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*'''Oppose''' "...laziness is a trait in blacks." is not an accusation of racism. It's racism. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;">] ]</span> 21:23, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' "...laziness is a trait in blacks." is not an accusation of racism. It's racism. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;">] ]</span> 21:23, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - This article is not about accusations; it's about Trump's 45 year documented history of racially-provocative remarks and racially-motivated actions. The word "accusations" is an ] in this context, and completely inappropriate for a neutral encyclopedia. We are obligated to adhere to ], ], and ]. This is not creative writing where we try to turn the tables on reliable sources and try to make the so-called accusers look like the bad guys.- ]] 🖋 21:37, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - This article is not about accusations; it's about Trump's 45 year documented history of racially-provocative remarks and racially-motivated actions. The word "accusations" is an ] in this context, and completely inappropriate for a neutral encyclopedia. We are obligated to adhere to ], ], and ]. This is not creative writing where we try to turn the tables on reliable sources and try to make the so-called accusers look like the bad guys.- ]] 🖋 21:37, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
:::According to whom? Journalists who are biased against him? Meh. It is what it is - opinion, not fact. <sup>]]]</sup> 22:10, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
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RFC: Alleged
I think we can safely close this with a "reject". There is some support, but the very term is deemed problematic by many editors. There may be some support for a "person x said Trump said this" kind of thing, but "alleged has muddied those waters considerably, it seems to me. For the record: I do not see in this discussion where the "he said she said" (who is "she"?) is at--unnamed sources present at the meeting say he said it, Durbin says he said it, Graham says (or clearly suggests) he said it, but the "other side", from reading over these comments, really doesn't deny as much as they don't recall, which is not the same thing. Drmies (talk) 02:17, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Support - All but two of the source in that section refer to the event as alleged or a variation of that. There are also 3 people that deny it even happened. Finally it is a "he said she said" event with no good way of knowing for sure what happened. PackMecEng (talk) 01:45, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
An analysis of good available sources would be more informative than simply looking at the sources cited in a section of the article.- MrX 🖋
Agreed and from what I can tell most of them back up my point. I choose to stick with the sources listed in the article already since that is what we have gave weight to include from. PackMecEng (talk) 15:04, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Per WP:V Neutrality: If there is disagreement between sources, use in-text attribution: "John Smith argues that X, while Paul Jones maintains that Y," followed by an inline citation." 12:21, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
There is no substantive disagreement between sources. Most (reliable) sources factually state that the comment was made, and some sources note that a couple of people in attendance disputed that Trump referred to "shithole countries", but they could not recall what was actually said. Think about that for a moment...- MrX 🖋 12:40, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
It depends on what sources you're reading - the disagreement is also in the cited sources wherein there are opposing views, and that is a fact. To handpick only the views that allege he said it without including the claims that claim he did not say it is noncompliant per WP:V and WP:NPOV. Fact - it is an allegation, and both views should be included per WP:V using intext attribution...unless wider consensus decides to change that policy. 14:05, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
If there are sources that state that Trump did not say "shithole countries", then please present them. No, we don't present "both views" when one view has been roundly discredited, including by a respected Senator in an oversight committee hearing. For the avoidance of doubt, when someone swears up and down that somebody did not say something, and then says that they don't recall" what was said, that person is lying.- MrX 🖋 16:26, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
MrX, with all due respect, you are mistaken. Here is one, “I did not hear that word used,” Nielsen said under oath, about “shithole.”VOX - "under oath". Pretty powerful statement, I'd say. And there's the statement by two highly respected Congressmen that was published in Huff: Perdue told ABC’s “This Week” that the press was offering a “gross misrepresentation” of the president’s comments. Cotton agreed with Perdue, releasing a joint statement saying they did not recall the vulgar language described by the press.Huffington Post publishing an ABC "This Week" report. To say the sources don't exist is incorrect. 18:24, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
Support Durbin's version has been disputed reputably by at least three individuals who were also there. -- ψλ ● ✉✓02:18, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
@Winkelvi: Durbin's account has been disputed, but can you show a few sources that say it's been "disputed reputably"? That seems the opposite of what almost ever source is saying and not at all compatible with the reality of the public testimony and cross examination of Kirstjen Nielsen in which she quite plainly lied under oath.. Also, Cotton and Perdue.- MrX 🖋 14:04, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
If you want to bully and WP: BLUDGEON, try it with someone else who might take the bait. Or comment where you place your own !vote. I'm not interested in arguing endlessly with you or anyone over this. -- ψλ ● ✉✓14:10, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Umm... I was merely asking if you could back up your comments. You're free not to answer it if you can't or if you don't want to. Sorry if you interpreted my question as bludgeoning or bullying. 😕 - MrX 🖋 14:18, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Reject. While we should cite sources accurately, including their wording, we should not ADD "alleged" or other such weasel words when paraphrasing or using Misplaced Pages's voice. This case is so clear that only those who are known to constantly lie (Trump and those scared sycophants around him) are denying he said it. Several of those who were there attest that he said it, and he even bragged that it would gain him support among his followers, but then he started changing his tune. (It took 48 hrs for them to fully decide to completely agree on denying!) Then those sycophants began to waffle, then couldn't remember, and finally they could weirdly remember very clearly that he didn't say it. I wonder what threats he issued to them if they didn't lie for him? -- BullRangifer (talk) 04:05, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Support Durbin is saying it happened and others are saying it didn't. Therefore it's just alleged. We can't in Wiki's voice post a comment that Trump did say those things when it's a BLP issue. We don't know if he said it. There just isn't any guaranteed RS that says Trump said it independent of Durbin. Sir Joseph04:17, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
See my question to Winkelvi above. As far as I can tell, sources treat the Durbin's account as credible, and it's backed by several other credible people. On the other hand, Nielsen, Cotton, and Perdue seem to have been lying. They caught themselves in a logic trap.- MrX 🖋 14:12, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
And one can very well say Durbin is not a credible source. He has been caught lying about this very same scenario before, during Obama's tenure. Sir Joseph15:28, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
As I have still not decided where I'm going to land on this RfC, could you provide a couple of reliable source that support Durbin having been caught lying in this very same scenario before? Many thanks.- MrX 🖋 15:36, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
That source doesn't say Durbin was lying. It just says that the White House and Speaker's office refuted his claim. We don't know who lied, or if anyone lied. The account is sorely lacking in any details..- MrX 🖋 21:15, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Basing our answer here on whether Durbin has been caught lying is WP:OR. If the sources say it is alleged then we say it is alleged, if they omit the mention and lack attribution to Durbin then so do we. Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 15:45, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Cotton was caught changing his story, so he deflects, saying that Durbin has a history of misrepresenting meetings. Sorry, that's not convincing at all - MrX 🖋 21:20, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Reject This proposal is based on a faulty premise. This was not a "story told by Dick Durbin". It is not "Dick Durbin's version." According to the original reporting it was based on multiple unnamed sources; if Durbin was one of them, he is the only one who has come forward publicly, but clearly there were others. And the "denials" have no credibility. It took the White House and Trump days to get around to denying it, and according to several reports, Trump was bragging about his comment to friends later that day. Most of the "denials" from other people who were there in the meeting are classic examples of "non-denial denials": "I don't remember" ("oh, now I remember, he didn't say it"), "he used tough language" ("but I don't remember any of it"), etc. There is no need for an "alleged"; this comment is as well documented as anything can be that wasn't said in front of a tape recorder. --MelanieN (talk) 16:06, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Forgot to mention: Trump's comments have also been all-but-confirmed by Lindsey Graham, whose sneer "my memory hasn't evolved" was directed at the two congressmen who suddenly remembered what they heard and didn't hear. --MelanieN (talk) 16:22, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Would dropping Durbin from the question change the situation? The first reports of this incident I see is January 11th, the first report of denial I see is the 12th, days is not accurate before denying. The squishy original answers from the two others there are a bit lame, but we do not get to decide if they are full of it or not. It comes down to has this been challenged by people that would know for sure? So far the answer is certainly yes it has. PackMecEng (talk) 16:55, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Tentatively support for now There's still just enough of a controversy that it would be best for us to attribute all the claims that he said this. For the record: I have no reasonable doubt that he did say it, but the coverage I've encountered has never failed to note that there's some disagreement over whether he did. Also, I fully expect that disagreement to fade over time, at which point I would want to change the section back to asserting it in wikivoice. FInally: I don't think it should necessarily be described consistently as "alleged", but rather we should explicitly attribute the allegations. We shouldn't say "Trump allegedly called certain nations 'shithole countries'," we should say "according to X, Y and Z who attended the meeting, Trump called certain nations 'shithole countries'."ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.17:07, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
