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Revision as of 22:46, 22 February 2010

	Ryan White is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
	This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on August 17, 2008.
Article milestones Date Process Result September 18, 2007 Peer review Reviewed October 20, 2007 Good article nominee Listed January 30, 2008 Featured article candidate Promoted
Current status: Featured article

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Through August 2009

Apparently, my changes are limited to 20 seconds before they are automatically made. Anyway, a quote from Reagan, much less a boxed, highlighted quote from Reagan is completely antithetical to the lessons of Ryan White as the 'poster boy' for HIV/AIDS, and is, in fact, very insulting. Why not put quotes from Adolph Hitler ca. 1934-1936 where he describes his 'concern' for the Jews on the page of Anne Frank? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.230.108.56 (talk) 09:08, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

You're missing the point entirely. The article itself outlines how Reagan's stance on AIDS changed, largely in part to Ryan White's involvement. It also details how White spoke in front of Reagan's AIDS Commission, co-hosted the after-Oscars party with the Reagans and spent time with them. More specifically in the article, it says "On the day of the funeral, former president Reagan—who had been widely criticized] for failing to mention AIDS in any speeches until 1987 although he had spoken on the issue in press conferences beginning in 1985—wrote a tribute to White that appeared in The Washington Post. Reagan's statement about AIDS and White's funeral were seen as indicators of how greatly White had helped change perceptions of AIDS."

Were seen as indicators of how greatly White had helped change perceptions of AIDS. The quote is not only proper, it would be remiss to omit it. Four months after White's death, The Ryan White Care Act was signed. There is no greater indicator of the effect Ryan White had than to detail how, in a matter of a handful of years, he changed the viewpoint of even the President who at one point, would not speak in public about AIDS. Sorry, dude, you're simply wrong. Wildhartlivie (talk) 12:15, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Broken Link

The website http://www.ryanwhite.com is no longer in service. I highly suggest that all of the links, and references be removed that forward to this website. Please leave your thoughts. -- RttamN_C 01:10, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, that's quite premature. In the past, there have been times when the site has not been available online and has displayed as it does right now, and has come back online. There are a lot of reasons why that might happen and it has been our practice on this page to leave the url in hidden text in anticipation of the possible or probable return of the site. It was still active as of Saturday when it was last cached by Google. There is no mandate to take this out so quickly. The article is well watched by those of us who worked on it to attain its featured article status. If it becomes apparent that the website is not being moved to a new server or host or is just not coming back, then it will be removed as hidden text. There is also time to wait before searching out a different source for his birthdate. There is only one actual link or reference actively being used from the site. Wildhartlivie (talk) 02:16, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

It looks like the domain registration lapsed and got swallowed by a cyber squatter. Let's give it some time to see if they get it back. The timeline is still available on the Internet Archive. In a worst-case scenario I believe it's possible to reconstruct most of this from the associated press stories although I don't have on-demand access to their archives anymore. --JayHenry (talk) 02:51, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

So sayeth the person who really worked it up to featured status. I more or less just babysit. The only real thing that is cited from the website is the timeline/birth date. Hi there, JayHenry. Wildhartlivie (talk) 03:37, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi Wildhart! Thanks for watching the page so closely so I can spend my time zoned out! Do you happen to know if there's a guideline somewhere about citing InternetArchive version of pages? I made a New Years Resolution in 2009 to never again look at the Manual of Style and so far I've successfully made it 11 months... I thought I had cited some other stuff from ryanwhite.com, but I guess not. I might just make a note that "the original site is currently down, but a copy is available at InternetArchive" unless someone can find evidence of the proper way to do it. --JayHenry (talk) 03:54, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

