with padding out ... I can't bring myself to find out what crap they're spouting to put it in there myself ;). So I think the NPOV warning could be taken out, though seeing I'm the one who put it up there it may be a bit presumptuous of me to take it out on the strength of my own major edit.

To the person who keeps adding pro-firearm POV stuff, please desist, you only make pro-gun look petty and invite a revert war. I am strongly opposed to most of Australia's gun control myself so don't take this the wrong way. By all means make our case but anything that is unproven or unprovable is opinion and needs to be presented as such.

--Russell E 05:03, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

This is reasonably fair, though you're right, it does need somebody to look into the gun control campaigners in a bit more detail. I'm happy to remove the neutrality flag from the main article (I'll do so tomorrow if nobody objects). Good work.--Robert Merkel 22:08, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

I object, someone is still being very selective with their facts.

Please explain. Or better still, do something about it (assuming you understand the difference between fact and attributed opinion, if you're the same person who was making the earlier rather POV edits without opinion attribution). -- Russell E 04:25, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

No, I didn't make any earlier edits. Here are my problems. First line: "Australia has a long history of legitimate firearms use" sets the tone for the article. Poor gun owners are being victimised by their gun hating government.

The whole section "Firearms and crime in Australia" is biased. The statistics can be easily manipulated. see http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp The section "Gun control groups" sends the message that their are a few unbalanced individuals representing the pro-gun lobby. And while half the references are government sources, the other half are from shooting associations. 130.102.0.177 11:00, 30 September 2005 (UTC) Tom 30/9/05

I agree that the portrayal of the gun control groups is not particularly flattering, but I suspect that there's at least a little accuracy to it. At the moment, most Australians seem to be quite happy with the gun laws the way they are, and there's little agitation for them to be further tightened; there's almost certainly more dissatisfied shooters who want the laws loosened a bit than people who are actively seeking more restrictions. However, back in 1997, there was certainly a very strong community desire for tighter laws, going much more widely than a few people with a bee in their bonnet.

That said, the article would probably be improved if somebody looked further into gun control groups in Australia, and also if somebody with some involvement with them had a look.

At the moment, your suggestions are a little bit difficult to respond to, though. Could you make some more specific suggestions for changes to the article? --Robert Merkel 14:30, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I will continue to look into gun use in Australia, and will make specific suggestions when I feel confident that they are perfectly representative of the situation. 130.102.0.177 02:03, 2 October 2005 (UTC) Tom

Tom, how are you going? It's been almost 3 weeks now, do you still plan on making some changes and/or do you still object to the article in its present form? Otherwise, we should remove the NPOV tag. --Russell E 01:30, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Regarding the sentence "Australia has a long history of legitimate firearms use": this is 100% true and provides important context for the discussion.

The statistics bit is retained from earlier versions and I agree could be expanded, but the fact remains that AIC statistics strongly suggest the futility of gun control as a means of reducing firearms crime. Considering the difficulties with selective statistics, perhaps the section should be removed and if relevant, points moved to the sections on the gun control lobby and the anti-gun control lobby. By the way, the web page you quote refers to an attempt to claim that crime rates went UP after the new restrictions, which is untrue. This claim is certainly not made in the present article.

The "Gun control groups" section sends the message that their are a few individuals representing the pro-gun lobby, because this is a factually accurate portrayal of the situation. You may check the reference to the radio interview where Samantha Lee acknowledges that she is the sole member of the NCGC. Unless you have any evidence to the contrary, this fact remains unchallenged and should remain. The claim that she is "unbalanced" is not made, where did you get that from? Criticism of her work is present in the article but only as the attributed opinion of Jeanette Baker. The article itself makes no value judgements, which is as it should be.

The references from shooting association sources are used because they are the only people, apart from Samantha Lee, who are attempting to do research into gun control in Australia. Those articles have figures from the AIC and ABS as their primary sources but do a lot of collation and further analysis that would be cumbersome to reproduce in an encyclopedia article. Full references are given so the reader is free to judge the validity of those sources and trace the trail back to the AIC and ABS should see fit. --Russell E 03:56, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Stylistic point

Using the phrase "licensed, law-abiding" like a mantra is clearly an attempt to inject POV into the article; I have removed some of the repetetious uses.

Secondly, my anonymous friend, what's wrong with describing people who own guns as "shooters". What else are people going to do with their guns (except a few who might collect historic weapons which are never fired)?

