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Archives

Archive1, Archive 2

Blanket Reverting

Earl King why are you blanket reverting edits? Are you reviewing the changes I have made? Your blanket reverts also reverse many minor edits that can't possibly be questioned on the basis of neutrality. Please stop being lazy and blanket reverting. If you have a problem with a change I made, then rationally address that particular change. Otherwise it will be taken up on a noticeboard indicting you for interfering with productive editing. Your approach is not facilitating constructive cooperation but rather blunt, stagnant, destructive confrontation with other editors.--Biophily (talk) 03:46, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

You are not a neutral editor. That has proven out in the past on this subject. You are involved in the promotion as in advertising of Fresco, you have interviewed him and are an active participant in his groups etc. in a very public way You have a You-tube channel devoted to him. You are watering down or sugar coating information in the past from cited material, removing neutrality aspects and now just reintroducing those edits again formatting them slightly differently. I am not saying to recluse yourself from this subject. I am saying it is paramount that a member of Fresco's fan club or what ever it is that you are promoting not put non neutral edits in because if you change the spin as in tone even to make it pro Fresco then you are in a conflict of interest. Earl King Jr. (talk) 05:41, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

You are clinging to a hopeless exaggeration to get your way. Please stop the nonsense. It is counterproductive.--Biophily (talk) 09:00, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

It is obvious that you are a single purpose editor The article Venus Project and Jacque Fresco were disasters previously and are barely o.k. now and it has been difficult for neutral editors to improve them because of Fresco's fan base and he is controversial and people get emotional. Before the were absolutely bad. You are involved media wise with Fresco and Venus Project or were, it is above in the link in black and white in a previous post in this thread, so you are in a conflict of interest that shows. Feel free to fix the typos etc., but sugar coating information and taking neutrality out of the article as before, is not a good idea. All anyone has to do is look at the article page history to see how atrocious it was previously, say 9 months ago. Being a single purpose editor is not a big thing. You are a single purpose editor on Misplaced Pages and making information conform to Fresco standards is a bad idea, though now with others editing the article finally it is better. Earl King Jr. (talk) 10:55, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Have you considered that you are non-neutral in the other direction? as well as a single purpose editor yourself? Is that why you say single purpose editing is not big deal? because you yourself are one? We have been over these issues before. I applaud the neutrality correction. But my recent edits are not related to that.--Biophily (talk) 13:58, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

That is not so and misrepresenting things in an argument or discussion does not win favor for you. I edit a variety of articles and have created articles also. Looking at your edit history you edit a couple of things. All related to your interest and participation in the Fresco material. Not being honest on that wins no vote here. Single purpose editor is just a term not a pejorative. You qualify 100% for that because you edit nothing else. Given the past dysfunction of the article because of non neutral editing, it becomes a point of reference now because of your style and past record. Earl King Jr. (talk) 00:49, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I never denied being a single purpose editor. So far I have stuck with this issue, and when I have fully exhausted the research I can do, I will be moving into other related areas. But lets not forget that in the beginning you approached swinging swords. Let's not pretend that the majority of your edits aren't dedicated to editing against primarily Zeitgeist material and Venus Project material, and edits favorable to Technocratic material. It is utterly obvious so enough with the innocence game. Indeed, I agree the former two subjects do need to be monitored as you are doing, however, perhaps in response to the constant non-neutrality of naive editors, you overreact against edits that are perfectly benign, perhaps even further oversensative to any edit at all that adds or alters information, perceiving it as non-neutral, as in the case of my recent edit. Someone has lost their perspective. Don't mean to dwell on this, but this is a legitimate issue not to be ignored.--Biophily (talk) 13:03, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Just think about what you are doing. The two articles under your tutorial leadership were not neutral. Now they are not half bad. Lets keep the articles above board in regard to special interest groups. Earl King Jr. (talk) 23:04, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Regarding Multiple Citations

Earl King, the reasoning for the multiple sources are as follows: since some of the statements could be considered contentious, especially the "twenty years ahead of his time" statement, doubling or tripling sources seemed necessary, to show that it has due weight and was written by more than one author during that era. Deleting decent sources that support this is not an improvement. But if you are willing to forget the high standard, that's up to you.--Biophily (talk) 21:16, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Doubtful. High standards like that U.f.o. Scully book was later proven some fraud scam? It should not even be a source or used as a citation in the article. Also the multiple sourcing to one or two things, his friends, that wrote about him Katran and the other, that is being over used. The reason that there are so many sources is because a previous editor here now prohibited from this article went absolutely hog wild posting sources, sometimes 6 or 8 for something, most of those are now removed. Having two sources for things does not really make sense. Either a source is good or not. Having two or three or four sources? No.