If you are opposed to using the word allegedly, isn't that to say that you oppose rather than support, given that this is an RfC on the word allegedly? 142.161.81.20 (talk) 22:15, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
No, the RfC doesn't propose a specific wording, it merely poses a question. I oppose use of the specific word "allegedly", but I support attributing the claims that Trump referred to these countries as shitholes to the parties who made the claims. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.22:21, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
... it merely poses a question. Yes, and that question is, "Should we refer to story told by Dick Durbin in the 'shithole countries' controversy as alleged?", not "Should those statements be attributed inline?" If the latter question was posed, I may well support it, but that isn't what was asked. Is it not fair to say that you oppose the original proposition and are making an alternate proposition of your own? 142.161.81.20 (talk) 22:26, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
Because you seem to have some difficulty grasping the concept of different phrasings with the same meaning, and I figured the concept of different words with the same meaning might help with that. The question posed is whether or not we should describe the claims as alleged. Since it never put the word "alleged" in quotes to indicate any specificity to that word, that question can thus be rephrased as "should we depict these claims as allegations," to which I indicated tentative support and specified how exactly I believe we should depict them as allegations; by attributing them. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.23:07, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
that question can thus be rephrased as "should we depict these claims as allegations," to which I indicated tentative support and specified how exactly I believe we should depict them as allegations; by attributing them. How do you reconcile that position with the meaning of the word alleged (and, by extension, allegation) as described by MOS:ALLEGED? The MOS indicates that the possible implication that "a given point is inaccurate" is inherent to the term. 142.161.81.20 (talk) 00:36, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
How do you reconcile that position with the meaning of the word alleged (and, by extension, allegation) as described by MOS:ALLEGED? Mostly through a deep understanding of the English language and a lot of experience with formal and informal logic, and rhetoric. But also there's the fact that I tend to assume good faith with my fellow editors, and presume the RfC isn't just a cover for a POV push to insert weasel words into the article. I'm explicitly advocating not using that word because it carries connotations that aren't really accurate. Sure, some people claim the President didn't say it, including the president. But nobody neutral really has much doubt, based on what they know about the president. Therefore, the reader can be reasonably expected to understand that the fact that we are attributing the allegations does not, in any way, imply that we suspect them. At the same time, several people absolutely are disputing that the president said it. So we need to reflect that fact as well, else we're doing the reader a disservice. By attributing the claim that he said it, we can strongly imply that not everyone is on board with it, while simultaneously refraining from implicitly casting doubt on the truth of the claim. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.02:43, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
No because there is no doubts that Trump actually said it. I also agree with comment by MelanieN above. A disclaimer: I do not read a lot of this and may not properly understand certain sensitivities about it. My very best wishes (talk) 20:34, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
No at this point, although I reserve the right to change my !vote after I do some more research. MelanieN does a good job of outlining why we should not qualify Durbin's account as "alleged". Everything I've read so far supports the veracity of the account related by Durbin, Flake, Graham, and Erickson..- MrX 🖋 21:27, 18 January 2018 (UTC).
Update: I did a search for donald trump shithole durbin. In the top 10 results, only one source uses a form of the word "allege", and not in the context of Durbin's account.- MrX 🖋 13:12, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
53-57 59-62 all state it as a variation of alleged, not explicitly saying it happened. 59 is an opinion piece. 58 seems to state it as fact. PackMecEng (talk) 13:50, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
I disagree with that analysis and more importantly, they don't say "alleged" and neither should we.- MrX 🖋 13:59, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
Mild support - Even the most recent press reports note there's some disagreement about what exactly Trump said and in what context. I agree with ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants that attribution is better than just saying "alleged". Gravity23:16, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Strong support- Other than Durbin, everyone else who attributes that exact quote to him are unnamed sources. For example . The article attributes a quote to Trump as reported by "several people briefed on the meeting". The Post does not reveal who these people are. That's complete journalist garbage. How as a journalist do you quote someone when you yourself did not hear the quote and you won't even name the people who claimed that they did?--Rusf10 (talk) 05:05, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
@Rusf10: - Senator Tim Scott said that Senator Lindsey Graham "told him the comments, as reported in the media, were “basically accurate." starship.paint ~
@Starship.paint:Did you read the first sentence of that article? "U.S. Sen. Lindsey Graham didn't directly confirm President Donald Trump's use of the term "shithole countries..." This only supports my argument that you can't present the quote as fact.--Rusf10 (talk) 16:45, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
@Rusf10: I did read the first sentence. I know Graham hasn't explicitly confirmed it himself. But a fellow senator has said Graham told him it's accurate. You had a problem with unnamed sources and I gave you a named source. starship.paint ~KO00:34, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
Reject I base this decision on the excellent posts from several editors and my own common sense. But I still cannot say that the opposing editors have it all wrong. I would much prefer to use the terminology "reportedly referred to" which is discussed below. Gandydancer (talk) 18:20, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
Supportive - per WP:STICKTOTHESOURCE, if the cite says 'allegedly' then the article line should too. I note that bbc.com says 'reportedly' said and 'according' to Durbin, so if the cite were to BBC then the word 'reportedly' should be used. Think the general coverage is a mix so "allegedly" alone might not be the wording chose, but there seems enough contention that it has to be reflected somehow. Markbassett (talk) 02:16, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
Reject. First, this is a badly worded RFC. As pointed out above it seems to fail "neutral wording" criteria on the WP:RFC page. The RFC question oversimplifies the issue. Many more sources verify that the President said "sh*thole" or "sh*thouse", while other sources note the President expressed derogatory sentiments about non-white populations and their respective nation. As mentioned above, the President even bragged about it to friends, before issuing denials about 48 hours later. Two senators couldn't remember during the week, and then attacked Durbin and issued denials in time for the Sunday talk shows. Sources cite their lack of credibility and the word games they are playing. Reliable sources indicate Trump received global condemnation. So the issue has been well defined in the press, demonstrating this goes well beyond "allegedly". Also, "allegedly" should not be used in Misplaced Pages voice. This has been noted as a weasel word and therefore discounts WP:NPOV. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 06:24, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
It violates WP:NPOV by siding with the media's... You do realize that you're literally arguing that WP:V violates WP:NPOV with this argument, right? Understand, we both !voted the same way, but this argument is quite ignorant of policy. We are absolutely required by policy to "side with" the media. If the media also happens to side with one political side, that's not our problem. (If you're trying to figure out why I'm disagreeing with someone who !voted along with me, then understand that when a discussion such as this is closed, the closer looks to the strengths of the arguments. By giving a bad argument in favor of a good position, you undermine that position.) ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.17:48, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
the media has been known to lie and lie about things and hardly anyone trusts them anymore Three things:
That is not even remotely true. The vast majority of reliable sources (which includes the vast majority of the mainstream media) gets it right the first time, every time. Mistakes are both unusual, and corrected in an honest and open fashion.
