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== Non historic facts == == Non historic facts ==


His cremation, his wandering throughout the subcontinent, and even his teachings are non-historic facts. Is there archaeological evidence for any of it? If not, then the entire second paragraph in the introduction must be stated to be according to Jain tradition. -Jenishc His cremation, his wandering throughout the subcontinent, and even his teachings are non-historic facts. Is there archaeological evidence for any of it? If not, then the entire second paragraph in the introduction must be stated to be according to Jain tradition. -Jenishc <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 00:17, 2 May 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

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April 5, 2016Good article nomineeListed
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Untitled

Mahavira's teachings are more or less duplicated in the Jainism page. We can prune the extra material and keep here only the details that cannot be found on the Jainism page.
Jay 22:32, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I've checked and I don't see an excessive overlap in content, but have moved the Jain prayer section to Jainism. The Teachings section that is here should stay IMO. It covers what Mahavir taught during his lifetime, which is not entirely the same as covering present-day Jain beliefs and practices. Mkweise 04:28, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Where is the anti-idol stuff

Mahavir was completely against any sort of rituals, idol worship. I don't have any sources so i haven't made any changes. Another interesting fact to note would be that he never intended to create a religion or considered a god. I am jain btw Source http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:IAYPsMy31M0J:www.britannica.com/eb/article-59030+site:britannica.com+jainism&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4

Overview of Life

Mahavira was married as per Swetambar belief whereas as per Digambar belief Mhavir never married. Similarly Mahavir was not a son of King Siddharth and Queen Trishla. It is believed that the embryo of Mahavira was transferred from a woman named Devananda to queen Trisala. This was because, as per the jain philosophy, a Tirthankara cannot be born is the Brahmin caste, and since Devananda was a Brahmin, the embryo of Mahavira was transferred.

GA Review

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Mahavira/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sainsf (talk · contribs) 04:06, 1 March 2016 (UTC)


An important article and also well-written. Will review. I have suggested copyediting and rewords to improve the look. Sainsf <^>Talk all words 04:06, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Lead

 Done Sainsf <^>Feel at home 14:44, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

  • Please do not include citations in the lead. The facts in the lead must all be mentioned in the main text as well - the citations should thus go to the main text.
A few left... Sainsf <^>Talk all words 18:30, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
  • "Tirthankara" should be in italics throughout the article. Either say "Tirthankara" or "tirthankara".  Done-- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 08:24, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
  • In general, all non-English words should be in italics. Please check this.
  • You should be consistent in whether you write numbers in digits or words (you say twenty-four, then 30). Numbers less than or equal to ten should be written only in words as per the MoS.  Done-- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 08:24, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
  • "has eight cardinal (law of trust) principles, three metaphysical (dravya, jiva and ajiva), and five ethical" --> "has eight cardinal (law of trust), three metaphysical (dravya, jiva and ajiva), and five ethical principles."  Done-- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 08:24, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Etymology

  • which means the one who grows; Nigaṇṭha means In which language?
  • Sramana Meaning? Italics
  • referred to his clan "refereed"-->"refers"

