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The contents of the Roundup page were merged into Glyphosate on 26 August, 2012. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Glyphosate article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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section on Round Up

Why do you re-direct to here from Round Up? Round up is a mixture of many chemicals some of which are more harmful than Glyphosate. Claustro123 (talk) 00:18, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Hit us with some well sourced facts, and you could prove that claim. HiLo48 (talk) 02:26, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

However real facts may make little difference if you expect any changes to this article. Check the previous discussions. Gandydancer (talk) 02:51, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

I always though RoundUp was just a commercial variety of Glyphosate, but am happy to be convinced it's more than that. If it is different, I would support creation of a new article. HiLo48 (talk) 03:01, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

HiLo, at one time there were two articles. There should be two because the additives to glyphosate that turn it into RoundUp (though there are now numerous similar products) have been named as the possible cause for what some believe to cause health problems. However, many of the studies that have been done are done with glyphosate alone, and to further complicate things RoundUp will not give a list of what they've added calling it a trade secret (they are not the only ones that can legally do this). I think what I've said here is mostly correct but I no longer bother to keep up with new info or work on any Monsanto article since it's a waste of time IMO. Gandydancer (talk) 03:36, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

If the components of RoundUp are a secret, I can't see how we can write an article on them, nor blame them for problems. Reliable sources are what we need here. HiLo48 (talk) 04:19, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Half of the ingredients are secret. Just like the ingredients of Coca Cola yet you list Coca Cola.. Source is here.http://www.roundup.ca/_uploads/documents/msds/RoundupWeatherMaxTransorb2TechnologyLiquid-12452-EN-CA.518.pdf

Claustro123 (talk) 17:48, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

I don't know if this is RS or not - it's just the first thing that came up when I googled it. But at any rate, it will help you to become familiar with what's going on (I think - I haven't read it). Gandydancer (talk) 04:31, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Well, it's Russian. That's not automatically bad, but they are unlikey to write glowing stuff about a big American corporation. I still see problems with the secrecy of the ingredients. Hard to write about stuff we don't know. HiLo48 (talk) 04:46, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

LOL, yes I see that I could not have made a worse choice if I tried. Here's what they have to say about the current Trump/Putin ongoings: Google it and you will find plenty as the ongoing lawsuit has put it in the news. Gandydancer (talk) 04:56, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Well comrades, I read , and it's old news (and please don't anyone accuse me of being uninterested in real facts). The source is an opinion piece as opposed to a news report, and much of it is about the lawsuits over the emails, a topic about which we recently expanded what the page says. As for the other ingredients being toxic, the only scientific study mentioned by the source, and it is presented as being very important, is none other than the long-ago discredited Séralini study. Unless Misplaced Pages is switching over to alternative facts, I'm not seeing anything to add to the page. But if an actual reliable source emerges, I would definitely want us to cover it. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:49, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

You seem to have just skipped the part where I made fun of the Russian article. After reading their version of the current Russia/US political situation I didn't bother to waste my time reading it because my time is more valuable than that. Gandydancer (talk) 17:50, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

No, I understand you on that and I didn't mean it that way, just making clear what I think about this stuff. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:57, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

How about "Round Up Power Max" or "Round Up Weather Max" as listed here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Claustro123 (talk • contribs) 17:26, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Those are just trade names that we generally don't create separate articles for. Pesticide trade names are a dime a dozen in terms of the same or similar formulations getting rebranded. We generally stick with the active ingredient as the article title and mention trade names if there's anything of particular note with it there instead. There hasn't been anything new that would really warrant a split at this point though. Kingofaces43 (talk) 21:16, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

• There is already consensus for a separate round-up article, it just needs someone to do it. The main problem is that some editors who have strongly advocated for a split are doing so because they want to create a POV fork more than an actual encyclopedic article. AIRcorn (talk) 00:26, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Sir. I just returned from a visit to Wall Mart and while there I looked at the Round Up on their shelves. I found 4 separate mixtures that ranged from1% glyphosate to 50% glyphosate. The mixtures I found were Round Up 365, Round Up Super Concentrate, Round Up Extended Control and Round Up Concentrate Plus. I would like to respectfully suggest that the Product "Round Up" should have it's own page as Glyphosate is also used in other weed control products such as Monsanto's Vision. Claustro123 (talk) 18:11, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

