Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:12, 5 November 2011

Some of my essays:

WP:False consensus

WP:KNOW

WP:Advocacy articles

WP:PIECE

WP:Midden

WP:Baby and Bathwater

WP:Wikifurniture

WP:Contentious

WP:Sex, Religion and Politics

WP:Editorially involved

Happy Collect's Day!

User:Collect has been identified as an Awesome Wikipedian, and therefore, I've officially declared today as Collect's day! For being such a beautiful person and great Wikipedian, enjoy being the Star of the day, dear Collect! Peace, Rlevse 00:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC) A record of your Day will always be kept here.

For a userbox you can add to your userbox page, see User:Rlevse/Today/Happy Me Day! and my own userpage for a sample of how to use it. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

And sincere best regards and thanks to you! Collect (talk) 00:09, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Seeking clarity

Collect, I'm sorry, but I'm confused by what you're saying, regarding watchlists and discussions. Really what I'm trying to figure out is, since you appear to agree that this matter should be decided by a properly held discussion, rather than the chaotic mess that got us here, do you also agree that such a discussion will settle nothing unless it takes place at a central venue? Can we look forward to your contributions on the subject at Talk:Abortion debate#Merger proposal? HuskyHuskie (talk) 14:30, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

In order to work on a discussion on a page, I find it pretty much essential to watchlist that page. I have made my opinion known, and the "merge" proposal had been shot down recently in the first place, so all of this is taking additional bites of the apple. AFAICT, the merge proposal has failed in the past, and for one editor to assert that since he got all of three others to agree with him on a different page that therefore his merge proposal has consensus fails to pass the laugh test <g>. By the way, merge proposal in the past generally are held on multiple pages, so all of his posturing and strange revert of my "unclosing" a wrongly closed discussion is just too weird for words. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:01, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't speak for Eraserhead, nor he for me (see my comments on his talk page). You say that merge proposals generally take place on multiple pages? That may well be true (I have no experience in these matters), but I can't see how that works. Especially when there are three articles in question. Could you point to some examples, by any chance?

I don't see that the proposal was "shot down" (to me that term implies a consensus the other way) but submit that the merge proposal failed to gain consensus either way because it lacked a proper forum. There was chaos on multiple pages and determination of consensus was nearly impossible. This is a pretty new topic to me, but I would be quite willing, if I believe that there is a good faith effort on the parts of editors on both sides, to put a stop to future "bites of the apple", once a consensus is achieved in a single forum. HuskyHuskie (talk) 17:58, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Certainly if a consensus is reached at Talk:Abortion debate then I won't push further for a merge of these articles. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:05, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

You decidedly lack consensus at Pro Life - which means that part is a fail. Cheers. Collect (talk)

I've just been checking the various policy pages - specifically Help:Merging#Proposing_a_merger, and it states (emphasis not mine) "Please use the discuss parameter to direct to the same talk page. Otherwise, two separate discussions could take place in each of the respective talk pages.", so actually the standard practice is always to have a single discussion. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:56, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

There have been prior merger discussions on the page - and you, yourself, initiated the one which you "closed". Meanwhile, no prior merger discussion on that page got consensus to merge, and there is a clear consensus on that page not to merge. Changing pages for discussion is WP:FORUMSHOPPING so I earnestly suggest that you remove the Pro Life article from your attempted merge. When a page shows a clear consensus against a merge, the merge fails. Cheers. Collect (talk) 20:07, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

With respect, Collect, your presumption that this is a case of "forum shopping" demonstrates a lack of good faith. Speaking only for myself, I found the experience at Pro-life movement to be frustrating not because consensus was not achieved (indeed, for the short while I was looking in, the merge appeared to have the support of the participants). The suggestion to move the discussion to Abortion debate was not made because of a lack of support, but because it seemed to me to be a logical way to deal with the problem of split discussions. It's not asking much to see the sincerity of the intent there, I think.

I know that my intent here is entirely based in good faith. I ask that you extend the same and become part of a unified discussion. Go there and express your reasons for opposing. Don't criticize the process, become a part of the discussion to improve the process. Your ideas about the merge, which clearly are against, will be respected, but you must express them. HuskyHuskie (talk) 03:19, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

I only thought the discussion was moved because pro-life had been merged into abortion debate and having the discussion on a redirected talk page would be dishonest and miss any further comments. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:06, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

In any event, I trust you will carefully note on that page that there is absolutely no consensus to merge from the discussion on the Pro Life page - just as there was no consensus to merge earlier on that page? And that your view that "noone objected" was a tad errant? Cheers. Note also that the "redirect" was challenged, and so using that as an argument is extraordinarily weak. Collect (talk) 10:11, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

at the time i conducted the merge I believe the statement was correct. Which is the point I was making. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 10:26, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

I think you forgot the lengthy discussion at the top of the talk page indicating the result only a month ago - if you wish to contact everyone who commented there, (allowable under CANVASS rules) that might be a good start before asserting that "noone" opposed a merge. Looks to me like a great number opposed a merge, in fact, only a month ago. Consensus can change, but a discussion of that length only a month ago is not likely to be over-ridden by a total of four people. Really. Cheers. Collect (talk) 10:30, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

I missed that. I'll take a look and contact the relevant people. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 10:37, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Also note that moving the discussion makes the material already discussed unavailable for people to easily read. One of the primary reasons for not moving discussions to different pages. "Relevant" in this case means "everyone who participated" in order to obey the CANVASS rules, by the way. Cheers. Collect (talk) 10:40, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

People's Pledge

I have opened an RfC on the above. (You commented in April when it was brought to NPOVN, the question is still open.) Itsmejudith (talk) 11:19, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Koch Industries

I am truly astonished that you did not know that "heavy industry" is associated with pollution. I do not know where you live or how old you are, but I am assuming from that lack of understanding by experience alone, that you must live somewhere where the population is quite spread out to have that associative understanding.

Dear anonymous, Misplaced Pages works by using what reliable sources state on topics, and not by asserting that we "know" something. Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:43, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

List

You made some good points on the Line of Succession to the British Throne. But isn't that site an article about the "Line of Succession" which contains a list. The first 10 lines of the article don't even mention a list. That comes later. That means it is not a stand alone list. But I think the people arguing don't care about Misplaced Pages, they want to win. 130.102.158.15 (talk) 02:39, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you, Collect. Best wishes.--Mbz1 (talk) 05:24, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

1953 coup

I'm notifying contributors to the 1953 Iranian coup article about a proposed change in the article posted on the talk page, that adds information about events leading up to the coup. Only a couple of comments so far. Am planning to request comments WP:RfC later. --BoogaLouie (talk) 23:49, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

"folks who back LaRouche"

• Glad to see folks who back LaRouche here. Collect (talk) 12:48, 28 May 2011 (UTC) Talk:Prescott Bush

What does that mean?   Will Beback  talk  23:59, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

No improper meaning should be attached thereto, Will. The association of the Tarpley-Chaitkin book with the organization headed by the Lyndon LaRouche organization (published by the Executive Intelligence Review of Washington, a LaRouchian press) has not been helpful, to say the least. Nor has the sensationalist tone and dubious message of Loftus’s The War Against the Jews. is a quote from HNN.US directly referring to those promoting the Prescott Bush conspiracy theory. Cheers. Collect (talk) 10:53, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

FYI - Jerome Corsi

On 24 May you contributed an observation to a sub-topic in my Jerome Corsi WP:BLP inquiry. I would be interested in responding to your observation and had requested that you consider re-posting it to the article talk since the WP:BLP sub-topic is, IMHO, irrelevant to the purpose of my WP:BLP inquiry and I have no wish to further digress from its intended focus. In the oft chance that you might have missed my request, please consider this note as an FYI. Thanks. JakeInJoisey (talk) 13:50, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Larry Norman

Thank you for "de-puffing" the article. Feel free to continue. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:40, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

GWills RfC

I replied to your concerns on the RfC's talk page. I think we weren't debating the same issue. Sorry for the confusion. --Coemgenus 18:33, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

RFC on a subpage structure for the Manual of Style

Hi Collect.

As someone who contributed to discussion when the issue was raised a little while ago, you may like to have your say in the current RFC on subpages, at WT:MOS.

Noetica 05:47, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

John Anderson, 3rd Viscount Waverley

Looks like cyber-bullying to me. Please see also Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/HarbieHencock. Sergeant Cribb (talk) 17:21, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Deletion of WP:BLP zealot

I guess I'm a little confused about your recent comment. I'm not sure why it comes across as WP:IDONTLIKEIT, the policy I'm trying to get at is WP:CIVIL, and angry ad hominem rants seem inconsistent with civility, even if the target is not named. Am I misunderstanding something about the civility policy? Honestly, I've been here a long time but I've never been particularly active, so it's possible I'm just confused. SDY (talk) 06:09, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I tend to be very lenient about essays - most would go unread entirely if no one tried to AfD them <g>. Besides, it allows me to get input for "Why we need BLP zealots" as an essay - with examples. (see User:Collect/BLP) I think that such would be extremely powerful indeed. The best resnse to a "wrong" essay is one which powerfully states the reasons why it is wrong, not deleting it. IMO, of course. Collect (talk) 11:19, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I disagree, but I see where you're coming from. Looks like the MfD was closed anyway. Hardly a big deal, that essay doesn't exactly have a lot of incoming links. SDY (talk) 13:39, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Cirt comment

Hi Collect. I wanted to as you about your "Outside view by Collect" on the Cirt RFC/U. I don't want to read anything that you didn't intend into your statement, so I thought that it would be a good idea to ask you about it.