The second part is no more true. The vast majority of people trust the media implicitly. Including you. You trust your preferred media to tell you the truth when it claims the "mainstream" media lies to you. (Unfortunately for you, they're the ones lying).
Sorry to be so blunt, but "you can't trust the media!" gets about as much traction here as a bowling ball on ice. It runs counter to our very principles. Please desist from this line of argument, and learn to accept that we must rely upon reliable sources for all of our content. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.22:20, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
Reject There's no need for the word "alleged". It definitely happened according to many different sources. The best sources, the biggest, most beautiful sources. Amsgearing (talk) 17:19, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
Oppose per MOS:WTW and WP:V. A particular news source may call something alleged for cover your ass reasons, but after this much coverage and refusal of Trump and his people to deny, it's beyond "alleged" from WP's perspective; i.e., the real-world consensus is that it's not made-up. Early doubt on the part of a particular journalist does not translate to Misplaced Pages's own doubt forever. — SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 03:11, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
Oppose - Summoned by bot. The evidence is there and its been confirmed by the White House - nothing alleged about it. Meatsgains03:17, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
SUPPORT ALLEGED - the whole thing needs to be rewritten to be compliant with policy - use in-text attribution & quote the most notable person who alleged Trump called whatever country shi*hole, and do the same thing for the opposing view and cite the RS. 04:41, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
The vast majority of this article was written by highly experienced editors, each of whom have edited thousands of other articles and are respected for their understanding of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. It seem implausible to me that those experienced editors, collaborating with other experienced editors, would even be capable of writing an article that is not "compliant with policy".- MrX 🖋 12:55, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
Reject alleged - Widely reported in RS. Folks that have denied the story seem to have flexible memories of the event. O3000 (talk) 15:06, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
No to "alleged" and yes to attribution. Doing it that way gets the balance right, given the available sourcing if taken in its totality. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:24, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
Reject inclusion entirely Referring to third-world countries as "shitholes" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with race or racism. Yes, I realize that the popular press has attempted to draw that conclusion, but in this particular case, sensationalist news media isn't reliable for such an inflammatory claim in a WP:BLP. Instead, we should wait for respected, peer-reviewed academic journals to draw such conclusions. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:15, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
Include. We follow RS, BLP, and PUBLICPERSONS (the latter is merciless...)
Please, BR...you're not understanding that it's still alleged or if you prefer...reported that...he said it. I have already cited all of the PAGs that contradict your argument...allegations/reporting what someone else said...does not qualify as a statement of fact. There are disputed arguments in the sources...stop cherrypicking the ones that agree with your POV and simply cite both using intext attribution and inline citations...simple resolution. 21:46, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
The earliest I see is from Washinton Post and they are listing to "several people briefed on the meeting". I listed Durbin since he is the only person that was there that said it happened. What would you suggest as better wording? PackMecEng (talk) 15:25, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
That diff covers more than this section, I was hoping to keep it narrow. I would be willing to drop mention of Durbin though to something like "Should we refer to the "shithole countries" controversy as alleged?". How does that sound Galobtter? PackMecEng (talk) 15:49, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
I mean it isn't the controversy that is alleged..the diff covers the section and the lead covering that section - unless you wan a discrepancy between the section and the lead.. Galobtter (pingó mió) 15:54, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
I would go with "Should we refer to the "shithole countries" comments as alleged?" but that goes a bit far the other way with bias. PackMecEng (talk) 16:45, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
The sentence we are referring to is In January 2018, Trump received widespread domestic and international condemnation for comments he made during a January 11 Oval Office meeting about immigration, in which he referred to African countries, El Salvador, and Haiti as "shithole countries". I would oppose "allegedly referred to" because the statement is better documented than that, but I could accept "reportedly referred to". What would you think about that? --MelanieN (talk) 17:49, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
If you want to do that, you can't really withdraw and reword your original proposal after people have commented on it; maybe you could make a new proposal as a subsection of this one? --MelanieN (talk) 19:42, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
On second thought, I think you could withdraw and self-close your original RfC, and open a new one. You should ping all the people who commented originally. --MelanieN (talk) 19:45, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
I think it should follow the cites phrasing for accuracy. Plus the article as a whole should reflect WEIGHT that there is variation, and denial and condemnation for NPOV. The coverage does seem varied. "Reportedly" is the BBC phrasing fairly consistently; theguardian stories vary among 'reported that' and 'Trump said'. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 16:50, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
Politico: "Indeed, Trump’s own erratic behavior in negotiations last week — including his remarks to lawmakers that many immigrants come from “shithole” countries — helped precipitate the breakdown in spending talks..." zzz (talk) 20:08, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
zzz - Politico stories also phrase it "was accused of using", "allegedly uttering", and covered the opposite side "denied" and Purdue & Cotton "did not hear" plus some mentioning it as something someone else "Washington Post reported that". So Politico also is one of those that shows variations in handling including "alleged" and denials. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 02:34, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The title chosen for the article
I think that the editors have done a commendable job in terms of keeping the article balanced and including all the relevant information! I have two alternative suggestions regarding the article title, though - "Race-related controversies involving Donald Trump" or "Allegations of racism against Donald Trump". I think that the current heading (while appropriate for an encyclopedia article) may leave the reader with the impression that Donald Trump is primarily known for his views on race or is an expert on human races. He is a very famous politician and businessman, but the books he has written (to the best of my knowledge) avoid the topic of race/racial differences between populations and he is not exactly a racial anthropologist like Carleton Coon, if we are to take one example of a person who has theorized about/undertaken systematic studies regarding the various human phenotypes.Oleg Morgan (talk) 18:51, 27 January 2018 (EET)
The current title is not precise, but I struggle to find a better one that is both precise and concise. The most accurate would something like History of racially-provocative remarks and racially-motivated actions by Donald Trump.- MrX 🖋 17:17, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
Except while correct technically, it gives the impression its historical, rather than its actual use which is to indicate 'This is a history of (up until the present time) racial issues involving dondald trump'. How about 'Donald Trump's racial controversies'. Every one of them has caused a controversy at some point, either legally or in the news. And there is no argument that its due to him (regardless of his actual intent). The better sources (that bring all the incidents together) clearly indicate its a pattern of controversial racial-based actions/statements (its not a 'view' for example, when you refuse to rent houses to black people, it is however a racially-based controversy). Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:21, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
Thank you all for the nice comments and the feedback offered! I like the other suggestions provided and am actually still undecided as to what the best title would be. I think that History of racially-provocative remarks and racially-motivated actions by Donald Trump accurately describes the scope of the article, though for the sake of neutrality the words "allegedly" or "purportedly" may need to be added as well. However, as rightly pointed out, the heading in question is not concise enough.Donald Trump's racial controversies would probably be a good compromise.Oleg Morgan (talk) 12:40, 29 January 2018 (EET)
I also don't like "racial views of Donald Trump", something like "accusations of racism against Donald Trump" would be better. Racism is inherently irrational and arises from ignorance, stereotyping and prejudice, not from having "views". Better still, delete the whole bloody thing and merge it back into the Donald Trump article. The article got Afd'd, and while the admin judged the consensus correctly, the consensus was not a correct application of wikipedia policy regarding WP:POVFORK and WP:BLP. There really is no precedent on wikipedia for an entire article dedicated to whether a living person is or isn't a racist. 222.153.254.63 (talk) 22:59, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
Among the alternative titles offered, Accusations of racism against Donald Trump matches article content most closely. — JFG07:32, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
I think we should keep the current title. It is neutral, unlike "controversies" or "accusations" or "allegations". And it leaves room for the other side, i.e. his own and others' defenses of his views, which are absolutely required to be included by Misplaced Pages policy. MelanieN alt (talk) 17:19, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
I didn't realize this discussion was still ongoing. I agree with Oleg and JFG and support Accusations of racism against Donald Trump which is what comprises this article. If the article was actually about his views, they certainly are not given proper weight. The article includes some of his denials in response to the racist allegations against him by journalists and pundits, not actual his views (as in POV), most of which are actually supported by his actions, and the lede would read much differently - certainly not weighted so heavily with allegations of racism by op eds and commentary from news orgs and advocacies.18:19, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
Absolutely not. This article is not about accusations; it's about Trump's 45 year documented history of racially-provocative remarks and racially-motivated actions. The word "accusations" is an expression of doubt in this context, and completely inappropriate for neutral encyclopedia.- MrX 🖋 20:18, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
I agree. BTW, at one point I said that Donald Trump's racial controversies would be an improvement. What with a few weeks of working on the article I've changed my mind and now feel that what we've got is the best title for the article. Gandydancer (talk) 21:11, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
I think Accusations of racism against Donald Trump would be an improvement and fit more with what we actually have in the article. PackMecEng (talk) 21:13, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
I frankly don't understand the argument. What's wrong with giving the article a descriptive title? That is absolutely part of our titling policy. This article documents multiple accusations of racism, that's what the title should describe. When you say "no, it documents a long history of racist actions by Donald Trump", you are simply embracing the POV of his accusers. On the contrary, very little in the article purports to document Trump's "racial views", because he hasn't really expressed any consistent views on the topic, therefore the current title is inadequate. — JFG23:10, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
That's ridiculous. I'm embracing the reliable sources for crying out loud. And my argument is very easy to understand. This article is about Trump's racial views, not other people accusations. This is not creative writing where we try to turn the tables and make the so called accusers look like the bad guys.- MrX 🖋 00:21, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
MrX, we're not supposed to make anyone look like the "bad guys"...including Trump. I am dismayed by your comment. We're supposed be writing from a NPOV, and for you to say things like "creative writing" and "turn the tables" is very disconcerting. I counted 5 editors who indicated support for Accusations of racism against Donald Trump. 02:12, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
-One probably best not to quote Think Progress for the type of partisan institution that it is.