Historicity

Teachings

 Done -Nimit (talk) 03:35, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

Life events

  • to reduce the choppiness, we could combine and write sentences as "Belonging to the Kashyapa Gotra, he was born on the thirteenth day of the rising moon of Chaitra in the Vira Nirvana Samvat calendar. In the Gregorian calendar, this date falls in March or April and is celebrated as Mahavir Jayanti."
  • Traditionally, Kundalapura in the ancient city of Vaishali is regarded as his birthplace Earlier you said it is Kundagrama.
  • After his birth, anointment and consecration (abhisheka), carried out by Indra on Mount Meru, the axis of the central cosmic contingent of Jambudvipa, he was given the name Vardhmana. looks confusing, better write "After his birth, anointment and consecration (abhisheka) - carried out by Indra on Mount Meru, the axis of the central cosmic contingent of Jambudvipa - he was given the name Vardhmana."
  • Acharanga should be Acharanga Sutra
  • Vaishali and Parshvanatha are duplinks
  • I am not sure what "lay devotee" means. Does it mean Upāsaka and Upāsikā?
  • "Yashoda" need not be in italics.
  • Any info on where Yashoda came from?
  • Why is "Kundalpur" linked so late? The birthplace is not named similarly in all places.
  • went without clothes --> discarded his clothes
  • is graphic description --> is a graphic description
  • Acharanga Sutra and Vaishali are linked once again
  • Kalpa Sūtra (122) What does "122" mean?
  • twelve and a half --> twelve-and-a-half
  • Can we link Sala-tree and Barakar?
  • Acharanga sutra "S" in caps
  • For a period of 30 years after omniscience --> For a period of 30 years since having gained omniscience
  • According to the tradition Which tradition?
  • Pawapuri and Bihar are duplinks
  • Mahavira attained moksha, i.e. his soul is believed to have become Siddha (soul at its purest form), aged seventy-two --> Mahavira attained moksha - his soul is believed to have become Siddha (soul at its purest form) - at the age of seventy-two
  • According to Mahapurana --> According to the Mahapurana same for Pravachansara
  • only nails and hair of tirthankaras are left behind --> only the nails and hair of tirthankaras are left behind
  • a Jain temple, called Jal Mandir stands --> a Jain temple, called Jal Mandir, stands

Previous births

  • Why not write "Jinasena's Mahapurana" under Moksha, where it was first mentioned? Anyway, Mahapurana is a duplink here
  • in transmigratory cycle of saṃsāra --> in the transmigratory cycle of the saṃsāra (world)
  • Duplink: Kalpa Sūtra

Influence

  • You could add a description of Mahatma Gandhi here even if a link is present
  • Before the quote from Tagore, you could add a general line on how Mahavira influenced him and then what he had to say. Also add a word or two on who Tagore is.
  • Jain Poet Bhagchand Poet should not be in caps
  • Acharya Samantabhadra Why in italics?
  • Sixty-four verses Why caps?
  • Vardhamāna Mahāvīra Inconsistency in referring to Mahavira
  • of Nirvana of Mahavira --> of the Nirvana of Mahavira
  • Duplinks: mendicants, Digambara, Saṃsāra

Iconography

  • These emblem Plural
  • Mahavira is depicted having --> Mahavira is depicted as having
  • A word or two about Srivatsa?
  • Temples dedicated to Mahavira :- --> Temples dedicated to Mahavira include:
  • Source for "Temples"?
  • Kulpakji Jain temple, Pawapuri Jain temple Locations?
  • Captions:
  • The highest known image of Lord Mahāvīra (in seated position) Would be interesting if you could add the height
  • "Kankali Tila" is in italics at one place and not in italics in another
  • Mahavira Idol dated 1470 No caps in "Idol". 1470 CE/BC?

In popular culture

  • No source?
  • Could you add a line about the role of Mahavira in the movie? Or is the teacher just a namesake?

@Capankajsmilyo: Please continue with the issues here and at Talk:Digambara/GA1. I am tracking the changes and will mark the sections we are done with. Sainsf <^>Talk all words 05:15, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

@Capankajsmilyo: I have updated his page and done some ce in the article. Ref. 36 has a problem, please fix it soon. Sainsf <^>Talk all words 18:30, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Urgent update

@Capankajsmilyo: and @जैन: This article is indeed a good work but Earwig's copyvio detector shows 85.3% possibility of copyvio from ]. The article may need major rewording. Sainsf <^>Talk all words 12:25, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