That is actually justification for not splitting, and we don't decide WP:N by looking at Walmart products with the same active ingredient. As already mentioned above, pesticide products often get tons of different trade names and formulations. Us agriculture educators even need to point this out to farmers at seminars, etc., with respect to preventing pesticide resistance, so it's no surprise the general public gets confused by all the trade names as well. Generally, notable trade names, such as Roundup, get mentioned in the lead of the article, and that's about it. If another company becomes well known for their glyphosate formulation, that too will be mentioned here. Plus, a split would be redundant since nearly all of the information at this article would still remain here. A split isn't functionally improving anything at this point. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:06, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Removal of cohort study

@IntoThinAir: Could you please elaborate on your removal of a large cohort study? --Leyo 12:20, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

The text makes a medical claim, so its sources need to pass WP:MEDRS. A primary study such as the one cited fails WP:MEDRS. Review articles would be one type of source that would pass MEDRS. IntoThinAir (formerly Everymorning) talk 12:37, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

There was a (free) commentary piece in the journal when the study was published. SmartSE (talk) 13:55, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

That's great. But it also does not meet MEDRS as it is a commentary, not a review article. IntoThinAir (formerly Everymorning) talk 03:50, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

There is a large difference between selling the result of a cohort study as a fact and describing that a large cohort study found xyz. While I agree that the former is not acceptable, I don't generally concerning the latter. --Leyo 08:03, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Either way, we don't do either when it comes to WP:MEDRS since we're all anonymous editors here who can't engage in peer-review or follow-up critique of primary sources (more on that here). Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:20, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

That does not address my point. --Leyo 20:49, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Unless I'm missing something, you said you don't agree describing that a large cohort study found xyz isn't acceptable. That's what I'm saying goes against MEDRS. Kingofaces43 (talk) 22:54, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

You simple call it a primary study and you do not differentiate on how the results are presented. --Leyo 14:15, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

That would go against the standard convention that is used with WP:MEDRS. In general, the only time primary studies are used in medical topics is if we're also citing it alongside a review that discusses it for reference. Kingofaces43 (talk) 15:41, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Lawsuit

Just a reminder since we've had previous conversations on this, but the current glyphosate/cancer lawsuits are not something we've had consensus to include yet. Part of the caution is contradicting the current WP:MEDRS sources that say glyphosate is not a significant carcinogen. Someone filing a lawsuit is not enough to contradict that in terms of WP:WEIGHT. The bigger one though is that it's an ongoing lawsuit. Once has to be wary of ambulance chasing in a topic like this as it is, but until claims are considered to be valid in a completed cased, we're not really in a place to be showcasing claims in ongoing litigation that's prone to posturing, etc.

That being said, the whole lawsuit thing is tied to the IARC, conflicts of interest there, etc. so there may be areas to include mention of it before the close of the case. Tackling either one is messy, but if it's just mention of the case like I removed here (we're under 1RR which also includes essentially following WP:BRD), it's probably going to be easier on all of us policy-wise when the case is completed. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:15, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm wondering whether we could still have perhaps one sentence about the existence of the suit at this time, without going into the allegations. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:53, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

I was thinking about that if we fit it into the IARC stuff in the last paragraph. The first sentence already mentions it to a degree. Maybe a slight tweak there if any? Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:00, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm dope-slapping myself for having forgotten that we already had that material in that section! Thanks for reminding me. Actually, I think that's OK for now, and a good reason to wait for more resolution in the case before adding more content. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:12, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Does this change anything????? https://oehha.ca.gov/proposition-65/crnr/glyphosate-listed-effective-july-7-2017-known-state-california-cause-cancer Claustro123 (talk) 01:36, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

No, because that list includes pretty much everything, from chloral hydrate, warfarin, and asbestos, to ethyl alcohol, leather dust, aspirin, 'salted fish, Chinese style' and 'emissions from high temperature unrefined rapeseed oil' Sumanuil (talk) 04:28, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Case Resolved

This needs to be added to the page (as discussed above). The merging of RoundUp with Glyphosate needs to be reversed. Glyphosate is not synonymous with RoundUp, and this case is a good reason to finally make the correction I called for a year ago. It is the surfactants in the formulation that are being at least partially blamed for harm to humans. The internal documents show Monsanto is aware of this (pages 5-7 here). This was touched upon in The Nation who quoted one of the internal emails used in the case:

"Plaintiffs claim that Monsanto “knew or should have known that Roundup is more toxic than glyphosate alone” but continued to advertise the product as safe. In a 2002 e-mail, Monsanto product–safety strategist William Heydens wrote to Donna Farmer, one of the company’s leading toxicologists: “What I’ve been hearing from you is that this continues to be the case with these studies—glyphosate is OK but the formulated product (and thus the surfactant) does the damage.”