-Two generally not good to list being endorsed by someone as something controlled or targeted by that person. Like we don't list Duke's endorsement of Trump as a candidate for example since he was someone that Trump did publicly denounce.
-Three comments by Jason Johnson seem undue in general, not very notable.
-Finally the view that the state of the union was racist is a minority view over all and not widely covered.
I summarised the Time source; I make no judgement on the notability of (blue-linked) people included in that source. Other sources can be added also, so I don't agree that it's "not widely covered". zzz (talk) 01:35, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
See Google ""americans are dreamers too"" - 226,000 results. including all the main Reliable Sources (plus Fox, Breitbart etc.) zzz (talk) 01:56, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Yeah because that was part of the speech. From the whole first page of that google result none of them mention racism and only Mother Jones mention Duke. PackMecEng (talk) 02:03, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
The CNN quote you mention was not by CNN, they were quoting twitter. Not really applicable or particularly damming. Never really heard of CBC before, they are state sponsored right? But anyhow the quotes from there are again from twitter, same guy are before and same issue with citing Duke as listed above. I should point out divisive does not equal racist. The Newsweek source seems to cover it, but they still seem to be the minority view. The Daily Beast just points out people parroted it, with no commentary on it. Again these do not hold much weight for such a divisive claim that it was a racial statement. PackMecEng (talk) 03:57, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
No one is claiming it is a majority view that it was divisive. It doesn't need to be. It is reported that many people saw it as divisive. In my opinion that is enough to cover it in this article. I'm ok to wait and see what others think. zzz (talk) 04:07, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
This remark was discussed on Washington Week in Review with Robert Costa and other prominent journalists: "And from the State of the Union, the Democrats were really unhappy with the president’s rhetoric on immigration, and they were also unhappy that he appropriated the “dreamer” line, you know. That was one of the big lines from the speech, “Americans are dreamers too.” That incensed a lot of people." So it seems to me that this establishes the fact that it is an important issue and it actually goes far beyond the "Pretty Korean lady" remark which was overwhelmingly thought to be appropriate for the article in our above discussion. I also want to mention that it is a mistake IMO to insist that unless the word "racist" is mentioned we can't use the incident. All the better if one can find a notable person that uses the word (as I did when I added Mark Shields comment to the Elizabeth Warren section), but it was considered a racist viewpoint even without Shield's comment.
I strongly favor including this information that has been deleted. Gandydancer (talk) 19:28, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
I don't think either of us were saying that sources must include the term racist. But that it would support Trump having a racial view, which this clearly does not. Incensed people does not equal his racial view. PackMecEng (talk) 19:40, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
The Time source states "Immediately, critics, journalists, activists and other commentators took to social media to question the phrase “Americans are dreamers, too,” suggesting that it amounted to a racist dog-whistle against immigrants." Which is corroborated by white supremacists' support for the phrase. zzz (talk) 11:36, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
"Incensed people does not equal his racial view." Sure, as long as you separate this latest event from everything that's gone on before it. Of course Trump wouldn't admit that the Dreamers catch phrase had anything to do with the drug smuggling, raping, lazy Mexicans - no more than he and the birthers would admit that their opinions had anything to do with the fact that Obama was a black man. Gandydancer (talk) 16:13, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
I'm relatively new to Misplaced Pages but I understand something about original research and having to have claims properly sourced. The claim that the phrase "Americans are dreamers too" is racist can only be supported as such if reliable sources say that the phrase was racist. Of course there is bound to be someone somewhere who would claim that Trump was being racist if he asked for sugar for his tea, but I doubt that sad individual would count as a reliable source. Trumps use of the phrase "Americans are dreamers too" was a clever turning of a phrase the Democrats had been trying to use for their own political ends, but to suggest it was racially motivated is clearly nonsense - had he said "White Americans are Dreamers too" I would conceded the phase is racist, but "Americans are dreamers too"? Incredible! So unless there are reliable sources that support the notion that the use of the phrase was racist, it should definitely not be included in this article. Lin4671again (talk) 16:38, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
There are reliable sources (see above). The question is, I suppose, is there enough of them. I would say yes, there are. zzz (talk) 16:52, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
You are missing my point - I said "So unless there are reliable sources that support the notion that the use of the phrase was racist.." I know there are many sources that us the phrase but are there any reliable sources that suggest that the use of the phrase was 'racist, racially-charged or racially motivated" - if not the information is not relevant to this article or the article scope needs to be broadened by editing the first sentence. Lin4671again (talk) 17:04, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
No, I got your point. "Immediately, critics, journalists, activists and other commentators took to social media to question the phrase “Americans are dreamers, too,” suggesting that it amounted to a racist dog-whistle against immigrants" (see above). Critics, journalists, activists and other commentators think the use of the phrase was racist, racially-charged or racially motivated. zzz (talk) 17:08, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
Count three against. The mental gymnastics to construe anything Trump says as racist are truly mind-boggling. "Americans are dreamers too", sure, clever pun on DACA, no race involved. Did you know that American citizens come in all sizes and colors? — JFG02:28, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
"The mental gymnastics to construe anything Trump says as racist are truly mind-boggling." So, do you have some examples in mind, of statements falsely construed as racist? Or are you merely saying that, in your opinion, this particular statement is not racist, and so it should not be mentioned? Can you explain how that is consistent with WP:NOR? zzz (talk) 16:26, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
@Signedzzz: Well, we are possibly drifting into OR or FORUM territory, but let's take a well-known example: many commenters have been accusing Trump of racism because he embraced and amplified the birtherism claims. However, how is that more racist than using the exact same political smear against a very white adversary like Ted Cruz? Trump attacks everybody irrespective of race, gender or political party. So, when he attacks a black politician like Barack Obama he is considered racist, and when he attacks a female politician like Hillary Clinton he is considered misogynist. When he attacks a conservative politician like Jeb Bush or Ted Cruz, he is considered a traitor to Republican values. When he attacks a veteran like John McCain he is considered disrespectful to the military. But when he praises Martin Luther King, when he hires Ben Carson, is he racist? When he appoints Nikki Haley or Linda McMahon, is he a misogynist? When he wants a military parade, is he smearing the military? (Oh right, then he's a childish dictator…) Everything he does is viewed under a lens of evil symbolism, and that is quite puzzling to observe for a dispassionate outside observer of American politics. — JFG23:21, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
Back to the direct question raised, indeed I totally fail to see how "Americans are dreamers too" can be construed as racist. There are certainly plenty of pundits who "hear a dog whistle" but this analogy is getting really tired. — JFG23:24, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