By my reading, it sounds as though you think that Cirt himself, the Misplaced Pages editor, was creating (or using someone else's, which is tantamount to the same thing) "scatological "neologisms" based on a person's name", and thereby violating the BLP policy by attacking people from a Misplaced Pages article. Is that a good read of your view, or am I misreading something?
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 23:51, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I intended no such reading of my comments, and do not feel they implied Cirt is Savage at all. Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:21, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying. :)

Still, the sentence "making sure material which properly falls under BLP in my opinion (scatological "neologisms" based on a person's name, for example) is proper as far as the editors here are concerned." seems... 'wrongheaded', I guess, to me. I mean... Dan Savage, John Stewart, and others, have used their media presence to say the things that they've said, and they'll obviously continue to do so. You seem to be saying that we (more accurately, our articles) shouldn't mention those things because... they're bad? They don't adhere to our BLP policy? I don't know, I'm guessing here. And trying to understand your thinking here, you know? Should we discuss this here, on the RFC/U page, somewhere else (I don't want to stress you out about this, or anything...)?
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 00:44, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Yellow Journalism/ Gossip Magazine

Hi Collect When you deleted my See Also entry I should have left it at that - I have learnt to see the signs of those whose hubris cannot allow to be contradicted. So, as I don't waste time on these puny ego battles, you can have it your way. But out of curiosity, are your two motivations for removing "Gossip Magazine" from the "see also" section slighty at odds with each other? 1. you say: "rm as no direct connection to term "yellow journalism" is sourced)" 2. you say: ""tabloid journalism" is already linked - rather than have a list of every tabloid aro)". So, shall we go for "no direct connection is sourced" or should we stick to "rather than have a list of every tablois aro"? You decide, you are the boffin here. Oh, as an after-thought: I've seen far more weirder stuff included unded "see also", so please, seeing that you are so good at weeding out out the unnecesary entries, please do that for us. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 08:18, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is a weak rationale. We have a "tabloid" link, and "Daily Gossip" would properly fall into that category. The DG article does not use the term "yellow hournalism" nor did I find it associated with DG. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:28, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Saddleback (Yet again)

The pro-Prop-8 crowd is at it again, this time with the Saddleback Church article, since Warren's is semi-protected. I'm out of edits for the day, can you look into it?--Lyonscc (talk) 21:55, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Magog seems on solid ground - the Rick Warren mediation was an adventure, to be sure, and I would hope someone whould point him to the nature of the issues addressed there. Cheers. Collect (talk) 23:55, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Abortion naming

A proposal has been made to rename the two abortion articles to completely new names, namely 'Opposition to legalized abortion' and 'Support for legalized abortion'. The idea, which is located at the Mediation Cabal, is currently open for opinions. Your thoughts on the matter would be appreciated. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:16, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Completely new abortion proposal and mediation

In light of the seemingly endless disputes over their respective titles, a neutral mediator has crafted a proposal to rename the two major abortion articles (pro-life/anti-abortion movement, and pro-choice/abortion rights movement) to completely new names. The idea, which is located here, is currently open for opinions. As you have been a contributor in the past to at least one of the articles, your thoughts on the matter would be appreciated.

The hope is that, if a consensus can be reached on the article titles, the energy that has been spent debating the titles of the articles here and here can be better spent giving both articles some much needed improvement to their content. Please take some time to read the proposal and weigh in on the matter. Even if your opinion is simple indifference, that opinion would be valuable to have posted.

To avoid accusations that this posting violates WP:CANVASS, this posting is being made to every non-anon editor who has edited either page since 1 July 2010, irrespective of possible previous participation at the mediation page. HuskyHuskie (talk) 20:01, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Request for Arbitration Notification

Hello, due to recent events a request for arbitration has been filed by ResidentAnthropologist (talk · contribs) regarding long standing issues in the "Cult" topic area. The request can be found at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Cults The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 07:39, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Jay Severin

Sorry to bother you, but the article you so kindly looked over has become problematic (at least to me). I don't really have the experience or savvy to get an assessment going on what threatens to become an edit war, and I'm embarrassed lest I become a POV-pusher myself. Do you know of any other editors or admins interested in and experienced with BLP issues who might be willing to spend a few minutes reviewing the article and the talk page? Here's a diff for the revised article I put together - it's substantially different from what's currently up. I do apologize for this, but if I'm demonstrating either ownership or POV-pushing, I'd like to be told so by a third party. And I especially want nothing to do with 3RR wars and drama - I already caught myself starting to play stupid games. Thanks. TreacherousWays (talk) 15:11, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

The two most experienced are Jclemens and Off2riorob, as far as I can tell. Cheers. !!!!

Thank you - I will leave messages on their talk pages. TreacherousWays (talk) 15:53, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

I have no problem with the undue weight tag, which has been restored. My problem has always been with the absurd amount of brand new unsourced material in the rewrite. Xerxesnine (talk) 19:33, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

There is no excuse for any unsourced contentious material in any BLP. Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:34, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi, Collect - I am logging off. If you have chance please have a look at the article now, thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 00:38, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Collect, Arbitrary Determination of What is an RS

Collect, for you to say an AP photo and collaborating news sites are NOT reliable sources is simply incredulous on your part. The matter happened, and just because the gesture was obscene, it cannot be removed because you feel there are not enough sources for it. Your removal has been undone. Removing such content again without going through the proper channels of discussion will result in my request for you to be blocked. The only point of contention is your claim of your ability to unilaterally remove content, which is a critical violation of Misplaced Pages policy. Diligent007 (talk) 00:03, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

"FamousDockets.com" is not a reliable source. The claim is contentious. WP:BLP requires the removal of such claims. Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:24, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Furthremore, just so that we are clear on this, I went ahead and added an MSNBC news article to supplement the citations to make your claim of an RS a non-issue. So, with all due respect, please stop removing content on your own--you do not have that unilateral right. LOL, how is FamousDockets not a reliable source? What is your cryptic deduction process to determine that on your own? In any event, what that docket site reports is corroborated by the MSNBC report. Do you have any sort of interest aligned with the subject of the article? Diligent007 (talk) 00:32, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

It is not a "right" it is a "requirement" per WP:BLP. I suggest you read it carefully before making non-cedible charges against any editors. Cheers. BTW, I have absolutely zero connection with Mason, Anthony, the Orlando Police, the Judge, Nancy Grace or anyone else remotely connected with anything here. I suggest you note that making such accusations may land you in "eau chaud." Collect (talk) 01:02, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Listen, Collect, take some of your own advice: I have not accused you of saying you had an interest, I merely inquired--that's a difference. Furthermore, pay careful attention to Misplaced Pages:vandalism. In light of the foregoing, you have made a significant and undisputable removal of content on your own--unilaterally--without conducting yourself in a manner consistent with Misplaced Pages, and that is to seek a discussion about any removal. Consequently, such unilateral removal is considered vandalism. Mason, the subject of the article, is an attorney who is alleged to have infamously extended his finger out towards others in public. No reasonable person would find that to be subject to any sort of debate. In fact, allegedly Mason admitted to doing that because a guy was previously harassing him and/or his staff--but the point is that it occurred. It is of public interest. Various media outlets have documented. Now, if you want to argue against all these media sources, do it the proper way, and submit it for discussion. (Though, in the process, I think you find to be a discredited editor.) Do not, however, hijack an article by virtue of eliminating content as you see fit and come to believe it is okay because it is not. Diligent007 (talk) 01:10, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Gosh -- try reading WP:CIVIL as well. Where WP:BLP requires removal of material, that is that. As for shouting vandalism I suggest you become aware also of WP:NPA and WP:WQA to boot. Accusing an editor of "hijacking" an article because he enforces WP:BLP is absurd. Cheers. Now please avoid any further argumentative posts on this page. Collect (talk) 02:40, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Per Misplaced Pages policies, specifically as found in Misplaced Pages:vandalism, I have simply made it incontrovertibly clear that you have been warned. A warning is a required prerequisite to my initiation of any escalated need to seek your being blocked. So, what you call "shouting" is actually the warning Misplaced Pages:vandalism specifies that you receive. Good day, Collect. Diligent007 (talk) 03:32, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Just for reference, I've just reported this user to WP:3RRNB for hitting 5 reverts (warned between 4 and 5) in the last 24 hours. Maybe we can get more talking and less fighting upon xyr return. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:39, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. For a "new user" he seems very familiar with issuing "warnings" about "vandalism", eh? Collect (talk) 11:07, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

RE:Diligent07

I do appreciate your post - it brings some information to light. However, I'm still going to stay on course and try to mediate this one out. Thanks for coming forward, though! Cheers, m.o.p 04:29, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I think that watching will be of use. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:30, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Because this talk pages needs more sections... :)

Judging from the argument that is being made, I don't think my removing of the term will do anything than end with me being marked as "involved" in the disagreement. I haven't checked the DRN thread today, but I was waiting for it to reach some sort of conclusion or archiving, either way, so we know whether a resolution has been reached or the other party has abandoned his point. Hazardous Matt (talk) 11:52, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

All Screwball ever does is accuse me of somehow being a magic hand behind everything he does not like on WP <g>. You would actually be safe on it - it is only I in his sights. See , , , etc. Also note for the heck of it. And for a demonstration of him in action <g>. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:02, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I recalled the name so I'm sure I've interacted with him in the past in some form or another. Honestly, the DRN thread should be closed since he's returned to discussing on the article talkpage. I'm hoping an admin will see that. Hazardous Matt (talk) 12:43, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Sockpuppeteer Ratel,TickleMeister,Ozoke,etc. was unblocked

I have been affected by this sockpuppeteer. As it seems also you have been affected by this sockpuppeteer, then I must inform you. The account Jabbsworth is the 6 sockpuppet used by the known sockpuppeteer Ratel to evade his block and to edit disruptively and warring. Then I do not understand how Jabbsworth was recently unblocked by David Fuchs, precisely just few day after Jabbsworth was blocked by Elockid due the same reason: sockpuppetry to evade a block and edit disruptively and warring. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 00:40, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

