Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:03, 13 June 2017

Film Project‑class

This page is within the scope of WikiProject Film. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please refer to the documentation. To improve this article, please refer to the guidelines.FilmWikipedia:WikiProject FilmTemplate:WikiProject Filmfilm Project This page does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

Manual of Style

This page falls within the scope of the Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the Manual of Style (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.Manual of StyleWikipedia:WikiProject Manual of StyleTemplate:WikiProject Manual of StyleManual of Style This page falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Misplaced Pages Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are subjects of debate. Contributors are urged to review the awareness criteria carefully and exercise caution when editing. For information on Misplaced Pages's approach to the establishment of new policies and guidelines, refer to WP:PROPOSAL. Additionally, guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Misplaced Pages policies of Misplaced Pages's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.

To discuss the {{Infobox film}} template and its parameters, please visit Template talk:Infobox film.

WikiProject Film
General information ( v t e ) Main project page + talk → Discussion archives Style guidelines talk → Multimedia talk → Naming conventions talk → Copy-editing essentials talk Notability guidelines talk Announcements and open tasks talk → Article alerts → Cleanup listing → New articles talk → Nominations for deletion talk → Popular pages → Requests talk Spotlight talk Film portal talk Fiction noticeboard talk
Project organization Coordinators talk Participants talk Project banner talk Project category talk
Departments Assessment talk → B-Class → Instructions Categorization talk Core talk Outreach talk Resources talk Review talk Spotlight talk → Spotlight cleanup listing Topic workshop talk
Task forces General topics Film awards talk Film festivals talk Film finance talk Filmmaking talk Silent films talk Genre Animated films talk Christian films talk Comic book films talk Documentary films talk Marvel Cinematic Universe talk Skydance Media talk War films talk Avant-garde and experimental films talk National and regional American cinema talk Argentine cinema talk Australian cinema talk Baltic cinema talk Belgian cinema talk British cinema talk Canadian cinema talk Chinese cinema talk French cinema talk German cinema talk Indian cinema talk Israeli cinema talk Italian cinema talk Japanese cinema talk Korean cinema talk Mexican cinema talk New Zealand cinema talk Nordic cinema talk Pakistani cinema talk Persian cinema talk Southeast Asian cinema talk Soviet and post-Soviet cinema talk Spanish cinema talk Uruguayan cinema talk Venezuelan cinema talk
Templates banner DVD citation DVD liner notes citation infobox invite plot cleanup stub userbox

Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23

This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 10 sections are present.

Soundtrack covers

I've been asked to discuss this issue here. I've talked to Mz7 about soundtrack covers in his talk page. He said as long as the cover is different from the film's poster, it's okay to include in an article. I recently got into a fight with Explicit over a soundtrack cover that was similar to the film's poster, and he threatened to block me. I don't want to lose my right to edit, so I think soundtrack covers should be allowed in articles about the film itself as long as the cover of the soundtrack is different from the film's poster. Is that fair? DBZFan30 (talk) 23:35, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Let's be clear here. I took a look and Explicit warned you not because he disagreed with you, but because you were removing other editors' legitimate discussion comments. This is a collaborative project, which means that editors are expected to work together. If you continue to say things like "I don't trust anyone on this site. I can do whatever I want." in edit summaries (see ), I think you will find that you will be asked to leave the project. I'm honestly a little confused why you were so adamant about reversing Explicit's actions to begin with. As you mentioned, I had talked with you just a few weeks ago about how the Misplaced Pages community has decided in the past not to include soundtrack covers when they are not substantially different from the film poster, and you're acknowledging that in this case, the cover was indeed similar to the film poster. If you knew you were in the wrong, why keep pushing for it?With that being said, we're all willing to work with you on this, so it's good that you're starting a discussion here so that we can collaborate. I've had the impression for the past few years that if a soundtrack cover is substantially different from the film poster, that means the film poster is not enough to provide visual identification of the soundtrack cover, allowing WP:NFCC#3a and WP:NFCC#8 to be met. Mz7 (talk) 00:43, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

@Mz7: What I said about me not trusting anyone on Misplaced Pages is true. I only signed up because you can't just wait for someone to add something important. I respect everyone on this site (including you), but I just don't trust anyone on the Internet at all. Another thing that bugs me is the "WP" and "MOS" rules. Anyone can change them at any time just like every other page on Misplaced Pages, which is why I never read them when someone undoes my edits. I just want Misplaced Pages to be a better place than it was before by allowing soundtrack covers that are different from the poster. DBZFan30 (talk) 06:11, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Soundtrack images should not be used in film articles per WP:NFCC#8. If it is the same image as the film's poster, then the soundtrack image does not add anything to a reader's knowledge. If it is different, then there needs to be some sort of reliable third party source giving critical commentary on the soundtrack cover, at which point it would be helpful to a reader to actually see the album cover. But simply saying "The soundtrack is different than the poster, it can be included" is not a argument that will get you far enough or win support. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:58, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

I agree. We have to remember that Misplaced Pages wants to limit use of non-free content. So when we include non-free content (in this case soundtrack cover images), we must have strong justification for it. In general, a stand-alone topic can have an identifying image to go with it, but a soundtrack would have to be notable on its own (and have its own article) to warrant its own identifying image. Beyond an identifying image, there must be a strong rationale for including another image. Soundtrack covers rarely qualify. A certain shot or copyrighted element of a film needs to be discussed to prompt the consideration of adding an image with the text to illustrate it for the readers. Erik (talk | contrib) 16:17, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Favre1fan93 and Erik. We are permitted under fair use laws to use a non-free image to identify the subject of the article. When you have an article exclusively about a soundtrack then it is acceptable to include the sountrack image, but when it is simply the sub-section of a film article the FUR does not hold up i.e. the soundtrack is not the subject of the article, the film is. If the law permitted us to use images to simply illustrate every aspect of an article or book under fair use then artists and photographers simply would not be able to earn a living. Betty Logan (talk) 18:37, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Here's a better exception: if the film itself stars a notable singer, musician or band (such as Alvin and the Chipmunks) who performs one or more songs in the film but the soundtrack is not notable for its own article, then the cover of the soundtrack should be allowed. Is that better? DBZFan30 (talk) 17:38, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

That doesn't change the fact that the album cover is still non-free content. It could have all the greatest musicians ever, but if the cover is visually similar to the poster used in the infobox, it shouldn't be used, to satisfy WP:NFCC#8. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:57, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Just to clarify further, if there isn't commentary on said album cover then it still cannot be used. Non-free is non-free. All non-free images require justification. We have had to fight for film posters to be included based on "visual representation", but in all honestly they don't actually meet WP:NONFREE or WP:FUC completely. Given that, we cannot simply use the same logic for another image, especially when this isn't an article about said image.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 19:15, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Actually, the singular use is supported. WP:NFC#Meeting the contextual significance criterion says, "To identify a subject of discussion, depiction of a prominent aspect of the subject generally suffices, thus only a single item of non-free content meets the criterion." If an album is not notable enough to stand alone, then it stays under the topic of the film, for which the single item of non-free content applies. Erik (talk | contrib) 19:27, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