Yes, you don't think birtherism is racist, I forgot that. Back to the question of the SOTU, you don't think that was racist either. However, as you say, there are plenty who do, so that should be stated in this article. Any RS that agree with you can also be added, of course. zzz (talk) 23:30, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
Obviously, everything we document in the encyclopedia must be properly sourced. We must still be aware that not everybody agrees that all utterances by Trump must have malevolent undertones. The birtherism affair has certainly been exploited by people with racist motives, I do not dispute that. I'm only stating that Trump has used similar weapons against all his opponents, so that cannot be taken as evidence of racism. — JFG01:42, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
So you have no constructive suggestions based on RS that would support your benign view of what RS cited here describe as POTUS' racist postures and policies? If so, let's move on. SPECIFICOtalk02:10, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
The subject of this thread is the remark "Americans are dreamers too". Many editors agree that construing this as racist is, as PackMecEng eloquently stated, "an undue addition of an almost fringe viewpoint", so there is no consensus to keep it in the article; indeed let's drop this and move on. — JFG02:26, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
I actually did not notice the talk section. I removed it because it all seems to hang on other clubs not allowing blacks or Jews, but the refs don't confirm this. Another problem is stating that it "has been called "one of the more Jewish-friendly clubs on Palm Beach"" when that is not actually a direct quote, and the person who expressed the opinion is just someone who was strongly in favour of moving the embassy to Jerusalem, not a huge fan of Mar-a-lago specifically. zzz (talk) 14:45, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
I certainly don't think it deserves a section, that is why I moved it to the "Defenses" section before deleting it. If you have a source that directly confirms the racism of the other clubs, then I have no objection. zzz (talk) 14:59, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
I felt it was appropriate. I read the refs and what we have at Mar-a-Lago and it is my impression that it was a smart move on his part, besides the fact that he needed to open his place to those other than the old wealthy aristocracy if he wanted to get clientele, rather than a moral position. Never the less, he apparently did open his club to all. No one came right out and said that the other clubs don't allow Jews, though it was inferred. I wish we could find a good factual site on the subject as well... Gandydancer (talk) 15:43, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
Having looked at the text, I think it does not currently belong in the article. I also don't see where it's declared "consensus". SPECIFICOtalk21:11, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
"But Trump undercut his adversaries with a searing attack, claiming that local officials seemed to accept the established private clubs in town that had excluded Jews and blacks while imposing tough rules on his inclusive one. Trump’s lawyer sent every member of the town council copies of two classic movies about discrimination: “A Gentleman’s Agreement,” about a journalist who pretends to be Jewish to expose anti-Semitism, and “Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner” about a white couple’s reaction to their daughter bringing home a black fiance." from describing how Trump had to fight for his inclusive club in a way that the private clubs that excluded black and Jewish people didn't have to fight. Lin4671again (talk) 21:44, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
From the same article: "Wyett, who is Jewish, said he would hear Trump talk with pride about Mar-a-Lago’s nondiscriminatory policy, but wondered if it was a business strategy: “Was he smart enough to realize that Palm Beach is about 40 percent Jewish and he was not going to attract the old guard anyway?”" I have already done a revert today, but that addition to the lead definitely needs to be reverted.zzz (talk) 21:59, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
Really? Is this article just setting out to deal with the evidence that suggests that Trump is racist or is it trying to deal with all evidence? Had you said you felt the addition should be moved to the 'Defences' section I may have thought the latter....Lin4671again (talk) 22:15, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
The following text should be removed from the opening sentence of the lede: but, also, in the 1980's he turned his Mar-a-Lago mansion into an inclusive private club at a time when Palm Beach private clubs excluded black and Jewish people, and in 2017 unequivocally stated that "racism is evil". SPECIFICOtalk23:31, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
I agree. This is anecdotal and does not belong in the lead. Trump's public remarks and actions are far more noteworthy than what someone claims they heard Trump say with pride.- MrX 🖋 00:36, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
"In 2015, prior to Trump's alleged comment, the New York Times reported that open defecation was widespread in many underdeveloped countries, specifically citing those in sub-Saharan Africa.(ref)Rick Gladstone (June 30, 2015). "Dirty Water and Open Defecation Threaten Gains in Child Health". New York Times. Retrieved February 11, 2018.(end ref)
These were deleted with the notation WP:SYNTH (which I take to mean no WP:OR).
The first edit relays a widely circulated email documenting a Peace Corps (now conservative editor of notable online magazine) narrative of her experience with fecal matter in Senegal during her overseas assignment. I don't see where reporting this is WP:OR. The Peace Corps alumna was demonstrating, rather successfully, I thought, of the literal truth of the remark. It was circulated sufficiently that snopes investigated it. Snopes agrees that she made the statement, which is why I'm offering no link to snopes, since the truth is in the citation itself.
The second NY Times comment on Sub-Saharan Africa popped up during my online search. It, too, suggests the same literal interpretation of Trump's remarks.
Using the first source would not constitute original research, but it would be WP:UNDUE. The second source is unusable because it makes no mention of Trump's racial views and it predates the shithole remark.- MrX 🖋 00:24, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
How is the Peace Corps observations, widely circulated on the internet, and even reviewed for accuracy by snopes (who has a large in-basket), and who edits a notable magazine, "undue?"
I suppose I could pin the NY Times citation on Trump's remarks themselves, though he doubtlessly used other sources in identifying these countries as "s--holes." It cannot be proven that Trump's remarks derived specifically from the NY Times, but it seems to me to have been taken from the same sources. When people defecate outside in front of foreigners, it's going to be noticed. The fact that the NY Times and Trump wandered upon the same facts independently seem irrelevant per se and not WP:OR but rather the reverse. Same conclusions given the same facts. Student7 (talk) 03:20, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Please read WP:WEIGHTWP:SYNTH and WP:NPOV before returning to this article or talk page. I am not doubting your good intentions, but the text is rather obviously inappropriate and it's important you get up to speed on basic editing principles. SPECIFICOtalk03:38, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
"Widely circulated on the internet" does not factor into content decisions. If you want the material in the artilce, you have to show that it (Trump's not racist because of the shortage of bathrooms in Africa) represents a significant viewpoint covered in reliable sources. Unfortunately, a blog post by peace corps volunteer Karin McQuillan does not satisfy that requirement.- MrX 🖋 12:29, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Thank you MrX.
Let's say I said you were "short," and we both agreed that "short" was a pejorative. Let's say I found a WP:RS that said you were 4'11". While that might not prove that you were "short" according to everyone's definition, it would put the remark into objective, rather than subjective, context. Note that the date of the reliable source would not be germane. The measurement could have taken place prior to my observation. Your height would still be the same. The RS would not have to include the gratuitous commentary that their measurement therefore "supports" or "refutes" my observation. It would simply be objective data.