It's not so much a guideline as just additions to the already existing citation template. There's a citation generator tool here, but to make it easy on you (me?), use this: <ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.ryanwhite.com/pages/timeline.html |title=A Timeline of Key Events in Ryan's Life |accessdate=2009-12-02 |publisher=Ryanwhite.com |archiveurl=http://web.archive.org/web/20071012032359/www.ryanwhite.com/pages/timeline.html |archivedate=2007-10-12}}</ref> and for the homepage, {{cite web |url=http://www.ryanwhite.com |title=Ryan White |accessdate=2009-12-02 |publisher=Ryanwhite.com |archiveurl=http://web.archive.org/web/20071012032344/www.ryanwhite.com/ |archivedate=2007-10-12}} can be used. Wildhartlivie (talk) 04:21, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Ah interesting! I didn't know about those parameters. I guess that's probably the best solution, right? --JayHenry (talk) 05:37, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

It's the best solution, and it makes this matter resolved! Wildhartlivie (talk) 09:25, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

'Gay' vs 'homosexual'

"Homosexual" is a clinical term, "gay" is a social term. There are gay communities, but not homosexual communities. Modern style guides also recommend "gay" over "homosexual" as a noun. From the "homosexuality" entry:

Many modern style guides in the U.S. recommend against using homosexual as a noun, instead using gay man or lesbian. Similarly, some recommend completely avoiding usage of homosexual as it has a negative, clinical history and because the word only refers to one's sexual behavior (as opposed to romantic feelings) and thus it has a negative connotation. Gay and lesbian are the most common alternatives.

I therefore suggest the changes seen here: . 67.100.222.184 (talk) 20:29, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Except content in this article is based on citations, some of which rely on clinical sources, all of which say "homosexual". This isn't a page for crusading for political correctness. As for your quote, the spread of AIDS in that community was based on sexual behavior, not romantic feelings. AIDS was never spread by loving someone, only by having sex with them. Wildhartlivie (talk) 11:44, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I do not suggest that any of the historical quotations be changed. I also agree that the adjective "homosexual" is a clinical term appropriate for clinical applications. But in the modern use of the term by Misplaced Pages authors, "homosexual" should not be used as a noun to refer to individuals. If Misplaced Pages's entry on homosexuality is not sufficient, Misplaced Pages's own style manual should help to clarify. Under "identity," it states: "Avoid the use of certain adjectives as nouns: for example, use black people rather than blacks, gay people rather than gays, disabled people rather than the disabled." Surely, if the style manual does not even allow "gay" as a noun (a rule to which an exception is generally made for the phrase "gays and lesbians"), then the more antiquated use of "homosexual" as a noun should be avoided as well. As for communities being "homosexual," they are such only when referring clinically to a community of biological organisms. When referring to people who interact socially and have an identity, the social term "gay" is more appropriate. Yes, HIV spread in the gay community through homosexual intercourse, but the community does not need to be renamed to something more explicitly sexual because of that. The community entry may be helpful in distinguishing between biological and sociological communities. 67.100.222.184 (talk) 08:19, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

As I said, the use of the term here is supported by sources, and it is not about sociological terminology, identity or political correctness. It is about following the sources and sourcing the use. This is about an disease effecting a specific population from behavioral, not political, causes and is not being renamed. At the time of the events in this article, homosexual was the term in use and is rightly used here. No one from LGBT projects have ever objected to the use here. Wildhartlivie (talk) 08:49, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I do agree that "homosexual" was used at the time and is still used in a clinical sense in clinical literature today. When directly quoting those sources, I would argue for the use of "homosexual." But when modern authors are writing about the subject in Misplaced Pages, those authors should use modern terminology. For example, the Negro league baseball article states:

"The Negro leagues were American professional baseball leagues comprising teams predominantly made up of African Americans. The term may be used broadly to include professional black teams outside the leagues....