The above comment probably falls within the prohibitions of wp:CANVASSING, is therefore disruptive because it seeks to overturn an Arbcom decision, and the recipient would be wise to ignore it, or report it. Jabbsworth (talk) 01:06, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually - no. Cheers - but read what WP:CANVASS actually says. Collect (talk) 15:44, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

This is not canvassing as all this people were effected users. Should I fill a complaint? I think this user at least deserve a topic ban because he was not only blocked due sockpuppetry but also because of disruptive and editting warring, in the same few topics and articles. And I think the users affected should be also considered and protected. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 01:16, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manipulation of BLPs opened

An arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manipulation of BLPs. Evidence that you wish the Arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence sub-page, at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manipulation of BLPs/Evidence. Please add your evidence by August 16, 2011, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can contribute to the case workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manipulation of BLPs/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, NW (Talk) 23:19, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Formal mediation has been requested

The Mediation Committee has received a request for formal mediation of the dispute relating to "Opposition to the legalisation of abortion". As an editor concerned in this dispute, you are invited to participate in the mediation. Mediation is a voluntary process which resolves a dispute over article content by facilitation, consensus-building, and compromise among the involved editors. After reviewing the request page, the formal mediation policy, and the guide to formal mediation, please indicate in the "party agreement" section whether you agree to participate. Because requests must be responded to by the Mediation Committee within seven days, please respond to the request by January 23, 2011.

Discussion relating to the mediation request is welcome at the case talk page. Thank you.
Message delivered by MediationBot (talk) on behalf of the Mediation Committee. 01:53, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Fjordman

When making this edit, did you consider that a very large number of reliable sources have reported on Fjordman in connection with Anders Behring Breivik and the 2011 Norway attacks? Many of the articles are articles about Fjordman (and other people) that Breivik referred to, and some specifically reported about Fjordman. Breivik was mentioned in the context of reports about Fjordman, not vice versa.  Cs32en Talk to me  23:50, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

WP:BLP is clear. Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:34, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

WP:BLP says: "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion." (emphasis by me). Can you explain why you consider the material "unsourced or poorly sourced", or whether you see any other aspect of WP:BLP that would advise us to remove that content?  Cs32en Talk to me  01:04, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I didn't see this section, came here to thank you for sharing my and others' concern for BLP issues at Fjordman. However, I have reinstated the paragraph you removed, since there are a huge number of reliable sources supporting the fact that Breivik made use of Fjordman's writings in his manifesto, and since it reports (also with adequate refs.) Fjordman's subsequent statement repudiating Breivik. The paragraph is as short as it can be made and in the context of Fjordman having been frequently cited by other counterjihadists. (I have at the same time removed the "refimprove" tag added by Cs32en, since I see the references to Fjordman's writings as necessary to the article.) Yngvadottir (talk) 04:45, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Being mentioned in sources != valid reason for ginoring WP:BLP. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:39, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe I am. The coverage is extensive, in numerous respected newspapers. Also, anyone can make use of someone's writings: the fact that Breivik reproduced articles by Fjordman in his manifesto is not a bad thing to say about Fjordman. And also, Fjordman published a repudiation (also reported in multiple reliable sources, including the quotes), which I believe it's important to have in the article to offset the press coverage. If you look at the article history and the talk page, you'll see that I and another editor felt the Breivik mention should be minimal for BLP reasons, and definitely nolt a subheaded section. It currently appears in the context of his writings' having been widely cited and reproduced in the blogosphere. If you still disagree that this reasoning is insufficient, you should of course remove it again, but I'd ask in that case that you post to the talk page to provide a full record there of the thinking about the article—and feel free to reproduce this comment of mine there. --Yngvadottir (talk) 13:07, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

See "Guilt by association." And WP is not a conduit for the "blogosphere" at all -- this is an encyclopedia and not a tabloid. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:18, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

That's why I think it's important to report also on his own statement distancing himself categorically from Breivik. On the blogosphere - the thing is, he's a blogger. As I say, if you feel I have been contravening BLP policy, feel free to remove it again and/or post to the BLP noticeboard (I already did some time ago, and someone else did later from quite a different perspective). I do welcome your coming in on this, especially from a perspective of BLP policy, but the police have now questioned him (that was added this morning and I just modified it), and his name arises in a large proportion of press articles that talk about Breivik's background: people are going to see his name and come to the article on him for info. All I ask is that if you change the article again to remove or further shorten the Breivik part, you post to the article talkpage so that we keep a record there of the different approaches/opinions. Yngvadottir (talk) 15:59, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Blogs are intrinsically "self published sources" WP:SPS Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people and not valid for any claims in a BLP. WP is, moreover, not a newspaper, not a tabloid, but is an encyclopedia. That something is puvblished soemwhere does not make it automatically proper in any BLP on Misplaced Pages. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:03, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

As you may have already noticed, there are quite a number of third-party blogs being used as sources in the article. In addition, the presentation of Fjordman's views is not based primarily on independent sources. Could you have a look at these aspects of the article as well?  Cs32en Talk to me  23:54, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Read WP:V and WP:RS. Blogs are blogs and intrinsically not reliable sources for any article at all. Cheers. Collect (talk) 23:57, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I share your assessment of blogs with regard to our policies. That's why I suggested that you have a look at the other aspects of the article.  Cs32en Talk to me  01:21, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to ask you again to please come to the talk page and state there your interpretation of the BLP rules that led you to remove the paragraph that I had endeavored to make as short, NPOV, and well referenced as possible. The police have now interviewed Fjordman and he has revealed his name to the press; the article is being edited with what I consider undue weight on the Breivik connection; as stated above, I disagree with you about leaving this material entirely out of the article, but I do believe the article talk page is where it should be discussed, and at this point your interpretation is not there. All the more important if it's right. Please let us have the various editing points of view there, where they are easy to find. --Yngvadottir (talk) 12:20, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

WP:BLP is quite clear - no "interpretation" is involved. Reread the policy page. It is in black and white. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:32, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't see where you are deriving your interpretation, so either I'm missing something or we differ over what "contentious" means, or something. Apologies if I'm being dense. I am deeply aware of the need to follow BLP policy on such an article and as I say, was grateful you appeared and edited from a perspective with that in the forefront. I've posted a response to you there. Thank you for engaging there, so that there's an easily findable record for editors who don't know the issues were discussed here. Yngvadottir (talk) 15:41, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Melanie Phillips Breivik content

Hi

It would be useful to have some further details from you at the article's talk page on why you don't want to see the content in the article. I'm about to send the same message to editors who want to see it included, and hopefully we can then get a constructive discussion going on this. SP-KP (talk) 16:58, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Read WP:BLP and the discussions thereon. It is not a matter of "not wanting content" it is a matter of following explicit WP policies. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:59, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks - I suspect the disagreement is because some editors don't feel this content breaches BLP. I feel it would help your case a lot if you could point out the specific sections on BLP which this content infringes, so that those editors who wish to see the content inserted can then understand your argument a little better. Would you be wiling to do that? SP-KP (talk) 17:03, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Read the WP:BLP/N noticeboard then. I trust my position and the positions of most of the denizens there are quite clear. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:11, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll take a look through that page. A summary at the Phillips talk page would be useful though, if you have time, as I think that's where editors who want to see this kind of content inserted in the article are going to look first to see if the subject has come up before. SP-KP (talk) 17:19, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Disinvitation to post here

@Screwball23: Your strange view as to what is "conviction" is noted. You reverted an article on which you had made zero edits in the past, and made comments on my user page. You assert what you WP:KNOW and not what is presented in reliable sources. This is moreover my user page and I find your demeanor less than desireable and I iterate my suggestion quite strongly that you refrain from posting anything here in future other than as required by Misplaced Pages procedures. I find your demeanor, in fact, to be closely related to Butyl mercaptan. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:39, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Autograph as signature in infobox: Request for your participation on my point of view

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Autograph_as_signature_in_infobox Hindustanilanguage (talk) 06:39, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Request for mediation rejected

The request for formal mediation concerning Opposition to the legalisation of abortion, to which you were listed as a party, has been declined. To read an explanation by the Mediation Committee for the rejection of this request, see the mediation request page, which will be deleted by an administrator after a reasonable time. Please direct questions relating to this request to the Chairman of the Committee, or to the mailing list. For more information on forms of dispute resolution, other than formal mediation, that are available, see Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution.

For the Mediation Committee, AGK 21:33, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
(Delivered by MediationBot, on behalf of the Mediation Committee.)

3RR

Do I have to resort to a formal 3RR warning for an established editor? You did not even read my talk page reply before reverting. Siding with editors who resort to disruptive editing to get their own way, will only encourage them to continue in the same vein. The wording reflects the source and is neutral in content. Wee Curry Monster talk 17:19, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

I am at a total of 1RR -- DNTTR folks -- 1RR is not near 3RR. Cheers.

Note further that my talk page edit was well before any action on my part - and you appear to be the only person holding to the insistence that "Vernet claimed the settlement was destroyed." Thus the ball is in your court to overturn the consensus present. Collect (talk) 17:23, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

I had no intention to template the regulars unless it is warranted. Further, I do not appreciate the personal attack in the slightest, especially when you have chosen to side with the two editors responsible for a great deal of disruptive editing. The consensus is with the current text, the ball is actually in your court to over turn it and the appropriate place is the talk page not by edit warring. I am not the only person siding with sticking with the source, we have had months of disruption and needless personal attacks from those two, most people don't respond to either any more. Thank you for encouraging them to continue, all they'll learn is that disruptive editing is the best way to get what they want.