Also, having all those citation references tied together in long chains does not make a lot of sense either. Other articles are not put together like that. They can all be removed to get to the actual citation that is a reference point for something without wading through long series of 6, 7,, 8 references tied together.

Why perpetuate that Fresco was a Doctor, a Behaviorist and a psychologist when he was none of those things. Makes the citations very confusing to perpetuate those untruths in the article. Maybe it is an historic piece that just confirms that he lied about his credentials. It should not be in the article unless we want a section or area about him exaggerating his education, which in all fairness he lied about or perpetuated the myth that he was a doctor. He did nothing to distance himself in his introduction as being a doctor on the Larry King Show either. Earl King Jr. (talk) 08:51, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Apparently you don't understand what the Scully "scam" was all about. Scully didn't pull a fraud scam. People pulled a scam on him to promote themselves. But that is not relevant to the section concerning Fresco.

Saying that some sources are "used to much" isn't good enough. Can you please cite policy to give basis to your disapproval?

Multiple sources are required when a claim is exceptional or likely to be disputed WP:EXCEPTIONAL.

• "Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources."

Multiple citations in the article seem to be applied correctly in regard to this principle. It is actually quite common as evidenced here in policy: WP:CITEBUNDLE.

Your preference to change the citation style is actually in violation of WP:CITEVAR.

• "Editors should not attempt to change an article's established citation style merely on the grounds of personal preference, to make it match other articles, or without first seeking consensus for the change. If the article you are editing is already using a particular citation style, you should follow it; if you believe it is inappropriate for the needs of the article, seek consensus for a change on the talk page. As with spelling differences, if there is disagreement about which style is best, defer to the style used by the first major contributor."

The style appears very competent and thorough. It is precise and transparent so the reader can view what the source stated without having to open new pages. It seems very honest to me; convenient as well. It also helps because not all of the sources are easily accessible without extensive searching offline.

• "A footnote may also contain a relevant exact quotation from the source, if this may be of interest (this is particularly useful if the source is not easily accessible)." see .

Furthermore, the templates for proper citation formats have an option for including quotes. I suspect you might not understand the citation style. Each of the bulleted quotes in the citation with supererscript notations (using alphabetic letters) corresponds to the location in the article where that quote is referenced. However, all of your deletions (without maintenance to the citation's order of notations) likely has thrown the citations, notations, and the quotes out of order, which has been a concern of mine from the beginning of your editing. Some of your citation deletions are near vandalism by the way. They are not improvements. I'm sorry the style is confusing to you. I remember some time ago when there was a public feedback tool at the bottom of the page, the article was receiving quite high ratings, always at least 4 out of 5 in each category. Though I don't know how valid that feedback tool was.

Anyway, I am concerned because seldom do you cite or even mention policy to justify the changes you make. Rather you appear to base it on personal preference.--Biophily (talk) 07:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I do agree that any perpetuation of notions related to Fresco as a Dr. should cease. However such citations can still be used if a is used in the quote to indicate the error of the author. --Biophily (talk) 07:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