The term "African American" did not exist in the time of the Negro leagues, but it does exist in the time of Misplaced Pages. So when referring to the proper title of the leagues, which was defined in the past, we use "Negro," but when current-day Wikipedians write words of their own authorship, they use words of the present: "African American" and "black." Also, a note on "political correctness": this term is primarily used today to disparage what is seen as a fear of offending others. But calling people by the names they wish to be called is not necessarily evidence of fear. It may instead be evidence of respect. 67.100.222.184 (talk) 08:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I would add that "gay" wasn't exactly a foreign term at the time, either. The original name for AIDS was "Gay-Related Immune Disease," and Ryan White's own mother, as quoted in the article, used the term "gay community." 67.100.222.184 (talk) 08:28, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Look, I'm not going to come in here night after night to respond to this. You really aren't comparing the use of the term "negro" to that of "homosexual"? Sincerely? They also used to use the words "fags" and "queers" but you won't find that in this article. As I said, this article passed featured article easily using this terminology. No one, even reviewers connected with LGBT projects objected. No one else has objected like this. We are talking about clinical behavior in a specific community. The FA reviewers had no issue with it, no one else has an issue with it. Wildhartlivie (talk) 10:29, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I do understand that continually engaging on this topic is tiresome, and I do apologize, but I'll still respond to your points. 1) Yes, I do sincerely believe that both "negro" and "homosexual" are outdated terms that carry significant negative connotations. For evidence of those negative connotations, see this recent CBS poll that found that support for gay rights drops considerably when the word "gay" is simply replaced with "homosexual." And if middle America recoils at the word "homosexual," I suspect gay America does more so. 2) Yes, "queer" is used in this article, and I support it, because it's quoting words used at the time. It would be historical revisionism to change a direct quote. 3) Featured article status does not preclude improvement. 4) Good point, and so I've asked the LGBT project members what they think. 5) I'll adjust my argument a bit here. We are not talking about clinical behavior, and neither is anything quoted as using "homosexual" in this article. The clinical sexual behavior that causes the spread of HIV is not homosexual behavior but is, instead, unprotected anal and vaginal intercourse. Of course, Ryan White taught us that AIDS isn't a gay disease (nor a strictly sexual one). And, further, you can have all the homosexual sex you'd like without getting HIV as long as it isn't unprotected anal. But not even the most clinically-minded person would speak of unprotected anal communities. To test whether an instance of "homosexual" is referring to a person or to a biological function, see if replacing "homosexual" with "gay sexual" results in something you've ever heard of. "Homosexual activity" and "homosexual behavior" easily become "gay sexual activity" and "gay sexual behavior." But a search for "gay sexual community" results in fewer than a dozen Google hits, half of which are pornographic. But like I said, I know this is a tiresome discussion, so I've asked the LGBT project members what they think. If you can think of an even better third party to refer questions to, let me know. 67.100.222.184 (talk) 13:33, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'm someone else, and I have an issue with it. Three points, as briefly as I can: (1) FA status isn't indicative of perfection, nor should it be used as an excuse for not improving the article. (2) The word homosexual when used as a noun is indeed widely considered offensive (and perhaps similarly anachronistic as Negro, although speculation on that point is rather beside the point). Its use is deprecated in various major reference works, such as dictionaries and style guides. While homosexual functions grammatically as an adjective in the phrase "homosexual community", it is arguably still doing the work of a noun in that context since the phrase arguably refers to a "community of homosexuals" . At best, it isn't a case of an adjective being applied to a whole group (e.g., a "large community" or a "cohesive community") but rather to its individual members. (3) The word population could be substituted for community. This wouldn't be a perfect fix, but it would sound fully "clinical" (to use your word) rather than juxtaposing a clinical term with a word like community, which has cultural connotations. Rivertorch (talk) 13:39, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm another someone else - and a part of the gay community - and I have an issue with it as well. I totally agree that the use of "homosexual" is clinical and except for instances where clinical terms in this article are appropriate, "gay" should be used instead. --SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 22:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I've asked someone else to look at this. Not gonna spend more time on this, except to say don't be disingenuous here, yes, the word "queer" is used - in an example of a harassing taunt thrown at White. Surely you didn't think I meant use it as a positive word?? Wildhartlivie (talk) 19:18, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Is it only