@Erik: Here's one more exception: all movie soundtracks require their own article, regardless of notability. That way, soundtrack covers won't be a problem at all. How does that sound? DBZFan30 (talk) 13:16, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

It sounds inappropriate to me. Not all movie soundtracks are notable by WP standards. DonIago (talk) 13:27, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

This is getting silly. This talk page is not the place for contriving exceptions to Misplaced Pages policy. If a soundtrack is notable then we should create an article for it. If the section is so big such that splits are required to comply with WP:SIZERULE then we can spin the section off into a dedicated article. Otherwise the soundtrack section should remain part of the film article. If the inclusion of non-free artwork complies with WP:NFCC then we can add it, if not then we can't. It's that simple. We don't game the system to add illustrations we like to articles. Betty Logan (talk) 13:55, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

DBZFan30, we create articles if a topic is notable. It goes against guidelines to create soundtrack articles regardless of notability, especially to circumvent the policy of limiting non-free content. Erik (talk | contrib) 15:07, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

@Erik: Out of all the 845,000 files uploaded to Misplaced Pages, 579,000 of them are non-free. Misplaced Pages doesn't limit the use of non-free files at all. If Misplaced Pages wants to limit the use of non-free content, then they should stop accepting copyrighted files and delete every single one so the Wikimedia Foundation doesn't get sued. DBZFan30 (talk) 19:25, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

The Wikimedia Foundation hosts the vast majority of free content at Wikimedia Commons, so it is no surprise that the non-free content makes up the majority of what it is uploaded to Misplaced Pages. Have you read WP:NFC? The lead section's second and third paragraphs explain how to consider non-free content. Erik (talk | contrib) 19:31, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

I'll relate a story from the late 2000s in how this policy was enforced. When I first started editing Misplaced Pages, articles about TV series actually had a screenshot for each episode. This was challenged, and ultimately, these screenshots were deleted. In regard to film, we have almost always uploaded posters with low image resolution (see WP:IMAGERES), essentially to avoid being a source for deliberate copyright infringement. Erik (talk | contrib) 19:38, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Betty Logan, Doniago, and @Erik: if a movie is notable, the soundtrack is notable too. Some examples are Purple Rain and Scarface. They are both notable films and the soundtracks are notable too. However, the soundtrack itself is almost a completely different topic when it is mentioned in a film's article (examples are The Breakfast Club and I Saw the Light), which is why I suggested that all movie soundtracks have their own article. DBZFan30 (talk) 20:47, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Notability is WP:NOTINHERITED. Betty Logan (talk) 20:50, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

I disagree that a film's soundtrack in any way inherits the notability of the film itself, as you seem to be suggesting. While that may be a trend, that doesn't make it a foregone conclusion. The notability of a film's soundtrack is established by significant coverage of it, just as the notability of a film is established by significant coverage of the film. DonIago (talk) 20:53, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

@DBZFan30: Please do not make changes such as this one. Soundtrack albums are subject to notability guidelines just like any other album. This has been explained to you above by both myself and Doniago so please do not make changes that alter the fundamental interpretation of the guideline. Betty Logan (talk) 21:08, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

@Betty Logan: I do not take no for an answer. Just agree with me for once. DBZFan30 (talk) 15:42, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

That's an extremely poor attitude and you will not get very far in any discussion if you only can accept the outcome if it goes in your way (especially one like this that is on strict Misplaced Pages policy). I'm starting to sense that you're WP:NOTHERE. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:42, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

@Favre1fan93: Sorry about that. I just don't understand why everyone on Misplaced Pages has to disagree with me. First everyone disagreed on adding a controversial topic about a Nintendo game and now everyone disagrees with allowing soundtrack covers in film articles and even changing a single word in a sentence. I promise I will make better edits in the future and I will not start any new discussions or reply on anymore talk pages. This is the last time everyone will see my signature on this talk page. Goodbye. DBZFan30 (talk) 02:59, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Sourcing for production companies

Lately, I've been trying to source production companies in film articles. Besides the hoaxing by IP editors, there is sometimes disagreement over whether a company should be included, and editors frequently resort to original research to decide. I'm tired of having citations I add to articles get blanked because editors disagree with the conclusions reached by the source. I would propose we add wording to the MOS to suggest we base the production companies on what reliable sources say. For example: "Production companies should be based on what reliable sources report." Nothing fancy. This will hopefully cut down on the amount of times I have to have to leave irritable messages on talk pages because someone strips out a citation that doesn't jive with their own original research. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 01:59, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Editors really shouldn't be replacing any sourced content with unsourced content in any case, and when I see that being done I typically issue a warning. I don't think I've seen a situation where there was edit-warring after that point. DonIago (talk) 02:20, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

I have no objection to the proposed change if you think it will honestly help but doesn't policy already cover this? If someone removes sourced content and replaces it with unsourced content then I would simply revert them and refer them to WP:V. If they keep doing it they should simply be blocked. Betty Logan (talk) 09:14, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

There seems to be a significant minority of editors who believe production companies are obvious enough that you don't have to source them (and the sources are wrong, anyway). I see random editors constantly fiddling with production companies, like maybe changing one from Sony to Columbia to Columbia-Tristar to Tristar. And, I'm like, "Holy crap. Just stop. Here's a source that says it's Sony!" And then I get dragged into a debate over whether Sony is even a production company, like I care about Sony's corporate structure. But if this is too obvious, we could skip it. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 21:56, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

They are probably cribbing the company names from the film credits or IMDB. The problem with that is that it is not always clear which function a company served on a film. It would perhaps be more helpful to specify which types of sources are preferred i.e. secondary sources that explicitly identify a company as a production company. Betty Logan (talk) 22:31, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree, but I didn't want to get too fancy. Sometimes it's a logo on a poster, especially for upcoming films. It's difficult to find good sources on them, so people often turn to promotional material. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 22:52, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Maybe something like, "When possible, production companies should be sourced to reliable secondary sources that explicitly identify the production companies." This would give people an exception for going to primary sources (like posters or the opening credits) when there are no other available sources. It's not like they're going to stop doing it, anyway. This'll cut back on the amount of interpretation based on primary sources, though. Or maybe we should say something to that effect? I don't know if that's necessary, but it would probably help explain why we're suggesting secondary sources. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:07, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

That's fine with me. It might be better to add it to the {{Infobox film}} guidelines rather than the MOS though. Betty Logan (talk) 09:27, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Support that change and what Betty said about the infobox - anything to help clarity on this. Lugnuts 09:34, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Alright, I'll tack on a short note at Template:Infobox film/doc. It's been almost two weeks since I proposed this change. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:10, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

See White Chicks, where Tjdrum2000 is edit warring to restore an unsourced production company. I swear, I'm just going to start reporting people to ANI for this. Once they've been blocked for 24 hours, maybe they'll stop. I will also start blocking people for this myself if I'm not "involved". I don't understand why editors think they can add whatever they want to infoboxes without sources. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:50, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I was only trying to because the logo for it was on the poster. Tjdrum2000 (talk) 22:13, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