BTW on which SOURCE did you base YOUR edit? Remember verifiability? Wee Curry Monster talk 17:32, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Consensus. And Webster. Vernet may have filed a "claim" (formal claim) against a government, but he "said" the settlement was destroyed. note that the "statement" is different from "Something claimed in a formal or legal manner, especially a tract of public land staked out by a miner or homesteader." Understand the difference? Collect (talk) 17:56, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Which SOURCE says that? Which SOURCE did you use? Wee Curry Monster talk 19:30, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Webster. Your source is not available for anyone to check, is self-published, and not written by an expert on Falkland history - it was based on solicited autobiographies from islanders. I think you will note the outcome of the RS/N discussion. Cheers. Collect (talk) 20:12, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

BLP evidence

Collect, another recent dispute about LGBT categorisation was Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive125#Jay_Brannan. Do you think it's worth adding to the evidence page? --JN466 11:37, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I am relying on Jclemens response to me about evidence, and the ability to add evidence on the workshop page where it deals with individuals. Meanwhile I think my discussions at UT:Jimbo and at User:Collect/counting edits might also bear on some of the issues to be discussed. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:43, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Wow

And with things like this happening about the Wiki, people still don't think having pending changes protection to revert vandal edits like these is a good idea. I'm flabbergasted.

Should we try to kick-start the conversation again? CycloneGU (talk) 21:57, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Your input requested

Hello Collect. Please see Tammsalu's new suggestion at WP:AE#Russavia (dated 09:04 on 19 August). You are invited to expand your own comment in the AE, to propose what (if any) category should be put on the Karen Drambjan article regarding left-wing politics. EdJohnston (talk) 13:34, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Removing of page content at the Koch wikis

Please form the wikipedia. As you self said on the talk page, parts are included elsewhere. Therefor we can consider it reliable. I suggest you read this study. Further i remind you to . Please refer from you uncivil behavior, quote "The problem is that you know 'what ain't so'. You ascribe specific ulterior motives to a person who is not the "creator" of the Tea Party, which rather means all else of your syllogism fails." I ask you now to re add the removed contends, the study is a legit contribution. Gise-354x (talk) 23:35, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Greenpeace is not a Reliable source. They are an activist group with a specific agenda, as such their research is very subject. The basic gist of the Greenpeace argument is already in the article as reported from other reliable source. Arzel (talk) 23:41, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

That is not correct because the greenpeace study is based on reliable sources, unless you can show me that they skew the data in question. Secondly Collect reverted 2 other addiotons and edit of Section name too. Gise-354x (talk) 23:46, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Greenpeace is "reliable" only for its specific opinions cites as opinions per many discussions on the article talk pages at at WP:RSN and WP:BLPN. Treehugger.org is not a reliable source at all. It is required to remove material about living people from articles were the material is not dfrom a reliable source. Cheers. Collect (talk) 23:54, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Ofc both sources are reliable unless you can proof that they are not. You seem to misunderstand something here, because the wiki entries in question are not about living person. One is about political activities and the other is a company. Or do you suggest here that companies are people?Gise-354x (talk) 23:57, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Read WP:RS In fact, I suggest you ask at WP:RS/N whether your edit is proper. There you will get more editors looking at the edit. Cheers. Collect (talk) 23:59, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Why don't you explain to me why the company Koch Industries should be considered a person, as you suggest above? Gise-354x (talk) 00:06, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Koch Industries is not, in itself, a "person". Charles and David Koch who are extensively mentioned in the article ar, however, living persons. Any material which impacts onthem must meet WP:BLP requirements. Is this clear? Collect (talk) 00:13, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

No it is not clear because this all has been part of the wiki before i updated it. You just try to prevent that someone updates the wikipedia. Also sign your messages on my talk page. Gise-354x (talk) 00:31, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Did you read WP:BLP? Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:32, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Formatting problem

The formatting of your recent edits to the Manipulation of BLPs workshop page seems have been badly buggered up by extraneous line breaks (did you copy and paste from Notepad by any chance?) . Grateful if you could fix it as it makes it hard to read. Prioryman (talk) 21:49, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

always Notepad <g>. Collect (talk) 22:27, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Yup, it looked familiar! The solution's simple: the line breaks are added by Word Wrap (under the Format drop-down menu). When you've finished writing something up in Notepad, turn Word Wrap off and copy and paste the text. Prioryman (talk) 22:32, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

High schools

Hi, thank you for your interest in high schools. Can you let me know which school pages you are currently working on so I can help you? TerriersFan (talk) 02:09, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Murder of James Craig Anderson

What part of WP:BLP do you think Murder of James Craig Anderson violates? I really don't understand why you think it is problematic (and I'm not trying to be pedantic). No information that has not been in the mainstream national press (not tabloid) has been presented there and it's all well-sourced. You're an editor that I generally have respect for and I'm genuinely perplexed. Toddst1 (talk) 19:47, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Any time an article which deals with a living person uses "allegedly said (something)" there is a red flag. Seriously. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia - not a place for reciting lots of "allegations" about a person - you may recall the DSK case where people added lots of juicy allegations - only to find the facts as finally printed by reliable sources bore little relation to the juicy stuff. Ditto the Duke Lacrosse case. Ditto the David Copperfield case. Ditto many other cases over the years. Misplaced Pages does not have a deadline - we can wait for the dust to settle before adding the "juicy bits." Cheers. Collect (talk) 02:52, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining that. You have some good points. There is certainly some balance to be struck between protecting personal privacy and writing investigative journalism. Misplaced Pages is not the place for the latter, for sure. In this case, the journalists and the DA have set the bar and I've been cautious to not synthesize anything, fully citing every statement. I appreciate your perspective. Toddst1 (talk) 17:30, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Jeffrey Toobin

These weren't reverts. I completely rewrote the material. Roberts1963 (talk) 13:20, September 3, 2011 (UTC)

Canvassing methods

With a general interest in problems related to canvassing, I came across your post from June at Wikipedia_talk:Canvassing#A_way_of_canvassing_many_people. I was intrigued by your suggestion that there is proper and improper canvassing. Would you care to elaborate or point me to the relevant essay or guideline? Regards, Peter S Strempel | Talk 11:52, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

WP:False consensus draws on Arbitration Committee findings from the past where that committee makes clear the nature of the problem. The general principle is that any attempt to influence in any way a discussion by either choosing the people to be notified on a non-inclusive manner (that is, if one notifies recent editors on an article but only chooses those who hold a specific position), or by phrasing the notice in any way that an outside person might view as being non-neutral, or by soliciting people whom you reasonably believe would hold a specific position in accord with your own, is improper. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:23, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manipulation of BLPs closed

An arbitration case regarding of Manipulation BLPs has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following is a summary of the remedies enacted:

1. Editors who edit biographies of living persons and other articles referring to living persons are reminded that all editing of these articles must comply with the biographies of living persons policy and with the principles set forth in this decision;
2. Administrators and other experienced editors are urged to take a proactive approach in addressing violations and alleged violations of the BLP policy, and to watchlist the BLP noticeboard and participate in discussing and resolving issues raised on that noticeboard;
3. To the extent that parties to this case have been engaged in protracted disputes and quarrels with other parties, the feuding parties are urged to avoid any unnecessary interactions with each other, except to the extent necessary for legitimate purposes such as dispute resolution;
4. If disputes concerning editing of biographical articles by parties to this case persist, appropriate dispute resolution methods should be pursued. To the extent possible, such dispute resolution should be led and addressed by editors who have not previously been involved in the disputes. If a specific serious dispute persists and other means of dispute resolution do not resolve them, a new and specifically focused request for arbitration may be filed not less than 30 days from the date of this decision.

For the Arbitration Committee, Alexandr Dmitri (talk) 15:18, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Talk:Nazism

Hi Collect, this is just to apologise for my breach of wikiquette in moving your comment on Talk:Nazism. I'm trying to keep all related discussion together, so that we can get the discussion closed by an admin and have a concrete indication of consensus. I hope I'm not treading on your toes too much here, and let me assure you that I bear no ill will. In fact, I think your suggestion is a very good one and possibly just what we need to resolve this dispute. Let's see what everyone else thinks of it. — Mr. Stradivarius 01:16, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

3RR warning

I guess you're aware that this is your 3rd revert in less that 24 hours. Anonimu (talk) 16:01, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks - try using another term than ""engineer" as it substantially understates his position -- I suppose "male" would be worse <g>. Please find a term in keeping with his academic credentials as a minimum. Collect (talk) 16:46, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't think calling him "engineer GBL, Ph.D in Economy, expert in economical cybernetics and decision theory" would make him any more reliable.Anonimu (talk) 17:19, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

And the fact that he has written on material directly relevant to the experiment as part of his studies in human behaviour? Seems that would, indeed, be far better than "engineer." Linus Pauling was a "chemist" by such standards, and Einstein a "violinist" I suppose. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:25, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

No, he has written material about the "experiment" because he thought that as a former political prisoner he has the authority to make any judgement regarding the regime that imprisoned him. His book doesn't seem to be reviewed by historians, sociologists or legal experts, much less by experts in economy or cybernetics. The difference between Pauling and Einstein and Boldur is that the first two had their expertise in novel scientific domains (domains which did not have an established curriculum, like law, history or sociology, so becoming an expert was not possible just through formal education) acknowledged and positively reviewed by the scientific community. Boldur is just making some judgement calls, and no scholar seems to care about them. Why should WP do? Anonimu (talk) 18:18, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

How do you explain the other papers by him not related to his personal experience? And why not use the NYT cite I proffered at RS/N as absolutely a reliable source? Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:32, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