The style appears very competent and thorough. It is precise and transparent so the reader can view what the source stated without having to open new pages. It seems very honest to me; convenient as well. The style is annoying as in over groomed and tying all those things together in a long chain is confusing. A lot of the so called style as you say, is gone now due to neutral editing. It was truly an awful article a few months ago. It is still annoying because of having to wade through long script of unconnected material to something becoming cited. You wrote the article previously and it was groomed to the point of absurdity. Now most of it is better but I wish you would stop and think about your role as a single purpose editor that is an advocate of J. Fresco, trying to control content on Misplaced Pages and connected with Fresco media persons. You just bounce back and back making the same edits and it is not in the interest of neutral presentation, your role as whitewashing and making happy talk and watering down information. You removed his Klan participation recently. Earl King Jr. (talk) 17:02, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Earl King do you notice that whenever you argue a point, you refer only to your personal reaction? Saying it is annoying or confusing has nothing to do with the Policy standards which you should be using in your arguments. This method of debate hinders us resolving problems. Nothing in the format and style of the citations violates policy in any way at all.--Biophily (talk) 01:19, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, the KKK claims were removed and never should have been included. The claim is entirely self serving to Fresco and fails all the criteria for self published usage.

Though you believe you have improved the article by deleting sections of the citations, all it really suggests is you have no respect for the article. The reckless and sloppy editing that you do is creating a mess in the references and ultimately ruining the clean and ordered high standard. Please learn how to treat articles and their subject matter with respect.--Biophily (talk) 01:09, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Earl King doesn't know competence when he sees it.--129.237.134.89 (talk) 18:52, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

It would be helpful if you could log back in to your account. bobrayner (talk) 23:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Some more problems

Biophily,
You have uploaded various images of Fresco's work whilst claiming that you hold the copyright. If your claims are true, then you should stop editing the article, due to WP:COI. If your claims are not true, then we should stop using content that you have uploaded, due to copyright problems. Which problem do we need to address here? bobrayner (talk) 23:14, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure how it is conflict of interest. Could you explain?--Biophily (talk) 00:37, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Not sure on that but am sure that you and Fresco know each other personally and you are connected or were to Venus Project Media director. Is that where you got the pictures? Also removing the Ku Klux Klan information saying that it is a self serving primary source? If that were true half the article would have to be removed because it is sourced back to Fresco. Ostensibly you are a part of Fresco's organization or at least have interviewed and published an interview you did with him. Not an issue if you were a neutral editor but that is where the problem arises Earl King Jr. (talk) 01:21, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Again with the exaggerated, bad faith, presumptive accusations.

See end of above section for comments on KKK issue.

Those images were acquired as part of personal research outside of Fresco and his organization. There are people out there that have Fresco material from past decades. It is very hilarious that some believe thorough and competent research involves pittlilng around on a computer from a distance. I am out in the world researching this subject, talking with people and organizations for clues, digging through archives and libraries to find sources, and citing that which is citable in the article. Detail regarding the image has been given on the noticeboard, where appropriate.--Biophily (talk) 01:46, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Do you own the copyright on those various images of Fresco's work? Yes or no? If it's a "Yes" across the board, then the only sane explanation is that you are Fresco or his agent, in which case WP:COI explains why this promotional editing must stop now. However, I think it's more likely that the answer is "no", in which case I will remove the copyright violations. bobrayner (talk) 02:02, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Not on all of the images uploaded in the link that you provided. However, how do I prove it for those that I do?

Sane explanation? How can you say that?

However, in thinking about the issue, it occurs to me that the inclusion of those images for which I do have the rights, may constitute original research perhaps? As I think about I realize I have never read anything on what justifies the connection between an image and the subject. In other words, how do I even prove that the device is Fresco's? Can someone advise me on this point?

Regarding your later statement: No one has yet explained to me in the terminology of policy how my editing is promotional. I would so much appreciate it if someone would. So far, it has been claimed but never substantiated. Opinions upon opinions without reference to specific elements of my alleged violation. Reluctantly it leads me to believe that such claims are arising out of a general dislike for the subject. I realize this may be further worsened because I show respect for the subject matter and take it seriously (as with all research), which is apparently bothersome primarily to one other editor.--Biophily (talk) 02:38, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Which images do you own, and which did you copy from elsewhere? bobrayner (talk) 02:56, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

For these I can say without complication that I own the rights (though I did acquire others, I realize I probably can't claim ownership due to their content type):

• File:Jacque Fresco - 3D Projector.jpg
• File:Jacque Fresco - Trend Home Exterior (1947).jpg
• File:Jacque Fresco - Scientific Research Laboratories at 1300 Douglas St. (1940s).jpg