McQuillan was writing in the American Thinker, a notable online publication. The subtitle heading is "Journalists and pundits." I suggest that McQuillan fits this description. It is not clear to me that I am "trying to prove" Trump is anything but accurate in his description. Whether he is "racist" or not is somewhat beyond documenting one remark one way or another. The citation tends to indicate that he was objective in this one remark, anyway. The New York Times article does the same, and is way more objective since they weren't trying to prove that anyone was bigoted or free from bigotry. They were just reporting the facts gathered by WHO. Student7 (talk) 19:39, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Reducing immigration for predominately non-white countries, is racist and that is the proposed change to the immigration system, to reduce diversity in the background of immigration with such ideas as ending the lottery, etc., etc.C. W. Gilmore (talk) 21:53, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Seeking to reduce illegal immigration is not, in itself, racist. If the argument is that reducing illegal immigration will keep the USA white majority for longer, and is therefore racist, surely the corollary is also true: that to not reduce illegal immigration is also racist as it speeds the rate at which the USA will no longer be a non white majority!. Bottom line is that you can not conflate immigration and racism when both the citizenry of the USA and those trying to immigrate includes every race on earth. Lin4671again (talk) 10:30, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
The proposed changes to the immigration system by Trump will have little effect on "illegal immigration" but will have the effect of reducing the diversity of "legal" immigration by end such programmes as the lottery. Trump Administration plans for immigration appears to be designed solely to reduce immigration for those 'shitehole' countries and nothing to do with "illegal immigration". According to the experts, you reduce "illegal immigration" by limiting their access to working in the USA; as first Carter and then Reagan attempted with proposals to check Social Security numbers for workers and big business interests gutted from those bills before they became law. E-verify is voluntary for employers, now if that were made mandatory, then it would reduce working illegally by up to 80%. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 21:53, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Primary sourced video
moved to next thread below
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I've removed a mention of Trump's "racism is evil" remark that was primary-sourced to a video of his remarks that were widely reported as dissembling and that were met with renewed criticism of his reaction to the incident. The accompanying NY Times article, which was not cited, gives the full context of that televised snippet, which RS tell us follows a pattern of brief scripted politically correct comments preceded and followed by inflammatory and controversial remarks. In the wake of the video statement, NYT reports criticism among his staff, 3 executives quitting Trump's American Manufacturing advisory council, and far-right sources who said the video remarks were not to be taken seriously. Cherry-picked primary sourced content and used out of context as SYNTH clearly does not meet our editorial policies and guidelines. If any of this is in the article, it would need to use the secondary NYT article along with the video snippet and give proper weight to the thrust of that secondary report. SPECIFICOtalk15:13, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
See my remarks below, which I was in the process of writing when your post appeared. There is no SYNTH involved in quoting a speech without comment, as my edit did. — JFG15:24, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
What about Trump's views as expressed directly?
I added a direct quote of Donald Trump saying "racism is evil", and was reverted by SPECIFICO, with an edit summary stating that the New York Times subsequently dismissed Trump's plain statement, and rejecting the source as primary. I believe that in an article titled "Racial views of Donald Trump", we should be able to document views about racism that Trump has expressed himself directly (yes, primary source, so what?), in addition to all the commentary from people who deem him racist. Removing this makes a mockery of our neutrality policy. — JFG15:16, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Please put this in the section I opened immediately above to address this. BTW you did not cite the secondary source, so no you did not include any commentary or even any hint that there wasa such commentary. And the commentary is not about the label "racist" -- which we all know is a straw man. The whole reason we have this article is that his views are more nuanced and that the bare label denies our readers the detailed information they seek. You may move this reply of mine along with yours when you delete this separate section. SPECIFICOtalk15:25, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Indeed, and if you read that policy, you will note that quoting a statement from someone without further comment is an acceptable use of a primary source. Otherwise we could never quote anybody. Anyway, this is nitpicking, because Trump's statement has been quoted by secondary RS, notably The New York Times. — JFG17:10, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
I've removed a mention of Trump's "racism is evil" remark that was primary-sourced to a video of his remarks that were widely reported as dissembling and that were met with renewed criticism of his reaction to the incident. The accompanying NY Times article, which was not cited, gives the full context of that televised snippet, which RS tell us follows a pattern of brief scripted politically correct comments preceded and followed by inflammatory and controversial remarks. In the wake of the video statement, NYT reports criticism among his staff, 3 executives quitting Trump's American Manufacturing advisory council, and far-right sources who said the video remarks were not to be taken seriously. Cherry-picked primary sourced content and used out of context as SYNTH clearly does not meet our editorial policies and guidelines. If any of this is in the article, it would need to use the secondary NYT article along with the video snippet and give proper weight to the thrust of that secondary report. SPECIFICOtalk15:13, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
SYNTH is about context, and this was used in the worst possible way from a primary source without giving our readers the benefit of the context that was readily available from the same source -- namely the article that accompanied and explained the video for NYTimes readers that day. Not good. ##. Meanwhile, it's clear that primary assertions by politicians, even in the absence of an immediate secondary contextualization such as was ignored here, are subject to widespread fact checking. And especially for those politicians who are documented by RS to routinely spread false and contradictory statments -- both about fact and about their own actions and opinions -- this use of a primary source is really not even worth the effort to discuss. A balanced NPOV account is required. In the absence of that, the primary cherry gets unpicked. SPECIFICOtalk17:50, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Oh sure, our readers can't possibly make up their mind for themselves by reading a plain quote, they need The New York Times to tell them how they should interpret Trump's remarks. I see. — JFG18:07, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
That's correct. That's why we don't just cherrypick primary sources and why we rely on fact checkers and of course that still fails to address the SYNTH misuse of that primary source which is also a core no-no. SPECIFICOtalk18:12, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Cherry-picking is everywhere on Misplaced Pages. This whole article could be construed as a giant cherry-picking exercise (see some remarks at the AfD). In this speech, and elsewhere, Trump has explicitly condemned racism. Apparently you don't want to admit it, and you are entitled to your opinion. Let other readers see what he said and make up their mind: some will see hypocrisy, others will see common sense, and neutrality will be upheld. I'm totally flabbergasted that you are sincerely advocating to remove Donald Trump's first-person statement about racism from an article called "Racial views of Donald Trump". — JFG18:26, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for not addressing my question. Why should Trump's publicly-expressed view on racism not be mentioned in an article titled "Racial views of Donald Trump"? — JFG20:08, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
I suggest you make busy with other things and let's just let other editors comment. Judging from the number of thank you pings I've received, I know there are several lurkers who will eventually share their views. Time to chill. Give it a week. (Or add the context as at the main Trump article.) Thanks. SPECIFICOtalk20:45, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Without reviewing all the sources (I am on vacation after all), I can see no legitimate reason for removing this comment, or for hedging it around with press commentary saying he didn't mean it. I think we should have the quote in the article, along with any context other than just three words (Was that the whole sentence?) I think the one notation we should add is that he said it "in prepared remarks". We all know that Trump reading prepared remarks is a very different animal from Trump speaking off the cuff, so that qualification should be included IMO. MelanieN alt (talk) 21:46, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
MelanieN, shame on you peeking here during vacation 😼. However the simple alternative is to properly contextualize POTUS' remarks, as e.g. in the Donald Trump article, using the NYTimes story that pointed to that primary source video. That way, our readers can understand what the primary source showed. In the initial insertion of the content primary-sourced to the video, the secondary article was not cited -- leaving our readers in the dark. Anyway the primary sourced bit without the secondary would be undue, since there are tens of thousands of such video clips of Trump on the internet. Why choose this one? The secondary article, not initially cited, tells us why, so we briefly summarize it. SPECIFICOtalk22:30, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Contextualize or editorialize so reader's can understand ... what? A particular POV? No. We publish in a dispassionate tone per NPOV what the article says...and keep in mind, news orgs are questionable sources when it involves opinions and not statements of fact...and it is at that point that we use intext attribution. 22:52, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Atsme my love,👩❤️💋👩👩❤️💋👩👩❤️💋👩 have you reviewed the question at hand here?