@Sainsf: Many websites copy content from Wiki and this is just one example. -Nimit (talk) 17:11, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Nimit, this is quite true, and indeed that site was a virtual copy of our article as it stood on April 3, 2015 (two days before that sohansinghpurohit site updated that article on April 5, 2015). However, I do find what I believe is overly close paraphrasing of reference 24 (http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~pluralsm/affiliates/jainism/article/mahavira1.htm) in the final paragraph of the Teachings section. Compare the following (bold indicates identical text with the article; italics indicates a variant form of a word):
  • Source: Pursuit of pleasure as an endless game
  • Article: Mahavira also taught that pursuit of pleasure is an endless game
  • Source: mental poise and spiritual balance. A voluntary limitation of property is community virtue which results in social justice and fair distribution of utility commodities. The strong and the rich should not weed out the weak and the poor
  • Article: mental poise and spiritual balance. One should voluntarily limit acquisition of property as a community virtue which results in social justice and fair distribution of utility commodities. The strong and the rich should not try to suppress the weak and the poor
  • Source: Any attempt to enforce these qualities by an external and legal authority, either on the individual or society, will lead to hypocrisy or secret criminal tendencies.
  • Article: Attempting to enforce these five qualities by an external and legal authority leads to hypocrisy or secret criminal tendencies.
This does need to be fixed. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:03, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
@BlueMoonset: Thank you for pointing out. Will fix it soon.-Nimit (talk) 18:09, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

@जैन:, @BlueMoonset: Thanks. I needed to ensure this is no copyvio; I was not able to perform a deep check immediately. However, we have similar issues at Talk:Jain monasticism/GA1. Sainsf <^>Feel at home 03:41, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Sainsf, thanks for pointing out the copyvio issues with Talk:Jain monasticism/GA1; they were quite serious, and I had to remove large chunks of the article to remove the copyvio sections. (They were introduced into the article by an inexperienced Wikipedian on February 20, 2012, and went unnoticed until now.) I've pinged Nikkimaria to make sure there aren't any other issues. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:31, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Done

@Sainsf I guess all the points you mentioned have been resolved now. Can you please have a relook. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 05:41, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

@Capankajsmilyo: Marvelous! All the issues appear resolved now. I am really impressed by all the proper italics and helpful definitions for the foreign terms. It is good that you initiated a discussion on italics for "Mahavira", it is not a GA issue and can take its time for the discussion. Just a few final comments: Sainsf <^>Feel at home 08:08, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
  • I think at least in some cases the numbers in the lead should be in digits. It will appear less wordy. "seventy-two", for example, will look better as "72".
  • Under Biographies, Other texts including Kalpa Sūtra describe the life of Mahavira appears unsourced.
  • Source(s) for the Temples section?
Cleared @Sainsf -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 08:38, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. I believe this article is ready for promotion. Really glad to pass this. Cheers! Sainsf <^>Feel at home 08:47, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks a lot....My first GA. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 08:57, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Marriage

Article currently reads in part according to the Digambara tradition, Mahavira's parents wanted him to marry Yashoda but Mahavira refused to marry. According to the Śvētāmbara tradition, he was married to Yashoda at a young age and had one daughter, Priyadarshana. However the article at Yashoda seems unrelated. Andrewa (talk) 09:48, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Serious neutrality issues

I've re-added the neutrality tag to this article; it should not be removed until the issue at hand is satisfactorily resolved. As both myself and Vanamonde highlighted when this article was nominated at FAC, there are some very serious problems at play here. For me, the main issue is that it is blatantly written from the perspective of a practicing Jain. Mythology without basis in historical scholarship is presented as if it were fact. This might make a fantastic article in a Jain encyclopaedia written for Jains, but it is not appropriate for the purposes of Misplaced Pages. As I see it, the only way that this can be accomplished is for the article to undergo a thorough restructuring by editors with an interest and knowledge of Jainism but who are not practitioners of the religion in question. Until that happens, the tag must stay. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:43, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

I'd agree with Midnightblueowl's description of the issues here. I don't think they are necessarily insoluble by a practitioner; but anybody who wants to bring this up to a high standard will have to set aside their own POV, and work with the scholarly sources that are available. Vanamonde (talk) 10:07, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
If you highlight some specific issues, that would be of help. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 16:10, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
I concur with Midnightblueowl and Vanamonde93. @Capankajsmilyo: There is enough specificity in Midnightblueowl's explanation. You or someone should go line by line, and address Midnightblueowl's concerns. If the NPOV issue is not addressed in coming weeks, we should reconsider the GA status for this article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:04, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