RfC: Addition of "Columns" sub-section

Based on the discussion at WT:FILM here (permalink), I propose an addition of a "Columns" sub-section under "Non-prose components" to outline best practices when working with columns in film articles. Here is a preliminary write-up:

Columns are commonplace in Misplaced Pages articles about films, most often for "Cast" and "References" sections. If a single column of references or actors and roles takes up vertical space, it can be converted into multiple columns to use horizontal white space and reduce vertical space as long as there is a noticeable improvement for readers. However, editors should realize that readers view Misplaced Pages with different screen widths. Therefore, requiring a list to be broken up into a specific number of columns every time may appear unreadable or difficult to read with some screen widths. Instead of setting a specific number of columns, set an em value instead, which allows the number of columns presenting a list to change based on the reader's screen width. Please see the template documentation below for further guidance:

• References: {{Reflist}} (See "Columns" section)
• Cast list and other lists: {{Div col}} (see "Usage" section and |cols= and |colwidth= parameters)

The WikiProject Film community prefers 25em to be used as the default value unless there is a compelling reason to use a different value. Per WP:RESOL, editors need to ensure accessibility for resolutions of 1024 pixels wide and upward. The most popular laptop resolution is 1366x768, and the most popular desktop resolution is 1920x1080. The value of 25em allows for there to be two to four columns for all resolutions between 1024 and 1920.

Thoughts on this? Betty Logan, Millahnna, MarnetteD? Erik (talk | contrib) 16:00, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

I like it. This is the sort of technical stuff that I personally have been slowest to learn. I suspect other people who, like me, mostly just poke at awkward writing, would find this type of clarification helpful. Millahnna (talk) 16:04, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks! Another thought that occurred to me, something that Betty mentioned, is that multiple columns should not be done if there are not many rows. For example, I do not do this in articles that have only five references. Not sure what rule of thumb we could consider for references as well as cast lists. Erik (talk | contrib) 16:07, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

The Rack Pack (recently created) has only three references. This has no em value at all. This as 25em. I see three columns on my end, showing one reference per column, which to me seems more difficult to read than it has to be with just three references overall. Erik (talk | contrib) 16:10, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Your suggestion is fine by me. The three column Rack Pack looks a bit naff to be honest and it doesn't actually save any space either. The whole point of column dividing is to save on vertical space by using up horizontal whitespace, and no vertical space is saved in the The Rack Pack example (they both have three rows each), so it is self-defeating in this case. If you want to to see an extreme example contrast the "notes" section for Lee Grant: 1 column; 3 columns. Here you can see that the column splitting results in creating more horizontal whitespace and increasing the vertical height of the section i.e. it achieves the exact opposite of what it is supposed to do! Maybe we could simply add a recommendation that it is only worth using column dividers if it results in saving a noticeable amount of vertical space. Betty Logan (talk) 16:41, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

This proposal looks good to me as well. Like Millahnna learning these takes me awhile. Another benefit to having them in FILMMOS is to be able to point other editors to the reasons for using them in this manner. MarnetteD|Talk 16:47, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Haven't really been following, but this seems fine to add. I've also changed updated syntax in Erik's proposal for better formatting. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:56, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

I've added Betty's description about vertical space and horizontal white space. Any further suggestions? Erik (talk | contrib) 17:03, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

What about {{Columns}} as an option? IMO, with two columns, it looks neater than {{Div col}} on large screens. Daß Wölf 02:15, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I am not sure if it is a good practice. It shows an alert that says, "This template creates a table rather than actual columns. This means that it displays poorly on mobile devices or narrow screens and is sub-optimal in terms of accessibility. Approximately half of the readers of English Misplaced Pages articles are using mobile devices and may have trouble reading the content that is wrapped in this template. Please consider using one of the CSS-based column templates (listed at the end of this page) instead, or not using columns at all." I am not sure if there is a way to "cap" multiple columns so it is not too many on a super-wide screen. Erik (talk | contrib) 03:04, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Ultimately we are looking for a compromise that works on most displays. The first thing to bear in mind is that we have a responsibility to ensure that the article/list is accessible on all resolutions of 1024 pixels wide (basically landscape ipad) and upwards per WP:RESOL. We do not have a responsibility to resolutions below that. The second thing to consider is that there are only three resolutions that have over 5% usage: 360x640 (which we do not have to cater for), 1366x768 (the most popular laptop resolution) and 1920x 1080 (the most popular desktop resolution). So really we need a column width that works for resolutions between 1080 and 1920. I have provided some comparisons below for regular font size:

1. 1024x768 (2 columns for 25em, 1 column for higher)
2. 1366x768 (3 columns for 25em, 2 columns for 30em and 35em, 1 column for 40em and higher)
3. 1920x1200 (4 columns for 25em, 3 columns for 30em and 35em, 2 columns for 40em and higher)

So at 25em you get 2–4 columns for all resolutions between 1024 and 1920, which takes into account the two most popular resolutions and the lowest resolution we have to provide for, which I personally think is ok. We also know that 25em works on Marnette's display, but he loses his columns at 30em. The alternative is simply to hardcode two columns (which would give two columns at all resolutions) but I'm not sure how much resistance we would face considering that hardcoding the number of columns is deprecated. Personally I think 4 columns looks better than 2 columns at 1920, although I appreciate that's just my preference. If we could could cap it at three columns that would be fantastic although I don't think that's technically possible. Betty Logan (talk) 08:45, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Betty Logan, very useful analysis! I've gone ahead and updated the draft with the justification for 25em. Does that suffice? Erik (talk | contrib) 15:55, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

You should take into account that em size depends on text size. References section has smaller text, so there can be extra columns. For instance, I'm getting five 25em columns in References on a 1920px screen. Daß Wölf 01:31, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't think it really matters how many columns the references section has since i) they are at the bottom of the article anyway and ii) readers don't tend to read through them. Having lists—usually a cast list—plonked in the middle of the article can look aesthetically poor if the list is long and there is only a single column because you end up with a huge mass of whitespace in the middle of the article. References can stay at 30em or whatever the main MOS deems necessary. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if 30em was selected with the smaller font size of the references section in mind i.e. 30em at 90% regular font size (as in the reference section) will be equivalent to 27em at normal font size, so virtually identical to the 25em being proposed below. Betty Logan (talk) 18:23, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Why 25em over 30em? - i also dont see what others see - why ...as had to be pointed out in the examples above - font size selection - something that many many many people change. This discrepancy of 25em vs 30em will lead to nothing but problems if we have contradicting advice. There are many editors that do nothing but change set columns and odd ??em's to 30em....let alone people who will change 25em to 30em when they see it because its the new norm. Is it really best to not use the norm, thus leading to thousands of edits back and fourth for no real reason but for what a few see on their screens. Got to remember what one person sees will not be what others see - I would recommend that the guideline follow the norm WP:POLCON....as 25 vs 30 was debated over with one being selected. - Moxy (talk) 21:03, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