A primary source video was used as a bare ref for one sentence uttered in the video with no context and no citation to the RS article that included the video. The article itself was not an opinion piece -- it quoted various notable individuals whose comments it summarized. SPECIFICOtalk23:08, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
This is very difficult to do when the basic facts can not be agreed upon. Establishing what the most simple baseline of factual evidence allows to build out to the most neutral point of view in the article. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 23:11, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
C.W., this thread is about a single narrow question. Whether a primary sourced cherrypicked statement should be used while omitting the full citation of the RS secondary source that published it and while omitting any of the relevant core information in that RS reference. You seem to be making a more general comment. SPECIFICOtalk23:25, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
It is a general statement and one that reflects on this narrow question. Trump has made many statements and many conflicting one; they conflict either with other statements or actions so it is very difficult to develop a baseline of which is factual and which are not. This is one of those cases, the statement was made, but given other statements and other actions, is it a factual statement? C. W. Gilmore (talk) 23:54, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
"Is it a factual statement?" Well, there is no question that Trump stated "racism is evil" in the cited speech; now, some people will believe him and some won't. NPOV requires us Wikipedians not to comment one way or the other, and let readers make up their mind. — JFG00:19, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
Well, what does the other evidence show about how 'factual' the statement is? Do his other statements and actions contradict this statement? Does this statement fit his historical actions in business and private life? If any of these are answered in the negative, then it brings the 'factual' nature of the statement into serious question and those contradictions need to be dealt with before accepting this comment as 'factual', IMO. Consider the Access Hollywood tape which Trump later denied, which of those statements is the 'factual' one? C. W. Gilmore (talk) 00:26, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
You appear to question Trump's motives or "true beliefs", that is not what is at stake here. It's a fact that he uttered "racism is evil", just as well as it's a fact he uttered "grab'em by the pussy". Each reader can make up their own mind about Trump's sincerity in both cases, that should not prevent Misplaced Pages from reporting what he said. — JFG01:58, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
No, he's telling you it's UNDUE without the secondary source that demonstrates at least some suggestion that it's not UNDUE like other cherrypicked primary snippets and so there's what the Americans call Catch-22. You can't just grab a primary source and stick it where you please, because that fails WP:WEIGHT but if you want to claim due weight then you must cite at least one secondary source, and for some reason you decline to do so, even though it would in a sense relieve you of your immediate conundrum. SPECIFICOtalk02:25, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
Dear SPECIFICO, while you seem to have time to intervene in a dialogue between another editor and myself, I'm still waiting for your answer to the central question of this thread. Again, I have no problem citing the secondary source and that is not the point. — JFG02:31, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
The problem with quoting Trump is that he says conflicting things even on a single subject so to ensure accuracy, more than a single quote is needed and it needs to be supported with actions; as with 'build the wall', that is a statement that is consistent and followed by actions, even though Mexico dos not appear willing to pay for it. The question on so many issues is which Trump quote is the 'Factual' one so one must look at actions as well as the words to understand what the true intentions are and which statements to give weight worth quoting. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 14:52, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
(edit conflict)🤗😘 SPECIFICO, I choose not to argue the RS argument...I've said my piece and have higher priorities on my list of things to do. I'll just leave with this closing thought (paraphrasing what a trusted admin explained to me in 2015 (and I wasn't too happy with his response at the time but I respected it): a major misconception is that a source can be declared "reliable", and that declaration is a fixed, absolute judgment. Reliability depends on two things - (1) the source itself and (2) how it is used. We have no way of providing a blanket approval that any source is reliable for all purposes. What matters is the greater context of the article. 23:39, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
@SPECIFICO: The "primary source video" is a strawman argument; I already said I'm fine with adding the accompanying secondary article, and you could have added it yourself instead of removing Trump's quote. The real purpose of this thread, as I opened it, is to clarify whether we should plainly include Trump's directly-expressed views on racism or dilute them in commentary and opinion by others. So far, you have avoided answering the question. — JFG00:14, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
Please. You didn't open the discussion. You ignored my explanation of your primary sourced cherrypick and then opened a duplicate thread minutes later, now claiming (I'm not sure what it buys you) that you what? Own this thread? As I've already said -- your view is known. We need to hear from others about how to fix the problem. SPECIFICOtalk00:21, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
AGF much? We were writing our threads simultaneously; you happened to hit "Save" three minutes earlier. Now, will you answer the question I have been asking? I did answer yours. — JFG00:25, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
Support adding Trump's plainly stated view about racism in the article titled "Racial Views of Donald Trump." Seems to be a no-brainer. Mr Ernie (talk) 16:07, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
This section is nothing but Trump stating he is not a racist, why do we need to add one more? Besides, when actions don't match the words, how many times do you need to quote those words? At least with building The Wall, actions and words match up, but not so much on racial issues. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 16:35, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
I agree. But just to state this in terms of our Misplaced Pages core policies: We can't cherrypick a single primary source out of the tens of thousands of statements from a public figure. So the initial edit clearly was wrong. But when we examine all the secondary sources that included that video or references to Trump's anti-racism revisionist statements, we see that the overwhelming weight of RS narrative is that Trump read those pre-scripted remarks to stem the firestorm of criticism he faced. RS then go on to detail how he was unable to stay on point with the anti-racism stance and immediately reverted to his initial inflammatory and racist narrative. That is what secondary RS tell us. That's why we don't cherrypick primary snippets. It's especially why we don't extract primary illustrations from a secondary RS like the initially cited NYTimes video, whose sole purpose in the source was to lay the background for the prolonged condemnation that followed the "racism is evil" words. MelanieN made a slight improvement by telling our readers that the "evil" bit was a prescripted remark, but that's rather oblique, when the fact it was scripted is significant only becuase POTUS reverted to his unscripted narrative in the following days and weeks. The cherrypicked content with no secondary sourced context is UNDUE. Citing it without the accompanying RS secondary narrative is even worse. SPECIFICOtalk16:48, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
Yeah I do not know why that section exists. The defenses should be with the claims. Also only about half of it is actually Trump saying he didn't do it. PackMecEng (talk) 16:39, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
We need to keep things in perspective and abide by WP:BLPSTYLE, Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association, and biased, malicious or overly promotional content. Next is WP:NEWSORG with regards to an author's opinion vs statements of fact. To say one's "actions" don't match the words when based on nothing more than media opinion is a bit of a stretch. As a wise admin once explained, media is the court of public opinion, not a legal court and their opinions are their own. When referencing the border wall, the reality is that it is a national security issue, not a racial issue, and a substantial number of American citizens support a wall. Sharyl Attkisson wrote a piece in The Hill about how polls have been conducted. Also see WP:LABEL which is important MOS guidance (my bold underline): Value-laden labels—such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion—may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution. Avoid myth in its informal sense, and establish the scholarly context for any formal use of the term. 17:57, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
There is no consensus to reinsert the challenged content. I have removed a bit of text that was reinserted recently (a) without consensus, and (b) not conforming to statements in the cited source.
I propose the following article text, cited to the NY Times story:
Two days later, responding to the wave of disapproval that met his initial remarks, Trump delivered a prepared statement, saying "Racism is evil, and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs."
This text reflects the statements in the NYTimes article and reflects the statements in the cited source If anyone wishes to propose and alternative text, please put it up and we can discuss the relative merits.
SPECIFICOtalk02:50, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
For comparison, the text I added, citing the same New York Times source, is:
Two days later, Trump forcefully denounced far-right violence, stating: "Racism is evil, and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs."