@Midnightblueowl:, @Vanamonde93: I have completed a major cleanup of the main article, fixed numerous misrepresentations of sources, added summary from peer reviewed scholarship and publications by non-Jains. I have also added contentious issues/ideas attributed to Mahavira, plus summaries from various sides on these. The article is much bigger now, with far more scholarly non-Jain sources. Please have another look. Next week, I suggest we remove the POV tag. The article is still not anywhere ready for an FA review. It needs a once-through thorough check, expansion of the festivals section, copyediting by GOCE, and some rethinking on the images, layout, etc. The article also needs to be stable for a while. I suggest we postpone any re-nom for FA review by at least 3-6 months. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:58, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Well done on your hard work, Ms Sarah Welch. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:15, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Issues and suggestions

Thank you, Capankajsmilyo for inviting me. Please look at Buddha or Jesus article to understand how an article on religious figure is handled. There should be two separate sections on his life; one according to Jain sources and one according to historical views. Here Biography section mixes both views. The sources should be mentioned in biography according to Jain texts like "Kalpasutra (Shloka 56) mentions he was born on...". There should be separate section which lists how other sources viewed him like contemporary Buddhist sources. There should be a section which lists artistic depictions including iconography. There is no need to have section temples. His teaching should be incorporated in his life according to Jain texts. I think these points will result in complete overhaul of the article. Feel free to discuss if you want to know more about any specific issue. Regards and please keep editing,--Nizil (talk) 06:28, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

I am afraid that there would be lack of good sources for this overhaul.--Nizil (talk) 06:31, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

@Nizil, @Capankajsmilyo, @others: I am delighted that you have taken the FA review comments seriously, and are collaborating. I suggest you update this article by summarizing content from the publications of Paul Dundas, John Cort, Klaus Bruhn, Moriz Winternitz, Jeffery Long, and others. The version commented on by @Vanamonde93 above, did cite Winternitz, Dundas, Cort, etc already... but in the passing and ignores most of what they have written. Here are some additional sources to read and summarize. If you are unable to get hold of these, try WP:RX who may be able to help you in some cases.

If you get stuck and need more sources, leave me a message on my talk page. I will try to help. @Midnightblueowl:, @Vanamonde93: are there other wikipedia resources that can help Capankajsmilyo and others? Happy reading and summarizing, Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:04, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you very much, User:Ms Sarah Welch for pointing out refs as my main concerns were regarding avail of sources. Will look into it and do whatever can be done by me. Capankajsmilyo, please join and bring others who are interested. Regards,-Nizil (talk) 14:02, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Jainworld.com and other websites

@Capankajsmilyo: Please avoid jainworld.com and such websites, if you wish to keep this GA or make another FA attempt. You can link useful websites in external links section if they meet ELYES guidelines. If a particular stotra or text is famous, you should easily find discussions of that text/work in peer reviewed scholarly sources and similar quality RS. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:17, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Rebirth and realms of birth

@Capankajsmilyo:, @Others: The article is slowly starting to improve, thanks to your efforts. One major weakness remains the complete silence on rebirth, better rebirth, worse rebirth, "birth realms", etc doctrines of Mahavira. This is central to understanding the significance of the five vows and Mahavira's axiology. Needs to be summarized to address the NPOV concerns. You can source this from many WP:RS, for example Naomi Appleton's Narrating Karma and Rebirth: Buddhist and Jain Multi-Life Stories, published by Cambridge University Press. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:43, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Dating clarification

The statements about dating of Mahavira have become confusing. We don't have any names on scholars who have dated Mahavira anymore. Ms Sarah Welch, would you please help in this? -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 18:05, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Pinging Sitush, Nizil Shah, Utcursch. Further, the sources cited in Jain biography against 599 BC like Doniger, Upinder Singh, etc. doesn't mention it to be traditional dating. Does that mean it's historical? -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 18:18, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Can't help with this one, sorry. I'm afraid my eyes glaze over when I see Ms Sarah Welch is involved: complicated stuff just seems to get more complicated. My fault, probably. - Sitush (talk) 18:30, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
@Capankajsmilyo: If you read the Doniger article all the way, not just the first para, she does mention the dating is per the tradition. See the last para, for example. Please use "diff" in future, before you allege "don't have any names.... anymore". It wasn't there when I recently reviewed this article (before my edit). I don't know what you are referring to when you are allegedly implying as if "names of scholars" was there! Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 19:02, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
I was not "alleging" anything. I just feel that it should have some names, ample of which are given in KC Jain's - Lord Mahavira's and his times. If the word anymore led to misunderstanding, I take that back. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 19:06, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
See this, Pg 73-88. It's too elaborate, I don't know how to summarise it. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 19:11, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