The reason is that at 30em columns do not show up for all readers - at 25em they do. If we put it in MOSFILM then we can point editors to the proper policy and guideline. Yes edit wars "might" happen but they can be shut down (with blocks if necessary) with proper info in MOSFILM. MarnetteD|Talk 21:10, 26 April 2017 (UTC)]

If your saying 30em does not work for many perhaps best we change all to 25em...as in guidelines , template pages and how-to pages........lets get an RfC going as this info that 30em is no working for all is a problem.--Moxy (talk) 21:28, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Hi Moxy I would never say "many" unless I had empirical evidence to back it up :-) It might even be only a few readers that it would effect. I do know that I made a couple edits on the W&P article that didn't use any "em#" and Betty Logan helped me to learn why those weren't helpful. I apologize to all if my suggestion is causing problems with coming up with a solution. MarnetteD|Talk 21:55, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

We don't have to determine the optimal em value here. The wording can be softened, and we can determine in a more central location what em value, or what range of em values would be good to use. Betty's analysis can be shared. Maybe Village Pump? Erik (talk | contrib) 21:32, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Dame...sorry was a bit quick I guess-....change title of RfC.--Moxy (talk) 21:40, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) We can soften the wording. It's a value based on Betty's analysis that we are putting forth. Any suggestions on re-wording? I used 30em personally because some documentation mentioned that as an example. Erik (talk | contrib) 21:11, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I was also a 30em stalwart until I realized it was causing some issues. What 25em guarantees is that on all displays over 1024 pixels wide (which WP:RESOL obliges us to cater for) you get at least two columns with an average font size, so that you don't have a load of whitespace next to a single-column list halfway through the article (which the film articles commonly get with cast lists). If you veer too far away from a standard browser resolution and default font size you can't expect an optimal browsing experience I guess, but it seem reasonable to me to have at least two column cast lists on resolutions over 1024 pixels at standard browser font size (16pt), which 25em is able to deliver. I don't mind it going to a site-wide RFC but the problem is motivated by a film-specific issue. Betty Logan (talk) 21:55, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Survey

• Support the proposed wording. Since this proposal has gone to RFC I would like to clear up exactly what the issue is and what is being proposed. The Film project is proposing a guideline that will tackle a specific issue with cast lists such as the one at War_and_Peace_(film_series)#Cast which frequently appear in film articles. If cast lists are restricted to a single column, the article can end up looking aesthetically ugly and disjointed with a huge amount of whitespace appearing to the right of the list on larger display screens. To this end it is common for long cast lists to use the {{div col}} feature so that the cast list is divided into columns, the number of which can be hardcoded using cols=2 or by setting the column width using colwidth=25em and allowing the browser to dynamically determine the number of columns. Hardcoding the number of columns is now deprecated and allowing the browser to determine the number of columns is preferred, although not policy. Bearing this in mind, the question is then what should the column width be set to?

As far as I am aware there is no prescribed site-wide preference. Template:Reflist#Columns recommends 30em for full references and 20em for shortened footnotes. However, the film project is proposing a "rule of thumb" width of 25em for casts lists only based on the following reasons:

• Per WP:RESOL the article/list is accessible on all resolutions of 1024 pixels wide (basically landscape ipad) and upwards.
• Only three resolutions have over 5% usage: 360x640 (which we do not have to cater for), 1366x768 (the most popular laptop resolution) and 1920x 1080 (the most popular desktop resolution).

So really we need a column width that works for resolutions between 1080 and 1920. I have provided some comparisons below for regular font size (the default for most browsers is 16pt):

1. 1024x768 (2 columns for 25em, 1 column for higher)
2. 1366x768 (3 columns for 25em, 2 columns for 30em and 35em, 1 column for 40em and higher)
3. 1920x1200 (4 columns for 25em, 3 columns for 30em and 35em, 2 columns for 40em and higher)

So at 25em you get 2–4 columns meaning whitespace will be eliminated for all resolutions between 1024 and 1920 at regaular font size. While I appreciate that selecting a column width is arbitrary (since there will always be users who fall outside the parameters you apply) it is better that arbitrary setting of the column widths is based on the most common resolutions and font sizes rather than an editor's own personal preference. Remember, this is just a guideline; there will always be exceptions (maybe the structure of the cast will lend itself to a more unique layout, or an editor may choose to fill the whitespace with images using public domain material such as at Gone_with_the_Wind_(film)#Cast, or perhaps the cast list is small enough to confine it to a box such as at Jaws_(film)#Casting) and this guideline is not mandating a layout, but just proposing a general column width based on some common metrics for cast lists which use multiple columns. Betty Logan (talk) 19:43, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

1. (invited by the bot) No objection but there is so much background info that is relevant here that I suggest that it be decided by persons who are more active in this area. North8000 (talk) 18:10, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

About nationalities

I think the nationality of a film should be covered later in the paragraph only if it's three or more nationalities instead of two, because I think two nationalities should be the maximum amount of them allowed in the first sentence. What do you guys think? Tjdrum2000 (talk) 18:00, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Hi Tjdrum2000. I agree. I tend to write "title is a 1995 internationally co-produced film..." instead of adding every single country in the lead if there's three or more. The finer details can be included in the section under production. Lugnuts 18:18, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Ditto and I'm a fan of Lugnuts's method of writing to address the problem. Speaking purely as a reader as I rarely am involved in editing that stage of article development, the longer country lists end up making for a super clunky opening sentence. I've sometimes seen the 3+ country lists in conjunction with the longer lists of genres we've been trying to avoid, which rather compounds the problem. Millahnna (talk) 18:32, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Personally I'm so tired of seeing edit-warring over nationalities that I'd be amenable to seeing it kicked out of the lead sentence altogether, but I admit that's probably an unpopular opinion. DonIago (talk) 03:36, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Lugnuts, Millahnna, I think they are saying they want to do American-British but not American-British-French. I think even a pairing is too much because it still implies false equivalence and still leads to edit warring. Although like Doniago said, even one can be problematic. I prefer to kick the issue to the rest of the lead section if there's even a whiff of a debate (because it's so tiresome) and just explain what each country has to do with the film per WP:FILMLEAD. Sometimes it's simple as saying "co-production between" so-and-so, sometimes one can say this country's studio produced the film, this country provided some financing, etc. Erik (talk | contrib) 13:39, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

And, more to the point, people want to know what national culture has influenced the film - which principally means the Director, Producer, and where it was filmed. Too many editors try and add 'American' into the mix because a film has some American involvement in finance or distribution, which is missing the point MapReader (talk) 17:55, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

My understanding is that the nationality applied to a film is based on who "owns" the film, which generally comes down to studio, not director. If I (as an American) direct a film, but it's entirely funded by a Japanese company who will own it after my involvement is concluded, it's a Japanese film, by that definition.