What do you mean? People (and especially those in teaching positions) usually write papers in the domain they have expertise, expertise acquired nowadays through formal education, or experiments in the case of novel scientific topics such as those taking place at CERN or JINR (although even those guys had formal education in physics). NYT says what the article already says: Basescu said that the communist authorities were responsible for crime against humanity. It says nothing about Pitesti as a crime against humanity (as a side note, Basescu's report is pretty elusive in saying what the purported "crimes against humanity" allegedly committed by communist authorities actually are).Anonimu (talk) 19:21, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

The NYT states that the report singled out the "experiment" and that the report asserted that the acts corporately constituted "crimes against humanity." Cheers - reread the NYTimes article and note the immediate succession of the statement about crimes. Collect (talk) 19:48, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

That its not obvious from the article. It seems more like your personal interpretation. Let's stick to clear, unambiguous facts.Anonimu (talk) 20:36, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Why not just directly quote that section from the NYT article - that should be neutral. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:52, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Jeff Frederick Article Edit War

Hi, what can we do about the editor VaBio1 who is insisting on use of biased references? --Zeamays (talk) 13:14, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

References are not biased. If you have a specific objection to a reference, please identify the specific reference and what your objection is and we can work toward consensus. Zeamays is refusing to provide specifics about his objections and deletes relevant and updated information that is sourced by objective third parties, generally reputable news outlets. Vabio1 (talk) 16:10, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

This is not the place to discuss the article. I was addressing Collect. --Zeamays (talk) 16:17, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Please stop editing Jeff Frederick page until mediation complete, or provide specific objection on each omission or deletion of content on that page

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/14_September_2011/Jeff_Frederick Vabio1 (talk) 16:04, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Moved here from User:Collect

Please stop editing Jeff Frederick page until mediation complete, or provide specific objection on each omission or deletion of content on that page. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/14_September_2011/Jeff_Frederick Vabio1 (talk) 16:02, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Please recognize that WP:BLP is a policy of Misplaced Pages. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:34, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I know, he seems to have missed the bit where the mediation cabel is an informal arrangement... ;-) --Cameron Scott (talk) 19:06, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't think he gets it - he's currently appealing a 48 hour block with the rationale "Please unblock so we can revert to historical content while dispute resolution is continued." yeah that will work. --Cameron Scott (talk) 12:33, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Is he setting a record? Collect (talk) 12:41, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

I have attempted to address all the prior concerns. That is, it was stated by you that if reliable sources are used, content can remain. I have taken out all votejeff sources, except for two that refer back to specific original writings by Frederick that are posted on his campaign website. If the article is talking about his own words, it seems appropriate to be able to link to those original words, even if they are on his campaign website. A good faith effort has been made, and I am open to addressing any additional concerns. But the wholesale deletion of relevant content, like the fact that his mother is Colombian and that he is currently running for state senate are not irrelevant and are of interest to any reader. I'm reaching out to you for help and assistance -- I want to get this right, by making sure that longtime content on this article remains (most of this content that I seek to restore has been in place for multiple years), but by also ensuring that those things requiring citations are properly referenced. Please help to achieve this goal, while also preventing the persistent vandalism taking place on the Frederick page. Thank you. Vabio1 (talk) 03:00, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Rick Perry BLP Facts vs POV's

--Prose072 (talk) 19:26, 14 September 2011 (UTC)Reverting to enforce certain overriding policies is not considered edit warring. For example, under the policy on biographies of living persons, where negative unsourced content is being introduced, the risk of harm is such that removal is required.

The information on provide is NOT a POV. It is Factual Content and is sourced. If you choose to have an edit war on Factual Sourced content or source-able content I suggest you review the editing rules. When editing on a BLP can be introduced on a specific issue and is source-able content it is NOT a POV therefore it stands andit should not be reverted.

In addition if there is a conflict on an editing issue it should be discussed in the user talk page rather than having an edit war. Reverting a page is against the rules of editing when there is a conflict, instead it should be discussed like adults to have the content reviewed and clearly understood as a source-able or non-source-able edit thereby being a POV on a BLP.

Therefore, I am suggesting we clear this issue on the edit I have inserted and it be reverted back. If you would like me to insert a source, by all means, give me a minute. I have a family to tend too, however, at the statements the I have inserted are a matter of FACT not POV. I happen to like Gov. Perry and have for at least a decade, but that does not change the FACTS ON JOB GROWTH.

Please state your concerns on the issue without a Biased POV. That's what wiki is about Facts not Bias POV's

I suggest you read WP:NPOV, WP:RS and all the other policies you might appear to be eliding. Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:41, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Sourced Data in support of edited Page on discussion that was deleted.

Edit Warring

I suggest you read "WP:EW" redirects here. To report editors who are edit warring, please see the Edit warring noticeboard.

Shortcuts: WP:EW WP:WAR WP:EDITWARRING

Cheers as I will follow up and place my factual information with the source provided as it was inserted prior, however, i will include the source link and the info i pasted above as you have engaged in conduct that is not of the wiki rules stated WP:WW

If you have any objections prior to my edit as it is a Neutral posting, I suggest you comply with the rules, NOT misusing the rules to benefit a bias opinion. I have in good faith made an attempt to resolve the dispute and the unauthorized reversion as the post is sourced and a Neutral Edit not a POV as the user has suggest.

I will allow ample time for user to reply before I continue with said edit as the rules state to do so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Edit_warring — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prose072 (talk • contribs) 20:53, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I will again point out that the proposed edit violates WP:BLP, WP:NPOV etc. Cheers, and I suggest you ask others their opinions before leaping headlong into an ill-chosen fray. Collect (talk) 22:26, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Also read WP:OR and WP:SYNTH noting that the explicit claim must be made by the source, and editors are not allowed to analyse statistics in order to reach some sort of claim. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:28, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I deleted an earlier post as it is a copyright violation per WP:COPYVIO and is removable on sight from any article or talk page. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:36, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Chavez

Please see Talk:Hugo Chávez#External links, as I can't add them myself. 99.50.186.240 (talk) 13:54, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Nice work . . .

. . . on the Paul article. -- Jo3sampl (talk) 02:20, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Johann Hari

Source for where you're saying I said Johann Hari said he committed plagiarism? This is getting silly, isn't it? If you're not acquainted with the facts about Hari, why are you trying to edit his biographical page? Hari has admitted he used other people's work to put together his own articles. That's plagiarism. His admission is cited in the article. Do read it.

But I can see this is going to turn into one of those endlessly pointless wikidiscussions where the point is not to establish the facts and set them down accurately and neutrally, but to uphold a wikibanner of wikiprinciples and slam people who aren't proper wikipedians, which God knows, I never was, being more interested in facts and good writing than in wikiquette. Yonmei (talk) 14:04, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Johann Hari

Source for where you're saying I said Johann Hari said he committed plagiarism? This is getting silly, isn't it? If you're not acquainted with the facts about Hari, why are you trying to edit his biographical page? Hari has admitted he used other people's work to put together his own articles. That's plagiarism. His admission is cited in the article. Do read it.

But I can see this is going to turn into one of those endlessly pointless wikidiscussions where the point is not to establish the facts and set them down accurately and neutrally, but to uphold a wikibanner of wikiprinciples and slam people who aren't proper wikipedians, which God knows, I never was, being more interested in facts and good writing than in wikiquette. Yonmei (talk) 14:06, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

His article of 15 September does not even use the word "plagiarism." Period. Saying he apologized for something he did not apologize for is improper use of sources in a WP:BLP. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:25, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for the multiple sections, do feel free to clean this up. I got an error message and assumed nothing had been left. Yonmei (talk) 16:56, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Hi Collect, looking at the Johann Hari discussions I'm getting a bit confused about the problem with using the word plagiarism. The Independent article clearly says he has admitted plagiarism so why are you arguing that the header should be "accusations of...." when they are seemingly no longer accusations but they have been proven and admitted. By including "accusations" in the header it implies that there is some dispute about whether it happened or not, which there doesn't appear to be any longer. Polequant (talk) 11:29, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

1. The section deals with accusations - not with any admission. 2. Hari has carefully never admitted "plagiarism." 3. WP:BLP states that we must reflect accurately what the reliable sources state - and the sources in that secton deal specifically with the accusations, not with any "admission." 4. When using reliable sources, the content of the source (as opposed to headlines) govern what the claims can state. 5. In his return of the Orwell Prize, Hari does not make any admissions of plagiarism. Nor was the Orwell Prize controversy founded in that - but n the claim that he made up an "atrocity" which did not occur. So since the section with the title "accusations" contains claims about "accusations" then the section title should reflect what the section contains, since the Orwell Prize article was not accused of containing "plagiarism" then that sectin can not be called "plagiarism" and since his actual apology does not contain "plagiarism" at all, we can not state on our own that he "admtted plagiarism" - there is no reason for us to make the charge on our own. The principle on Misplaced Pages is that we do not make conslusions at all, but can only recite what is in the body of reliable sources, especially and specificaly when a "living person" is involved. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:56, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

. I don't get it - this seems pretty clear to me. Or is this not a reliable source? And, please, save the lectures on BLP, I know the policy pretty well thanks. Polequant (talk) 14:01, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