--Biophily (talk) 03:17, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Biophily, I know you think you are clear in your presentation of things but your speech here is similar to how you wrote things in the article, circular. Could you just answer the simple question? Where did you get those pictures, and now you are saying the 3d projector may not be connected to Fresco at all? Your connections with Fresco are part of acquiring the picture I assume. When you interviewed Fresco for the video of you and he, for your Fresco presentation YouTube channel, did his media representative give this type of material to you. Really have to assume you received the material from the Venus Project since you have spent time with that organization. This again speaks of major conflict of interest because of your editing style. Examples? Just look at what the article looked like a year ago and that is example enough of your over grooming and information spin. Earl King Jr. (talk) 05:38, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I know from the outside it may look difficult to interpret and people are left to assume as you have. Those images were not received from the subject in question. If you are familiar enough with their activities as evidenced in online sources, you'll find that they are actually quite protective of their materials. The photos in question were received from primarily one person who knew Fresco many years ago. Chester Phoebus is the photographer of those photos. As part of my research I have contacted many people like this to track down sources and materials.--Biophily (talk) 17:13, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Orlando Weekly article

Relying heavily on that Orlando Weekly article is not a good idea. Not only are there original publications from the time periods covered in the Orlando Weekly article, that are better to use due to their proximity to the actual events, the Orlando Weekly article used information from Misplaced Pages in several instances at the time it was written, especially regarding the Trend Home. Heavily using sources that use Misplaced Pages as a source is discouraged on Misplaced Pages WP:CIRCULAR. However, I see that it is being relied upon heavily, especially with the recent rewrite of the Trend Home section by Earl King, who takes info from the Orlando Weekly article exclusively.--Biophily (talk) 22:57, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

(information for citations is provided. Do not over 'citation needed' tag to make some abstract point which is not taken. Sourced info. to a good source is there now. Doubtful it is sourced to Misplaced Pages or if so prove it. The mass of confused sources previously was utterly ridiculous all entwined on each other so it was nearly impossible to read. The basic information is there now and basic sourcing. Earl King Jr. (talk) 23:11, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

"The mass of confused sources previously was utterly ridiculous all entwined on each other so it was nearly impossible to read." I simply disagree. I'm sorry it was too complicated for you. But it perfectly accorded with competent, meticulous, precise sourcing. You however seem to want to reduce the quality of sources according to a very low standard. It makes the article and Misplaced Pages look like a joke to anyone competent in research and scholarship.

You may consult WP:CITE to review the fact that Misplaced Pages advises and encourages to cite sources as much as possible wherever possible.

• "Misplaced Pages's Verifiability policy requires inline citations for any material challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations, anywhere in article space. However, editors are advised to provide citations for all material added to Misplaced Pages; any unsourced material risks being unexpectedly challenged or eventually removed."

Please take proper care in editing the article according to a high standard. This means proper formal (academic) citation format, and citations for specific information.--Biophily (talk) 23:18, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

The section I redid is sourced. tagging it excessively with citation needed does not make sense. You also removed some of the main information about Fresco and career success etc. As a promoter and researcher and point person for Venus Project you have to be particularly careful. The confused sources were not available to look at either before. Mostly it was sourced to a couple of things not available for scrutiny. Do not interrupt Misplaced Pages to make a point especially when the point is not taken, like adding multiple tags when it is sourced information. Your citation needed tags need to be removed since the information is sourced to a reliable source. Earl King Jr. (talk) 23:33, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

I fixed the issue after seeing that you won't. Technically, proper sourcing requires a citation after the first sentence of each new paragraph, if all the sentences in each paragraph use the same source. If there is a second source used somewhere in a paragraph, then the sentences following it that use the first source must again be given a citation to the first source to prevent confusion. I fixed the problem by assuming you attribute all of that information to the Orlando Weekly article, that really shouldn't be used for that section due to its interaction with Misplaced Pages when it was written. I know because I was around when the article first came out and saw how it directly reflected the info on Misplaced Pages. Not only that, but the article refers to the Jacque Fresco wikipedia article.