Which just strengthens my view that we shouldn't mention nationality in the lead sentence if we're not even in agreement as to what it reflects. DonIago (talk) 18:10, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I have thought for some time we should defer to the Lumiere database for national identities where it is practical. They have a more nuanced methodology which could be incorporated into Misplaced Pages articles. Here are some examples:

• Avatar – An international co-production between the US and the UK.
• Skyfall – Produced by a British company that is at least partially owned by a US company (Eon Productions which produces the Bond films is half-owned by the Brocollis and and half-owned by American MGM)
• The Dark Knight – An American film produced through a British based company (basically an American satellite production)

Betty Logan (talk) 19:04, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Betty. Though, like AFI, it takes a little while to come out with pages for new releases, I have found Lumiere to be the single best source for nationality. It should be listed (and listed first) in the film infobox documentation guideline. - Gothicfilm (talk) 22:20, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

RFC at NCFILM

Seeking feedback of any kind for a proposal at WT:NCF#RFC: Clarifying the intended meaning. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 06:43, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Undesirable/extraneous

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

This discussion doesn't seem to be going anywhere useful. A change was proposed, but it didn't gain consensus. It's time for the involved editors to move on now. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 12:02, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Alright, let's settle this here. Again. Anyway, I think the word "unnecessary" is easier to understand than "undesirable" and "extraneous" because these two words both have a similar meaning to "unnecessary".

Also, are we seriously arguing over ONE word? I've already argued with Rhain over the use of the word "former" in the Grand Theft Auto III article and i'm not arguing over a word that actually is easier to understand in that one sentence in the "Soundtrack" section. Please don't insult me or treat me like an idiot. I'm not new to this site anymore. DBZFan30 (talk) 00:06, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

"We" nothing, you are the one who is reverting and now complaining on a talk page about one word. However, words like extraneous or undesirable do help carry the weight that what is not merited is to be actively avoided. Things can be unnecessary without being unwanted, but something not clearly meeting notability guidelines is unwanted as a subject. GRAPPLE 00:09, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

The wording "considered extraneous" is fine. There wasn't anything wrong with it and conveyed what it needed to properly. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 01:06, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

@Favre1fan93: Most people don't even know what "extraneous" means. That's why I tried to make that one sentence easier to understand. DBZFan30 (talk) 01:38, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

You tried to do a bit more than that: you also removed the notability requirement for album articles, and that is principally why I reverted you. If you had just changed the word I probably wouldn't although I agree with Grapple that "unnecessary" is the weakest of the three options put forward. Betty Logan (talk) 01:49, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Extraneous is not an uncommon English word. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 02:09, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Indeed. It's a perfectly cromulent word that embiggens the MOS. Lugnuts 07:34, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Favre1fan93, @Lugnuts: I need proof that "extraneous" is not an uncommon word. Give me a reliable source that heavily uses the word or a quote from any film, TV show, video game, or anime that contains the word "extraneous" in it. DBZFan30 (talk) 11:08, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm rather curious as to what you're planning to do if no such proof is provided. Start an RfC? The burden isn't on anyone else to prove to you that extraneous is common terminology, but on you to achieve consensus for your change if you wish it to be incorporated. In any case, I'm sure you can find a reliable source here. Good hunting! DonIago (talk) 14:47, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

And let's not forget that the Simple English Misplaced Pages exists for those readers with limited English vocabularies. Betty Logan (talk) 18:27, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

@Doniago: @Betty Logan: How about "irrelevant" or "off-topic"? Which one sounds better to you? DBZFan30 (talk) 18:44, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Those words do not mean the same thing as "extraneous". GRAPPLE 18:51, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

@Grapple X: There has to be some sort of word that can replace "extraneous". DBZFan30 (talk) 18:55, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Actually, no, there doesn't have to be any replacement. There is nothing wrong with it as is, as can be seen from the fact that you're the only one trying to change it. GRAPPLE 18:57, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

@Grapple X: I disagree. Every word has at least one replacement. This is why Misplaced Pages will always be an unfair and unreliable source. DBZFan30 (talk) 19:02, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

You can disagree all you want, and that's perfectly fine. That's why we have talk pages. But, the fact that you are one dissenting voice in the face of a consensus in favour of the status quo here means that your obstinacy alone will not change anything. And please, there's no need to ping me, I can use a watchlist. GRAPPLE 19:05, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

@Grapple X: Misplaced Pages has no official policies. Everything on this site is made up by random people, including the policies. I don't trust anyone on the Internet, but I treat everyone with respect. I just want one word changed to make one sentence easier to understand for everyone. That's it. I don't understand why you, Lugnuts, Doniago, Betty Logan, Favre1fan93 and many others have to disagree with my suggestions that can actually make this site a better place for research. As I said at the beginning of this discussion, Please don't insult me or treat me like an idiot. DBZFan30 (talk) 19:29, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm going to be perfectly frank with you. If you cannot work with the concept of consensus, then editing wikipedia is not for you. GRAPPLE 21:07, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

"Everything on this site is made up by random people, including the policies" - Correct. And if you get a WP:CONSENSUS, you can change said policy or policies. Lugnuts 19:32, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

@Grapple X: @Lugnuts: As I said before, Misplaced Pages has no official policies. They can be edited by anyone just like any other page on this site. Just agree with changing "extraneous" to "off-topic" and this discussion will be done for good. I might stop editing Misplaced Pages in the future and focus on writing fictions here. DBZFan30 (talk) 03:04, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages very much has official policies. Don't know where you got the idea that they didn't. As Lugnuts said, if you disagree with said policies, you can form a new consensus to change them. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:46, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Indeed. DBZ, I think you made a significant misstep when you unilaterally made an edit that changed the notability requirement for album articles, and then did not acknowledge...in fact, as near as I can tell you still have not acknowledged...that you made such a significant change to the MoS. For myself, that makes it more difficult to assume good faith with regards to the rest of this. Similarly, I don't feel you should be trivializing the fact that we're arguing over one word, especially as you are the one who initiated this thread.

If I were in your shoes, I would focus my efforts on convincing us, your fellow editors, whom you need to work with, that your word choice...any of them, in fact...will better serve the needs of the project than the existing word choice.

Alternately, or perhaps in addition, I would consider that I may have damaged other editors' faith in me, and work to reestablish that I have the best interests of the project in mind and show that I am willing to work with my fellow editors to make that happen. In that regard, statements such as your declaration that you don't trust anyone are counterproductive (and I might suggest taking a look at WP:AGF). In the end, I might recommend that you consider simply dropping the stick on this matter...since as you yourself said, it is simply about a single word. DonIago (talk) 20:23, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

@Doniago: I will not "drop the stick" (whatever that means) until someone agrees with me. I will not take "no" for an answer or read any of those made-up policies you linked. Just change that one word to "off-topic" and we won't argue over this anymore. DBZFan30 (talk) 03:04, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

You really should drop the stick. Sometimes you just have to take a loss, even if you adamantly disagree with said outcome (such as here, because consensus is not in your favor), and just walk away (especially on a matter such as this about a single word). And even if someone agrees with you, that's not how consensus works, because it's not based on vote counting or majority rule. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:39, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

If you were trying to make me concerned that you're more interested in trolling us than in contributing constructively to Misplaced Pages, statements such as this one were a good way to do so. You 'will not take "no" for an answer'? That type of attitude toward editing here tends to lead to one being stripped of the ability to edit here. DonIago (talk) 13:14, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