A quick learner with only 78 total edits, to be sure, then. Ascribing words to a person which the person did not say is rather improper. In the case of Hari he at no time and in no place apologized for "plagiarism." Thus saying he did do so would require an actual source saying that. Headlines in a source do not qualify as more than "headlines" and, in many cases, headlines are not borne out by what the source actually says. The Chicago Tribune in 1948 ran a headline "Dewey Defeats Truman" though I doubt it qualifies as a source that Dewey defeated Truman in 1948, Thus the insistence by a number of editors, not just I, that the section title accurately reflect the material in that section, of all things. My positionon BLPs is not affected by political, religious or other beliefs I have or do not have - I uniformly seek the use of WP:BLP in all articles touching on living people. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:16, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Make it about 7000 actually (. It is not just a headline, it is the content of the article (e.g. "Independent Print Limited (IPL), the owner of The Independent, said that Hari had acknowledged embellishing quotations in articles and plagiarism following an examination of evidence by Andreas Whittam Smith") I am really struggling with your line of reasoning here. There are multiple reliable sources saying that he has admitted plagiarism, but it is your opinion that he has not. I was under the impression that sources trumped editors opinions. As it happens I think when he says "When this happened,...I would use those words instead." is an admittance of plagiarism. You clearly disagree. But the sources seem to be with me on this one (, , ) including his own paper. Polequant (talk) 15:31, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Sorry -- did not look up your prior username as it is not shown under "number of edits." Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:45, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

No probs - can we discuss the actual issue rather than willy waving over who knows policies better then? Polequant (talk) 15:52, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

And the material in the section is about the accusations. Cheers, your 79 edits clearly gives you more than sufficient experience on how Misplaced Pages section names are chosen. Collect (talk) 15:42, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Bloody hell, can you not even read, I said I had about 7000 edits (as you can see by the link on my talkpage to my previous account). (e/c)

The header title is a primary one at present, and as such incorporates all of those below it (WP:MOSHEAD). It is supposed to be descriptive of what follows, including what is in sub-sections, which includes his apology and so on. Polequant (talk) 15:51, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Political positions

Hello. I thought you might be interested to contribute to a thread I started at Misplaced Pages:NPOVN#Political_positions_of... Thanks. Jesanj (talk) 04:45, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

In case you did not respond due to potential canvassing concerns, I posted at the talk page of all five people who commented under Misplaced Pages:NPOVN#Political_positions_of_Ron_Paul. I am arguing that all Political positions of... articles violate NPOV through a non-neutral article title which does not encourage multiple viewpoints. I am suggesting we move all of these articles to Politics of... articles. This would end the current problem all these articles have: they encourage editors to find only political positions of the said politician (one viewpoint) even if no notable person or organization has commented on that position. If you have a recommendation about how I can move this conversation along, (am I not in the right venue?) please assist. Thanks. Jesanj (talk) 02:57, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Nazism

There is nothing about ideological origins of Nazism in the text that I removed. If you want to put that text somewhere, you can put it here. I will not revert my own edit, but fell free to revert me if you think that I'm wrong. You can do it one more time this day. Regards.--В и к и T 18:14, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

The material is not in any way biographical about the author - it is about "National Socialism" which does not redirect to the BDP. Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:31, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

3RR warning

Your team has reached 3RR at the Baltic states article with your removal of the tag noting an ongoing dispute on the talk page. I ask you to stop edit warring and discuss your edits first per the rules on edit war. MAke an honest attempt to resolve the dispute before edit warring on the tag. (Igny (talk) 15:20, 24 September 2011 (UTC))

As I have no "team" I suggest your warning is simply snark based on your actual and direct 3RR which occurred. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:46, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

WP:3RR: An editor must not perform more than three reverts. Just passing by. GreyHood 16:05, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Igny hit 3RR in a very short time on the article - I did not. Exceeding 3RR is a "bright line" violation, but the policy does not make it an automatic license to hit 3RR. Collect (talk) 16:12, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Please familiarize yourself with WP:TEAM. (Igny (talk) 16:40, 24 September 2011 (UTC))

Please note that grossly unfounded accusations of tag team may end up in the accuser being sanctioned. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:07, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

I tend to agree. The only thing he did in September was edit warring in several articles . Biophys (talk) 13:49, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you for sorting out the issue on the Pamela Geller page. It was copyright infringement before I sorted it out, but I'll concede that the word cartoons is more appropriate as it does seem more appropriate. NarSakSasLee (talk) 16:47, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

A draft of the AE request

Dear Collect,
I consider a possibility to file the AE request as explained on the MCuCR talk page. However, since the sanctions are not my primary goals, I would like to discuss this draft with you first. I hope it would be useful to look at the issue again. That may help to avoid some negative consequences and to save the arbitrators' time.
Regards.--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:25, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I think the possiblitity that such a request might have a different result or effect than you likely would consider optoimal should weigh heavily. Cheers. Collect (talk) 01:45, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Moved to ANI

Collect. I have moved the recent WQA that you commented on to AN/I per the suggestion of another editor there. I considered reposting the question only, but since both you and MoP were critical of my post, I moved all of it, so as to maintain that criticism in the record. This means, of course, that your answer to me is at AN/I now and I'm informing you of that. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Lionelt_--_following_my_past_edits_to_drum_up_support_against_me Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 20:41, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Edit warring warning report

Hi, you have been reported for edit warring on the Johann Hari/Talk page. Thank you! Yonmei (talk) 18:41, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

RfC/Tenmei

Thank you again for your participation in Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Tenmei.

As it turned out, the RfC was cited as part of an ArbCom findings of fact which explicitly endorsed the complaints of Qwyrxian here and Bobthefish2 here.

• Tenmei and disputes

Although Tenmei was counseled on this issue during the prior case, his manner and style of communications during disputes has not improved. Whether intentional or not, Tenmei's involvement in the current dispute has frustrated involved and uninvolved editors alike, amplifying and prolonging the dispute resolution process.(Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Tenmei (see views by HXL49 and Taemyr); Evidence section "Tenmei", provided by Qwyrxian; )

As remedies, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Senkaku Islands/Proposed decision included:

• Tenmei advised

Tenmei is advised that his unusual style of communication has not been conducive to resolving this dispute. Accordingly, Tenmei is urged to develop a different style of communication, which is more similar to that used by experienced Misplaced Pages editors. Until this happens, Tenmei is advised not to engage in topics which are the subject of a dispute.

• Tenmei banned for one year

In retrospect, I would have preferred you did something different in the RfC. It would have helped me if you and others had argued forcefully that the complainers needed to help me by addressing the direct questions I posted as an initial response:

A. In specific, what could I have done differently at any specific point?

B. In specific, what should I have avoided at any specific point?

C. In specific, how could I have parsed perceived options differently at any specific point?

D. In specific, what unidentified options were overlooked at any specific point?

E. In specific, what worked? What didn't? Why?

F. In specific, what illustrated good judgment? bad judgment?

I explain this now because I hope it will influence your thinking in the future. --Tenmei (talk) 14:43, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Serious concerns

I have serious concerns about . In that Wikiquette response, you appear to focus on content issues - I'm honestly surprised you don't know that the Wikiquette board is not about content - but that's not the real problem. The real problem is that you, in your response to Mathsci suggest that Will do something.

It appears to me that you have confused Mathsci and Will - two editors who are very, very different. There are a number of possible explanations for this - I would appreciate it if you could provide one. Thanks! Hipocrite (talk) 17:46, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I am quite aware of the difference - and the topic was Cla's diffs - which are properly dealt with in that venue. Cheers. Collect (talk) 20:25, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

You wrote "I suggest Will reread the discussions about removing all the Proquest factoids and BLP violations, and act in accord with the clear consensus thereon." Can you explain why you referred to Mathsci as Will, please? Hipocrite (talk) 22:33, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I did not refer to Mathsci as Will -- I referred to Will as Will as he is the one apparently using Proquest to get all the latest factoids. Did you read the discussions thereon? Collect (talk) 23:03, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Why are you suggesting that Will do things about content in a discussion about Mathsci's Wikiquette, exactly? Hipocrite (talk) 08:46, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

If you can not see any intertwining of Mathsci and Will and Cla with regard to the diffs provided, then there is quite little I can do for you. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:11, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

It appears to me that you are engaging in battleground behavior - intertwining your perceived adversaries as one. What can we do to stop that from happening? Hipocrite (talk) 12:02, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

It appears to me that you are the one at a "battleground" here - persisting in finding "enemies under the bed" where none exist <g> Is there any actual reason why you are pursuing this after I gave nice short and explicit answers to your queries? Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:10, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Because I'd like to get you to be a productive contributor to the discussion, or at least to stop driving off productive contributors. It is unhelpful for editors who were specifically asked to step away from protracted disputes to try to drive off other editors who were not involved in those protracted disputes - especially if such attempts are made with the mistaken belief that two editors are the same person. Hipocrite (talk) 12:18, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

I would scarcely have thought my post drove off anyone at all. And since I do not and have never thought that Will and Mathsci are the "same person" nor do any of my edits make any such implication or assertion, I am aghast at your rudeness here. Kindly leave. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:23, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Talk:Mass killings under Communist regimes

Please take a look at Talk:Mass killings under Communist regimes and User:Smallbones/drafts#Listings_in_Manhattan_below_14th_Street and let me know what you think. Smallbones (talk) 01:45, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

EW form requirements:

When folks file an Edit War complaint, the form states specifically:

<!-- Warn the user if you have not already done so. -->

It is unusual for anyone to not notice this specific instruction. I find folks who insist that this is not a specific instruction to be deficient. Cheers. Collect (talk) 01:09, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Anthony Bologna

Hey, why did you unilaterally delete that page? What is your objection to it? If you have an issue with it, you should propose it for deletion, not delete it. PromiseOfNY (talk) 18:44, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Did you miss the discussions at the AfD for the incident article? There is a clear consensus that the entire incident does not merit an article, much less an article on a single police officer as part of the non-notable incident. Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:45, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

anti-Semitism query

Thank you, happy 5772!

Boy, your query is a tough one. This is the perfect example of a basic point well-understood to anyone knowledgeable about hermeneutics 9and I am not trying to talk down to you, just making explicit my own frame of reference): unambiguous words often do not convey unambiguous meaning, because their meaning depends on the context. In this case the sequence of edits is not sufficient context, that is why you need to ask for my interpretation. The fact is, I think that in this case one would actually need to know the kinds of things which are usually unverifiable at Misplaced Pages: Paul Seibert's religion, relations with Jews, his view about communists, his views about people who do not like communists, his (if he actually is a he) life history, his personality. I do not think there is anyway to know the answer to your question with any confidence without knowing all these other things.