Oh, and have you considered getting an account, under a pseudonym? It doesn't make your real identity any easier to find, and it's easier to discuss things when we have *something* to call you. --Robert Merkel 23:54, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

I second all of the above. --Russell E 04:51, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Erroneous use of the term 'pro-gun'.

Just an FYI, this is not America. There is no such thing as a pro-gun lobby, even if this poor nomenclature is illustrated by the media. Pro-gun lobbyists are NOT neccesarily firearms owners, primary producers or sporting shooters in the sense of the word. Anyone who believes that firearms are an integral tool in the ability to facilitate freedom (ie: the constitution of the US) are pro-gun.

In Australia, the 'pro-gun' aspect are actually sporting shooters or primary producers exclusively and I'm sure, as a primary producer and sporting shooter that I can safely say we'd all prefer to be refered to in our correct contexts. Some of us HAVE to use firearms, plain and simple, to survive and run our properties.

Likewise, I am sure that sporting shooters who win us medals at international events aren't 'pro gun' in the American gun nut sense of the word, yet this word has a very overbearing and obviously NPOV implication. It is thereby my suggestion that we refrain from such name calling, lest the term 'pinko lefty tree hugging pot smoking hippies' be utilised to those who are anti-gun to even out the POV. :P And yes, that last bit was tongue in cheek, before I get flamed hard, but just a smart arse way of illustrating that stereotypes are 'teh suck' so to speak.  ;) Jachin 08:58, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. It is a bit like calling a chef "pro-knife". Russell E 01:34, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

More opinion presented as fact

I have removed the following text:

Further criticism stems from the fact that 100% of firearms in Australia are imported from foreign markets, with the compensated confiscation involving the destruction of over a hundred million dollars worth of firearms it was therefore comparable to incinerating an equal amount of cash from the economy, whilst inflating foreign economies and even further causing a financial vacuum in consumerism by the need to purchase replacement firearms matching the new legislation.

Hobbyists and sportsmen alike lambasted the new legislation and compensated confiscation of firearms as the government offered a cash incentive to firearms users to hand in their firearms licence and give up the sport, severely negatively impacting on shooting as a sports as well as silencing the protests over the already overbearing firearms legislation by removing the social numerics of shooters.

This all looks like opinion to me. If it is an opinion that is widely held and/or has been made known in the public arena, I'd say it should go in the "Firearms advocacy groups" section, presented clearly as being someone's opinion and preferably with references. It probably needs to be shortened a bit, too, perhaps to one short sentence for each of the two paragraphs above. (I know they are already one setence per paragraph but they're very long ones!) While we're at it, the estimates the SSAA did on how (in)effective the longarms buyback was should be mentioned. -- Russell E 01:46, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Compliments to editors to date!

I have only recently started viewing this page, but I find it a fairly solid contribution. The efforts of editors to correct overzealous non-npov work are well targeted and improve the work. My sense of it at present is that it is unusually npov for this topic; I have written some and find it extremely challenging to avoid loaded language. See for example my article http://www.c-l-a-s-s.net/ScienceServes.htm .

I will withhold a couple of edits until I get a better sense of the house guidelines. At this time I would add some points: 1) Historically we have 'always' had strict controls on handguns: in fact they were introduced around 1920 without debate, out of fear of bolshevism.

2) State differences in the law were very important. Only the laws of 1996 brought a sense of national interest and federal involvement. Variations were such that in WA many guns were effectively banned that in Queensland and Tasmania were available without restriction. Unitl 1991, in Tasmania it was possible to own fully-automatic weapons, yet despite many unlicenced guns being acquired in all states from Queensland and Tasmania there is still no instance of a fully automatic weapon being used in a murder.

Harmonisation between the states has significantly reduced the sourcing of uncontrolled firearms. --ChrisPer 01:42 October 2005 (UTC)

Welcome. I note that you are using the term "npov" - I presume you are familiar with WP:NPOV, the policy it refers to. One of the most relevant points here is the section of "writing for the enemy". Even though the majority of editors here seem to be opposed to gun control, that is no excuse for not making our best efforts to present the views of people who endorse gun control as fairly as possible.

As to your specific points, your comment on handgun control relating to Bolshevism back in the 1920's is fascinating. Do you have a source?

You also make a good point on the importance of uniformity, but where do you get your evidence for the claim that no automatic weapon was used for a murder? --Robert Merkel

Thanks ChrisPer, it sounds like you have some great stuff to add and I'm glad you see the value of NPOV. Don't worry too much about the rules, encyclopedic style and NPOV are the most important, other things can be tidied up for you by others -- as Robert points out, though, it would be good if you could provide your sources (we can help with setting them out in the right syntax etc). So, be bold in updating pages! P.S. If you put four tildes at the end of your messages (~~~~) it puts your name at the end, linked to your user page, which makes things easier. --Russell E 02:06, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Robert and Russell, I will document my sources when I edit. ChrisPer 09:47, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Images?