The statement that they won't even read the policies that others have linked to indicated WP:BATTLEGROUND, WP:CIR and WP:IDONTLIKEIT problems. MarnetteD|Talk 14:59, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

@Favre1fan93: @Doniago: @MarnetteD: I'm not trolling you! Everything on Misplaced Pages is FAKE! That's the truth right there. There are zero official policies since anyone can change them, just like everything else on any wiki. I still refuse to "drop the stick" or take "no" for an answer. Change that one word in that one sentence immediately. When I stop editing this site, you'll never see my name in anymore edit summaries and signatures, but you shall remember me as "The Notorious D.B.Z." DBZFan30 (talk) 03:50, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, we're not going to change it for a petulant child. The door is that way. ----> Lugnuts 07:04, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

@Lugnuts: Do you even know how old I am? You wouldn't call an autistic teenager a "child", would you? DBZFan30 (talk) 10:58, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Judging by your behavior on here, I'm going to guess 12. Lugnuts 10:59, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

@Lugnuts: You were four years off. If you have nothing nice to say, don't say it at all. Think before you speak. DBZFan30 (talk) 11:04, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

8? Wow. And if you've got nothing constructive to add and insist on throwing your toys out of your pram for not taking no as a reply, then kindly leave. Lugnuts 11:05, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

@Lugnuts: I'm actually 16. DBZFan30 (talk) 11:27, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

I would like to remind everyone that MOS pages are under discretionary sanctions. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 11:29, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

@NinjaRobotPirate: How exactly does that work? I read the page but it is not clear to me. Could you unilaterally place the MOS under a 1RR restriction at your own discretion or do you have to get permission to do so? 1RR for MOS:FILM would not be a bad thing IMO. Betty Logan (talk) 18:34, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Yes, some more info on this would be useful too. I didn't know those sanctions were in place, and their impact here. Thanks. Lugnuts 18:44, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm not experienced with discretionary sanctions, but my understanding is that any unvinvolved administrator can act unilaterally. That would include blocks, topic bans, and instituting 1RR. I get involved in debates here sometimes, so I have to watch out for taking "involved" actions. So, for example, if Lugnuts called me an incompetent jerk and reverted one of my edits, I certainly couldn't topic ban him. You get desysoped for that sort of thing. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 20:04, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Predominant language after nationality

I would like to propose modifying WP:FILMLEAD to mention the film's predominant language in the opening sentence in absence of a singular nationality. For example, Wolf Totem (film) is a Chinese-French co-production, so it would not be accurate to just call it a "Chinese film" in its opening sentence. Instead, I put "Chinese-language film" and later in the lead section explain that it is a Chinese-French co-production. For an example like this, is there any reason not to include the language as the next defining characteristic, if nationality is not singular?

For English-language films that are not of a singular nationality, we should include "English-language" in the opening sentence for a couple of reasons:

1. We should not presume that the absence of a nationality or language means that Misplaced Pages's readers from across the globe should know that a film is English-language. Another editor articulated it well that a film's nationality more often than not indicates that the film uses the country's predominant language. Calling a film American, British, Chinese, French, etc. indicates the predominant language unless needing to establish otherwise, as in the case of Indian films.
2. The predominant language is also a common characteristic in film listings, databases, reviews, etc. Like we have used these sources to establish a film's nationality, we can also use them to establish the predominant language.

What do other editors think? Erik (talk | contrib) 14:25, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

I should mention a couple of recent examples worth highlighting: Dunkirk (2017 film) and Midnight in Paris. Another example I recall is Out of the Dark (2014 film), which is a Colombian-Spanish co-production but English-language. Erik (talk | contrib) 14:30, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Am I reading this right, in that you feel the language should be added if one or more of the following is true?

1. The opening mentions a nationality which does not reflect the film's predominant language.
2. The opening mentions no nationality.
3. The opening mentions more than one nationality.

Thanks for clarifying! If so, I'm inclined to support, though I'd like to hear what other editors have to say. DonIago (talk) 15:12, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

I would say #3 usually leads to #2. If a film has multiple countries involved, it means simplifying the matter and taking it out. Not sure of an example of #2 where #3 does not apply. Erik (talk | contrib) 18:01, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

I still see a number of film articles where a dual-nationality is used in the opening sentence, though until there's a debate I don't necessarily make changes. Basically my note above was saying "add a language if there's zero or two or more nationalities, but not if there is only one". DonIago (talk) 18:59, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Comment I was under the impression this had already been enacted following the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Film/Archive_12#WP:FILMLEAD_tweak. However, it seems the proposed wording by NinjaRobotPirate was never installed. Perhaps we could just put that into the MOS? basically it all coms down to the same thing: if the primary language isn't obvious then it should be stated in the lead. Betty Logan (talk) 23:07, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Support. I don't see any damage in having a statement such as (for example): Midnight Schnaps in Budapest is a 2018 English-language, German-Hungarian romantic comedy film by Werner Herskó. Pyxis Solitary (talk) 09:21, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

First you can't have two countries in the lead, the guide is if there is more to one then omit altogether, and two, you see no problem with there being 4 pointless words in that sentence before getting to what the film actually is? Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 10:29, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

"you see no problem with there being 4 pointless words in that sentence before getting to what the film actually is?" - No, I don't. I believe in providing information, not excluding information. "4 pointless words" ... you'd think they were 4 paragraphs and that Misplaced Pages exploded into flames because of it. Histrionics don't float my boat, so I'm outta here. Pyxis Solitary (talk) 08:36, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose - It doesn't matter what language it is in, if it's in Japanese (and listed in the infobox) there will be english subtitles for it. The language is not important to reading the article nor is it, in the modern day, an impediment to understanding the film itself. There is absolutely no need for this to be added to the opening of any media article, not just film. What benefit is there to stating on the English wikipedia that Dunkirk is an English-language film? There's none. Oppose completely and utterly for pointless puffery, like stating all the countries that may have loaned a portion of money to a film's production in the opening (Looking at you Dunkirk). EDIT: " Calling a film American, British, Chinese, French, etc. indicates the predominant language" So by this logic, Dunkirk is a primarily English language, french language, german language film? No. We're creating an issue to compensate for basic common sense and the infobox which directly states what language the film is. Other sites DO act as a database, we're not a database, such minutiae is covered adequately in the infobox, it doesn't need to be a part of the opening sentence, nor does the nationality of the myriad nations tangentially involved.Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 10:28, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

  So you're in favor of not stating the nationality at all either? The predominant language is suggested to serve as a similar basis. Not sure your point on Dunkirk. It is going to be primarily English-language. It is a good question about what to do with films with multiple languages, that the rest of us can discuss. Erik (talk | contrib) 13:50, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

  A single nationality is fine if necessary, though I don't think it is, but multiple nationalities completely not. It is not of any benefit to a reader to know that Mad Max Fury Road is an American-Australian production, it's set in an unspecified wasteland, it isn't inherently Australian or American in the culture it displays and it isn't as if America and Australia are at war and somehow funding a film together is some great logistical achievement that crosses barriers of race and creed. Yet the argument over it's inclusion that resulted in "American-Australian" being inserted into the lead resulted purely of a jingoistic purpose. It's seen in how many times people mess around deciding which country belongs in the infobox because they all want to take ownership of the final product. It's different to say something like Azumi (film) is Japanese in the lead because a) it is a single nation product, and b) stating that it is Japanese is actually saying a lot about what type of film you are getting because the type of film is culturally distinct to a traditional western film. But these cases are outliers given the all encompassing nature of western film.