The immediate question here is: was this editor being sarcastic?

The problem is that there probably are many WP editors who are anti-Semitic, some mildly, some in the rabid Stormfront neo-Nazi way. These people, like Hitler, may well identify Jews with Bolshevism and really believe that the blood libels were true. Such a person would make this comment in seriousness. Perhaps your experiences at WP make you lean in this direction.

But if I knew that the person making the comment was either generally sympathetic to communism, or highly skeptical of red-bashers (and the two do not go hand-in-hand ... in the US the reaction against McCarthyism was not driven by communists but rather by people who did not like communism but who disliked even more people who used the fear of communists as a cover to persecute non-communists), and if I knew that this person is Jewish, or has demonstrated through his life and relationships with others a genuine sympathy for victims of anti-Semitism, I would immediately interpret the comment as sarcastic. In fact, given the conditions I just specified, I would probably expect the person to make this kind of comment!! Perhaps Greyhood's experiences with Paul Siebert lead him in this direction.

That is my diagnosis of the problem. Now, I would not have made the comment you made, even though it was certainly well-intentioned. If the user making the comment were an anonymous IP, I would have checked the IP contributions to see if this IP had made other anti-Jewish or anti-Semitic comments or edits. Often times though an IP has made only on or a few edits. In that case, I would have asked the anonymous user if she is serious. In my experience, most anonymous editors are not anti-Semitic but most anti-Semites hide behind anonymity, and if the user is anonymous I would be immediately suspicious but still ask for clarification. A real anti-Semite would not back-peddle!

In this case the user is named. I have known several named editors at WP who are anti-Semitic and the obvious ones (ones who might make this comment in all seriousness) are banned. But I know many more named editors who are not anti-Semitic which does not mean I would immdiately assume th best, but I would take even more time to try to figure things out before making an accusation (and you know my view about anti-Semites: calling someone an anti-Semite is not "incivil" if they have actually made an anti-Semitic comment; making anti-Semitic comments is worse than accusing someone of anti-Semitism; anti-semites should be banned, incivil people should be tolerated. But before accusing someone of anti-Semitism I would want more evidence because intention is an issue, especially when a comment can be read different ways). The user thus has a well-established record of edits and I would definitely check to see what articles the person has edited and look at her user page and look at some past edits. In this specific case, I would certainly have asked if the user were serious.

You didn't, but in this case I am sure that if you had Paul would have given a similar (but perhaps gentler) reply, that she is quoting a novel. I don't know the novel and I would have asked (in as neutral a tone as possible) to share the name of the novel with me. If I could verify that this is a quote from a novel, I would be inclined to accept the interpretation that the user was making a sarcastic joke.

Now, since context is often everything and is certainly very important in this case, I will tell you what I think is the eal issue is and if you think I am off-base you can tell me to go shove it.

I think the question of a "red Holocaust" is much more contentious than that of the Holocaust. It is not contentious because of the "facts on the ground" - only an idiot would deny the extraordinary numbers of civilian deaths under Stalin (or Pol Pot), including deaths through deliberate campaigns. It is contentious because many of these facts are open to interpretation (not that they happened, but why exactly); because many Jews consider the Jewish Holocaust a unique event in history and are offended by people who compare it (in nature, not in severity) to other times and places where huge numbers of civilians were murdered ... or, they might not be offended by comparing it to other cases of genocide by which I mean the attempt to eliminate an entire race, ethnic group, or nation, but might be offended by comparing it to mass-murder that had another basis; and finally, because in many countries there are legal communist parties that have no history of genocide and it matters not only to members of these parties but even to many of their political opponents that these parties not only should be tolerated, they should be legally protected, whereas explicitly fascist parties are illegal and not tolerated ... such people might be concerned that an article on a red Holocaust is an attempt to discredit communism in general (rather than Stalin and Pol Pot) and thus threaten the legal standing of their party. Any editor who falls somewhere within this space might be very angry about the wording, or, if the person is not of a choleric temperment, might simply wish to mock it.

You may not be consider any of the reasons I just gave as reasonable, and you may not consider the above position acceptable. If you don't, you will find it much, much harder to assume good faith on the part of any editor who is critical of this article. You might even find it hard to believe that otherwise reasonable editors would not only disagree with the wording of the lead but would be profoundly offended by, and deeply concerned about it. If so, it might be hard for you to recognize a mocking or sarcastic response.

I think Paul was responding to this: "These mass killings are known as the Red Holocaust, mirroring the Holocaust in Nazi Germany." I know intelligent people who would agree with this claim. I also know intelligent people who would consider it absurd on its face. Of the people who consider it absurd on its face I cannot say for sure how they would respond were they WP editors but my guess is that they would consider the anon. editor who wrote this to be either an idiot, or deliberately provocative, and this would color their response.

(Speaking personally: I have not heard of the phrase "Red Holocaust" and I have only heard non-communists use the word "Red" in derogatory ways, making the term in my view non-encyclopedic, non-neutral. If there are people who (1) call these "Red Holocausts" and among these people some or many who (2) further liken it to the Nazi Holocaust, well, then of course it should be said so in the article - but the view would have to be attributed to someone through reliable sources and some effort has to be made to determine whether it is a minority view or majority view among historians and political scientists, or among citizens of Russia, Ukraine, China, etc. Speaking solely as a WP editor my sense is that this discussion would belong in the body not the lead. I certainly think that the text Paul was responding to is poorly written for an encyclopedia; there really is a lively debate among scholars as to whether this laundry-list of means of persecution all had the same cause and reflect a deliberate pattern, and also whether or in what way this can be likened to what the Nazis did)

If Paul replied to my question that she is joking or being sarcastic and is criticizing the lead and quoting a novel, and if I personally believe that there was a "Red Holocaust," I would say that the real question to ask Paul is, can he explain his objections in a non-sarcastic and more specific form. I would try to have a good faith and reasonable debate with him about the lead where we rely on reliable sources and WP policy to decide how to introduce the article and try to bracket my own political views and feelings and ask Paul to do the same.

It is still possible that Paul is an anti-Semite but from the way the discussion unfolded personally I suspect he isn't. I think it is really important to find out the name of the novel and who wrote it - obviously h is alluding to the novel and if the novel is generally considered anti-Semitic, then his alluding to it may be a sign of anti-Semitism, but if the novel is generally considered serious literature (or even written by a Jew!!) then I really would abandon any suspicions about Paul and anti-Semitism.

If I reached this point in a conversation with Paul, at most this is what I would do: I would write a note on his user page (definitely not the article talk page) saying that I do not think he is anti-Semitic but he has to understand that of the million or more people who read Misplaced Pages, there re a great many who would not recognize that she is being sarcastic and would not be familiar with the novel. I would point out that this comment could just as easily be offensive as it could be funny and that it all depends on the context. I would point out that the problem with WP is that we usually do not have enough of the right context to interpret these kinds of remarks correctly. I would ask Paul to consider that, given the nature of Misplaced Pages — that the typical reader of this article talk page does not know Paul personally, does not know her sense of humor, does not know that she is Jewish or is a gentile who has always spoken out decisively against anti-Semitism — she has to take into account the likelihood that many readers will misinterpret her remark and he intentions, and that the problem is not that she is anti-Semitic but that under these conditions, making these kinds of statements is terribly insensitive. You could suggest that if she really feels that the appropriate response to the proposed text, given the last sentence which Paul might find offensive, is simply to take a little bit more care to express herself clearly, for example writing something like this: "you forgot to mention the well known habit of "jewish bolshevik cossacks" to drink Christian infants' blood, as novelist X wrote. X was mocking (blah blah blah) and I think that vague and unattributed claims like "These mass killings are known as the Red Holocaust, mirroring the Holocaust in Nazi Germany" are so offensive that the only response I have is to mock them too." This kind of message shows Paul how she can write in a much more sensitive way that would spare the feelings of any Jewish editors who are not as well-read as Paul, and would in fact make his point to the anonymous reader even more strongly.

Best, Slrubenstein | Talk 06:30, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

PS. any time an editor is using sarcasm, consider using this link/essay Misplaced Pages:Sarcasm is really helpful as a point of reference. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:15, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

• Just in case all you haven't understand the double oxymoron: real Cossacks were anti-Bolsheviks and were ethnically Russian/Ukrainian. Hence Bolshevik Cossacks and Jewish Cossacks are nonsense, and no any anti-Semitism here. Cheers! GreyHood 11:40, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I fear you did not know some of the background wherein Paul et al insisted all the new anti-communism is founded in anti-semitism. 'This reasoning has been described as a new form of anti-semitism" TFD (talk) 23:39, 21 November 2010 (UTC), out) I am pointing out the inherent anti-Semitism in the point of view you are pushing. TFD (talk) 04:52, 14 October 2010 (UTC) showing TFD's explicit accusation of anti-semitism on the part of other editors. This new thinking, which is especially popular in Ukraine, Poland and the Baltic states, where Communism is associated with Jewry, has been to diminish the significance of the Holocaust, with the Holodomor presented as a crime of equal magnitude. This reasoning has been described as a new form of anti-semitism. --Paul Siebert (talk) 16:49, 7 September 2010 (UTC) Also showing Paul; explicitly using "anti-semitism" as a charge against those who ascribe killings to communist regimes. Not referring to any novel at all -- but explicitly making a charge of "anti-semitism" . I suggest you read some of those past discussions. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:51, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