I always think a few images are good to spice up an entry, for those with TV-conditioned attention spans ;). I've found a couple of good copyright-expired candidates here: ... these illustrate the "settlement-1980s" section. However, if we only put these (or one of these) in, it could be considered POV. One could possibly also use the mugshot in the Martin Bryant entry but then it would look a bit odd without pictures for every other section .. so I'm not sure what to do. Suggestions? --Russell E 00:36, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

If we could locate an image of the government advertising campaign from the national gun buyback scheme, that would be a good one to add. --Robert Merkel 11:46, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Statistics

A wise man once said to me. "You've heard the weight of opinion, now let me give you the weight of evidence."

According to the Australian Bureau of Statistics the murder rate has not changed since the new laws. You are just as likely to be killed today as you were at any time in the last 10-20 years (excepting 1996).

The suicide rate was already going down for the 15 years leading up to 1996, so the ongoing downwards trend cannot be attributed to firearm laws.

78% of firearm deaths in Australia are suicides, mostly young males, with many confounding factors, such as depression, unemployment, alcohol/drug use, etc.

Only 5% of suicides involved firearms.

The violent crime rate has risen since the new laws.

Our biggest killers are still heart disease, cancer and road deaths.

I have treated numerous drug overdoses, and several attempted non-firearm suicides. The only gunshots I have treated were those involving drugs and alcohol.

I can think of dozens of better ways for the $500 million to have been spent. How many lives could have been saved by fixing roads, for a start? --DocJ 02:15, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree with much of your argument, but Misplaced Pages is not the place to make such an argument yourself. It's a place to quote other people or groups that have made the same argument. Is it that hard to find published references making precisely this point? --Robert Merkel 07:40, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

      (Isn't that exactly what I did, Robert? I quoted figures from the ABS. Incidentally, according to the Australian & New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry, absence of a firearm does not affect how likely a person is to attempt suicide.) DocJ 05:33, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Remove NPOV tag?

It's been over a month since someone objected to my proposal to remove the NPOV tag. Since they are anonymous I don't know whether they've made any changes. Since that person hasn't responded to my query on what they wish to change and whether they're going to change it, and seeing there have been no major changes made in the last couple of weeks, I propose once more that the NPOV tag be removed. I will do so one week from today unless somebody objects. --Russell E 05:17, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Done. --Russell E 01:59, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Support for statement "Ms. Samantha Lee, chair and apparently sole member"?

Can the person who is making the statement above subtantiate it? If not I think it should be removed... (But then I'm new to Misplaced Pages so not quite sure of the rules :-) 131.172.4.45 08:05, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

It wasn't me who made the statement, but I point to this article I helped write: http://www.c-l-a-s-s.net/who_are_the_NCGC.htm and its source: http://www.shootersparty.org.au/JT%20Newsletter%2025%20Mar%2004.pdf Last Monday morning, March 22, Mike Jefferys, who does the breakfast programme on 2CC Canberra, interviewed Samantha Lee about the launch. When he asked her who the NCGC actually were, and how many of them there were, she hedged. When he put it to her that she was the only member, she replied, “Maybe I’ve just got a loud voice.”

I have trawled and trawled for info on the NCGC and they are very shadowy. At the time of the buyback they were very loud and large, and listed about 20 major organisations as members, such as the Public Health Association. Now they appear to have no-one except Lee, because the other high-profile former activists Simon Chapman, Roland Browne, Charles Watson and Tim Costello are busy contributing to society. ChrisPer 05:33, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

This same question was asked above. As I said there, the statement is clearly referenced. The reference is a radio interview, a transcript of which is available online. In it, Sam Lee tacitly acknowledges that she is the sole member. --Russell E 09:58, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Changes to NCGC and Howard Government

I added some info to these sections to add in the role of the AIC as 'umpire' appointed by the government, and clarify the NCGC reference. I am quite new to Misplaced Pages, and welcome your edits/suggestions.

Also, the references seem to be getting out of line - there are at least 16 numbers in the text but only 15 in the reference list. ChrisPer 08:08, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

That's right, annoyingly we have to manually make sure they're in the correct order (i.e. the order in which they're cited in the text). I'll try to fix them. -- Russell E 09:57, 2 December 2005 (UTC)