  But I digress since I've gone on a lot about countries there. My point with Dunkirk is that in your opening argument you state that labelling a film as British, Chinese, French, etc indicates a predominant language. Yet the opening of Dunkirk calls it an American, Netherlands, and like two other countries production, but there is no implied assumption that it is predominantly presented in a language relevant to any of them and it has no bearing on understanding of the article since it is presented in English on the English Misplaced Pages. The predominant spoken language is a technical detail and it is already mentioned in the infobox. Putting it 4th in the opening sentence doesn't help and it's attempting to solve a small problem (people making strange assumptions about the film's spoken language when it's presented right there on the page in the infobox) by enacting a site-wide policy change. Enacting this change would embolden any user to add spoken language to every single film article on the site with no argument to stop it. There's no reason to try and enact a guideline change when you should just be able to do this on an individual basis in the 0.000001% of cases it would ever actually matter.

  TLDR; there is no reason to add the language spoken because there is no reason people should be assuming the language based on the 50 companies involved in a film's production or the actors involved or the directors involved or the props involved. And there's no reason to listen all the nations involved in the lead either. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 14:25, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

  What about something like Alien Convenant where the BFI says it's Australian, United Kingdom, American and New Zealand? All countries that are primarily English? Would you still feel that in lieu of nations that the article should open with English Language? Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 20:26, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

• Comment - Not really sure where I fall on this, but I guess there are cases where mentioning this instead of a country of origin could be useful. But in general, I think most film articles (that I am involved with) should stick to saying "American film" rather than "English-language film". - adamstom97 (talk) 11:59, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

  Yes, I am not suggesting replacing "American film" with "English-language film". I am saying for films with multiple countries involved, we would state the language instead. For example, The White Ribbon is a co-production between Germany, Austria, France and Italy, and we can't just say "German-Austrian-French-Italian film" in the opening sentence. It implies false equivalence, and "German-language film" is more suitable. Erik (talk | contrib) 13:50, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

  Okay, I think I support that then. - adamstom97 (talk) 22:44, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

• Comment @Erik: To add to your initial premise. I would say "Chinese-language" is blatantly ambiguous, since I assume we're dealing with spoken language it should state Mandarin-language, Cantonese, Hokkien, and so forth. The same is already done in the infobox, so if we're to bring it into the lead section, why increase the ambiguity? DA1 (talk) 17:57, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

  You're right about that. This was not a good example after all. I've removed the erroneous term. Erik (talk | contrib) 18:06, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Plot length in film series articles

I seem to recall we had some guidelines on how long to make the plot summary of each film in a film franchise article but can't seem to find whatever it is that I think I'm remembering. SO far my archive search fu is turning up nothing both here and at WT:FILM. I've recently noticed several franchise articles that have used the transclude tag to just pull the full plot over from the individual film articles. I completely see the appeal of this method but at the same time, it ends up being a lot of plot and I'd swear we've talked about this before. Perhaps this is something we might address in the MOS? I'm inclined to recommend a range of 100-300 words, myself. For an example of what I mean, see The Fast and the Furious. That's the only one I have bookmarked though I'm certain I've see it elsewhere, recently. Millahnna (talk) 23:26, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

I don't know about any previous discussion on the matter, but on film franchise articles, only a basic overview plot is really necessary (ie the log line or the general plot overview used for the lead). See List of Marvel Cinematic Universe films as an example of this. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 23:43, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

@Millahnna: It's at WP:FILMPLOT. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:01, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

You're the best. Thanks. Millahnna (talk) 00:12, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

Wait... That doesn't specifically address series articles. I'm still planning on pruning at Fast & Furious I'm just wondering if we should throw a sentence into that part of the MOS to make some suggestions for franchise articles. Favre1fan93's reply to me would essentially do the job. Millahnna (talk) 00:15, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

You are right M about that being a good idea. This isn't the only thing that has come up recently about film series. I might be a good idea to add a separate section to MOSFILM about them. Until then anyone wants to post a possible wording about this here please feel free to do so. Then others can offer their input and it can be added in the appropriate place. MarnetteD|Talk 00:28, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

I'd be fine with anything. WP:TVPLOT has some useful guidelines for their project. Since it's similar content (serialized stories), I sometimes refer to the TV MOS when I need inspiration on how to deal with film series articles. It could also help us come up with wording for our own MOS if we decide to include specific guidance about serialized fiction. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:31, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

LISTGAP compliant cast list formatting

Hi all. Per a discussion at WT:FILM (perma link here) that stemmed from some discussions at MOS:TV on cast list formatting with line breaks and MOS:LISTGAP, I have created the new template {{Cast list break}}. This template creates the sometimes desired formatting of putting character descriptions on a new line when the text wraps to a second line, but does not produce the screen reader issue that was encountered previously (see template examples for this). If there are any questions on the template, please comment here or drop me a line on my talk. We should add this into WP:FILMCAST as Adamstom.97 originally intended to alert users to the LISTGAP issue; this template provides an alternative. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:44, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Box Office Mojo is being widely misinterpreted

Many editors (and consequently readers) are widely misinterpreting Box Office Mojo for worldwide tallies; particularly when it comes to foreign-films, or domestic small-budget films that receive a theatrical run overseas. On BOM pages, there is a section titled "Foreign total", which is indicated with n/a in the case of incomplete data.

Take for example: The Departed or Tron Legacy, major films with "Foreign totals" of and , respectively. In contrast to, say Bleed for This (n/a) or Yakuza Apocalpyse (n/a). The latter of which, it only has records for 1 theater ($12,756).

Yet, I had come across article Yakuza Apocalypse which had that incomplete figure ($12,756) listed under Box Office, which I subsequently edited. And today came across Bleed for This which described it as "a box office disappointment, grossing just $6.7 million against its $6 million budget" – despite there being no Box Office tally for the film available for us to confirm (except domestic: $5,083,906, per BOM).

In cases, BOM will not include tallies for entire regions. Take for example The Raid (2011) which doesn't even include figures for its country of origin, Indonesia, or for Japan where it was also released (ザレイド) late in the year. The same is true for its sequel, where the data is further incomplete. But BOM is generous to specify such deficiencies when it indicates n/a in its tally. However, it is frequently ignored (I assume by mistake) and misrepresented on articles.