None of what you now say is relevant in the last. it was you asking whether something that he wrote is antisemitic. You didn't ask me if it is true that much current anti-communism is tied to anti-semitism. It wouldn't surprise me if it is, but this is a simple matter of seeing what the reliable sources say. I have no opinion and of course neither do you; we editors do not put our own opinions in the article, we look for what reliable sources (in this cases experts on the history, culure, and politics of the former Soviet union) have to say. You asked me if his comment is anti-Semitic and rereading his comment in light of what you just told me I would say that the answer is "no." I am surprised that you would think it an anti-semitic comment, given the context as you have explained it to me. How strange. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:27, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

And you splendidly answered my query. Another editor, as you may note, leapt in, and I rather think that called for more exposition that heretofore. The query,moreover, was not whether the remark per se was anti-semitic, but whether it was used to impute anti-semitism to other editors, which I regretfully feel it did. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:36, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I am glad I could help. Anyway, it is pretty clear to me that the comment is implying an unreasonable bias against "reds" on the part of the anonymous editor, not Jews. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:58, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

As to the second claim that all Cossacks were anti-Bolshevik -- that is belied by , thus such a group certainly did exist. Ditto the existence of "Jewish cossacks" per , etc. It is amazing how often absolute statements turn out to be errant. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:57, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

En masse these statements are right, and that's enough for humour, especially in the context. Don't know about the old discussions but anyway trying to find the anti-semitism in this phrase, which is more about Cossacks than Jews, reminds me of a Russian language meme translated as "If there is any anti-semitism here?". GreyHood 12:25, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

The issue on that talk page has been iterated claims that some editors are anti-communist therefore anti-semitic. TFD has, indeed, made such claims. (out) I am pointing out the inherent anti-Semitism in the point of view you are pushing. TFD (talk) 04:52, 14 October 2010 (UTC) for example. I trust you find that one an explicit accusation? Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:32, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps the meme could be applied to TFD's question as well. I'm not interested in digging old discussions where I haven't taken part in, but hope I've made myself clear about the joke. GreyHood 12:40, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Hence the query, and thoughtful response by Slrubenstein, as to whether it truly was joci causa or was a sideways attack at an IP editor. The charge "anti-semitism" has been bandied lightly on that article talk page, and I am rather getting tired of it. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:47, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Collect, I presented several sources that comment on some of the sources used for Communist-related articles. Much of it reflects what slrubenstein said, many Jews are offended by the comparison ot the Holocaust to other mass killings, and anti-Communism has been used to attack non-Communists and Communists who have no connection with Stalinist crimes. Another issue is that it is used in disputes between different national groups in Eastern Europe. Also, the external link we discussed is owned by a group set up by the World Anti-Communist League, which is a controversial organization. While we are all free to believe whatever we wish, we must accept the controversial nature of the analyses used in these articles. TFD (talk)

Your quote stands for itself. The accusation that anti-communists are therefore anti-semites holds no water, and when made as an accusation of another editor is uncivil. Nor did the EL enter into any of this discussion here, so I am a tad bemused by your apparent assertion that the group you mention is specifically "anti-semitic." Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:03, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

The sources do not say that "anti-communists (sic) are therefore anti-semites", but that some anti-Communists are anti-semitic. That is actually clear in the article about the World Anti-Communist League which was criticized by the Anti-Defamation League for including anti-Semites such as Ron Gostick and Paul Fromm. TFD (talk) 16:42, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

All well and good - but out) I am pointing out the inherent anti-Semitism in the point of view you are pushing. TFD (talk) 04:52, 14 October 2010 (UTC) seems quite clear as to your own POV. "INHERENT ANTI-SEMITISM was a strong charge for you to make. I rather think almost any group can have "anti-semites" in it (including some groups of Jews, I rather suppose), but to aver that the mere fact of "anti-communism" is INHERENTLY ANTI-SEMITIC was a reach. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:51, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I have noticed through my interactions with you that you have a strong aversion to anti-Semitism and wish you would read the sources I provided. TFD (talk) 17:30, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I abhor anti-semitism, and I abhor improperly charging anyone with being anti-semitic who is not an anti-semite. Your quote above stands on its own, as well as your position here that if a group has anti-semites in it, that therefore the entire group can be labelled as anti-semitic. I assure you that this is an abuse of a word which applies to a real problem in this world. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:39, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

The Last Angry Man and other editors with whom you agree on the anti-Communism articles make those arguments on articles about the British National Party and other far-right organizations. TFD (talk) 00:06, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

As I have made remarkably few edits on "anti-Communism articles" and certainly am not allied with any group of editors thereon, I wonder just what sort of point you think you are making. I do, however, think the "left right spectrum" has significant problems - do you associate that position with anti-Semitism in some way? Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:57, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with the political spectrum. People who promote racist views are called the "far right". It could be they are actually left-wing, centrist, or outside the political spectrum, or the political spectrum could be meaningless, but that is what they are called. If you prefer, we could call it "identity politics". TFD (talk) 01:16, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Amazingly enough, people on the "far left" can also be "racists." A splendid example of why using a "left right spectrum" is fatuous. Cheers. Collect (talk) 02:21, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

You are missing the point. There is a group of ideologies commonly called, for want of a better term, the far right, which includes neo-nazis, skinheads, Klansmen, etc. Where they fit on the political spectrum is irrelevant, that is what they are commonly called. If you have another name for them, such as identity politics, then I am fine with using that term. TFD (talk) 02:42, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

What you state is that the "far right" is not actually on the "right" of a "left right spectrum" which means then clearly that the "left right spectrum" is meaningless as to "left" and "right" and is pretty thoroughly useless. Your semantic argument is wondrously clear. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:25, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I did not say where it actually is. It may be a misnomer, but it is the term normally used. Koala bears for example are not bears, but that does not mean we cannot use the term. TFD (talk) 14:47, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Where a term is exceedingly misleading, I tend not to use the term, and to suggest that use of the term is less than helpful. I refer to "Koalas" and not to "koala bears" and so do most people who actually have dealt with them in any way at all. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:24, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Well I have never dealt with koalas. Your objection to the left-right political spectrum is noted. Do you have an alternative name for "far right"? TFD (talk) 15:48, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

How about we just call "racists" "racist"? I rather think that would be both accurate and straightforward. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:34, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

bad nom IMO

You were correct, I closed the debate, would you be good enough to ensure it has been done correctly please? The Last Angry Man (talk) 20:53, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

proposed changes in lead of 1953 Iran coup article

I'm polling editors active in the 1953 Iranian coup article on the issue of adding a short subsection titled ’Iranian coup supporters’ since the article has no mention on why they opposed Mosaddeq other than being bribed to do so.

Iranian coup supporters

Iranian opponents of Mosaddeq have been described as including "religious leaders and preachers and their followers, as well as landlords and provincial magnates"; "conservative politicians such as prime ministers Ahmad Qavam and General Ali Razmara .... and commanders of the military, most notably General Fazlollah Zahedi ... led by the Shah." They have been described as forces that would "have been crippled without substantial British and later U.S. support," while authors Ali Gheissari, Seyyed Vali Reza Nasr say "it would be mistaken to view the coup as entirely a foreign instigation with no support" in Iran.

Observers differ on the opponents motivation for supporting the coup. Mark J. Gasiorowski describes them as "very ambitious and opportunistic." Another author calls Mosaddeq's Iranian opponents elites "determined to retrieve their endangered interests and influence, and unconcerned with the lasting damage to Iranian patriotic sensibilities and democratic aspirations." Money was involved with the US CIA paying out $150,000 after March 1953 to "journalists, editors, preachers, and opinion members", giving Zahedi $135,000 to "win additional friends", and paying members of the majlis $11,000 a week.

Other authors (Ali Gheissari, Seyyed Vali Reza Nasr) describe the opponents as agreeing with Mosaddeq that the "British position was unjust and illegal," but believing that after the 1946 attempt by the Soviets to separate Azerbaijan and Kurdistan from Iran, "Iran's interests lay in close ties with the West to ward off the Soviet threat."government of Iranian Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh organized by the intelligence agencies of the United Kingdom and the United States. --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:55, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

On "the" and "his" of Mark Twain

At the beginning of Mark Twain, I noticed you changed to "...better known as his pen name Mark Twain...". Could you explain why, as we don't see the difference? --Sateros (talk) 02:01, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Likely "by his pen name" would work as well. Collect (talk) 21:57, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Ed Witten

Nice work on the Ed Witten article. Sometimes removing information can be as useful as adding. SocratesJedi | Talk 03:58, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

See the Joseph Widney article. Collect (talk) 12:11, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

AE

Since you refused to self-revert, and the 48 hour period has expired, I had to take some actions. See this . --Paul Siebert (talk) 02:53, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Refactor please

I suggest you remove your statement about SPIs. I have been targeted on SPI by a number of now indefinitely banned users,. Mathsci (talk) 01:03, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

As have I - including several CUs etc. Cheers. I take accusations that I somehow am backing a "sock" quite seriously. Collect (talk) 01:12, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

1. Gasiorowski, Mosaddeq, (chapter by Katouzian) p.20
2. ^ (p.53, Democracy in Iran: history and the quest for liberty, By Ali Gheissari, Seyyed Vali Reza Nasr, Oxford University Press, 2006
3. Azimi, in Gasiorowski, Mosaddeq, p.29
4. Democracy in Iran: history and the quest for liberty, By Ali Gheissari, Seyyed Vali Reza Nasr, Oxford University Press, 2006, p.54
5. Gasiorowski in Gasiorowski, Mosaddeq, p.243-4
6. Fakhreddin Azimi in Gasiorowski, Mosaddeq, p.89
7. Overthrow: America's Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq By Stephen Kinzer, Macmillan, 2007, p.123
8. Kinzer, All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror (John Wiley & Sons, 2003), p.166