If you'll examine every instance of "forcefully" in the NYT source, it's readily apparent that the article does not call Mr. Trump's tepid and temporary moderation "forceful". SPECIFICOtalk03:47, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
You're disrupting the discussion to change it after you've posted it. The challenged content should not have been re-inserted without consensus and if you're also conceding that it violated WP:V then it's not helpful to take a second bite of the apple in the middle of the discussion. What would be helpful is to add a few words that convey the main thrust of the NYTimes source. To wit: Trump droned a few scripted words and then quickly reverted to his pandering to the far-right and racist elements with such ardour that a total of 3 individuals ended up resigning from his American Manufacturing panel, that iconic white supremacist Richard Spencer gloated that the remarks were not serious, and that he resumed preparations to pardon Joe Arpaio - famed birther, racial profiler, and recently convicted criminal. If you now admit that "sure" it's not in Verified by the cited source, then what possible justification could there be for inserting this false content into the artice? Please withdraw your re-jiggered text above and drop the stick. SPECIFICOtalk14:46, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
The problem, as with the response to Charlottesville, he said one thing, then the opposite the next day, and then back to his first position the day after that; there is no consistency. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 15:05, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
That's not WP policy. We reflect RS portrayal of events. In fact we could have a separate article that discusses all the disingenuous scripted statements his staff makes him read in between savage twitter attacks, coded dog-whistles to the most rabid of his "base", and unannounced policy decisions, such as staffing the white house with 100+ folks who lack the security clearance to get through the door. We are not his press secretaries. We need to present the NPOV balance of mainstream reporting here. "Fool me once..." Nobody, and I mean nobody -- friend or foe of Trump -- takes these anodyne interludes seriously. And it is highly alarming to see experienced editors doggedly inserting text that fails verification, that's sourced to a primary cherrypick, or that leads to SYNTH deviations from the RS narrative. SPECIFICOtalk19:02, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
Support the wording proposed by SPECIFICO above. It's a much better representation of what the source says. Obviously Trump was in no hurry to disavow racism, and only did so under considerable pressure.- MrX 🖋 19:32, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
cherry picking wording in lead
The wording "though this was settled in 1975 without admission of guilt" has been added to the housing discrimination information in the lead. I have removed it because it is cherry picking from the DoJ ruling:
" required the Trumps to place ads in newspapers saying that they welcomed black applicants. It said that the Trumps would familiarize themselves with the Fair Housing Act, which prohibited discrimination. So it also specifically said they don't admit wrongdoing, but they did have to take several measures that the Trumps had fought for two years not to take."
This detail is best included in the body of the article as it is no more important than the fact that they needed to place ads, etc. Gandydancer (talk) 20:05, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Details of the ruling are indeed undue for the lead, but the outcome of the lawsuit should be there. I suggest writing simply "In 1973, he was sued by the U.S. Department of Justice for housing discrimination against black renters, and settled the case." What do you think? — JFG20:12, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
The problem is, the statement as currently written and even the proposed change both would leave the reader with the impression that Trump had been found to have discriminated against black renters, which he wasn't. My suggestion is merely that 'alleged' be added before 'housing discrimination' - any reader wanting to find out what happened can then follow the link to the reference. Lin4671again (talk) 20:18, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Lin, actually I've worked on a lot of WP corporate articles in which lawsuits have been documented and I know from my work here that much more often than not the settlement includes the wording that the offender did not admit to the offense. It is really quite the norm. @ JFK, perhaps, let's see what others think. Gandydancer (talk) 20:27, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
It would also be more precise to say "In 1973, his company was sued…" Trump wasn't sued personally, and his father's practices seemed to be the main target of the plaintiffs. — JFG23:10, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Are you saying that you want the accusation included, and the settlement omitted? That's picking a side… Include both or exclude both. — JFG00:23, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
Let's be really, really clear - it is cherrypicking to not use intext attribution, to pick only from a particular POV and not include all views, and to editorialize. If the true purpose is not leave readers with "an impression", then provide both views and let them decide on their own. 22:55, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
We're not supposed to include every single statement from every RS - that's where editorial judgment comes into play - see WP:INTEXT. We summarize what RS say - if a source is not providing the various views, that in itself raises question. We should not lose sight of the fact that we're an encyclopedia, not WP:RGW or WP:SOAPBOX or WP:ADVOCACY. If editors will simply limit content to statements of fact rather than "opinions" (see WP:NEWSORG), we eliminate the "political" issues. Write the article based on statements of fact, and quote the opinions using in-text. 23:51, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
There are three possible outcomes to a lawsuit: win, lose, settle. When mentioning a resolved lawsuit in an article, the least we can do is document the outcome, without commentary. Otherwise, we'd run afoul of BLP. — JFG00:22, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
Warren's Native American claim
This article is discussing Trump's racial views and the subsection on his use of the term 'Pocahontas' was entirely focused on that until this final sentence has been added - "Warren denies that she ever claimed to be a minority to secure employment. FactCheck has reviewed her employment history and interviewed her past employers and has been unable to find anything that disputes her claim"
My point is simply that I do not feel this additional sentence is required. Prior to its addition the subsection started by explaining why Trump is choosing to mock Warren for claiming native American ancestry; it then provides the context - an 'honoring native Americans' event - at which he used the term; it then has several statements of people attacking Trump for his use of the phrase; it then ended with the White House response in which the White House Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders stated, "What most people find offensive is Senator Warren lying about her heritage to advance her career."
The newly added sentence is not relevant to whether Trump's use of the term was racist - it is nothing more than starting a discussion on the strength of, and possible motives behind, Warren's claims. Other editors may now add to this discussion. I don't think this is good for the article and would suggest the recently added sentence, that is not directly relevant to the subject of this article, should be deleted.
In the other sections where information in this article is a condensation of info from elsewhere we give a short summary of the information. In this case a charge was made, it was denied, and an outside source found no evidence that she had used her claim to gain employment preference. What with Trump/Sanders accusing her of lying you can't expect that the article does not need to not include the fact that no guilt was found. Gandydancer (talk) 23:10, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
Apply that same argument to almost everything as it applies to Trump - the claims are made, the accusations of lying are made, allegations of racism and collusion are made - nothing proven. If one person is not to be judged in the court of public opinion, why should anyone else? WP:BALANCE. 23:31, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
The section seems to be balanced overall regarding Warren, it should be left without major changes from the research I've been doing, IMO. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 00:47, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.
Oppose - This article is not about accusations; it's about Trump's 45 year documented history of racially-provocative remarks and racially-motivated actions. The word "accusations" is an expression of doubt in this context, and completely inappropriate for a neutral encyclopedia. We are obligated to adhere to WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:NOR. This is not creative writing where we try to turn the tables on reliable sources and try to make the so-called accusers look like the bad guys.- MrX 🖋 21:37, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
According to whom? Journalists who are biased against him? Meh. It is what it is - opinion, not fact. 22:10, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
Threaded discussion
Let's see, we just rejected one proposed move to water down the title. Then we just rejected misrepresenting the "shithole" smear of a couple dozen nations of colored folks as if it maybe didn't really really happen. And so now we are going to spend our time discussing whether to pretend the subject of this article is a bunch of "allegations" because -- who knows if any of this is true? SPECIFICOtalk21:22, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
Sadly, this has become the norm for Trump-related articles and I have to say, it as pathetic as it is transparent. The fomula seems to be first, try to delete the article entirely, claiming it's an attack page and that Misplaced Pages is not a newspaper. When that fails, try to pepper the article with weasel words, cherry-picked quotes, and equivocations. When that doesn't work, try to change the title so that instead of the article being about Trump's well-documented racism, it becomes and article about accusations in which Trump is portrayed as the victim. - MrX 🖋 21:46, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
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