in the lead that this is an issue? If so, the first sentence of the second paragraph can be rewritten as "In the early 1980s, AIDS was first identified as a "gay disease", initially given the name "gay cancer", and was strongly identified with male homosexuality until other prominent HIV-infected people, such as White, Magic Johnson, the Ray brothers and Kimberly Bergalis, appeared in the media to advocate for more AIDS research and public education to address the epidemic." --Moni3 (talk) 21:39, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I was asked to repost my comment regarding this from Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject LGBT studies, so here goes: Looking at the two references used in the "Ryan White and public perception of AIDS" section, the NY Times article uses the word "gay" many more times than the word "homosexual". I don't have access to And the Band Played On, but the article (which appears well sourced) uses "gay community" rather than "homosexual community". So the sources seem to support a change to "gay" (except in direct quotes using "homosexual" of course), and they certainly don't seem to prohibit the change. Siawase (talk) 10:38, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Two issues need to be taken into consideration here. First, this is a featured article and if there is any chance of keeping it this way, the component of brilliant writing needs to remain a part of it. That means word diversity. "Gay" or "homosexual" used too many times in the same sentence or paragraph when the words basically mean the same thing and can be interchanged is clumsy writing. Secondly, I do not know how "homosexual" is pejorative and I am flagrantly homosexual. It is a more clinical term than "gay", so its use varies depending on the purpose, but I don't know where this perceived potential offense comes from. We have an entire suite of articles based on "queer". --Moni3 (talk) 13:05, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. There were two sides here. One was a nearly complete changeover from the use of the word "homosexual" to the use of the word "gay". That this is a featured article is part of the consideration from me that the terminology needs to depend on the sources. There is a happy medium here to be explored. This is not an essay on what others perceive as political correctness, thus my points about the sociological equivalent being made between the use of "homosexual" to "negro". Not the same thing. If the contention that the word "homosexual" is clinical, then clinically referring to sexual behavior needs to be considered. So there are situations where the use of "gay" may be acceptable, but this article is not the vehicle for being pointy and making wholesale terminology changes. Wildhartlivie (talk) 13:38, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Aside from the lead and two brief mentions, the words "homosexual" and "gay" appear in the section "Ryan White and public perception of AIDS". In this section the word "homosexual" is used exclusively in the prose. "Gay" is only used in the wikilinked "gay-related immune deficiency" and a direct quote. When it comes to diversity of wording, if anything "homosexual" is repeated over and over right now. By the way, I don't have an opinion on which is less pejorative, but I looked at the sources since Wildhartlivie said: "content in this article is based on citations, some of which rely on clinical sources, all of which say 'homosexual'." But the sources actually used in the section that deals with the gay and homosexual angle are not clinical, nor do they predominantly use the word "homosexual". Siawase (talk) 14:10, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I have And the Band Played On. In fact, I wrote the article. Let me know if you want me to look anything up. --Moni3 (talk) 15:40, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, the first two sentences in that section is sourced to And the Band Played On. I assume that "homosexual problem" is a time accurate direct quote, but I wonder about "homosexual communities", since the And the Band Played On article uses "gay community/ies" exclusively. I don't know if there's anything specific to look up though, since the use is pervasive throughout that article. I guess if you could confirm if it is in the book as well? Siawase (talk) 17:15, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I take no issue with quoting a "homosexual problem," or any other quoted term from the time, but I don't see why, without quotation, modern Wikipedians should themselves refer to gay people as "homosexuals" when numerous style guides are in agreement that "homosexual" should not be used as a noun. Also, while I wouldn't completely use a book from 1987 to define modern style, "And The Band Played On" contains zero references to a "homosexual community" and at least 100 references to a "gay community," as per Google Books. 66.167.48.33 (talk) 22:32, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you completely. Also, note that And the Band Played On was written by a gay man from within the gay community. It's obvious from how this article uses "homosexual" so frequently as a noun, that it hasn't had enough previous influence from the gay community. Hopefully, that will now change. Let's see this article become even better still by the correct use of "homosexual" and the incorrect use changed appropriately. Political correctness has nothing to do with it. --SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 22:45, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

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