HuffPost:

Brent Wisner, a lawyer for Johnson, in a statement said jurors for the first time had seen internal company documents “proving that Monsanto has known for decades that glyphosate and specifically Roundup could cause cancer.”

Until RoundUp has its page back, where do you all suggest this be added? petrarchan47คุก 09:05, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

It doesn't belong anywhere in the article. One lawsuit in litigation crazy California is not proof of anything. We are seeing a law firm's perspective. I want to see these "secret" Monsanto documents. HiLo48 (talk) 10:40, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

At a minimum, the case verdict should be covered in Monsanto legal cases and I will add it tomorrow if no one else does first. There is significant coverage of this case. I agree that Roundup and Glyphosate are not synonymous and should have separate articles, and have said so for some time. This case would certainly merit some coverage in the Roundup article if we had one. We are not here to 'prove' anything about glyphosate or Roundup, but instead reflect what reliable sources say about it.Dialectric (talk) 15:16, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

In my opinion, the resolution of the suit (with the caveat that I assume there are likely to be appeals, so this isn't final) does make the suit something that should be covered with some prominence. I'm neutral for the moment about whether it would be better to have it in a history section here versus a separate page about Roundup. But it unquestionably belongs in the legal cases page. I agree strongly with Dialectric that were are not here to 'prove' anything. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:17, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Meaningless statement

This statement is not even wrong, it is completely meaningless in agricultural terms: "Farmers quickly adopted glyphosate, especially after Monsanto introduced glyphosate-resistant Roundup Ready crops, enabling farmers to kill weeds without killing their crops."

A correct statement could be for example "Farmers quickly adopted glyphosate, because it is a broad spectrum herbicide, and thus will kill all green plants sprayed, not only certain groups of weeds. That means fewer rounds in the field, and using less herbicide (with a link to Wiki entry Herbicides, and the difference between broad leaf, narrow leaf, and the more specialized herbicides).

Perhaps followed by "When Monsanto introduced glyphosate-resistant Roundup Ready crops, it enabled farmers to kill weeds even more efficiently, and so use even less herbicide per hectare. In addition, herbicide resistant crops enables so called Conservation Agriculture(link), i.e. reduced tilling, which reduces water and fuel consumption, erosion, as well as carbon emissions. Today, several formulations of glyphosate is the most widely used herbicide in the World." (although even if that is true, it may sound a bit like trying to sell more of it?) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronja R (talk • contribs) 17:03, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

I don't see any problem with the current wording. HiLo48 (talk) 00:59, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

My issue with that sentence is that it ignores the fact that many farmers used glyphosphate before GM crops came out (which wasn't until 1996). I actually like the proposed wording better, but it could be imroved even further. There is too much focus on GM crops when its use is much more broad than that and glyphosphate has been popular and useful for a long time. It is also not supported in the article body, or I can't find where it is supported. AIRcorn (talk) 06:56, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

I'll bet Monsanto could provide supporting material. HiLo48 (talk) 07:20, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Back in May 2018, I suggested on this talk page that the article would benefit from a history section. I found a few sources at that time but didn't go much further with it. I still think that would benefit the article, and can work on one this month. 'Quickly adopted' is imprecise, and I had trouble finding precise historical sales numbers from Monsanto for Roundup alone, though they do have some info on total ag chemical sales. As a side note, I think the archiving is a bit aggressive on this talk page, with discussions only a few months old getting auto-archived, and a level of activity that doesn't necessitate this.Dialectric (talk) 15:10, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I like the idea of a history section. About the archiving, I just slowed it down to six months. (It had said three months but was actually set for 30 days, so that was the problem.) --Tryptofish (talk) 16:20, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Roundup in the news... and it's not good, but should be covered onwiki

Hi I was surprised that the $289m damages story was not to be found onwiki. I heard it on the news in NL and then read the NPR story. For this amount of damages awarded and for international coverage, there should be a place for people to come to for answers. Probably it needs its own page at this point - maybe something like 2018 Roundup vs. Gardener lawsuit? Jane (talk) 17:39, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Please see the discussions just above. I'm inclined to think that the primary treatment of the lawsuit should be in Monsanto legal cases, where it is already being added, as opposed to a standalone page about the one lawsuit. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:20, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

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