I would like to bring the WikiProject's attention to this; perhaps it is noteworthy enough to mention within the WP:MOSFILM (similar to where it states to avoid Rotten Tomatoes' "Top Critics" since it varies by region/user). In the same vein, editors should avoid worldwide BO's when there is no complete figure available – and not make up their own tallies from available limited figures with accompanying inference (success, disappointment, loss). - DA1 (talk) 19:09, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

@Erik:, Lugnuts, Millahnna, MapReader, Betty Logan, NinjaRobotPirate, et al.

I don't often play in this end of the film article editing (unless there's a run on sentence or something) but what you're saying makes sense to me. I seem to recall us running into something similar in regards to critical reception some years back where some films didn't have very conclusive listings and reviews on the various aggregate sites but were being written up as though they did (which is probably how we ended up with that notation about ROtten Tomatoes that you mention). I'm wondering, and those of you with more experience in this area please correct me if I'm way off base, if this is something we can address at least partially in the prose of an article itself. BOM, reports that the film earned $#### in countries x, y, and z but only has data for blah and blah. Am I making any sense? Erik, Lug, Betty and Ninja will likely have better thoughts than me on this. They do more of the in depth editing on articles than I do. I just poke at the text when the writing is terribad. Millahnna (talk) 19:18, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

@Millahnna: Thanks for your response. I am unaware of who was an expert in what. I decided to tag some of the active contributors in the discussions above, and get the ball rolling. I think your idea of 'elaborating' the available figures for countries is a good idea; though discretion should be made that given the overall n/a the countries listed (numbers) may be incomplete themselves; From my personal inference i think BOM loses track for films that are released across regions over a wide timespan. And in the case of foreign-films without a major domestic theatrical distribution (e.g., Yakuza Apocalypse) doesn't include overseas figures at all. DA1 (talk) 19:36, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, stuff like this comes up every so often. People misinterpret aggregators and databases to be conclusive about things they're simply not saying. I've probably screwed up a few times, too, especially when citing databases I'm not familiar with. I try to clean up stuff like "box office disappointment" when I find it, though. It's obviously original research, and you can't simply decide based on the gross whether a film is a "success" or "disappointment". For one thing, the gross is shared with the exhibitors, and it may not include all territories (as mentioned above). We probably should have some kind of guidance on this somewhere. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 19:43, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

As a note, the guy most responsible for this, Easy4me (talk · contribs), is indefinitely blocked. If you see someone mass-adding foreign grosses in ways that are inappropriate, it could be a sock puppet of Easy4me. I think I already blocked all the existing socks, but a new one sometimes pops up once one of my range blocks expires. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 19:55, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

• Comment I am aware of this problem. It often comes up on older Hollywood films too, and there is a tangential discussion about missing Star Trek gross figures at Talk:List_of_highest-grossing_films#Problem_with_Star_Trek_Data that may be of interest to editors involved in this discussion. I disagree with the suggestion that we omit "incomplete" data because I believe we should provide as much complete data as possible. If that data only comes from a couple of countries then that can be qualified in the box office section. The bigger problem of editors making qualitative assessments of a film's success is an ongoing problem and one that plagues complete data just as much as it does incomplete data. For instance, a film's gross falling short of its budget doesn't necessarily make a film unsuccessful and a gross exceeding the budget doesn't necessarily make it a success; their are other revenue streams such as home video, merchandies and TV which should be taken into account as well as profit shares and marketing costs. In short editors should not be making claims about how successful a film was based on their own interpretation of the financials. MOS:FILM#Box office instructs to "Determine a consensus from objective (retrospective if possible) sources about how a film performed and why, but editors should avoid drawing their own conclusions about the success or failure of the film." Any unsourced original research about the success of the film should be removed from the article and if anyone challenges/reverts your removal you should direct them to MOS:FILM. Betty Logan (talk) 21:02, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

@Betty Logan: Agreed, a film's "success" isn't simply on box office, but also home video and int'l distribution licensing (though one could argue Merchandise is distinct from the film's success). When you say that available data should be included; how do you go about doing that?

Should for example Yakuza Apocalypse's article's Box Office state $12,756? Wouldn't that be misinforming the reader who may assume that's a full tally. Or would it be more appropriate, in Bleed for This's case the infobox state $5,083,906 (US, Canada)? While 'elaborating' any additional information of the available overseas country figures in the "Release" or "Theatrical run" section? After all, you can't elaborate everything in the infobox or lead section, without being misconstrued by the reader. -DA1 (talk) 23:43, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

The infobox is only ever meant to be a basic summary. It's great when that tells the whole story, but sometimes it doesn't. If the total comes from just a couple of countries you could probably get away with putting those in brackets after the figure; alternatively you could add a note if you think it would help. But my approach would be to provide the most complete figure available and then provide the context in the box-office section. Betty Logan (talk) 22:29, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• Comment - I would say that some caveat should be added addressing this. I see similar things with Rotten Tomatoes and older films. People will add RT scores for films from the 80s and 90s, when RT wasn't even around, and use that to justify a critical reaction aggregate. For instance, if you look at what RT says about the original Friday the 13th now, it is in no way close to how it was received in 1980. I think that the box office information can be (unintentionally) misrepresented in the same way. It's something we should give some guidance on, so that editors at least have something to point to.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 23:44, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

  I tend to agree with this. The critical reception should reflect the reception at the time of release and the aggregators don't always reflect the contemporary reception for older films. Vertigo was a critical failure on its intial release but has 97% on Rotten Tomatoes and that is mainly due to modern reviews. WP:AGG#Limitations warns about this. Personally I would limit the use of aggregators to current films for initial reception because I don't really see the point of adding them to articles about older films when better analysis is often available. Betty Logan (talk) 22:37, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

  @Bignole,Betty Logan: So seemingly {Rotten Tomatoes} was started in 1998; perhaps a guideline could be made that any film older than say 4 years prior to RT's startup (that would be 1995 or earlier) should not be used to represent "critical response" except to indicate modern (retrospective) critical reception to the film. And the same be applied to other notable critic aggregators. That way editors and inturn readers are aware of what they're looking at, and how to properly edit/elaborate the language of the article. DA1 (talk) 20:23, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

  Bignole is discussing Rotten Tomatoes not Box Office Mojo in this case. I tabled a RFC a year or two ago stating that Rotten Tomatoes should only be used for current (i.e. twenty-first century) films but it failed to pass. That's not to say it is mandated though. Generally speaking, if they are included on older films it should be made clear it is not necessarily reflective of the initial reception. Betty Logan (talk) 22:57, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Betty Logan, That was a brainfart. I've reworded my comment. Please read it again. And what do you think about this discussion? Should we do an RFC for this here; What's the best way to get things done? DA1 (talk) 01:03, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

• Comment – BOM has always been North America-centric and iffy about non-domestic films, but ever since Amazon bought it, keeping track of foreign totals has deteriorated. Take Their Finest (released 21 April 2017) as an example: The Numbers reports a current worldwide b.o. (domestic and international) of $11.3 million; while BOM reports a gross of $3.5 million...for domestic only.

There should be a warning in MOS about relying on BOM. Pyxis Solitary (talk) 07:00, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• Project-Class film pages
• WikiProject Film articles
• WikiProject Film talk pages