That the previous sources were not available for scrutiny is not an argument you can give. Misplaced Pages policy does not forbid the use of offline sources or sources behind a paywall online. In fact, some of the best sources are not online. It is up to your motivation and competence as an editor to examine these sources. Isn't this precisely how all books and physical publication have worked since the beginning of printed word? See: WP:SOURCEACCESS--Biophily (talk) 23:48, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Furthermore, it seems as if you are integrating too much of the author's views into that section when speaking of successes and failure. 'Perhaps he came closest to traditional career success" is a evaluative judgement of the author and cannot be in the voice of a wikipedia editor, unless the author is quoted saying that.--Biophily (talk) 23:58, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Thats why the perhaps is in there. It comes from the interpretation of a legitimate source from an author making a value judgement and that is what the citation reflects. That section is now readable. A new citation was added also from the actual brochure to point out inaccuracies previously. Fresco has never actually had anything built in the real world, though building a building on a Hollywood set is an accomplishment. The inference now that his project met with success is more accurate reflecting what happened. Fresco buildings have never existed anywhere except on his small ranch, so probably if the funding had gone through in the forties he would actually have made some money perhaps and actually would have been notable for designing something that was lived in instead of just making his drawings speculating. Earl King Jr. (talk) 01:45, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, the statement in the article fails to be neutral. I enjoyed reading your statements and their underlying pretense that you have done in depth research and know about whether the Trend Home was built or not, even though you haven't. Cheers!--Biophily (talk) 03:21, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

By the way, if your claims above were in any way influenced by Gazecki's claims in the Orlando Weekly article, please reconsider. Gazecki was a lousy and lazy researcher, finding maybe 25% of the materials available on Fresco.

Also, consider not basing your notions of success solely on the status of a man as businessman.--Biophily (talk) 03:28, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Fresco and having a degree

What is the best way to use the information that Fresco perhaps misled/lied in interviews about a degree? This is one example in link below, when he claimed to be a Dr. with a degree in psychology from Sierra University LosAngeles. He also allowed himself to be introduced as a doctor on his Larry King interview. Source about his academic background from old newspaper article preserved. Earl King Jr. (talk) 05:41, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

If there is a third party source that addresses the issue then we can report what they say. However, whether it has due weight would be arguable. The best available is the 1961 article that talks about his psychology consultations.--Biophily (talk) 06:18, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Fresco lied obviously about his education and this proves it from this article If you remove that information you are acting as an employee of Venus Project and promoter and not interested in neutral presentation. Since you work for Fresco... have made a film about him and spent so much of your time advocating and promoting him you must refrain from removing critical and interesting information. Fresco claimed to be a Doctor. He did that again on Larry King show. Period. Earl King Jr. (talk) 14:53, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

3D Projector

Earl King your recent edit does not reflect the facts. Do you not recall that the photo of the projector was deleted? Yet you used a very dubious source that pulls a claim from nowhere that the projector was never built. There are better sources on this subject than the one you used. You reduced the Variety source that was published in 1949. The source you used is addressing something that happened over 60 years ago with absolutely no evidence for what it is saying. It's nothing but unresearched cynical opinion. Very poor source. I can't see how it has authority on that issue. It could be used as a critical opinion of Fresco's ideas, or more specifically, the film Future By Design, but nothing beyond that especially pertaining to historical facts. The fact that you would believe that malicious blog is surprising.--Biophily (talk) 06:51, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

The article is much better now that most of what you did in it has been made more neutral. Fresco has never made more than ostensible models of things like his 3D projector and as the article points out it did not work well enough to be used. That is the point. Fresco buildings do not exist. His glory years so called during the forties produced very little actual things that any one can point at. It has to be pointed out in the article that Fresco has mostly been a failure in terms of business and making money and that mostly he is a theory person and known for his social theories rather than his inventing, of which virtually no examples can be given that appeared in the real world. That is not malicious, its just his life story which he himself repeats over and over. His projector did not really work. So it was trumpeted up in some media by some promoters looking for funding, probably very cleverly, but that is not the same as actually having a working device. Earl King Jr. (talk) 00:10, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

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