Talk:The Protocols of the Elders of Zion: Difference between revisions

Browse history interactively ← Previous edit Next edit →Content deleted Content addedVisual WikitextInline

Revision as of 19:22, 28 November 2019 edit78.55.66.147 (talk) dottynewsy← Previous edit		Revision as of 04:43, 27 December 2019 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk \| contribs)Bots, Template editors2,306,673 editsm Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Talk:The Protocols of the Elders of Zion/Archive 10) (botNext edit →
Line 50:		Line 50:
	Bern Process original sources https://digifindingaids.cjh.org/?pID=477923#a23		Bern Process original sources https://digifindingaids.cjh.org/?pID=477923#a23
	<!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:19, 28 November 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->		<!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:19, 28 November 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

	== Incorrect Claim Per the Citation ==

	This article incorrectly states that Henry Ford printed 500,000 copies of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. The cited source actually states that he published his own compilation of newspaper articles entitled "The International Jew".

	Specifically, the articles states under the "United States" sub-heading: "In the U.S., Henry Ford sponsored the printing of 500,000 copies (in reference to The Protocols), and, from 1920 to 1922, published a series of antisemitic articles titled 'The International Jew: The World's Foremost Problem', in The Dearborn Independent, a newspaper he owned."

	For citation, you reference "Could Henry Ford Have Dreamed a Jew Would Run His Car Company?" at https://forward.com/news/198741/could-henry-ford-have-dreamed-a-jew-would-run-his/. According to this page, "Ford also distributed some 500,000 copies of “The International Jew” across America and, with more lethal effect, published it in Europe, as well." Therefore, it should not be stated that Ford printed any copies of The Protocols.

	Regards,

	] (]) 20:14, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

	:The Protocols were '''''part''''' of the series of articles which were published in book form as "The International Jew". See : <blockquote>The Protocols were publicized in America by Boris Brasol, a former Czarist prosecutor. Auto magnate Henry Ford was one of those who responded to Brasol’s conspiratorial fantasies. "The Dearborn Independent," owned by Ford, published an American version of the Protocols between May and September of 1920 in a series called ‘The International Jew: the World’s Foremost Problem." The articles were later republished in book form with half a million copies in circulation in the United States, and were translated into several foreign languages.</blockquote> ] (]) 03:47, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

	:: That's a very poor source compared to what is available. What does "an American version of the Protocols" actually mean, anyway? You can find sources claiming that the Dearborn Independent serialised the Protocols, but it is not true. Nor does The International Jew contain the Protocols as a whole. If you have a strong stomach you can check for yourself at the Internet Archive. What you will find is original articles that include commentary on the Protocols with quotations from them. Only a fraction of the total is included. Here are more precise descriptions:
	::: "Beginning in 1920 and continuing for nearly two years, the Independent ran a series of ninety-one articles largely based on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, an authorless document purporting to lay out the Jewish plan for world domination." (article on DI in Antisemitism — A Historical Encyclopedia of Prejudice and Persecution, ed. ], p163).
	::: "Commencing on May 22, 1920, in Henry Ford’s Dearborn Independent, the widely-publicized articles fully exploited the Protocols, dwelling week after week on the clear and present danger posed to American institutions by international Jewry. Rather than merely reprinting the Protocols, William Cameron, the paper’s editor and the person generally believed to be the author of the anti-Jewish articles, elucidated upon them as 'the most comprehensive program for world subjugation that has ever come to public knowledge.'" (Robert Singerman, The American Career of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, American Jewish History; Sep 1, 1981; pp48–)
	::: "Rather than printing all The Protocols in a single 'text,' these writers used shorter articles that mixed parts of the infamous forgery with local, national, and international news items." (M. Hasian, Understanding the power of conspiratorial rhetoric: A case study of the protocols of the elders of Zion, Communication Studies, 48:3, 195-214.)
	:: ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 11:50, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
	:: Neither an anonymous article on the ADL web site, nor an article in The Forward that doesn't mention the Protocols at all, is a suitable source for this page. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 13:13, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
	::: If you don't think that the ADL is a reliable source, I suggest you open a discussion on RSN, where it has always been accepted as one. ] (]) 15:15, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
	::: Why should I waste my time debating one source when we have others whose reliability is beyond question? ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 15:59, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

	== Merge from ] ==		== Merge from ] ==
Line 78:		Line 55:
	This person is of no interest other than his association with the Protocols; let's clean up another of one Ludvikus' messes. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 15:48, 9 October 2019 (UTC)		This person is of no interest other than his association with the Protocols; let's clean up another of one Ludvikus' messes. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 15:48, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
	: Seems reasonable. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 11:58, 27 November 2019 (UTC)		: Seems reasonable. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 11:58, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

	== Requests for clarification ==

	1) '''Political conspiracy background''', 2nd para : ‘Brafman claimed…that the qahal continued to exist in secret…’
	I cannot find any reference to ‘the qahal’ being abolished. It is also not clear whether there was one qahal or whether the various local qahals were independent of each other.