@Capankajsmilyo: Diffs are always a good idea, when you allege "X is not in the article anymore". "Anymore" implies the article had it, now it doesn't. I see the tags you added to the lead. The GA/FA articles need not have cites in the lead. The lead is a summary of the main. I suggest you carefully read the main article and the cited sources therein, then ask if "5th century BCE" etc is supported or not in Dundas, Marty etc? FWIW, 425 or 405 BCE is obviously 5th-century BCE! See Kristi Wiley's publications on Jainism as well. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:09, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

I guess the position of cn tag made you believe that. Never mind, I have repositioned the tag to specific word and added 6th-century too as some historians date him to be so. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 20:19, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
@Capankajsmilyo: I am disappointed that in your watch and active editing of this article, the article has been misrepresenting the sources. The Charles Taliaferro and Elsa J. Marty source states 497 to 425 BCE, but the version you developed and nominated for FA stated 480 to 408 BCE in the Birth subsection! Please do check the sources, line by line. Given the Copyvio problems in the past, and these sort of systematic errors, I hesitate in working further on this and any Jainism-related articles. I urge you rapidly check each source and each line, fix such problems, or nominate this article to be removed from its GA status. @Vanamonde93: please note, Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:43, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
This is what I missed. Will try and see again. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 03:05, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
@Capankajsmilyo, Please go through line by line, cite by cite and scrub this article out. Others and I can help you with your FA efforts only if we witness an eagerness for FA quality, not for FA awards. The quality of the effort and the accuracy in summarizing the sources should shine through on its own. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 05:28, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
@Capankajsmilyo: Your FA-nominated version, and the article currently states "title Jīnā ("the victor or conqueror of inner enemies such as attachment, pride and greed"), which later became synonymous with Tirthankara." It cites Zimmer, p. 223 for support. I do not see this supported there, and the source just states Jina (the "Victor"). Do you see this supported on that page or elsewhere in Zimmer? If yes, where? If no, please revise. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 19:30, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

 Done -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 19:39, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Anekantavada

This section needs to be better explained. It is important because it is one of the Jain doctrines that differentiate it from both Buddhism and Hinduism. The Anekantavada idea is not really pluralism, it is far more sophisticated and nuanced. It is its details that created controversy and disputes about it in the historic Buddhist and Vedanta texts. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:32, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Death in tradition

Using the word death in historical section is ok, but no Jain tradition ever accepted that he died. Is that a suitable title? -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 03:03, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

@Capankajsmilyo: As two editors during the FA-review rejection observed, this is wikipedia, and this article should not be "blatantly written from the perspective of a practicing Jain" sect. An encyclopedic article should not "uncritically repeat Jain beliefs and mythology" and "make heavy use of Jain terminology", or fail to "step away from the POV of a believer". I too am really concerned about these issues in this article, as well this article's quality, the long and continued failure of active editors of this article to fix the misrepresentation of sources in this article, and whether the last GA review missed all this or editors since then have highjacked it into a non-GA article! Please read the scholarly sources, and they do use the word "died" or equivalent, while discussing the Jain texts and tradition! Also see WP:EUPHEMISM. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 10:07, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Tag after the Paryushana sentence

The clarification needed tag at the end of the Birth section states see Dalal, p=284 etc. I looked at two books by Dalal, but nothing on their page 284. Which Dalal source is this? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 10:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Link -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 10:18, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Non historic facts

His cremation, his wandering throughout the subcontinent, and even his teachings are non-historic facts. Is there archaeological evidence for any of it? If not, then the entire second paragraph in the introduction must be stated to be according to Jain tradition. -Jenishc — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.215.220.163 (talk) 00:17, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

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