	2) '''Political conspiracy background''', 3rd para
	‘In 1928, Siegfried Passarge, a geographer active in the Third Reich, translated it into German.’
	The Third Reich did not exist in 1928. What exactly is meant?

	3) '''Political conspiracy background''', 4th para
	‘Millingen was a British subject…. served as an officer in the Ottoman Army, where he was born.’
	Where was Millingen born?

	] (]) 22:13, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

	== Misleading inf in infobox re plagiarisation ==		== Misleading inf in infobox re plagiarisation ==

Revision as of 04:43, 27 December 2019

Skip to table of contents

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10Auto-archiving period: 30 days

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.

This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on March 19, 2006.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
September 27, 2005	Peer review	Reviewed
February 23, 2006	Featured article candidate	Promoted
November 12, 2009	Featured article review	Demoted

Current status: Former featured article

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Jewish history High‑importance

	Judaism portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Books

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Books. To participate in the project, please visit its page, where you can join the project and discuss matters related to book articles. To use this banner, please refer to the documentation. To improve this article, please refer to the relevant guideline for the type of work.BooksWikipedia:WikiProject BooksTemplate:WikiProject BooksBook

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Russia: Language & literature / History / Religion / Demographics & ethnography High‑importance

	Russia portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Misplaced Pages. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the language and literature of Russia task force.
	This article is supported by the history of Russia task force.
	This article is supported by the religion in Russia task force.
	This article is supported by the demographics and ethnography of Russia task force.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Politics Low‑importance

	Politics portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Alternative views

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative views, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of significant alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion.Alternative viewsWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative viewsTemplate:WikiProject Alternative viewsAlternative views
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Skepticism High‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Template:WP1.0

This page is not a forum for general discussion about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion at the Reference desk.

view · edit Frequently asked questions

Q: Why does the first sentence of the article say the Protocols is fraudulent? Aren't Misplaced Pages articles supposed to be neutral?

A: Misplaced Pages articles are absolutely required to maintain a neutral point of view. It has long been established that this work is fraudulent; its author(s) plagiarized a work of fiction, changing the original, Gentile characters into the secret leaders of a Jewish conspiracy. That plagiarized, fictional material is presented as though it were fact. That constitutes a literary fraud.

Q: So Misplaced Pages is saying that there was not a secret Jewish conspiracy to rule the world?

A: That is an entirely separate issue from the established fact that the Protocols is fraudulent.

Q: Why not let the reader decide for him- or herself whether the document is fraudulent or not? Doesn't drawing conclusions constitute WP:OR?

A: The article does not draw any conclusions; journalists drew the conclusion in 1921, and numerous scholars have reaffirmed it since then. It is not original research to state that the the Protocols is fraudulent; it is a well-established scholarly fact, as documented and sourced in the article. Numerous similar examples exist throughout Misplaced Pages; for example, the Hitler diaries are demonstrably fake, and the WP article says so—and sources it.

Q: But if the fraud is a well-established fact, why do some groups still assert that the Protocols is a genuine document?

A: It is difficult to answer why anyone still believes that the Protocols is a real document, other than to say that some people have beliefs that are simply immune to facts (Exhibit A: Holocaust deniers). To those whose minds are made up, it makes no difference that the Protocols have been debunked countless times—or that so much incriminating Holocaust evidence survives that a dozen museums can't hold it all.

Q: But you can't disprove the contention that a bunch of Jews got together sometime in the mid-19th century and plotted a conspiracy, can you?

A: As already stated, the conspiracy issue is not relevant to this article. But to answer your question, if one was told that the Moon is a giant ball of Gouda cheese covered with a foot-thick layer of dirt, it would be their responsibility to prove them.

Archives

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10

This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 3 sections are present.

missing references

Michael Hagemeister, https://en.wikipedia.org/Michael_Hagemeister Hanna Arendt, Origins of Totaliarism, https://en.wikipedia.org/The_Origins_of_Totalitarianism Bern Process original sources https://digifindingaids.cjh.org/?pID=477923#a23 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.55.66.147 (talk) 19:19, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

Merge from Mikhail Raslovlev

This person is of no interest other than his association with the Protocols; let's clean up another of one Ludvikus' messes. --jpgordon 15:48, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Seems reasonable. Zero 11:58, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Misleading inf in infobox re plagiarisation

I came to this article knowing nothing about the Protocols except it was an antisemitic hoax. I was astonished, and somewhat shocked, to find that the document had originally been written by Alexander Dumas, who I knew mostly from The Three Musketeers. I had had no idea he was antisemitic. Of course, when I read the article, I found that the infobox was completely misleading: what had been plagiarised was a scene about ‘the affair of the diamond necklace’. I do not think it likely that I am the only person who was misled in this way. I do think it likely that many people never read beyond the infobox and the introduction. So, many people will leave this article thinking that the author of The Three Musketeers wrote The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

The purpose of Misplaced Pages is to inform its readers, not to mislead them. Sweet6970 (talk) 09:32, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

I agree with you and support your change. Actually the main source, Joly, doesn't mention Jews at all. Zero 11:44, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Categories: